American caste! (?)

By Razib Khan 288 Comments

On August 4th a new book is coming out, Caste: The Origins of Our Discontents. The author is a journalist who has published a substantial extract of the book at The New York Times Magazine, America’s Enduring Caste System: Our founding ideals promise liberty and equality for all. Our reality is an enduring racial hierarchy that has persisted for centuries:

Throughout human history, three caste systems have stood out. The lingering, millenniums-long caste system of India. The tragically accelerated, chilling and officially vanquished caste system of Nazi Germany. And the shape-shifting, unspoken, race-based caste pyramid in the United States. Each version relied on stigmatizing those deemed inferior to justify the dehumanization necessary to keep the lowest-ranked people at the bottom and to rationalize the protocols of enforcement. A caste system endures because it is often justified as divine will, originating from sacred text or the presumed laws of nature, reinforced throughout the culture and passed down through the generations.

When shared on Twitter even Left-Indians, normally sympathetic to Left-American journalists and their Weltanschauung, recoiled. My main comment is simple: write what you know. From the extract, the author does not seem to know enough about the Indian social system and history to make informative and illuminating comparisons to the United States.

Also, though I personally am not positively disposed toward caste, comparing it to Nazi Germany seems needlessly inflammatory.

I will note a few things

– The latest surveys suggest intercase marriages in India are now at 10%

– In America, 20% of the marriage partners of black Americans are not black

In 300 years about 20% of the ancestry of black Americans is now of European origin. In contrast, there are villages in Andhra Pradesh where people of different castes (jati) are genetically more distinct than Scandinavians are from Italians. David Reich’s group has an estimated < 1% intermarriage rate between the groups, with a rough crystallization of caste boundaries 1,500 years ago.

Caste: The Origins of Our Discontents probably had its conclusion prewritten. The argument is something added on later.

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288 Replies to “American caste! (?)”

  1. My Caste Discrimination Experiences:-

    Aunties when seeing Ragpickers, Garbage Man/Women using the word Chura/Chamar.

    My Paternal Aunt was not allowed to sit on the sofa (she sat down) when she visited the upper caste family in Village in Rajasthan. Their utensils were put aside.

    My Sister told me her Gym Owner told her that they don’t allow SC/ST to sit on sofa and also they(SC/ST) should not talk loudly with Jaats.

    Our Maid said that she don’t wash houses of “Chamars”.

    When we lived in Sonipat everytime people asked my Mum about asked or guessing what my mum Caste is?

    My best friend said that in some video ” Deepika Padukone ” looks like Chamar. I m like wtf.

    And now when my Sister tells me about ” Brahminism” i am silent i can’t say there Brahminism isn’t a term to put hatred towards Brahmins because she have experienced not direct taunts but indirect ones( behind the back) or people not knowing that my Family is Lower Caste because when they don’t know about your caste they talk shit or sometimes Good points about Caste Reservtions etc.

    THIS COMMENT IS NOT TO DEGRADE COMMUNITIES OR ANY INDIVIDUAL FOR THAT MATTER

      1. This is outside perspective and these occurences are not rare and not that common either but happens more when people don’t know your Caste. When they know they will not say or they will Censor them.

        1. Harshvardhan, have had similar experiences around brahmins who think i’m one of them as well as different types of north indians who assume i am the same. Its illuminating, to say the least. That said, my own people say all sorts of exclusivist things, so not trying to assert moral purity or whatever.

          1. I just put my thoughts out there.
            Everyone speaks ill about everyone behind there back.

    1. Indians like light skin, but it is unlikely that a fatter and lighter skinned “Behenji looking” woman will be preferred by an urban north Indian male over a more tanned, pretty and slim woman. Compare Dolly Bindra to Chitrangada Singh. Arranged marriage is a different thing. I’ve seen good looking guys/gals paired up with plain looking types.

    1. His comment was unnecessary because we were talking about some old Music Video of hers.

    2. I shouldn’t have made this comment about my friend part. He is still one of my good friend. He maybe don’t know better.

    3. Funny thing is that not too long ago, and maybe still… a fat unattractive but fair skinned woman was preferred to a slim attractive darker girl in many parts of India.

      Also not to mention all the punbjabi songs just straight up talking about light skin preference…. Soniye, Goriye, Jattiye, etc… like literally every song.

      Like there are dudes who would push aside Deepika for a Rosie O Donnell. SAD!

      1. Well Rosie does have one thing that Deepika doesn’t- a big head. Depending on who you ask they is seen as a good or a bad thing with very few in betweens.

      2. There’s nothing wrong with sohNiye.
        goriye / jattiye are colour / caste commentary.

        Personally I don’t think that colour / caste commentary of that nature is morally terrible per se. Maybe someone prefers goris / goras and that’s his / her choice. So who cares.

