0 0 votes
Article Rating
37 Comments
Oldest
Newest Most Voted
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
lavishoppean
lavishoppean
7 months ago

There’s something comically tragic about seeing the anti-immigration border hawk part of twitter froth at the mount in support of Israel. These people seem to be under the impression that this is some biblical conflict that started thousands of years ago. When its a conflict that started in the early 20th century of over the mass immigration of Eastern European Jews into Mandatory Palestine.

mrx
mrx
7 months ago
Reply to  lavishoppean

It’s both a religious and ethnic conflict tbh.

Sumit
Sumit
7 months ago
Reply to  lavishoppean

Present day Israeli Jews are >50% Mizrahi (so from other Mid-East countries), European origin Jews are the minority, so there is a bit of a population exchange type thing going on with Islamic countries in the Mid-East. Not just European settler colonialism as many keep pointing out.

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
6 months ago
Reply to  Sumit

Doesn’t matter Ashkenazi or Mizrahi. They are still not native to that particular region (Palestine). Also, Israel was founded by European Jews and continues because of European and American support. Remove that support and I doubt the settler state can survive for long. Their acceptance amongst their neighbours is almost non existent even after 75 years.

Zimbabar
Zimbabar
6 months ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

Considering they have nukes, the entire Muslim world’s survival hinges on the “settler state”‘s survival

BarindMan
BarindMan
6 months ago
Reply to  lavishoppean

Most people in Israel are Mizrahi Jews who are non European and native to the region or were expelled from their nations and had no other place to go.

Palestine started the fight tbh the Nakba only happened because they tried to defeat Israel in 1948. They and like 5 other Arab nations got crushed (multiple times) and were expelled. They’re lucky Israel has some restraint lol.

The defeated don’t get to make demands.

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
6 months ago
Reply to  BarindMan

1) Mizrahi Jews are not native to Palestine. A Jew from Yemen is Yemeni, a Jew from Morroco is Morrocon/Sephardic, a Jew from Iran is Iranian. There is no difference between this group and Ashkenazi from Europe. Infact most in this group are first gen migrants, not even second gen like Ashkenazis.

The native Jewish population was never over 5% in Palestine according to any Ottoman census.

2) If the argument has devolved to “defeated people can’t make demands”, remember that what is won in war can be lost in war. History has not been halted, it continues and Israel is still has no acceptance in the neighborhood even after 75 years. Infact it has less worldwide acceptance now than it did before. Israel needs to win every one, it’s enemies just need to win once.
Then perhaps a new Israel can be created in countries that actually want them. I heard there is lot of land in South Dakota or even Alaska. Or perhaps somewhere in India as many Indians love Israel now.

Book of Daniel
Book of Daniel
6 months ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

what is won in war can be lost in war’

Copium…

‘Israel … need to win once’

Nuked Tehran?

History has not been halted…’

Arab oil will run out, peninsula will go back to being a useless desert and Persian gulf will be back to being a lake. Climate change will depopulate regional Arab countries. Nile will be dammed by Ethiopia and Euphrates will go dry.

Book of Daniel
Book of Daniel
6 months ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

Once dust settles, Israel should take the fight to Iran proper. Mullahs and supporters alike in rallies celebrating terrorists targeting music festivals deserve to be sent to heaven.

BarindMan
BarindMan
6 months ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

Palestinean Muslims aren’t that native to Palestine either, they are heavily mixed with Egyptian and Arabian (Gulf) elements. It’s the Levantine Christians that have the continuity. Plus, the origins of the Ashkenazis are undoubtably Canaanite in origin and the Mizrahis themselves are extremely close to the ancient Canaanites.

Maybe not in recent times but the Mizrahis already got kicked out and dispossesed by the Arabs. The Arabs should have thought about that before kicking em out.

Well yes. The Israelis are flattening the shit out of Palis lol. Palestine and the Arabs should not have tried to wipe out Israel if they wanted to live peacefully. They did so MULTIPLE times, in 1948, in the 1960s and etc. They lost and now Israel probably has a nuke. Sucks lol

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
6 months ago
Reply to  BarindMan

//Palestinean Muslims aren’t that native to Palestine either//

Palestinian Christians are closest to Ancient Israelites/Canaanites followed closely by Palestinian Muslims. Only Iraqi/Kurdish & Syrian Jews fall in the same category of closeness. All other “Mizrahi” Jews may have some admixture but are bordering on different ethnicity. And Ashkenazis are not even native to that area, they are Italian.

https://twitter.com/MiroCyo/status/1712260642089160765/photo/1

https://twitter.com/PhilistiaForeva/status/1713570765365244259/photo/3

//They lost and now Israel probably has a nuke. Sucks lol/

Oh god, what will everyone do now! (wink wink)

Sumit
Sumit
6 months ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

Seems they all have some partial ancient ancestry.

