These excellent tweets exhibit a painful pattern that many of us see but few want to name.
Pakistanis, particularly its establishment and elite classes, exhibit a deep inferiority complex towards white (light) Muslims; Arabs, Turks, Persians, and Afghans. These groups are valorized, romanticized, and used as benchmarks for identity and belonging. Meanwhile, other Asian groups, especially within South Asia and Southeast Asia, are seen as lesser. This manifests not only in foreign policy but in pop culture, education, and internalized social hierarchies.
This is why, even if Partition had to happen (and it was undeniably disastrous), Pakistan still could have been something else. It could’ve been a GCC meets Pahlavi Iran construct—a sleek, semi-modernist, high-income Asian Muslim republic with cultural gravitas and economic depth.
Instead, as others have rightly pointed out, Pakistan today has one of the lowest HDIs in its region. Karachi didn’t become Dubai. Lahore didn’t become Paris. Islamabad remains a ghost town of beautiful boulevards and hollow institutions. The promise wasn’t just broken; it was never even understood.
In some ways, Pakistan inherited the worst of both its imagined lineages: neither the intellectual cosmopolitanism of Persianate high culture, nor the industrious civic ambition of Indian civilizational continuity.
This is why tweets like those from @MrFreeFighter land so hard. They expose the psychic dissonance at the heart of the Pakistani state’s anxieties; its hatred of Pashtuns, its paranoia about “Afghanism,” and its inability to deal with its own peripheral ethnic groups as anything but threats.
Meanwhile, Indian Muslims like bombaybadshah, though deeply patriotic to India, often voice critiques of Pakistan with a clarity born of disappointment. They represent what Pakistan could have cultivated: a civic Islam, grounded in identity but untethered to ethnic obsession.
The final irony? South East Asia, Thailand, Cambodia, even Bali, retains more civilizational Dharma than most of Pakistan. Religion is irrespective of that elusive civilisational quality of Dharma, thus the true borders of Bharat lie eastward, not northwest.
Pakistan is not the enemy of India. It is the shattered mirror. And what it reflects, feudalism, insecurity, bigotry, and colonial hangover, is what the entire subcontinent must transcend. Again anyone who reads this can see I’m not saying this from a place of hate but love.
Meanwhile, Indian Muslims like bombaybadshah, though deeply patriotic to India, often voice critiques of Pakistan with a clarity born of disappointment.Not a good look XTM. Asking BB origin and then speaking for him in your article, he is clearly self identifying as an atheist, one must respect that.
If you’ve got his explicit permission for it, I completely take it back and tender my own apologies. (Also I realize the irony, in that I too am speaking on his behalf)
Yes I apologise but I was interested – I did feel though it was salient ..
I am happy to amend if Bombay badshah is upset but I do think people can be more “upfront” about their identities.
For a long time I thought Bombay badshah was Honey Singh. But it explains his technical animus against Pakistan; it’s more Congress than Hindutva
Also whatever one might say about Kabir; he is a public figure, so he pushes the boundary but he is a known figure. There is more honesty when people are transparent about their own priors, which impact us all
also religion and belief are very different; atheism is a bit irrelevant to one’s core identity, which is super-salient in the Old World
Finally we are extremely commentariat driven; I don’t check readership stats, I check volume, quality and flow of comments as a “measure.”
But yes I am happy to delete / withdraw / amend if BB not happy after all his agency must be respected
Identity is what you make of it. Some people might not want to identify with their culture of origin anymore? What happens when people convert?
It is rare I’ll admit and drop the matter to let BB speak for himself.
🙂 as a firm proponent of the anonymous online identify I think people should just debate the words and logic of an argument, else it gets bogged down with ad hominem nuisances.
I am very happy to admit when I am wrong and drop it but in the pursuit of intellectual honesty; this is important.
yes a lot of Indian Subcontinental Muslims would NOT want their offspring to be like Bombay_badshah; hence Partition is very very successful if it avoids that outcome?
I wish bombay_badshah the best and celebrate his patriotism, but then quoting statistics about where India trumps Pakistan (no pun intended) is part of the picture. Brown Pundits is not Twitter; it is excavating the deepest depths.
hence why I am making this stand, not out of ego or breaking confidences, but rather for intellectual honesty. if the commentariat want to learn from each other; it is important to *get* Kabir, otherwise this is an echo chamber
Let’s be honest, there is no *getting* Kabir.
Not even bothering with the Indo-Pak fracture, even after he is shown to be wrong he will continue to quote the same articles saying Charlie Kirk is a homophobe and the RSS wants a monarchy in Nepal (the one that keeps insultingly calling Yogi Adityanath – Bisht).
He wantonly mocks the Ramayan to try to aggravate people.
Tbh I don’t know many Pakistanis, but the rare occasions I did chat with them, they all seemed extremely pleasant people, I would hate to displace my opinion of the Pakistani populace with a Kabir or Qureshi.
Kabir is actually liberal than even most *elite* Pakistanis.
Liberalism is overrated. Elitism doubly so.
perhaps but my point is Kabir is the softer edge of Pakistan
There will be a common meeting ground when India treats Pakistan with the respect due to a sovereign nation state. Relations between nation states are built on respect for sovereignty and territorial integrity.
