My personal belief is that jati-varna was one of the major reasons that India did not Islamicize more than it did. These sub-elite solidities “absorbed” external shocks and mediated individual relationships with the world. Collective entities like this are common across the world, but the genetic distinctiveness of these groups is like nothing you see elsewhere (with the possible exception of endogamous isolation like premodern Ashkenazim). I also believe that the jati in particular predates the arrival of the Aryans 3,500 years ago. Varna-like concepts exist in other Indo-European societies, but only jati exists in India, and I believe that genetics will uncover jati-like stratification in the IVC over time. Jati may be one reason that the IVC seems archaeologically to be an “anarchistic” society in terms of governance and politics insofar as they can infer anything from material remains (there seem to be no grand public buildings as in Mesopatamia or Egypt).
But, today, in 2022, the jati-varna system is a problem for India. In particular, I think the reservation system is socially toxic and economically inefficient. Because I have libertarian conservative viewpoints, I have always opposed caste-based reservations, just as I oppose affirmative action in the USA. This has little to do with empirical or utilitarian calculus and everything to do with deontological principles. But, from a utilitarian perspective, I believe that reservations result in the misallocation of talent, as well as emigration.
How to fix this problem? The genetics indicates endogamy rates of 99% or less for possibly a thousand years or more. Today, the jati-varna endogamy rate is lower. Perhaps 95% is the high bound from the estimates I’ve seen. This means within several centuries jati-varna as we understand it will not be viable. The rate of genetic/social/cultural exchange will be too high to maintain traditional solidities. This will not mean that all castes will disappear; some will likely persist, but many societies have endogamous minorities. The way India is unique is that it is a whole civilization that is built around endogamous minorities. This does not scale as well to a modern economy and unitary society, and it is cannot persist if current social trends continue.
This problem will “naturally” take care of itself in both India and Pakistan (two countries where endogamous communities are ubiquitous), but, there are possible social and cultural movements that can accelerate or retard this process. The transformation of Hinduism into a more cohesive and confessional religion will probably be part of this. Like jati-varna, Hinduism’s strength was its fractious decentralization, as it absorbed and flexed in various directions to maintain its integrity in the face of proselytization. But in the world of 2022, the strategies of survival and persistence in the face of five hundred years of Muslim domination (in North India) are not appropriate; cultural involution and retreat simply invite defeat. The extremely diverse and almost contradictory nature of Hinduism allowed it to be a catchall system that integrated many jati groups with idiosyncratic beliefs and customs. The two reinforced each other as parallel institutions. Arguably, the weakness of jati will be the weakness of Hinduism unless the latter evolves and changes. One primary reason that non-Hindus never convert to the religion is that conversion still puts one outside of the jati-varna social networks of other Hindus while ostracizing oneself from one’s birth community.
Of course, some Hindus like the system the way it is. Some of these go by the term “trads,” but these types simply say out loud what the revealed preference shows is the majority viewpoint of most Hindus in India. What do they worry about? Higher-status groups do not want to become lower-status. Also, some high-caste Hindus believe they are more beautiful (lighter-skinned) and intelligent than lower-caste Hindus, and they do not want to dilute their human capital advantage. Objectively, it seems clear that many high-caste Hindus are indeed lighter-skinned and have facial features considered more beautiful than that of other Indian castes (I’m talking about Indian preferences on the whole). Additionally, whatever you may think about the heritability of intelligence, this is also certainly a possibility for differences between the groups.
But there doesn’t need to be such a great concern. Most societies have intelligent and beautiful subgroups, but they are not restricted to a particular social or political element. Restricting these traits to a particular social and political group causes problems, as you can see in India. The reality is there are beautiful/handsome and intelligent Dalits, so why not marry them if you are a Brahmin? These characteristics will persist, and the upside is that the social divisions between the jatis will diminish, and India can have a cultural matrix that’s more amenable to economic growth and individual liberty.
As someone with a conservative bent, there are natural hierarchies and status differences in any society. This is normal, and total leveling will never be possible, nor should we even aspire to it. Difference is worth appreciating. But the system of jati-varna in India as it is operationalized today is not conducive to human flourishing because it retards the development of broader social and cultural institutions that allow for national collective action. This is not abstract. China is a perfect example of a society with class status, but never has it had jati-like endogamy. Radically different dialect groups, like Hakka and Cantonese, freely intermarry with minimal conflict or controversy, so long as socioeconomic status is this. This is the future. You can delay it or ride the tiger.
thanks for the view, will wait for sunday to say something coherent.
genetics will uncover jati-like stratification in the IVC over time. Jati may be one reason that the IVC seems archaeologically to be an “anarchistic” society in terms of governance
I like to think that the early to medieval Sinhalese society and kingdoms reflected the IVC and pre IVC society. Egalitarianism, and absence of “no grand public buildings or palaces”. Even the Dagobas are not all that huge, specially compared with the huge temples in South India.
Some aspects of caste seem have been introduced with increasing Hindu South Indian invasions in the 10th century and destruction of the Sinhalese kingdoms (RajaRata) in North and North Central Sri Lanka. However, it was more a class thing and not as a rigid as in Hindu society. Most probably because of the absence of a Brahmin caste and not being part of Buddhism.
.
Before solutions, we need at least 2/3 majority on objectives. Given the history of endogamous and stratified castes, I propose the following objectives of any affirmative system:-
1. Preserve genetic and cultural diversity in historical proportions. This applies to all paternal and maternal haplo groups. By preserve I mean their number should not go below a certain viable number and percentage. TBC I don’t mean to preserve paternal and maternal group pairings.