        I think context matters – if these preferences go along with social / economic discrimination in the society (which is indeed rampant in India!) – then these lyrics etc are not merely a function of neutral human choice but symptomatic of a deeper problem. However, one cannot cure the problem by curing its symptoms – which is what the woke/PC bandwagon wants to do these days. Anyway, good luck to them…

    4. Devyani Khobragade, the Indian diplomat who got arrested in New York, is a Mahar , Mahar is a Leather worker caste and hence untouchable ; In the Hindi belt, leather worker caste is called Chamar

      1. “Mahar is a Leather worker caste…” —>

        @gsubrec, afaik, most mahars had nothing to do with leather-tanning. There is a separate jaati in maharashtra which worked in this field. As for the cham**rs of north india, Ramnarayan Rawat, a professor at University of Delaware, has written a great book(Reconsidering untouchability) proving that most cham**rs in north india were involved in agriculture for generations . The ‘leather-tanning’ ones would be in minority here. This makes me wonder why the tag of ‘cham**r’ remained attached to those folks .

  2. Razib – I notice you’ve increasingly kept out of the culture wars in recent years, perhaps after getting cancelled at the NYT. More than ever, however, speaking truth to woke-nonsense-somehow-turned-power is needed. I do realize that it’s easy to ask someone else to take a risk with their reputation/livelihood.

    1. 1) you should post this on the open thread. not post it on a random thread. there are many ways to reach me. posting on a random post isn’t a preferred one

      2) i have 3 kids. i have limited bandwidth. i’ve done a lot to influence and shape people over 18 years, mostly with no remuneration. i appreciate you volunteering me, but i’m going to have to do my own cost vs. benefit. tldr; the culture is gangrenous, an amputation will happen, probably due to dragon-fire. i’m not going to spend time investing in energy into what is clearly a lost cause, especially when more and more people expect others to speak up and sit on the sidelines. gondor has fallen. the orcs are dining on the meat of children. look around. it’s over.

      1. Rivendell, Lothlorien, king Thranduil, Cirdan (Grey Havens), Grimbeorn the Old (bear men), northern Dunadain, Radagast, Gandalf have not fallen yet.

        Asia, Africa and parts of Latin America, and 1776 Unites are still fighting the woke virus. They have some fire left.

        We must place our faith in the black savior.

          1. I cannot prove you wrong, but I will just say one mustn’t prophesize what humans will do next. The West may be doomed, we just cannot know.

        1. Radagast is the old Serbian name. This is also a name of deity. The next discussion topic are the mythology and deities which were brought by Aryans to SA and Pundits can read one excerpt to make comparisons with Hindu mythology.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radegast_(god)

          PS: Razib you are not wrong.

  3. Also Clarifying that this is a Neutral perspective that you can find many occurences of these situations in Urban and more so in Rural areas because Jat(Jati) defines who you are in Rural areas.
    This doesn’t means there is not hatred from the Lower Castes. There definitely is but oppression shouldn’t become the norm of the World as @Razib Says in his comments.
    I personally apart from Named Kalu is the worst thing that happened and I don’t mind that because there are worst nicknames than that.
    And the white or light/er ward and Wife is what people want in the North that cut across the Communities not necassarily the norm but still there and its Alright. People have their own preferences.

    1. You need not feel defensive bro. Its alright. Coming from OBC background i myself understand the state of churn going in the society. where stuff seems like moving forward, but older things keeps on happening as well.

      1. I posted my comment because i want to get some things out of my mind so I shree my thoughts.
        I am not defensive just saynig if it didn’t happen to me and my family because we are middle class. It happens.
        Btw Sourav are you from India?

    2. @Harshvardhan, as far as name calling goes, a lot of young folks from cham**r jaati are not ashamed of the jaati name and some are even proudly making songs about it . Have you heard of punjabi singer Ginni Mahi ? You seem to be from haryana, check out this song btw 🙂 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fOVa3xgMFng

      1. Sorry but i was just mentioning the use of word is.common amongst people using Caste (example baniya,bhangi ,chura , mullah) instead of say Color. These people mostly live in Rural areas.
        I know about the song. I personally dont like glorifying Community songs like Jatt ( present in every 5 out of 10 punjabi song).
        I by my Family was told not to use that word in Public cause now it has become a derogatory term.

        Btw my Caste is Koli.

        1. “Btw my Caste is Koli” — @Harshvardhan , interesting, kolis are SCs(dalits) only in 2-3 states, in other states, they are OBC. They are quite a dominant group in gujarat.

    1. Feels like Joseph is course-correcting after recent criticism. He would make a good BrownCast guest btw.

  4. It seems to me that this book is pretty shallow and there is not much research. The comparison between Nazi Germany and the caste system is a sufficient indication. Nazi system was only 12 year in power, the caste system is 000 of years old. I don’t know if some kind of caste system existed in SA before Aryans came (I doubt it) but they definitely brought from their old homeland such caste division. The system was called – the rank system and, most likely, was replicated in future India. It was a meritory system.

    Serbs in many 000 of years of their history never had slaves as, for example, Greeks had. For e.g. in the 4.c.BC, Athens had 135 000 of free citizens and 100000 slaves. They also had 5000 paid delegates and 6000 judges. This, highly corrupted system with all sorts of immorality, they called – democratic system i.e. tribal system. A small region Boeotia had 50000 slaves, Argolida and Corinth – 175000 slaves, more than free citizens. Such system was unsustainable what was proved in a war against Macedonian king Phillip which the coalition of Greek cities lost. This meritory rank system was made a law (King Dusan’s Law) when the Serbian kingdom was the strongest state in Europe. I wrote about this before, it was very similar to the Manu Smriti, banned the slavery and protected the basic rights of the lowest rank.

