Why is Pakistani Culture obsessed with Policing Female Virginity?

We were at our favourite Persian restaurant. A young woman two tables away, not Persian herself, was telling her Persian father about her female friend in continental Europe.

The friend was Pakistani-origin. She had started dating a Latino man. The Pakistani friend’s mother, somehow, had a dream. In the dream, her daughter had lost her virginity.

The dream was the trigger.

The mother went into a spiral. The father, it was said, lost his job. The mother had a nervous breakdown. A trip back to the Muslim homeland was arranged. The daughter refused to board until she saw the return flight in her hand. Only then did she get on the plane. When she returned to the Muslim country, they told her she wasn’t going back to Europe.

We lost the rest of the story, and, over the rest of the meal, we thought about Sana Cheema.


What Sana Cheema Saw

Sana Cheema was a twenty-six-year-old Italian-Pakistani who had lived in Brescia since 2002. She wanted to marry a second-generation Italian-Pakistani man of her own choosing. Her father took her back to Gujrat, in Punjab, under the pretext of a visit.

She was strangled the day before her return flight to Italy. Her neck was broken. Her hyoid bone dislocated. Her father, her brother, and her uncle were charged. They had buried her quickly, without autopsy, and told relatives she had died of natural causes. The body had to be exhumed on a magistrate’s order after Italian media forced the case into daylight.


Qandeel Baloch, in the Same Line

Fouzia Azeem, known as Qandeel Baloch, was strangled by her brother Muhammad Waseem in Multan on 15 July 2016, aged twenty-six. He told a police press conference that she had brought “disrepute to our family’s honour” and had no regrets. He was convicted in 2019 and acquitted in February 2022 after their mother pardoned him.

A mother who carried the daughter, then forgave the son for killing her.


The OnlyFans Line

A Pakistani commenter on this blog recently wrote that the only downside of the Islamic Revolution in Iran is that there is no OnlyFans.

Mock it if you wish; we take it seriously. The revolution’s first and most durable project, from the Iranian morality police has been the control of the female body. Everything else has been contested and revised: banking laws, foreign policy, bread prices, constitutional amendments. The control of female sexuality has not been revised. It is the one thing the project refuses to negotiate.

Q was offering a quip. We accept it as a diagnostic.


The Numbers

Honour killings: Many killings are registered as suicide, accident, or natural cause, as Sana Cheema’s was.

Khula, the women-initiated divorce: in Punjab, divorce cases rose thirty-five percent over the five years to 2024. Lahore’s family courts now receive roughly sixty khula petitions a day. The Pakistan Bureau of Statistics records 499,000 divorced women nationally. Women-initiated divorce is running roughly twenty-five percent ahead of male-initiated.

Pakistan sits at 142 of 146 countries on the World Economic Forum’s Global Gender Gap Index (2023).

The women are voting with the only ballots they have. The courts. The planes. The dating apps. The Latino boyfriends in European capitals.

Imran Khan, former Prime Minister, blamed the rising divorce rate on Hollywood and Bollywood films. We blame the mothers’ dreams.


The Diaspora Leak

Fascinatingly about the restaurant anecdote is its geography. The mother was not in Karachi. The daughter was not in Lahore. The dream crossed an ocean. The return flight was international.

Diaspora Pakistani mothers export the virginity economy. They transmit it to daughters raised in Berlin, London, Toronto, Milan, under legal systems that do not recognise the ledger the mother is keeping. The daughter lives under two sovereignties and has to choose. Sometimes she chooses the plane ticket home. Sana Cheema chose the plane ticket home. It did not save her.

The nervous breakdown, the father’s suddenly lost job, the family’s shattered reputation: all are weapons the mother has learned to wield across borders. The daughter is asked to pay the cost of a social order she did not build, cannot escape without cruelty to people she loves, and will hand on to her own daughter if she does not break the chain.


What Is Wrong

So, what is wrong with Pakistani culture? Not everything. Urdu poetry is not wrong. Biryani is not wrong. The Hindustani musical inheritance Kabir writes about on this blog is not wrong. The generosity of middle-class Lahori households is not wrong.

What is wrong is the insistence that a daughter’s body is the load-bearing wall of the family name. That insistence, carried from Multan to Milan, across three generations, through revolutions and constitutions and divorces and migrations, is the thing. It is what a mother dreams when she dreams of her daughter losing her virginity. It is what a brother reaches for when he reaches for the cord. It is what an acquittal ratifies when a mother pardons a son for killing his sister.

The khula numbers say the women know. The honour-killing numbers say some men are willing to defend the wall with corpses.


Closing

We finished our Ash-e-Reshteh. We paid. We walked past the girl at the next table, who was still talking, and her father, who was still nodding.

0 0 votes
Article Rating
Subscribe
Notify of
guest

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.

167 Comments
Oldest
Newest Most Voted
sbarrkum
sbarrkum
2 months ago

So, what is wrong with Pakistani culture?

Whats wrong with Indo Aryan culture with its obsession with virginity. Caste Councils, Virginity, Barbaric Virginity tests. India has a long way to go to be really modern.

You can watch the Dateline video and decide for your self

India’s obsession with virginity | Full Episode | SBS Dateline
https://youtu.be/M9EXcHiV4wE

Kabir
2 months ago
Reply to  sbarrkum

Yes, I think it is not fair to make this about “Pakistani culture”.

“Honor killings” are unfortunately a phenomenon in many parts of the world including India.

Years ago, I was watching an Indian soap opera (I think it was “Maryada: Lekin Kab Tak”). One of the female characters was literally told by her mother “You left this house on the wedding palanquin. You can only return on the funeral bier”. These characters were not Muslim.

In the same show, another of the female characters’ husband was conducting a raging romance with her sister.

This was an Indian show meant to create awareness of women’s rights. I believe it was set in Haryana.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryada:_Lekin_Kab_Tak%3F

South Asia takes women’s honor extremely seriously. This is why during Partition, one of the most effective ways men had of hurting each other was by violating women of the “other” community. Muslim women who had been defiled by Hindu/Sikh men were stigmatized for the rest of their lives. The same applies on the other side. One only has to read Rajindir Singh Bedi’s “Lajwanti”..

Last edited 2 months ago by Kabir
sbarrkum
sbarrkum
2 months ago
Reply to  Kabir

South Asia takes women’s honor extremely seriously.

Not in Sri Lanka Kabir a country that used to practice polyandry. In many ways we are more like SE Asia

BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
2 months ago
Reply to  sbarrkum

There is no feminist utopia in the world, maybe minus Scandinavia.

Sri Lanka, like South India, Northeast India, Goa/Maharashtra/West Bengal is probably the most liberal in the subcontinent.

Then the order would be Delhi/Indian Punjab/Himachal/Uttarakhand>Rest of North India/Bangladesh>Pakistani Punjab/Sindh>Afghanistan/KPK

sbarrkum
sbarrkum
2 months ago
Reply to  BombayBadshah

Sri Lanka, like South India, Northeast India, Goa/Maharashtra/West Bengal is probably the most liberal in the subcontinent.

