Q writes on Pakistani source confirms US, Iran closing in on one-page memo to end war:
- Total Pakistani victory. If Pakistan pulls off the mediation, this will its greatest diplomatic victory ever. Lifting of Iranian sanctions will allow cheaper Iranian oil to flow directly to Pakistan, and the oil pipeline can be finally completed. Complete eradication of Indian influence from Iran is now achieved, and this will also eliminate any support to BLA from across the border.
Pakistan post Sindoor is on a winning streak. The mediation is real, the memo is real, and if it holds, the diplomatic ledger for the year goes firmly into Rawalpindi’s column. Iranian oil at the door, IP pipeline thinkable for the first time in fifteen years, BLA lifelines into Sistan throttled, Chabahar quietly demoted. A Victorious month?
But the question is whether she can conquer her demons. And the demons are not in the foreign ministry. They are in the drama studios.
Q again, on Pakistani dramas:
Women low-key love abusive behaviour from attractive men. Pretty much all women fantasy porn is about this. (What they don’t love is abusive aggressive behaviour from ugly or poor men) Since females are the primary target audience of these dramas, they tend to show this because that’s what the market demands. I would not read too much into this. What’s more concering was that foreign funded NGOs were trying implement anti-family messaging in the last 15 years – and that messaging has suddenly dried up after their funding dried up.
Fantasy is not preference. A woman reading a brooding-billionaire romance is not auditioning for one. To collapse the two is to flatten the female imagination into a market signal, which is exactly what the Pakistani dramas do and exactly why they rot the culture that consumes them.
Daughters of God
A theology that has no sovereign feminine cannot produce a culture that imagines one. What gets repressed at the level of the divine returns at the level of the drama. The serial heroine who is broken and remade by her tormentor is not a market accident. She is the only shape the feminine is permitted to take when the goddess has been cast out of the room.
This is why the Dharmic Subcontinent (Jambudvīpa) must centre Bharat Mata ki Jai and Vande Mataram. The unspeakably ancient Hindu civilisation kept its mothers as gods. The land is feminine, the river is feminine, the nation is feminine. Power runs through Shakti, not despite her. Where the goddess sits at the centre of the cosmology, the woman in the drama does not need to be broken to be loved. The civilisation has at least already imagined her Sovereign.
The Satanic Sirens
Islam at its founding made a different choice. Al-Lat, Al-Uzza and Al-Manat were the three goddesses of pre-Islamic Mecca, the Daughters of God. The Satanic Verses are the moment recorded by Tabari, Ibn Ishaq and Waqidi when their intercession was briefly admitted into the recitation and then revoked. The feminine divine was named, then exiled. The Kaaba kept the stone and lost the daughters.
This is the gap. A state can broker a US-Iran memo and still be civilisationally hollow. It can win the diplomatic round and lose the deeper one. The geopolitical ascent does not patch the cultural rot, because the rot is not a policy failure and it cannot be fixed by a ministry. It is the long downstream of an exile fourteen hundred years old, and it shows up in what a culture lets its women dream about, and what it lets its men say about those dreams in public.
Pakistan’s demons are not Indian. They are not American. They are her own daughters, cast out of the Kaaba and waiting at the door. The Satanic Verses are not so Satanic. Welcome back to Al-Lat, Al-Uzza and Al-Manat.
If the deal goes through, here is who won and who lost:
1) Strategic Iranian victory. The regime not just survived but gave a bloody nose to two nuclear powers attacking it. It now controls leverage over 25% of world’s energy market and has become a regional hegemon – a 4th global power as Professor Pape describes.
2) Strategic loss for Israel. Israel wanted regime change and they did not get that. Their second best option was to goad US to mount a ground invasion with American troops to change the regime and destroy the IRGC and they didn’t get that. Their third option was total annhilation of the Iranian state and the US was unwilling to do that for fear of reprucussions. So now they have to suck it up. Capturing few Lebanese villages where they are now being slowly bled by Hezbollah’s FPV drones daily is what they have to cope with.
3) Complete US humiliaton and and a massive loss. There is absoluetly nothing that the US got out of this war. Nothing. Unable to change the Iranian regime, unable to destroy underground Iranian missile cities or drone factories, they have expended a third of their stand off munitions and interceptors, which may take a decade to replace. They lost control of Hormuz and could not reopen it militarily. Their GCC bases got wrecked, and it is very doubtful whether they will come back online in the same previous capacity ever again. Their military superiority is shattered, their allies abandoned them or are questioning them and China looks set to take over Taiwan now.
The only pros for the US: their oil companies are making money, MIC will be given new contracts to refill depleted stockpiles. Apart from that, they sunk enough Iranian metal junk from the 60’s that Trump gets to claim victory in front of his retarded base.
4) Total Pakistani victory. If Pakistan pulls off the mediation, this will its greatest diplomatic victory ever. Lifting of Iranian sanctions will allow cheaper Iranian oil to flow directly to Pakistan, and the oil pipeline can be finally completed. Complete eradication of Indian influence from Iran is now achieved, and this will also eliminate any support to BLA from across the border.
5) The biggest loser of this war will be UAE. They lived in the biggest glass house in the region but their agressive and braindead foriegn policy has led them to ruin. They are now completely surrounded by hostile states. Their entire economy relies upon security and now that is thretaened. Capital is already fleeing. Viability of Dubai port is also in question now with Hormuz under Iranian influence. Both Iran and Saudis hate them. They are .. as they say … are facing a propsect of getting hosed without lube, unless they dethrone MBZ.
Baluchistan is definitely not Kashmir since PakIran will be essentially one unit?
–
That’s not how it works. Chabahar’s issues are due to US sanctions, not anything Pakistan has done.
Lifting of sanctions means Chabahar is back on track and India resumes buying Iranian oil.
You can’t have it both ways where there are conditional sanctions.
Iran is not going to give oil to just Pakistan out of goodwill. It will sell to anyone that has money.
And India has it and Pakistan doesn’t.
I laughed
You guys are in for a rude shock
Iran will continue to sell oil to you, just like they will be selling to Europe. But you already picked a side, you already made it clear who the Fatherland is. This has not gone unnoticed, and Pakistan being involved in mediation hints that they will strike their own deals with Iran w.r.t Indian influence in Sistan.
Yes. I don’t think Iran will forget that India clearly chose Israel or that India didn’t even protest the Supreme Leader’s murder.
Qureishi spammer, your comments have gone to spam (even the site knows your comments are crap).
I will just reply to your “geopolitical masterstrokes” with this image.
There is one golden rule in geopolitics – Islamabad always loses
I would re-think this analogy you have made with the Satanic Verses. Islam is an uncompromisingly monotheistic religion. Allah can have no children–whether daughters or sons. Neither does He have parents. This is not up for debate in Islam.
The debate about misogyny in Pakistani dramas continues to be a live one and there are people who espouse all kinds of positions–at either extreme and in the middle. I would place myself in the middle of this debate and not at either the “feminist” end or at Q’s end.
I think we have to understand that art reflects life. Also, these dramas are mainly appealing to the lowest common denominator. They are not “high art” in any way.
a very much slice of the world (nearly 30%) believe God had a Son who died on a Cross to redeem our sins..
Pir Worship (so prevalent in South Punjab – Sindh, the oldest Muslim parts of the Indian Subcontinent) are essentially holdovers from Hindu practises. they are not really Islamic
The Pir worship isn’t a South Asian thing; rather, it was a Central Asian, especially Timurid, thing. Sufism was a big deal in the Turkic Central Asian states, and there was a strong reverence for the Islamic founder’s family that often translated into reverence for the Sufi saints part of the same lineage. There was a thesis called: “Sufis, Saints, and Shrine: Piety in the Timurid Period, 1370-1507” by Rubina Kause Salikuddin that examines this very subject.
The Hindu influence on South Asian Islam was probably the Islamic yoga tradition and the bit where many Sufi saints took a yogic lifestyle, even to the point of dressing like a yogi. Sufis and Naths used to intermix with each that there were even Muslim Naths. A good (very ironic) example is Yogi Aditynath’s (Ajay Bisth) teacher/guru, Gul Mohammad Patha, who took on the title Gulabnath Bapu after initiation. Also, the Yogin romances, works like Padmavat, are a legacy of religious intermixing.
Fascinating wow
Qawwali is a “Hindu influence” on South Asian Islam. Sufis saw how Hindus responded to music and realized that music was an important tool for proselytization.
You won’t find anything like it elsewhere in the Muslim world.
Sufism was also an influence on the Bhakti Movement (and vice versa). Bhagat Kabir was very much a part of that movement.
I’ve written about this in detail here:
https://kabiraltaf.substack.com/p/kabir-oral-traditions-in-the-indian
Thanks for your mention of proselytization.
This is the Hindu right wing accusation. The sufis were at times pretty violent.
The liberal gang always advocates Sufis as someone deeply involved with themselves and swirll, when they have time.
I don’t think sufis were violent. At least I haven’t seen the evidence for that.
I was referring to peaceful proselytization. People like Amir Khusrao realized that music was an integral part of Hinduism and used it to bring people to Allah. This led to the development of Qawwali.
The point is that Qawwali doesn’t have an equivalent elsewhere in the Muslim world–at least not that I’m aware of.
Well, Muslims in India are not having state power for more than 150 years. How many Hindus have become Muslim by listening to qawwalis? 100?
So these Sufis were essentially agents of state power, in a different manner.
Sufis played a major role in converting people to Islam.
Qawwali played a significant role in that.