    1. As I said Serbs never had slaves nor practiced slavery in their long history. Immediately after their liberation from Ottomans, Serbia in 1835. adopted the Constitution. One of the first Constitutional provisions was:

      “Every slave who steps on Serbian soil becomes a free man.”

      It was a different story in many European countries. This photo is from Belgian colony of Kongo, in 1955.

      https://www.google.com/search?q=photo+kongo+1955&rlz=1C1GCEA_enAU795AU795&sxsrf=ALeKk00TY64lHOMwjcbN5VX9XL-K1pkcqA:1594124814855&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=zqx8JLZfTFRJgM%252CN4lePEANA7orAM%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kQvwAlZL1R5MFn-12fReGnVXJq3eQ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj1rsTakbvqAhUA4zgGHf4uAW4Q9QEwAHoECAcQGg&biw=1366&bih=657#imgrc=zqx8JLZfTFRJgM

  5. “David Reich’s group has an estimated < 1% intermarriage rate between the groups" — Razib dada, wasn't this <1% intermarriage rate only for Vysya(komati jaati) of Andhra ?

    " with a rough crystallization of caste boundaries 1,500 years ago." — Would you say that this is true for every region of india across ~2,000 jaatis ? I don't think similar farming castes of a particular region with very little cultural and ritual differences between them (for example, the Kurmis and Koeries of Uttar Pradesh ) would have maintained endogamy for this long.

  6. I can’t access the NYT article but interesting in that in the excerpt you cite they do not bring up the very example that gives the source of the loanword “caste” into English — the Spanish Empire and its complex history of racial status hierarchies, as one of the 3 examples.

    I don’t know if the analogy they’re going for is a society having caste means that “your ascribed unchosen inborn identity defines you and your social roles” or if castes are defined as representing endogamous groups in addition to that, for which the e.g. black/white segregation case kind of fits during a time interval where legal not just social pressure forced endogamy (and things like the “one drop” rule forced people into sides), though not nearly as long as Indian endogamy of course.

    The historical Latin America/Spanish empire “caste” system could be thought of as a case where there’s “castes” in the sense of one’s inborn identity, ancestry or physical appearance determines your station in life, but without endogamy, quite the contrary — it’s just that the mixed are slotted into their own bins too and still placed on a hierarchy.

    I just felt the two could be further disentangled — is the fundamental comparison about societies that have forced inequality based on ascribed attributes like lineage/physical appearance and forced social hierarchy (even if the different members in positions on the hierarchy can marry, there’s just a power imbalance with the offspring forced again into a slot on it), or is it specifically about situations where segregation exists so fully and no contact/interrmarriage is possible (or highly restricted) at all, in addition to that?

  7. One thing I have noticed when it comes to inter-caste marriages, is that they tend to be geographically disparate. You rarely find partnerships between an Iyer and a Chettiar, but you do see Iyers marrying Gujarati Baniyas, or Chettiars marrying Kayasths.

    1. That’s actually quite understandable; a South Indian Brahmin will not marry others that are “below” him in the caste hierarchy within his native region. However, the same “Brahmin” becomes a Middle caste in U.P, and can marry a Kayastha from U.P without any compunctions. In reality, both will likely share the same genetic background and appear similar as well.

  8. All I have to say is, the AIT is true as far as I have seen. Being a Hindu Jat myself, I have always felt like an alien in the larger populace of India. I look and feel so different that I am far more at home in say, Georgia (the country that I’ve visited personally) or even Romania, than I am in India. The same could easily be said for my mother and sister. My father has an East Iranic appearance, and is a tanned dark olive/brown, and is always mistaken for Azeri and/or Iranian by other old men and women who have just come from Iran. We look no different from the Kalash, with a range of appearances among us that vary from the most ethnic-looking Kalash to the Whitest, Blonde-haired, blue-eyed Eastern European looking guy among the Kalash. Growing up I never really felt out of place in school here in America, but many Indians in my class were ruthlessly bullied and harangued for their racial appearance until high school.

    Here is an example, I have attached a picture of my sister’s elementary school class, which has the typical assortment of Indian Americans, and Whites/Blacks etc. But it also has my sister and another Jat Hindu, and well, you can see the HUGE difference between them and the other Indians in the picture, they fit in as a part of the larger “White” crowd, while the other Indians are either “Indian” or “Mexican” for White Americans. Key: A picture of the large group of all students in her class, the zoomed-in picture of my sister in the White shirt, and also a zoomed-in picture of her friend wearing a colorful, flowery top, who also happens to be a Jat. The pictures speak for themselves. Link: https://imgur.com/a/heVSCuW