We have had many “composite dialogue” processes in the past. We even have a possible solution to the Kashmir dispute (the Musharraf-Manmohan Plan). But if you refuse to talk to us about Kashmir and periodically bomb us then of course there will not be a “common meeting ground”. Pakistan is a nuclear power and we will never ever accept Indian hegemony.
Pakistan should also respect India’s territorial integrity and not use terrorism as a means of proxy war. However, we should never give up on diplomatic support to our Kashmiri Muslim brothers and sisters.
Personally, i have many Indian friends from when I lived abroad. However, none of them are Hindutvadis. And they know not to press me on sensitive topics such as Kashmir.
Kabir you speak grandilolquently but while you are somewhat insulated from this by your elite status; it is not fun being a Pakistani of a lower Socio economic rung.
You do realise the manifest hypocrisy in your position surely.
Maybe Pakistan can beg the US-China to fund it somehow but even beyond material prosperity; Pakistan has very low HDI indices.
India has rapidly pulled apart
Pakistan is never going to compromise on our national security. Accepting Indian hegemony is a non-starter.
I’m a national security hawk and I will not apologize for it.
Is it fun being an Indian of a lower socio economic rung?
More fun than a corresponding Pakistani at the same percentile.
You don’t see the kinds of slums that you see in India in Pakistan.
I don’t give a damn about fast bowlers. It’s a stupid sport and is neither here nor there.
Sorry, the levels of poverty in your country are pathetic. Go build some toilets for your people.
XTM: Is this kind of anti Pakistan trolling acceptable?
Making fun of flood victims is not on.
XTM: He is the one who started it.
Cries wolf a lot.
“He started it”– Are we in kindergarten?
Your anti Pakistan trolling is completely unacceptable. Especially at a time of devastating floods.
the backstroke comment was in poor form; it’s not funny
Cry me a river. He isn’t trolling flood victims, just you.
(You don’t get to make fun of poverty and then use their misery as an ideological shield)
No surprise you have a bias. You’re not a neutral party.
“Golden shower” comments are crass and unacceptable,
I feel bad for bombay-badshah: My brother in Islam, I understand as a member of a beleaguered minority, you feel the need to be more loyal than the king. Maybe if you’re not Indian nationalist enough, someone will lynch you.
I’m a pork-eating beef-eating atheist, “brother”.
As if Hindutvadis will ask you all that before they decide to lynch you.
It’s fine. I understand your need to prove your Indian nationalist credentials.
Give me a break.
Atheists actually get lynched in Pakistan. There is even a state sanctioned death penalty for Blasphemy.
Pakistan is an “Islamic Republic”. India is a secular state. It’s really not that controversial for countries to be judged on the basis of what is written in their constitutions.
I’m not going to defend the Blasphemy law. Are you going to deny that Muslims in Bharat Mata are lynched for not saying “Jai Shree Ram” or on suspicion of transporting beef?
I am on record as having written about Pakistan’s blasphemy law. Don’t play this game with me.
https://thehumanist.com/news/hnn/the-assassination-of-salman-taseer-and-the-pakistani-blasphemy-law-debate/
I’ve repeatedly seen you holding India and Pakistan to very different standards — scolding India for religious majoritarianism while expressing a kind of “oh well, that’s the whole point of it” kind of sentiment for Pakistani religious majoritarianism.
But I think, instead of having this double standard of either tolerating or even encouraging religious majoritarianism in Pakistam (on account of it being an Islamic republic) and criticizing it in the Indian context (on account of it being a secular republic), a better approach would be to judge the peoples of India and Pakistan.
When you look at it that way, the peoples of India constituted for themselves a secular republic despite being overwhelmingly comprised of one religion. They have aspired to a secular ideal but have had many serious shortcomings, from dozens of major communal riots to hate speech and interpersonal discrimination.
Conversely, the peoples of Pakistan constituted for themselves an Islamic republic. Their very ideal is one that privileges in a fundamental way the religious majority community. The very aspiration is one of religious majoritarianism and exclusion. And in that objective of Islamic supremacism, there is no doubt that Pakistan has had far fewer shortcomings. Indeed, it is chalk full of achievements, with the crowning achievement of course being the Bengali genocide.
So yes, when you judge the republics on how much they have lived up to their ideals, Pakistan wins. But when you judge the peoples of India and Pakistan, you may come to a different conclusion.
It’s like comparing the US to apartheid South Africa and condoning or being relatively muted about every instance of racism in the latter while getting up in arms for every instance of the same in the former. OK, sure. But what does it say of the peoples who made those republics and perpetuate them?
Considering I am Shia (by birth, at least) there is a greater chance of me being lynched or be bombed while praying in Pakistan.
Not to mention Ahmadi atrocities ofc.
I’m Shia too (technically). What’s your point?
I’m not going to defend the treatment of Ahmadis.
Look, it’s OK. At first I thought you were Honey Singh but the fact that you’re of a Muslim background makes sense. Some Indian Muslims make a habit of being extremely anti-Pakistan in public (Javed Akhtar is an example). You do whatever you need to survive in a country where Muslims are increasingly treated as a fifth column.
