Open Thread, 05/02/2020 Brown Pundits

93 Comments

Do your thing.

A minor note: like a frog being boiled, I’ve unconsciously been increasing the threshold of moderation on a lot of these posts. This applies to my posts in particular, as I’m more ‘liberal’ on other threads and let them rip.

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93 Replies to “Open Thread, 05/02/2020 Brown Pundits”

  1. Reading some of the comments, it appears that body image is somewhat of a big problem for Indian American kids, especially males who have grown up in the West.

    I am wondering how much of this down to the sports culture in the US, where some of the most popular sports (football and basketball) emphasize physical power and size more than skills. Indian sports heroes like Sachin Tendulkar and Virat Kohli would not make much sense to North American audiences used to a very different definition of athlete.

    Growing up in India, sports related touchstones revolved around skills, usually learning to swing and spin balls, particular shots and take difficult catches. Even when soccer gained a bit of popularity, speed and ball control mattered, which are again unrelated to a imposing physique.

    I wonder if this is the underlying reason, or if there are other factors involved.

    1. American culture and dating scene is a lot more looks-conscious. Looks just matter a lot more. Also, even if you are a near total economic failure in the US, you likely won’t starve and will have a shelter, as long as you get a job and stay away from alcohol, drugs, and having illegitimate children. Women are also independent and make more. So criteria for what is attractive or not in a man becomes more about looks than it does in Indian culture.

      In terms of sports, bullying, etc. Yeah physical size matters. And desi kids, even the so called “martial” descendants tend to be, on average, at least a bit smaller than their white and black counter parts. They also come from families who prioritize education more and sports less. This is all slowly changing, with parents realizing that prioritizing well-roundedness is more important than just prioritizing academics.

      Sports and sports culture, not just cricket, tends to just be part of the American conscious more. So many middle aged Americans are runners and cyclists and lift weights or play recreational sports compared to the urban and upper and middle classes of India, where playing sports is a largely reserved leisure activity for school and college aged people. Of course, as global culture homogenizes all of this is changing.

      But effects of the past differences, which were even obviously larger than those of today, are quite evident. The outcomes of the positive changes being made among S Asians will pay off their dividends in about a generation.

      1. thewarlock, this argument is a bit teleological. (slapstik, hope I am using the word correctly). You are basically saying that since ‘looks’ seem to matter, there must be coherent, logical reasons for it to be so.

        From an another point of view, as scarcity diminishes and life and sustenance become more secure, looks should become less important, since first appearances are important to gauge basic parameters like fertility and strength. Such factors have had longstanding technological superseders. In fact, something like using strength to gain advantage in normal life would typically be a crime. Also, all the Americans I have known value money and the acquisition of wealth tremendously, it is an extremely consumerist society.

        So it doesnt make much sense that 25+ year old adults are using such metrics to choose mates.

        My theory is that this obsession with body image is the result of America’s non-skill based mass sporting culture and the complete dominance of American entertainment media over the lives of most American’s non-material imagination.

        The entertainment, whether in India or the US, will always rely on sex to sell stories. Its effective and quite easy these days. But in India, alternatives to the media driven imagination exist via religion, perhaps that makes a difference. I wonder if religious young Americans are less body conscious than irreligious ones.

    2. “I am wondering how much of this down to the sports culture in the US, where some of the most popular sports (football and basketball) emphasize physical power and size more than skills.”

      This reminds me of how India went from world beaters in field hockey to also-rans once fitness and conditioning started becoming important post the 70s.

      Pakistan did do better till 90s as they were generally a richer country than us during that period. But they’re languishing much below us in rankings now.

      Lately, football has been growing in popularity exponentially outside traditional strongholds of Bengal, Kerala, Goa, and NE. Especially in big cities with access to streams of European leagues.

      Lot of money has started going into this. I wonder what could be the positive externalities of this.

      As the game becomes more popular and demand for Indian teams to do well rises, we might see a virtuous cycle of investment and development kick in.

      The physical training required for football is an order of magnitude more rigorous than cricket. I’d imagine kids who drop out of football can still do well in other sports depending on inclination and phenotype.
      So there might be a larger pool of players available for volleyball, tennis etc.

      Football is a pretty democratic sport as far as physiology is concerned. You can have diminutive teams like Barcelona or Japanese national team do quite well.

      Unless we are a race of absolute cretins, we should be able to do reach somewhere.

      1. When will our day come in Football? I wish it comes in our lifetimes. I have been hearing we will be reasonably good(<50) someday for over 10 years now, now we have ISL and foreign coaches, well lit stadiums but the rankings(and quality) still sucks.

        I had a naturally talented friend who was picked to play for Mohun Bagan's B(or C idk) team from BITS-Mesra. They asked him to drop school, move to Kolkata and they would get him a sham degree from some local college. His parents reacted predictably and his football days were over. The dude ended up sleeping around and smoking weed after that. Never managed to do well at academics either. In my college I had known a lot of Bengali guys (honestly most were not talented) who wanted to be footballers for Bagan/ATK/E-Bengal but became engineers. So a lot of our potential is stifled, I really wish I could see India in WC before I die.

        1. “I really wish I could see India in WC before I die”

          It will be one of those “India can become the next China if it just does X,Y,Z” thing

          1. “I really wish I could see India in WC before I die”

            Might happen sooner than you think. There’ll be 48 teams from 2026 world cup onwards.

            India recently broke into the top-100 recently albeit briefly. I wouldn’t put it past us to qualify for one of the future world cups as a fluke even if we don’t do anything and carry on with the current setup.