Potential solutions:-
1. Instead of bucketing people on their caste, use a multi variable index to determine a person’s inherent appetite to improve themselves. This index can take into account parents, grandparents education, income and wealth levels in to account.
Intercaste marriages will diminish genetic signatures of caste, but genetic signatures are not super important in the everyday working of caste in India.
I think the salience of caste in Indian politics is rapidly decreasing, and with it, caste’s salience in society. That 95% is going to decrease to 70% and below very rapidly, especially in urban areas.
“Intercaste marriages will diminish genetic signatures of caste, but genetic signatures are not super important in the everyday working of caste in India.”
It’s not about genetic signatures, it’s about the organic sense of community which will not exist in a collective of endogamous groups. Think about how Ashkenazi Jews in Europe consider themselves (and are considered by others) distinct from neighboring non-Jewish Europeans. In India, everybody belongs to an Ashkenazi Jew-like tiny endogamous group.
This is why we will never be China, as David Reich says we are not one big population but many small ones. UC nationalists who ignore this will only be disappointed by the reality of India. Between trads and DMK types like me, Hindutva will collapse spectacularly and Indians will eventually find more organic forms of community than this artificial colonial-legacy imposition that is the Indian Republic.
Curious about your handle.
Do DMK types consider themselves non-Hindus or did you convert out of Hinduism.
That you are even asking this question to a Dravidian surprises me.
Lol community breaks too.
My cousins in India now don’t know their neighbors. Some of their friends send their parents to nursing homes. They have married out of caste and some out of religion. Their friend networks are more based on their professions and hobbies.
Many young Indian people bond more around K pop than their caste. I think, in terms of urban spaces, caste has more relevanve in places like Surrey, BC than it does in some urban Indian spaces.
And? Many whites in America have black friends, and vice versa. They work together, some of them live in the same neighborhoods, many of their kids go to the same schools, they both listen to hip-hop and rap and watch the NFL and the NBA, they both call themselves American. They occasionally even intermarry!
No serious anthropologist/social scientist would say that white and black Americans are the same people, though. Same logic applies to different castes on the subcontinent.
No serious anthropologist/social scientist would say that white and black Americans are the same people, though. Same logic applies to different castes on the subcontinent.
at current rates blacks will disappear into whites in a few centuries. black white endogamy in fact was NEVER as extreme as in India (blacks at least). the best analogy is with Ashkenazi jews btwn 1200 and 1800
> “Additionally, whatever you may think about the heritability of intelligence, this is also certainly a possibility for differences between the groups.”
I have seen many Indians online claiming that Brahmins were historically selectively bred for intelligence. But I have seen no evidence or source for such claims. Many online Brahmins(just like other online Indians) behave particularly stupid.
While it is certainly possible that some groups have higher percentage of smarter people, I wonder if Brahmins/certain groups were really selectively bred for intelligence.
I am surprised to hear about this claim. Would you be so kind as to provide some reference to such claims, for academic purposes obviously.
The way I think about this imagine in 2022 group of American doctors, a group of American janitors, plumbers, Uber drivers etc. That only intermarry each other and didregard race within their occupational guild based biradari / jati / brotherhood
Fast forward 1500 years of guild brotherhood endogamy.
All the guild brotherhoods would have different proportions of racial ancestry.
If the different regions of America were more divided there would be regional guilds and ancestral variations etc.
Someone mentioned to me that african tribes in some places will have even greater genetic diversity / endogamy in a single region than indian / pakistani castes / tribes.
For eg. hutu, tutsi, twa genetic difference and endogamy very high in Rwanda
Is this accurate ?
There’s nothing that can be done. Government cannot interfere with endogamy.
Neither can families. You see some significant breakdown throughout India. And even a modest out marriage rate destroys endogamy.
Based on the current intermarriage rates and social trends, the more likely outcome is that new jatis will be created, certain castes may consolidate, etc.
Slight nit-pick: “The genetics indicates endogamy rates of 99% or less” I think you mean “more”.
The ivc could have heirarchical model with a pure priest class on top and impure shudra class at the bottom. The upper citadel was ivc grand building with ritual significance.
Do you think that’s why some groups in Sindh eg. Lohanas have very little AASI, despite living around AASI people for millennia?
I am not well versed in genetics. I am just guessing about IVC social structure. Shudras are held in contempt and associated with impurity in vedic era texts.
I don’t think any group has “very little” aasi. Indus DNA itself has like 30%. But relatively less sure. There could have been caste in IVC.
lohanas have less AASI bc they’re likely descended from a settler pop similar in genetics to khatris that came from multan/punjab, hence why the similar autosomal profile.
Well, even among S Indians, iranic related IVC ancestry tends to be high compared to aasi in mid castes vs. lower castes.
That being said, status abd historical oppression isn’t about strict ratio on that cline, geography agnostic.
Geography plays a massive role. A landed reddy and a Tamil Brahmin may be equally or more aasi than a Punjabi chamar.
But historic power doesn’t work out so cleanly. There are a lot more nuances too. Banias haven’t exactly been historically oppressed, yet are a fair bit aasi, especially in gangetic plains.
Even in IVC, Geography likely mattered. Patels and Reddys are on the more AASI end of IVC civilization, but Patels at least are on the eastern edge. Was this a function of status? Geography? Both? Neither? At this point, we need more data.
Regardless, things change. No one would say Marathas are “muh oppressed” in recent history. But their DNA is similar to that of many NW dalit groups, in terms of 3 component combo.
