I was speaking with Dr. Lalchand about a number of things, from Anant Ambaniโs wildlife project to the recent caste discourse on Brown Pundits. Both, strangely enough, converge around the theme of scrutiny; of who gets to build, who gets to critique, and who sets the rules of engagement.
Letโs start with Vantara. Anant Ambaniโs wildlife refuge is coming under sustained criticism. But I ask: why shouldnโt Bharat, arguably the only major civilisation that views animals as divinely inspired, have a world-class zoo or rescue center? If done with sensitivity and vision, this could be a profound expression of Indiaโs Hindu civilisational ethos.
Vantara houses over 200 elephants, 50 bears, 160 tigers, 200 lions, 250 leopards, and 900 crocodiles; albeit imported from across the world into the baking flatlands beside an oil refinery. The scale is staggering. Yes, there are questions: about captive animal welfare, about the case of Pratima the elephant, about transparency. But we should also be able to think of Indian megafauna conservation at global scale especially in a nation where sacred animals are part of dharmic memory.
America had its Gilded Age. The robber barons left behind libraries, parks, and museums. Canโt India do the same? Or do we reflexively dismiss anything built by wealth as vanity? Can there not be a deeper Dharma behind patronage?
And that brings me yet again to caste, controversy, and the structure of Brown Pundits.
I am expected to be visibly offended by casteist discourses. But hereโs the thing: I donโt respond to every provocation. Nor should I be expected to. Brown Pundits isnโt a nanny state. Itโs a space where people, regardless of ideology, can think aloud, provoke, and disagree.
Caste is not just a Hindu problem. It affects nearly 2 billion people across the Indian Subcontinent. I was explaining to Dr. Lalchand that even in Pakistan, caste persists: a โDhobiโ Muslim is still a washerman by caste practice, and slurs are caste-coded. In practice, caste shapes the lowest rungs; Christian sanitation workers overlapping with dark-skinned street sweepers, the invisible classes. To not interrogate this is to betray our intellectual mandate.
Brown Pundits has always been a broad church. Yes, I have Founder-admin privileges; but so do others. Yes, I write more but everyone has the pulpit. Iโve granted Author access to virtually the entire known Commentariat, and even delegated moderation powers. I act more like a constitutional monarch than a despot in order to keep us as wide a tent as possible.
Still, itโs true: this space once had more Pakistanis. Many left, feeling underrepresented or misrepresented. Thatโs not a victory. Itโs a loss.
When Kabir left, it was after a long and intense series of disagreements. But his departure left a gap. S Barrkum now fills part of that role; a provocateur, a challenger, a necessary dialectical partner. But to conflate silence with complicity, or moderation with approval, is to misread how this blog works.
Do I write about caste because I have a Bahaโi identity? No. I write about it because it is real, persistent, and foundational. To me, caste is not something to venerate or vilify. It is something to understand. It shapes lived realities; from education to politics to social acceptance (Quota Frustations etc).
Modernity, too, is up for critique. As pointed out, upper-caste Hindus remain hyper-attuned to educational pedigree. There is an innate understanding on who is digestible, and who isnโt. Muslims, for many, remain an โindigestibleโ minority not because of religion, but because they havenโt fully bought into the project of modernity. And perhaps that isnโt a failing. Perhaps modernity itself must be re-evaluated?
So letโs not weaponise my religious identity. Letโs instead ask: why have Pakistanis left the blog? Why is caste still taboo in many quarters? Why do we flinch at discomfort, but not at inequality?
Thanks for acknowledging that this site has a right-wing Indian bias (what I call “soft Hindutva”). That’s pretty much all that I’ve been arguing for months. People feel free to generalize about Pakistan and Islam without actually knowing very much about either topic. But when the focus is turned on them (either by me or now by sbarrkum), the response is something else.
It’s perfectly fine for people to have biases. To be clear, I am commenting much less on this forum not because I can’t deal with people disagreeing with me but because I don’t appreciate the belligerent and bullying tone of some commenters. If people were able to express themselves without so much belligerence, this space would be much nicer for all concerned.
Also, while people want to highlight things that are happening in KPK (which again they know very little about), there is radio silence on the unhappiness in Ladakh. It’s much easier to throw dirt at the “enemy” country rather than reflect on your own country’s failings.
As for me, I’m still minimizing my interactions here. I’ll only comment if something particularly egregious is said about Pakistan.
I have no issues if people want to talk about KPK. My point is only that it is much much easier to criticize your “enemy” country than introspect about your own country’s failures. Why is Sonam Wangchuck in jail in Jodhpur under your National Security Act? All that the people of Ladakh want is statehood in the Indian Union (which your PM promised them).