    When we go to parties in the States with a lot of people from the subcontinent, we invariably are always alone and different from everyone else, as no other Jats/Khatris/Aroras/Kamboj/Kashmiri Pandits/High-Caste Sindhis are ever present. We tend to be ignored and most people just assume we are either not Desi or just snobbish. I have only run into the aforementioned Biradri communities from the higher castes at generic social mixers with other Whites/Americans here in the states; they tell me they avoid South Asian events for fear of being marginalized and feeling like an outsider. Only Gujarati Patels/other Gujjus, South Indians in general, Bengalis, Biharis and most UP-walas are the major people in attendance at majority-Desi events, and as far as I’m concerned, I might as well go to a non-White Hispanic/Latin event, because that’s how different they are to me and they even look similar, just that some have even darker skin than most Hispanics. Can’t blame them personally, they’re technically a minority here and need to find others like them. I’ve personally never really felt ethnically or racially connected to any Indians in the diaspora. Even when I visit my hometown in the NCR region in India, we barely interact with the common folk you see everywhere and the distinction (in appearance) between our family/extended family/friends from our caste and the local generic middle/lower-caste population is absolutely enormous.

    I’m talking about a difference so huge, that I’ve even been considered to be a foreigner by other North Indians (of a generic caste) on many occasions. No Indian in America ever recognizes me (but that goes back to the diaspora only really consisting of Gujaratis, Tamils, Telugus, Malayalis, Marathis, Bengalis, Biharis, and UP-walas that are middle-lower caste. Even the vast majority of Punjabis look nothing like Biradri groups back home and are either Tarkhans or Doms/Mirasis or in some cases Jats who have one mixed parent/grandparent and still carry the Jatt identity.) and I constantly hear “But you look White” from anyone inside/outside the Desi community. This has led to me only finding common ground with other people who look like me, which is essentially Iranic people, Eastern Europeans, and peoples from the Caucasus, along with White Latinos, and some Italians/Greeks.

    Needless to say, I have yet to find my social group among the Desi community, or an attractive Desi woman for that matter. I’m not kidding when I say that ~99% of Desi women I see here in America are not even worth considering. AASI radically impacts their appearance to the point they look like aliens to me and my aesthetic standards do not comport with their appearances. I rather prefer women from my community, but considering the chances of running into a Hindu Jat woman are astronomically low, Eastern European and West Asian women have been my next choice owing to their essentially identical appearance in many instances, and the preference is mutual thankfully. All I have to say is, the South Asian identity means nothing to me, especially here in America where everyone more or less finds their own social/racial grouping to fit into. We’re essentially Whites/Ambiguous Whites a la Nikki Haley. Indians? They are essentially their own race, with the exception of those that look non-White Latino/Mexican/Hispanic, who can fit in easily into those communities. Good luck to all, and have a nice year ahead.

      1. how is it that we hear the loudest yelps of whiteness among the sudras?

        Razib,.
        Please I am Sudra/assume High AASI.

        My wish list would be perfect AASI, Many shades darker and 6″ taller (5’4″ in this birth), and same IQ (in the current world context, and born in Sri Lanka).

        I work like a coolie, 4-6 hrs, bare bodied, no hat, shaved head too. However, will not become the shiny black you see among some in Sri Lanka. For those who know my genetic make up, quite obvious.

        how is it that we hear the loudest yelps of whiteness among the sudras?

        Lets twist that statement around.
        Why do those who claim their looks/color/steppe yelp White women dont dig them.

        In the US in general, I made more progress with white women of a particular class once I get to talking. Very very rarely among the Black, if at all among Caribbean, English speaking.

        In Sri Lanka (within class/economic etc) as a widower, not much color bias.

      2. “even my dad is swarthy and can only pass as Azeri at best. Other ethnic Jats can only pass as far West as Eastern Iran/the Arabian Coast, “…


        Jats like us however, pass among the larger grouping of Caucasians with ease and are never mistaken for Indian, and thus have access to privileges that other “Desis” don’t get.

        imagine the plight our beautiful women would face if left to roam unaccompanied.

        I was always apprehensive that “something” like “APthk” would befell this blog one day. now it has happened. 🙁

        it some ways this blog brought this on itself. not a week passes before yet another article appears discussing the genotype and phenotype and color and facial features of brown people in painstaking detail, in the grand old tradition of nazi anthropologists. now we have this!

        1. Why does discussing ethnic/racial diversity in India prick at your conscience? Are you suggesting we ignore the grand racial diversity of India in favor of discussing how the remaining 96% of India is a “monolith”? So that you can continue to dwell in a “safe space”?

          What will happen to those biradri communities in the NW of India that don’t form a part of this contrived “monolith” of yours? Are they supposed to exclude themselves from discussions among South Asians about identity/race/phenotype and just accept that they look/are no different from other Indians in any way? Even when the staggering amount of evidence we have shows otherwise?

          I have a feeling you wouldn’t have had such an acrimonious reaction had I discussed the unique identity/phenotype differences of NE Indians, who are also very different from the bulk (>95%) of Indian people. Something about MENA/White looking Hindus makes some people very insecure. It won’t change the facts, however. We all have to learn to live with certain uncomfortable truths and comparing such discussions to Nazi-era racial paradigms is ludicrous and absolutely insane.

      3. Raj Barr-Kumar The first brown/black President of any US Professional body. He was the 1997 President of the American Institute of Architects (AIA)

        Raj is (sbarrkum’s) my first cousin, now 74, I am 61+. Son of only two brothers.
        Normally am kind of circumspect, naming people. However, both my cousin and I are both dead end, i.e no children.