Look at female literacy rate and that will tell the story.

Sri Lanka 97%
Kerala 97%
Maharashtra 81%

Another statistic to judge is marriage age. Older the marriage age is the more liberal the sexual mores. i.e. sex before marriage is a norm

Sri Lanka 24-27
Kerala 27
Maharashtra 22
=====================

List of Indian states and union territories by literacy rate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_states_and_union_territories_by_literacy_rate

BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
2 months ago
Reply to  sbarrkum

2011 numbers. Currently it is 2026.

sbarrkum
sbarrkum
2 months ago
Reply to  BombayBadshah

Look at 3rd column set “PLFS report (2024

BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
2 months ago
Reply to  sbarrkum

Push them one tier down then.

Kabir
2 months ago
Reply to  Kabir

Also, just to add that “Maryada: Lekin Kab Tak” was very progressive for its time. It had one of the first nuanced gay story lines on Indian TV. One of the main characters was named Gaurav (played by Dakssh Ajit Singh). He was forced into a sham marriage by his parents but his relationship with his male lover was shown positively.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakssh_Ajit_Singh

Calvin
Calvin
2 months ago
Reply to  X.T.M

How so? Cases similar to this happen even in south India for both religious and casteist reasons.

formerly brown
formerly brown
2 months ago
Reply to  sbarrkum

!!! There is a saying in punjab-why go through bhatinda always?
You seem to come through india for all topics. Hope we are not responsible for trump’s orange hair!!! Thank god

Calvin
Calvin
2 months ago
Reply to  sbarrkum

What explains Tamil Nadu being one of the states with the highest number of honour killing in India ?

sbarrkum
sbarrkum
2 months ago
Reply to  Calvin

What explains Tamil Nadu being one of the states with the highest number of honour killing in India ?

You have a link to this

Kabir
2 months ago
Reply to  sbarrkum

It’s in a pending comment (with lots of links)

BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
2 months ago

The usual suspects have again started with the “sem2sem”.

Whenever there is something negative about Pakistan, it becomes “Akshually, it is not a Pakistani phenomenon but SOUTH ASIAN”.

Maybe a post can be done about it someday.

India is no feminist utopia but it is a lot better than Pakistan in all aspects regarding gender.

EVERY objective metric points to this.

And it is getting better faster.

Posters are referring to TV shows from 2010 and partition era literature to cope when this is the year 2026.

Haryanvi women have won more Olympic medals than Pakistani women in history (ZERO). The last women’s WC which India won had a Haryanvi woman as POM in the final (Pakistan didn’t win a single match).

I have repeatedly said that there are pathways available for Muslims in India that is not in Pakistan.

An Urfi Javed cannot exist in Pakistan. She can, in India.

sbarrkum
sbarrkum
2 months ago
Reply to  BombayBadshah

Why dont you compare India with Thailand or Malaysia.
Or even Sri Lanka, we are not the greatest but manage even with a small population (23 million)

BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
2 months ago
Reply to  sbarrkum

They are richer countries. I have never said India was “sem2sem” with them.

It is Kabir who is making India-Pakistan “sem2sem” comparisons.

Sri Lanka is better than the India average, I have never denied that.

But then, Sri Lanka is way smaller and is on par with Indian states like Kerala (with 2x population) and TN (with 4x population).

Last edited 2 months ago by Bombay Badshah
BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
2 months ago
Reply to  X.T.M

I disagree. I would say they are slightly above Pakistani Punjab but not by much (although gap will widen).

KPK areas would be the worst.

Of course, if there are no women in public then it does become automatically safe for women.

Last edited 2 months ago by Bombay Badshah
BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
2 months ago
Reply to  X.T.M

I am fair.

I never said Haryana-Delhi-UP is some Scandinavia or for that matter even Bombay or Goa.

And I admitted these are the only two places between India and Pakistan which are somewhat similar.

There is no world in which Haryana-Delhi-UP is more “unsafe” than Pak Punjab for women.

You can point to instances of violence against women in those areas but they exist in Pakistani Punjab too?

The Qandeel Baloch and Sana Cheema incidents in your post literally happened in Pakistani Punjab.

BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
2 months ago
Reply to  X.T.M

Yup. When I get back.

I do troll around a bit but reality is the Delhi NCR region has developed a LOT and the lawlessness has been reined in quite a bit.

Haryana is solidly South East Asian now wrt socioeconomic metrics and compares very favorably to the South Indian states.

The rowdy element is more engaged in things like reality TV and have been tamed quite a bit (like American rednecks in a sense).

RecoveringNewsJunkie
2 months ago
Reply to  X.T.M

Sorry, what is the basis for asserting this?

IIRC a Pakistani residing in Europe/NA was visiting Lahore, and her car broke down after sunset on the road, and she was promptly raped by local farmhands – this was not too long ago. The reality is that as much as we decry and criticize – rightly so – some of the public safety issues for women in India, and esp North India – lets not somehow pretend that Pakistan is somehow ‘better’ in this department. It is, and remains orders of magnitude worse.

The differences are stark – women simply avoid being alone in public in Pakistan – its systemic – even in public areas, even for employment. This is not the case in the worst areas of “North India”.

BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
2 months ago

Exactly, North India lags behind South India, not Pakistan.

Don’t think there is any place in Pakistan which will allow women to wrestle in thongs like the entire wrestling cohort from Haryana.

BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
2 months ago

There was actually a Norwegian movie regarding this.

What Will People Say (2017).

Filled with Indian actors.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7213936/

As an aside:

Once I was in vacation in Madrid in 2023, an Uber driver happened to be a Pakistani woman. Did chat with her a while – She had migrated illegally to Spain. Basically, come to Spain on a tourist Schengen visa and overstayed.

This was mind boggling to me because I always conflated illegal migration to be more arduous – going across the sea on rafts, crossing borders discreetly, on the run from authorities.

Not only can you come and overstay your visa, the authorities won’t even deport you (which is something I assumed was universal) but you can register and get certain concessions like ability to work etc.

Liberal Europeans, I guess.

Apparently this is a very common trick in Pakistani immigration circles. In fact, that is how our conversation started because she assumed I was in the same boat and wanted to give me advice and initiated the conversation.

Funny thing was she seemed very urban and middle class with her English. That demographic never illegally immigrates from India. Either migrate legally to USA/UK or work in some corporate job in NCR, Bangalore, Hyderabad, Pune.

Indian illegal immigration is usually more rural and uneducated.

Last edited 2 months ago by Bombay Badshah
sbarrkum
sbarrkum
2 months ago
Reply to  BombayBadshah

Funny thing was she seemed very urban and middle class with her English. That demographic never illegally immigrates from India.

You get the urban middle class from India (and Sri Lanka) who are either illegal (overstayed visa) or asylum seekers (mainly Tamils or Sikhs).

In the US you get many of them in NYC. Cab drivers, corner shop workers/owners

the authorities won’t even deport you (which is something I assumed was universal) but you can register and get certain concessions like ability to work etc.