Thank Allah my grandparents chose Pakistan. At least we are free to live our lives in a Muslim majority country.
I do have relatives living in Agra (on my daadi’s side). They are doing fine though they send their daughters to Pakistan to be married. Obviously, we don’t really discuss politics with them.
Look, it’s OK. Some Pakistani Muslims make a habit of being extremely anti-Indian Muslim and exaggerate their issues to feel good about themselves.
Because if Indian Muslims are thriving and have a better life in India vis a vis Pakistan, then the entire existence of Pakistan would feel like a sham wouldn’t it?
Considering the economic divergence, it has already happened and going to diverge further.
The South Asian Muslim billionaires are Indian, not Pakistani. Same with the biggest Muslim movie stars, sportsmen etc.
Thank Allah my grandparents chose India.
I grew up in Bandra where you have people of all three religions in great numbers and we all celebrated each other’s festivals etc. Bandra might not represent the majority of India but such places don’t even exist in Pakistan.
And for that reason alone India will always be better.
There is a reason people like Qurrutulain Hyder came back.
I’m not at all anti Indian Muslim. I consider Indian Muslims my brothers and sisters–as do many Pakistanis.
I would love if not even one Indian Muslim is lynched or threatened. Believe me their ill treatment doesn’t make me happy.
But I will point you to the Sachar Committee Report. The condition of Indian Muslims was categorized as worse than Dalits. A few Bollywood Khans don’t change this.
I would much rather be a majority in a 97% percent Muslim country than a 15% minority in a majority Hindu country. Your mileage may differ. Generally speaking, South Asian minorities are not having a particularly good time. You’re from Bandra. If you were from Daryaganj in Old Delhi you might think differently.
I have immense respect for Qurratulain Hyder and have written about her work in detail:
https://kabiraltaf.substack.com/p/lucknows-composite-culture-and-its
But let’s be real. She moved back to India because of the criticism that Aag Ka Dariya received in Pakistan. It’s that simple.
Kabir if your tone, especially to me and other Admins (Indosaurus & Nivedita), continue. I will blanket ban all your comments for a month..
please don’t test or tax me on this.
u r welcome to correct BB, but calmness is not an option
admin note: I deleted the entire exchange as it is very low-signal.. BB-Kabir calm please otherwise I’ll just remove all ur comments arbitrarily
that is not true BB- it is an offensive trope to claim that Muslims in India have it better than Pakistan.
It is like saying Jews in Iran have it better than Jews in Israel
you cannot thank Alláh, who you do not believe in.
also BB – also be calm, don’t be name-calling Pakistan unnecessarily. a country you have not visited or frankly are familiar with
I don’t understand why it is an offensive trope to say that Muslims in India have it better than Muslims in Pakistan.
Comparing Jews in Iran to Muslims in India makes no sense. Nor does comparing Muslims in Pakistan to Jews in Israel.
It is true that many Muslims in India face discrimination, but it is still possible for a minority that faces discrimination to have it better in some circumstances than some of their counterparts in some countries where they would be in the majority. There are obvious examples of this across the world.
Moreover, the Muslim experience in India is not a monolith. For example, a Muslim in a city like Kozhikode, Kerala, a city of more than 2 million people on the Arabian Sea coast with about 40% of the population being Muslim, in a state where the literacy rate is above 95%, where the HDI is on par with the lower end of developed countries, where there is relatively less historic communal tension, where Hindu nationalist parties stand no chance, where beef consumption is commonplace (even among a notable portion of Hindus), and where the GDP per capita is double that of Pakistan… may very well be leading a life that they would not be dreaming of swapping with their counterpart in Rawalpindi.
There is an unfortunate tendency flatten the diversity of the Indian Muslim community.
I will write on it – but it is wrong.
Completely agree.
The best Muslim lived experience in the Indian subcontinent are by Kerala Muslims.
Even their culture is very much part of the pop culture and they have loads of celebrities – Faahadh, Dulquer, Mamooty etc.
But supposedly it is wrong to say that a Malayali Muslim in Kozhikode and Kannur and Malappuram would not want to swap their existence (putting aside for the hypothetical family and friendship ties) for that of one in Multan or Bahawalpur or Quetta.
Despite the presence of an enormous, near plurality Muslim community; a high literacy rate and therefore a high level of access to education; a high life expectancy; much better Healthcare; higher incomes, on average; much better access to clean drinking water; near universal access to sanitation; near universal access to banking services; better access to larger, sturdier-built housing; extensive representation in Malayalam media; and relatively less historic communal tension given that Islam came to Kerala through trade rather than conquest.
Kerala is not emblematic of the Indian Muslim experience..
Yes, but we should not flatten the diversity of the Indian Muslim experience, either. About 25% of a state of 33 million (as of 2011) being Muslim is not small potatoes. The Indian Muslim experience cannot be limited to just the experiences of Urdu-speaking Sunni Muslims of Uttar Pradesh and Bihar.
Malayali Muslims and Indian Bengali Muslims and Assamese Muslims etc are all just as Indian and just as Muslim. And these are all rather substantial communities. The story of Islam in India is just as diverse as India itself.
as a side note – all of your posts are going to spam . I dont know why
ur email is fake btw please email bp19 email
It literally isn’t?