That itself is a western intervention that created this kind of artifical distinction..
Sufis were muslims but just spiritual muslims who depending on the person would use violence or not.
Honestly, a lot of things that can be said about one muslim order or group cannot be said about other. Both the left and right fall into the trap of essentialization.
I think fb was referring to the general trope of Sufis being the Islamic equivalent of Vedantin Bhakts who only cared about getting closer to god using music etc. That itself is an essentialization just like the Western view that Buddhist states and societies are nothing but peaceful and accommodating. Some readjustment of that trope for Sufis is very much required.
Pir worship has nothing to do with South Asian Hinduism. It’s quite common throughout the MiddleEast and Central Asia. Sufi Islam (which is like 80% of Muslim converts) are pretty high on this.
You can’t really compare Christianity and Islam. Muslims consider the Holy Trinity to be insufficiently monotheistic. Christ is God’s son but he’s also God in human form. So it’s a bit confusing.
Remember that I used to attend church every Sunday when I sang with the National Cathedral so I’m quite familiar with the Holy Trinity 🙂
In Surah Al-Iklhas the Quran clearly states “He has never had offspring, nor was He born” Muslims believe that the Quran is the word of God. So Islam is uncompromisingly monotheistic.
The point is that I see where you are going with your analogy about the Satanic Verses but believing Muslims will find it actually offensive.
Pir worship doesn’t involve worshiping an entity other than Allah. People pray to the saint to intercede with Allah. Of course, reform movements like Wahabbism do think that worship of Sufi saints is not strictly Islamic. That’s their point of view.
What Q wrote was pretty offensive tbh
I keep saying I don’t agree with him.
We are all offended by different things. His views don’t cross my red lines since they were not a personal attack on me nor were they anti-Pakistan. Feminism is not the hill I’m going to die on. I really don’t care that much.
My mother is an educated woman. She’s a medical doctor who has practiced medicine in the US. Even she would agree the primary duty of a woman is to be a good wife and mother. That’s a pretty normal view in Pakistan (even perhaps across South Asia).
I do think there was not really a need to bring up the Satanic Verses. You know how problematic this is. It got a whole fatwa against Rushdie.
Not going to belabor this point further but even I find this concept of “daughters of God” distasteful and I’m not all that religious.
Let us Pray & Reflecf on it..
//Pir Worship (so prevalent in South Punjab – Sindh, the oldest Muslim parts of the Indian Subcontinent) are essentially holdovers from Hindu practises. they are not really Islamic_//
I used to think this as well until I realised that Turkic countries not Arab countries are where most muskim convertor came from.
This is a Turkish culture holdover from their own shamanic tradition that assimilated in India soil.
Not sure if this can be a generalized assertion though. Many communities in India still practice ancestor worship even though they may nominally be any religion. I’d be surprised if communities like Jats that have still have some form of ancestor worship gave up on that overnight upon conversion. It could be that it may have transformed in to pir worship.
But pirs are not ancestors of people. They are people with high spirituality who have the power to intercede on your behalf with God. Like saints in the catholic church but the pir has actual power as well like with shamanic practise.
Yes, Catholic saints are the correct comparison.
+1
Sufi Pir reverence is found all across the Muslim world and isn’t unique to south Asia and neither is it a holdover from Hinduism. Pir culture comes from Khorasani/Turani influence, most of the Sufi orders in the subcontinent originate from Khorasan/central Asia as do a lot of the customs associated with it. Interestingly Pir culture is mostly prevalent in the Hanafi belt of south Asia – Pakistan, North India, Deccan and Bengal while not as common in the Shafii belt – Deep South India, Maldives and Sri Lanka where the Shafii school was spread by Arab traders. The Hanafi madhab predominant in the northern subcontinent is due to the Turko-Persians originates from central Asia – established by Abu Hanifa, a Tajik Islamic scholar. The differences in Islamic practices also varies considerably between the two madhabs and that’s why Islamicate culture in two halves is quite difference.
Also Pir’s aren’t worshiped in Pakistan, the Pir-Mureed relation is more of a student-teacher/ustadh dynamic. I have pirs on a segment of my extended family and they certainly are not worshiped, that would be considered shirk.
where is Dhurandhar?
Aa gaya mein
Phew –
Fantasy is subconscious preference, the guiding light of a person from within.
People will often refuse to admit their fantasies but when presented with unfettered opportunity, they will act upon them.
If that’s what awakens her sexually, why deny it? Never seen a man denying that watching naked female form is sexually arousing for him. Women are allowed to deny what they find arousing, because society judges them harshly if they accept it. But society judges them harshly because what they find arousing is the eventual death of society. We are already seeing this play out today, it’s undeniable.
There is no evidence that reducing female agency produces cultural rot. In fact, all evidence points to the contrary. Every civilization that ascends, ascends due to the masculine. The desire for conquest, consildation, domination, and creation is a masculine trait, and every empire, every civilization and every nation state today was formed because of it.
The female maintains the bond of society of society once the society is established, to nurture life and to blunt the excess of the masculine. However the femninine is unable to make the hard decisions, the feminine is indecisive, and therefore unable to weild power successfully.
There does not mean that there are no exceptions, there are many men with feminine frames and females with masculine frames. But since we are talking generally, what I said above holds true in that sense.
Bro i say this with full sincerity please read what actual feminists and critics of these ideas say, and by read I mean read long form articles and the like, the views you are presenting are rather shallow, very convenient and honestly frightening in the way it sees women
This is what you are defending by monkey balancing.
Check out the paradox of intolerance.
there is no need to “shame” Calvin, who is a very intelligent commentator.
Q is also providing context; BB you shouldn’t always try to “point score.”
let everyone have their perspectives.. Dhurundhar is super-ptatriarchical after all (barely any female characters) so patriarchy always evolves.
Dhurandhar might not pass the Bechdel test but there is absolutely nothing misogynistic in the movie.
In fact a lot of women loved the fact that these hardened killers were very soft with the women in their life.
I am not defending anything, he can have rather ignorant views and India can have its own problems, emanating from the worldwide trend of human males getting anxious over losing power and having to compete with women for the same resources.
While the commentators on this site may not espouse manosphere views, many others throughout the internet, inlcuding substantial non muslims and non pakistanis also speak the same way he does.
//This is why the Dharmic Subcontinent (Jambudvīpa) must centre Bharat Mata ki Jai and Vande Mataram. The unspeakably ancient Hindu civilisation kept its mothers as gods. The land is feminine, the river is feminine, the nation is feminine. Power runs through Shakti, not despite her. Where the goddess sits at the centre of the cosmology, the woman in the drama does not need to be broken to be loved. The civilisation has at least already imagined her Sovereign.//
I may get pushback from others here and even snide remarks on my birth religion influencing my viewpoints but I think this needs to be said
Believing or worshipping female deity’s does not do do anything to prevent patriarchy and misogyny from stemming. Even Greece had female deities and still thought of women as second class citizens and fundamentally deformed.
In India, barring exceptions women were not educated, were seen as extensions of their sons, husband’s, or father’s at different points in life and institution like the caste system or jati system could only come up by restricting the autonomy of women.
We cant really claim that a society where rape is blamed on women, where it is seen as a legitimate way to get back at other communities and until the last century did not seriously invest in their education, barring exceptions, respects women more thsn a society with no female deities.
Furthermore India also has its own manosphere and incels who say the exact same thing as what Q is saying. Have a look at thr below to see that the view Q espouses come less from his Islamic background and more from the fact that men all over the world are anxious about losing power and blaming women is an easy way out than resolving issues within themselves.
https://www.thenewsminute.com/topic/the-indian-manosphere
If deification obscures such basic things then we need to wonder if it has any social value since I dont see any difference between many societies in their treatment of women.
Well said!
I also think that the thing about “Bharat Mata ki Jai” and “Vande Mataram” is not a particularly good take.
A one-to-one comparison would be between Pakistani and Indian dramas. Admittedly, I haven’t watched Indian soaps for more than a decade, but when I used to watch them they were full of crying women– not that dissimilar from Pakistani dramas. I have already mentioned “Maryada: Lekin Kab Tak”. Others were “Yeh Rishta Kya Kehlata Hai” and “Sapna Babul Ki Bidaai”.
I don’t really want to get into a discussion of Hinduism but even the “Ramayana” has the episode of the agni pariksha where Sita is accused of being unfaithful to Rama with Ravana. In a modern context, this would be seen as blaming the victim of sexual assault.
I agree that Q’s views don’t necessarily have much to do with Islam but are just the views of socially conservative men.
To be clear, I’m not a “feminist”. My views probably differ from Q’s because I grew up in the West. I am center-left. I believe that individuals (whatever their gender) have the right to do what they want in most cases. But if one is speaking in the Pakistani context, the normative belief is that a woman’s primary job is to be a wife and mother. Similarly, it is a man’s job to provide for his wife and children.
These are quite normal views and not necessarily problematic or offensive.
lovely comment
Yes, I always learn a lot from Calvin’s comments.
I would add that we see differences in the treatment of women in the secular West as compared to the developing world (or the “Global South” as I think we are supposed to call it these days). This is–in large part– due to feminism.
For example, marital rape is not a crime in India (at least it wasn’t last time I checked). The society believes that merely by virtue of being a man’s wife, she is obligated to sleep with him on demand. Even in the UK, marital rape was only criminalized as late as 1991.
