The Sintashta were swarthy

One of the things that I’ve always been curious about is why some Indian populations are not fairer in complexion if they had so much steppe. The logic here is that the “most steppe population” are peoples such as the Lithuanians, and these are very fair-skinned groups. If, for example, North Indian Brahmins were ~30% steppe, and these steppe people looked like Lithuanians, wouldn’t we see more blondes in northern India?

I’ve posted on this before, but after today’s conversation with Vagheesh, I checked the data on his Sintashta samples on the Hiris-Plex pigmentation panel. Pigmentation prediction in ancient populations are pretty sketchy…but the Sintashta are actually not that different from many modern Northeast Europeans.

Spot-checking some major loci where Europeans are very distinct,  such as KITLG, OCA2-HERC2, and SLC45A2, it is clear to me that the Sintashta were much more darkly complected than modern Northern Europeans.

To give a concrete example, rs16891982 in SLC45A2 is at 2% minor allele frequency in British 1000 Genomes samples (3% in Tuscans, 18% in Spaniards). The minor allele frequency is 12.5% in 64 Sintashta chromosomes.

The derived SNP associated with blonde hair in Northern Europeans, and found at about 20% frequency in those populations, was found in none of the 32 calls where that position was returned.

I doubt the Sintashta were very dark. Rather, their pigmentation was probably more in the range of Southern Europeans like Sardinians if I had to bet.

(one of the implications here is that the results which indicate strong selection for lighter complexion in Northern Europeans into historical times are probably detecting something real)

Sintashta MLBA on HirisPlex
CHRSNPA1A2MAFNCHROBS
5rs16891982230.12564
5rs28777210.312532
6rs12203592420.0344858
6rs4959270120.434846
9rs6831202
9rs10756819310.54
11rs1042602120.181844
11rs1393350130.0740754
12rs1282125624032
14rs12896399430.220
14rs2402130310.285742
14rs17128291310.217446
15rs154539741NA0
15rs180041404040
15rs1800407420.0434846
15rs12441727130.0909122
15rs147060843012
15rs1129038420.363622
15rs12913832130.428642
15rs2238289310.444454
15rs1667394240.430
15rs142665431024
16rs180500543032
16rs180500602048
16rs222847913026
16rs11547464130.0294168
16rs111040004062
16rs1805008420.0370454
16rs88547913048
16rs180500903062
20rs611947102046
20rs2378249310.105338
2+

104 Replies to “The Sintashta were swarthy”

  1. Interesting thank you. I’ve always wondered about this as well. And I just listened to your podcast with vagheesh it was a wonderful listen. I also caught the part where he said that the incoming steppe population into NW South Asia may not have looked that different pigmentation wise from the people they encountered there. Which is a very interesting thought and explains why, in my view, a steppe migration makes way more sense than a steppe invasion. In either case thanks for the podcast again much appreciated. Nice to hear two brown guys talk about this stuff without all the usual uncle buffoonery.

    7+
    1. No question it was an invasion, and that Aryans were white-skinned. Razib’s own calculation above seems to imply they were significantly lighter than the average Spaniard, who are significantly lighter than the most fair-skinned Indians.

      Agreed they weren’t blonde hair blue eyed nordics, but I don’t know of anyone who makes the claim they were (besides 20th century Europeans maybe).

      2+
      1. I am fairly certain that Spaniards and Italians have a 50% A2 frequency for light skin. This reaches something like 90%+ in Northern Europe and apparently the MLBA values were 50% to 60%. They would have probably been closer to modern day Italians than to modern day Swedes in terms of complexion, and yes that is lighter than the IVC population (which may or may not have had plenty of A5 but certainly had no A2). However, it wouldn’t have been like a modern south Asian vs modern Scandinavian level of a difference. Probably more like a modern Balochi/Gujarati vs modern Italian/Iberian level of a difference in skin colour (which is non-trivial).

        2+
      2. Nope, its already confirmed it was not an invasion at all. And the steppe people were not europeans. Yamnaya were dark skinned, only after killing eastern european men and mixing with their women did some steppe descendants become lighter skinned. But those that came to india would have been similar in skin color to the harappans

        1+
        1. Actually, since Yamnaya men (R1b) were largely replaced by R1a men in Eastern Europe (Corded Ware) and the Eurasian steppe, it’s more like the other way sround.

          0
    1. Which kind of social organisation Aryans found in SA? There was no India. Did they need to invade anything or they just walked in without any resistance? Aryans created several kingdoms (anyone knows their names?). Upon arrival they became the ruling class. Who were the brothers in Mahabharata? Aryans? It seems none knows the origin of cow worshipping (or he is just modest and wants to keep for himself).

      0
      1. @Milan: The Mahabharata is a relatively recent thing. Oldest parts could be estimated to be maybe from 900 BC while changes would have been made all the way till nearly 400 AD however most of it would have been solidified by something like 400 BC to 200 BC.

        0
        1. DaThang, I did not mean when the book was published, I thought when was the battle and who were involved. The most exposed OIT scholars state that it was about 5000 BC or even eaarlier. They calculated the exact year of the battle. This is curenntly one of the taboo topics – Aryans in Mahabharata. However, we have two great local BP resources, prominent pundits, Anan and Arjun, who at the moment work on Mahabharata and we expect that they explain where the similarities with Iliad come from.

          0
  2. (one of the implications here is that the results which indicate strong selection for lighter complexion in Northern Europeans into historical times are probably detecting something real)

    Naive question: wasn’t that conclusion anyway forced by the fact that blue eyes of erstwhile hunter gatherers survived but not their dark skins?

    0
  3. @Indthings, quite a few people arguably but it’s the internet after all where you can find everything. Anyway, it’s probably better to think in ranges since frequencies seem to differ a decent amount depending on sample and I wonder if we have nationally representative samples in general. Looking at ALFRED for the cited Leu374Phe/SLC45A2 in particular, Sintashta looks more comparable to the more southern half of Europe and the most northern parts of the Caucasus than northernmost Europe in contemporary terms.

    0
  4. Razib’s own calculation above seems to imply they were significantly lighter than the average Spaniard, who are significantly lighter than the most fair-skinned Indians.

    i have to run hirisplex, but think they probably were colored like sardinians.

    0
    1. Hello Razib,

      I’m always very impressed with your content. Anyways, I noticed that you made a comparison with the Sardians. I’m sure that you’re very familiar that the Neolithic Farmers who first entered Europe about 11,000 years ago from modern-day NW Anatolia were most similar to modern-day Sardinians.

      https://indo-european.eu/2018/09/modern-sardinians-show-elevated-neolithic-farmer-ancestry-shared-with-basques/

      I’m very surprised that even the Yamnaya would have also looked like the Neolithic Farmers. It seems to me that the Yamanaya could have been direct descendants of the Neolithic Farmers from 11,000 years ago, but we know that they also had some EE Hunters & Gatherer genes, which may have contributed to their depigmentation. I don’t know.

      Anyways, one of the most unbelievable facts that I have trouble reconciling with data is that:

      1. According to this: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Distribution-of-the-Yamnaya-genetic-component-in-the-populations-of-Europe-data-taken_fig2_318751121 People who were not even Indo-Europeans (namely the Lapp and the Finnish) have the highest components of Yamnaya. Moreover…
      2. The Proto-Germanic Urheimat was in Denmark, Southern Sweden, and Southern Norway. You would think that these people would speak the most conserved dialect(s) of PIE. Instead, the Germanic subranch of the IE languages are the “worst” example of the IE languages: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_substrate_hypothesis
      3. Finally, according to the link below, even the Basque have a lot of Yamnaya genes. Moreso than the Bulgarians, who were once Iranian speakers (when they were ruled by the Iranians around 500 BC), who later spoke a Latin language during the Roman Empire such as Dacian, and then who spoke a Slavic language around 400 AD. Also, they’ve always had big populations of Goths there (the Battle of Adrianople involved a huge Gothic refugee population in modern-day Bulgaria) and even Scythians.

      https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Kristian_Kristiansen2/publication/318751121/figure/fig2/AS:[email protected]/Distribution-of-the-Yamnaya-genetic-component-in-the-populations-of-Europe-data-taken.png

      So I’m curious myself about how people became depigmented, the color of the Yamnaya, the Neolithic Farmers (they may have had many colors given that their migration lasted 5,000 years from what I understand), and what explains why people with very high Yamnaya ancestry speak the “worst” Yamnaya language, and why people with lots of Yamnya genes (i.e. the Eskaru) don’t even speak a Yamnaya language.

      0
  5. Naive question: wasn’t that conclusion anyway forced by the fact that blue eyes of erstwhile hunter gatherers survived but not their dark skins?

    i’m talking about selection AFTER the bronze age. the dark-blue eye ppl were way before that in 99% of the case

    2+
  6. Razib

    Ancient DNA provides new insights into the history of south Siberian Kurgan people
    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00439-009-0683-0

    “Finally, our data indicate that at the Bronze and Iron Age timeframe, south Siberians were blue (or green)-eyed, fair-skinned and light-haired people”

    I asked David to check the same phenotype SNPs tested in that 2009 study in the Sintashta-Andronovo samples from Narasimhan 2018.

    Guest post: we owe many of our genetic traits to ancient steppe pastoralists, but…
    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/06/guest-post-we-owe-many-of-our-genetic.html

    David got the same results. Majority of SIntashta-Andronovo people had blue eyes and “light hair” (brown or blonde).

    0
  7. Ok, I’m looking at the results you posted for Sintashta.

    rs16891982 MAF 0.125

    The minor allele (MAF) in this case is the ancestral allele which produces darker skin. Sintashta’s frequenciy of 0.125 not very different from modern Europeans. On the other hand, most Yamnaya & Neolithic farmers had the “dark skin” allele in this allele.

    The difference in allele frequency in this SNP between Sintashta & earlier Europeans mean Sintashat carried the same effects of the post-Neolithic skin-lightening selection modern Europeans do.

    rs12913832 0.4286
    This is a surprise. This indicates 60-70% Sinatashta had brown eyes. Results I’ve seen so far indicate. Sintashta & Andronovo were mostly blonde and blue eyed.

    It wouldn’t surprise me SIntashta/Andronovo were not very blonde. But it would surprise me if they were “swarthy”=comparable to Middle Easterners or the darkest southern Europeans (Sardinians).

    The allele frequencies for Sintashta you post here don’t indicate Sintashta was swarthy. It still supports the idea they were “white.” in that they could fit with the majority of modern Europeans in terms of pigmentation.

    This shouldn’t be surprising to anyone because we know Sintashta genetically were ‘modern Europeans’ (Kurgan plus farmer).