In the US too, you can be illegal and not be deported (till Trump). My wife’s cousin and husband were illegal for about 20 years in NYC. They owned a house, paid taxes. Both owned cars, husband a SUV. No concessions to work, so hubby drove a cab. Wife did baby sitting which pays well.

Some where around 2015 decided to leave and comeback to SL Sold the house for USD 500K (bought at 150K), Maxed out the Credit Cards and walked away.

There is a whole world that you dont know about BB

Calvin
Calvin
2 months ago

‘Honor’ culture is something that many in the subcontinent have grown out of.

For far too many people, their honour lives in their daughters genitals and some people are not even worried about killing their children if they can protect this fragile sense of honour. At the risk of being accused of doing ‘sem2sem’ here are some more instances of honour based killing across the subcontinent

Kerala catholic honour killings:

https://thesouthfirst.com/kerala/kerala-court-sentences-thenkurissi-caste-killing-convicts-to-life-imprisonment/

Discussion on Tamil Nadu based honour killing:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thehindu.com/news/national/tamil-nadu/watch-tamil-nadus-dark-history-of-caste-based-murder/article67901357.ece/amp/

Inter religious based honour killings:

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/gujarat/a-murder-related-to-interfaith-marriage-in-saurashtra/article68489702.ece

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/21/they-cut-him-into-pieces-indias-love-jihad-conspiracy-theory-turns-lethal

https://www.thenewsminute.com/kerala/parental-love-is-the-sickest-justification-for-fathimas-murder-by-her-father-in-kerala

There are many cases all over India where different communities kill their children to protect notions of honour. This is a subcontinental problem that required unpacking where this honour culture comes from.

BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
2 months ago

There is a new version of the World Economic Forum’s Global Gender Gap Index in 2025.

Pakistan ranks dead last at 148 of 148.

Kabir
2 months ago

This accusation that I am doing “sem2sem” has to be rebutted. Frankly, this is a ridiculous argument.

My limited objection is to the title of this post singling out “Pakistani culture”. There is enough evidence out there that this is not a Pakistan specific problem. As I mentioned, an Indian soap opera set in Haryana dealt with similar issues (sexual assault etc). I have no problem admitting that–on many gender-related metrics– India does significantly better than Pakistan. Of course, India is a constitutionally secular state while Pakistan is an Islamic Republic.

India managed to decriminalize consensual homosexual behavior. This is not possible in Pakistan.

So I’m happy to give India credit when it is due.

RecoveringNewsJunkie
RecoveringNewsJunkie
2 months ago
Reply to  Kabir

‘accusation’? lol, you literally got called out for doing just that and now you’re trying to paper over it.

Kabir
2 months ago

You really need to stop with the passive aggression.

I made a very limited point that it is unfair to single out “Pakistani culture” with regards to honor killings. It’s a reasonable point.

I’m sorry you fail to understand it.

Calvin
Calvin
2 months ago

@X.T.M a comment of mine seems to have gotten deleted. May I know if there was anything not allowed in that?

Kabir
2 months ago
Reply to  Calvin

It hasn’t been deleted. It’s pending.

Since this is X.T.M’s thread only he can approve it.

Generally, any comment that has more than one link in it gets flagged as spam.

Calvin
Calvin
2 months ago
Reply to  X.T.M

I did not know about the spam rules here.

sbarrkum
sbarrkum
2 months ago

China selects first foreign astronauts, two Pakistani candidates to train, one to join space station mission

The two selected Pakistani candidates, Muhammad Zeeshan Ali and Khurram Daud, will soon travel to China to undergo training as backup astronauts. Upon completing all required training and passing assessments, one of them will participate in a spaceflight mission as a payload specialist, becoming the first foreign astronaut to enter China’s space station, according to the release.

https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202604/1359564.shtml

Kabir
2 months ago
Reply to  sbarrkum

A great achievement for Pakistan.

In other news:

“New Delhi criticises ‘poor taste’ Trump post calling India a ‘hellhole'”

https://www.dawn.com/news/1994657/new-delhi-criticises-poor-taste-trump-post-calling-india-a-hellhole

Not that I’m endorsing President Trump’s statement but it should provide a reality check to some of the hardcore Indian nationalists on this site.

BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
2 months ago

Thing is I am not really interested in Pakistan but if certain Pakistanis like to throw shade at Indian – reality checks are pending.

BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
2 months ago
Reply to  X.T.M

Like I said, it is starting with the shade. I made no reply to ‘s initial comment.

Tbh I didn’t even make a comment to this post. Again started with the “sem2sem” and referencing some Haryanvi TV show he saw 15 years ago.

Last edited 2 months ago by Bombay Badshah
RecoveringNewsJunkie
RecoveringNewsJunkie
2 months ago
Reply to  BombayBadshah

I hear where you’re coming from – Kabir’s sem2sem was provocative, but must you always take the bait and go in directions that are …low signal? There are ways to call his BS out without serving up fingerpointing opportunities to him on a platter. Think about it.

BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
2 months ago
Reply to  X.T.M

For what it’s worth, honour killing was big in Haryana too at a point but has reduced to an extent.

I don’t think people realize it but Haryana, Delhi, Western UP have grown a lot over the last decade(primarily due to NCR expansion) or so and that has reined in the bad elements to an extent.

Interesting this region is dominated by Jaats and Gurjars, who are very prevalent in Pak Punjab too so maybe common culture?

Haryana has a higher GDP pci and HDI than Indonesia.

formerly brown
formerly brown
2 months ago
Reply to  BombayBadshah

If i remember, the haryana honour killings were related to young people marrying in the same jat gotra.
Marriage in same gotra doesn’t generally happen every where.

Tamilnadu the killings are caste based wherein the landlord castes object to their daughters being married to Dalits.
It started in karnataka, but the government has brought a rule to punish these killers.

BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
2 months ago

I am not taking the bait. I enjoy replying back lol.

And I do make sure my replies have actual factual data so that they are high signal.

BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
2 months ago
Reply to  X.T.M

I would argue that a lot of Pakistan’s issues stems with this “self perception”. A lot of Pakistanis, especially older ones seem to think themselves as a “peer” of India.

Thing is even if Pakistan starts resolving its economic issues, it will always be one or two “weight classes” below India due to demographics, geography, history etc.

In a way it is a circular loop, where this overreach leads to the gap widening.

Another 15 years more and this “self perception” should change in a healthier way where they realize their peers should be the likes of Indonesia, Egypt, Bangladesh and they re-calibrate their ambitions accordingly.

Pakistani GenZ seem to understand this. It is older Pakistanis who grew up with a relative level of parity (and cricket/hockey wins) who are unable to come to terms with the new reality.

That is why you see the dissonance on this site where some Pakistanis comment that not an inch of Pakistan will be taken away as they are a nuclear power but then also have expansionist ambitions regarding Kashmir when India too is a nuclear power, and a more advanced one at that.

Last edited 2 months ago by Bombay Badshah
BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
2 months ago

As far as Donald Trump’s comment on India being a hellhole goes, notice how the fact that China too was called a hellhole was omitted.

Of course, abbu China cannot be offended.