I referred to this in my review of John Galsworthy’s “The Forsyte Saga” in which marital rape is a crucial part of the plot:
https://kabiraltaf.substack.com/p/review-the-forsyte-saga-by-john-galsworthy
You are again doing bad faith arguments and “sem2sem” when it literally isn’t.
India is no Scandinavia regarding women but to deny it is far more liberal compared to Pakistan regarding gender is just being purposely obtuse. And the gap is growing.
There might be a manosphere in India but they consist of kids on reddit not forty year old adults living in the diaspora commenting nonsense on this site which has nothing to do with the manosphere.
No Indians on this site even espouses anything like that regarding gender (or other right wing positions the Crescentiate adopt including on religion and the military).
Can we please stop comparing ourself with Pakistan? Pakistan being worse for various reasons than parts of India in the south or east does not mean that there is no misogyny
My main point was simply that worshipping female deities does not mean a society wont be misogynistic, patriarchal or manosphere ideas that demean women wont find an audience.
//There might be a manosphere in India but they consist of kids on reddit not forty year old adults living in the diaspora commenting nonsense on this site which has nothing to do with the manosphere.//
Whatever Q says is directly from the manosphere literally verbatim.
Again monkey balancing.
It is not just “south” and “east” India which is better but also “north” and “west” (which you might not be mentioning for political reasons).
Pakistan is closer to Afghanistan than India.
https://globaldatalab.org/shdi/maps/
Why is Kashmir the same more green that UP, and Bihar the same color as Pakistani Punjab?
Again, I am not comparing to Pakistan just pointing out the misogyny and patriarchy within the country known as India is independent of the gender of deities worshipped, your coming from this in a completely different argument.
Bihar is not the same color as Pakistani Punjab though. Bihar is light green. Pakistani Punjab is yellow.
Kashmir is still Indian.
I am not talking about religion but about India-Pakistan comparisons.
I guess I seem to be having issues distingushing similar shades.
And the point is you don’t have Indian manosphere participants here, in a forum which has nothing to do with the manosphere.
Toxic masculinity is directly proportional to the leeway given by the scripture. So, yes all religions are patriarchal and anti-women. But the degree vastly differs and manifests as such.
To generalize and claim that it is only human nature obfuscates the role religion plays in misogyny perfectly exemplified by Q here.
+1
Except for blasphemy driven crimes, the same kind of crimes happen throughout north of the subcontinent.
Furthermore,both India and Pakistan have similar levels of female participation in university level at close to 48%
Women make up 15.3% of all registered advocates in india and 17% in pakistan
Women make up 5% of the bureaucracy, and 2% of the police in pakistan and but this number is 25% of the bureaucracy but 8% in police.
68% of women in pakistan are in agriculture as labour while 64% of women in india are doing in India.
There is no great difference due to religions here.
Any source for those numbers?
I put them in ChatGPT and there is some very selective disingenuous cherry picking being done here.
Female share of total higher education enrollment
India ~48–49%
Pakistan ~47–50% in many urban universities, but lower nationally overall
So they aren’t the same. One is overall, the other is in “many urban” universities.
Same with the advocate figure where you chose the lower bound for the India estimate and the upper bound for the Pakistani estimate.
Not to mention these are numbers across all age groups. For example, on the registered advocates – you stay registered unless you die or surrender your license so the 15% is across all advocates in India and that is a very large cohort. Females made up 10% of this number in 2010 and that changed to 15% by 2020 on the large base of all registered advocates. I’d wager this number will exceed 25% by the end of this decade as the older generation dies out more equitable cohorts join the bar. The same probably applies to other numbers as well.
I am not going to write a dissertation for a comment.
The argument being made that because Islam is patriarchal, there is more patriarchy in places dominated by Islam than India.
I merely pointed that in higher education enrollment, India and Pakistan are very close to each other. You can see the source for that herre.
52% enrolment ratio of female students in country’s universities: Chairman HEC
Can you tell me the source that says only urban universities have 52% enrollment?
The other statistics I managed to find show more of the same.
If you do – become an Author 🙂
There is a MASSIVE difference in female employment in urban India vs Pakistan. And by urban I mean even the n-tier small towns like Rajkot or Indore.
Yes, issues shouldn’t be glossed over in India, and taking victory laps over being better than Pakistan is quite silly. But by the same token, clubbing India with Pakistan on such issues is also equally silly.
Tbh, urban India has much, much, much more opportunities that Pakistan, they dont have their own bangalores, hyderabad, noida, mumbai, pune and the like.
It is kind of an unfair comparison, hence why I specially chose things that are present in equivalent numbers and where if there was more restrictions imposed by patriarchy we would see some differences.
unfair yes, because its extremely lopsided in India’s favor. Hence pontificating silliness from a Larping Center-Lefter sounds even more hilariously nonsensical.
Its a classic RW Pakistani dodge – attack India even on issues such as gender equality in society, even when their own society is orders of magnitude worse. Its, to be blunt, intellectual dishonesty.
The irony of your comment doesn’t dawn on you.
And whose fault is this? 😂
Reminds me of the logic of Pakistani cricket fans:
India defeat us at cricket because they have more money and can afford to have a better system/infrastructure. Otherwise we are naturally more talented.
“For my money, Taufeeq Umar is moooar tailluntted than Sachin Tendulkar” – Senior Pakistani ex-cricketer on Pakistani TV a few years back.
Cope is what it is. Reminds me of Pervez Darudi Musharraf’s cope claiming Paaakstani speak better Inglis than Indians.
Not a fan of Musharraf but he’s objectively correct, not that it matters if someone doesn’t speak English well.
He isn’t.
Do you have actual statistics, objective metrics or just random anecdotal experiences?
Like I said, vibes plus inshallah.
Let me give you an objective metric.
Indian authors have won the prestigious Booker prize, including ones born and raised here. Many get constantly shortlisted. Far fewer Pakistanis have been shortlisted and no one has won.
Now to write a book in English and have it win competing against native English speakers is a reasonable proxy for English language proficiency.
Why don’t you give me a similar “objective” metric regarding Pakistani’s better Inglis?
And no, comparing your American born proficiency with some guy who came from an Indian village doesn’t count.
You usually make some reasonable comments but this is both ignorant and below the belt. I guess you have to prove your patriotism. Pakistan has major cities like Karachi, Lahore and Islamabad that are just as good if not better than each of the cities you listed. Insinuating Pakistanis are a bunch of cavemen and that we have no cities is the type of stuff you hear from wignats.
In terms of publicly visible women employment, cavemen may be harsh, but not far from the facts.
Its not about ‘proving patriotism’ – the blunt harsh reality is that women in Pakistan are not safe to work in customer facing environments, like shop sales etc. Even in selling items to women. Are you claiming this isn’t the case?
That’s such an absurd claim that it doesn’t even deserve to be addressed but i’ll do it anyways. Women are free to work in Pakistan and female participation rates are increasing every year in Pakistan as for sales, that’s actually a very female dominant occupation. Pakistani women work in all kinds of fields from medicine to teaching to television to law enforcement. We are a traditional society and do believe in tradcon roles like men being the breadwinners, it’s ingrained in our creed – men must be providers while women can work and keep all their money although its preferred to be a homemaker. We’re a traditional society a lot like the bible belt and large parts of America.
Another meninist after Q lol. Are all “phoren” Pakistanis meninists?
Unlike Q, you were not even born there or live there.
I’m not a menninist or whatever that entails. I’m just a somewhat traditional Pakistani-American Muslim as are a lot of people. My views are the majority among my peers – both white, black, brown, muslim and christian. This is not the exception. Peak millennial woke liberalism has faded away.
Again, anecdotal experience.
Secondly, untrue.
Karachi, Lahore, Islamabad might be better than the rest of Pakistan and Pakistanis might not be “cavemen” but in no way, shape or form are those cities “better” or even “as good as” the Indian ones.
Might be better than Multan, Faisalabad, Larkana etc but the Indian cities lol.
Karachi, Lahore, Islamabad COMBINED have a smaller metro network than Nagpur, in terms of lines, stations, length. And mind you, Nagpur is not even a state capital and is the 3rd biggest city in its state.
A mass transit system isn’t the only measure of development. That can and will be eventually obtained over time with funding. Using that metric, several mid sized European cities would beat major American metro areas but that simply isn’t true when weighing other factors. I’ve seen livestreams and walking tours of Indian cities and they didn’t look much better than Pakistani cities and actually not very developed compared to Islamabad. One city in particular called Hyderabad in India, was probably the least nice of the bunch – there’s this Indian-American guy that goes live walking all around hyderabad and it looks very unkempt and undeveloped – Karachi in comparison looks a lot nicer and Lahore just blows it out the water. This is just based off what I’ve seen from the livestreams.
Yes, but it is still a measure of development. And a far better one than “vlogs” on the internet.
When you do and surpass the Indian cities, then make that comment.
Pakistani cities don’t have those “other” factors though which the Americans have. American cities compensate for poorer transit systems vis a vis Europe with bigger economies, opportunities, industries. The same cannot be said for Pakistani cities vis a vis Indian. Feel free to tell me those factors if you find any (You won’t).
Islamabad is a planned city which basically exists as a government town. It’s counterpart is Chandigarh, another recently made city. Comparing Islamabad with poorer parts of bigger Indian cities is disingenuous. Those cities have nicer parts far bigger and more prosperous than Islamabad. Rawalpindi would be the equivalent for the “not very developed parts”.
Exactly. I can make a livestream with the nicest poshest parts of Indian cities and poorest parts of American cities but inferring a narrative from these “livestreams” would be incorrect.
Actual data exists. Statistics too.