            “India can become the next China if it just does X,Y,Z”
            Even China can’t reliably qualify for world cups right now.
            Long term success requires long term planning. The Japanese have a 100-year plan to win the world cup.
            https://thesefootballtimes.co/2018/07/01/japan-and-the-100-year-vision/

            We are no Japan but we need to figure out a way to get better.

            “So a lot of our potential is stifled”

            Football is a working class sport in most of the world. In middle-income to rich countries, these people can pick up trades or work factory jobs if things don’t work out. There’s no safety net here.

            For middle classes and above, the expected potential income pursuing an engineering degree is much higher than one pursuing football.

            “now we have ISL and foreign coaches, well lit stadiums but the rankings(and quality) still sucks.”

            We don’t have much depth. The total number of teams in ISL is 10 and in I-League is 11. The latter is only 2-tier.

            This for a country with 29 states and 1.4 billion people.

            Compare this to tiny countries like Belgium that have multi-tier football leagues with 20-ish teams in each tier.

            Or even to cricket in India where we have active Ranji trophy and club cricket scene apart from IPL.

            That kind of trickle down will take time even if there’s a lot of investment up top. We are not going to be genuinely competitive at an Asia level till that happens.

          2. I doubt we will ever excel in sports or even become economically developed. I think our genes and culture are lacking tbh. Soccer might be our best hope but I’ll shit my pants if the diaspora can produce a decent player in any of the four major American sports.

        2. “I doubt we will ever excel in sports or even become economically developed.”

          Why so sad, buddy?

  2. I remember Razib alluding to his visit(s) to Finland and some Pagan festival he attended there. Perhaps he could write about any insights he has on Finnish people, culture etc.

  3. curious basically mid-sommer is big across northern Europe. ppl get fucked up. it’s pretty pagan. it’s like Christmas in summer. also ppl get naked and shit.

    the Finns were christianized late and their peasant culture was pretty folk pagan late. one reason kalevala could be made up (it’s made up, but draws from folk tales)

    1. You said ppl get fucked up. What does it mean?
      Have you watched movie on a same pagan cult story named Midsommar?

      Do festivals like Durga Pooja, Holi , etc are Considered Pagan by people in the west?

      I seen a video of Famous RW White Knight channel (they got banned) and the presenter associated Kali Mata with satanic elements and a death cult(could be true) originating in India.

  4. On the thread on the Kalash and the Indian Brahmin posts, i was thinking how much does it really challenge the current orthodoxy of both sides of the camp.

    The left would be disturbed with idea that Hinduism originated within India and lot of things which they associate with Hinduism (ritual pollution, caste structures, Vegetarianism ) could be aspects of their egalitarian IVC-Dravidian fold. Not easy for them

    The right also would not be ok with ideas that their oldest scriptures are not Hindu and their gods (irrespective of how minor they might be like Indra) are not Hindu gods. Especially for a religion which takes pride of being the “oldest” and continuous (Sanatan) religion.

    All in all, two great posts!

  5. Pundits are maybe overwhelmed with other topics and this is perhaps the reason why there was no any response on recent questions – what was the symbol of Christianity before the cross (after Jelena, the wife of Roman-Serbian Emperor Constantine the Great touched the crucifixion cross) and the origin/meaning of the name of – Asia.

    EM + MT: Bravo Texas + Bravo Razib!

  6. the way indians are falling over each other to buy liquor is sad/funny ??!!!. now any fig leaf of (false) modesty in this regard has dropped.

  7. the way indians are falling over each other to buy liquor is sad/funny ??!!!. now any fig leaf of (false) modesty in this regard has dropped.

    1. It really is quite annoying this. But I also blame our elders, the phobia of anything foreign (except material benefits/goods) is so intense, that people actually think drinking some whiskey is some big act of rebellion and assertion.

  8. Had an argument with my parents (who can be relied upon to take the robot-partisan Hindu nationalist position) the other day. I argued at length that Modi and gang had gone too far with the lockdowns and stuff, but they didn’t really care.

    Srikanth Krishnamachary was commenting on this earlier, that Indians don’t seem too bothered by the economic harms of the lockdown, and aren’t really jumping to go back to work like Americans (a highly “workist” culture) are.

    Another reason why I am broadly pessimistic about India’s economic/geopolitical future.

    1. “Another reason why I am broadly pessimistic about India’s economic/geopolitical future.”

      +1

      Agreed now lets figure out how to change this.

    2. HMB, not disagreeing with you, but maybe expanding some context. The indian salaried classes are not highly debt leveraged the way americans are. Very normal for rent to be <15% of household net income and everyone's cost of living has actually gone down significantly, there's less profiteering than whats happening in the US. The lower classes/daily wage earners are getting f*d for sure, but their subsistence costs are like $25 a month per family. Most people I know are supporting 5-10 low income families through this pandemic, apart from maids and what not. Its a disaster, but not from the view of the chattering classes. The web of dependency in indian society doesn't really float accountability upward.

    3. The good economic days were last seen really in 2008-09. It has been so far back that Indians now only relate to how they were year or couple of years ago. If things look marginally better they are satisfied. And all around they see other countries not doing that great either. (My dad for example is happy that he is in India, after watching just the news in US, and no explaining helps)

    1. I was thinking about the work-culture part of the argument. Population density has been like this for all of history. Yet we have had our asses handed to us so relying on natural advantages is not the way to go.

