25 thoughts on “Open Thread – Brown Pundits”

  1. This topic probably requires a dedicated thread, there will be a lot of discussions. This is one of yet taboo topics from ancient SA history. There is still a strong resistance by some circles in India to recognise existence of Aryans and their migration to SA region. A new moment is that some individuals recognise Aryans existence, but they see them as primitive barbarians without any culture who even did not know for agriculture.

    We should prove that it is very opposite from the truth and that Aryans culture was at the world highest level at that time and that strongly enriched SA region, especially the future India, where was inbuilt in the core of their identity up to these days. As a beginning, I nominate MAHABHARATA.

    Among lots of legends, most known to people, is ancient India epos Mahabharat. It contains 200 thousand lines of verses in 18 books. In one of them ‘Forest’ saint sources, rivers and lakes are described. Rivers and lakes of the country called by epic ‘Bharata’, i.e. land of Da’Aryans and H’Aryans. The largest river of Central Russia – Volga till 2nd c.BC was called Ra, in the Avesta was called ‘Ranha’, in Rig Veda and Mahabharata ‘Ganges’.

    Ancient Indian legends call Yamuna the only large tributary of Ganges (Volga), flowing from south-west, what corresponds modern Oka. Tributaries of Oka and rivers of Volga-Oka basin have got names: Yamna, Yam, Ima, Imyev, Yaran (Sunny, Light), Urga (Light Movement), Sura (Sunny) Alatyr (Saint Stone), Lama (Spiritual teacher), Moksha (Enlightenment) and others. According to texts of ancient India, second name of the river Yamuna was Kala, and till nowadays estuary of Yamuna is called by the locals as estuary of Kala.

    In Rigveda and Mahabharata other large rivers and towns are mentioned. Thus, not far from river head of Yamuna (Oka) there is a river head of Sindhu (in Sanskrit – flow, sea) – modern Don, flowing to the East and South and falling into Red Sea (how Black Sea was called by ancient tribes). On the coast of this Sea nation Sindi was leaving and there was situated town Sind (Anapa). Town Manusha correlates with modern Moscow, town Rama geographically corresponds Kolomna, Sita-to Serpukhov, Shiva-to Ryazan, Soma-to Suzdal, Vamana – to Murom and others.

    1. Milan, your thesis is interesting one but we still need corroborating evidences. As per you the Aryan culture of Central Asia was highly developed, then that should leave some cultural and archeological trace. Your thesis is based on conjectures , the river and town you quote are also present in India but many more like Kurukshetra where the war was supposedly fought and many other towns and places which are present in India but probably absent in Central Asia. You have right to your opinion but I think need much more supporting evidences to pass the muster. Best of luck.

      1. @Aftab

        Thanks for your reply. That is the way to go. Check for evidence and ask for more to jointly make right conclusion. So far, Razib was getting invites from some individuals for me to be banned.

        Here, what you can see is the first half of my comment. I don’t know why the second part is (with evidence) missing although I posted 3 times. I will ask Razib to publish my comment. In the 2nd part is the list with more then 20 Mahabharata rivers and a list od rivers in Russia with same names. Kurukshetra is the city of Kursk in Russia which is known by the famous battle between invading Germans (lost 200000 soldiers) and Russians (lost 860 000 people).

        Also, Aryan culture is not only Central Asia culture. Aryans originated in Vinca and inherited all from Vinca’s civilization. They were Serbian tribes which 4500 years ago crossed Carpathians (their names in Roman history are Serbian Mountains) and it took them 500 years to reach Hindustan. This branch later became Russians (first mentioned in the 8th cAC).

        Pls wait for my second half of my comment (and new comments) and let’s make a conclusion. I think that it is globaly significant. I have no stake (e.g. AMT o OIT), I am interested in European history (currently heavily falsified) but I know and have evidence that Aryans were Serbian speaking tribes. Cheers.

  2. I used to think that Brown Pundits’ readership was primarily from the NRI / desi / ABCD-equivalent audience, plus that one weird Serbian guy.

    In the last few articles, I noticed that there are quite a few readers of non-Indian subcontinent origin. Any info on how large this base is?

    1. Could you please explain my ‘weirdness’? Have you found ever anything that was incorrect in my comments? Do you think that BP readership/comments should be filtered on racial bases and our skin colours? By the way, there are almost 150-200 million of Indians/Pakistanis of ‘weird’ Aryan origin which I consider my cousins and we are sharing the same ancestors. Can you tell something about this? Can you comment, for example, on ‘weird’ rivers in my last comment? Thanks.

      1. Relax, you can say whatever you want.

        “Do you think that BP readership/comments should be filtered on racial bases and our skin colours?”

        When did I imply this? I was interested to know about the diversity of readers since this blog mostly concentrates on the politics/ history/ culture of one region of the old world. If anything, I see this variety as a positive thing.