Hyderabad is the most advanced and richest of the three cities (Karachi, Lahore included).
Hyderabad is a major global corporate hub and houses multinational tech and pharma firms (both Indian and international).
Hyderabad has 18 billionaires. Pakistan has zero. No “undocumented economy” nonsense please. This is according to the Hurun Global list.
Again, I can keep making many points but I’ll just post the ChatGPT summary (As always if you can find an AI summary which supports your argument, you are free to post it there).
Not denying that scripture plays a role, but take the example of , say, Javanese culture vs Haryana culture. I’m not an expert on either, but at a glance the Javanese seem to have less toxic masculinity.
Well said!
Category error. Religious/scriptural influence cannot be compared across cultural milieu. A more appropriate comparison would be a Mewati Muslim v a Haryanvi Hindu, a Punjabi Muslim v. Punjabi Sikh/Hindu, Javanese Muslim v Balinese Hindu. Don’t think I need to call out the differences there.
Well said!
The Punjabi or Mewati Muslim is not committing mass female infanticide, same cannot be said of the Punjabi or Haryanvi Hindu or Sikh.
Perhaps scripture is repsonsible:
Quranic verses
17:31,
6:151
16:58-59
81:8-9
This is very true
Well said!
+1
Exactly. This monkey balancing Calvin engages in is not helpful in addressing real issues. This is not very different from the Congress track post Independence where reform was aggressively pushed down Hindu throats (rightly so IMO) but Muslims were allowed to indulge their worst regressive tendencies. That’s how we reached today where a reactionary party that pays lip service to real Hindu concerns is branded as a Right Wing Hindu Nationalist party for attempting some of the same political goals like Congress at Independence for e.g. UCC.
It is also intellectually dishonest to not recognize that the most prominent personalities in the red pill/manosphere are – either Muslims, pretending to be Muslims, or have openly shown admiration of Islam as the most “based religion” that is the last bastion of defence against wokeism. Andrew Tate, Sneako, Mohd. Hijab, Daniel Haqiqatjou, Myron Gaines are just the first hit on a google search. I’ll wait till Calvin can find 5 equivalent names from the Hindu manosphere.
While this is a topic for another day, this sort of false equivalence drawn between Hindu conservatism and hard Islam is precisely why Western liberals treat Hindus as if they’re Taliban while the Far Right makes common cause with red pill Islamists to dehumanize Indians. Horseshoe theory in real life.
The Congress problem is that it allowed regional satraps and dominant communities to do whatever they wanted within their areas of influence, whatever their religion.
Furthermore, muslims did not create the manosphere, it is reactionary white people who want to blame women for their own problems who did so, I was merely pointing that unlike what XTM was saying worshipping female deities did not prevent a manosphere from coming up amongst non muslims in India, I dont know why exactly everytime that similar cultural values are brought up and substantiated with similar individual outcomes, you treat it as whitewashing.
What is this reluctance to engage with culture being the dominant driving force behind even the literalist and fundamentalist interpreatation, not some intrinsic quality that does not exist seperate from a person interpreting with influence from their own background.
Agree completely!
While I agreed to leave out this discussion in the other thread but since XTM literally made a post about my other post so I had to reply
I think most of you guys are heavily influenced by Western culture, so much inculcated in it that you cannot even see where all your arguments and view points originate from.
This includes Calvin who appears to see things from a Marxist viewpoint – which in my opinion is somehwat insightful but mostly incorrect – or BB and Nivdeta who are trying to blame Islam – which is I think is also incorrect in my context since I don’t even follow Islam closely.
The fact of the matter is that most societies until just recently were all partirachies, where whatever I have said was the normal mainstream opinion – not some fringe part of the internet labelled as ‘the manosphere’, while almost all the opinions many of you hold are post modern inventions of Western thought. I would not hesitate in admitting that many of my own views are very western influenced which could be a function of the language I most read in (English).
100 years ago, scripture or no scripture, people were by and large patrirachical. As Ibn Khaldun notes, women had no freedom in sedantary societies, and slightly more in nomadic ones.
Some of the most regressive practises against women were practised in India with no scirptural sanction but just cultural. Even today Jatts in Haryana have committed so much female infanticide that they are now short of women and brothers have resorted to sharing a single wife.
The simple fact is that post modern western culture has conqeured most places on Earth especially after the widespread adoption of the internet. Most people have internalized it and espouse this cuture without even knowing, each person trying to prove a greater adherent of it than the next one.
The last bastion of cultural resistance comes from Islam.
Perhaps this is truly based on scripture but perhaps it is something else, hard to say.
resistance of what; equity?
Resistance to western thought – both modern and post modern.
Western countries have perpetuated their utopian ideals on others in sneaky ways and post modernism is just one of those sneaky ways.
perhaps; but we don’t necessarily agree with Empire.
but Equity (not necessarily Equality) is a core belief of ours.
I do agree with somewhat with equity (or equality) borne out of a sense of justice.
Justice is a core belief of every civilization and law givers have been celebrated in every one of them.
And yet this paragon of Islam resides on Toronto – hotbed of “diseases” like feminism, gender transition, OnlyFans, Central African immigration.
don’t cross the line BB, that was a VERY offensive sentence, which we have removed for your sec. it will be 50 comment violation and 10 day ban.
do not go personal with the Commentariat, whatever their views maybe. for instance we don’t like Q’s poverty food line, it offends us. we have asked you to respond there but there is no need to go personal.
it is simply sufficient to make a comment or post about how Indian food has conquered the world and is High Cuisine (it only competes with Chinese food for best in the world) while Pakistani food is, at best, niche cuisine off working class areas.
even Humza was never so indiscriminate
I believe there shouldn’t really be any allowances/safeguards for bigots. The paradox of tolerance if you will.
But if you wish it so, then so it shall be.
You are wrong; next time you write a line like that we shall respond appropriately.
Also be careful in casting stones from glass homes. Bigotry, alas, is a universal human condition ..
I have always accepted the nature of my glass home.
But I also accept it is far stronger glass than the ones residing in far more brittle glass homes who like to equate the two.
yes but what if everyone worked together to see past the global Imperial structure like Iran has done..
this was not a Masterstroke by India, to essentially turn on an old ally in such a spectacular way.
They are still allies. And any misgivings will be dealt with peacefully because of what India can offer.
Like it did with Afghanistan and Bangladesh – other geopolitical “masterstokes”.
that’s not how friendship works..
India could have easily brokered Pakistan’s deal..
Yeah, naah.
Getting involved in the Drumpf-IRGC … “negotiations” would require submission to Drumpf’s whims, why should India proffer that up – in return for what exactly? Some nebulous potential of future Iranian goodwill?
Pakistan’s….involvement in the West Asia negotiations is not that of a neutral third party, which yes, India could have potentially done. The role mandates a bending of the knee to Drumpf – a price Pakistani elites are all too willing to pay – and to be fair, rightly so since not just the elites but potentially the Pakistani nation-state can extract some benefit from performing this role. India has not much to gain, and a lot more to lose, not to mention, not much desperate need to inject itself into the West Asia conflict.
For all the ‘tom-tomming’ of Iranian purported ‘friendship’ towards India, the historical record of Independent India’s relations with Iran are not exactly decorated with Iranian goodwill gestures – both before and after the 1979 revolution.
The last time we discussed this question, you indicated you’ll post about it, but I don’t think I’ve seen it?
There are no “friends” in geopolitics, just interests. And it is in the mutual interest of both India and Iran to work together as they don’t really conflict on anything.
As far as the deal, there is no point in getting into this quagmire at this point. Pakistan has already irked UAE and they were a major source of investment/remittances for them.
India has good relations with all of the GCC, Iran and Israel and shouldn’t jeopardize any of it.
India has given Iranian ships refuge in their docks as well as arranged funds. That should be the extent of cooperation at this point.
what’s in it for India to even attempt such involvement?
Better to maintain distance from the chaotic hot mess thats the West Asia war, let things settle.
Best case if you ask me, is that a post-conflict, hopefully post-RGC Iran and India can quickly move to build a robust bilateral relationship built on energy and other trade.
Until then, let Pakistan LARP away on the world stage, its fine.
post-IRGC Iran? how?
That is for Iranians to figure out and execute. As Omar Saab likes to say these days…. “Strive on with diligence”. 🙂
I don’t live in Toronto. This is just slander at this point
Suburbs then.
Even your scriptural interpreations come as a result of western influence or to be more precise, all revivalist strands at least in South Asia come from desire to go back to a golden age before westernization or other influences when you were dominant. It is a bad response to a real problem whose effects have still not been unpacked.
This whole notion of Islam as a resistance is a product of the above revivalist thinking, not something intrinsic to Islam, and furthermore all muslim majority countries, at least the rich ones in the gulf are declining in population, so is Pakistan I have been led to believe, all of them are encouraging greater enrollment of women, all of them are preparing women to enter the workforce, and even if it may not go as far as it does with say the west or even India, it is still going on.
The only exception to this is Afghanistan which is putting all that you say into practise, I dont think that looking at that country you can say any great cultural revival is happening.
It depends on what revivalist strand you are talking about. Aligarh movement is definitely western inspired (it created Pakistan) and does not harken to go back to 1400 years ago.
Deobandi movement is a reactionary movement to perceived western dominance, so it’s anti western.
While Barelvism is just an expression of traditional conservative South Asian Islam, and came about as an anti-modern movement seeking to protect from attacks from other Islamic revivalist and western thought.