  9. How to make Indians win Michelin stars?
    I will declare victory with Indian cuisine(s) being celebrated or Indian (defined as SAARC minus Pakistan) chefs doing great or even brand-new Indian (or stolen but branded Indian) cuisine being created and made famous.

    I have a cousin who worked as a (side-kick, Sous?) chef for the Savoy in Mussoorie and currently in the Taj group. Didn’t see any special drive or passion in him and his colleagues over the years, just guys who did bad in school and couldn’t get a job anywhere else. Like our engineers our chefs seem unimaginative, unmotivated and laid-back. Almost everyone who is any good goes on to do catering for Cruise ships, hardly the training grounds for future Ducasse, Ramsay or Robuchon.

    1. Well the Michelin guide doesn’t currently cover any Indian cities, so maybe start there?

      In any event there was a very cool Indian molecular gastronomy restaurant (Gaggan’s) in Bangkok. Which was Michelin stared multiple years and was ranked the top restaurant in Asia at one point.

      I think chef Gaggan shut it down last year and is working on a new concept.

      Mostly going by the diaspora and my own social networks here but most South Asians I meet are quite driven.

      1. Michelin guides for Indian cities is a good first step. Saw Gaggan on MasterChef Asia.

        Economic immigrants that form the bulk of diaspora are quite driven that’s why they immigrated in the first place. But our homeland_server’s work culture is not comparable to the west or Easter Asia.

        I think if we have examples to emulate we would do well, Gaggan is a step in the right direction. Entire village of Phogats wrestles, entire village of Akhil Kumar and Vijender Singh boxes. It is probably down to the lack of celebrated, visible and successful people in these non traditional fields.

        1. I have lived in Haryana in sonipat and have met Yogeshwar Dutt (bronze medallist in wresling at the 2012 Olympics ) and lived in Jaat parts of Delhi for around 12 years and can say that people who live in villages have huge potential in sports and encouraged by their parents to do wresling, boxing , football etc . Just a shame that most people don’t continue and go to engg colleges because of no local tournament and no stable income.
          Myself including having played cricket and football for 6-7 years.
          No shock that most haryanvis snatch medals in Olympics in wresling and boxing and have huge potential in sports such as football ( which is dominated by south and north east ).

          Sushil Kumar being pure vegetarian won a silver olympic medal if he can do it so can everyone.

          1. There was a stat that Haryana has 3 percent of India’s population and quarter of India’s Common wealth medals or something.

            I would say even bigger than Haryana is India’s tribal belt in terms of opportunity lost. These people have even less scope and resources and have gone on to do wonders. I have played with and against them ,and they used to routinely beat us in all school and college tournaments, even though they were 3 or 4 years younger than us.

          2. @Harshvardhan
            ‘Jaat parts of Delhi’
            Najafgarh ?

            ‘no local tournament and no stable income.’
            Living off Cricket might be possible. A very strange thing I have been seeing is the advent of body-building and Mr Delhi South-east. So many Haryanvi ex-cricket, badminton, hockey guys getting into it for some reason. Most likely they get into it initially due to injury recovery. My sample set is biased as I met the guys in the gym. One theory I have is that bodybuilding is like a weak modern-day equivalent of akhara pahalwan (mud-wrestling) for city guys.

            ‘pure vegetarian won a silver olympic medal’
            No one cares about vegetarianism at Olympics and no competitor cares about this virtue signalling. And Indians have used this trope for too long, a very large percentage of Indians including Brahmins, Baniyas (even Jains) are meat-eaters

          3. @Saurav
            Agreed. Met (Jharkhand/Chattisgarh/Orissa tribal) archers from Tata’s archery center in Jamshedpur. They were a focused and down to earth lot. Hopefully we will get success-stories soon. I personally never had the balls to spar(in boxxing) with Haryanvi guys(even those 4-5 years younger) at the gym but they do seem to have raw talent and a very big heart (for 12-15 year olds) to take beating, pass out and stand up again.

            The thing is all this talk of talent will never get us anywhere. I have been to a Sports Authority of India center and currently study at a medium rung(in sports) university in America. My American university has ATLEAST 10 times more facilities and 1000 times better coaches/support staff. More people from my university have won the medals than all of India so far. If we don’t invest into technique/technology we will never win at (any) sports ever, not even 100 years from now. And finally there is an acute lack of sports culture/physical culture in India.

        2. I love seeing Indian in non traditional fields. Didn’t Indian Accent win a michelin star? While on the toic of food does anybody know if the Pashtun origins of aushak and dalut ki chaat are true?

          I think our native food culture sucks tbh.

          I also wonder why there aren’t more cheeses native to India given that the river water buffalo is native to India?

          There’s like one Indian in NA in the NFL, MLB, NBA and NHL combined. I wonder what our potential for height is?
          Also doesn’t vegetarianism make it harder to grow big and strong? Not impossible but harder? I think if we best if we added a lot of meat to our diet (which does some have good aspects high in dairy and legumes).

          1. ‘I love seeing Indian in non traditional fields. Didn’t Indian Accent win a michelin star?’

            Too less number of michelin stared restaurants. Yeh dil mange more!

            ‘While on the toic of food does anybody know if the Pashtun origins of aushak and dalut ki chaat are true?’

            No clue.

            ‘I think our native food culture sucks tbh.’

            True, first thing to see is that much of (popular) Indian food is messy (smells get into clothes and cabinets, smoky, difficult to clean) and not very well suited to be cooked in small(non-airy) kitchens. Maybe most of the non oil-onion-garam_masala-curry are not getting enough attention.