    2+
  8. why do you keep posting that 2009 paper as if i don’t know it? i blogged it when it came out. as you know, i am honestly starting to wonder if there as contamination as those individuals are suspiciously like modern northern europeans (a lot of older non-array based ‘ancient DNA’ papers in hindsight look like author contamination when i read their abstracts, especially ones in plos one).

    Sintashta’s frequenciy of 0.125 not very different from modern Europeans.

    yes, it’s very different. in the thousand genomes populations it’s at 2 in the NW european populations % (finns 4%, though finns have siberian that inflates ancestray at 45 and 24a5).

    heterozygotes for slc45a2 are way more likely to have olive skin. many fold more olive ppl likely among sintashta.

    The allele frequencies for Sintashta you post here don’t indicate Sintashta was swarthy. It still supports the idea they were “white.” in that they could fit with the majority of modern Europeans in terms of pigmentation.

    do the hirisplex calcs yourself. you seem frankly obsessed with proving that these people were “white” and just like northern europeans. white people can be swarthy. why the fuck do you think there are sayings like “wogs start at calais.”

    basically, my belief now is to that you won’t budge from your position and will figure out a way to engage in word-play so that all early indo-europeans were “white” however you “define” “them”.

    there is a fair amount of selection evidence that europeans were depigmenting into the historical period. this is not concordant with the idea that the architecture was already there 4,000 years ago.

    5+
  9. S.A.M. to be clear, i don’t think you are arguing in good faith. run the hirisplex on the snps yourself. i just don’t have the time right now (format conversion is a bitch). you seem to be a manipulator of language (e.g., whites can’t be swarthy, “modern europeans”). but your sophistry will run into limits on numbers.

    1+
  10. My understanding is that melanin levels are strongly correlated with UV radiation in the ancestral environment (it’s a balance between protecting you from sunburn and allowing enough production of vitamin D). Adaptation is fairly fast on that trait; individuals without access to vitamin D supplements and sunblock suffer the effects of non-optimum melanin fairly severely (rickets or chronic sunburn, depending). Because that trait selects quickly, it may not be a great idea to use it for tracking lineages.

    https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/The-evolution-of-human-skin-coloration.-Jablonski-Chaplin/011d4ccb74f32f597df54ac8037a7903bd95038b

    1+
  11. An olive skinned Arya migrating from central asia can still call him self ‘fair skinned’ and ‘pale’ compared to a ‘black’ and ‘dark’ skinned Dasa on the more AASI side of the IVC cline.

    We have multiple quotes from the Rig Veda suggesting that.

    Vagheesh comments about darker skin colour and allele frequencies being correlated with AASI DNA.

    Has anyone actually done a study looking at the correlation between skin colour and ASI/ANI DNA amongst South Asians?

    Can we infer if a historical figure described as black or crow coloured in ancient literature was more ASI or ANI?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalashoka

    Black/Crow coloured ruler in ancient Bihar.

    0
  12. I am a British-Bangladeshi from Sylhet. I have used the GEDmatch calculators and get a variety of results. One thing seems to be common is Punjabi and Gujarati admixture more often than Bengali. Some present Tajik, Uzbek, and Balochi admixture as their replacement. I do also get Sintashta, Siberian, and NE Euro/Baltic on some calculators. Some results provide UP or Rajasthani Brahmins, others Kshatriya or Vaisya. I am sure these calculators may be updated due to recent developments in this area.

    In regards to fair skin and coloured eyes some of my extended family have retained this to some extent. Couple of my mother’s siblings have blue and green eyes. My grandmother was fair with hazel greyish eyes. The norm seems to be hazel and grey eyes for her paternal cousins and their offsprings. Their “whiteness” is similar to Iranians or Turks.

    My father’s extended family varies and he has first cousins’ who are white/fair, hazel eyes, but have more of a “Turkic” appearance. Paternal side is also taller in height (I am 185cm).

    Some of my relatives do have East Asian phenotypes and that is verifiably by a ~ 15% admixture from East/Southeast Asia.

    Overall skin tones vary from medium brown, olive, to fair/white as do eye colour.

    My Y-DNA is L-M357 or L1a2 and mtDNA is M35b.

    0
        1. Shahel

          I don’t know enough about the other calculators bar harappa.

          ‘Caucasian hunter gatherer’ has been noted by some studies to be common ancestor of both the Aryans and Iranian farmer related ancestry. So I would not take that as evidence of recent middle eastern muslim ancestry. All south asians will have that in significant amounts.

          The good thing about harappa is that we have huge reference datasets to compare to.

          It is quite clear from your harappa results, that if there was any historic middle eastern muslim ancestry it has been greatly diluted, to the point where it is not obviously apparent.

          Not sure if anyone here more familiar with the other calculators can help you. You could try the anthrogenica forum, theres a lot of Bengali genetics experts there.

          0
          1. Thanks Karan.

            Speaking to various elder family members I think the general consensus is that our ancestors were Hindu converts to Islam not so long ago as far as history is concerned. Some have even mentioned still having distant Hindu relatives in Assam.

            I am on Anthrogenica but unfortunately I still don’t have the privilege to add comments or posts. I’ve been following posts for Y group L and in particular L-M357, which is primarily a forum run by Jatts. This haplogroup seems uncommon for Bengalis in the greater scheme of Y haplogroups in comparison to R and H. L-M357 is common amongst Pakistanis and Afghans of various ethnicities including Balochis, Pashtuns and Kalash. It’s even found as far as Chechnya. There’s also ancient DNA that harbour L in particular L1a from South Caucasus. 2 samples also have been found at the BMAC and another in Hungary belonging to an elite Hun.

            There’s sections on Wikipedia that may shed light on ancient DNA https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_L-M20

            I have read on GEDmatch that if one has high “Balochi/Gedrosia” admixture such as shown on Harappa then the Gedrosia calculator are ideal. The other calculators I’ve used provide closer population mixture for 2, 3 or 4 populations.

            On Gedrosia K3 it zeros down and others are less than @2.00.

            Good to hear your thoughts or anybody else on here who has awareness of this haplogroup.

            Thanks

            0
      1. From my research we became Muslims about 200 years ago.

        My paternal great grandfather x4 who was alive in the 18th century was a Hindu as his name had the Mohan prefix. His son must have converted as he had the Sheikh prefix.

        Not sure about my mother’s side as I’ve only gone back to great grandparents x2 and they were already Muslims.

        My paternal grandparents are related and share the same paternal great grandfather.

        My maternal grandparents are first cousins.

        I’ve read a paper on the Jats and I share the same Y haplogroup https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5611447/

        I am coming to the conclusion that we may have lived in the IVC and come from some Neolithic or Bronze Age stock. Maternal line may have been more recent.

        0
  13. @Razib,
    “heterozygotes for slc45a2 are way more likely to have olive skin. many fold more olive ppl likely among sintashta.”

    I’m heterozygote for this SNP. I have white skin. This SNP has an affect on skin color but probably not a huge one. Most Sintashta were homogeneous for the “light skin” version.

    0
  14. I know this is out of topic and all. But i just want to know where pashtuns cluster(not as whole necessarily only, but each groups too). There was this article in brown pundits saying that AVG afg pashtuns are almost twice as close to west iranians as whole( 60% iranian and rest gujrarati brahmin) than to gujarat brahmins.

    Davidskis G25 nmonte runner(when i ran it) said that even the most west asian shifted pashtun sample is slightly closer to gujarati avg than to avg iranians(lurs arent even included, likely will be almost as twice close to gujarati brahmins than them).

    Then there is Dilawer khan(he uses qAdmn and D-stats) who says that his SAPDA “likely”(he isnt too sure, but states it makes sense) project will show pashtuns from south waziristan all the way to farah will be kind of slightly closer to kurds and iranians than to all NW south asians.And says that although G25 isnt really bad at all, it like all gedmatch calcs dont show the true shared ancestry between groups(although do give an insitght of clustering).

    Im not sure what razib khan thinks(he’s likely the one behind this pca-plot: https://www.brownpundits.com/2018/12/21/pathans-between-hind-and-iran/).

    Hearing all these different opinions/analyses, im not sure which ones i should listen to.

    So i kind of wanted to hear from opinions hear.

    0
    1. jama0112,

      There are three clusters of Pashtun people:

      Southwestern Pashtuns (Kandahar, Helmand, and Uruzghan in Afghanistan… and the Pashtun inhabitants of Balochistan in Pakistan). Moderately closer to even western Iranians than any West Eurasian-type Indians, significantly closer to Khorasani Iranians than any West Eurasian-type Indians. Only 25% Sintastha-related…. but lots of BMAC-related ancestry, with additional isolation-by-distance related gene-flow coming from across the Iranian plateau. Not much AASI (like 4%-5%… same as eastern Iranians, and not much higher than the 3% seen in western Iran).

      Central Pashtuns (Khost, Paktia, Paktika in Afghanistan… North Waziristan, South Waziristan, and Kurram in Pakistan). Mildly closer to western Iranians than any West Eurasian-type Indians, moderately closer to Khorasani Iranians than any West Eurasian-type Indians. Distinguished by an excess of Sintastha-related ancestry. Most analyses place them at 35%-40%, which means they are comparable to the Jatts and Ror of Haryana (but the rest of their ancestry is quite different from those people). Lots of BMAC-related ancestry. The high steppe + high BMAC combo gives them a strong affinity towards Pamiri-sprachbund speakers in Tajikistan. Their AASI is much more noticeable than with southwestern Pashtuns; the Central Pashtuns range around 7%-10%.

      Eastern Pashtuns (Laghman, Kunar, and Nangarhar in Afghanistan… Bajaur, Mohmand, Dir, and much of northern KPK in Pakistan). Mildly closer to West Eurasian-type Indians than western Iranians, slightly closer to Khorasani Iranians than West Eurasian-type Indians. Very similar to southwestern Pashtuns, but with much more northwest South Asian admixture. Sort of like 70% southwestern Pashtun, 30% northwestern Indian (Punjabi, Sindhi, etc.). These Pashtuns have an equal balance of IVC- related and BMAC-related ancestry, and around 30% Sintashta-related ancestry. AASI levels vary around 7%-15%, with most being around 11%-12%.

      All three clusters are genetically closest to each other (versus neighbors). They all share substantial amounts of recent ancestry… and for the most part, they all form intersections on shared clines. All three clusters blend into each other. Ghazni Pashtuns (and most Ghilzai in fact) are transitional between Central and Southwestern Pashtuns; Afridi, Orakzai, and some Kurram Pashtuns are transitional between Northeastern and Central Pashtuns.