And as far as saying stuff – Trump says whatever he wants.

If saying something made it true, I would have said that I am dating Ana DeArmas.

That statement was made with regards to immigration. Guess which country has immigration banned by Trump and which doesn’t.

Let me help out with official US government links.

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/News/visas-news/immigrant-visa-processing-updates-for-nationalities-at-high-risk-of-public-benefits-usage.html

President Trump has made clear that immigrants must be financially self-sufficient and not be a financial burden to Americans.

The Department of State is undergoing a full review of all screening and vetting policies to ensure that immigrants from high-risk countries do not unlawfully utilize welfare in the United States or become a public charge.

Effective January 21, 2026, the Department of State paused all visa issuances to immigrant visa applicants who are nationals of the following countries:

…,Nigeria, North Macedonia, Pakistan, Republic of the Congo,…

RecoveringNewsJunkie
RecoveringNewsJunkie
2 months ago
Reply to  BombayBadshah

its a weird superioirty complex stemming from an inferiority complex – manifests itself in brazenly delusional rhetoric.

BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
2 months ago
Reply to  X.T.M

He just likes doing ungli as can be seen by the Bengal election post.

RecoveringNewsJunkie
2 months ago
Reply to  BombayBadshah

His agenda is nowhere near as subtle as he likes to think. But thats ok.

Even biased hatchet-job criticism adds value – At the end of the day, ‘criticism’ is a feedback loop that helps strengthen a society. Even if it is one-eyed.

Kabir
2 months ago

Please! Your agenda with respect to Pakistan is clear to any neutral observer.

So don’t throw these accusations around. It’s hypocritical.

trackback

[…] Calvin on Why is Pakistani Culture obsessed with Policing Female Virginity? […]

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
2 months ago

Nations that do not stricly control female sexuality pretty much decline and get erased within 3 generations.

We are already seeing the effects of this decline worldwide, rock bottom fertility, dual working parent households, broken relationships, brokem marriages and broken homes. Creates a broken generation which gets worse in the next and gets taken over.

Those who understand female sexuality and male sexuality know that female sexuality must be controlled to create and long lasting well functioning society.

Obsession about controlling female virginity is basically a sign of a society that will outlast the ones that don’t.

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
2 months ago
Reply to  X.T.M

Read my detailed other comment. I have explained the reasoning.

This is not misgyny as some claim as that’s in fashion, but a deep understanding of how societies work.

Most people will sooner or later come around to this thinking.

Nivedita
Nivedita
2 months ago
Reply to  X.T.M

This is a highly misogynistic and offensive comment. I’m horrified, disgusted and angered. Please do not allow such nonsense under the guise of free speech.

RecoveringNewsJunkie
2 months ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

Those who understand female sexuality and male sexuality know that female sexuality must be controlled to create and long lasting well functioning society.

Obsession about controlling female virginity is basically a sign of a society that will outlast the ones that don’t.

I mean…I’m rendered speechless by the virulent misogyny and regressive thinking on display here.

RecoveringNewsJunkie
2 months ago

This is what I mean by a lack of ‘modernity’. If you can be brazen enough to advocate for ‘control of female sexuality’ for the …’greater good’, i.e. less than equal rights based on gender, you are barely a shuffle away from similar discrimination against the non-believers, and so on.

This is a textbook example of why Pakistan continues to flail away as a nation-state. It needs its next generation to somehow educate itself and rise out of the swamp of regressive thinking.

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
2 months ago

Why do you keep saying “modernity” without even knowing what it means.

Just call ‘modernity’ by its correct name: “western culture”

Last edited 2 months ago by S Qureishi
BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
2 months ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

Except for the fact that this “modernity” is also present in the rich Far Eastern countries as well as the richer Muslim countries – including your favorites Turkey (TFR 1.48) and Iran (TFR 1.68).

Nothing to do with “western”. People become rich, TFRs fall down.

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
2 months ago
Reply to  BombayBadshah

>this “modernity” is also present in the rich Far Eastern countries

Still western culture. Never saw a modern chinese woman dress like a Chinese woman.

BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
2 months ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

“Modern” western women are also not dressing in gowns except for special occasions.

Modern wear is just convenient.

RecoveringNewsJunkie
2 months ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

Urban ‘Modern’ India stands tall to contradict you with its millions.

You are a close-minded person who thinks in binaries. It is eminently possible to stay rooted to your culture, faith, heritage, while embracing knowledge, literacy and technology.

BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
2 months ago

Even the far Eastern countries as well as the richer Muslim countries? GCC countries have European level TFRs.

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
2 months ago

>Urban ‘Modern’ India stands tall to contradict you with its millions.

Don’t usually see Indian men wearing dhoti, kurta, pajama, or formally achkan until it’s someone’s wedding. Watched a few Indian cities drive through, all people were just indians in western attire speaking broken Hinglish.

Western culture has prevailed globally because of western military and economic hegemony for the past 250 years. I know it’s hard for proud people of other countries to accept this.

It’s very much like seeing Hindu nationalists tripping out when I start pointing examples that how ingrained and deep rooted Muslim culture is within their own cultural traditions and languages – that they didn’t even know about.

Last edited 2 months ago by S Qureishi
RecoveringNewsJunkie
2 months ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

Watched a few Indian cities drive through, all people were just indians in western attire speaking broken Hinglish.

You extrapolate ‘western culture’ from apparel and some drive by youtube videos? That’s………laughably silly. India is the country where its space scientists break a coconut before sending their shuttle to the moon. And so do captains of Industry and captains of cricket teams. Indian culture’s beating heart does not depend on wearing ‘shalwar kameez’ in public, or a Saree.

Its really quite something to see what delusions RW Pakistanis will jump through in order to somehow fabricate a feeling where they can claim Pakistan is ‘better’ at. Whether its holding on to traditions or “resisting” western culture.

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
2 months ago

Its not a “silly idea”. Language and clothing are the first signs of cultural change. Once you start defining what “modernity” is in some detail, you will soon realize that all of it originates from the West.

RecoveringNewsJunkie
2 months ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

yeah naah, I disagree.

Calvin
Calvin
2 months ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

Please read more on why fertility is decreasing worldwide. Capitalism, increased expenses, and move away from agricultual to industrial economies is why fertility rates are going down worldwide, including in Pakistan. Marriages are seeing more divorces, since women no longer feel pressured to stay in abusive or unhappy marriages.

I think you need to read more about this than listen to whatever red pill content you seem to be consuming. Again please read more, on this.

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
2 months ago
Reply to  Calvin

Move away from agricultual to industrial economies has absolutely nothing to do with dropping fertility – on the contrary it increased it. This move happened in most countries 150-50 years ago and human population literally exploded.

The decline is due to feminism, and post industrialism.

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
2 months ago
Reply to  X.T.M

Are Women allowed to choose their sexual partners or not?

Would you do the same thing to your mother, daughter, sister or wife if they expressed their sexual freedom?