There is a tendency of thinking that the change happening around the observer is inevitable, and maybe observers 3500 years ago who saw Indo-Aryans come in with a non-jati social system could have plausibly thought the same way about jati being eroded in what was then the future, but that didn’t pan out, did it? Other countries don’t work in a jati manner, as you said with your example of the Chinese but the Chinese never had something like that to begin with. So I wouldn’t take a change towards something like that for granted. I suspect there would be a shift in the norm, but that norm won’t go so far as to replace jati with class at least in India. If it could survive mass migrations and language changes, it has a decent chance of surviving through the current era. As for human flourishing, well, mass society model from the neolithic onward is probably not ideal either for the average person’s flourishing (depending on what you accept the definition of flourishing as) and yet it won out.
The salience of jati was amplified soon after independence due to democratic upsurges, and castes being a natural and easy conduit for some basic political organization. The more recent political record in India shows the limitations of caste as a basis for organized political activity.
Earlier, in the colonial era, jati came to be emphasized due to British recruitment policies, and this continued into the modern era with reservations.
But caste was not a major political or even cultural entity, earlier, even if it was propagated through endogamy. Caste massacres, serious and violent caste conflicts show up only in recent Indian history. Those incidents were sporadic and quickly prevented from reoccuring.
But caste was not a major political or even cultural entity, earlier, even if it was propagated through endogamy.
no. if endogamy rates are more than 99%, then it’s a massive social cultural and political phenomenon.
// no. if endogamy rates are more than 99%, then it’s a massive social cultural and political phenomenon. //
Cultural yes, political – needs a proper debate.
“Earlier, in the colonial era, jati came to be emphasized due to British recruitment policies…”
a whole lot of crap about caste can be traced to a single colonial administrator, HH Risley. He, through his ethnographic survey of india, and his work as a census commissioner of 1901 census of india essentially laid down the framework of caste as we understand it.
he had preconceived notions of castes having a racial basis, and he actually went about measuring people’s noses and heads to prove his pseudo-scientific theories. to determine the hierarchy among castes, he went about interviewing people about the then-prevalent customs dictating inter-caste relations.
the problem with these customs dictating inter-caste relations was that they were highly local, sometimes varying from village to village, and highly transient. moreover, the mechanism was ridiculously unreliable because people naturally tended to declare their own caste superior to their neighbors and trade rivals . however dubious these measures were, they formed the basis of colonial states official understanding of castes, and informed their decisions regarding military and civil recruitment.
castes of course existed before the british, but caste identities were quite fluid. also, there was no totem pole of caste hierarchy where each caste had a fixed place. most castes, especially the agrarian an artisan castes existed in a flat space, with each one declaring themselves superior to their neighbors, and access to power being the ultimate arbiter.
The hierarchy of jatis may have been fluid, their composition however doesn’t seem to have been based on genetic studies.
too much is being made out of castes having a genetic basis without sufficient evidence.
varna endogamy probably has deep roots in history. not sure if caste (jati) endogamy is equally deep seated. i have seen genetic plots on this blog showing various castes forming distinct clusters. it appears to me that most clusters show boundaries between castes across different varnas rather than castes within the same varna.
empirically too, it makes sense that the endogamy within the castes of the same varna is of recent origins. in my village, there are dozens of artisan castes like kumhars (potters), suthars (carpenters), lohars (blacksmiths) etc. they live next door to each other, look similar and follow similar customs. it is hard to believe they have been existing as strictly endogamous units for 1000+ years.
@Scorpion eater
>too much is being made out of castes having a genetic basis without sufficient evidence.
There is enough evidence to say that very many castes that exist today have not mixed with one another. So if there is fluidity, that somehow encompasses not mixing. Think more like small square blocks in a pattern moving without dissolving into one another as opposed to a well mixed tank situation.
>it is hard to believe they have been existing as strictly endogamous units for 1000+ years.
The evidence on that is pretty clear, the issue is more with your incredulity. It seems your experience isn’t representative of the bigger picture. That is not unexpected for something as complicated as caste, but it does not warrant rejecting the data in favor of your anecdotes.
Violence is not needed when dealing with an obedient underclass which has been mollified by graded privileges. This is the whole point of varna-jati, the system has broad social legitimacy because every layer of the system wishes to maintain the privileges it is currently granted.
Even in America during Jim Crow lynchings of blacks were actually relatively rare because most blacks got the message. In India even this was not needed because all jatis looked to maintain the system and their own social and marital networks.
I mean you need a pretty low outmarriage rate to sustain it. That is breaking pretty fast.
We also live in an unprecedented era of global change. IMO, using past parameters stringently likely won’t yield the most predictive models for stuff like this.
There is mass cultural homegenization with the interconnectivity of the world. People are constantly moving far from families. Women are getting more educated and working. People are picking their own partners and mixing more and more. Sure, caste will die a slow death. But it is dying. And it doesn’t take much outmarriage rate to make the genetics behind it far less salient.
The social structures itself will take a bit of time. Some core will stick to it. But every family will have members who won’t as this rate. Maybe even most nuclear families.
>I mean you need a pretty low outmarriage rate to sustain it. That is breaking pretty fast.
15% to 20% steppe in North India on average has to be from a pretty high outmarriage rate as well, but if jati on an abstract non-specific level is from pre-Indo-Aryan times, then it survived that.
>We also live in an unprecedented era of global change. IMO, using past parameters stringently likely won’t yield the most predictive models for stuff like this.
Things aren’t the same now, yes, but how do you know that India itself will change in a way it hasn’t in the last 5,000 years (or more).