Sent an email to brownpundits19@gmail.com
I emailed ur email; it bounced back. I have the screenshot..
also u claim to have a Shi’ite father but there is no way your “surname” is Shi’ite..
I’m not getting into a debate about how “Shi’ite” my surname is lol.
it is – to verify your identity.
you are lying about who you are
I am not.
And anyways, I have not even said who I am. I am not even here under my real name.
I wrote a whole post about ur Muslim identity, which is now fake.
if you provoke or engage Kabir; I will delete all your comments immediately. do not address or engage Kabir
Bounce back must be something with your servers. I emailed you literally.
because u created the email afterward..
I will allow you on this blog since you *claim* not to be HS..
but ur entire backstory is fake. u r not half Shi’ite Bandra
even I though BB was HS initially
calm
XTM: wasn’t this troll banned?
Homophobia is utterly and completely unacceptable. This is not on.
even if Kabir “starts” it, you don’t have to “continue it.”
same goes for Kabir
Relations and respect is also due to relative power.
In the late 90s-early 2000s there was still some parity.
India has diverged a lot now and is diverging further.
Equality is between equals.
Pakistan cannot expect 90s-2000s behavior when their own economy is smaller than many Indian states (just like India cannot expect equality with say the United States).
One has to recognize where one is coming from.
Being treated as a sovereign nation state has nothing to do with economics.
Look, it’s fine. You don’t want to talk to Pakistan don’t. You want to periodically bomb Pakistan, OK. But any military action India takes will be responded to by military action of greater strength from Pakistan. There is no compromising on that. As the weaker country, we need to establish deterrence. We will never accept Indian hegemony.
It would be better for both countries to return to some kind of a dialogue process. India wants to discuss “terrorism”, let’s discuss it– but that includes the terrorism that India supports in Balochistan. Pakistan will insist on discussing Occupied Kashmir.
It’s your choice. You want dialogue. We’re ready for dialogue. You want military action, we will give better than we get.
You all cannot threaten the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.
Except for the fact that Pakistan simply does not have the ability to respond with “greater strength”.
Pakistan’s terrorist hideouts and PAF bases were hit, some in broad daylight.
Pakistan couldn’t even penetrate the Indian Air Defense.
Don’t threaten a nuclear power. We are a peace loving country but don’t mistake that for weakness.
You all murdered Pakistani children and women. And then Donald Trump forced your Hindu Hriday Samrat into a ceasefire.
You want to bomb Pakistan? Be prepared for what we dish out to you next time.
I am sure that Squadron Leader Usman and the various PAF personnel killed were not “women and children”.
It was you who went begging to Trump for a ceasefire.
Why would India go for a ceasefire when Pakistan couldn’t even penetrate Indian AD.
You can’t dish out “Anything”.
you are the North Korea of the Indian subcontinent – nuclear powered basketcase
Pakistan didn’t beg for a ceasefire. Stop swallowing Indian propaganda.
They did. They did.
Hahahaha
Lol cause the objectives were achieved.
Btw, EU has no plans on doing so and is talking FTA with India.
I don’t think Pakistan qualifies as a basket case. You too should be calm in your response
I’m sorry, I think referring to Kabir as ‘liberal’ is simply inaccurate.
Luckily, you are not in charge of giving out certificates of liberalism.
I’m a bog standard Democrat. I’ve voted Democrat in every election since the age of 18.
Of course, I’m a patriotic Pakistani.
Asides from my views on Pakistan (where I am obviously a Pakistani patriot), I have extremely generic center-left views. My politics is really no different from that of the typical Democrat.
I have a right to quote whatever articles I please. I’m really sorry the center-left perspective bothers you so much.
Let me know when you have an original thought of your own. Till then keep posting away all that PhD rent seeking drivel.
What precisely is your problem? I get it you don’t like my political views but that doesn’t explain the extremely personal animus you have against me. Especially for someone who says we should debate the ideas and not the personalities.
I voided part of your comment..
but remember Kabir you have rubbed many people on this site the wrong way..
So? They’ve also rubbed me the wrong way. I’ve been called an “Islamist” and worse.
Mutual respect goes both ways.
well you should reflect maybe on why you were called an Islamist; threatening Bharat was a low blow.
when I have voided a part of your comment, there is no point in repeating it again.
and as anyone can see from my latest post, I am committed to intellectual transparency (where possible).
Calling me an “Islamist” is absolutely and utterly unacceptable. I will never stand for that kind of behavior.
X.T.M: You keep voiding the line where I responded to “let me know when you have an original thought of your own”. This is not fair.
I am a published scholar. That criticism was snarky and inaccurate.
We’ve already had this silly personal animosity argument, so I won’t get into that.
Let me explain my snarkiness a little.
Kabir – you know nothing about Charlie Kirk (I don’t really either), yet you called him a homophobe based on what someone else said in an article. That particular instance he was clearly not being homophobic and it was taken out of context.
After this is pointed out, you repeat the assertion.
you quoted an article saying that the RSS wants Monarchy in Nepal. After it was pointed out that that article shows pretty vile anti hindu bias, you pointed to a picture in it again where the nepalese (not the RSS) are holding up Gyanendra and Yogi’s poster.