        Addendum: There was an old British comedy called Goodness Gracious Me that had an Indian uncle who thought everything was from India, you might like it!


        1. Will do without waiting for your approval or patronizing. My comments are always related to ‘brown’ things and their (mostly historical) relationships with ancient European (i.e. Serbian) history and Aryans. I don’t think that everything came from Vinca civilization where Serbian tribes lived but, I say what it came. And there is a lot. This is probably the oldest world civilization, the oldest language and mythology (if you disagree, speak now) and the most of this is in the foundations of India’s (and others) society. Earlier, couple people asked for me to be banned, you also have some objections (pls explain ‘wierdness’), but none ever mentioned any reason or example. Considering that this is not a blog for intellectuals only, some guys do not know how to conduct polemics in such manner and, it is understandable to see such occasional frustrated reactions when those see something what is not in harmony with their expectations.

          Btw. I posted yesterday three times a comment with Mahabharata rivers, but it is not yet published for some reason. Well, I will see what your (and others) comment on this is.

    2. In the last few articles, I noticed that there are quite a few readers of non-Indian subcontinent origin. Any info on how large this base is?

      it’s about 50% white. 40% brown.

      1. @ Razib

        Following democratic rules, another 1% and you should rename the blog to WP (white pundits) -:) . All ‘brownies’ including doodlebug, eccentric, concentric, weirds, yagguistan, bp_man, even taqiyyamen are welcome to remain.

        In addition, I posted my comment 3 times but it was not published (the list of Mahabharata rivers). Some people asking me for evidence for assertions in my first comment. If you lost this my comment, I will post it again (in about 9 hours). I think this is a huge thing, saying more than recent genetics papers we were discussing.

        I use this opportunity to invite OIT people to take leadership and accept the fact of Aryans existence. They should find the way to smoothly incorporate them in their theory, to change OIT name (it is easy because it is not official), to acknowledge the cultural contribution of Aryans who were among the first Indians, to respect them as one of the ancestors, to act as an integrating not as a dividing factor, to contribute to Indian society as their patriots.

        Otherwise, your activities, used to be against evidence, are becoming against common sense and ultimately you can finish as lunatics. Use this window of opportunity, otherwise someone else will do and will marginalize you…..Nilesh, I am talking to you….

        Txs, MT

        1. Following democratic rules, another 1% and you should rename the blog to WP (white pundits) -:) . All ‘brownies’ including doodlebug, eccentric, concentric, weirds, yagguistan, bp_man, even taqiyyamen are welcome to remain.

          it’s not a democracy. the horde has one khan, and that is me 🙂 also the pundits refers to *bloggers* not *readers*

          1. Since Vinca, Serbs had many kings, tsars (=shahs), Roman emperors, Assyrian rulers, Alexander the Great, princes, dukes, radzas, sardars, etc, you are the first ‘khan’, although I can’t remember what the Attila’s title was…

            Respect to our ancient ancestors!
            (pls publish my – Mahabharata rivers – comment)

  3. @Milan: He probably just means eccentric, which is not a bad thing. I have been called eccentric quite a lot of times IRL but that has not stopped me from doing what I do. Don’t let it stop you either.

  4. Just a lurker here. My ancestry is northwestern European (English, Irish, Scottish, Swedish), and I am a citizen of and resident in the U.S. I’m just indulging a curiosity about ancient migrations and the origins of various peoples and languages.

    1. Donald welcome. Make America great again! I am glad to see your interest in the ancient past and origins. If you haven’t red my comments and if you are interested, may I suggest to research the following (based on your inputs) – what were the royal titles of Swedish and Danish royals up to 1973, who were Vandals, who are Goths (=Celts), where Celts originated, what were their kingdoms in today’s Spain and France, what is the origin of London and Thames, what were Celts names before 1366 (when Celts’s names and sports were forbidden – Braveheart), what is, for e.g. the meaning of the name Bruce (i.e. Brus, e.g. Springsteen, Willis), what does it mean ‘Lug’, how the Wiltshire in England got its name, how Sanskrit got in the English language…(ok, that is about one year of research).

      If you find that Scotts (i.e. Celts), Serbs and Jats in India are the same people – you are my man. If not, publish this as well.

      Good luck, enjoy the journey.

  5. Mircea Eliade was a religious scholar. He was very interested in pre-Christian European history. He wrote a multi-volume set on this religious history called The History of Religious Ideas. For example, he talked about the similarities between sati and ancient Russian funeral rites. Eliade anticipated many of the ritual practices of the Indo-Europeans that archaeology is only now beginning to reveal. He has fallen out of his favor because of his fascist sympathies. Sadly. Heidegger had fascist sympathies but he is still read in many Western universities.