Here is an anecdote but teaches a good lesson:

An associate of mine – white anglo saxon, very liberal has a daughter who he has a troubled relationship with. He is rich, while she is spoiled, he raised her like traditional WASPs do and allowed full freedom to make her own sexual decisions. While he spent most of his life working and earning a fortune, his daughter is spoiled and does not have the same drive or ambition, instead choosing to live a good partying life on his generous dime.

Recently he was troubled so I asked why and he revealed that his daughter has taken up a relationship with a Central African young man who is a recent immigrant and has no legal status. She is smitten by him and he is pressuring her to marry him in order to make his status in the country legal so they can continue their romantic relationship. He is very worried that his daughter is being taken advantage of, but she clearly does not see it that way, and is hurrying to marry him.

So basically, the guy’s entire bloodline is at stake, the life and mental well being of his daughter is at stake, his entire fortune he racked up over his life which she would inherit BTW is at stake – because he did not put his foot down and control his daughter because his society deemed it inappropriate.

So if you asked me (and he asked me the same): will I control the sexual freedom of my mother, daughter, sister, wife and I will say: F yes, there is no other way. Firstly, my wife is mine alone, so what sexual freedom? My sister is directly related to me and her well being, financial or other wise is my responsibility so yeah any man she ever date would have to be vetted by me. And my daughter is directly depenedent on me since the day she was born, so I decide who she will date or marry and while she can choose, I will make the final decision based on the suitability of the candidate that is more than just ‘tall, dark, handsome’. Obviously I am not a puritan but these are the maximalist positions I will take and so I negotiate down from here.

Most people can live their entire lives espousing these ridiculous liberal notions about sexuaility, but see the light when they actually have to face these conundrums on a personal level. Very much like college students espousing communism and ‘taking over the means of production’ but getting a dose of reality when they get that first paycheque net of all the taxes.

Last edited 2 months ago by S Qureishi
S Qureishi
S Qureishi
2 months ago
Reply to  X.T.M

Threat of disownement for females.

Threat of violence, lawsuits, vandalism etc to the foreign men trying to woo the said females. (Most non serious guys will spooked out by it)

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
2 months ago
Reply to  X.T.M

Yes, the threat of disownment for the females may not work because many females actually secretly fantasize about being kidnapped by their lovers. So on the offchance that the woman in question does not have these inclinations, it may work on her. But I think the threat to the males wooing them is more likely to work to shoo them away.

After that, you can’t do much.

Pre industrial rural societies resorted to violence, because they are tribal and tribes are extremely important and honor is an important part of how disputes are settled between these tribes. Such types of violence and dispute resolution are harmful for the stability of the nation state so they must be condemned. On a moral level, even Islam allows females the right to choose her husband against all these tribal customs.

BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
2 months ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

If you are living in the west, you and your daughter (hypothetical or real) are the “foreigners” and the men will most probably be “native”.

As in the case of Pakistani women dating Latino men described in the post.

Calvin
Calvin
2 months ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

Are you living in Pakistan presently?

Kabir
2 months ago
Reply to  Calvin

I believe he lives abroad in the “West”.

formerly brown
formerly brown
2 months ago
Reply to  Calvin

on a side note. who is winning in Assam? polls say Hemanta…

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
2 months ago
Reply to  X.T.M

I am not condoning any crime, honor killings are horrible since human life is sacred and anyone taking it must have a really good reason for it (self-defence). It is immoral.

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
2 months ago
Reply to  X.T.M

I was answering the other part of the question

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
2 months ago

Sex works differently for males and females, females have more to lose since they are the ones that get pregnant for 9 months and have to then tend to the baby for years after. The man just needs to shoot his shot and he can walk away. This is why sex for women is fundamentally different than for men, and that choosing the wrong mate could be disastrous.

We know as fact that patriarchy builds successful nations. No nation ever became successful through matriarchy. In patriarchy, the patriarch controls the household and is responsible for the well being of everyone its members. The household consists of the females under his guardianship. If he allows the women of his household free access to have sex with other males, the eventual pregnancy that results will become his responsibility while the father can just walk away. This is disastrous for the household and an undue burden. This is why the Patriarch must control sexuality of his females, and always vet the husband to ensure that his lineage survives and the household does not vanish due to bad decisions of the females.

This is now playing out in the West. The State has become the Patriarch, and allows its females an unrestricted sexuality. The first generation of free females choose the wrong mates, and resulted in widespread single motherhood, which became a drain on the State, but also on the mothers who were now raising chidlren in broken homes. The next generation of women saw the hardwork in childrearing and completely checked out.

This is the end result when female sexuality is allowed to run rampant.
This is why virginity control is important.

RecoveringNewsJunkie
2 months ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

This is Zakir Naik types pseudo-modern fundamentalist preacher talking points. What utter nonsense.

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
2 months ago

Can’t refute it, calls nonsense.

If this was 2005, and you would be calling this nonsense, it would be understandable. But it’s 2026 and this is so apparent and self evident.. denying it only hurts your credibility.

BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
2 months ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

Countries have actually become successful in the modern era by lowering restrictions on women and making them join the workforce leading to growth and thus bringing them out of poverty.

Bangladesh surpassing Pakistan from their low base is simply due to more female labour participation rate.

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
2 months ago
Reply to  BombayBadshah

Women work outside, hire other women to work at home, both their “product” is now measured by GDP thereby increasing it. Women performing the same work at their own house — no GDP increase despite the same total real output.

This is called GDP padding. In kirket terms, you know when Sachin takes a single to bring up his hundred at the last ball of the innings instead of slashing it for 4 and risking his wicket.

RecoveringNewsJunkie
2 months ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

Arguing in favor of a re-prioritizing household work, primacy of family structures is one thing. Attempting to do so, by regressive unequal gender rights is quite different.

BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
2 months ago

TFR decrease if needed to be addressed should be via concessions to married couples in terms of tax benefits, loans, making it acceptable for men to share in the housework, more automation etc.

I am not saying immigration as it is a temporary fix because even the poorer countries will go below replacement rate soon.

Sending the women back to the kitchen is on another level.

I’d rather populations decrease. And what is wrong with decreasing populations anyway?

Nivedita
Nivedita
2 months ago
Reply to  BombayBadshah

+ 1

Earth is burdened enough as is. And people who don’t want kids shouldn’t have them. Unfair to the children. They won’t be raised well by absentee parents and end up as burdens to society at large.

Besides, with prices skyrocketing, most folks atleast in urban India have been priced out of affordable homes, schools and burdened with long commutes. No incentive to have kids.

BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
2 months ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

Sachin was not out LBW at Mohali, won the MoM and then went on to win the cup.

Man’s been retired now for over 12 years.

Get over it.

No amount of drawing lines on the DRS image in MS Paint will change that.

A more modern example would be Sahibzada Farhan whose slowing down for a century cost Pakistan a shot at the knockouts in the recent WC.

BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
2 months ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

It is LITERALLY not the same total real output.

If your hypothetical woman is doing the work at home, no one is doing the outside work.

Bad economics alongside misogyny lol.