> There is mass cultural homegenization with the interconnectivity of the world. People are constantly moving far from families. Women are getting more educated and working. People are picking their own partners and mixing more and more. Sure, caste will die a slow death. But it is dying. And it doesn’t take much outmarriage rate to make the genetics behind it far less salient.
I do think there will be a new norm in India, but if the pre-Indo-Aryan jati hypothesis is true, I don’t think this new norm will overturn jati.
This projection of a massive change can happen if Jati isn’t really as old as some hypothesize it to be, maybe it is only 2,000 years old. And these 5,000+ year old claims being wishful thinking on part of continuity. In that case, I can see a complete change happening. However if someone holds to the super old jati hypothesis and thinks it will get overturned in the modern era as what your projections indicate, then the single most continuous aspect of India would be overturned, and everything is up for grabs. Logically speaking, if the most enduring aspect of India can change like that then perhaps there will be no India left at all in the time jati is gone since the change is strong enough to erode the super old aspect. Just a logical conclusion if jati is truly as super old as some think it is.
what a neo-reactionary writeup. it argues for breaking the bonds of caste, only to replace it with something even more ludicrous – demarcations based on physical beauty and fairness of the skin!
so upper castes should consider marrying into the lower castes, presumably because they also have fair and lovely people. by implication, if a group doesn’t have beautiful people they are not worthy of mixing your blood with!
@Scorpion Eater
I felt the same way about this piece. But Razib disclaims at the beginning with a deontological basis.
Razib’s prescription is not very different from Savarkar, Ambedkar or Periyar. All of them construed jati/varna as an elitist imposition on society with very little temporal benefits.
In reality, the biggest proponents of jati/varna in the constitutional frameworks are the lowest jatis today. They seek a sound refuge from the vagaries and assaults of the industrial society.
Every mid-level American manager I have met on their visit to India would only have one request at the end – a list of generic medicines to be shopped before the flight home. The jati filled society has evolved better medico-legal protections for the marginalized than the one without!
Today jatis in India are the primary channel of political mobilisation for over 60% of Indian society.
Every form of superior public good that the the Indian state has produced is the outcome of lower jati mobilization and their impact on law making. Be it generic drug laws or electronic voting machines or money transfer mechanisms.
well said, it’s just used to beat up and milk the most productive jatis by dominant kulak castes who are in cahoots with a combination of dalits/tribals/muslims or all 3 usually.
Archeologists who label ivc as anarchist are mostly politically motivated activist scholars. Most unbiased academics think there was probably heterogeneity mixed with heirarchy in ivc.
Ideology of ritual purification seems prevalent in near eastern societies of the time that ivc traded with.
I take more of an issue with identification with egalitarianism than anarchy. Because people don’t find the kind of differentiation they are used to seeing, they jump to an egalitarian conclusion. It would be one thing to say they might have been more egalitarian in comparison to others in terms of wealth gap per person, but that is a comparison only. There was still likely a wealth gap of some kind.
The exact way it was administered is unknown, it could have been a network of independent settlements that worked with one another, whereby the whole is created by these sums. Or maybe it was a single large thing spread over different regions and each settlement in its own region differed only as a response to the environment around it but still foremostly being a part of a whole.
If status is accorded according to purity than wealth is of secondary importance. In vedic times, shudras were excluded from ritual participation and rendered impure.
There is archeological evidence of segregation and wealth inequality in ivc which the marxist-anarchist sympathising archeologists downplay.
>There is archeological evidence of segregation and wealth inequality in ivc which the marxist-anarchist sympathising archeologists downplay.
I know. That is what bothers me- there is obviously difference in the goods of the burials and also how well made different burial are. Some aren’t far from being ditches, while others took a lot more care and effort to build. And yet people (like the ones you listed) ignore this stuff.
The point about purity jives well with a hypothesis (or similar group of hypotheses) that I and other people have put out earlier: instead of a very small percentage of the population owning much/most of the wealth, IF a smallish but non-trivial minority (or multiple such minorities) had access to more wealth than others and this extra wealth was spread out per capita, then the difference instead of being thousands of times greater, could just be maybe ten times greater and it wouldn’t be recognizable if we hold Egyptian and Mesopotamian levels of inequality as the one and only gold standard.
My point is very simple, all actions come from the locus of asabiyyah/kokutai. What is that?. Without that, everything else is delusion. It has to be community built around temples/schools/services etc as j saideepak argues. If that happens, fine, if not, either everything breaks down or it wont happen. All societies are social engineered and requires social engineering, some people either get this or they are stupid. Like ugra, who believes in caste mobilisation but cries when it gets used for divide and rule or gets turned on tambrams or other such ways.
My solution is, incentives. 10% quota across the country, create a new IC constituency. With asabiya built around temples, education /services complex. It should have been put inplace since Indpendence. That it has not happened shows low iq of Indian leaders as a whole.
Every other country/strategist with brains realize that getting rid of divisions that get exploited is something one should do. except for idiots and there are many. who talk endlessly of divide and rule of british of 200 yrs of colonialism and still say, its all great, lets keep it going.
As to other person talking about “enduring feature of India”, many philosophies/ religions exist.
My guiding principle is this, and it worked on some truly deplorable minds. Turn your idea into game theoretic based argument first .Else, dont talk.
@phyecho1
Stop the dumb ad-hominem.
Today the highest intensity of jati mobilization occurs in subalterns, OBCs and EWS.
….and the highest number of anti-caste rhetoric occurs among forward castes, NRIs and the rich.