            ‘I also wonder why there aren’t more cheeses native to India given that the river water buffalo is native to India?’

            Maybe(for most cheese) because we didn’t have rennet which is extracted from belly of slaughtered cows.

            ‘There’s like one Indian in NA in the NFL, MLB, NBA and NHL combined. I wonder what our potential for height is?’

            Hopefully we will also gain inches like the Japanese, fingers crossed.

            ‘Also doesn’t vegetarianism make it harder to grow big and strong? Not impossible but harder? I think if we best if we added a lot of meat to our diet (which does some have good aspects high in dairy and legumes).’

            It sure seems to make things worse. Listen to thewarlock as he is a doctor but my experience is that it is comparatively very difficult for vegetarians to put on muscles (different from maintaining muscles). But anyways Indians are NOT VEGETARIANS. Let us stop talking about the vegetarians, they are a minority.

            ‘a lot of meat to our diet’
            This is something I have thought. Amount of meat consumed by non-vegetarians in India is minuscule(almost laughable) compared to Americans. Even non-vegetarians in India are not eating enough.

          2. “It sure seems to make things worse. Listen to thewarlock as he is a doctor but my experience is that it is comparatively very difficult for vegetarians to put on muscles (different from maintaining muscles). But anyways Indians are NOT VEGETARIANS. Let us stop talking about the vegetarians, they are a minority.

            ‘a lot of meat to our diet’
            This is something I have thought. Amount of meat consumed by non-vegetarians in India is minuscule(almost laughable) compared to Americans. Even non-vegetarians in India are not eating enough.”

            The Indian states that have a reputation for producing big strong people, the great martial races blah blah blah, are the ones that are most vegetarian, more than 30% in many cases (Punjab, Haryana, Rajasthan).

            The places that have a reputation for being scrawny, small (like Bengal and Tamil Nadu) are overwhelmingly meat eating, and interestingly the ones who look more well built tend to be upper caste vegetarians.

            I’m not saying vegetarianism is particularly good, but this link between “strong” “masculine” meat-eating and “weak” “languid” vegetarianism isn’t all that clear.

            Every major national dietetic association agrees that a well-balanced vegan diet is suitable for humans in all stages of the human life cycle, including during pregnancy and for athletes. And there are athletes in the Big 4 North American sports leagues who are vegan or vegetarian.

            And while vegetarians may be a minority, I don’t understand why you and others seem to be angry about their existence or them getting discussed? I get that people in India are very sensitive to this subject and view vegetarianism as some evil Sanghi brahman thing, but live and let live. They should be talked about as well.

            Sounding a lot like the Pakistani supremacists who talk about how martial their race is unlike the weak dark veggie Hindoos. Ironically, the Punjabis and Rajasthanis they may accept into their elite martial race are far more likely to be vegetarian than the dark AASI weak languid Bengalis and South Indians blah blah blah.

            Well balanced diets, foods fortified with micronutrients, regular exercise, supplements, are all key, regardless of whether you eat meat or not. No need to hate.

          3. @Hoju

            ‘The Indian states that have a reputation for producing big strong people, the great martial races blah blah blah, are the ones that are most vegetarian, more than 30% in many cases (Punjab, Haryana, Rajasthan).’

            It is actually much more than 30% in NW-ern states. I have never addressed anyone as ‘martial race’.

            ‘The places that have a reputation for being scrawny, small (like Bengal and Tamil Nadu) are overwhelmingly meat eating, and interestingly the ones who look more well built tend to be upper caste vegetarians.’

            Even the ‘well built upper caste vegetarians’ look scrawny compared to say most of the Koreans and Japanese. I am guessing per-capita meat consumption for even Bengal/Tamil-Nadu would be low.

            ‘I’m not saying vegetarianism is particularly good, but this link between “strong” “masculine” meat-eating and “weak” “languid” vegetarianism isn’t all that clear.’

            I didn’t say any of this.

            Every major national dietetic association agrees that a well-balanced vegan diet is suitable for humans in all stages of the human life cycle, including during pregnancy and for athletes. And there are athletes in the Big 4 North American sports leagues who are vegan or vegetarian.

            The vegetarian athletes are an exceptions not the norm.

            ‘And while vegetarians may be a minority, I don’t understand why you and others seem to be angry about their existence or them getting discussed? I get that people in India are very sensitive to this subject and view vegetarianism as some evil Sanghi brahman thing, but live and let live. They should be talked about as well.’

            Agreed that they should be talked about too. I should not have said that. Sanghi and Brahman are two different things. My beef with Sangh and its thugs/retards is of no relevance here. A very large percentage of Bamans from UP, Bihar, Haryana, Jharkhand, Jammu eat meat only stark variation I saw were in Rajasthan.

            ‘Sounding a lot like the Pakistani supremacists who talk about how martial their race is unlike the weak dark veggie Hindoos. Ironically, the Punjabis and Rajasthanis they may accept into their elite martial race are far more likely to be vegetarian than the dark AASI weak languid Bengalis and South Indians blah blah blah.’

            I have no clue why you would say this to me it makes no sense and is entirely baseless.

            ‘Well balanced diets, foods fortified with micronutrients, regular exercise, supplements, are all key, regardless of whether you eat meat or not. No need to hate.’

            I am for any diet that helps remove our chronic malnutrition, stunting and wasting. I don’t care if it is vegetarian. I love Indians more than I love chicken/cows/lambs. Lets take whatever works and helps us win.