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
2 months ago
Reply to  BombayBadshah

Real output is measured by total work done. GDP does not count all types of work (household work, mother’s chidlcare, female relatoinship maintenance, oldage parental care etc)

These are the ‘opportunity cost’ of working outside, and if working outside is not paying a premium, you have just created all negative externalities of a dual income household on the family without creating any meaningful benefit.

BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
2 months ago
Reply to  X.T.M

And those costs should be reduced in other ways – automation, making it socially acceptable for men to share in the household work, tax benefits, loans etc.

Reducing women’s rights is just a barbaric solution.

What next – justification for slavery?

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
2 months ago
Reply to  X.T.M

Specializion and division of labor – the foundation of modern capitalist economies has eeked out as much productivity from ‘individual human units’ as possible to maximize GDP. Most people are inherently lazy so forcing them into an economy where both man and woman needs to get a job eeks out slightly more total productivity.. however at tremendous social cost to the family. People will justify this because saying that it grants women more freedom and agency, and while that may be true, has it really resulted in more female happiness? A stronger society with a bright future? No. Time is showing that to not be the case and more people are now noticing.

Last edited 2 months ago by S Qureishi
BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
2 months ago
Reply to  X.T.M

Everything has a cost.

If people want kids, they will have to make sacrifices – on their time, on their money, on their other relationships.

If they don’t, that’s fine too.

Women and for that matter men, should be allowed to do whatever they want – have kids/not have kids, do a job/laze around.

There will be consequences – both negative or positive but again that is on what they chose.

Even something like OnlyFans – obviously there will be consequences – possible loss of social networks, smaller dating pool (for serious relationships), lack of alternate job opportunities when looking for an exit/aging out – but that choice should be there.

Instead of OnlyFans, one could always work at McDonalds and make way less money but then those are the consequences of that choice.

BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
2 months ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

@X.T.M: Are we really going to allow this incel speak here?

Since they don’t have to become mothers or secure a mate, then why not become whores?

The most feminist countries are the most modern advanced societies in the world.

If those countries were so bad, then people from more patriarchal regressive countries wouldn’t be flocking to live there.

People from third world regressive societies migrate to rich liberal societies and want to replicate their regressive values there, without realizing those same regressive values are what is keeping their country “third world”.

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
2 months ago
Reply to  BombayBadshah

>The most feminist countries are the most modern advanced societies in the world.

Two points since, I am not sure if you can even comprehend

1) All feminist societies have declining birth rates

2) Some of the most feminist societies like Sweden and Germany are now seeing what happens when patriarchy meets matriarchy. Those who know, know.

BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
2 months ago
Reply to  X.T.M

Eeeesh. Bad precedent.

This is the guy who justified the Iranian government’s excesses because they were Muslim.

Even the rightest of the right of the Saffronate are not justifying untouchability or sati here.

Falling into the paradox of tolerance here.

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
2 months ago
Reply to  X.T.M

Thanks, I can write a post next week

RecoveringNewsJunkie
2 months ago
Reply to  X.T.M

I support this. However authors should be required to hold up said ‘freedom of expression’. Kabir’s petty deletion of my comment contributions, simply because quote ‘he doesn’t like me’ is a case in point.

Allowing such…….questionable opinions the spotlight, without the requisite responsibility to similarly provide space for dissent – is a slippery slope.

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
2 months ago

I never asked to delete anyone’s comments. I just stop engaging if it’s rage baiting or devolves into youtube comment section territory. This is the internet, it should be free for all ideas as long as people are not slandering others.

RecoveringNewsJunkie
2 months ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

On this specific point, we may be in agreement.

RecoveringNewsJunkie
2 months ago
Reply to  X.T.M

Its fine, I understand the utility. Just wanted to point out the risks involved in having multiple Kabir types dominating the space a la Nicholas Taleb’s ‘domination of the intolerant minority’.

Kabir
2 months ago

“Multiple Kabir types”–

Passive aggression.

I’m not a “type”. There have been mutiple occasions when I’ve disagreed with Q and El Khawaja.

There are multiple Indian nationalist authors. But the prospect of another Pakistani author gets you all hot and bothered.

RecoveringNewsJunkie
2 months ago
Reply to  Kabir

If you had bothered to read through correctly, I actually supported XTM’s idea of making Q an author – so no, I have no issues with another Pakistani author being added. My concern is with inconsistencies in policing so-called “freedom of speech”.

If we are elevating someone to voice such drastic views advocating gender discrimination, and allow them to use BP as a stage for such regressive views, at a minimum, the comments cannot be censored by said author simply to head off criticism or commentary that they ‘don’t like’.

That was my point.

But hey, you would rather believe that I have problems with “Pakistani authors”. Because facts and logic take a backseat to your ‘dislike’. You do you. Get well soon.

Kabir
2 months ago

“If you had bothered to read through correctly”– Don’t condescend to me. I have a degree in English Literature. Reading comprehension is not my problem.

I objected to the line “multiple ‘Kabir types'”. I’m not a “type”. I’m an individual.

XTM has made it clear that authors have the right to moderate their threads as they wish. That would presumably apply to Q as well. There has never been absolute freedom of speech on BP.

“Get well soon”– This is also passive aggressive. I’ve just written a post defining passive aggression. Perhaps you should read it.

RecoveringNewsJunkie
2 months ago
Reply to  Kabir

So if your reading comprehension is not a problem, where is the withdrawal of your clearly false accusation that I have a ‘problem with Pak authors’, and an apology for the same.

Or is hurling such nonsense “halal” because I am quote ‘top of your enemy list’? Would that be passive or active aggressive?

Falsely claiming that any sort of disagreement is “anti-Pakistan” or “anti-National” is the cloak that extremists use by the way. Accuse someone of being a ‘traitor’ and then airbrush them out of the conversation. How………splendidly totalitarian that is.

Kabir
2 months ago

Criticizing the reading comprehension of someone with a degree in English Literature is beyond ridiculous.

Do read the thread on passive aggression. It is bullying.

XTM made it a precedent post.

Kabir
2 months ago

This is passive aggressive. Talking about someone behind their back is the literal definition of passive aggression.

I have banned you from my threads not because I “don’t like you” but because you have consistently made anti-Pakistan comments and questioned my center-left credentials. I will not allow anyone to get personal with me.

Neither will I give you yet another space to insult my Field Marshal or use words like “slavery of the awaam” etc.

Remember you used the word “taqqiya” towards me. That is utterly unforgivable.

So please introspect a bit about what you have done that has led to my instituting the policy that I have.

RecoveringNewsJunkie
2 months ago
Reply to  Kabir

No amount of weasel words will obfuscate your agenda – its quite transparent. You were the one caught redhanded spotlighting racist comments after fishing them out of trash – on my thread. You had to apologize to me for insulting my education, and my English, in order to get your author privileges restored. I could go on, but your shenanigans are tiresome and boring to me.

You keep trying to milk this ‘Taqqiya’ thing, when I have already clarified multiple times that it was meant as a synonym for obfuscation and nothing more than that. What’s more, I also apologized if it caused offense. But your repeated insistence on dredging this to weaponize it, says more about you than anything else.