I’m the only Pakistani here. I have no intention of exposing my country’s vulnerabilities to an audience that is by and large extremely hostile to the very idea of Pakistan.
Also, I make a point of reading “The Wire” and “Scroll” regularly. I don’t spout uninformed views on India. I doubt the commentariat here are regular readers of DAWN.
Last time I mentioned it you ran away with your fingers in your ears screaming ‘lalalala’. When Pakistan bombs Pakistan, it didn’t happen. Meanwhile lets talk about Ladakh, I get all my news from the super unbiased neutral Wire and Scroll.
Also, I challenge you (which you will ignore, but anyway) to find a single actual instance where either Modi or anyone in govt with the power to do so has promised statehood to Ladakh (pop smaller than say a small town like Purnia in Bihar).
What is under discussion is the implementation of the 6th schedule for tribal lands for which talks were ongoing and there was an attempt to force the govt hand with a hunger strike which devolved into violence. No one has any real clarity on the issue and none of us are experts on the topic. Feel free to contribute meaningfully about it.
Also the DAWN is very heavy on the Pak propaganda. They don’t exist in some saintly vacuum like you imply.
I’m not interested in starting a fight with you. You are free to opine on anything you like. Excuse me if I decline to discuss the Pakistani Army’s security operations in KPK with you.
I’m left wing.”The Wire” and “Scroll” are left-wing sites. You don’t expect me to read right-wing news do you? That would be dumb.
I was listening to a podcast on “The Print” (surely not a left-wing site). The discussion mentioned that the BJP had promised statehood to Ladakh. I’m happy to be corrected if that’s not the case.
“DAWN” is the newspaper of record in Pakistan. It’s our version of the New York Times. Of course, being a relatively centrist Pakistani newspaper, you will argue it’s propaganda. By that token, the “Times of India” (say) is Indian propaganda.
Naturally you cannot discuss KPK because it means admitting that you are fine with Pakistan bombing the families of terrorists but spent months incessantly complaining about India doing the same.
Instead it’s always about bashing India and Israel, the twin Pakistani national press obsessions. You call yourself an intellectual all the time, but it just feels like mindless reactionism to point out every issue incessantly, regurgitating talking points.
Anyway I have no more patience for this. Pretend you’re leaving or whatever.
I “can” discuss KPK. I just choose not to get into it with you since you clearly are not arguing in good faith.
Do you really not see the difference between a military taking action in its own sovereign territory and one sovereign country attacking another? India should understand that any action on Pakistani territory–even if in their own minds it is an attack on “terrorist camps” or whatever– will be treated as an attack on the Pakistani state. No sovereign country allows itself to be attacked by another.
I actually am a published scholar. Google is your friend.
As I keep saying, I am not interested in fighting with you. You’re free to believe whatever you please.
As for Israel: It is currently conducting a genocide in Gaza. I didn’t bring the topic up. I was participating in a discussion with brown and sbarrkum. You’re not interested so don’t participate.
yes the genocide in Gaza is pretty uncontestable.
Can you not remember your entire argument at the time was that women and children are not terrorists and therefore terrorist camps should not be bombed.
The sovereignty etc is a political argument.
This is a dispute over the morality of the action. Naturally when your beloved army does it you won’t bat an eyelid/turn a blind eye.
Most people would consider an army arial bombing of its own populace a far more heinous crime as they have less indiscriminate options.
I’m familiar with your argument pattern, don’t want to tread worn ground.
I don’t think Kabir is actually pro-Pakistan army. He’s only going to defend it when he feels it’s a hostile space (enemy of an enemy).
This space is what you make it to be, far more anti-hindu views espoused here than vice versa.
Besides, I don’t think you’re accurate. When it comes to Imran Khan (the overwhelming peoples choice) he heavily supports the army.
Imran Khan is a convicted criminal. Also, please don’t forget he was brought to power by the same army that he later turned against.
You have very little understanding of Pakistan’s internal political dynamics so one doesn’t need to take your views on that seriously.
Just as a thought experiment: Imagine an Indian politician who tried to incite people to attack the country’s military installations. What would be the fate of such a person?
he is the Trump of Pakistan?
He is a right-wing populist. In that sense, he can be compared to Trump.
IK was brought to power by Pak Army at a time when Pak Army was against the Sharifs and the Bhuttos. Recall that this was right after Mian Sahab (Nawaz Sharif) was in jail. IK and the military were on the “same page” for years and all was well. When he decided he was above the Army, he was swiftly shown his place.