      There are many “Pashtuns” who don’t fit into these three clusters. Examples would be a large proportion of KPK Pashtuns who are indistinguishable from Pakistani Punjabis (quite a few of the Reich lab’s “Indian cline” “Pathans” fit this bill… which is why they can use that pop average for the Indian cline). These people are Pashtunized descendants of Hindkowan, so that’s no surprise. Another example might be some Nuristani-like Pashtuns in upper Kunar (self-explanatory).

      But yeah, that’s about the size of it. And if you’re curious about how Pashtuns proper (as an ethnic group) figure in a regional context, it’s like so: Pashtuns are basically genetically intermediate between Pamiri-sprachbund speakers in Tajikistan and the Persianate people of Khorasan (Iran), but with a strong skew towards northwestern India. And in terms of deep ancestry (but not too deep… just recent prehistory), Pashtuns evidence substantial ancestry related to the BMAC, to Sintashta, and to IVC. Culturally though, one could argue that steppe Iranians left the biggest imprint (since Pashtuns do see themselves as a warrior people, are organized into relatively egalitarian-yet-patriarchal tribes, and have tended towards pastoralism with long histories of nomadism)… but that’s much murkier water.

      Hope this helps. If interested in actual genetic analyses, I can post.

      Pictures…

      Southwestern Pashtuns:

      https://unama.unmissions.org/sites/default/files/styles/full_width_image/public/field/image/Ullama%20Jirga%2C%20Kandahar%20150712.jpg?itok=ovGGMIVg

      Central Pashtuns:

      https://as1.ftcdn.net/jpg/01/49/26/78/500_F_149267813_zR2dGlmUmb8gbXHjtsZy9bIFAjPifxzV.jpg

      Eastern Pashtuns:

      https://unama.unmissions.org/sites/default/files/styles/full_width_image/public/field/image/nuristanelders.jpg?itok=9lNkzl7z

      2+
      1. But is Gedmatch fully consistent with whatever you got that analyses from?

        I mean, i even got these different southern kits. If you run them, you’ll notice one is more west asian shifted than the other…

        A231367
        M194702
        M026581
        A746467
        A929542(most west asian shifted)
        M897955(Most south asian shifted….if it belongs to the assumed owner…)

        This is a pashtun/ormuri kit from south waziristan:

        M598875

        These are khost pashtuns(gets even less SI than some of the other kandahari pashtuns….):

        LP8468336
        DN9869787
        QH5650086

        Im not even sure if whatever rule you put for these pashtuns even are true. I mean, apparently kandahari pashtuns(not sure about the one getting 12,5% SI is from kandahar….although its labelled as kakar and kakars should be quiet around the south area) can get maybe even from 11% SI to 20,5% SI(the guy getting 20,5% SI claimed not to be mixed….not sure if it really was his kit….sometiems people get to mix with kits sometimes….happened to an arab. She got the kit of an mixed-arab, but claims to be fully arab and said to has documents about it).

        Im just a bit curious, because im from kandahar too.

        Im not sure how much consistent your analyses are, because i havent seen any calcs or research say that(not even G25 put surba closer to avg gujarati brahmin than to any mazandarani)…but i havent looked at your analyses fully yet…but thanks anyway, man. I really appreciate it.

        But are any kurd and mazandarani also included as “west iranian”?

        0
      2. Regarding Pashtuns, this is almost all wrong.

        There are virtually zero Pashtuns with less than 10% AASI. The vast majority of them are between 15-25% AASI.

        Most of the Pashtuns of Pakistan cluster closer to Punjabis and Dardic peoples, then they do to either Iranians or Afghan Pashtuns. Most Afghan Pashtuns cluster closer to Punjabis and Dards than they do to any Iranian (Khorasani or otherwise).

        0
        1. We will see….i mean, you likely base this off of older researches and your own modelling of G25+ gedmatch calcs….maybe youre right….maybe you arent…

          0
        2. @INDTHINGS

          It’s best to only speak of things which one knows.

          Do what I’ve done: get some samples of Pashtuns from across Afghanistan and Pakistan, and try various analyses with aDNA (qpAdm, PCA, ADMIXTURE), or even simply get G25 coordinates for the samples you acquire (let nMonte do the rest). Try fst and PCA in the context of contemporary populations.

          After you’ve done what I’ve done, then you can write, and then we can talk on an equal level of shared knowledge/understanding.

          But until then, just remember that you don’t know what you’re talking about.

          10+
          1. I haven’t personally done any of the statistical analysis, but others (including on this website) have, and the results pretty much all agree with what I’ve said.

            Feel free to post contrary data.

            0
          2. Wow….even admixture, PCA and G25 is saying that….

            I guess youre a member of Dilawer khans sapda project.

            I cant wait for the analyses youre going to post…

            0
      3. Wait….that fact that NE AFG pashtuns get modelled as 3/10 Westeurasian-shifted desis and rest kandahari pashtun(i doubt for all kandahari pashtuns….i mean, are all southern pashtuns really under that cluster? I mean, the kits i posted….), doesnt it kind of contradict with them being just a bit closer to these desis than iranians? I thought they be more like 30% W iranian and rest desi, while southern pashtuns 55-60% W iranian(maybe) and rest westurasian desi?

        0
      4. llook, i tried to do the modelling myself:

        “sample”: “Custom:AGUser_Khanabadoshi”,
        “fit”: 2.0153,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA”: 35.83,
        “IVCp”: 32.5,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA”: 11.67,
        “Simulated_AASI”: 10,
        “KAZ_Dali_EBA”: 4.17,
        “MNG_XiongNu”: 3.33,
        “IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA”: 2.5,
        “closestDistances”: [
        “IVCp:Simulated_by_Pegasus: 8.356195”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7414: 12.003306”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7416: 12.873740”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7419: 12.931392”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7492: 13.143924”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7420: 13.586767”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7421: 13.659672”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4289: 13.669834”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4288: 14.362797”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7542: 14.520746”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4285: 14.534719”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4286: 14.841452”,
        “IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA:I4243: 18.513565”,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4160: 18.853628”,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4257: 20.138487”,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4258: 21.814037”,
        “KAZ_Dali_EBA:I3447: 23.313920”,
        “Simulated_AASI:By_Matt: 36.135119”,
        “Simulated_AASI:By_traject: 41.501179”,
        “MNG_XiongNu:DA39: 46.246897”,
        “MNG_XiongNu:DA43: 49.372259”,
        “MNG_XiongNu:DA45: 49.786300”
        ]
        },
        {
        “sample”: “Custom:AGUser_Mingle”,
        “fit”: 2.8274,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA”: 40,
        “IVCp”: 19.17,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA”: 17.5,
        “IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA”: 11.67,
        “Simulated_AASI”: 8.33,
        “KAZ_Dali_EBA”: 1.67,
        “MNG_XiongNu”: 1.67,
        “closestDistances”: [
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7419: 10.32477”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7414: 10.63865”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7416: 10.73646”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4289: 10.75322”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7492: 10.98696”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7542: 11.03603”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7421: 11.09292”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7420: 11.21956”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4288: 11.29255”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4285: 11.68536”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4286: 12.36580”,
        “IVCp:Simulated_by_Pegasus: 12.66654”,
        “IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA:I4243: 14.09414”,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4160: 15.40198”,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4257: 16.74796”,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4258: 18.14766”,
        “KAZ_Dali_EBA:I3447: 23.33202”,
        “Simulated_AASI:By_Matt: 40.65719”,
        “Simulated_AASI:By_traject: 45.97035”,
        “MNG_XiongNu:DA39: 48.72254”,
        “MNG_XiongNu:DA43: 51.77937”,
        “MNG_XiongNu:DA45: 52.26088”
        ]
        },
        {
        “sample”: “Khatri:agentlime_AGUser”,
        “fit”: 3.384,
        “IVCp”: 34.17,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA”: 31.67,
        “Simulated_AASI”: 10,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA”: 10,
        “KAZ_Dali_EBA”: 7.5,
        “IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA”: 6.67,
        “MNG_XiongNu”: 0,
        “closestDistances”: [
        “IVCp:Simulated_by_Pegasus: 9.205222”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7414: 12.298668”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7419: 12.654049”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7492: 13.242848”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7416: 13.270916”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4289: 13.482790”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7421: 13.743342”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7420: 13.756836”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7542: 13.779390”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4288: 14.273767”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4285: 14.334400”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4286: 15.018009”,
        “IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA:I4243: 17.749606”,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4160: 18.269399”,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4257: 19.718177”,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4258: 21.038477”,
        “KAZ_Dali_EBA:I3447: 23.289221”,
        “Simulated_AASI:By_Matt: 37.274068”,
        “Simulated_AASI:By_traject: 42.478328”,
        “MNG_XiongNu:DA39: 47.719183”,
        “MNG_XiongNu:DA43: 50.707897”,
        “MNG_XiongNu:DA45: 51.081925”
        ]
        },
        {
        “sample”: “Pashai_Dardic:VelvetNono_AGUser”,
        “fit”: 2.1575,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA”: 46.67,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA”: 19.17,
        “IVCp”: 16.67,
        “Simulated_AASI”: 8.33,
        “KAZ_Dali_EBA”: 4.17,
        “IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA”: 2.5,
        “MNG_XiongNu”: 2.5,
        “closestDistances”: [
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7414: 10.03818”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7416: 10.39090”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7492: 10.42502”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7419: 10.52731”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7420: 10.95507”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4289: 11.11862”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7421: 11.12590”,
        “IVCp:Simulated_by_Pegasus: 11.47976”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4288: 11.86850”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4286: 12.06560”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7542: 12.09550”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4285: 12.20446”,
        “IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA:I4243: 15.28823”,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4160: 16.04476”,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4257: 17.49409”,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4258: 19.27092”,
        “KAZ_Dali_EBA:I3447: 22.68180”,
        “Simulated_AASI:By_Matt: 39.59665”,
        “Simulated_AASI:By_traject: 44.97177”,
        “MNG_XiongNu:DA39: 48.07849”,
        “MNG_XiongNu:DA43: 51.15500”,
        “MNG_XiongNu:DA45: 51.67466”
        ]
        },
        {
        “sample”: “Pashtun:Rukha_AGUser”,
        “fit”: 1.8502,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA”: 45.83,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA”: 27.5,
        “IVCp”: 10,
        “KAZ_Dali_EBA”: 5,
        “Simulated_AASI”: 5,
        “MNG_XiongNu”: 4.17,
        “IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA”: 2.5,
        “closestDistances”: [
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7416: 10.21024”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7419: 10.30670”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7414: 10.36911”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7492: 10.37782”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4289: 10.67960”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7421: 10.73944”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7420: 10.75869”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4288: 10.92396”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7542: 11.27600”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4286: 11.57652”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4285: 11.70320”,
        “IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA:I4243: 12.77576”,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4160: 13.44307”,
        “IVCp:Simulated_by_Pegasus: 14.35381”,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4257: 14.78633”,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4258: 16.68122”,
        “KAZ_Dali_EBA:I3447: 21.60592”,
        “Simulated_AASI:By_Matt: 41.85107”,
        “Simulated_AASI:By_traject: 47.40048”,
        “MNG_XiongNu:DA39: 48.07335”,
        “MNG_XiongNu:DA43: 51.30785”,
        “MNG_XiongNu:DA45: 51.87561”
        ]
        },
        {
        “sample”: “Pashtun:surbakhun_AGUser”,
        “fit”: 2.107,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA”: 53.33,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA”: 18.33,
        “IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA”: 10.83,
        “IVCp”: 7.5,
        “MNG_XiongNu”: 5.83,
        “Simulated_AASI”: 4.17,
        “KAZ_Dali_EBA”: 0,
        “closestDistances”: [
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7416: 8.664824”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7419: 9.027914”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4289: 9.065938”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7414: 9.094469”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7492: 9.115483”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7421: 9.334684”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7420: 9.364768”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4288: 9.655835”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7542: 9.996749”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4285: 10.226164”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4286: 10.346571”,
        “IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA:I4243: 13.029717”,
        “IVCp:Simulated_by_Pegasus: 14.486684”,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4160: 14.514925”,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4257: 15.880210”,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4258: 17.618880”,
        “KAZ_Dali_EBA:I3447: 23.107926”,
        “Simulated_AASI:By_Matt: 42.351389”,
        “Simulated_AASI:By_traject: 47.922954”,
        “MNG_XiongNu:DA39: 48.253536”,
        “MNG_XiongNu:DA43: 51.362134”,
        “MNG_XiongNu:DA45: 51.942717”
        ]
        },
        {
        “sample”: “Potohar_Brahmin:Rahul77_AGUser”,
        “fit”: 1.9991,
        “IVCp”: 40,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA”: 24.17,
        “Simulated_AASI”: 13.33,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA”: 12.5,
        “KAZ_Dali_EBA”: 7.5,
        “MNG_XiongNu”: 1.67,
        “IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA”: 0.83,
        “closestDistances”: [
        “IVCp:Simulated_by_Pegasus: 7.308931”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7414: 14.408574”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7419: 15.298558”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7416: 15.425579”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7492: 15.509800”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7420: 15.987127”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4289: 16.127887”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7421: 16.161263”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4288: 16.840305”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7542: 16.840752”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4285: 17.085121”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4286: 17.378901”,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4160: 20.108981”,
        “IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA:I4243: 20.376972”,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4257: 21.380288”,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4258: 22.988421”,
        “KAZ_Dali_EBA:I3447: 23.003946”,
        “Simulated_AASI:By_Matt: 33.906051”,
        “Simulated_AASI:By_traject: 39.214423”,
        “MNG_XiongNu:DA39: 45.381245”,
        “MNG_XiongNu:DA43: 48.498329”,
        “MNG_XiongNu:DA45: 48.863527”
        ]
        }
        ]

