The traditional Mercator worldview slices our imagination. It distorts the unity of the Indo-Iranian zone; a civilizational belt that has resisted rupture, even across millennia of empire, religion, and state.

And yet, if you look again, linguistically, genetically, geographically, the facts are harder to ignore. Pakistan sits at the inflection point.
To its west: Iranian languages, Pashto, Dari, Balochi, stretch across the Iranian plateau and into Central Asia, descendants of the great Avestan, Persian and Median traditions.
To its east: The rich orchard of Indo-Aryan tongues, Hindi, Punjabi, Sindhi, Gujarati, descendants of the Vedic, Prakritic, and Sanskritic worlds.

Nestled between them is a narrow band, Pashto hills, Hindko valleys, Punjabi plains, where chariots once thundered and epics were first imagined.
This is the mediation zone of the Aryan world. It is where the Eastern Indo-Europeans, who called themselves Arya, split; some flowing into the Gangetic basin, others into the Zagros highlands.
Itโs also where the EMBA (Early Middle Bronze Age) pastoralists with their wagons met the MLBA (Middle Late Bronze Age) charioteers; herders and raiders, the two pulses of the Indo-Iranian expansion. This fusion, and later fission, defines the subcontinent.
And yet, paradoxically, Pakistan, the land of the Indus Valley, the Vedic hymns, and the Achaemenid satraps, was until recently, largely tribal, semi-nomadic, and rural. It was the British, through the canal colonies, who concretised its modern agrarian identity. That sudden shift, from nomads to settled farmers, from Ghaznavid raiders to Raj-era tenants, only adds to the cultural dissonance we see today.
The languages persisted. The genes continued. But the story ruptured. So perhaps, Pakistan is not merely a โleftoverโ of British partition. Nor is it just an offshoot of Persianate Islam or an abandoned Vedic frontier. It is the living fulcrum of the Aryan experiment; an axis where chariots once turned east, and hymns echoed west.

It remains, even now, one of the most geolinguistically interesting zones in Eurasia. That is its burden and its brilliance.

The Indus forms the border between the “Indo Iranian” and “Indo-Aryan” zones.
However, more than half of Pakistan’s population is Punjabi and Sindhi (so clearly “Indo-Aryan”). Punjabis are 44.7% while Sindhis are 14.1%
The largest urban centers are also in Punjab and Sindh. Probably the only city of any significance in the “Indo Iranian” zone is Peshawar.
Peshawar is any way Hindko originally and the Iranic groups are above 20%.
Also alot of Pashtun and Baloch migration into Punjab and Sindh historically; especially amongst Muslim Sindh (Zardaris are a Baloch tribe) while my own late paternal grandfather was Qaqazai Pashtun but in Punjab for generations.
Also it is not the Indus that is the boundary but the Hindu Kush.
I was referring to the map you’ve used. Pakistan is clearly split in half. I assume the boundary between the red zone and the green zone is the river.
I know Peshawar was originally a Hindko speaking city. My own paternal grandfather was born and raised in Peshawar and was Hindko speaking. But the city has since been taken over by Pashtuns.
Pakistan’s heartland is Punjab.
No the real boundary has been the hills and mountain ranges .. the โIranicโ populations are essentially mimicking what the ancient Aryans did by tumbling down from the mountains into the lowlands, a story as old as time itself.
Probably the Elamo-Dravidianโs did the same.
Yes even Pakistani Punjab is an artifact of the canal colonies; otherwise it too would have been tribal/ nomadic. The line between rain fed Punjab and canal Punjab is essentially the Radcliffe one (Lahore-Amritsar).
Iโm not so invested in Invasion versus Migration or Indigenous.
I see the Indian Subcontinent, up until the Muslim invasions, as a syncretic organic society.
The invasions I think are more deleterious than the Aryan ones, start with Bin Qasim and end in 1947/71
Itโs hilarious when Iโm triggered by Kabir; I just tend to double down on Saffroness lol ๐
Most of the subcontinent’s Muslims are native to the land. They just changed religions.
This framing of Muslims as outsiders is a Hindutva framing and obviously very problematic.
Aurangzeb was a foreigner and he is lionised hence that does otherwise Indiaโs Muslims
I deleted your comment about being a friend to India; you have demonstrated Indiaphobism and Hinduphobia in the past. There are enough examples
Aurangzeb had Rajput ancestry.