You will note that all three still resist Western dominance, and aim to preserve Islamic traditions so I am pretty confident in saying that Islam in South Asia continues to resist western ingress.
And then we have Shia Islam which was always anti-West and after 1979 now has state power backing anti Western movement. You will see all Iranian leaders very well versed in Western thought but being confident in their own religion and culture.
Pakistan’s TFR has flatted out at 3.25 which is still very healthy. It appears that other Muslim countries outside of Pakistan, Afghanistan, some CARs and African countries are declining in tandem with the West w.r.t TFR.. I do think that higher female education coupled with the welfare state is to blame for this.
At last you have admitted Pakistan’s true peers instead of conflating Pakistan with the likes of Saudi, Turkey, Iran etc. 😂
That is what I mean, all the major revivalist movements in Islam, from where this patriarchal viewpoints, being espoused are coming from, are mirrors to westernization, it is not intrinsic but a choice to oppose for the sake of opposing. I dont think being reactionary for the sake of being reactionary is something to be proud of. It is also not traditional Islamic culture that they are preserving, given their opposition to mazars, expunging of syncretic practises and lack of flexibility.
And why exactly is having a large population in a country with limited resouces and constrained budgets a good thing?
how was Shia Islam “always” anti-west? Does history somehow begin with the last handful of decades?
Shia Islam is anti-authoritarian, anti-colonial and by extension anti western. It’s weird because the hub of Shiasm today is an authoritarian regime (Iran) but historically Shias have been denied power since the beginning of Islam and them commemorating Karbala every year in month long ceremonies just cements that feeling into their chidlren from an early age.
This is why leftism appeals to them as it is considered an advocacy of the weak and the oppressed, this is why Iran supports Palestinian and other causes including Kashmir despite it harming their national interest because they have to stay somewhat true to their revolutionary ideal. In Pakistan, some of the biggest anti west commies and left wingers were Shias or crypto-Shias, and I would hazard a guess that they are over represented in leftist circles in India too.
Modern Shia philosophy is nicely encapsulated by Ali Shariati’s works
Also I have never read, nor plan to read in the near future, any books on Marxism, my views on how religion are from my own reading of ethnography of different groups and a religious studies based approach that tries its best to avoid essentialism and seeing what in a society can sustain and maintain belief.
This has nothing to do with South Asia, but since we are discussing gender and sexuality, I thought I’d share this here:
“Oscar Wilde’s The Picture of Dorian Gray: The Controversy around the novel’s depiction of homoeroticism”
https://kabiraltaf.substack.com/p/oscar-wildes-the-picture-of-dorian
“TN Gov should’ve asked Vijay to form govt; SIR explains scale of BJP victory in Bengal”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nbg5GPMefs
[…] Open Thread: Pakistan’s Demons are The Daughters of God – Brown Pundits on Indians and Pakistani dramas […]
BB: “No Indians on this site even espouses anything like that regarding gender (or other right wing positions the Crescentiate adopt including on religion and the military).”
I’ve said many times now that I don’t agree with Q’s position on feminism. I personally would never use a phrase like “the poison of feminism”. But Q is entitled to his opinions.
As for the Indians on this site not adopting right-wing positions, this is factually incorrect. We have had people here defending the construction of a Ram Temple where Babri used to be. There are numerous other examples of anti-Muslim comments if one only goes back and looks.
I think we have to face the fact that (with some honorable exceptions) BP right now mostly features right-wing Indians and right-wing Pakistanis.
So let’s not pretend that the Indians are super left wing. Calvin seems like the only commenter here who I would say is on the left.
Yeah because an apologia for traditional gender roles surely makes your “Left” wing. Even a Centre-Right politician in India won’t defend that claim today. You clearly do not have any understanding of Indian society or politics.
I have mentioned here how you cannot be a leftist if you support the desecration of democracy or minorities having lesser rights.
https://www.brownpundits.com/2026/05/05/you-cannot-be-a-leftist-if-you-support-fundamentally-illiberal-positions/
How many times do I have to say that I don’t agree with Q?
I grew up in the West. I believe in the right of individuals of whatever gender to do whatever they want.
As for India: marital rape is still not criminalized.
“India refuses to criminalise marital rape. This new series shines a light on it”
By Geeta Pandey
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cgqkl2kqkxzo
I literally found this with 10 seconds of Googling.
I rest my case.
But if one is speaking in the Pakistani context, the normative belief is that a woman’s primary job is to be a wife and mother. Similarly, it is a man’s job to provide for his wife and children.
These are quite normal views and not necessarily problematic or offensive.
Said no Leftist worth their salt ever.
Recognizing reality doesn’t necessarily mean endorsing it.
My mother is an educated woman. She’s practiced medicine in the US. Still she recognizes that men and women are biologically different. During prime child-bearing years a woman must be protected so she can take care of her and her baby’s health. It is the man’s job to offer this protection.
This is simply biological reality.
If some women choose not to marry or not to have children, more power to them. However, they will certainly be judged in Pakistan since most people don’t share these values.
And I notice you have no counter to the fact that marital rape is not a crime in India?
For those bringing up marital rape, marital rape is also not a crime in Pakistan so the “sem2sem” doesn’t really work here.
The Pakistani comparison focuses on a negative about India (which also exists in Pakistan which is conveniently ignored) but not positives in India which are not present in Pakistan (which are many).
For example:
Homosexuality is not a crime in India. It is in Pakistan.
The point (which you have missed as usual) is that India is not the UK. Marital rape is a very serious problem. Why not focus on addressing it rather than celebrating that you are better than Pakistan?
I am on record as acknowledging that India has decriminalized Section 377 which cannot happen in Pakistan.
man, 5 hours and no whinge about ‘passive aggressive’ yet? That’s gotta be a record. 🙂
Satanic Verses is a masterpiece. That entire run from Midnight’s Children to The Moor’s Last Sigh is. Shame is the other book in that sequence. All four Booker shortlisted with Midnight’s winning (plus also won subsequent “Best of Booker” type awards).
Because most Muslims did not read Satanic Verses, they didn’t actually read the real offensive part which most people don’t even know of.
I actually agree with you on this. Rushdie is a genius.
And btw, I’ve actually read The Satanic Verses. I’ve read almost every novel Rushdie has written.
I highly recommend V.S. Naipaul’s Among the Believers and Beyond Belief. This may be my personal preference but that man could see things in plain sight most don’t have the courage or imagination to.
One of the best ever.
India is lucky to have such a rich literary tradition – both in the homeland and diaspora.
Indian and Indian origin authors have won every literary award worth its salt – Booker, Pulitzer, Noble (Tagore apart from Naipaul).
No other subcontinental country can compare.
People from these countries might give a few examples of “shortlisted” novels but deep down even they know it is not same as “won” and no amount of denial will change those “facts”.
‘Gobi Tamatar’ and ‘Mattar waley chawal’ is the main course for foreign diplomats guests in India.
This is the menu:
https://x.com/sidhant/status/2052065246425317381
Diplomats be like:
looks amazing to me
Error 404: Protein not found. You know, the ingredient in food that builds the building blocks of life: the human cell.
This is just poverty food masquerading as culture.
This should be a side dish at best, not a main course. No one is feeling full after eating that
poverty food feels offensive; we’ll wait for Humza to Dhurundhar this..
After lifetime of eating poverty food, Dhurandar gets tears of happiness eating beef biryani for the first time
Speak for yourself.
India isn’t the religious backwater that is Pakistan. I enjoy beef which is available in plenty all over India.
I also love pork, which sadly Pakistanis cannot consume. Maybe this sadness of not eating pork vindaloo is leading to all the resentment.
You are in Canada now. Go enjoy some cretons. The frustration at the Pakistani cricket team will disappear.
Pakistanis don’t want to consume pork?
It’s K’s point on idol worship; condition a population to the point that they don’t desire it.
Interestingly enough Pork curry feels almost oxymoronic.. so does beef curry; Q may be correct in heavy beef usage historically but it’s now settling a lamb-chicken dichotomy
Naah. There was no heavy beef usage historically so Q is not correct.
I have made enough comments regarding the same.
It was always lamb/goat based (like the Persian/Afghan tradition North Indian Muslim culture derives from).
Beef was always seen as lower class.
Pakistanis added beef post partition as it was cheaper and no Hindus to oppose it (opposed to North India which was/is Hindu majority).
Not saying that Pakistani beef versions are bad but they are the derivative. The originals are still in India.
Give me full freedom someday, Sanyal saab.
It’s Sahab. Not Saab.
Just channelling my inner Tywin Lannister here
The reason why I said I am channeling my inner Tywin lannister is because of the dialogue between him and Arya Stark. Arya stark is pretending to be a low born girl to avoid being taken as hostage, but Tywin picks up that she is not low-born because the way she says ‘my lord’ is how high borns speak. He instead tells her that if she is pretending to be a low born, she should say ‘mi-lord’ because that’s how low-borns speak.
In this scenario
‘Sahab’ – which is the proper pronounciation – is used by the Ashraf class
‘Saab’ is used by the Labor class
But in the modern day, Pakistanis are very much the labor class.
No need.
All this is online bluster. Toronto is one of the most Indian cities outside India. Unlike London, there isn’t a sizeable population of other subcontinental nationalities so everyone gets lumped under Indian.
Same if you extend it countrywide, comparing Canada to London.
So I can see why non Indian desis in Canada might have some grouses.
Same with USA where Indian numbers/influence far overpower all the subcontinental groups combined by a large margin.
The “crescentiate” is exclusively composed of people from these countries.