The thing that is unforgivable about PTI is that they attacked the country’s military installations. That is a red line in Pakistan. They will not be returning to power anytime soon.
it’s difficult to keep track
The whole point is that a national military has the right to undertake security operations on its own soil. I’m not particularly interested in the details. Pak Army is battling TTP in KPK.
A sovereign nation being attacked by another is a whole different thing. India can justify that it is only attacking “terrorist camps” but Pakistan will (rightfully) consider any attack on our territory an attack on the Pakistani state and react appropriately.
India is not Israel. Israel can “mow the lawn” in Gaza because Gaza is not a sovereign state and has no functioning military. Pakistan is a nuclear power with an extremely strong military. The risks are entirely different.
This is not a particularly complicated point to understand.
yes but Pakistan isn’t in the best “halat”
Pakistan may not be in the best “halat”. It remains a nuclear power with an extremely strong army. We are more than capable of resisting attacks upon us by external enemies.
Morality, Kabir, m-o-r-a-l-i-t-y , your army is amoral for bombing its citizens.
India would happily send in troops to combat the militants in Bhawalpur and avoid killing those women and children but it cannot.
The Pakistani army can, in KPK, but doesn’t, because it values its soldiers over its people.
The last time India bombed it’s own territory was in 1966 (Aizwal) under Indira Gandhi, a consistently amoral politician.
Meanwhile, just this year…
22 September 2025 โ Tirah, Khyber Pakhtunkhwa
Pakistani jets dropped bombs (LS-6 bombs) targeting Pakistani Taliban, but the strike hit villages. At least 30 civilians were killed, including women and children. The provincial government condemned the strike and offered compensation to victims.
29 March 2025 โ Katlang Tehsil, Mardan District, Khyber Pakhtunkhwa
Drone or aerial strike by Pakistani security forces targeting suspected militants. Civilian casualties were reported, with 9 civilians killed along with militants. The incident led to protests.
19 May 2025 โ Hurmuz village, Mir Ali, North Waziristan
Drone strike in a civilian area. Local reports claimed 4 children from one family were killed, along with several others injured. The Pakistani military denied involvement, but the strike was widely seen as part of ongoing counterinsurgency operations.
Of course, you will want to talk about Ladakh and Sindhoor and your wonderful nuclear bombs and Gaza, all sorts of distractions, but I’m an old hand with your diversions.
Are you playing dumb or does this really go over your head?
What a country does on its own territory is not the same as one sovereign nation attacking another. I’m not interested in discussing Pakistan’s internal affairs with you. Nor are they really any of your business.
The bottom line is India has NO business attacking Pakistan ever. Of course you can do it if you like but accept the risk that you are dealing with a nuclear armed country (and a major ally of China)
If you really want to discuss what armies do on their own territory, then fine. Let’s discuss what India’s Army of Occupation has done to Kashmiri Muslims. How many men have been disappeared or “encountered”? How many women have been raped? And Occupied Kashmir is not even India proper. It is a DISPUTED TERRITORY.
Watch your tone with me. I will not tolerate rudeness.
M-o-r-a-l-i-t-y , morality, your army is amorally bombing their populace. And you refuse to acknowledge it because it is a Muslim army doing the killing. This is why you are not a left wing centrist but an Islamist. You use left wing and ‘intellectual’ identification as cover to highlight violence on Muslims, but ONLY if is is not perpetrated by Pakistan, or China. 12 people dead in PoK this week, due to police firing, no. of mentions from Kabir = 0. Deflections from the topic = 6 & steadily rising, I’m ignoring counting the self victim claims and warnings towards me, thats sort of assumed nowadays.
OK, at this point I have to assume you are actually really dumb. What happens inside a country domestically is a completely different thing than one sovereign country attacking another.
I’m done here.
+7 & You’re ‘dumb here’. Not ‘done here’.
Sweetie, I am far far more intellectually capable than you. You can’t even understand the difference between one sovereign country attacking another and domestic actions within a country’s territory. This is a trivial difference that even a child can understand.
Do let me know when you are a published scholar. Otherwise, you’re just a right-wing Indian fool.
One word for you regarding your own “Bharat Mata”: AFSPA
+10?
Also you keep putting “intellectual” in quotes which is absurd.
I am actually a published scholar. There is no evidence that we can say the same about you.
I am a Pakistani nationalist NOT an “Islamist”, I refuse to get drawn into discussing Pakistan’s internal affairs with someone who is clearly hostile to the country.
+8
Get a life.
I actually don’t know what’s happening in KPK
https://www.brownpundits.com/2025/10/02/vantara-caste-and-the-fragile-commons/#comment-119319
u guys don’t have to necessarily “fight.”