        As children, there was all that implied and subtle teaching.
        More than money, write a book.

        So, Raj Barr-Kumar,
        https://www.amazon.com/Raj-Barr-Kumar/e/B001K8UPAQ%3Fref=dbs_a_mng_rwt_scns_share

        Our grandmothers side, the low key people.

        http://sbarrkum.blogspot.com/2017/08/head-clerk-of-dimbulla-tea-s-thomas-and.html

      4. I wish I could say, my cousin Raj Barr-Kumar was big money family.

        None at all, his father* died when he was 10 or so, just before my father got married, in 1953.

        Long story short, went to SL Uni (free), scholarship to UK and from there to Kansas.
        Now is in Washington DC.

        Anyway, about black south asians making it.

    1. APthk:

      I have to say that your sister and her friend do look a bit distinct from the other Indian Americans. So does Nikki Haley (but her dad not really?) and Vijender Kumar the boxer…Jats do seem like later entrants to India ( 1500 ybp?)

      What you probably don’t know is that Jats are considered Shudra, and lower caste. And really backwards and uncouth too (So unfair for such a goodlooking Caucasian type people, I know ..but that is India :)). So most of those Indian looking folks that you feel different from would be loath to marry among your kind back in the homeland. You would literally be among the last choices for Brahmins, Rajputs, Banias, upper OBCs etc in the marriage market..You would think your relative Caucasian appearance would give you an edge? Unfortunately my friend, the world is unfair, and it is not so. So there is not much chance back in India that other communities would bother you for marriage. You are saved 🙂 In the US OTOH desis would be happy to marry any desis and would probably interested in you – just forgive their ignorance and move on.

      As for the other communities you mention – I have seen Kashmiri pics and videos online and some do a look a bit different but there are plenty of brown skinned ones who would not stand out in the plains…The reason you don’t find others of your favorite communities (btw what is Kamboj? some kind of Jat like super caste?) is because uneducated, rural folks just don’t make it to the US/ can’t hack it..May be you can look for Sikh Jatts – there are plenty of those in Cali and Canada.

      Oh btw, I had to LOL at your point about Khatris/Aroras (and “high caste” Sindhis) avoiding Indian functions because of feeling different…haha..you should told all my contacts, friends etc running into the dozens who are from these communities that throng to all sorts of desis things, including religious ones along with South Indians..they just didn’t get the memo. As far as their looks, a mixed lot – many short, brown ones, many tall brown ones..but mostly all very Indian looking..Sorry none at your standards 🙂

      In any case, good to get to a Hindu Jat voice here..:) Good luck with the Persians and Meds..:)

      PS: I just Googled Haryana Jat women to just ogle at those amazing beauties (haha)
      https://tinyurl.com/yd6bpz6h

      1. nikki is jatt
        bobby jindal is khatri

        i do think nikki passes. but it’s surprising to me that her son still kind of looks indian. when you google young pics of nalin he looks more indian than my son at the same age and i’m way browner than Nikki (my youngest basically looks white but oldest son has a all-year-tan like nalin but lighter hair and less brown features)

      2. Thanks for the reply. I honestly don’t care what the status of Jats is in the Hindu varna system. I care about ethnic identity, and for me and many others, Jats are distinct as a people from other peoples in the subcontinent. This is not an appeal to Whiteness, just the facts. Also, in America, Desis are considered to be “People of Color” and at the bottom of the totem pole racially, grouped along with Mexicans and Blacks socially (albeit not economically).

        Jats like us however, pass among the larger grouping of Caucasians with ease and are never mistaken for Indian, and thus have access to privileges that other “Desis” don’t get. I rather prefer that, for what happens in India, stays in India. What happens outside of the subcontinent is what truly matters. I’ve never faced an iota of racism in my life, whereas I’ve seen well-educated IITians and Ivy League alumni from Brahmin castes face racism that is absolutely appalling. At least in America, where everyone has an equal opportunity as far as education is concerned, Jats like me have it all, while admixed Indians will always be Indian, and be subject to discrimination and disrespect, despite their education, country of birth, and wealth.

        I’m glad to hear that no admixed Indian community like the Rajputs or the other castes want to marry the uncouth Jats, for that will help us preserve our ancestry and prevent us from mixing and looking like the other 1.35 Billion Indians celebrated across the World for their looks, smells, defecation habits, poverty and accents. BTW, you can’t find pictures of Jat women by Googling — those pictures you found are of educated Rajputs and Brahmins, Jaats and others who claim to be Jats to gain respect and a higher status in Haryana/Punjab where Jats are at the top of the totem pole. You should be able to recognize them, seeing as they look no different from your own women (Hint: they are your own women, just ashamed to acknowledge it).

        I wonder why, after all, as you rightly said, Jats are shudras. Also, our women are basically kept in Purdah, that’s the level of privacy needed, especially in India, where the other castes are renowned for trying to sully the honor of their women; imagine the plight our beautiful women would face if left to roam unaccompanied. And finally, I have to wonder, where do you meet these Biradri communities that I haven’t been to already? At least in the DMV area, I have never seen a single Indo-Aryan that looks like who they claim to be.