What do you think is going on?
https://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/2022/dec/08/jharkhand-labour-minister-faces-social-boycott-as-son-set-to-wed-outside-tribe-2526110.amp
UCs don’t need to mobilize based on jati because Hindutva is already designed to serve UC interests.
the Dravidian movements serve interest of IVC heavy landlord castes at the expense of AASI heavy castes.
Dravidian Brahmins are irrelevant since they are only 1% of the population, compared to 20% in some North Indian states
Whatever the faults of the DMK, going over to the BJP instead is nuts. Like running away from a garter snake into the nest of a cobra.
Dravidian movement took off in TN because TamBrahms were riding high under the British and in the immediate post-independence era. It was not needed in other South Indian states.
DMK is a sort of southern Hindutva, a Dravidatva as it were.
The main difference seems to be:
Hindutva – the Muslim is the boogeyman,
Dravidatva – the boogeyman is Hindi speakers and Dravidian Brahmins (who are descendants of Hindi speakers per narrative)
For all the claims about Tambrahm oppression, they are less than 1% of the Tamil population and irrelevant and lack the street power to oppress a mosquito.
The completely artificial “unified Dravidian identity” (which as you mentioned non-Tamils like Kannadas and others don’t care about at all), perpetuates the Vellalar and other savarna interests over those of the tribal and dalit population of Tamil Nadu.
Any group that is able to counter this should be considered by SC/ST Tamils as a potential ally in their struggle for equality.
If I want to ad hominem you , I would do a better job.Everyone here would do a better job. I am pointing to the contradiction in your views. And yes to your case. It is not just a top down thing, as people gain more power, it is where it would be going.And it would be ripe even more for divide and rule, the fractures being exploited as well. What matters is therefore to make good incentives to social engineer the society before these things start kick in.In fact what people should worry is that, as power is gained, it might easily go the TN way, after all, it takes few disputes and groups can justify being bad etc by pointing to history /revenge etc. It can easily go that way to. And given time being all of entire future, few bad apples on either side, few disputes and the whole thing can be used to rouse people against each other.
Probabilistically, it is a bad arangement. I am talking mathematically. You have nothing much to contribute by reason. Because, on this issue, you stopped reasoning altogether.
The entire crux of this debate centers on this bit mentioned by Razib,
Meaning, what is the socio-political timeline acceptable to Indian people and the Indian State to reach a point where the “Degree” of this issue is acceptable & cons manageable.
Currently, both Indian society & State has chosen the, Time will take care of it Approach. Which is cowardly and reflective of lack of State capacity and backwardness of Society itself to generate a faster pace of internal Revolution.
This is an issue which can be fixed within 2 generations (less than 50 years).
To me, the fastest solution possible is Inter-Caste marriage on a massive scale (which would require massive State Incentives programs for such unions, over the top excessive incentives, for the Union and their immediate Children only to that generation -not to grandchildren- hence it not requiring more than 2 generations).
In practical economic terms, this will impart these households wealth indicators running into Crore’s in today’s value. That is enough, no one who is at that socio-economic level shall require Reservation for economic reasons.
For social and political angle, the Inter-caste mixing also works. Thus this works on all vectors.
Caste/Jati system as Razib mentions is not a generic Class type system which exists in nearly all societies and will in India even when Caste is gone. Caste is a Blood/Lineage based system & the only way to break it is by breaking the Blood bonds. That happens with just 1 Inter-caste Child in 1 generation itself.
Being rich and educated doesn’t eradicate Blood bonds. Blood is thinker than water and all that is not just trivial words, they have real tangible human condition affects on driving societies/culture.
And the only way to break Blood bonds is by appealing to even more powerful Biological drive, Base Self Interest.
The most fundamentalist of so called “Trads” will shiver at the knees when they are faced with making a choice which results in their families thriving or sticking to some ancient endogamic network for the sake of being part of it.
This is a statistical exercise. It is irrelevant to change 100% of India, we just need enough dominant proportion to be inter-caste to form a new group which will be largest, rest will take care of itself.
The best cycles in South Asian history happened when such mass mixing of people’s happened. In fact even in other Civilizations, the best cycles were post mass people-mixing phases.
So it all becomes a question of what is the timeline acceptable to you, 50-60 years or 200-400 years. Because tenets of Hinduism is a meme (original definition), it will fight to survive, it will not just go away on it’s own simply because it’s 21st century. It doesn’t care what century it is, its primary drive is survival.
“Being rich and educated doesn’t eradicate Blood bonds. Blood is thinker than water and all that is not just trivial words, they have real tangible human condition affects on driving societies/culture.”
Word!
The Issues with ‘Caste’ debate is that it has many ‘frameworks / presumptions’ compounded by political history since subcontinent’s freedom.
To be fair i mostly agree with the post but there are some essential points which gets missed due to how Varna-Jati ques. has been framed academically for political purposes.
For e.g. – While Razib correctly points out ‘trads’ {fewer & inconsequential esp. in modern politics} but forgets the role of incentive modern Identity politics played in forging what political scientists have recognized as ‘body politic’. Identity politics thrives because modern political frameworks define & sustain ‘Identities’.
Wrong incentives allowing politicians to further exabrate social divide & people {reliant upon collective identities to negotiate with state} follow through as they get more & more fragmented over time {colonizers gave the matchbox & Indians in their zeal are burning all social possibilities to the ground} –
https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Coimbatore/in-a-dalit-hamlet-in-krishnagiri-a-kangaroo-court-undermines-individuals-right-to-love/article66226658.ece
What OP missed is this –
// there are natural hierarchies and status differences in any society. This is normal, and total leveling will never be possible, nor should we even aspire to it. Difference is worth appreciating. But the system of jati-varna in India as it is operationalized today is not conducive to human flourishing because it retards the development of broader social and cultural institutions that allow for national collective action. This is not abstract. //
This is precisely why Caste debate is as it is because no anti-caste activist {just like all SJW’s who thrive on raising stakes in a conflict} will agree with the above ‘quoted’ formulation.