        {
        “sample”: “Custom:AGUser_Khanabadoshi”,
        “fit”: 2.1587,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA”: 37.5,
        “IVCp”: 32.5,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA”: 12.5,
        “Simulated_AASI_NW_by_DMXX”: 7.5,
        “MNG_XiongNu”: 5,
        “KAZ_Dali_EBA”: 3.33,
        “IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA”: 1.67,
        “closestDistances”: [
        “IVCp:Simulated_by_Pegasus: 8.356195”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7414: 12.003306”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7416: 12.873740”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7419: 12.931392”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7492: 13.143924”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7420: 13.586767”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7421: 13.659672”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4289: 13.669834”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4288: 14.362797”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7542: 14.520746”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4285: 14.534719”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4286: 14.841452”,
        “IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA:I4243: 18.513565”,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4160: 18.853628”,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4257: 20.138487”,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4258: 21.814037”,
        “KAZ_Dali_EBA:I3447: 23.313920”,
        “Simulated_AASI_NW_by_DMXX:NW_SGPT: 43.796006”,
        “MNG_XiongNu:DA39: 46.246897”,
        “Simulated_AASI_NW_by_DMXX:NW_SiSBA3: 47.805424”,
        “MNG_XiongNu:DA43: 49.372259”,
        “MNG_XiongNu:DA45: 49.786300”,
        “Simulated_AASI_NW_by_DMXX:NW_SiSBA2: 60.168492”,
        “Simulated_AASI_NW_by_DMXX:NW_GonurBA2: 67.722329”
        ]
        },
        {
        “sample”: “Custom:AGUser_Mingle”,
        “fit”: 2.515,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA”: 50,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA”: 21.67,
        “IVCp”: 9.17,
        “Simulated_AASI_NW_by_DMXX”: 9.17,
        “IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA”: 6.67,
        “MNG_XiongNu”: 3.33,
        “KAZ_Dali_EBA”: 0,
        “closestDistances”: [
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7419: 10.32477”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7414: 10.63865”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7416: 10.73646”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4289: 10.75322”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7492: 10.98696”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7542: 11.03603”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7421: 11.09292”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7420: 11.21956”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4288: 11.29255”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4285: 11.68536”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4286: 12.36580”,
        “IVCp:Simulated_by_Pegasus: 12.66654”,
        “IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA:I4243: 14.09414”,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4160: 15.40198”,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4257: 16.74796”,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4258: 18.14766”,
        “KAZ_Dali_EBA:I3447: 23.33202”,
        “Simulated_AASI_NW_by_DMXX:NW_SGPT: 47.75800”,
        “MNG_XiongNu:DA39: 48.72254”,
        “MNG_XiongNu:DA43: 51.77937”,
        “Simulated_AASI_NW_by_DMXX:NW_SiSBA3: 52.10732”,
        “MNG_XiongNu:DA45: 52.26088”,
        “Simulated_AASI_NW_by_DMXX:NW_SiSBA2: 63.42961”,
        “Simulated_AASI_NW_by_DMXX:NW_GonurBA2: 71.03511”
        ]
        },
        {
        “sample”: “Khatri:agentlime_AGUser”,
        “fit”: 3.0781,
        “IVCp”: 37.5,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA”: 30.83,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA”: 15,
        “Simulated_AASI_NW_by_DMXX”: 6.67,
        “IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA”: 5,
        “MNG_XiongNu”: 3.33,
        “KAZ_Dali_EBA”: 1.67,
        “closestDistances”: [
        “IVCp:Simulated_by_Pegasus: 9.205222”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7414: 12.298668”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7419: 12.654049”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7492: 13.242848”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7416: 13.270916”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4289: 13.482790”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7421: 13.743342”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7420: 13.756836”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7542: 13.779390”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4288: 14.273767”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4285: 14.334400”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4286: 15.018009”,
        “IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA:I4243: 17.749606”,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4160: 18.269399”,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4257: 19.718177”,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4258: 21.038477”,
        “KAZ_Dali_EBA:I3447: 23.289221”,
        “Simulated_AASI_NW_by_DMXX:NW_SGPT: 44.266035”,
        “MNG_XiongNu:DA39: 47.719183”,
        “Simulated_AASI_NW_by_DMXX:NW_SiSBA3: 48.563930”,
        “MNG_XiongNu:DA43: 50.707897”,
        “MNG_XiongNu:DA45: 51.081925”,
        “Simulated_AASI_NW_by_DMXX:NW_SiSBA2: 59.955677”,
        “Simulated_AASI_NW_by_DMXX:NW_GonurBA2: 67.996629”
        ]
        },
        {
        “sample”: “Pashai_Dardic:VelvetNono_AGUser”,
        “fit”: 2.3672,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA”: 50.83,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA”: 16.67,
        “IVCp”: 14.17,
        “KAZ_Dali_EBA”: 5.83,
        “Simulated_AASI_NW_by_DMXX”: 5.83,
        “MNG_XiongNu”: 4.17,
        “IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA”: 2.5,
        “closestDistances”: [
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7414: 10.03818”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7416: 10.39090”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7492: 10.42502”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7419: 10.52731”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7420: 10.95507”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4289: 11.11862”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7421: 11.12590”,
        “IVCp:Simulated_by_Pegasus: 11.47976”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4288: 11.86850”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4286: 12.06560”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7542: 12.09550”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4285: 12.20446”,
        “IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA:I4243: 15.28823”,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4160: 16.04476”,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4257: 17.49409”,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4258: 19.27092”,
        “KAZ_Dali_EBA:I3447: 22.68180”,
        “Simulated_AASI_NW_by_DMXX:NW_SGPT: 46.86424”,
        “MNG_XiongNu:DA39: 48.07849”,
        “Simulated_AASI_NW_by_DMXX:NW_SiSBA3: 51.15218”,
        “MNG_XiongNu:DA43: 51.15500”,
        “MNG_XiongNu:DA45: 51.67466”,
        “Simulated_AASI_NW_by_DMXX:NW_SiSBA2: 62.94386”,
        “Simulated_AASI_NW_by_DMXX:NW_GonurBA2: 70.47229”
        ]
        },
        {
        “sample”: “Pashtun:Rukha_AGUser”,
        “fit”: 1.84,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA”: 50.83,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA”: 30,
        “MNG_XiongNu”: 6.67,
        “IVCp”: 5.83,
        “Simulated_AASI_NW_by_DMXX”: 4.17,
        “KAZ_Dali_EBA”: 2.5,
        “IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA”: 0,
        “closestDistances”: [
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7416: 10.21024”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7419: 10.30670”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7414: 10.36911”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7492: 10.37782”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4289: 10.67960”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7421: 10.73944”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7420: 10.75869”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4288: 10.92396”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7542: 11.27600”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4286: 11.57652”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4285: 11.70320”,
        “IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA:I4243: 12.77576”,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4160: 13.44307”,
        “IVCp:Simulated_by_Pegasus: 14.35381”,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4257: 14.78633”,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4258: 16.68122”,
        “KAZ_Dali_EBA:I3447: 21.60592”,
        “MNG_XiongNu:DA39: 48.07335”,
        “Simulated_AASI_NW_by_DMXX:NW_SGPT: 49.60611”,
        “MNG_XiongNu:DA43: 51.30785”,
        “MNG_XiongNu:DA45: 51.87561”,
        “Simulated_AASI_NW_by_DMXX:NW_SiSBA3: 53.56866”,
        “Simulated_AASI_NW_by_DMXX:NW_SiSBA2: 65.07408”,
        “Simulated_AASI_NW_by_DMXX:NW_GonurBA2: 73.08698”
        ]
        },
        {
        “sample”: “Pashtun:surbakhun_AGUser”,
        “fit”: 1.9522,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA”: 60,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA”: 18.33,
        “MNG_XiongNu”: 5.83,
        “IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA”: 5,
        “Simulated_AASI_NW_by_DMXX”: 4.17,
        “IVCp”: 3.33,
        “KAZ_Dali_EBA”: 3.33,
        “closestDistances”: [
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7416: 8.664824”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7419: 9.027914”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4289: 9.065938”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7414: 9.094469”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7492: 9.115483”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7421: 9.334684”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7420: 9.364768”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4288: 9.655835”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7542: 9.996749”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4285: 10.226164”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4286: 10.346571”,
        “IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA:I4243: 13.029717”,
        “IVCp:Simulated_by_Pegasus: 14.486684”,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4160: 14.514925”,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4257: 15.880210”,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4258: 17.618880”,
        “KAZ_Dali_EBA:I3447: 23.107926”,
        “MNG_XiongNu:DA39: 48.253536”,
        “Simulated_AASI_NW_by_DMXX:NW_SGPT: 49.906647”,
        “MNG_XiongNu:DA43: 51.362134”,
        “MNG_XiongNu:DA45: 51.942717”,
        “Simulated_AASI_NW_by_DMXX:NW_SiSBA3: 54.179454”,
        “Simulated_AASI_NW_by_DMXX:NW_SiSBA2: 66.111777”,
        “Simulated_AASI_NW_by_DMXX:NW_GonurBA2: 73.456076”
        ]
        },
        {
        “sample”: “Potohar_Brahmin:Rahul77_AGUser”,
        “fit”: 1.8944,
        “IVCp”: 36.67,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA”: 25.83,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA”: 13.33,
        “Simulated_AASI_NW_by_DMXX”: 10.83,
        “KAZ_Dali_EBA”: 5.83,
        “MNG_XiongNu”: 4.17,
        “IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA”: 3.33,
        “closestDistances”: [
        “IVCp:Simulated_by_Pegasus: 7.308931”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7414: 14.408574”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7419: 15.298558”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7416: 15.425579”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7492: 15.509800”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7420: 15.987127”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4289: 16.127887”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7421: 16.161263”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4288: 16.840305”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7542: 16.840752”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4285: 17.085121”,
        “UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA:I4286: 17.378901”,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4160: 20.108981”,
        “IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA:I4243: 20.376972”,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4257: 21.380288”,
        “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4258: 22.988421”,
        “KAZ_Dali_EBA:I3447: 23.003946”,
        “Simulated_AASI_NW_by_DMXX:NW_SGPT: 41.851678”,
        “MNG_XiongNu:DA39: 45.381245”,
        “Simulated_AASI_NW_by_DMXX:NW_SiSBA3: 45.428283”,
        “MNG_XiongNu:DA43: 48.498329”,
        “MNG_XiongNu:DA45: 48.863527”,
        “Simulated_AASI_NW_by_DMXX:NW_SiSBA2: 57.677549”,
        “Simulated_AASI_NW_by_DMXX:NW_GonurBA2: 65.706102”
        ]
        }
        ]