So there is no learning here. Even after it is very clearly pointed out that those articles are biased and out of context you repeatedly use them to push a viewpoint.
It is as if you shut out any contrary information and keep repeating the same tracks like an automaton.
If I point out the moral inconsistency as hypocrisy, you take it as bullying and personal animosity and what not.
So yes, there is no original thought here, just rinse and repeat.
Repeatedly calling someone a hypocrite is a personal attack as well as bullying.
We obviously differ on our definitions of homophobia. Charlie Kirk’s statements are considered extremely homophobic in an American context.
You have not proven me wrong on anything. I simply disagree with your point of view and I am entitled to do so. This is the humanities not the natural sciences where there is a right answer at the back of the book.
I’m not interested in a long back and forth with you. But if you try to bully me, I reserve the right to defend myself.
Where is the bullying, I called you a hypocrite because you keep saying Pakistan is Islamic and therefore does not need to uphold ‘liberal’ values while India (& the US) is secular and therefore it must.
This is a clear double standard. It simply is, there is no bullying or personal attack here.
Argue the point Kabir, you never do, it’s all covering behind your self declared personas.
No one will ever call you hypocritical without pointing out the hypocrisy. Apply the standards you expect to others, you never do this.
Sorry but secular states must be judged on the standards of secularism. Pakistan never claimed to be secular and therefore cannot be judged on those standards. It can be judged on the basis of what is written in the Pakistani Constitution.
If India declares itself a Hindu Rashtra, I promise I will not judge it by the standards of a secular state.
I don’t like your tone. You clearly have a personal animus towards me.
You can keep repeating that you are not a bully. But you come off as one as well as someone who is self-righteous. It’s not a good look.
0 learning. Rinse. Repeat. Ad infinitum.
Moral consistency often gets confused with self-righteousness by people lacking it.
We’ll just have to agree to disagree.
I would prefer you not make personal remarks about me. Your self-appointed mission of calling out my “hypocrisy” is uncalled for. You need a new hobby.
ouch
U r centre left and far right bottled into one; ur views on India & Hindus can be frightening
I am not at all “far right”. That is a gross mischaracterization. I am a center-left Pakistani.
I am not anti Hinduism. I am anti-Hindutva.
I refuse to accept Indian hegemony in South Asia.
Nothing about me is “far right”.
India is the largest power in the Indian Subcontinent; Pakistan can join the Middle East.
that’s why I prefer the Dharmic world, where Buddhist-Hindu values anchor the region..
India is the largest country yes. But it cannot act as the regional hegemon. Not only Pakistan but even other countries like Nepal, Sri Lanka etc refuse to accept this. Nobody likes a bully.
South Asia is not equal to the “Indian Subcontinent”.
Pakistan is part of South Asia culturally and geographically. We cannot “join the Middle East” even though some Pakistanis would love to do so.
South Asia IS the INDIAN subcontinent.
India’s hegemony stems from the fact that India is 80% of “South Asia’s” economy. And considering the low growth rates of the other countries, that share will keep on increasing.
Also India is the only country which actually neighbours these various countries and have common concerns.
None of the other “South Asian” countries have a non Indian “South Asian” neighbour.
Pakistan is already considered the middle east by the IMF since it does not exhibit the high growth and dynamic economies of the rest of the subcontinent.
IMF categorizes the high growth Asian economies as “Emerging and Developing Asia”
while Pakistan is filed under “Middle East and Central Asia”.
Pakistan is culturally more Middle Eastern now anyway.
Many definitions of South Asia include Afghanistan which is not part of the “Indian Subcontinent”. Sri Lanka is not part of the “Indian subcontinent”. Sorry, but South Asia is an accepted geopolitical term whether you like it or not.
I wrote an entire essay about this:
https://kabiraltaf.substack.com/p/in-defense-of-south-asia
The IMF can categorize Pakistan however they like. They must have some criteria they are using. However, it doesn’t change the fact that we are geographically and culturally South Asian.
“Pakistan is culturally more Middle Eastern now anyway”– How would you know? Have you ever been to Pakistan?
We are a 60% Punjabi country. Punjabis are South Asian by any definition. Our national language is Urdu which is very much a South Asian language. We wear shalwar kameez. We eat South Asian food.
Non-Pakistanis don’t get to define Pakistan’s cultural identity.
To a Muslim, a lot of your views come across as very anti-Muslim.
What’s your point?
Your bigotry towards India and Hindus is as radically far right as it gets. And no amounts of pompous self-stroking on ‘humanities scholarship” can magically make that invisible.
For the love of God! I sing Hindustani classical music (including bhajans). I have lots of left wing Indian friends–including Hindus. I just got a very nice email from a (Hindu) guy in Delhi asking me to help him contact Ghulam Ali for his research.
My issue is only with the Hindu Right. Don’t misrepresent my views again.
You do a very accurate job ‘representing your views’ Kabir bhai. And not just to me.
I find it incredibly surreal how somehow you are unable to see it for yourself.
I have repeatedly made it clear that I’m anti Hindutva. I’m not anti India as a whole.