The Toronto metro area is actually really diverse and has people from all over the world and all across south Asia. I go there all the time. You shouldn’t speak on places you’ve never visited nor lived in. Toronto has one of the biggest Pakistani communities in the west and suburbs like Mississauga are known as little Pakistan juxtaposed to little India (Brampton). Places like Ridgeway plaza are known for their Pakistani and middle eastern restaurants, not as many Indians there. Moroever, most of the Indians in Canada especially the GTA are Punjabi Sikhs and they notoriously do not identify as Indian, there’s a pretty big Khaalistan movement in Canada.
Punjabi Sikhs not identifying as Indian do not make them non Indian. Their homeland is entirely within India and other people see them as Indian as well. In fact a lot of the backlash in Canada regarding Indians is because of Punjabi Sikhs.
Also I never denied the existence of other subcontinentals. Just that their numbers/influence combined is just not on the level of Indians (as in the USA).
You were talking about India’s cultural influence in Canada but it’s mostly Punjabi Sikh influence – who have very active separatist movements in North America. You also claimed that other south asians didn’t have much of a presence in Canada or places outside London and that we get labelled under indian, which is patently false especially in the year 2026. You speak too dogmatically about stuff you have no knowledge about.
“Some” of them are separatists in North America, not India.
There is no Khalistan. Vast majority of Punjabi Sikhs are Indian and all their Panj Takht (as clarified by XTM in a post) remain within India.
Hence, Punjabi Sikh culture is very much Indian.
And the Canadian Punjabi popstars are all Indian Punjabi. Diljit literally kicked out Khalistanis from his show.
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/entertainment/im-being-abused-from-both-sidesdiljit-dosanjh-amid-tensions-with-pro-khalistan-groups/
And yet we can see the performance of protein rich Pakistanis vis a vis their Indian competitors in sports including the number 1 sport of both countries.
India hosts diplomats from foreign countries to discuss issues with them for mutual benefit including economic growth.
Pakistan hosts diplomats from foreign countries to discuss issues with each other while just providing hosting.
A country masquerading as a catering company if you will.
What is the point of economic growth if you eat Gobi tamatar for dinner?
If you gave me a billion shekels of paper money on the condition that I eat that everyday, I would decline the cash, respectfully
No one is eating gobi tamatar for dinner.
India has plenty of non vegetarian dishes which even Pakistan has adapted including Nihari, originating in Awadh.
Nihari is made with beef, which is banned in India ..
BB it’s a bit of a stretch. You have to also understand that Pakistani culture’s High Culture is elite North Indian Muslim culture.
saying Nihar is Indian, not Pakistan, when the main ingredient is (rightfully) interdicted in Bharat, is a stretch and a half 🙂
Nothing mandatory as such though.
The Wikipedia article:
Pakistan can “adopt” North Indian Muslim culture but Lucknow and Delhi are still in India as are most of the Hindustani Muslims.
Pizza is very popular in India and considering the population differential, eaten more in Indian than Italy. Doesn’t make it Indian.
And even if you consider beef restrictions, this is what ChatGPT says:
So Pakistanis might have “adopted” nihari from India and made it primarily beef based but then you get chicken tikka/tandoori chicken pizza in India as well.
Saying that nihari is made with “beef” is like saying pizza is made with “chicken tikka” toppings.
the analogy fails because if Italians had migrated en masse to one city in India and then perfect whatever that Italian food was.
Pakistan and the Islamicate inheritance is not Italy and India
It is almost like Italian Americans and Italy.
Pizza is seen as an American – Italian – Italian American dish.
Pizzas were popularised around the world by the Yanks so were Hamburgers.
India cannot become more Hindu Nationalist and accordingly Hindu and also claim to be an Islamicate power.
In fact that’s what has happened; it was a miscalculation to alienate Iran, but if India had had more Muslims at the top, it would have played it well
The Italian Americans example make sense except for one difference.
USA is the bigger modern day power vis a vis Italy. Pakistan isn’t vis a vis India.
Pizzas were popularized around the world by the Yanks.
Mughlai cuisine is not popularized around the world by Pakistanis but by Indians.
Even Pakistanis rebrand their restaurants as Indian around the world. The only place where there are “Pakistani” restaurants are where there is a sizeable Pakistani demographic to cater to. And in the high end, there are no Pakistani restaurants.
u r litigating this.
for instance Pakistan claims the Islamicate inheritance that Bangladesh cannot.
that is because Bangladesh is a regional Bengali speaking polity.
Pakistan maintained Urdu as the national language, has reshaped an entire national identity and high cultural axis around MBQ and the Muslim age down to 1857..
this is a Schrodinger’s cat argument..
if north Sri Lanka had become a Tamilian state, India could not have claimed to be more “Tamil” than that state.
Aurangzeb would have had his peace in Pakistan but likely so would Akbar *putatively* for that matter. the social acclimatisation..
Urdu is also an official language in the North in India.
Don’t see the point of making Tamils or Malayalis speak in Urdu. These shenanigans are what led to 1971.
North Indian Muslim culture is a subset of Indian culture not an adopted national culture like it is for Pakistan.
Not in matters of food. Here TNT applies fully.
Good that you are now slowly discovering why Pakistani resturants abroad write “Pakistani and Indian cuisine” in many places. It’s not due to some love for India or to steal Indian identity.
When diaspora is small, they don’t want to exclude Indian/Bangladeshi Muslim clients because we love the same types of dishes. Most Hindus avoid it because it serves beef and is most definitely non-vegetarian.
Naah, it doesn’t.
North Indian Mughlai food is popular all over India, including amongst non Muslims.
And the only places where Pakistani restaurants abroad even add “Pakistani” is where there is some Pakistani diaspora to cater to, mostly in the suburbs and not even particularly “high end”.
In the words of X.T.M
Everywhere else Pakistanis run Indian food restaurants.
And of course, the high end of global cuisine has ZERO Pakistani representation but plenty of Indian – including North Indian Muslim food.
Plenty in your own town as well.
https://guide.michelin.com/en/ca/ontario/toronto/restaurants/indian
Notice how there isn’t even a “Pakistani” category to select.
I’m not a believer in two-nation theory but this is where two-nation theory shines the brightest — FOOD
May this should be a topic of your next post XTM
I have never eaten Nihari in any other form than Beef.
The only reason Muslims in India are making Goat Nihari is because the vego-fascist crowd might start violence if they put beef in it.
Imagine starting violence in this day and age over someone else’s food that someone else is eating!
Naah, goat nihari existed hundreds of years before Pakistan even did and it was the preferred version in royal Mughlai kitchens in the Awadh region where it originated.
Pakistanis started using beef because it was cheaper.
Mughalai cuisine was historically always heavy on beef. You can tell yourself fake stories about goat to feel good, but it’s the reality.
Infact, most Muslim Punjabis eat Beef today because of Hindustani Muslim culture, beef was the most commonly eaten and almost all our favorite dishes and kababs have beef in it.
Goat/Sheep is more eaten by Afghans, Cow is the Animal of choice in India because its more abundant.
I have never even seen ‘goat nihari; being sold anywhere in Karachi. I am sure it may exist to cater to some diabetic heart patients but I personally have eaten nihari hundreds of times in my life and never seen it.
We much prefer goat or lamb interestingly enough; the Afghan-Persian strain
And that is the original version which developed as Mughlai cuisine across North India. Persian/Afghan culture mixing with Indian aka the history of North Indian Muslim “high” culture.
Pakistanis added beef post partition because it was cheaper.
In fact, beef isn’t even that big in Arabic/Iranian/Turkish cuisine (aka the actual leaders of the ummah). Lamb/goat has always been bigger.
Among Muslim countries, beef dominates more in the peripheral and poorer countries due to relative cheapness.
Hence why the “no beef” argument doesn’t hold water with respect to North Indian Muslim food.
Current Indian Mughlai cuisine is still the original one and is served in restaurants across India and abroad. Karim’s was opened by a cook who worked in the actual Mughal courts.
Lamb/Sheep is more gamey than veal.. the gamey flavor is an acquired taste. Punjabis and North Indians don’t like it, preferring domsticated beef, whereas Afghans and Persians consider it a good taste (they even cook/grill with lamb fat to get it)
No it wasn’t. Mughlai cuisine was always heavy on goat/lamb, not beef. Pakistanis added beef post partition after adopting it because it was cheaper.
These are not my words but ChatGPT’s which take it from real sources.
Traditional Mughlai cuisine was primarily based on mutton (goat) and also lamb in some regions, rather than beef.
Key meats in classical Mughlai cuisine included:
The cuisine developed in the courts of the Mughal Empire, blending:
Why mutton/goat dominated
In North India:
Many famous Mughlai dishes historically used mutton:
What about beef?
Beef certainly existed in parts of Muslim society under the Mughals, and some ordinary Muslims consumed it. But:
Also, because the empire ruled a huge Hindu-majority population where cows were religiously significant, Mughal rulers often politically moderated cow slaughter policies depending on region and ruler.
For example, Akbar imposed restrictions on cow slaughter in some contexts to maintain social harmony.
Nihari specifically
Nihari today is often associated with beef in Pakistan, especially
Karachi. But historically in Delhi and old Mughlai traditions, it was commonly made with:
So the older Mughlai core leaned more toward goat/mutton than beef.
Lamb/goat was eaten by the ruling class, including in royal courts.
Beef was eaten by the labor class. Tbh considering Pakistan’s condition, it still is.