        3. I have eaten at Michelin starred restaurants in California, Japan and the UK.

          I have also eaten at Nizamuddin in Delhi and in Delhi Durbar (the working class one) on Grant Road in Mumbai.

          I will take the latter any day and hope people who cook like that dont fall for the temptation of this Michelin scam.

  10. Indians in general just perform way below athletic potential. Lot of room to grow. I think mock meats can be big in India. Good protein in them too.

    Jats of haryana actually get more encouragement and better nutrition than vast majority. I think groups like dalits are way underrepresented.

    A guju in the US, Bhavsar, won a bronze in gymnastics of all things in 2008. Indians need to get out tribal mindset and promote nutrition and sports for all. Jat this, South this, East this is a lot of BS.

    https://usagym.org/pages/post.html?PostID=6120

    Vegetarianism makes one only weaker if protein is deficient. If protein, especially animal protein via sufficient dairy is at par or even whey foe that matter, there is no difference.

    Milk and chicken are similar quality proteins by BCCA quality. Eggs even beats both.

    1. But meat combined with dairy, eggs and legumes allows for an above average in protein diet. I think we need more protein than replacement level.

      I just don’t get the sense of encouraging vegetarianism. You can be a Hindu and still eat meat.

      1. people can do what they want. 2/3s of Indians do eat meat. But hitting macros of 1g per pound isn’t hard on a vegetarian diet. Just eat enough and you don’t need to be a fat ass to do it.
        Also, supplements have made it a joke
        eating meat can be argued as bad for the environment in terms of resource extraction relative to plant based foods, immoral because it involves killing sentient beings that can feel pain (plants cannot feel pain because they lack a nervous system- something proven 100x over again via life sciences literature), and just pointless in modern era of nutrition. Heck a lot of pro athletes are going vegan. Just watch game changers on netflix.

        But again, people can do what they want. But nutrition to me is a bad reason alone just to eat meat. Even just saying it tastes good and you don’t care about animal lives and pain is a better excuse.

        You eat meat to get protein. Protein is broken down into amino acids. Any reasonable plant based diet can give you that combo. And it is a joke to get with dairy and even easier to get with eggs added in (I only consume dairy btw).

      2. “I just don’t get the sense of encouraging vegetarianism. You can be a Hindu and still eat meat.”

        There are many arguments in favor of vegetarianism and veganism.

        Every major national dietetic association in the world agrees that a well planned vegan diet is suitable for humans at all stages of the human life cycle, including pregnancy and for athletes.

        It has nothing to do with being Hindu. You can be a Hindu who eats meat as the majority of Hindus do. But there are at least secular considerations in the discussion that should be examined.

    2. @thewarlock
      Agreed.

      ‘Jat this, South this, East this is a lot of BS’

      Yes really tired of this BS.

  11. i think the env. issues are overdone. the ethical args are more persuasive to me. a lot of the feed that animals consume is so low-quality humans would never eat it. people don’t appreciate the role of ruminants in reprocessing that stuff.

    1. That’s more in the US though right? Meat Europe and West Asia doesn’t use those shitty feeds to the same degree.

      I love meat. I think my love of bacon cheeseburgers would make me hated by both Hindus and Muslims in India.

      1. I mean I have done animal research in the lab. I value human life over animal life. Whether it was projects I did in cancer or diabetes, I always felt bad experimenting on and euthanizing animals, but I felt it was for a reasonable causes, namely the amelioration of human health and alleviation of suffering.

        If I were stranded on a desert island with only animals, I would eat the animals to live. I just think in this world of relatively so many options I don’t see a good reason to eat meat, especially just for the “taste.” I won’t judge some random tribe of inuits with few resources in the artic eating seals. I mean it is all context dependent.

        Anyway humans treat each other like shit enough. I want to see less suffering of both animals and humans and think both goals can be tackled together but I definitely much more heavily prioritize reducing nonsensical conflict between humans that causes needless death, despair, and destruction.

        1. “If I were stranded on a desert island with only animals, I would eat the animals to live.”

          If I lived on an island with no plants and no animals and only other humans, I would eat them. 🙂

    2. “i think the env. issues are overdone. the ethical args are more persuasive to me. a lot of the feed that animals consume is so low-quality humans would never eat it. people don’t appreciate the role of ruminants in reprocessing that stuff.”

      The environmental issues are massive, though. Have you read the UN’s report on animal agriculture and its impacts? If everyone starts adopting diets with American levels of meat intake, which so many Indians are eager to do (in part because eating meat is liberal and cool there), I think you’d have to take it pretty seriously.

  12. yeah i love red meat in particular. and fish. not poultry too much. my wife doesn’t like meat so we don’t eat much at home. so not eating out has crimped my carnivore style 🙁

    1. Have you tried Kerela style beef fry? I heard its delicious.
      I love fish (all seafood really minus shellfish and shrimp) as well especially branzino, salmon , artic char, halibut and red snapper. And smoked salmon, smoked sturgeon, smoked whitefish salad on a bagel with red onions and jalapenos. And lobster of course. And Italian style grilled eel is one of the best meals I’ve ever eaten.
      If its not too intrusive which region of the US do you live in?

    1. I did. And its almost but not completely the same.
      just like the difference between margarine and real butter.

  13. Hello!

    I’ve been reading through this blog (and the comments) for almost 2 weeks now (mainly all the posts related to IVC).

    I came across those 2 papers by Narasimhan et al. about a month ago and that’s how I found this blog.