——————————————————————-
I proposed the following {Feb 2021} as a way to compare Identity formulation across time in subcontinent’s history & how diff. identity understandings created diff. framework of rights, laws etc. –
What were the modes of recognizing difference in subcontinent historically ?
Indians historically recognized any community via 3 differential axis –
1. Spatial position – Trushkas, Yavanas etc.
2. Professions
3. Language & other cultural differences
Politics at it’s core is all about acknowledging difference which allows us to see how differently politics has evolved in different times in subcontinent.
Reference & related material including post where i shared above idea – https://twitter.com/deep007_bond007/status/1439141282249465858
“Currently, both Indian society & State has chosen the, Time will take care of it Approach. Which is cowardly and reflective of lack of State capacity and backwardness of Society itself to generate a faster pace of internal Revolution.”
This!
// “Currently, both Indian society & State has chosen the, Time will take care of it Approach. Which is cowardly and reflective of lack of State capacity and backwardness of Society itself to generate a faster pace of internal Revolution.” //
Exactly opposite interpretation to the one i am suggesting. Difference lies in how modern politics started in West Vs India –
West –
Individuality took primacy as Western elites wanted to find solutions to the uprisings & collectivist struggles, state engages with Individual as this framework emerged from negotiation b/w elites & commoners of same societies.
India –
Politics started with collective identities esp. since 1920’s, after indepence we made a hotpotch of State governance structure as per the convienience of elites where they pick as per their ideological convienience which framework to invoke ‘collectivist’ or ‘individualist’.
In India elites negotiated with ‘foreign’ elites for freedom whose understanding of Indian society took precedence in name of ‘social questions’ & they were able to impose their framework in former colonies so as to maintain their hegemony even after independence of former colonies.
Thus issue is Hindus felt that caste issue can be solved from within Hindus while caste activist will invoke ‘Social Justice’ framework as a means of resolution as both are operating with diff. frameworks.
These differences are the reasons for different societies & politics in different regions {more than religion}.
It is strange that commentators keep emphasizing caste in modern India, when every conceivable survey indicates that caste’s importance in all kinds of decision making is diminishing rapidly.
See question 15 (part vii) here, voters in Punjab, a state with high supposedly high levels of caste consciousness do not indicate any preference for election candidates based on caste.
https://www.lokniti.org/media/PDF-upload/1652936933_9468000_download_report.pdf
You will see the same numbers for any state in India.
The BJP, more than any party in India, understands that caste is an atavism in modern India’s society, not its engine. People continue caste based choices (marriage, elections) because that was the default, but they shift away at the first opportunity.
It is just that until recently limited economic change implied very few opportunities for social change.
Nice rayta cope. All that is happening is people are emulating elite preferences in a polity which previously lacked this degree of centralization of power and cultural cohesion (artificially engineered in modern India by UC hegemony). In some ways UCs are more powerful now than they have ever been.
This is a very different thing from the collapse of the underlying caste structure as such.
“People continue caste based choices (marriage, elections) because that was the default, but they shift away at the first opportunity.”
There is no evidence that people are shifting away from the jaativaadi arranged marriage system.
“There is no evidence that people are shifting away from the jaativaadi arranged marriage system.”
Lots of evidence.
http://epc2010.eaps.nl/papers/100157
Most states are around 15% out marriage in 2010, which is much more than the <1% we see in genetic data and the trend seems clear.
Weirdly Tamil Nadu has a very low out marriage rate according to this data, any thoughts on why this might be ?
because periar thought and dravidian movement is just anti brahmin and getting power to the middle castes, nothing more. there are more caste based parties in dravida nadu than anywhere else.honour killings are more.
The problem for most caste groups in India is that they are simply too small, and most dont carry any great prestige/pedigree outside of a very local area. Nobody in Haryana cares that you are a Reddy or a Vellalar or a Nair. Nobody in TN cares that you are a Jat or Ahir.
The only castes that do carry genuine social capital transferable to the modern era (business skills and network for example) are not numerous.
On the contrary, this is ex-Hindu cope. Modi is one of the most powerful and popular PMs on par with Nehru and IG. If he wins 2024, then he might as well eclipse them. Reminder he is OBC. This while delivering on both economy and welfare. MH, KA, GJ and MP all have OBC CMs. Central cabinet also has highest representation of non-UCs. The Padma awards have been democratized to recognize so far forgotten subaltern faces. OBCs and Dalits have been given all the opportunities possible. Time for them to rise up to the occasion.
Ex-Hindus can either choose to take the olive branch of Ghar wapsi or keep coping harder.
I’m not sure how exactly you addressed anything I said. I never denied that some brainwashed fools are joining the Hindutva camp as part of their emulation of UCs. This doesn’t mean Hindutva is erasing caste distinctions, lol.
But, sure, keep choking on that Brahmin-Baniya cock because “Muzzies bad”.
I was addressing your point that Hindutva is a vehicle for UC hegemony. Re caste structure, inter caste marriages have started and should dissolve caste structure eventually. But the pace will be discussed and decided within the Hindu community. Outsiders can’t.