Kabir
2 months ago

“You keep trying to milk this ‘taqqiya’ thing”– Using this word for a Muslim is unforgivable and Islamophobic.

“I apologized if it caused offence”– that’s not an apology. How one reaches adulthood without learning that “I’m sorry IF you were offended” is not an apology is shocking.

Anyway, the point is you need to introspect about why I’ve banned you from my threads. Your behavior is responsible for it not just that I “don’t like you”. Though for the record, you are at the top of my enemy’s list.

If my “shenanigans” are “boring” to you, why do you keep trying to comment on my threads? Don’t push your luck. Even one word from you on my posts goes straight into the trash.

Last edited 2 months ago by Kabir
Nivedita
Nivedita
2 months ago
Reply to  X.T.M

Please do not allow such horrifyingly misogynistic views under free speech. BB is right, sets a very bad precedent.

Kabir
2 months ago
Reply to  Nivedita

Honestly, BB has no business criticizing anyone else. He’s the one who threatened to hold a gun to someone’s head.

I say that without endorsing Q’s views at all.

BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
2 months ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

Your heroes Iran and Turkey have declining birth rates too.

If having babies becomes a choice rather than a compulsion, nothing wrong with that.

And what is happening in Sweden and Germany? Muslim migrants from poorer regressive societies are unable to mesh in with advanced first world societies? Maybe they should go back.

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
2 months ago
Reply to  BombayBadshah

Both Iran and Turkey have high female literacy and even higher female post grad. Delays marriage, shorten child bearing window.

I never said they are sustainable either, they are just marginally better than Eruope.

This is a growing problem for most modern societies.

BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
2 months ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

Issue is as a country gets richer TFRs inevitably fall as women have rights. This is seen throughout the world for different races and religions.

You can have low TFR or economic success, not both.

According to you, would a hypothetical society that is a first world country with a reasonably high TFR be the definition of utopia (never mind how to get both)?

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
2 months ago
Reply to  BombayBadshah

Corelation is not causation. Wealth and low TFR are co-related but not caused. There is only one reason for a lower TFR – declining patriarchal norms as the ‘state’ takes over the role of the patriarch, all other reasons are downstream of this.

BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
2 months ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

So a country with wealth and high TFR would be a “patriarchal” state and an ideal state in your opinion?

Nivedita
Nivedita
2 months ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

There is no incentive for women to marry especially given as they are seen as glorified maids and baby making machines.

Financial Independence ensures that this disgusting mentality that you endorse is forced to give way to equality. Just look at the Parsis as an example. Higher the education, less likely is a woman willing to “settle” just for financial reasons.

Kabir
2 months ago
Reply to  Nivedita

I don’t endorse Q’s conservative positions.

But one “incentive” for women to marry–in Islamic and other conservative societies– is that sex outside marriage is absolutely forbidden. Women (like men) have sex drives.

Marriage also gives women status and social security. It is far preferable to be the mistress of one’s own home than to be an unwanted burden on your parents or on your brother and brother’s wife.

In the context of the subcontinent, the home belongs to the daughter-in-law and not the daughter.

sbarrkum
sbarrkum
2 months ago
Reply to  Kabir

In the context of the subcontinent, the home belongs to the daughter-in-law and not the daughter.

Differs in the the South and Northern SL. The goes to the daughter. The son is supposed to get a job and find woman with a house.

It is far preferable to be the mistress of one’s own home

Plenty of single or divorced women who live alone or with their children in SL. No stigma of living alone without a male in SL. Even in villages

Kabir
2 months ago
Reply to  sbarrkum

Perhaps I should have clarified that I meant Pakistan and North India.

You just have to go back to our folk literature to understand that the house belongs to the son and to the son’s wife. When a woman gets married, she belongs to her husband’s family and not to her father’s family. There is a whole ritual in Pakistani weddings called the “rukhsati” (“rukhsat” means “departure” in Urdu). I believe this comes from the Hindu ritual of “bidaai”.

In one famous Punjabi folk song “Sada chiriyan da chamba”, the departing bride literally hands the keys of the house back to her mother. The understanding is that she will now be a guest any time she returns. A married woman is by default part of her husband’s family and not her father’s.

Nivedita
Nivedita
2 months ago
Reply to  Kabir

Unarguably so, but with those conservative norms gradually getting dismantled (atleast in India), and increasing financial independence, women are no longer dependent on parents and other family members.

Things like the status of women in society, being a burden etc is a consequence of the patriarchal lens. I don’t agree with it. Possibly I’m still in a minority since my upbringing was very liberal with zero restrictions (gender played no role).

Personally I am socially conservative, but I don’t judge women or men who choose to live a libertine lifestyle, as long as it isn’t forced upon others.

Kabir
2 months ago
Reply to  Nivedita

Of course, financial independence makes a big difference.

But I have seen enough examples in even upper-class Pakistani families of divorced women being made to feel that they were a burden on their brothers and sisters-in-law.

To give you one small personal anecdote: My mother’s younger sister (Khala) was conventionally beautiful (typical Kashmiri-Punjabi features, fair skin etc). She was married off at a relatively young age to an older Pakistani-American cardiologist living in the US. It was not a happy marriage and she remained childless. When he passed away (ironically of a heart attack), she returned to Pakistan. Even as a widow (who had plenty of dollars of her own and was an American citizen to boot), she was made to feel that she was a burden on her natal family.

In contrast, my mother–being considered “dark” and thus not as beautiful– was told from a very young age that she had to become a medical doctor and thus have a way to support herself if she couldn’t get a “suitable boy” to marry her. Ironically, she met my father (a “love match) and had two sons. But of course, the medical career provided her with a certain amount of security should her marriage ever have become untenable.

These are women raised in the 1960s.

sbarrkum
sbarrkum
2 months ago
Reply to  Kabir

This whole idea of extended family disappeared in my generation (I am 67)

My oldested sister is unmarried (64) lives alone. She is small made 4’10” and skinny and no fear. Her next sister married lives about an hour away.

The youngest got married and went of the UK. Immediately after her daughter was born she got post natal depression. In three months her husband sent her and daughter back to SL. Sister could not hold a job (accountant) as get depression on an off. Sister and Daughter lived alone in an annexe

When daughter turned 21 her UK citizenship kicked in and she left SL to attend Uni. Mother joined her a little while later. Both now live in the UK as the daughter has a decent job (financial controller)

Its different in SL, almost like the west

Nivedita
Nivedita
2 months ago
Reply to  Kabir

Its a mindset issue that your example perfectly illustrates. What an unpleasant and sad situation for your aunt to have faced.

The unfortunate skin colour based discrimination turned out to be a blessing in disguise for your mum! A slice of destiny too perhaps…

But yes, I too have seen such regressive mindsets at play within my extended family and outside of it. This mindset problem is universal imo and will take time to resolve.

It’s sad at so many levels because women are fettered by so many chains and are unable to achieve their full potential.

Last edited 2 months ago by Agni
Kabir
2 months ago
Reply to  Nivedita

Yes. My aunt has passed away now (from lung cancer). But she didn’t have a happy life. Partly because her one ambition in life was to be a mother and that was something that her destiny didn’t have in store for her.