In fact, if India doesn’t bomb Pakistan, I’m happy to leave the country alone. But I’m a national security hawk and I make no bones about it.
I have many left-wing Indian friends. My parents have many left-wing Indian friends. So you are just completely wrong here.
It seems for some of you the only “good” Pakistani is one who doesn’t believe in his religion and is perfectly happy to accept Indian hegemony in South Asia. Sorry but that is an extremely limited set of people.
Yeah, don’t really appreciate being identified as Muslim cause :
1.
I am an atheist. I have a Muslim name because of my father who himself wasn’t particularly religious.
2.
I had a relatively religiously lax childhood. My mother’s East Indian Catholic and I did grow up in Bandra which does tend to skew extremely multicultural. Also Bandra being somewhat “posh” does tend to have more liberal people of all faiths.
A lot of the Muslim side of the family (as is the Catholic side) is intermarried with other religions and none are practically religious.
actually this is interesting. I am happy to remove but this is salient to the Indian – Pakistani debate
what if the Indian Subcontinent Muslim community ended up on your path?
what is the price of that. do you see how contextual it is?
In the richer parts of India, it has already happened.
Kerala is another part of India where the religions live in relative harmony, celebrate each other’s festivals and even some interfaith marriages are taking place.
Seen it in Goa too amongst Konkanis.
As India gets richer and women become freer/more educated, we will see more of these religious lines dissolve (just like racial lines have dissolved in the west to an extent. The white right wing exists but they exist because a significant part of the population has become so liberal).
Bollywood is the ultimate example of this where they have become so rich and westernized they freely marry across faiths (Disclaimer – I am distantly related to some Bollywood fraternity. Won’t go into too much details).
Thing is after a certain income level, religion is just a mild flavour like say your favourite band or movie.
I have just written a post
Kerala is another part of India where the religions live in relative harmony, celebrate each other’s festivals and even some interfaith marriages are taking place.
That is because Kerala (and South South India) is NOT Indo Aryan. Much more tolerant societies compared to Indo Aryan India.
My opinion is that Indo Aryan India has an inferiority complex, maybe because they were occupied by the Moguls.
I actually posted in a forum about the Pakistani complex:
They are not a part of the Islamic center.
They read about Arab history but Arabs look down on them and don’t give a damn about them.They are seen as labour by the Arab citizen and a useful security provider by the Arab leadership.
Other Muslims have pride in their own non Islamic histories (Iranians, Indonesians etc) or their Islamic histories (Arabs, Turks, Afghans etc).
Pakistani’s issue is that their own history is mostly Hindu history which they deny/rebel against (unlike Iranians/Indonesians) and they are not really part of Islamic history.
They are not Arabs or Iranians.
They can’t even claim Afghan history (like say the Afghan empire etc) because the actual Afghans hate them.
And even the Mughals they claim to be have more of their descendants in the Hindi heartlands than Pakistan. I know literal nawab descendants from the Lucknow/Hyderabd elite who are Mughal off shoots.
Even all the famous sites/capitals of the Mughal empire is in India. 4 of the 6 great Mughals are buried in India and almost all of the smaller ones.
Imagine claiming to be the descendant of Mughals and never getting to see the Taj Mahal.
I find this very interesting; you and I who have substantive Islamic ancestral heritage, are now very Indian-Dharmic in our orientation.
I have met Bahá’ís in India with fully Hindu names.
now for me this isn’t an issue; I’m a big believer in Dharmification. but then the idea is that in some ways; Kabir is a unique voice. I know he has elite privilege, so is unrepresentative but it is also interesting to see what is the cost of Muslim identity and what price is that worth.
my religious identity is that of a Bahá’í and I wouldn’t give that up (I hope); but I can see I am very fluid culturally and nationally; I can Dharmacise almost completely (virtually) since there is no “real cost.” Theologically my Faith is very flexible (Bahá’u’lláh is Bahá Bhagwan in India and our main Temple is that of a Lotus).
But I think it is important to recognise our limitations; I am non-Muslim and you are not Pakistan; so there are also limits to our commentary.
maybe for many Pakistan and South Asian Muslims; low prosperity is worth the cost of their Faith Identity?
Brown Pundits is exactly about eviscerating biases through exposure and while I sometimes feel Kabir pushes it, there is some truth to what he is saying.
Pakistan surprisingly is not really Mughal obsessed anymore or so I find.. it’s throwing roots into a local identity.
For what it’s worth, I am not personally that religious. Nor do I come from a particularly religious family. I am a Pakistani patriot–and that is what leads to most friction with other commenters here.
Of course, the Islamic identity is paramount for many (most?) Pakistanis. Polls have been doing showing that many people identify themselves as “Muslim” first and “Pakistani” second.
I believe that Pakistan should own all of the history that occurred on our national territory.
I presumed that. of course Pakistan cannot own IVC unless it also imbibes the value system.
the descendants of IVC are Lord Shiva etc.
the Vedas were composted on the plains of the Punjab.
We can own all the history that occurred on our lands. The “value system” is neither here nor there.
Can India own the history of the Mughals and the Delhi Sultanate while rejecting the “value system”?
Sorry, this is not a good argument.