The fact that you did not stop after asking for clarification and responded with abuse shows you lost your argument. Cope harder 🙂
Regards
Sachin
And, for the record, I don’t like Islam either, just despise braindead bootlickers like you who miss the forest for the trees.
No matter what Modi does, in terms of legacy Nehru>Indira>Modi.
Indira Gandhi forcibly sterilized millions of men. Noting Modi can do can match up to Indira’s excesses.
I have been told this (now hilarious and impossible to believe) story about a Bihari family-friend (who I know btw). He was going to some government recruitment exam in 1970s. He was caught travelling in train without ticket and put in railway jail. In order to fulfill the sterilization quota the government folks took him and dozens other from the lockup to hospital for forced vasectomy . And this to a unmarried man in his early 20s! He escaped with some Indian theatrics, region-caste masala, and bribe.
Compared to Indira, Modi is a mahatma.
My liking is also in that order.
– Indira actually went to war. Whereas today we have some felled trees in Balakot. (I’m not war-mongering here)
– Indira showed the middle-finger to the world and start nuke program. Today we show the middle-finger to the world to buy cheap oil from Russia.
If Modi is mahatma, Indira is Durga.
I think Modi would be what Reagan was for US conservatives, in terms of legacy. Reagan made Republicans somewhat electable and honorable. Pushing the overtone window to the right. Something which Vajpayee wasn’t able to do. Reagan tenure also saw the mushrooming of various conservative thinktanks and ‘Reagan view’ in terms of economic polices and foreign policy. We see the same in India with mushrooming of non-left writers and academics, as well as economic policy different from the Congress/Left.
Add to that the sheer decimation of the opposition (Congress/Democrats) during the Reagan/Modi 2 terms. Jimmy Carter also seems like a combo of Manmohan and Rahul Gandhi. Well intentioned, mild mannered but essentially politically toothless.
Naveen and Bhimrao,
IG gets full credit for 71 and BD. I wouldn’t quibble on the relative ranking.
But keep in mind that PB problem started immediately after that and I think she mishandled it. I prefer pragmatic retreat rather rush headlong into blunder.
Modi has managed to keep all internal hotspots calm as these are frankly distractions from the bigger prize I.e. economic growth and defense preparedness + indigenous production.
He is more Patel 2.0.
To quote JS:- “even the Pakistani don’t equate themselves with us”. Bit early but we have never been closer to that goal than before.
My Dravidian friends tell me that even Lanka problem started during Indira’s time. It just blew up (literally) on his son’s tenure though.
Naveen,
In both good and bad extremes, Modi is no match for Indira.
I am not talking about achievements. I am talking about abuse of power. Indira, the narcissist, a product of nepotism and dirty-politics came the closest to destroying this country during Emergency. She and her bitch daughter in law Maneka Gandhi got sex scandal pictures of the son of her (dalit btw) rival Jagjivan Ram published in national magazines.
No matter how low Modi stoops, he can never fall to Indira’s level.
Saurav,
Modi = Indian Raegan appears to be a very good theory. I would defer to the folks better read in American history here to do a peer review.
Bhumiputra,
Khalistan/Kashmir always starts because Pakistan backs it. India must keep Pakistan ‘busy’. A snake will never become a dog. Put their ass to the flame.
// It is strange that commentators keep emphasizing caste in modern India, when every conceivable survey indicates that caste’s importance in all kinds of decision making is diminishing rapidly. //
While some features of caste may have been stable but it was never an organized system historically so every survey can be twisted either way by picking & choosing features where caste salience is increasing as well as decreasing.
– Nobody discusses Jajmani aka village production & distribution system, janeu {except maybe brahmins} in case of UC etc. anymore.
– People now try to learn about caste of employee/worker as a means of self preservation because of laws like Sc/St act i.e. Scheduled Caste and Scheduled Tribe (Prevention of Atrocities) Act, 1989 which then is presented as a proof of ‘caste prejudice’ instead of a biased law causing increased caste salience.
America has bad public transport outside of NYC. One can have good motorways and good public transport. The two aren’t mutually exclusive. Actually they both spread things out together, so neither entity is overcrowded. Germany has a good model.
caste will survive. the children of mixed caste marriages will take the father’s caste. Pankaja munde is obc and chirag paswan a dalit inspite of their brahmin mothers.
Only difference is that the daughters from such unions are getting brahmin bridegrooms now. eventually their children will brahmins.
// the children of mixed caste marriages will take the father’s caste. Pankaja munde is obc and chirag paswan a dalit inspite of their brahmin mothers. //
Exactly, it will survive because it was put into political core at independence {based on colonial & local logics} thus any idea that exogamy will reduce it does not cut ice & both sides know it.
Those who claim oppression want to preserve community’s access to ‘affirmative actions’ while so called casteless or Upper castes are constantly abused by them in the name of ‘social justice’ thus leaving no side any incentive to reconcile their differences with each other.
Lol why would an OBC like me want a Jatt or Rajput kid to get a college seat whose parents would honor kill me for marrying their daughter rather than someone from my own caste who could be my future brother-in-law/sister-in-law? It’s just basic self-interest, as long as resources are kept within the caste through endogamy, I want limited resources to go to my caste members rather than some to random riff-raff on the street whose welfare provides me and my blood relatives with zero plausible benefits.
This is not a counter argument on this debate for multiple reasons.
1) From the State perspective it doesn’t matter if it’s a girl or boy. Inter-Caste massive incentives making that mixed person economically well off is justification enough to end Reservation for their line forever. State can’t be accused, held hostage (socially or Politically). This is good for the State.