I think this stuff of who is native is a bit of a distraction. Human history involves migration and most of us don’t live on our native land whether it is at a national level or subnational. Turtle island residents especially hypocritical in this regard.

Without doing abhorrent mass ethnic cleansing or genocide neither group is going to be leaving the region.

Ideally the focus would be on human flourishing and religious freedom for both parties.

For the land stuff wars happen land changes hands etc.

I don’t think either Israel (via US backing) or the Palestinian cause (via special entities like UNRWA or definitions of refugee etc) should get special global treatment.

brown
brown
6 months ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

hope one day kashmiri pandits will have a home in srinagar etc and hindu sindhis will be allowed to go back to their homes in sind.

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
6 months ago
Reply to  brown

@brown

Kashmir is with India, India is free to repatriate Pandits back to Kashmir but since this hasnt happened yet, it seems the Pandits don’t want to return.

When you look at the facts, both the Pandits and Sindhi Hindus fled their ancestral homeland without any facing any actual violence. Since you have compared them to the Palestinian situation (when no real comparison exists), perhaps look at the number of people killed by Israel in Palestine and compare before you make claims of forcible ethnic cleansing. I have said this before and say it again, it seems like Muslims don’t leave their ancestral homeland that easily whereas Hindus seem to do.

I for one would be completely open for Sindhi Hindus to return to their homeland, however something tells me India would not accept the same for Punjabi and Urdu Speaking Muhajirs, so why bring up list of things that will never happen? Both sets of groups are completely fine with where they are so its a useless point.

Sumit
Sumit
6 months ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

Will if you really want to make analogies to India-Pakistan (which I don’t think is comprable tbh)

The Urdu Muhajirs and Pakistani movement people were mostly non-Punjabi Muslim Zionist elite non-native to Pakistan who were responsible for violent displacement and massacres in Punjab.

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
6 months ago
Reply to  Sumit

//The Urdu Muhajirs and Pakistani movement people were mostly non-Punjabi Muslim Zionist elite non-native to Pakistan who were responsible for violent displacement and massacres in Punjab.//

Punjabis killed Punjabis in 1947. What do Urdu Speaking Muhajirs have to do with that? If anything, wide availability of weapons, WW2 trained returning soldiers, royal screw up of the Radcliffe line and its late announcement, refusal of the Brits to ensure law and order etc etc are the cause of violence.

There is no parallel to Israel-Palestine, neither am I drawing one.

BarindMan
BarindMan
6 months ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

The Mizrahis are actually very close to the ancient Canaanites and the Ashkenazis are verifiably of Canaanite origin albeit mixed with heavy North Euro but regardless of all of this, they all belong there because that is their origin. The Arabs kicked them out anyways so they should have thought about that.

Anyways, Palestine and the Arabs have tried wiping out Israel many times and have failed. It’s actually remarkable that Israel has let them continue with their actions for so long. They’ve excercised quite a lot of restraint while dealing with literal militants.

They should have thought about that before trying to wipe em out, sucks.

DaThang
DaThang
7 months ago

“These Khatris often have less Steppe than their Brahmin neighbors but they have more Indus Valley Civilization type ancestry”

Target: Brahmin_Punjab
Distance: 2.4059% / 0.02405934
51.8Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA2
24.6Russia_MLBA_Sintashta
12.4Paniya
11.2Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA1

Target: Arora
Distance: 2.1092% / 0.02109200
37.6Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA2
26.6Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA1
23.4Russia_MLBA_Sintashta
12.4Paniya

Target: Khatri
Distance: 1.6228% / 0.01622837
36.0Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA2
27.8Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA1
23.6Russia_MLBA_Sintashta
12.6Paniya

Target: Brahmin_Punjab
Distance: 2.3119% / 0.02311946
46.6Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA2
21.8Russia_MLBA_Sintashta
15.0Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA1
13.8Paniya
2.8Russia_Tyumen_HG

Target: Arora
Distance: 2.0951% / 0.02095100
35.4Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA2
28.2Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA1
22.2Russia_MLBA_Sintashta
13.0Paniya
1.2Russia_Tyumen_HG