        its a bit hard to make it as correct as you. Dont know th exact references you used…

        0
  15. Sam, as we know, various SNPs are responsible for skin color and we still need better predictive models. Right now it’s about probabilities with some decent room for error (“7x more likely to”). My hair color is predicted as lighter than it is phenotypically because I have some derived alleles responsible, a situation opposite to yours.

    If you’re a redhead, what causes your lighter skin color might be those red hair mutations despite being a heterozygote in this case. I believe SLC24A5 and to a lesser extent the more European-centered SLC45A2 are the ones who explain the most variance in current West Eurasian models and that’s why they keep being used so much in those studies.

    I’ll repeat that in the specific skin color-associated SNP discussed in the OP, the Sintashta had contemporary southern-to-central European and northern Caucasian levels which are somewhat lower compared to the northern European regions. But skin color is the phenotypical quality where there’s least difference within contemporary Europe per unexposed skin color studies, perhaps with the exception of the British Isles where the high frequencies of red-hair associated alleles produce very pale people at slightly higher percentage than the rest. I’m not even sure if Sardinians differ much from the European average on that trait.

    The trait that differs the most within Europe seems to be the blond hair that has the highest frequencies in the East Baltic and, per the recent East Baltic/Finnic paper, emerges there during the post-Corded period of admixture with local HG groups in close to modern frequencies. With more samples, a similar starting model can be applied to Scandinavia too where we see what happened in the post-Beaker period. A better case can be made for attempts of better models as they apply to moderns first before ancient populations are tested but we all know or should know those results are a bit tentative or at best in the ballpark, not nearly 100% accurate, right now.

    But I think Razib has a good point about concepts like “white” and even “European” being equivocated as convenient as applied to both ancient and modern populations.

    0
  16. So one thing that I found interesting from Vaghesh’s discussion was his confirmation that the Steppe pastoralists (Sintashta ?) essentially bypassed the BMAC before coming to South Asia. This is curious given the distances concerned. One would expect the steppe pastoralists to have intermixed with people of the BMAC and then the descendants would be the ones who move on into South Asia. However, it seems that there was little BMAC contribution to the South Asia genome. [http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/03/andronovo-pastoralists-brought-steppe.html]

    Would this indicate that the migration of the steppe people happened over a relatively short period of time and hence there was little time for the admixture to become part of the migration? This would also explain the male mediated impact of the steppe people on South Asia.

    After all, the Mongols exhibited the exact same pattern after three millenia. Under Genghis the Mongol Empire grew very quickly in a matter of decades.

    1+
  17. After all, the Mongols exhibited the exact same pattern after three millenia. Under Genghis the Mongol Empire grew very quickly in a matter of decades.

    yep. mongol admixture is patchy and leap-frogs.

    0
    1. // yep. mongol admixture is patchy and leap-frogs. //

      What are the similarities in influences of both groups Genetic influences, can you elaborate ?

      0
  18. I had a suspicion that Indo Iranians were not as “Nordic” looking as many made them seem. Whenever I see pictures or videos of white South Asians, they tend to look like Southern Europeans. For instance this Indian is perfect example, in my opinion he has a Western+Southern European look: https://youtu.be/-6jDaoH_xis

    Does not look Scandinavian or Eastern European at all.

    0
  19. Razib, a side question.

    Are Bengalis more shifted towards Europeans like other Indians or more towards the Han Chinese. I recall a PCA plot that showed the cluster skewing slightly towards the Han (due to Austro Asiatic + Tibet Burman admixture), but they were still rather closer to the European cline.

    0
    1. bengalis have more west eurasian dna than east asian dna. europeans are west eurasian. its not surprising they cluster closer to euros than say han chinese.

      0
  20. That’s a very profound question Dan, ‘Are Bengalis more shifted towards the Han as opposed to Europeans’.

    They deffo divert from the usual Indian cline but seem more European than Han.

    Am I right Razib?

    0
  21. I’m Han Chinese. What a beautiful question posed by Dan.

    I think Bengalis are more shifted towards the European due to their West Eurasian components. yes, they have a significant amount of East Eurasian via AASI + Austroasiatic + Burmese, but I think they are still more skewed toward Europeans overall.

    I would love an answer Razib.

    0
  22. Its questions like Dan that inspired my passion for population genetics. I am from a pop geneticist from Singapore and have run treemix and it appears that Bengalis are in fact skewed towards the european vis a vis the Han.

    Razib, can you confirm? As young geneticist, I would like to know if I’m on the right track?

    0
    1. First, Greeks have nothing to do with Aryans. Their historiography still does not recognize that Aryans existed because they were much before Greeks’ appearance in history. Moreover, the first Aryan expedition took future Greeks and Jews from Mesopotamia and brought them to Egypt. From Egypt they later migrated to today’s Greece and Palestine.

      In India, many talk about Indo-Aryans, assuming that Aryans exclusively came to the future India. Aryans went to all parts of South and East Asia, Mesopotamia, even Gulf. It means, they were also Tibeto-Aryans, Afgano-Aryans, Chino-Aryans, etc .

      Who were Aryans? Some say – East Europeans, some – Slavics, some – meaningless ‘steppe’ or ‘Indo-Euroepans’ (usually when want to disguise their identity – genes, language, mythology, culture). Because we have, for almost 200 years, a neverending quest for elusive ‘Indo-Europeans’.

      In 2000 BC, there were no Slavics (term from 7th cAC), no Europe (named thousands of years later).
      There were only Serbian speaking tribes originated in Vinca and Lepenski Vir (Iron Gates).

      It means – Aryans were Serbs (tribes, not as a modern nation), who got the name after their patron, protector of hunters, god Arion (much later Greek’s name – Orion). Their first leader was mentioned in the Bible as ‘gigantic hunter, first before the God’.

      1+
  23. So sintashta were darker than northern Europeans but still lighter than southern Europeans. … That’s still not very dark?

    Still feels like modern Indians populations should be lighter if this were the case?

    0
  24. Still feels like modern Indians populations should be lighter if this were the case?

    if average steppe in north india is 10-20%, really? brahmins and a few other groups 20-30%

    1+
    1. Isnt the steppe reference kind of CHG-influenced itself? WHich would mean if it was alike modern day european, less steppe? Or even pre-indo-european, even less steppe in indians?

      0
    2. team low 20s. I, despite lowly haplogroup H, qualify as ubermensch but still below Razib R1a 30% status of Gods

      All hail Indra

      Jai Shree Ameen

      0
  25. jama0112,

    Halaka… laag kho sabr lara (lol).

    Life happens wrora. Anyway, here’s something nice and simple (just to whet your appetite).

    The idea here was to use only “Bronze Age” reference populations. The exceptions being Sarazm_Eneolithic (an exception made for the sake of the Kalasha, who need that population in their models), and the Han-like Xiong Nu samples (Pashtuns and all other southern Central Asians do often display some level of East Asian/Siberian-related admixture).

    I used the most West Eurasian-shifted samples from “Indus_Periphery_West”. Theoretically, we’re talking around 10% AASI… but, I think we’ll find that this is a bloated estimate, in the near future (assuming we can get our hands on actual AASI genomes). I wouldn’t be surprised if we’re actually looking at around 2%-4% AASI.

    Also, some individuals in my central Pashtun cluster would prefer that their data not be shared with others; so, I’m afraid that I won’t be showing you their results. But below, you’ll see my output for eastern and western Pashtuns.