        Of course, its completely understandable if you just believe those who claim to be Arora/Khatri etc at face value without critically evaluating their race/phenotype, which would explain why you think there are plenty of such people at “Desi” events. Haha. From my experience most Indians have never even seen an Indo-Aryan in their life and just assume that a lighter Mexican-looking Desi is “Upper Caste” or Arora/Jatt/Khatri etc. Laughable. Would also explain why Indian Americans think “I’m White” and ask me why I have an “Indian-Sounding name”.

        Hint: If they don’t look distinct from other Desis, they cannot be who they claim to be. They are just following the time honored tradition of lying about one’s caste, even though, as you state, such things are above “educated” people. I guess you could say they are ashamed to be who they are. Tough luck, after all, you can’t change your race, just your surname. Besides, >90% of such communities still live in India, not because they “can’t crack it” (after all, I’ve seen uneducated Bihari villagers “make it” in America despite coming here with a few dollars by just grinding and working their way to small business ownership, not to mention many, many Mexicans who jump the border illegally without knowing any English and go on to become millionaires) but because they have too much to lose in coming here (vast tracts of land, servants that are Brahmins and Rajputs and others who are “educated”, and a luxurious life among their own people).

        My grandfather came here to pursue higher education, and earned a PhD in a STEM field before getting an arranged marriage to a poorly educated Jat villager in India. He still has some land in India, though he sold most of it in the process of paying off his financial debts incurred during his education/to support himself and his lifestyle in the States. I wish more Jats would follow in his footsteps, but alas, I know this will most likely not happen owing to the aforementioned. My grandfather was one of the few intrepid trailblazers who truly worshiped knowledge.

        On the other hand, the educated elite of India, who look upon Jats with disdain, have a lot to gain economically by coming here. Little do they know its an uphill battle, because in America, race is part and parcel of your existence. You cannot escape it. No one in America gives a rat’s ass about your caste in India, they just care about your race, and they figure that out from your face/phenotype. And I know very well just how alien >96% of Indians (including those educated elite you mentioned) appear in America, they will never fit in with the majority here, will always be bullied, discriminated against, and made fun of even if born here, and many have already suffered the consequences (including being killed in extreme cases). I guess you could say Shudras have it much better when it comes to race. Unfair? I guess, but then, life is unfair. Anyways, I have to take your leave, I have some unfinished business with uncouth, uneducated businessmen, who are Sudras and Hindu Jats.

        1. “I’m glad to hear that no admixed Indian community like the Rajputs or the other castes want to marry the uncouth Jats, ” —- fwiw, this goes both ways, jats especially rural jats don’t like inter-marriage themselves. Rajasthani jats had long-standing rivalry with rajputs so i can’t imagine rural raj. jats somehow ‘wanting’ to marry rajputs.

        2. I look unmistakably South Asian (i.e., I can’t make up outside-of-India lineage stories with a straight face) but I haven’t experienced any material racism in the US when I lived there for much of the past decade. There are plenty of well-adjusted, well-integrated, successful desis in the US. If you only look at social media, your perception can get skewed. I get more grief about skin color in brief trips to India than living in the US and Canada. In my experience, no one has really cared much for skin tone here (other than some desis retaining their desi racism). Never felt like a victim.

        3. some of my students when i was a grad student were jatts (there is a large farming community of jatts in the central valley). in general i enjoyed them. but, i will say a few things

          1) some were brown (well, actually ppl assumed they were mexican if they were female or non-turbaned), some were white-passing (though swarthyish)

          2) self-regard was very high, kind of like you. though since most were pretty studious they came off smarter than you sound (i looked you up since you boldly and jatt-like posted your real email so i know very well you are not dumb, you are just trolling as jatts are wont to do).

          3) they were from well-off families, but they were more like rednecks in their culture and values because their parents were well-off farmers (lucrative in the central valley). so a lot different culturally than other indian students

          also, as a geneticist, i have plenty of jatt samples. jatts are genetically somewhat distinct in having more steppe. but it’s a little weird you think you are so different from other indians. clearly you’re just on the spectrum with other south asians. (i’m speaking here of indian jatts) that being said, i’ve known/met pandits jatts and khatris who are white passing who behave/talk like you. it’s obviously critical mass, because i’ve never heard a chitpavan talk like this, but that’s because a much smaller % pass as white, so even if they are white their relatives are unlikely to be.

          1. pathak et al is pretty good https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929718303987#!

            looking at jats myself, i think the most likely explanation is that they are conventional peasants of northwest india…but they have an extra dollop of almost pure steppe admixture. in a model where kalash have 0 AASI (70% indus + 30% steppe), the jat/ror are 10-15% AASI and 30-40% steppe. the % depends on various parameter values but i think they clearly have more steppe than anyone else including the kalash

          2. Razib, I mean no harm. I greatly respect you as a scholar and handily submit that your intellectual capacities exceed mine. No surprise there, Asian admixture never made someone inferior in any objective sense of the word. I am simply offering my experiences as a Jatt in the States. If people get offended by them, what am I supposed to do/say? And you are right, there is no way all of us can pass as White — but then I indicated that in my initial post — even my dad is swarthy and can only pass as Azeri at best. Other ethnic Jats can only pass as far West as Eastern Iran/the Arabian Coast, also something I acknowledged initially when I said that appearances among us ranged from the darkest Kalash to the Whitest Kalash and Dardics. So I mean no harm/offense, I simply offer a unique perspective. It is up to the reader to take offense to it. And thank you for noticing my academic credentials. I trust they are confidential and for your eyes alone. I posted it for the very reason you ascertained, as I do not intend to be a pretender. Thank you.