Target: Khatri
Distance: 1.5543% / 0.01554275
31.8Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA2
30.8Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA1
21.6Russia_MLBA_Sintashta
13.8Paniya
2.0Russia_Tyumen_HG

Target: Brahmin_Punjab
Distance: 2.3118% / 0.02311790
47.4Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA2
21.8Russia_MLBA_Sintashta
14.6Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA1
13.4Paniya
2.8Russia_Tyumen_HG
0.0Turkmenistan_Gonur_BA_1

Target: Arora
Distance: 1.8602% / 0.01860239
39.8Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA2
26.8Turkmenistan_Gonur_BA_1
19.6Russia_MLBA_Sintashta
12.2Paniya
1.6Russia_Tyumen_HG
0.0Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA1

Target: Khatri
Distance: 1.4476% / 0.01447597
39.6Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA2
27.0Turkmenistan_Gonur_BA_1
19.6Russia_MLBA_Sintashta
11.6Paniya
2.2Russia_Tyumen_HG
0.0Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA1

They look pretty similar, the only difference I see is preference for Shahr BA1 vs BMAC ancestry. Khatris prefer more exotic IVCp choices when the selection is only limited to IVCp and prefer more ancestry from non-IVC BMAC sources when the selection is expanded to the latter.

And I don’t think it is because of Sintashta vs Kangju stuff either since in this schema there isn’t a Brahmin vs Khatri/Aror dichotomy in terms of Sintashta vs Kangju ancestry because in those terms, Arora are more like Brahmins than like Khatris. But the IVCp dichotomy continues with Aroras and Khatris being more like each other than like Brahmins.

Target: Brahmin_Punjab
Distance: 2.2533% / 0.02253346
61.4Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA2
17.6Kazakhstan_Kangju.SG
13.2Russia_MLBA_Sintashta
6.6Paniya
1.2Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA1

Target: Arora
Distance: 1.9437% / 0.01943728
47.0Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA2
16.8Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA1
16.8Kazakhstan_Kangju.SG
12.6Russia_MLBA_Sintashta
6.8Paniya

Target: Khatri
Distance: 1.2832% / 0.01283193
46.8Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA2
20.6Kazakhstan_Kangju.SG
16.2Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA1
10.4Russia_MLBA_Sintashta
6.0Paniya

mrx
mrx
7 months ago

I wonder what these rayta Hindutvavadis who claim that caste must inevitably fall as a result of modernization and urbanization make of the Brahmins and Jatts in the US (where there are no caste reservations to blame for the perpetuation of such groupings as such morons are always inclined to pin things on) proudly flaunting their caste lineage and traditions as “ethnic” traditions and identity. Seems to me that caste is more durable and viable in modern capitalist society that these raytas make it out to be.

Narasingha Deva
Narasingha Deva
7 months ago
Reply to  mrx

Don’t US Indians do a lot of intercaste marriage. Razib had written about it a few times during the US caste controversy, I remember

mrx
mrx
7 months ago

They do, except for trad Brahmins and some feudal Shudras.

indusriver
7 months ago
Reply to  mrx

this is the sort of faux pattern smart people are vulnerable to, caste is on its way out

mrx
mrx
7 months ago
Reply to  indusriver

Maybe. At some point industrialization requires structural elimination of feudal classes, trad retards will either get with the times or die.

Franklin
Franklin
7 months ago

Questions to knowledgeable visitors of the Brownpundits concerning the archaeogenetics of South Asia.

Q. Is it true that an ANE rich population lived in the periphery of the northwest part of South Asia?

Q. Did ASI form after 1000 BCE? If not so, then when?

Q. Is it true that upper caste north Indians without AASI would cluster closer to Tajiks, while out of Steppe ancestry, they would cluster closer to middle caste South Indians?

Q. The AASI ancestry is quite dominant in India and can be found more than 50% in certain castes in northern India. How is it possible that a hunter gatherer population can contribute this much, considering that hunter gatherers typically have low population and farmers who can easily sustain huge population displace them, whose example is Europe where farmers displaced the WHGs, as a result of which the WHG ancestry is 25% at max in Europe?

Q. What connection did Poltavka culture with the proto Indo Iranians and the Abashevo culture? Not sure, but with Abashevo culture, it led to formation of the Sintashta culture?