You can delete whatever comments you want. I can realize when I’m not wanted.
But it is factually incorrect that I’m “not a friend to India”. I am against a political regime. Plenty of Indian citizens are anti BJP as well.
I have a new bhajan coming out on Spotify in a matter of days. Some “Indophobe” I am.
If you want to go down this road, almost none of your commentariat are friends of Pakistan. Do you want to shut down all discussion?
Aurangzebโs mother was Persian but he did not identify as either Hindu or India; you are obfuscating.
This is not about โnot wantingโ but also intellectual honesty and not splitting hairs
Of course, the Mughals identified as “Timurids”. No one is debating this. “Indian” is national identity. It doesn’t apply to pre modern empires.
Anyway, I will push back against this notion that one has to be a “friend” to any country in order to discuss it intellectually. That is the very opposite of intellectual freedom. Were you to actually apply this standard, there could be no discussion of Pakistan here since the majority of the commentariat openly hates Pakistan.
The singing of bhajans without devotion to the deities in question does not inoculate you from accusations of bigotry against Hindus. If tomorrow Modi recorded a devotional qawwali song and put it up on Spotify, would that in your mind render him someone who cannot be accused of harboring anti Muslim animus for other reasons?
Your comparison is flawed. Modi has Muslim blood on his hands. A pogrom occurred on his watch as CM.
I have no blood on my hands. I am an artist and an intellectual.
But you’re welcome to hold whatever opinions of me you like. The opinions of randoms on the Internet don’t really hurt me.
Auragnzeb was born of half rajput dad and a rajput mum. He was 75% rajput. Not sire how that makes him an outsider or do you not consider the maternal half of your dna relevant?
Aurangzebโs mother was Persian?
Also the Mughals were not influenced by their Indian heritage
X.T.M, the Mughals literally celebrated Holi and Diwali. They had the “Ramayana” and the “Mahabharata” translated into Persian.
One doesn’t have to like Aurangzeb but generalizing about the entire dynasty is not accurate.
This was probably the long-drawn out result of climatic catastrophes, beginning in the 22nd century BC. My personal opinion (don’t have any proof) is that the Vedic hymns (or some portions of them) are an Indo-Aryan adaptation of older “native” hymns (in a different language, perhaps some Dravidian/Burushaski dialect) that waxed lyrical about the overflowing (and now defunct) Saraswati river and all of that.
The genetic and cultural inheritors of the Indus Valley Civilization lie mostly in what is today India IMO. My own 23andme testing revealed both maternal and paternal halpgroups to be IVC-based, and my (known) ancestry is entirely from central Tamil Nadu. I think the IVC people started migrating into the subcontinent proper from the 22nd century BC onward, and then kept absorbing waves of Indo-Aryans for several centuries. What remained was therefore, unsurprisingly, a somewhat sparsely populated (until British times) semi-nomadic population.
Slight amendment to my above comment: Indo-Aryans probably arrived in the subcontinent proper in a very limited time and number of waves, but their spread (and absorption) into different parts of India that were already populated (including the deep south) likely happened in waves for several centuries.
https://www.brownpundits.com/2025/08/24/on-hindutva-the-good-and-the-bad-and-the-ugly/#comment-116919
It is very hard to unlearn a theory you have been taught since childhood.
There is compelling evidence to reject Aryan invasion theory.
It also means a very big revision as to who ‘Aryans’ are. If Vedic civilization is simply a successor or an offshoot of IVC, then Aryan = IVC.
Saraswati is the linchpin to this idea. There are problems with the linguistic aspects though. I guess conclusive resolution will only come with Indus script deciphering (hopefully it really is a script).
Till then, we’re going to have to have an open mind about things.
Sure, keep an open mind. But the current preponderance of linguistic and genetic (ancient DNA compared to modern DNA) evidence make AIT the presumptive theory.
BTW…..the point of formulating the Aryan Invasion theory was not just to explain where Vedic civilization came from and how it related to the IVC. This is one part of a global picture that seeks to explain how indigenous people speaking deeply related languages came to reside in India, Iran, Cental Asia, and almost all of Europe. From that perspective, obsessing about Saraswati will not get us anywhere nor convince any theorists in this field.
preponderance of linguistic and genetic (ancient DNA compared to modern DNA) evidence make AIT the presumptive theory.