Like you I have never seen beef hamburgers being sold in India. Doesn’t meant it doesn’t exist and is the “real” version.
Next thing that will be taught in Pakistani history is how the Mughals spoke in Punjabi.
The last emperor Bahadur Shah Gill lol.
Can you please stop retarded Chat GPT posts. The AI is simply scraping bad Indian history articles published by Indian magazines for their ”composite” culture but in a way try to guilt trip Muslims into believing that lamb is what those guys ate, not cow. All of it is very questionable.
It is true that beef was cheaper than lamb in India/Pakistan, and probably it is also the reason why it is the protein of choice for Indian Muslims — because its cheaper. But it’s also less gamey flavored than lamb which is what Indians and Pakistanis prefer in taste, but Afghans and Persians may not agree. You can clearly see what restuarants outside South Asia sell – it’s all beef or chicken, and rarely lamb/goat.
Almost all dishes, invented during the late Mughal era use beef extensively and are eaten with beef primarily. Nihari, Qeema, Seekh and Shaami Kababs, Bihari Kababs, Haleem, Biryani, Pulao, Koftey.. these are all eaten with Beef.
Forcing the poor Muslims of Bihar to make Bihari Kababs with goat, or Lucknow Muslims to make Haleem with lamb meat is just ridiculous.
The only reason for using mutton or lamb before 1947 was to keep Hindu religious sensibilities in mind.
My granfather told me that cow slaughter was very common in North Indian in most Muslim towns and villages, they just avoided doing it near Hindu areas to not offend them. However this had become a big issue during the indpeendence movement as Hindus wanted to ban cow slaughter for Muslims and this was seen as a way for them to try to dominate Muslims. This sense of alienation is one of the reasons why Indian Muslims over whelmingly voted for the Muslim League, because they felt threatened.
ChatGPT doesn’t become yahoodi saazish because it doesn’t align with what you want.
You are the one coping now by creating a fake history.
North Indian Muslim culture derived from Persian/Afghan culture. Persian was even the court language for a long long time. So it is obvious that the cuisines would have that as a preference while the poorer sections might have liked beef because it was cheap.
With the qualifier: in Pakistan. Not originally.
By saying this you have actually supported my point. The original versions (which are still available in India) were goat/lamb based due to Persian/Afghan influence and Hindu sensibilities.
In Pakistan, without any Hindus to offend and cheaper prices, beef was adopted.
Doesn’t meant it is not tasty or bad food, but it is very much a “cover version” – just like chicken tikka pizza.
Running your questions through Chatgpt doesn’t make it factual, you can get an LLM to agree with you and reaffirm your biases and craft whatever narrative you want it to. Try to write your own posts instead of relying on an llm.
Nihari is made with beef, that’s the only real nihari – anything else is blasphemy. Beef is more expensive than chicken, so I don’t know how it’s considered poor mans meat.
Btw a hamburger is beef by default, saying “beef hamburger” is redundant and doesn’t make sense. It’d be like saying chai tea or naan bread.
ChatGPT is based on real sources.
Get any LLM to agree with you that “Mughlai cuisines originally used beef over lamb/goat” and show it here. I don’t think you will be able to. I will be waiting.
And your “beef hamburger” point shows that you have trouble understanding analogies.
A hamburger is beef by default. But In India, because of cultural reasons it was replaced with other meats.
Similarly, nihari which was developed in Delhi/Lucknow which are Indian cities (You can check the wikipedia article and check sources. Don’t call it yahoodi saazish). And just like hamburgers in India, nihari underwent changes in Pakistan due to cost reasons.
And comparing beef with chicken makes no sense. It might be more expensive than chicken but not compared to mutton (which it replaced) which is more than twice the price. And chicken is white meat so completely different flavor profile so a bad faith argument.
Saying beef nihari is the real nihari when it is a knockoff of the original thing is what is actual “blasphemy”.
BTW here is my query on ChatGPT. Get me a similar query to prove otherwise like I said. I’m waiting.
Did Mughlai food use mutton/goat or beef primarily?
And btw another LLM query I made. As above, get me a query proving otherwise. I assume you can “get an LLM to agree with you and reaffirm your biases and craft whatever narrative you want it to”. I’ll be waiting.
Query:
where did nihari originate and did it use goat/lamb or beef?
Answer:
Nihari is generally believed to have originated in the late Mughal Empire period in either:
The word “nihari” comes from the Arabic nahar (“morning”), because it was traditionally eaten as a breakfast dish after dawn prayers.
Historically, the original nihari was primarily made with:
In elite Mughal and Awadhi cooking, goat meat was considered more refined and prestigious. Early nihari was a slow-cooked stew using:
Beef-based nihari became dominant later, especially in:
Why Pakistan shifted heavily to beef nihari:
Today:
In much of Pakistan, “nihari” usually means beef nihari unless specified otherwise.
In older Awadhi/Old Delhi traditions, goat nihari is still often seen as the more classical or premium version.
You can still find:
You can get an LLM to agree with any side of any argument. The Mughals did eat horse meat and also preferred goat and lamb but a lot of these dishes are vary and originate from the middle east. Nihari’s precursor is from Iraq and the name itself is arabic originally.
Hamburgers are beef by default, India’s cultural context doesn’t matter since its not an Indian dish. Nihari is also beef by default, calling it beef nihari is as redundant as saying “ATM machine”.
You can talk about nihari and various Islamicate dishes all you want but I know for a fact you didn’t grow up eating themunlike most Pakistanis and I know for fact that your mother and grandmothers didn’t make those dishes at home – this is something most Indians tell me in person, these aren’t dishes made in a typical Indian household outside the 14%. Gatekeeping a dish you didn’t grow up with is beyond absurd.
Then Mr Khawaja, please provide me with a query and LLM which supports your argument as it did mine?
From my end, all I did was go to ChatGPT and typed “Did Mughlai cuisine primarily use beef or goat/lamb”.
Kindly tell me the steps to recreate on an LLM your side of the argument. I am waiting.
Except it isn’t. Nihari is not beef by default as I have provided sources for. Can you give me any other sources supporting your point of view or is it vibes and inshallah? “Pakistani nihari” might be beef by default, not nihari. Just like Indian hamburgers are chicken by default, not hamburgers.
Doesn’t matter. My mother and grandmother made plenty of British style dishes. Does it mean I am British now? It does not need to be made in a “typical” Indian household when it is made in the 14% aka the original creators. And they still make it the original way with goat/lamb and not beef. Btw it is not 14%. That includes non Hindustani Muslims as well.
First of all I am not from Kerala. I just went there on vacation. Secondly I am Indian where these dishes originated and where they are still available in their original form. It is you who are “culturally appropriating” this cuisine by making your own knockoff versions.
And btw here is a non LLM version showing nihari’s origins. Pakistani source too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmLAB6ANg9g
stay away from the racism. what’s wrong with being from Kerala? BB is not from there as it is
Edit that and the other comment I sent in as well.
Tattletaling at your big age is embarrassing lmao.
It’s called moderation.
Not one of your Pakistani online ghettos where you lot have converged to hide from Indians (r/pakcricket for one) and escape it.
Lies/bigotry/delusions will be called out here.
I didn’t say anything racist. That’s an odd accusation.Saying he’s from Kerala is not an insult, I even said Kerala has great cuisine. I don’t know how that could be construed as racism.
Your anti Dravidian animus is known to all post that chimp out. You just weren’t expecting XTM to be the damaad of Dravida Nadu hehehe.
Looks like Quraishi was the one telling themselves fake sotries about beef to feel good while the “Reality” is different.
Beef was never big in Hindustani Muslim culture and was seen as low class. Even now it is not big amongst Hindustani Muslims, majority of whom still live in “Hindustan”. Muslim Punjabis are “cosplaying” like I say.
Not that it means that beef based Pakistani knockoffs are bad.
But at the end of the day, it is still a cover version.
We wrote the original song.
Well you’re not a Hindustani Muslim, moreover you lowkey hate them cause you’ve talked about De-muslimizing them and making them just token Muslims-in-name-only like your favorite Bollywood Khans. You’re an avowed Indian nationalist and by extension Hindu nationalist that ardently supports the BJP. Trying to speak on behalf of Muslim Indians is beyond absurd, trying to appropriate their heritage is also quite sad since they’re a minority being persecuted by the very people you support and at the same time you have your own cultural heritage you rarely speak on. Check out Indian Muslim archives on X, he’s an Indian Muslim who speaks a lot on Islamicate culture and takes down the Hindutvas every day, currently he’s having a field day tearing down the sad menu Modi has presented to foreign dignitaries. I’d recommend checking out his page to give you a dose of reality.
I think the term ”mughlai cuisine”, although widely used is a misnomer, and I like that you used the word ‘Islamicate cuisine’ because they are primarily eaten by Muslims. Most of these dishes were invented during the Nawab era of the Mughal empire. They were mostly all beef dishes, but apparently modern Indians want to erase our history by erasing references to beef to not offend Hindu sensibilities and promote vegetarianism.
They are going to tell us now what our mother’s and grandmother’s family recipe includes goat and not beef. LOL
As I said, the TNT shines in the food department, because there is a very clear line when it comes to food differences
They were never beef dishes but always goat ones.
The actual descendants of the nawabs living in India, including Wajid Ali Shah’s direct descendant sells the mutton/goat versions in her restaurant in Kolkata (a state with no beef ban btw).
And the vast majority of Hindustani Muslims who stayed behind will say the same.
Your mothers and grandmothers in Karachi could not afford mutton so they used beef.