        4. ” At least in America, where everyone has an equal opportunity as far as education is concerned, Jats like me have it all, while admixed Indians will always be Indian, and be subject to discrimination and disrespect, despite their education, country of birth, and wealth.”

          Do you think this will last?

          In 50-100 years, America will be a much browner nation. Phenotype might matter less than the social capital that comes from being part of a well-connected Indian community.

      3. “What you probably don’t know is that Jats are considered Shudra, and lower caste.” —- @justanotherlurker, Shudra is an alien word for most rural jats and even most rural indians as pretty no one in rural india uses the word ‘shudra’ and 2-3 generations ago , most of them speaking local dialects with no penetration of sanskritised hindi wouldn’t be able to even pronounce the word .

        As as for being considered ‘lower caste’, i don’t know of any person who considers them such seriously. I doubt anyone has the balls to say that in front of Jat in a Jat-dominated vilage in Haryana. That person will be beaten badly 🙂 .

        1. Agree with TD.

          Have a lot more to say about Jats and Kambhojas another time

          As per the eastern Itihaasas and Puraanas (hundreds of references) Europeans are Yavana = Chandra Vamsha via Illa through her son Pururavas (wife Urvashi) through their son Aayu (wife Prabhaa), through their son Nuhusha (wife Ashokasundari) through their son Yayati (wife Devayani) through their son Turvasu.

          Could give the matriarchal lines too . . . which are far more spectacular than the patriarchal lines. Yavanas or Europeans are great.

          Kapila (who is believed to have lived in a continent (which is described in some detail in eastern scriptures including Surya Siddhaanta) on the far side of the globe between Europe/Africa and Asia) is also described with caucasian features. Kapila is the father of Saamkhya. Yoga is a subset within the superset of Saamkhya.

        2. Correct. Jats care not about what other castes/communities think of them — as far as I have seen/experienced, Jats consider themselves masters of their own dominion and do not concern themselves with the riff-raff of the subcontinent. Even certain Khatris share this disposition, albeit some are more urbanized and liberal. Kambojas, Jats/Rors, other Birdaris like the Aroras, etc. are all strictly endogamous and prefer only to marry within their community. The opinions of others are of no importance to them. Of course, if you badmouth them in their own village, some violent reprisal is to be expected, so be forewarned.

          1. >>>> Jats care not about what other castes/communities think of them — as far as I have seen/experienced, Jats consider themselves masters of their own dominion and do not concern themselves with the riff-raff of the subcontinent…The opinions of others are of no importance to them. Of course, if you badmouth them in their own village, some violent reprisal is to be expected, so be forewarned.<<<<<<<

            I paraphrased your sentences to establish similarities.
            Serbs care not about what anyone else think of them as far as I have seen/experienced, Serbs consider themselves masters of the world and do not concern themselves with the riff-raff of the Europe (note: Slavics are considered as Serbs)…. The opinions of others are of no importance to them. Of course, if you badmouth them in their own village, you will be offered to suck their Richard, so be forewarned because during this activity your ears can be twisted as well.

            There are some similar faces in Serbia, although not too many. I may post a link when I find some famous face on the net.

            Re: Celts – I wrote above that Aryans brought 3-rank (i.e. caste) division to SA. There is actually the 4th rank. Celts (i.e Goths, Gals, Geti, Heti, etc) were a warrior rank with a mission to go, find new land and remain there. They established kingdoms in today’s Spain, Portugal, France, Belgium (tribe Belga), Switzerland (Helveti), Italy (Lombards, Umbri), etc.

            The song I sent you a link is sang by a Serbian not by Irish band – Orthodox Celts. Both folklors are very similar.

            Have a look the following photo. Two guys from Modi’s right and a girl next to his left shoulder looks like any young boy/girl on a Belgrade street.

            https://www.dnaindia.com/bollywood/photo-gallery-year-ender-2019-bollywood-s-selfie-with-pm-narendra-modi-friends-reunion-and-other-viral-photos-of-the-year-2807096

    2. I wrote before about Jats and about their ways to come to India. It is not strange that you feel at home for e.g. in Romania because they started their voyage from there. They are genetically Serbs originated in nearby Vinca and known as Dacians, Geti, Goths, Celts, Heti, Hati and Jats. I described one their way through Egypt and Middle East to India. The other way was from the north. It is very simple to check their genetics to establish ancient kinship. Recently, one Irish guy wrote that they do not have connections with Serbs nor Jats but I think he is having a second thought now. It means that this link is still pretty unknown in a general public of Celts and Jats. But, step by step, we are uncovering some hidden and forbidden truths.