I just wanted to add that she wasn’t an uneducated woman. Before marriage, she had obtained a Masters degree in English Literature.

At least in Pakistan, a woman’s status is still largely determined through marriage and by becoming the mother of sons.

Kabir
2 months ago
Reply to  X.T.M

Yes, son preference is a big deal. The idea is that a son is an asset. He will be economically productive and will take care of you in your old age (or rather his wife will).

A daughter is a liability. She will have to be married off and then will belong to her husband’s family. She will provide him with sons and will not be economically productive for her own natal family.

When you ask people in Pakistan “How many children do you have?”, they normally tell you the number of sons they have. Daughters are considered irrelevant. Of course this doesn’t happen among the more modern and liberalized classes.

Kabir
2 months ago
Reply to  X.T.M

Son preference is a pretty mainstream concept in anthropology.

There’s also the question of dowry (which strictly speaking is not an Islamic thing but a South Asian thing). Having to pay for your daughter’s wedding and provide the groom with a dowry is a significant expense for many people.

Of course the idea that your sons and their wives will take care of you in your old age doesn’t always work out. My mother took care of my maternal grandmother far more than her brothers or their wives did.

Kabir
2 months ago
Reply to  X.T.M

Even in Pakistan, women are very close to their sisters.

I was reading a Substack recently where someone had mentioned that “phuppos” (father’s sister) have this reputation for creating trouble, being resentful etc. “Khalas” (mother’s sister) don’t have this reputation. This is obviously stereotyped but that’s the reputation.

I have no doubt people are emotionally closer to their mother’s families. Children are generally closer to their mother then they are to their father. Even I was closer to my maternal grandmother than to my paternal one.

But the idea remains that your real family is your paternal one. A married woman legally belongs to her husband’s family and not her father’s. Perhaps this is a South Asian concept.

I’ve seen Indian soap operas where mothers say to their married daughters “You left this house on the wedding palanquin, you can only return on the funeral bier”.

sbarrkum
sbarrkum
2 months ago
Reply to  X.T.M

Yes, son preference is a big deal.

The same in India. Seen in stats,106.375 males per 100 females (or roughly 940 females per 1,000 males),

The norm is females should be more.

Sri Lanka has a female-majority population, with females making up 51.7% and males 48.3%. The national sex ratio has declined, indicating a continued female surplus, with approximately 93.3 males for every 100 females

Kabir
2 months ago
Reply to  sbarrkum

Yes. India has an issue with sex-selective abortions.

A research by Pew Research Center based on Union government data indicates foeticide of at least 9 million females in the years 2000–2019. The research found that 86.7% of these foeticides were by Hindus (80% of the population), followed by Sikhs (1.7% of the population) with 4.9%, and Muslims (14% of the population) with 6.6%. The research also indicated an overall decline in preference for sons in the time period.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-selective_abortion

It’s a lot harder to get an abortion in Pakistan, given that it is an Islamic Republic.

Kabir
2 months ago
Reply to  X.T.M

I think it’s generally harder to get an abortion in Pakistan since I believe Islam frowns on it.

The Wiki article on sex-selective abortion notes that in Pakistan female infants are often killed at birth. The Edhi Foundation has noted cases of this in Karachi.

I’m not defending son preference but there is an economic logic to it. Sons are economic assets while daughters are liabilities– you raise them and then they benefit someone else’s family not your own.

Even in fairly upper middle-class families, son preference exists. My mother tells many stories of how her mother essentially trained her daughters to serve their brothers (and later their wives). My mother and her sister were both educated women. My grandmother took great pride in how smart my mother was. But the patriarchy was still real and the boys came first.

formerly brown
formerly brown
2 months ago
Reply to  Kabir

india has changed beyond newspaper headlines.
Scanning for determination of gender of fetus is banned and is punishable by law. Every hospital and nursing home has this struck on the walls.

With rising education, jobs and mobility it is girls who choose boys for marriage. Historic biases are fading fast even in the Hindi heartland.

With the number of kids being reduced to 1 or 2 many a girls are supporting parents after marriage and this is not frowned upon.
Hope resident indians in this forum will respond.

naam de guerre
naam de guerre
2 months ago
Reply to  formerly brown

Yeah things are not even remotely close to as bad as they were less than 15-20 years ago. I have relatives in Haryana and Western UP (some of the most patriarchal parts of N. India) and no one has second thoughts about the gender of their kids any more. There is perhaps a lingering preference but there are no more illegal abortions etc. And mind you, these are semi-urban, rural folks from Jat villages I am talking about.

Nivedita
Nivedita
2 months ago
Reply to  formerly brown

Yes, it’s gotten better. But for a mindset reset there’s some way to go.

As NdG says, there may still be a lingering preference, but female foeticide is no longer rampant due to the penalties involved. The wealthy apparently go to Thailand or elsewhere to get their dirty job done (this is anecdotal data from a few obgyn’s).

My personal observations are limited to the South of the Vindhyas where the norm seems to be more of a single child preference independent of gender. This itself suggests a gradual move towards gender parity as far as offspring are concerned.

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
2 months ago
Reply to  Nivedita

Thanks for proving my point about TFR and Patriarchy. Without patriarchy, TFR will decline and societies will fall apart in 3 to 4 generations.

Nivedita
Nivedita
2 months ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

Correlation isn’t causation. Do you have data along with a few models perhaps to prove your point?

Last edited 2 months ago by Agni
sbarrkum
sbarrkum
2 months ago

In India marriage restrictions, taboos are creating a section of sexually frustrated youth specially males. When they see middle class modern young women moving around freely the frustration and anger becomes worse.

Then it ends in horrendous gang rapes like that of a few years back. One of the young men put is hand thru the vagina and pulled out the young woman’s innards.

Kabir
2 months ago

I don’t agree with all of Q’s conservative positions. Personally, I have nothing against OnlyFans–if the person making it is a consenting adult.

My limited point was that it is unfair to single out “Pakistani culture” as being obsessed with virginity. This is an unwarranted assertion.

For the record, Islam forbids sex outside of marriage–for both men and women.

Not just Islam, this is the official position of Christianity and Judaism as well. It’s just that the “West” has secularized to the extent that religious values are not all that important and pre-marital sex is the norm.

I would venture to guess that–even in India– conservative families still believe their daughters should be virgins before entering into an arranged marriage. Obviously, this doesn’t apply to modern liberal people in Delhi or Mumbai.

Q is correct that there are biological differences between men and women. A man can have sex with whoever and doesn’t really face consequences. A woman always has the chance of conceiving a child.

trackback

[…] Kabir on Why is Pakistani Culture obsessed with Policing Female Virginity? […]

trackback

[…] thesis: female sexuality must be controlled to sustain a civilisation. Pressed on enforcement, he listed disownment, violence, lawsuits, vandalism. Finally when pressed on honour killing, he admitted it […]

Brown Pundits
167
0
Would love your thoughts, please comment.x
()
x