TNT does shine in the food department – Goat based original Mughlai cuisine vs Beef based knockoffs.
I might not be, but the vast majority of Hindustani Muslims are “my” countrymen and all of the major centers of Hindustani Muslims lie within “my” country.
I can book a flight to Delhi, Lucknow and Hyderabad today – the heart of Hindustani Muslim culture and enjoy the cuisine in its original form.
You can’t, whether you are a Pakistani citizen or not.
As far as Indian Muslim Archives, I know of him. He is an Indian too and has all the rights of an Indian so he can say what he wants, including criticism of Modi. It is a democracy after all.
And apart from Hindutvas, he also bashes Pakistani Muslims and their appropriation of Hindustani Muslim culture (which you lot are doing now). I like how you conveniently ignored that.😂
Here he is on your favourite Nihari and Pakistani claims to it:
https://x.com/Rustum_0/status/2038658238506500155
> Pakistani culture’s High Culture is elite North Indian Muslim culture.
People just don’t understand this.. sometimes many Pakistanis (various ethno nats) on our side don’t understand this as well.
Pakistani high culture in food, dress and language is basically Mughal high culture with some minor changes.. and in matters of food culture, it’s 80% Mughlai + 20% Pasthun.
Why do some Indians think that just because they live on the same line on the map, they can claim everything about everyone who does as well. There have been different groups living in the same neighbourhood in India who have not dined or intermarried with each other for thousands of years.
If you don’t eat meat, you can’t seriously claim meat dishes as yours. It’s just absurd.
Except for the fact that plenty of Indians do eat meat, including the North Indian Muslims – majority of whom didn’t even migrate including the very elite.
Cosplaying as some other culture doesn’t mean you become them. That requires history/geography.
Plenty doesn’t mean most and even among the sizable minority that does, very few if any eat beef unless they belong to an Abrahamic minority group.
Most Hindus eat non vegetarian food. Anyone who lives in India can tell you that. There are statistics regarding that. Your experiences with high caste vegetarian Indians in USA (due to the nature of immigration) is not representative of “all” Hindus many of whom are non-vegetarian according to caste or region.
And the Abrahamic groups are completely non vegetarian so yes, most Indians do eat meat. It is not the sizeable minority but the majority. And this number exceeds the entire population of Pakistan.
As for beef eaters, Abrahamics themselves account for 18% of Indians. Add in the minority of Hindu beef eaters, I won’t be surprised if even total number of beef eaters exceeds that of Pakistan.
And since unlike you, I am not “vibes and inshallah” I will provide sources for my claims.
National Family Health Survey (NFHS-5, 2019-21)
81% of Indians are non-vegetarian.
That is more than four times the entire population of Pakistan.
There’s literally a beef ban in India. Mobs that lynch Muslims for eating or transporting beef/cattle. I’ve been told by Indian Muslims in America that it’s nearly impossible to eat beef in India and they have to settle for buffalo meat.
There isn’t “all over”. You are again doing “vibes and inshallah” using anecdotal experiences.
There are nearly 150 million people in states with no beef bans.
Plus also there is absolutely no ban on beef consumption but on slaughter. You find extremely good cuts of steak all over India in fancy restaurants.
And I like how you did not elaborate on the non-vegetarian part which my original comment was in reply to.
80% of Indians (4x Pakistan’s population) are non vegetarian and eat the original goat based dishes of Mughlai cuisine. They can’t eat the Pakistani knockoffs but I’d say they are happy with the originals.
Those diplomats definitely are
Good for them. Great food.
Gucchi mushroom ki curry bhi milti hai. 1 kg lene mein poora toshakhana bik jaaega.
You guys even avoided onions and garlic in this menu, which I must say is quite impressive seeing how the base of every Indian dish is ginger-garlic paste
And here you are talking about eating mushroom which is not even a plant
Unironically that’s the truest Indian food. Hinduism forbids or discourages what’s considered tamasic/rajasic food which would include spicy dishes and pretty much all Islamicate cuisine. That’s why many Indians suggest Kichri is India’s actual national dish since it abides by the sattvic guidelines. True “Dharmic Jambudvipa” cuisine must be in line with ayurvedic principles..
Chatting amongst yourselves won’t deny the Indian nature of Mughlai cuisine.
I plan to someday checkout the Pakistani versions.
Cover versions can sometimes be better than the originals.
I do prefer Jimi Hendrix’s cover of All along the Watchtower over the Bob Dylan original.
Who knows – I might become a bigger fan of Pakistani beef nihari over the original goat version.
India is a Hindu state/rashtra by its own admission. You can’t demolish the masajid and then appropriate the heritage. Muslim Indians disavow Modi/BJP and the targeted destruction of their community and heritage.
India is the planet’s class-leading democratic republic that epitomizes unity in diversity. And yes, its fundamental majority Dharmic nature provides the foundational bedrock for its pluralist society.
No amount of one-eyed envious Pakistani talking points can change this fact.
And yes, Modern India can simultaneously embrace its Hindu heritage along with elements of its Mughal past. And it is for Indians to decide which elements they chose to celebrate or omit. Indians are at liberty and full rights to choose Akbar and a Dara Shikoh to celebrate, while criticizing the Aurangzebs and Khiljis.
No amount of Pakistani whinging will move the needle. Its simply…. irrelevant.
Stop the cap.
India is a hybrid system, a flawed democracy according to the democracy index. The occupation of Jammu&Kashmir itself and the abolition of article 370 is proof that India doesn’t practice federalism. Kashmir has been under Presidents rule 8 times since 1977. India is by definition a Hindu country and their PM Modi (thrice elected) has stated the mughal period along with other Muslim empires was just “1200 years of slavery”. I’d appreciate it if you were more honest like your other Hinudtva compatriots instead of larping as an RSS-loving “Humza Shah”.
India is less flawed than the monarchies of europe, and the Drumpf-led shitshow that’s the US.
Nobody’s claiming its perfect. Scroll up and read again. Flaws are there, but to paraphrase that fat drunk Churchill, Demoracy is a “sux”, but it suxx less than the other systems. Similarly Indian Democracy, while far from utopian, is still arguably the best in class, especially when you factor in the challenges of mind-boggling levels of diversity that it manages from multiple aspects -religion just being one of them.
You can keep crying and cling on to BS talking points. I empathize, especially when your own ‘leaders’ are mostly corrupt muppet-puppets that have to dance to the tunes of klepto-military Zamindar Danda.
Again false. More “vibes plus inshallah”.
Again personal opinion. People are allowed to have personal opinions. It’s a democracy. I get it if Pakistanis do not understand.
Just like the IndianMuslimArchives thing you repeatedly give me ammunition yourself. Dunning-Kruger effect hehe.
According to the “Democracy Index” India is at 7.29, a flawed democracy. While Pakistan is an “authoritarian regime” with a value of 2.84.
Since we are talking about Kashmir and its “occupation” let us check out Freedom House scores.
https://freedomhouse.org/explore-the-map?type=fiw&year=2026
India – 62
Indian Kashmir – 38
Pakistan – 32
Pakistani Kashmir – 30
If Indian Kashmir is “occupied”, Pakistan is even more so. And it is – by the fauj. Indian Kashmiris get to elect leaders. Pakistanis don’t.
It literally isn’t. Certain political parties/people might consider it so but many people don’t and India is still a secular state and not a Hindu rashtra (Just like the USA is not a white supremacist state despite MAGA wishes).
Instead of doing “vibes plus inshallah” point out to me where in the constitution or any official government notice has India been made a Hindu state/rashtra.
You claim a lot of stuff but never are able to back it up with evidence.
This is the preamble to the Constitution of India.
Why do you think they are trying to deny their roots and starting an identity crises. Its true native cuisine which is BJP compatible but BB is craving beef biryani still.
Guys own up your native local culture. Why have you adopted foreign recipes and trying to pass off as your own?
You are the one doing that cosplaying as Hindustani Muslims – adopting their language, their food (though modifying that for cost saving) while the originals still exist across the border.
India literally has restaurants opened up by cooks from the Mughal court (Karim’s, Delhi) as well as descendants of the Nawabs (Manzilat’s, Kolkata).
They didn’t have to appropriate low class “beef” to save some “shekels”.
Why don’t you guys own up your local culture. Enjoy Sindhi Kadhi, Saag, Daal (what the Afghans have known you by for hundreds of years lol).
when it comes to subjects like democracy, liberty, gender rights, and even diversity of food, a phrase comes to mind:
Bandar kyaa jaane adrak ka swaad.
Porey menu main adrak nahi hai kahin
Aur batein kerlo bandar aur adrak ki 😀
In other news, despite a clear mandate to go away, TMC is now too rotten to not indulge in the most despicable behaviour. I really hope BJP drains this swamp and doesn’t let political practicality come in the way of going after the thugs that have ruined Bengal for decades.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xl1g5TZlemM
Probably explains the heartburn across the border at TMC’s loss. No wonder Phield Marshal threatened to “start from the East” next time.
https://www.thedailystar.net/trinamool-jamaat-nexus-a-puzzle-and-a-worry-42153
This is what the “East” said vis a vis Pakistan.
https://x.com/trahmanbnp/status/2036485539444982074
Pakistan’s “geopolitical masterstrokes” always backfire. After Afghanistan and Bangladesh, we might see Iran send Shaheds into Pakistan in a few years.
Like always, this image remains immortal.
Al-Lat Mata ki Jai
Al-Uzza Mata ki Jai
Al-Manat Mata ki Jai
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