    I don’t know a lot about history or genetics or linguistics like any of you do, so I doubt I’ll be able to contribute anything at all, but there are lots of doubts that I have, hope I’m not bothering you guys.

    The page for IVC on Wikipedia lists Mehrgarh as a “pre-Harappan civilization”. However a few years ago I read that Bhirrana is the oldest Harappan site. How can Mehrgarh be pre-Harappan even though Bhirrana is older? What’s going on here?

    1. It is just partial information from wikipedia confounded by a lot of related stuff on the side. There is information regarding Bhirrana on the Bhirrana page, they aren’t trying to actively hide it. There are dates older than 7000 BC not only in Bhirrana but also in Uttar Pradesh (Jhusi). The current reddit equivalent mainstream idea regarding the pre-IVC era is a movement of neolithic farmers and hence that is what is told to the general public on the summary pages that don’t explicitly discuss Bhirrana .etc. This idea is built on a house of cards and thus it too shall pass as direct DNA evidence from neolithic and pre-neolithic south Asia is published. It has already begun to shake with the Rakhigarhi paper but that is just the beginning.

      David Reich alluded to this back in early 2019 or late 2018. I remember seeing a map showing unpublished samples back in late 2019 and a few of those dots were in south Asia. IDK about the time period or any other details, but the data points needed for a paper on the topic of neolithic and pre-neolithic south Asia might already exist in a backlog.

      1. There’s also a continent of people who downplay IVC sites in India such as the ones you mentioned but also sites like Lothal and exaggerate the importance of sites in Balochistan, Afghanistan, Sindh and Pakistani Punjab.

        1. lol if Lothal was in Pak, they would be bragging like crazy how its the first port for the region. The fact that it is in Gujarat irks the racialist gang. It also irks them that IVC ranged from 0-50% AASI. And someone who is a Guju shudra like modi with likely very low steppe and about 55-45 ratio for Iranic vs. AASI DNA is closer genetically to being part of the IVC continuum than many of the residents of the area today whose ancestors were more disproportionately, what many in modern terms would and what many propaganda mouthpieces when convenient call, “raped.”

          1. I would imagine that Western IVC sites have less AASI though. Not that it matters. They care more about Arab ancestry than IVC ancestry (whether West or South Eurasian).

            I hate how Western leftists buy their shit. But then I again I don’t like Western leftists either way (as they tend to ruin everything from sports to videogames to food),

      2. I actually went back and checked the IVC Wikipedia page’s history.
        Someone removed the mention of Bhirrana from the page earlier this year, there was an entire paragraph dedicated to it and now it’s gone.

  14. lol there is almost always so much sucking up some Indians do to some groups, expecting each other to save them. They look to banias for wealth creation. They look to Jats for Olympic medals. They look to Brahmins for nobels.

    How about they fucking stop and just try to develop everyone and see who gets a ahead. Caste and tribalism so engrained that people completely underestimate themselves and behave like absolute clowns. We have a grown man here who recreationally boxes who won’t “dare” box 12 year old kids from a certain ethnic group out of fear. This is straight panzy shit. Like if you are trained in a martial art as a grown man, you should be able to beat the vast majority of all 12 year olds, regardless of ethnic group. Like so much BS.

    When you pigeon hole people you erode meritocracy and do not get the best talent. I brought up a US Guju who won an Olympic bronze in gymnastics. Hell I just looked up his caste to prove to you guys how dumb this BS is. He is from woodworking so I assume shudra caste aka similar to Patels. Do you really think that would ever happen in India right now with current poor attitudes and facilities? Just despicable.

    You guys sound like the old aunties and uncles who told me not to do powerlifting style training and how it isn’t in my blood. Like wtf. Fucking develop the talent and encourage people to pursue what they are good at and do it without these stupid dismissive cultural hangups. Only then will the cream rise.

    Did the Chinese who were described as diminutive in the 19th century cower away? Or did they develop some of the best raw weightlifting talent in the world? Seriously like just wow. People need to be less parochial.

    1. I agree with everything you said. Even in North America South Asians are so underdeveloped. I have friends who claim they couldn’t play sports in high school because they prioritized. WTF? Do you even know what a scholar athlete is? You can get good grades and play sports.

    2. @thewarlock
      Dude that’s unnecessarily below the belt just for the sake of sounding cool. I never said Haryanvis are always better than others, I just said the ones in my gym had raw talent. I was 18 yo and lanky training for maybe 10 months that guy was maybe 14-15 but was playing under 16 nationals. No shame (panzy?) in admitting he was better and he was obviously much bigger than me.

      1. I apologize. I misinterpreted what you were saying and should have clarified the context

        “I personally never had the balls to spar(in boxxing) with Haryanvi guys(even those 4-5 years younger) at the gym but they do seem to have raw talent and a very big heart (for 12-15 year olds) to take beating, pass out and stand up again.”

        My interpretation was that you had the same training background. And at 17, you wouldn’t fight a single 12-year old of that ethnic groups because of some natural gift they had over you. I basically took the most extreme interpretation of your comment, instead of asking for more details.

        I too was lanky growing up, and I wasn’t naturally athletic or anything. Some of my cousins were very much so. It’s more of a “me” thing because I hit puberty so late and in middle school and high school I wanted to spend my time playing video games instead of trying to better myself athletically.

  15. I don’t want to curb the enthusiasm but before we have high dreams we should also have a reality check of sorts. Like some polygenic test for different kinds of athletic performances. The Chinese aren’t a very good comparison since they don’t have the start differences that are found in India.