    Eastern Pashtuns (Bronze Age Modelling):

    35.8% BMAC (Sappali Tepe BA)
    21.1% IVC West Eurasian Migrants + 11% AASI/AHG-related (around 30%-35% total IVC-related ancestry)
    27% Steppe MLBA-related (Dashti Kozy BA) + 2.1% Dali EBA (around 30% steppe-related ancestry)
    2.7% Xiong Nu

    Western Pashtuns (Bronze Age modelling):

    35.7% BMAC (Sappali Tepe BA)
    22.3% Steppe MLBA-related (Dashti Kozy BA) + 0.4% Dali EBA (around 20%-25% steppe-related ancestry)
    12.8% IVC West Eurasian Migrants + 7.4% AASI/AHG-related (around 20% total IVC-related ancestry)
    16% Hajji Firuz BA (ancient northwestern Iran)
    5.4% Xiong Nu

    Eastern Pashtuns have an almost equal balance of BMAC and IVC-related streams of ancestry (only a slight tilt towards BMAC), while western Pashtuns are heavily skewed towards BMAC. Western Pashtuns also evidence ancestry from across the other end of the Iranian plateau (Hajji Firuz BA), an element which is lacking in the ancestry of eastern Pashtuns.

    For comparison, Uttar Pradesh Brahmins:

    50% West Eurasian IVC Migrants + 28.5% AASI/AHG-related (around 75% indigenous, assuming both West Eurasian and ENA portions of IVC-type ancestry are “indigenous” to South Asia)

    19% Steppe MLBA (Dashti Kozy BA) + 2.5% Dali EBA (around 20%-25% steppe-related ancestry)

    Obviously very, very different from Pashtuns. Pashtuns are a population intermediate between Iran, Turan, and Hind, but somewhat skewed towards Turan… while north Indian Brahmins are undeniably a people of Hind. Not exactly a shocker (lol)… nor was it meant to be. Pretty obvious stuff… but sometimes, it’s important to state the plainly obvious.

    But now, something much less obvious:

    Jaat (Haryana)

    38.7% West Eurasian IVC Migrants + 13.3% AASI/AHG-related
    (50%-55% “indigenous”)

    41.6% Steppe MLBA-related (Dashti Kozy BA) + 3.2% Dali EBA (around 45% steppe-related ancestry)

    How are Jaats from Haryana 45% steppe!?! It’s an insane level… these people are steppe-related and IVC-related hybrids. But what does that say about the dynamics of “Aryanization” (these people are “Shudra”, right?). Also, don’t they prove that the Sintashta were swarthy? I mean, I’ve never met a Jaat irl; but pictures of them online seem to show a people totally within the northwestern Indian phenotypic range (no blondes… no one too European looking).

    4+
    1. Sorry for being impatient. You just said you would post the results tonight two days ago and i thought you had forgotten.

      Anyway, you said though western pashtuns will get like 4-5% aasi. It doesnt matter super much to me, but the western pashtuns in your analyses get like 8% aasi(including aasi from IVC). The jatts in your analyses get like 18%. THe least aasi-shifted desi will get like 15% apparently. I assume iranians and kurds will get 1-3% and SE iranians 4,5% aasi.

      Anyways, what about the distances to the iranians and desis in G25 nmonte runner? When i simply just modelled surbha between khatris and mazandaranis, her dad was significanly closer to khatris. Her dad is however equally as close to SE iranians as to westurasian-shifted nw-indians. I think thats the case for most kandahari pashtuns i gedmatch calcs and all. I just havent seen pashtuns being slightly closer to west iranians(55% i assume) as to most westurasian desis. So i kind of assumed you would had posted screenshots of the modellings of the desis and the pashtuns. Also some PCA’s or whatever you got, along with qADmn.

      But i appreciate what youre doing. If you can show me more, that be really nice.

      0
    2. Also, many of these references have like CHG in them and are kind of similiar to each other(not all).’

      So if we had kits of these reference samples and put their gedmacth results together after the percentages in the modellings(like taking 16% of the admix of the steppe-hissar sample or whatever the plateua iranian sample is called), it probably be VERY similiar to the gedmatch results of both pashtuns and desis. And none of the pashtuns are slightly closer to west iranians than most westurasian desis according to all gedmatch calcs. Like i took 16% of one reference group, 45% of another and the rest of a third one after i ran the kits in some kind of specific calc and put them all together and got exactly the same results of the individual that got modelled between these three groups, if i ran the kit of the individual too and compared it to the mix of the three reference groups.

      Im not doubting you and all. I really like what youre doing. I want you even to continue keep posting more info from your analyses, if you can. I just been wondering a bit about it. I mean, only dilawers D-stats and qADmn(according to dilawer himself) will say such things about southern pashtuns. No other dna-analyses had said such a thing(but i havent been lurking too much around those dna-analyses….just been playing a bit with gedmatch calcs and all and a bit with G25, hence why i before came to the conclusion all pashtuns are closer to NW south asians than to west iranians, before i met you).

      It maybe also be nice if you could model west iranians, such as mazandaranis and all. So we also can compare them to the pashtuns.

      But i assume you know what youre doing and know better than i do.
      Also, i assume you arent Sein after all….are you a member of dilawers SAPDA project?

      0
      1. It’s all good.

        I’ll post more analyses (this was just a nice, simple little demonstration).

        And I am Sein. I don’t post much now, since things have become very busy irl.

        1+
    3. that 45% is false. they are only 25% on Reich data. the max they get is 30%. there are some weird motivations to peddle high numbers for them. they are at max as steppe as N Indian brahmins.

      only some scando groups are 45% steppe. no one else.

      1+
      1. What you’re saying is completely incorrect.

        The recent Central/South Asian aDNA paper doesn’t include the Jaats and Rors of Haryana. It’s an odd omission… but yeah, there are no numbers for them in that paper. The paper which does model them has these people at 65% Steppe_MLBA! So, me saying 45% is actually quite lower than the estimate seen in the literature.

        And “scando” groups are 45% Steppe_EMBA… not 45% Steppe_MLBA (it wouldn’t make much sense to model them with Sintastha… but if we did, they’d be 75%-80% Steppe_MLBA). Rors and Jaats in Haryana are 45% Central_Steppe_MLBA.

        There’s no way getting around it… these Jaats are IVC-Steppe hybrids. Question is though… what are the implications?

        3+
        1. link the paper. does it model them against other groups with high steppe like N Indian Brahmins? this might just be how they defined stuff with admix. Sikh jatts are modeled in the Reich Narsimha paper. Haryana jats I doubt are THAT different to jump from 25 to 45%. Makes 0 sense. Need an apples to apples comparison.

          Why are you saying 45% when the supposed data you are taking about says 65%? Are you just averaging things?

          0
          1. @thewarlocke:
            The 65% value is strange and quite frankly seems extremely inflated. But the recent paper only included Sikh Jats, who as we all know (assuming that we all have been keeping up with non-official breakdowns of south Asian populations) to be less steppe-like than eastern Jaats are. The breakdown for Rors (thought to be similar to eastern Jaats) on global25 always gives me an average value of 38.33% meanwhile the Kalash values are around 29% to 30% which is consistent with the recent paper. The omission is indeed odd, but I wouldn’t expect any individual Ror or eastern Jaat to be even 50% Krasnoyarsk/Andronovo let alone 65% Andronovo. 40s% for some individuals at a higher steppe end of the cline within the Ror or Jaat groups is not unreasonable, but 50% would be something like a hard cap that I wouldn’t change unless I actually saw some south Asian/Jaat getting 50% MLBA/Krasnoyarsk on global25.

            Also I wouldn’t call Iran HGs “west Eurasians” just yet. They probably had plenty of basal Eurasian input.

            0
          2. @thewarlock

            Here:

            https://www.cell.com/cms/10.1016/j.ajhg.2018.10.022/attachment/711bfd84-99c1-44e6-8b40-fbde264460f6/mmc1

            Haryana Jaat are 70.3% Steppe_MLBA + 21.3% Onge + 8.4% Iran_N

            Haryana Ror are 62.1% Steppe_MLBA + 20% Onge + 17.9% Iran_N

            So yeah (lol).

            But these numbers aren’t correct. Both Steppe_MLBA and AHG are inflated, since Iran_N has no role whatsoever in South Asia’s ancestral streams. Basically, the West Eurasian element unique to South Asia is phylogenetically basal to Iran_N (which inflates AHG, when one uses Iran_N), and has a much more substantial ANE affinity (which greatly inflates Steppe_MLBA, when one uses Iran_N).

            My analysis is better, since I’m using the right references, which yield the right proportions (40% Steppe_MLBA + 2%-5% Botai-related steppe admixture).

            Anyway… I’m assuming you’re Indian? If so, do you have any personal experience with Haryanvi Jaats? And if so (considering Razib’s work on Sintashta pigmentation), do you think they look different from other northwestern Indians? I mean, the data is quite clear: these people are essentially IVC + Steppe hybrids… and they are among the very few Indian populations around today which are unambiguously West Eurasian (like 85% West Eurasian). So, I’d assume that they look distinct in person?

            2+
          3. This is maybe a complement to comments about Jats’ genetics.

            The tribes – Sarmatians, Goths, Sakas, Getae, Massagetaeans (from Danube) are all Serbian speaking tribes.
            (Note -I need to write a separate comment about the origin of the term Scythia and Scythians)

            The names: Heti (i.e. Hati from N.Africa), Geti from Danube (i.e. Goti=Goths) describe the same tribe which spoke Serbian language.
            In India, this name is JATS.
            Today’s JATS are descendants of the ancient Serbian tribe Heti i.e. Hati i.e. Geti i.e. Goti.

            I found these historical facts just recently, I don’t know much about JATS in India but I will try to research other connections (mythology, language) with other Serbian tribes.

            Well – we have now a very specific assertion/conclusion – JATS are Serbs.

            It is open for everyone to give his/her opinion/knowledge about this.

            1+
          4. PS More about Jats…

            While researching ancient Serbian presence in North Africa (re Vandals, Arianism, Serba island, etc) I found the following information:

            – Tutmos III is the sixth pharaoh of the XVIII dynasty. He ruled Egypt from 1486BC until 1425BC. At the temple of Tutmozis III and his sister Numt Amena, we find his colourful fighting with the nations: Ruthenians, unknown in N.Africa and Heti in Hanan.

            – Setos (ruled from 1445-1394 BC) and his son Ramesses II – on their buildings we find again a recorded victory over the people of Ruthen, Remn and the people of Shaza, and again Heti with their city Kedem, etc. They conquered the countries of Asia and Europe to the Black Sea, and in Finland to the Lika River, conquered Scythia and Thrace in Europe, and considerable part of Asia till India. These victories against Livy, Nubian and Heti were again written on their tombstones

            – Sesostris (Setos’ grandchild, ruled 1391—1328BC) led big ancient expedition of 600 thousand of warriors, 24000 horsemen, 27000 chariots from Africa and invaded Europe and India with intention to conquer the whole world. He conquered all the lands in Europe up to Don, Volga and Danube and in Asia through Gang in India, etc. After nine years of robbing, firing, killing, etc. with many slaves he returned to Egypt.