Exactly
IVC DNA = no Steppe/Aryan
IVC =language unknown
Is your Y-DNA haplogroup j2b2*
Nope, it’s R2. I remember asking Razib many years ago on these forums, and he said R2 was probably IVC.
Mt-DNA is U2b2, so definitely IVC.
Y-DNA Haplogroup R2 is a lineage primarily found in South Asia, particularly among Indo-Aryan language speakers, and also in Central Asia and the Caucasus
R2 has a higher frequency among Indo-Aryan speakers compared to Dravidian speakers, but its connection to the broader Steppe migrations is less direct and possibly related to earlier farming populations.
Note:mtDNA M found in Mesolithic Hunter Gathers and modern South Asian
We report here the first complete mitochondrial sequences for Mesolithic hunter-gatherers from two cave sites. The mitochondrial haplogroups of pre-historic individuals were M18a and M35a. Pre-historic mitochondrial lineage M18a was found at a low prevalence among Sinhalese, Sri Lankan Tamils, and Sri Lankan Indian Tamil in the Sri Lankan population, whereas M35a lineage was observed across all Sri Lankan populations with a comparatively higher frequency among the Sinhalese. Both haplogroups are Indian derived and observed in the South Asian region and rarely outside the region.
——————–
From Chandrasekar et al 2009: Updating Phylogeny of Mitochondrial DNA Macrohaplogroup M in India:
https://www.brownpundits.com/2022/11/30/first-aasi-mtdna-genomes-from-sri-lanka-2500-and-5500-bc/
The language part is predicated on getting the dates of the split right. Is it before or after IVC collapse? If before then Aryans = IVC and the steppe DNA is some invader (from same Indo European language group) and Dravidian languages are explained by AASI DNA group of people.
The trouble with language split after post IVC and Aryan invasion is how do you then explain IVC languages completely disappearing. Unless you kill or have concentrated re education of a population this does not happen (words get borrowed etc, also language is taught by the mother).
The fudge for this is saying the Dravidian languages pick up the slack, but IVC dna spread does not correspond to Dravidian linguistic spread (much as the Tamil govt is offering prizes to prove IVC = ancient Tamil)
We have 2 major language groups and 3 major sources of DNA.
The language part is predicated on getting the dates of the split right. Is it before or after IVC collapse
What language in IVC ??
There is a script which has yet to be deciphered.
If you know differently please post a peer reviewed journal link
The Turks managed to eliminate all the native languages of Anatolia save Greek and Armenian (which are themselves intrusive, though closer than Turkish, which originated in Central Asia). So there’s one example. Probably Greek eliminated other Anatolian languages before the Turks.
Don’t think all IVC languages disappeared. I think the Dravidian languages are descended from IVC dialects.
Both the Greeks and the Turks has a strong invade, colonize, displace dynamic and Anatolia is much smaller than India with choke points. Are there strong DNA traces of these earlier language peoples?
There is no archeological evidence for IVC decline with war, only climate change.
When the population of Greeks and Armenians were expelled/genocided out they took their DNA and language with them.
The Iranian farmer DNA does not map neatly with Dravidian languages. AASI has the best overlap for that (except Sri Lanka which is AASI heavy but Sinhalese isn’t Dra.)
You might be right, (I don’t think so, but the DMK boyz will be ecstatic).
We will just have to leave it at disagreement.
The Turks are Anatolians with 10-30% Central Asian (which is 10-20% Turkic; roughly half).
I suppose if it’s that low then languages died out in Turkey without a simplistic people replacement, some sort of intense cultural suppression took place I guess.
The counter example are places like Scotland and wales where Gaelic/Welsh still hold out after about 1500 years of Anglo Saxon domination.
Yes, not very helpful. I was looking to see if there was any pattern in caste IVC/Steppe ratio, that’s murky too, for instance Jats have very high steppe DNA for their region (Punjab Haryana) .
The key point re IVC
a) One DNA data point mtDNA U2b2
b) No Language Deciphered
So just a whole lot of conjecture and hypothesis with one mtDNA data point
After building a mitochondrial DNA consensus using damage-restricted sequences, we determined that its haplogroup was U2b2, which is absent in whole mitochondrial genomes sequences available from about 400 ancient Central Asians; today, this specific haplogroup is nearly exclusive to South Asia
,
Shinde et al 2019
An Ancient Harappan Genome Lacks Ancestry from Steppe Pastoralists or Iranian Farmers
https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(19)30967-5