2) Patriarchy is not Biological in absolute. It’s socio-cultural calibrated in its degree. Familial Blood bonds have a higher hierarchy because it runs through ANY parent across any specific cultural matrix (since not literally ever human society was patriarchal and neither are literally every single one of todays developed ones so. There is no need to invoke Absoluteness here as a crutch).
3) The solution of massive Inter-Caste incentive program results in Economic upliftment as well. And this is among the things where social science actually lives up to the latter part of it’s term because that change actively results in reducing patriarchal degree in a society.
Women when given normalized levels of education, freedom of movement, security, financial backbone aren’t just going to be the same as they’ve been in South Asia for millenia.
Economic development changes this dynamic.
However Economic development doesn’t change Caste because the base cause of it has higher level biological driver, it can only be tempered by economic development, only to rear once something happens in society, which is guaranteed. Meaning it just delaying the inevitable.
4) Inter-Caste persons can be assigned the term General category in the interim because that is what they are or maybe some other name, doesn’t matter. The objective is to create a cohort which is plurality of Indian populace so it cuts across multiple vectors of reducing political leverage of caste groups, economic issues, representation, social people to people interaction.
It is an exercise of Statistics not perfection because it’s irrelevant to make 100% of India casteless, etc.
IF the timeline to resolve this is 200-300 years then India is doing just that.
Nothing needs to change. It’s already happening. The Caste meme (original meaning) will fight back in it’s own way and keep the declining curve from spiraling till in a few centuries the tipping point is reached and meme is defeated by the new social meme on this front.
IF the timeline is to resolve it in the shortest possible time (Peacefully) then the only and only way is State led Massive Over the Top excessive Incentives program to Inter-Caste Unions and their children to just 1 generation and then end Reservation in a staggered way (meaning it will slowly be applicable to fewer and fewer cohort/scale of population, i.e. Statistics is Supreme).
Bhim,
Re PB issue, PK itself is a pawn. Interesting that PB issue rose up in 72 when IN had a strong central government, subsided in 90s when we probably had weakest government and comes back up again after 2014.
This is not to say that there isn’t discontent on the ground or the PB-Poorbiya kerfuffle since 1840s.
@Bhumiputra: “But the pace will be discussed and decided within the Hindu community. Outsiders can’t.”
Lol even you know that those UCs that you constantly suck off will never accept you, that’s why you are coping with talk about “discussing the pace” of elimination of caste. Whatever bud, if you want to be friends with trad UCs that think of you as a slaveboy to be used and discarded at their will, be my guest.
Re “Outsiders can’t.”
Lol there is no Hindu asabiyya to talk of outsiders and insiders here, why don’t you go try marrying the daughter of one of your Rajput or Baniya RSS friends, then you will see who is an outsider and an insider lol.
The data posted by @sumit shows the rates of inter caste marriage with breakdown of when the girl is marrying someone of lower caste. This is backed by anecdotal data where quite a few cousins/friends have married tambrahm and puneri brahm girls.
But there is no point in arguing with someone who can’t lookup the data since they are busy self fellating.
Cope harder.
Lol one survey which has not been replicated anywhere else. Most reliable surveys show somewhere between 5-8% intercaste marriage. You’re not going to get me to give a shit about some bloody Mehtas or Iyengars or Aggarwals based on some their token acceptance of some honorary UCs, sorry not sorry.
Caste is the bedrock of Indian society, and it always will be until Hinduism itself is annihilated and UCs sidelined. In the meantime, my blood relatives directly benefit from reservation and lower-caste mobilization, so kindly go fuck yourself with your holier-than-thou “Hindu unity” nonsense.
Also I am 90% sure you are LARPing as an LC. Cope harder, Hindoo, I’m not a slaveboy to give up my self-interest for your delusional wet dreams of “Hindu Rashtra”.
Source on those surveys ?
And what issues does this one have methodologically aside from the data not conforming to your personal biases.
‘Lol there is no Hindu asabiyya’
Just because there is no Hindu asabiyya in Dravidian/Less Hindu areas, does not mean there is no Hindu asabiyya in Northen lands.
Its like saying there is no Dravidian asabiyya…
Ritual purity in Hinduism did lead to unnecessary conversions. Throw meat in a well, those that drank were excommunicated, had to embrace Islam. In Goa, bread in the well led to forced conversion to Christianity. Know families who were literally bifurcated due to this nonsense. Clearly these faultlines were exploited by both the Abrahamic faiths to their advantage, easy to force convert without violence if your own community disowns you. And the reluctance to bring back many who were so inclined back into the fold. I realize much of this is anecdotal, so just trying to understand in what way do you think jaati varna helped resist Islamization?
Razib,
Your thoughts on this study
https://mobile.twitter.com/PaoloShirasi/status/1602716207572033537
TLDR; more genetic diversity is correlated with lower educational attainment aka proxy iq.
Should we think of diversity like we think about salt and sugar in diet?
Malaysia with slightly more than 2Million ethnic Indians of primarily South Indian origins may be able to give an indication of India’s future trends. In the current 3rd Malaysian born generation, its quite common to see marriages between south indian Malayalee Nayars, Kongu Gounders, Reddys and Jaffna Tamil Vellalars. These groups are all primarily English speaking in the current generation. Similarly marriage between Telugu and Tamil dalit origin communities are also very common.However marriages between these two groups is less common and inter marriage with Chinese and Malays the least common. It seems that Malaysian Indian community is coalescing into 3 groups. One North Indian primarily Punjabi Jat group, one broadly upper caste South Indian and one dalit South Indian group. Assortative mating based on culture and class seems to be the driver
Steppe: aasi