    Given the endogamy over the last 2,000 years and the bottlenecks associated with it, it wouldn’t be a surprise if different groups of people were better suited to different kinds of sports. With that information in mind, once it is known, you could target the recruitment for different sports towards the different communities that are likely to perform better in the respective sports.

    1. with 33 sports and a variety of weight classes for all strength and combat sports, I am sure a hugely diverse number of groups will be shown to have promise.

      Here is the issue though. Sports polygenic testing is still not that great. Certain genes like ACTN3 (I happen to be a heterozygote) do a good job of predicting stuff like explosiveness but we have barely scratched the surface. So genetic screenings won’t be that great. Also historical opportunity gaps are too big to compare groups toe to toe. So in the end, searching for individuals at school age is key.

      There are things like vertical jump that hardly improve with training and predict athletic performance well in explosive sports. Mandate all school kids do that and nurture natural talent in hardcore academies. The state and private donors have to invest. We need better sports selection infrastructure and models.

      Or only historically “martial” groups who feel compelled due to ancestral tradition to participate will really do so and that too also not to their complete ability.

      Sports just need more glory. The culture has to change. One way to change that faster is put more money in it. Take care of the athletes from a young age like the Chinese. Chinese literally look for stuff like limb length proportions in selection (eg. short femur long torso thick jointed kids for weightlifting selection or long tibia shirt torso and high vertical jump type medium to tallish height kids for sprinting).

      1. @thewarlocke
        Are there enough resources to undertake a broad recruitment from the school level? That is the major impedement which made me think about screening first. I realize that it cannot be done overnight but even the fact that genetic testing for sports is in it’s early stages provides yet another opportunity. It is risky but it might be worth it- allocate financial resources to screening research so that the results can allow authorities to make a more efficient selection plan. Some castes might be better at shooting, some at wrestling, some at boxing, some at track and field .etc.

    1. Those sound pretty recent and the map that I saw only covered northern south Asia (north India + Pakistan). I didn’t know that there were megalithic south Indian samples on hold as well.

    2. Just out of curiosity do you also have a list of known uniparentals from the megaliths?

  16. @Bhimrao

    “Agreed. Met (Jharkhand/Chattisgarh/Orissa tribal) archers from Tata’s archery center in Jamshedpur.”

    I think we are just scratching the surface. Its not really archery but contact sports/ athletics where they really excel.

    To me the saddest and the ironic part is how they are pushed into higher studies (because they have a higher chance of making it), even though they struggle routinely in IITs and IIMs. Its not just wastage of talent but channeling it in a completely wrong direction. One of my tribal friend is stuck in a mid level corporate job and just by playing part time made it to various state level relay competitions and such.

    1. Do you which lab has them and if they’re coming out soon? Also I can’t think of any ydnas that can securely be associated with AASI.

    1. I heard there’s a new paper on Khvalynsk.

      What else is coming out especially from the steppe and West/Central/South Asia?

  17. Are Jatts/Jats Scythian?

    I don’t think so. Here’s a strong reason why without even going into genetics.

    Scythians spoke an Iranic language and ALL Jatts/Jats today speak Indo-European languages – Punjabi, Haryanvi, Hindi etc. Jatts/Jats are a large agricultural caste who make up a significant proportion of the population of North India and Pakistan. If they were really descended from Scythians I find it hard to see how such a large group of people lost their Iranic language and culture and so completely became Indo-European. Its not like they were a super tiny elite amongst other populations.

    Another reason I find it suspect is that there is no mention of any Jatt/Jaat outside of the Indian subcontinent.

    More than Jaats/Jutts, I feel its Gujjars who might have a higher chance of descent from Scythians. Gujjars are found in Afghanistan and have left their cultural imprint on precisely those parts of the Indian subcontinent where Indo-Scythian (Shaka) kings ruled. ie. modern Indian state of Gujarat (look up Rudradaman) as well as Pakistani Punjab (there is a city called Gujarat there). This is by no means a flawless hypothesis BTW.

    1. scythians had some east asian ancestry. so unless highly diluted (which is possible) it isn’t, since aside from some pashtuns and ppl in trans-himalayah region e. Asian ancestry not present

    2. Neither group actually has Scythian ancestry (and if they do its minor). Are Gujjars native to Afghanistan or are they migrants from Punjab?

  18. Do we know if this Iranian Mesolithic related ancestry was also present in the Ganges Valley, Bengal and Brahmaputra Valley?

      1. Weren’t the Ganges Valley Mesolithic people super tall? I doubt they were East Asians.

        So you think all West Eurasian ancestry is recent in the Ganges and Brahmaputra Valleys ? Like Neolithic and after. Also if ydna H ends up being West Eurasian does that change they hypothesis.

    1. Can I suggest you to do a low budget research? Check the world HONEY in SA languages. In Serbian, it is MED and it was a root for Medicine, Medical, Medication, Medal, etc. Since pre-Aryan times was used for making alcoholic drink – MEDOVINA. It is interesting to see in which Indian (also European, Asian and African) states/languages is the same – MED, in which is different and why. Many conclusions can be made. You need only Google translate.

      1. similarly :- udaka= water in sanskrit, ==> vodka
        also dinara in saskrit= gold coin (of roman times)
        Honey=madhu

  19. RE: Dinar(id, a, etc)

    Well, it was rather an autistically ignorant than incompetent and unknowledgeable special guest star. I admire guys who can expertly write just about any topic to hook even the uncle Razib. I may do the same and write for BP detailed instructions for diy heart transplantations. Back to business as usual.