I have no intention of starting a fight.
I have repeatedly pointed out that Indosaurus uses a particularly belligerent tone with me. It’s not appreciated.
nor should u
Trust me, I’m trying very very hard to stay polite.
But I do not appreciate belligerence.
Ladakh statehood seems a stretch for what it’s worth
But I do think states in India should be reorganised. Bhojpur is a natural state
Ladakh statehood seems a stretch for what itโs worth
Ladakh should be incorporated into Tibet based on genetics.
Too bad the Chinese dont interfere in neighbors politics and regime change. Quite different from India that pokes its nose in all its neighbors
Tibet is occupied by China?
Tibetans invited China to get rid of a nasty Feudal tyrant masquerading as Buddhist Monk.
Lamas were treating the peasants worse than slaves.
Feudalism in TibetThe kingdom of Tibet was closed to the outside world during most of its existence.
Until the 20th century, it was essentially a theocratic state and feudal caste society ruled by a few rich aristocratic families, and lamas, many under umbrella of the Dalai Lama. The backbone of the system was the willingness of ordinary people to support monks, monasteries and the religious elite. Contributing sons to monasteries was seen as a way to earn religious merit.
Land was owned by the state, which was under the control of the Dalai Lama and other powerful lamas. Many peasant farmers were organized into estates under the control of monasteries, incarnate lamas and aristocratic forts. The large monasteries looked like fortresses and had their own armies of fighting monks. It was not uncommon for monasteries to battle one another over territorial claims and religious disputes.
Feudal Tibet was a land of shackled slaves, the thumbscrews and the scorpion pits that awaited serfs who defied their masters as much as it was one of Shangi-La beauty and Buddhist calm. Criminals had their hands and arms lopped off and were blinded as punishments. Some had their eyes gouged out while a bread-size stone was placed on their head. Others had yak knucklebones pressed on both temples until their eyeballs popped out. Such punishments were outlawed by the predecessor the current Dalai Lama in 1913.
https://factsanddetails.com/china/cat6/sub32/entry-4420.html
you make a good point- I was just with two Pakistani friends and they immediately started talking about the flaws of the Military.
I think people do scope out intentions.
Christianity to a lesser extent) in practice has impacted everything
There was a Big Impact in Tamil Nadu as in Tamil Sri Lanka. American Missionaries. When the American Missionaries arrived, in Ceylon he British Said only operate in Northern and Eastern Province. The built huge schools and hospitals. One in every 10miles in Jaffna proper. Thats why the SL Tamils had a huge advantage in getting Administrative and Civil Service Jobs in Ceylon and Malaysia
50% of the Civil Service Jobs in Ceylon were held by SL Tamils. They were only 12% of the population. A priviledged minority.
—————————————–
When the missionaries came to South Tamil Nadu, they concentrate more on social reforms than gospel works.They were astonished to see the social evils prevalent in South Tamil Nadu. As far as their religion was concerned, fear and superstitious beliefs characterized their life. The stratification of society along caste lines was another dominant factor and everyoneโs identity was through the solidarity of his or her caste.
This link has PDF download.
The Social Impact of the Christian Mission in Southern Part of Tamil Nadu
https://www.ijaresm.com/the-social-impact-of-the-christian-mission-in-southern-part-of-tamil-nadu
Have you read about the revulsion that was the Inquisition
Thats Portuguese Catholics.
Anyway the experience in Sri Lanka (and I think Tamil Nadus) with American Missionaries has been positive. They introduced modern education and hospitals to ALL. Plus equality and eradication of caste. Maybe Tamil Nadu has less casteism because of Christian Influence
Indian Estate Tamils (Hindus mainly), the most marginalized community are getting converted to Evangelical Christianity. Why, because they get treated with respect, hugged and kissed by all. Plus thinking of the future and getting better English education and job prospects
Personally I dont like conversion. But better Christian than remain Hindu and align with India. India is pouring money into these places, building and enlarging Hindu Temples of all things. Why not schools.and hospitals. People are not stupid, they see what is best for them and their children. .
Clear as day example is the NE, where a free run to this scum has resulted in fissures in society, and a hatred towards Hindus
Have you ever thought this might be a response to Indian Hindu Colonizers who treat the south east asian looking locals like scum.
but do they really leave Hinduism?
“No different from Indian Muslims”…clearly you have no clue of the deeply retrenched caste system within Muslims of India. The Christians in India are also no different when it comes to practicing caste.
“โ Itโs better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than open it and remove all doubtโ
I dont have a high opinion that rational thought is capable by those who believe in Gods.