            The tribes: Heti, Ruteni were Serbian speaking tribes. The remains of these Heti or the ancient Hati in India were known as overly cruel and wild, but at the same time warlike and brave, all travellers in India describe them. They were known in today’s Serbia (and Tripoli) during Trajan’s ruling and in other places, such as Venice and Italy, etc. whom everyone recognize as Serbian and called various Slavic names. Roman poet Ovidiu wrote about them (Ex Ponto) during his exile in Serbian Dacia.

            1+
    4. @commentator: Try to only use things like Kranoyarsk/Andronovo and Sintashta as MLBA. Dashtikoji is around 90% MLBA and 10% something else.

      0
  26. This topic probably requires a dedicated thread, there will be a lot of discussions. This is one of yet taboo topics from ancient SA history. There is still a strong resistance by some circles in India to recognise existence of Aryans and their migration to SA region. A new moment is that some individuals recognise Aryans existence, but they see them as primitive barbarians without any culture who even did not know for agriculture.

    We should prove that it is very opposite from the truth and that Aryans culture was at the world highest level at that time and that strongly enriched SA region, especially the future India, where was inbuilt in the core of their identity up to these days. As a beginning, I nominate MAHABHARATA.

    Among lots of legends, most known to people, is ancient India epos Mahabharat. It contains 200 thousand lines of verses in 18 books. In one of them ‘Forest’ saint sources, rivers and lakes are described. Rivers and lakes of the country called by epic ‘Bharata’, i.e. land of Da’Aryans and H’Aryans. The largest river of Central Russia – Volga till 2nd c.BC was called Ra, in the Avesta was called ‘Ranha’, in Rig Veda and Mahabharata ‘Ganges’.

    Ancient Indian legends call Yamuna the only large tributary of Ganges (Volga), flowing from south-west, what corresponds modern Oka. Tributaries of Oka and rivers of Volga-Oka basin have got names: Yamna, Yam, Ima, Imyev, Yaran (Sunny, Light), Urga (Light Movement), Sura (Sunny) Alatyr (Saint Stone), Lama (Spiritual teacher), Moksha (Enlightenment) and others. According to texts of ancient India, second name of the river Yamuna was Kala, and till nowadays estuary of Yamuna is called by the locals as estuary of Kala.

    In Rigveda and Mahabharata other large rivers and towns are mentioned. Thus, not far from river head of Yamuna (Oka) there is a river head of Sindhu (in Sanskrit – flow, sea) – modern Don, flowing to the East and South and falling into Red Sea (how Black Sea was called by ancient tribes). On the coast of this Sea nation Sindi was leaving and there was situated town Sind (Anapa). Town Manusha correlates with modern Moscow, town Rama geographically corresponds Kolomna, Sita-to Serpukhov, Shiva-to Ryazan, Soma-to Suzdal, Vamana – to Murom and others….

    1+
    1. @Milan:
      >world’s highest culture at the time
      Yeah that is why south Asia didn’t have civilization post IVC until the Greco-Persian influences came along.
      If anything, Aryans seem to be very good at kind of uhhh ‘returning to the roots’ and clamping down on complex society instead of establishing high culture themselves. The high culture is a product of the farmers .eg the Balkan (obviously includes Vinca), Western European, LBK and the later GAC farmer cultures of Europe.
      I would comment more on this but I wouldn’t want to offend certain readers so I will leave it to that.

      0
  27. @Commentator

    A quote form the figures you posted

    Ror 0.468 0.473 0.059 0.092 0.056 0.04 Indus_Diaspora Steppe_MLBA Onge
    Kalash 0.555 0.445 NA 0.129 0.078 NA Indus_Diaspora Steppe_MLBA Onge
    Khatri 0.765 0.235 NA 0.13 0.078 NA Indus_Diaspora Steppe_MLBA Onge
    Gujjar 0.717 0.214 0.069 0.131 0.08 0.056 Indus_Diaspora Steppe_MLBA Onge
    Kamboj 0.85 0.15 NA 0.134 0.081 NA Indus_Diaspora Steppe_MLBA Onge
    Pathan 0.71 0.29 NA 0.12 0.073 NA Indus_Diaspora Steppe_MLBA Onge
    Jatt 0.601 0.399 NA 0.232 0.14 NA Indus_Diaspora Steppe_MLBA Onge
    Brahmin_Guj 0.675 0.234 0.091 0.129 0.078 0.055 Indus_Diaspora Steppe_MLBA Onge
    Gujaratis 0.56 0.214 0.226 0.109 0.065 0.047 Indus_Diaspora Steppe_MLBA Onge
    Brahmins_UP 0.429 0.34 0.23 0.141 0.083 0.062 Indus_Diaspora Steppe_MLBA Onge

    55.5% Steppe in Kalash
    46.8% Steppe in Rors
    60.1% Steppe in Jats
    42.9% Steppe in UP Brahmins
    56% Steppe in Gujarati Brahmins

    These numbers are WAY over what Reich study had. These are massive differences based on defining Steppe differently entirely. Even if you want extrapolate further then, Haryana Jats are max a little bit more Steppe than Kalash.

    You asked about my real life observations. Well here they are. My dad grew up in New Delhi, a place full of Haryana Jats. I spent many summers there. One of my best friends in America is Haryana Jat. Her mom’s side looks like typical very NW Indians and NW S Asian populations, fitting in well in NW India and even N Pakistan. Her Dad’s side is browner and more Indic looking you can say. I worked under her Dad, and several people asked if I was his son. This is what I look like, just a regular Indian dude. I am Gujarati Vania, and I have about as much Steppe as Gujarati B, but less Iranic Farmer (now related mesolithic Iranian per new data), and more AASI (similar to Gujarati C levels), so about 20-22% steppe.

    https://i.imgur.com/umMW7FY.jpg
    https://i.imgur.com/hCLeZI3.jpg
    https://i.imgur.com/L6fR5RX.jpg

    Here are some pics from Jat agitation, a Haryana Jat protest for more affirmative action benefits.

    https://images.livemint.com/rf/Image-621×414/LiveMint/Period1/2016/02/24/Photos/jatprotests-kfEG–621×[email protected]
    https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/05/31/22/34CDAC8300000578-3618564-image-a-1_1464730920689.jpg
    https://images.livemint.com/rf/Image-621×414/LiveMint/Period1/2016/02/24/Photos/jatprotests-kfEG–621×[email protected]
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Jat_Agitation_for_reservation.jpg
    https://d1u4oo4rb13yy8.cloudfront.net/article/acpfaastbn-1465496522.jpg
    https://d1u4oo4rb13yy8.cloudfront.net/article/exnywbzqdf-1465392708.jpg

    They look like regular NW Indians to me. There is a lot of diversity.

    0
  28. ^also sorry. above I quoted Iran Farmer number of those groups. Steppe was

    47.3 Rors
    44.5 Kalash
    39.9 Jat
    34.0 UP Brahmin
    23.5 Khatri
    23.4 Guju Brahmin
    21.4 Gujarati

    Kalash are like 30% in Narsimha paper. Jats are like 25%. Khatri and Guju Brahmin and Khatri numbers seem consistent. Gujaratis at 21.4 seem consistent with Gujarati B and right around my steppe levels.

    For whatever reason, this paper really ups the numbers for Kalash, Jats, and Rors. I have no idea why. But say just for argument’s sake, Narsimha paper is correct for 30% for Kalash. Then yeah sure like 32% for Rors seems reasonable. Your argument still stands for the most Indus Steppe hybrid people, just with less emphasis on Steppe component.

    0
  29. @thewarlock: The MLBA (Krasnoyarsk) ancestry for Rors as a group consistently comes out as being ~38.33% on average (this is the same method which gives Kalash results between 29% and 30% which is consistent with the recent paper’s results regarding the Kalash). 32% would probably be close to a low end value within Rors.

    0
  30. Raz, one comment: On rs16891982, if you haven’t already, maybe double check you’re looking at Sintashta main cluster rather than Sintashta including outliers.

    The series we have of the societies on the cusp of the Middle-Late Bronze Age, Sintashta, and particularly the preceding Potapovka series, were actually genetically quite diverse in some ways, with numerous individuals with a North Eurasian affinities (transitional between the population at Botai and populations of the Western Steppe).

    Those individuals may plausibly come from a population with different frequency re: SLC45A2 variants (and will be quite a bit further outside present-day genetic variation, so harder to characterize in terms of pigmentation). They are possibly present in high enough frequency to hit roughly 10% of samples, though I can’t remember the exact number.

    I’d also advise to consistency check with the wider Steppe_MLBA panel, for this same reason (later Steppe_MLBA, while being more geographically far flung, funnily enough are in some ways are more European/Corded Ware like, while the Potapovka series, for ex, has only one truly Corded Ware like individual).

    If you have screened out the outliers, then of course this won’t matter much.

    0
    1. Hi, Razib
      I got a few questions to ask.

      How many percent of Steppe R1b populations(Afanasievo,Yamnaya,Catacomb,Khvalynsk,Repin,Samara,Dnieper-Donets) have Blonde-Red hair and Blue eyes?

      Do Eastern_Steppe_MLBA and Eastern_Steppe_LBEIA originated from the same Indo-European cultures?

      What period in Bronze Age did East Asian Mongoloid admixtures started becoming predominant among Eastern Steppe Indo-Europeans?

      Thanks

      0
  31. @DaThang- then phenotype wise it is still odd to me. Kalash in pics look more West Eurasian shifted looking than typical NW subcontinent looking Haryana Jats. Genotype I think is very diverse among Jats, hence why the Sikh Jat samples were only 25% in that Narsimha paper. Some people posit mislabeling, but phenotype wise there seems to be quite a bit of variation that I do not think it is unreasonable to suggest sampling bias, something likely occur given the type of expansive herding population the group seems to be.

    0
    1. @thewarlock
      Genotype doesn’t always translate well into phenotype. That and there seems to be some kind of selection against most fair traits in south Asia, Razib talked about it regarding the A2 fair skinned allele in the past if I remember correctly. Furthermore, I don’t think that there was any major sampling bias. I might have said this earlier on somewhere (either this thread or some other one); if you have been keeping up with amateur modeling of north Indian populations so far, you would obviously know that eastern Jats and Rors have a lot more steppe than Sikh/Punjabi/western Jats do (and less IVC-relate ancestry). Why is this the case? I think that the whole label of a “Jat” ethnicity is recently (in the last ~1,000 or so) made and it covers up a bunch of much older distinctions which are now forgotten. That is just a current pet theory of mine.

      Also, the Kalash aren’t as fair as they are depicted, those pictures are often cherry picked by people for various reasons. They do have an elevated frequency of lighter traits though that may have to do with a lower AASI ancestry and high rates of inbreeding (which in the past kind of made Kalash look like their own distinct group genetically when the K values were low).