Q. Some OIT proponents have come up with a theory that the Steppe ancestry in modern Indians is primarily from proto Saka population, not from the Andronovo/Sintashta, who did arrive but whose contribution was minimal. To support their point, they say the admixture date in most upper caste north Indians is post 1000 BCE, which is many hundred centuries after the arrival of Steppe pastoralists. What’s the reason behind the admixture date after 1000 BCE? Some say it’s because if an population with high Steppe ancestry admix with a low Steppe population, the admixture date would be recent one, even if both populations received this ancestry long ago.

Last edited 7 months ago by Franklin
Bhumiputra
Bhumiputra
7 months ago

razib,
FYI for last few weeks, the latest post I saw was open threads from 8/11. I see another user has complained as well.

Bhumiputra
Bhumiputra
7 months ago

With reference to caste politics and census, I think OBCs are walking in to a trap. Karti and pappu are already talking about the caste census enumerating land and wealth ownership. Guess who owns ~90% of agricultural land. If INC manages to form a government then caste census will be old wine (ranganath commission report on minorities) in new bottle. Congress will pitch this land angle to UCs to garner covert support for 2024. UC and OBCs will be the monkeys losing the butter to clever minority cat 🤦‍♂️.
Hopefully modi exploits this angle.

BarindMan
BarindMan
7 months ago

So from my spreadsheet of 800 Bangladeshi results, around 60% of them are Sylheti. For fuck’s sake lol

BarindMan
BarindMan
7 months ago

To Razib,

So another thing is that people in Khulna still have more Asian ancestry than people on the other side of the BD/India border. I think you replied to my comment on some AMA you did a month or two ago but I’ve seen some more results from Howrah and Hoogly in West Bengal, India and they scored like 7-8% Asian total while people in Khulna are still getting like 10% on average.

indusriver
7 months ago

hi guys

i used to lurk on this site for a while a few years back. recently got back into it. i have a question, why are people so concerned over prehistoric people? my understanding was that the original Indologists and subsequently nazis were mostly interested in the vedic people. what was the genetic composition of the vedic people?

thanks

DaThang
DaThang
6 months ago
Reply to  indusriver

I can’t speak for others but for me, prehistoric people are more fundamental and it is important to understand the fundamentals to get the whole picture.
As for Vedic people, there are Vedic era samples from Swat, you can look at them in global25 and qpadm. Most of them are late Vedic era and a couple of them might be pre-1000 BC: I8193 and I8194.

Last edited 6 months ago by DaThang
indusriver
6 months ago
Reply to  DaThang

i mean, thats expected from someone into genetics more so than history but assuming youre more interested in heritage than what your ancestors looked like, this comes at the peril of not asking the important questions.

note how quietly the meaning of “aryan” has been taken over by “steppe”, all because geneticists have a field bias and do not ever undertake historical interpretation, maybe because theyre unable to, but theyre at the forefront of this thing.

Neil
Neil
6 months ago

Is India, or South Asia in general, ever going to be able to get manufacturing right? A couple high profile disasters have tarnished the reputation of the Indian pharmaceutical industry.

-Ranbaxy in 2004-2005 was found to have fabricated drug testing reports by an internal whistleblower, Dinesh Thakur. A multi-year saga of quality issues ensued.

The Truth Pill – Wikipedia

-Global Pharma Healthcare manufactured artificial tears that became contaminated with Psuedomonas bacteria, causing dozens of infections, 8 patients going blind, and 4 individuals dying.

Recalled eyedrops now linked to four deaths, CDC reports (nbcnews.com)

indusriver
6 months ago

does that serbian weirdo still post these days

indusriver
indusriver
6 months ago

can i make a post here? (if so how?)

indusriver
indusriver
6 months ago

how do we know that the iran_n (HG?) component in india is from the ivc and not a pre-existing widespread population spanning the subcontinent, before the ivc?

this is the basis of pakistani indus nationalism as well

DaThang
DaThang
6 months ago
Reply to  indusriver

The IVC population itself is supposed to be descended from pre-IVC locals. So to tell whether it is from the IVC or non-IVC people who are potentially genetically indistinguishable from the IVC, identity by descent/identity by parts would be needed and for that both IVC and non-IVC samples are needed. Currently there is one sample from the main IVC zone and with a low SNP count as well so it can’t be done now.

indusriver
indusriver
6 months ago
Reply to  DaThang

narasimhan did say that he proved it by showing the late formation of the ASI. was his proof conclusive? (by using DATES on south tribals and showing that the juang had input from pure aasi)

dont we have neolithic samples from the south/deccan?

Brown Pundits