    1. Srini, to make things simpler… Mircea is not out of favorite I even did not know about his fascist sympathies. Back to basics. Romanians are an artificial nation with an artificial language (from the second half of the 19th c.). Vlachs, Moldavian and Transylvanians who constitute the Romanian nation originated in Vinca, they are descendants of Serbian Dacians and Goeths (= Goths = Jats in India). Roman poet Ovid wrote about them while he was in exile in Constance (today’s Romania). Romanians belonged officially to the Serbian Orthodox Church since baptizing until 1924. Jesuits have been working for 300 years to change their mind and they are destined to be Vatican’s (and USA’s) cannon fodder in their penetration to the east and Russia (under Stalingrad, 160000 Romanian soldiers were killed). ‘Indo-Europeans’ do not exist – they were Serbs (and Serbian language). Ancient Russians were also originated from Vinca.

    1. Milan, your thesis looks interesting but lacks substance. The name of rivers and towns you mention are also there in India and much more like Kurukshetra where the war was fought and the places where they actually lived besides the folklore and beliefs. If Aryan were culturally highly developed in Central Asia as you say then they should have left some signs of it especially in stories and folklore. Remember migration doesn’t mean en masse migration.

  6. While we are discussing eccentric theories about Mahabharatha, let me propose that Mahabharata actually encodes the history of Y DNA heritage of India.

    King Santanu, who is of original Bharatha clan has three sons. Two die without children and one remains bachelor. Then next generation, Dhritharastra and Pandu have Y DNA of Vyasa ( step son of Santhanu— also perhaps carrier of AASI through his mother). Then, since Pandu can’t afford to have children, his sons are from the Aryan gods Yama, Vayu, Indra, and Aswins.

    So, basically Mahabharata is not a war between cousins of the same clan but between multiple Y lineages. Between that of Vyasa’s (InPe? Both grand mother and mother of Kauravas from NW of subcontinent ) and Aryan gods.

    After war, only surviving male of the clan is the grandson of Arjuna, who is the son of Indra!! There lies the story of R1a1a spread in India as all of North India was emptied out due to the war.

    (Also, Arjuna says at the beginning of the war, killing all these warriors would cause caste endogamy to break down due to lack of males — although his own family didn’t care who was the real father for anyone).

    Indra didn’t become all father because he did anything for his clan (other than tricking Karna) but because princess Uttara happened to be pregnant (with great grand son of Indra) while everyone else living participated in the war and died.

    Vyasa had other children (including Vidura, who could also be enriched with Iran_N due to his mother) who did not participate in the war but traveled around India re-telling the story their father wrote. So, there are other Y lineages but lost their advantage in Ganges plains due to greed of Suyodhana. The epic was caution against fighting again.

    The end!

  7. My comment with Mahabharata rivers simply cannot get through several times. Let’s see what will happen with this comment:

    According to Mahabharata, to the south of saint forest Kamyaka there was river Praveni (i.e. Pra-river) falling to Yamuna, with lake Godovary. And, still to the south of the Russian city of Vladimir forests there is flowing the river Pra to the river Oka and there is lake God.

  8. Mahabharata tells how wise man Kaushika during drought watered river Paru, which was renamed after him because of this. But further epic tells, that ungrateful local inhabitants still call this river Paru and it flows from the south to Yamuna (i.e. Oka). And, till nowadays river Para is flowing from the south to Oka, which local inhabitants call the same, as many centuries ago.

  9. In description of rivers of 5000 years antiquity it is said about river Pandye, which flows not far from Varuna, tribute of Sindhu (Don). Even nowadays river Panda falls to the largest Don’ tribute-river Varona. Describing trip of pilgrims, Mahabharata informs: “Von Dzala and Upadzala, falling rivers to Yamuna” (“dzha” in Sanskrit – river). This river Zhala (Tarusa) and river Upa, falling close to each other to Oka. In Mahabharata also is mentioned flowing to the west from upper reaches of Ganges (Volg) river Sadanapru (Saint Danapr) – Dnyepar.

  10. It took me 6 times to unsuccessfully send my comment to realize that for the first time and for some reason it will not be published. In this comment are two lists of rivers – Mahabharata rivers and rivers in the basin of the river Oka. The names of all rivers (30-40) are identical, sometimes the difference is in one or two letters only. Maybe the time is still not mature for such comment to be published. It would be a global changing of world history and would have a domino effect.To whom is concerned, as I said, the window of opportunity is open but it will not stay open forever.

  11. Volga, Volga (Ganges) – our ancestral river and Stenka Razin – the 1st Russian silent movie (1908) for serious movie lovers (6 min)

    ‘Volga’ in a modern arrangement – The Seekers (at one moment they were more popular than The Beatles) with my former neighbour, Judith (The Carnival Is Over – Stenka Razin – The Seekers) (4 min)

    Boney M version – The Carnival Is Over 1982 (4 min)


    Stěnka Razin – Lucie Bílá

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