India very much imbibes those cultures but subordinates them..
So if India can own the Mughal Empire, Pakistan can own IVC.
IVC etc are taught in Pakistani schools as part of our history. This is true even in the context of Pakistan Studies.
As a Pashtun am I not Pakistani then, or do only our turko-sayyid-arab-mughal Muhajirs in Karachi and also UK diaspora count? Reality is that the majority of Pakistanis dont think about creating elaborate historical backgrounds.
Good on you, just fyi, the site has this bizarre habit of sending comments (seemingly randomly) to ‘waiting for approval’, so it might not appear immediately, don’t be discouraged, it will show up.
I think Awais is a new commentator? but thank you for accepting and managing the pending comment..
UK diaspora are mainly Punjabi..
I think Pashtuns get a huge premium in Pakistan versus say Sindhis.
Muhajirs are the WASPs of Pakistan; our pathologies created the country but we are melting into its ether.
But yes but that’s exactly my heritage haha Sayyid Shi’ite Muhajir UrduSpeaker
Ah didnt mean to imply that British Pakistans are Muhajir, probably could have phrased ‘and also’ better.
Anyway, its true that early in Pakistans history the govt and civil service were strongly represented by of Muhajirs, today in Pakistan they are mainly thought of (politically) in the context of MQM & Karachi politics.
Why do you get a say in how Pakistan defines itself? Why should we have been “Dharmic in culture” (Whatever that means)? Our country is called the “Islamic Republic” of Pakistan. If we had wanted to be “Dharmic in culture”, there really would have been no reason for the Partition of India.
It can be argued that partition is Pakistan’s original sin and they are doomed to continue paying the price for it, until they undo it, at least culturally.
Now to clarify for your brilliant humanities educated brain, this is in no way meant to challenge the existence of Pakistan as a nation state, or its “sovereignty”. Its just a thought experiment and a question.
For someone who is consistently against any non-Pakistani expressing opinions or a “Say” on Pakistan, you sure do give yourself a lot of license in talking about India.
🙂 Kabir bhai, I marvel at your ability to ignore the logical fallacies in your own assertions while constantly parroting the ‘woe is me’ victimhood. It’s….quite something.
People are free to express opinions on whatever they want. But just like India can declare itself a Hindu Rashtra even if all Pakistanis hate the idea, Pakistan is free to be an Islamic Republic even if Indians don’t like it. It’s really not that complicated.
I’m not your “brother”. You’re an anti-Pakistan right wing bigot. I have absolutely no kinship with you.
‘bhai’ is a generic suffix that is used to express respect, not necessarily kinship. But then again, I’m sure you know this with your considerable ‘humanities’ knowledge and your self-professed liberal mindset.
Or maybe you genuinely don’t? Are you even from the subcontinent?
It’s quite funny, he was just calling someone else an anti-Pakistani right wing bigot but addressing them as ‘brother’ because he thought they were muslim.
🤣
I said “my brother in Islam”. It’s like when Christians say “my brother in Christ”.
In any case, you missed the sarcasm.
😀 https://www.brownpundits.com/2025/09/13/the-pakistani-inferiority-complex/#comment-117848
No quotes in yours, he rejected you, you insisted that all Indian Muslims are your brothers.
🙂 sry I can’t help how stupidly funny this is.
OK this is really not that complicated. Most Pakistanis consider Indian Muslims to be our brothers and sisters.
It’s totally fine that BB rejected me. He doesn’t like me. I’m not a fan of his either.
Anyway, it’s just rhetoric. It’s not really that important.
It is most unfortunate that Pakistanis feel a kinship towards the supposedly suffering Indian muslim, but not to minorities within Pakistani state borders, non-muslim or even muslim.
As I said earlier, the assertion of demanding majoritarian ‘supremacy’ based on some arbitrary criteria, is a snake that can’t help but eventually devour its own tail. And until and unless, the Pakistani state arrives at some sort of denouement on this, it is doomed to stay in this self-inflicted quicksand.
Can one make the argument that the Pakistani desire to wish away its ‘Indian-ness’ is a PTSD manifestation of the Central Asian invasions over centuries?
A powerful urge to disassociate oneself from the ‘losers’ of repeated conquest?
Non-Muslim Pakistanis are not my brothers but they are my co-citizens. I have nothing but respect for them since they are mostly very patriotic Pakistanis.
Indian Muslims are my brothers because we belong to the same Ummah. Why is this so hard to understand?
“India” is a modern nation-state. I have absolutely no issues with being a South Asian Muslim. My grandparents were subjects of British India. Two of them were even born in what is today India. I have absolutely no issues with any of this.
I think you have to earn the right to call someone “bhai”. You haven’t earned that right with me. I really do not like you.
This, from the man-child that whines incessantly about ‘respect’, humanities, liberalism and what-not.
I used the phrase ‘own goal’ in a different comment today, I do have to acknowledge the unparalleled consistency and Himalayan peaks achieved by a … modern-day Pele of commentary in this department, at least on this site. Greatness walks amongst us. In this, you definitely do have my respect, Bhai. 🙂
I’m from the United States. I grew up there. We don’t call randos “brother”.
oh I see. You profess to be umreeki. Hmm, well general norms and manners would require that you do not impose your cultural conventions on others. In large parts of the Indian subcontinent, appending the suffix ‘bhai’ and ‘behen’, is simply a matter of polite discourse.