    Someone, somewhere here mentioned Dinar(ids). It is a Serbian word and the name of a mountain in the coastal region of Serbia. This rugged region is known for producing the tallest people in the world (according to Razib’s recent Wiki link) with long arms and legs and with very fighting character. Ideally, for example, for basketball what is visible in NBA where is currently a couple dozens of players originated from this region. In genetics is known as Dinaric I2 (for e.g. Novak Djokovic).

    Dinar is also a current Serbian monetary unit since Serbian pan-tsar Alexander Karanovic (the Great) introduced in his empire. It was also money of (P)Tolomey Lagic in Egypt. Gaius Julius Caesar took later Dinar (In Latin – denarius) as gold money. Spaniards even today say for any money – Denarius. Dinar, as a monetary unit is today used, apart from Serbia, in several Middle Eastern countries, including Algeria, Bahrain, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Libya, and Tunisia.

  20. Referring to couple points I skimmed yesterday… One is that ‘Iranian’ (??) language(s) were spoken in today’s Ukraine, Russia, central Asia, etc, but they were wiped out(!) We don’t know which ‘Iranian’ languages (maybe, it was a joke) and we also don’t know by which Language(s) they were wiped out. These ‘wiping’ language(s) was probably the language(s) of the future Aryans before they came to SA. I encourage the contributor to research further, we may finally discover the identity of these barbarian rapists.

    Someone mentioned Sakas and Massagetaes. Both are Serbian tribes (to remind rookie pundits that word ‘tribe’ originated from the name of the Serbian tribe – Tribals, which was accepted globally for the generic names of tribes). It can be interesting for some pundits that Massagetaes (from Danube) migrated in several directions. Greeks (who were not IE) named them Celts (i.e. whites). They are also known as Gets, Goths, Galls (in France), Heti and Celts. It seems, they came to SA from two directions. One was via Egypt and Israel where they had battles with Egyptians what was written in Pharaohs’ tombstones (I wrote about this before). In India, they are known as Jatts. Because, it is not surprising when some from time to time find similarities between Indian and Celtic custom or religious rituals. Celts and Jatts (and other) came from the same root, from Vinca.

  21. SA sports and crickets… I think I got few BP enemies after writing about cricket. I still think that abandoning the cricket is a precondition for SA’s mental and physical emancipation. Such colonial degenerative activity is probably appropriate as a relaxation activity for Chaplin after finishing his working day in Modern Times.
    I am trying to imagine Keanu Rives’s, John Wick’s Dallas Maverick’s Bob Maryanovic (and Razib’s 221 cm neighbour) playing the cricket, he could be a good spin bowler.

    Today is a St George Day, who is the patron of my family. Serbs are only Christian nation (including all Orthodox) where each family for thousands of years have a saint, family patron. It is continually inherited via male line. This is probably a relict from pagan days and concession from Christianity which replaced previous pagan family protector with new Christian saints. It was possible in the first days of Christianity because Serbs were the first nation to receive new religion (however, the Christianisation continued in the following 1000 years). Later, new convert nations did not get this concession. The best wishes for all pundits who celebrate today St. George or, at least, who remember and respect the original homeland of their ancestors.

  22. Today is a St George Day, who is the patron of my family. Serbs are only Christian nation (including all Orthodox) where each family for thousands of years have a saint, family patron. It is continually inherited via male line.
    This is similar to the pravara, which most brahmin males recite as a mark of their identity.

    1. Thanks for that, I did not know. It is interesting I may do some research. Btw, on that day the custom is that the all family heads who celebrate this day (optionally) go to church with bread and wine for a morning service. After that, family and friends come to visit his home for a big long lunch, drinks and talks. It is good opportunity to see various people and friends, at least once in a year. You return the visit to your guests when is their saint patron day (e.g. St Nicholas, St. John, etc). This is called ‘Slava’, a unique name which is protected by Unesco as non-material world heritage. Only Serbs have ‘Slava’ in the whole Christian world.

    2. Brownie, here we go another couple interesting details for you, related to the St George’s Day. Saint George was a soldier, member of the Praetorian Guard for Roman emperor Diocletian, who was sentenced to death for refusing to recant his Christian faith. He became one of the most venerated saints and megalomartyrs in Christianity, and he has been especially venerated as a military saint since the Crusades.

      In hagiography, as one of the Fourteen Holy Helpers and one of the most prominent military saints, he is immortalised in the legend of Saint George and the Dragon. His memorial, Saint George’s Day, is traditionally celebrated on the 6 May in Julian calendar by the Eastern Orthodox Church.

      England, Ethiopia, Georgia, and the Autonomous Communities of Catalonia and Aragon in Spain, and several other nation states, cities, universities, professions and organisations all claim George as their patron.

      Diocletian was a Serbian Roman Emperor who lived his whole life in a Roman co-capital city of Sirmium, 40 km from Belgrade. He prosecuted Christians and seized their properties. He even prosecuted his own wife, Alexandra, who also converted to Christianity. After that, he retired and spent the rest of his life doing gardening. Two co-Emperors were appointed to replace him, both Serbs – Constantine the Great and Licinius. They issued the Edict of Milan and, later on, legalised the Christianity. However, they also went to war where Licinius got killed. From his line originated the Serbian medieval dynasty when Serbia was the strongest kingdom in Europe.

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