      1+
    2. @thewarlock

      I don’t know… Jats look West Eurasian too (as in “Caucasoid”). It’s just that they look South Asian (South Asian and West Eurasian aren’t mutually exclusive categories), while the Kalasha look vaguely West Asian, with a vaguely European-looking minority.

      Neither the Kalasha nor the Jaats have enough AASI admixture to leave an imprint on their phenotypes (10%-15% AASI), and the differences between their AASI levels aren’t enough to account for any physical differentiation that might exist between them.

      But the Kalasha do display a substantial affinity towards Sarazm_Eneolithic, with the addition of some minor BMAC-related admixture. Perhaps that explains why they look vaguely West Asian (with a vaguely European-looking minority), while the Jats and Rors look “typical” for northwestern South Asia.

      Also, I found this video:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDjyjdQGRMY&t=3s

      Honestly, I can see these people being around 40% Steppe_MLBA. They do look South Asian… but, there is something different about their facial features.

      And we should always remember that the Sintashta/Andronovo people weren’t contemporary western Europeans (lol… obviously. These were ancient populations rooted in eastern Europe/the western steppe). And as per most physio-anthropological analyses, they were (for the most part) broad faced, cranio-facially robust people. In a sense, one could say that they were significantly “North Eurasian”-shifted in comparison to contemporary Western Europeans (much stronger ANE imprint on their phenotype).

      So instead of thinking that these Jats should look 40% English or something (lol), we should probably imagine them as being 40% Russian, but with 40% ancestry from Russians who looked more extremely/stereotypically “Russian” than any Russians alive today, and who also happened to have darker southern European skin and hair pigmentation.

      (Lmao, I’m just playing around… not being serious. But even in jest, there’s always a very vague, kinda amorphous, sorta intuitive-yet-rather exaggerated truth).

      For phenotypic comparison with the Jats, here are the Kalasha:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDzGdk2tHfs

      (interestingly, the two Europeans in their midst aren’t pale in comparison to the Kalasha. They fit in, pigmentation-wise)

      1+
      1. @Commentator:
        1- Keep in mind that all of MLBA is not the same thing.
        2- The Rors get ~38.33% Krasnoyarsk/Andronovo. Do you have any estimates for a decently large group of Haryana and other eastern Jats to prove that they are ~40% Krasnoyarsk? if not, then it is just guesswork, and thus not ideal.

        I am sure that you could find some 40%ers among them but I doubt that 40% is the average group value.

        0
        1. @DaThang

          Is the 38.33% Kransoyarsk for the Ror the average? Seems a bit high. I would think they are closer to 36-37%. Some of them also seem to score “Siberian” like Steppe.

          I’ve seen the Jatt Sikhs on poi’s (genica mod) G25 tool getting 25-30% Krasnoyarsk or Sintashta and the Haryana/Hindu Jaats (1 Pathak sample + 1 West UP Sheoran) get 38-39%.

          0
      2. @Commentor
        I don’t see it phenotypically, especially not in agitation pics I posted. But genotype could be. Many even look medium brown regular Indid Plains types. Also, are Rors representative of all Haryana Jats? That could be a minority of them, thus explaining the agitation pics not fitting, insofar as it is more broad Haryana Jats and not just Rors.
        Also, both are more than 10-15% AASI. Narsimha had Kalash at 30% steppe. And part of Iran Neolithic component is AASI, something like 25% if you average the three Indus Periphery individuals they used.
        Out of curiosity, where would you think I am from? I think I have a very classic pan S Asian pheno.

        Also even 10 to 15% impacts pheno. That is why African Americans who are like 85% SSA look different than Subsaharan West Africans.

        0
        1. On G25, Kalash are consistently around 11-13% AASI either using simulated AASI coordinates or the Indus Periphery (SIS BA3) or Saidu Sharif Outlier (SSo) in modeling. The Ror average is around 17.3% AASI and the single Pathak Hindu Jaat sample is around 17% AASI while the West UP Jatt data provided via genica is also around 17% AASI. There are 12 Punjabi Jatt coordinates provided by forum members via their own data and relatives/friends who average out to 19% AASI.

          0
      3. ALso, since you been analysing pashtuns, what about AFG tajiks and west afghans(like heratis), along with PAK balochs and south east iranians(bandaris and balochs)? And kambojas+ rors and jatts too? Where are they placed?

        ALso, when youre talking about westeurasian-shifted indians when its comes to pashtuns clustering slightly closer to west iranians, are we talking about jatts and khatris? Like least south asian-shifted desis?

        0
      4. Hey, Sein. Someone i know, posted your ideas of the pashtun cluster in anthrogenica. The members there are saying youre wrong. These are their feedback:

        (Member: Censored)

        “That doesn’t seem particularly accurate.

        The eastern Pashtuns(HGDP) seem to be closer to west eurasian shifted indians than they are either to southwestern pashtuns or Iranians.

        Sample Details Fit Map Pashtun–HGDP00222
        1 Iranian_Fars:Average 14.2764 Open Map 100
        2 Khatri:Average 1.9398 Open Map 100
        3 Pashtun Kandahar: Modern; 6.5239 Open Map 100

        And the distance between Kandahar pashtun and:

        “sample”: “Iranian_Fars:Average”,
        “fit”: 9.3614,

        “sample”: “Khatri:Average”,
        “fit”: 7.0164,

        The component that is missing in Rors is BMAC. With Onge+Iran_N you account for the IVC ancestry but not BMAC.”

        (Member Sapporo):

        “Sein should just post the actual nMonte outputs (including fits) rather than whatever estimates or rounded amounts he is claiming in his post. Regardless, even Kandaharis are significantly closer to NW South Asian types (“West-Eurasian Indian” types?) than they are to Western Iranians like Kurds, Azeris, Lurs, etc.

        Also, the Iranian_Fars that censored used above as a proxy for Western Iranians is still further from the Kandahar/Southwest Pashtuns (the least south asian shifted pashtuns?) in G25 than to Khatris despite “Central” Fars Iranians being slightly more “South Asian” shifted than Western/Northwestern Iranians (someone correct me if I’m wrong). On a separate note, he is giving inflated Steppe scores for some of the Pashtun groups as well.

        Don’t even get met started on the Iran N argument he us using based off the Shinde paper. For whatever reason, he thinks South Asians have no actual Iran_N but only Iran Mesolithic while Pashtuns only have Iran N? :/

        @Censored

        Can you post the checkfit distances from the Yusufzai, Uthmankhel and Tarkalani averages to Punjabi Khatris, Kamboj and Jatt Sikh averages? These are the ones that Sein claims are mildly closer to NW South Asians than to Western Iranians? He needs a reality check.

        Regarding Khorasanis, I haven’t seen any academic or anthro fora samples for them. I imagine they cline with Southern Iranians and Heratis/Western Afghans though.”

        (From Mingle):

        “Maybe he was confusing Iran N with Seh Gabi? The Iranian user DMXX said that Seh Gabi(?) could be added as a component for Pashtuns on G25 since Pashtuns and Tajiks seem to get minor recent Iranian ancestry and this isn’t really present among South Asians. This recent excess Iran N ancestry may be what he was trying to detect here, not exactly sure.”

        (From sapporo):

        “I don’t think that’s it. Seh Gabi is just an ancient Iranian pop made up of ANF + Iran N (like Tepe Hissar or Hajji Firuz) while Iran N is the ancient elemental pop. Pashtuns and Tajiks score this more than South Asians because they have more ANF ancestry (due to more recent West Iranian geneflow as DMXX alluded to).

        Sein is suggesting South Asians have an entirely different type of Iranian like ancestry (Iran M/Indian M) that is related to Iran N (the actual Zagrosian farmer ancestry) as their only source of “Iranian” like ancestry. Basically, arguing, that Pashtuns have only BMAC like ancestry for the most part as their “Iran N” source while South Asians (including NW ones) only have IVC like ancestry (coming from Iran M based on the new paper) rather than Iran N.”

        I just wanted to hear your thoughts on this matter…

        0
        1. Jama0112,

          There’s so much here that’s absolutely wrong; I don’t even know where to start.

          If there’s interest in seeing my analyses, and an interest in discussing these questions further, tell them they should allow me membership at the forum. If that’s done, I’ll address everyone directly. Not immediately though (I don’t have the sort of spare time that I once enjoyed).

          PS: Tell them that the Khatri are an odd choice…. because they have BMAC-related admixture. They’re not identical to Punjabi Jatts… because they’re shifted towards ancient Turan.

          And where are they getting this stuff about Iran_N, and about Pashtuns not having South Asian-specific West Eurasian admixture? People need to learn to read.

          Also, with respect to the Kalasha:

          They are distinct. They have an affinity towards Sarazm_EN (which explains the famed excess of MA1 affinity noticed from the very beginning. Sarazm_EN has additional North Eurasian ancestry). Northeastern Pashtuns are more on a cline between southwestern Pashtuns and West Eurasian-type Indians, with a slight off-Cline skew towards central Pashtuns.

          We don’t have much data for other Dardic peoples (they might be distinct from the Kalasha).

          0
  32. @Dathang

    Any hypothesis why selection against fair traits, if indoaryans were on top of social hierarchy? it seems counterintuitive and certainly is contrary to modern era selection standards that worship “sharp” features, light skin, and light eyes.

    0
    1. @thewarlock
      UV levels are high in south Asia, dying of skin cancer of various types is bad for the survival of certain traits, just like how the darker bronze age people in Europe didn’t do well compared to their lighter counterparts due to the lack of sufficient sunlight.

      Also, as Razib said earlier, MLBA populations weren’t as light as modern day Nords. They were probably more like modern Italians on average or something like that.

      Also, while the Jat video that commentator posted is likely cherry picked, they do look different phenotypically in terms of their skull structure. But once again, that isn’t representative of all Jats and skull structure does have quite a bit of variation in any group.

      0
  33. Even if Sintashta were the same as modern Lithuanians – only very few of them (I think from 3% to 6% are that blonde like in Razib’s picture), which means that if, hypothetically, one had an overall 30% admixture of Lithuanians in IVC only max 2% among them could have really been flax blonde. Having in mind that genes for blonde hair are recessive, it is natural that one would not really find blond people after such admixture.

    0
  34. What proportion Mesolithic Iran like were Steppe people? If the Rors are indeed high 30s Steppe, and Steppe people themselves were also large enough part Mesolithic Iranian, then they might be, on average, perhaps of majority Steppe like ancestry. Regardless, other components are present in sufficient quantity that disowning other parts of their heritage would still be a bit odd.

    0

Comments are closed.