I’m surprised that somebody who asserts to being a ‘published’ scholoar of humanities, related to subcontinental music and culture, is unaware of this. Or perhaps you are just pretending that you are, so that you can pretend to be of ‘higher station’ by asserting your vague associations with Umreeka. I have observed this pattern where you repeatedly feel compelled to brandish your ‘status’ based on wealth, citizenship, residency in certain posh areas of Lahore and so on. To my limited understanding, it is emblematic of a certain feudal ethos embedded in the pseudo-elites of a highly stratified society. Does that make sense?
Why are you suddenly so concerned about polite discourse? You’ve been utterly vile to me in the past. Calling someone “brother” when they have asked you not to is condescending.
“vague associations with America”. How vague exactly? I am a citizen. I spent my entire childhood in suburban Washington DC. The only passport I carry is the US one. That’s not vague at all.
Why is “published” in quotes? I am published. That is simply a fact. Google is your friend. I have had pieces in academic journals (including India’s Economic and Political Weekly) and now a book out.
The more you write I am convinced that you are An An in the previous Brown Pundits when Razib was the moderators.
AnAn is on WhatsApp; we are very much in touch .
It could’ve been Muslim in religion but Dharmic in culture like what so many Indian Muslims
One cannot be a Muslim (or Christian) and be Dharmic at the same time. Christian and Islam only one True God
Yes. I don’t understand what “Dharmic in culture” means. But it is a non-starter in Pakistan.
You can advocate whatever you like for India. That’s fine.
Pakistan is called the “Islamic Republic of Pakistan”. The whole point of the country’s existence is for us to practice Islam the way we see fit. So we are not going to become “Dharmic in culture”. Literally no one in the country wants that.
Not to mention that it is a 97% Muslim country. So this is really a non issue.
More specifically, it is to let go of the rigidity set in theology that reinforces the differences rather than the ties that bind us. Nothing is permanent but change.
Good luck with that thinking.
Even “Hindus” will not give up their Kali and other gods. Even less with the Laws of Manu
I don’t think Hindus are required to give up their gods. But neither should Muslims be required to curtail their practice of Islam in any way–other than in order to conform to the law of the land.
Even in Pakistan (which is not at all a secular state) Hindus celebrate Holi and Diwali and that is accepted by the mainstream society.
XTM says
I have met Bahá’ís in India with fully Hindu names
That is because Bahá’ís is a religion founded in the 19th century/
Baháʼu’lláh (1817–1892), who claimed to be said prophet in 1863 and who had to endure both exile and imprisonment; and his son,
Kind of like the Mormons (founded by Joseph Smith) or Seventh Day Adventist
Bahá’ís not exactly a region of Peace
Mírzá Husayn ʻAlí Núrí was one of the early followers of the Báb,and later took the title of Baháʼu’lláh. In August 1852, a few Bábís made a failed attempt to assassinate the Shah, Naser al-Din Shah Qajar.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%CA%BC%C3%AD_Faith
Thank you for your comment. Just to clarify: the 1852 assassination attempt you mention was not carried out by Bahá’ís; it occurred after the Báb’s martyrdom, before the Bahá’í Faith was formally founded, and was never sanctioned by Bahá’u’lláh. In fact, Bahá’u’lláh steered the emerging community in an entirely peaceful direction, a hallmark of the Faith ever since.
This time I’ve left your comment up. Going forward, though, I’d kindly ask that when discussing the Bahá’í Faith you do so with sensitivity and avoid quoting Wikipedia out of context. If you’re curious or have questions, I’d be glad to answer them.
So many are sensitive to their faith, but not to other, eg Kabir and Islam
Anyway
I did ask a question which you avoided.
Prior to your family became Bahá’í believers what was your heritage. Some of the names you use are Jewish.
You also claim to be a Zionist which is at odds with claims of Bahá’í belief.in Peace
Thanks but to clarify a few points:
I have no Jewish ancestry (my non-Muslim ancestry is Zoroastrian the rest are Qaqazai Sunni, Shi’ite Sayyid Muhajir, Shi’ite Persian).
I don’t think Kabir and I can be meaningfully compared, especially when it comes to faith and public expression. More importantly, references to key historical events deserve care and context; not analogy or insinuation.
As for Zionism, I support the idea that the Jewish people have a right to Israel, but not at the cost of Palestinian dignity or sovereignty. My personal hope is for a binational, confederated state, one where Right of Return applies equally both for pre-Nakba Palestinians and for Jews displaced from Arab countries.
This isn’t at odds with my Bahá’í beliefs. On the contrary; the Faith calls for justice, reconciliation, and peaceful coexistence, even in the most complex historical circumstances. I also support the undoing of Partition across Punjab; consistent with a broader vision of post-colonial justice and cross-border resettlement. I don’t accept genocides, ethnic cleansing or national borders trumping basic humanity (Turko-Greek population exchange etc).
Happy to answer any sincere questions — just prefer we do so with mutual care and accuracy.