Mark Twain
He was deeply critical of religious hypocrisy and the misuse of faith, and while he believed in God, he rejected the divine authority of the Bible and questioned God’s benevolence, particularly after personal tragedies. His writings reflect a blend of skepticism, anger, and a questioning of traditional religious dogma, ultimately leading some to see him as a proto-atheist, while others view him as a complex figure grappling with spiritual matters.
I think India is blessed by geography; her core is very majority-mainstream dominant.
Making it personal though the name I post under is a pseudonym.
I hope you recall I remembered the name. Sister Nivedita born Margaret Elizabeth Noble an Irish teacher, author, social activist, school founder and disciple of Swami Vivekananda
Vivekananda was a major figure in the introduction of Vedanta and Yoga to the Western world. Vivekananda was he chief disciple of the Indian mystic Ramakrishna.
Ramakrishna He was a devotee of the goddess Kali (very very Impressive, Kali)
So Vivekananda a Hindu Missionary and a disciple of the Goddess Kali (thru his Guru)
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Touched a raw nerve there I see. If you canโt stomach insults, think before you dole them out yourself
What Raw Nerve I am an Atheist and dont approve any theistic belief.
On the contrary I seem to have touched your (Nivedita) raw nerve, No insults yet, just academic comparison. No skin in this game either, i.e. sedition
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramakrishna
Delusional to the core I see
Are you referring to Ramakishna being a devotee of Goddess Kali
Incidentally there is a well known Kali Temple (Munneswaram, Chilaw) about 100km from where I live. I have gone to it a couple of times with a partner because she believed.
..
——-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali
You are just old age talking….But for your partner who believes, I would recommend the book on Ramakrishna by Christopher Isherwood..Instead of Wikipidia
I would recommend the book on Ramakrishna
Why a Book, I have gone to Goddess Kali Temples quite often
is caste no longer operative in SL in any context?
is caste no longer operative in SL in any context?
Absolutely not. Not among the Buddhists for Sure.
Maybe some left among Tamils, but the LTTE did a decent job of eradicating.
Never had a caste Census even during British Times
I had initially titled my latest post; Mission of the Missionaries.
I do think it is good to have free marketplaces, but they do get abused.
Check your stats and bias
day living in what is unarguably a culturally Hindu state
Buddhism is the predominant religion, making up approximately 77.3% of the population, followed by Islam with around 13.8% and Hinduism at about 8.2%. This religious makeup varies geographically, with Central and Eastern Ladakh being predominantly Buddhist and Western Ladakh being primarily Shia Muslim
The languages, religions, dance, music, architecture, food, and customs of the Ladakh region are similar to Tibet.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladakhis
I think Nivedita was referring to India as a whole when she wrote “culturally Hindu state”.
Ladakh is obviously not Hindu. Kargil district is Muslim majority while Leh is Buddhist majority.
Ladakh is also part of the Disputed Territory that is the entire former princely state of Jammu and Kashmir.
what are Leh-Kargil relations like. Kargil probably more like Baltistan?
will they join their Tibetan brethren?
yes but also there is little need to be abrasive?
Why single out Kabir, when a few others equally and more abrasive, including myself
Anti Islamic/Pakistani is how I see it
You and I are public enemies on this blog. Because we refuse to accept India’s hegemony in South Asia and because we don’t pander to the Indian right-wing consensus.
Kabir,
I think many of the commenters here should take many chill pills.
What we discuss is not going to change world. Just hopefully get educated in different perspectives, different details of history and sociology.
Many times standup comedy gets it right.
One such, not politically correct.
https://web.facebook.com/reel/696636232741380
KPK is a lot “closer” in the Pakistani imagination then Ladakh.
There are 40mm Pathans in Pakistan and they are over-represented in Islamabad and Karachi (I don’t know about Lahore).
But Pathans are VERY prominent in the Pakistani psyche
well yes but Caste is probably linked to Brahmanism and Hinduism.
this is not a pejorative btw but something to explain
Definitely should be understood and attempts have been made but its very challenging. One cannot understate the complicated nature of the issue. The word caste was originally used to explain the race based hierarchy within Spanish societies, which has nothing to do with anything that’s practiced in India. In India, it is Jaati (rapidly disintegrating and disappearing now) and Varna ( totally misunderstood, abused but also constantly challenged by Hindus themselves who continue to attempt reform and are succeeding). These systems have nothing to do with the connotations associated with the word “caste”
Brahmanism and Brahminism (the culture of modern Brahmins) are completely different things. Brahmanism was the most influential philosophy during the middle Vedic period. The word literally means non-dualism/pantheism and its founder, a man called Yajnavalkya, was a beef eating egalitarian non-dualist.