      Pls. listen for e.g. this song, if you feel that is your sound, it means that I was right:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_e7QbWc5mI&list=RDB_e7QbWc5mI&start_radio=1&t=0

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meRc3IroSp8

      1. Milan, I have personally seen one Serb who looked completely Indo Aryan to me (he had the last name Sijacic), and he mistook me for a European when he saw me, though I doubt my face is found in Serbia. He worked with me for some time and we were good friends. (I have only seen my ethnic group/face in Romania/Bulgaria/Georgia/Chechnya/Armenia/Azerbaijan/Eastern Europe/Iran/Turkey, in Israel among some Ashkeniazim and Sephardic Jews, and in Greece/Southern Europe.) I might be uninformed though, feel free to offer your opinion. Here are some pictures of my family members; where do they fit in your opinion?
        Link: https://imgur.com/a/ijIEI3x
        I can share more pictures later. Let me know what you think.

      2. I’ve always felt connected to Celtic music. Even as a child, I would listen to it rather than most Bollywood music. I don’t know what affinities the Celts have to us, but I certainly admire them as a people. Thanks for the links.

        1. “I’ve always felt connected to Celtic music. Even as a child, . . . I certainly admire them as a people. Thanks for the links.”

          Me too. Thanks Milan.

          1. Great. In this case we can send to APthk the official invitation to join the SASBA (South Asian Serbian Brotherhood Association).

    3. As a KP that lived in Punjab, Haryana and Delhi for quite some time, I can say that the most western shifted looking people are the Aroras and Khatris, followed by Punjabi Jatts. Haryanvi and UP Jats look rather generic, like Babita Phogat. One thing though, Jats do look imposing and have strong facial features. The Punjabi ones being taller, sharper and fairer and the Hindu ones having the best square-jawed features. The westernness has something to do with the “Caucasus” component in Harrapa, which decreases from the Aroras to the Hindu Jats.

  9. I cannot prove you wrong, but I will just say one mustn’t prophesize what humans will do next. The West may be doomed, we just cannot know.

    you have point estimates

    1. “so just googled some stuff. nikki’s daughter is dating a black dude. #2020 south carolina

      1+”

      Awesome! Go GIRL (Nikki’s daughter) 🙂

      Razib . . . you have to watch:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfsH3AaoqYM&t=962s.

      For the first time ever in recent weeks, wokeness is coming after highly respected black economists. I wish I were joking . . . but many black economists are in danger of being fired for being black white supremacists.

      I think the Black heterodox global leadership (including but not limited to 1776 Unites) is the only hope for our species. We all need to rally behind the black savior.

      For what it is worth several black leaders have now heard about Brown Pundits and want to speak with the Brown Pundits.

  10. Razib, you wrote:

    “In America, 20% of the marriage partners of black Americans are not black

    In 300 years about 20% of the ancestry of black Americans is now of European origin. ”

    Assuming current intermarriage rates continue at current levels. How many generations will elapse before the two groups in the US will be genetically indistinguishable?

  11. This shudra word is only used on internet. Jats have always been as dominant as rajputs in west UP let alone in Haryana or punjab. Calling them low castes is insult to actual lower castes/dalits. Its a way to downplay misery of dalits/SC by internet brahmin.

    1. “Calling them low castes is insult to actual lower castes/dalits.”

      They are called low caste by some because they want to be termed low caste. (Cf Jat agitation)

      1. I’m a little surprised to see people talking about the “Jat agitaton/protests” as an example of what true Hindu Jatts or Sikh Jatts look like. First of all, there is a nuanced difference between a “Jatt” and a “Jaat” in terms of rhetoric, but the implications are quite enormous.

        Gwalas/Cowherds/Yadavas call themselves “Jaat” in Haryana and form a diverse collection of people under the umbrella of a group called “Jaat” and it is these people that are protesting in those pictures often discussed here. They suffer from discrimination and poverty and campaign for more rights/reservations in order to improve their lot in life.

        Why would wealthy Jatt landowners/Jatts in general be protesting on the streets with random people, when they have nothing to protest in the first place? And why would they campaign for OBC status when they want nothing to do with other castes/communities, particularly OBCs? I’m honestly tickled that people think “Jaats/Gwalas” are the same as “Jatts” — then again, people, especially NRIs in the US who’ve never been to Haryana/Punjab, think Google gives you all the answers. I bet they’ve never come across a true Jat in person, in their entire life.

          1. It’s not about the surname — its how they look. You are forgetting the primacy of race/phenotype/appearance in this discussion. Its really no different than an obvious Mestizo or Harnizo or Castizo claiming to be a Criollo despite not looking like one. Of course, that doesnt happen in Latin America, but in South Asia, fellow mixed people/Harnizos (who claim to be Jatt) delude their own mixed people into believing they are higher caste by changing their surname, and marrying another fraudulent Jatt who has done the same. All the while, other authentic Jatts watch and laugh from the sidelines. Its all really a ruse to try to marry into the Jatt community. Some might fall victim to this due to financial considerations or some other pragmatic reasons, but the Hindu Jats I know would never fall for it. They can see the obvious differences.

          2. Yeah so i asked, who according to you the “authentic Jatts” ?

            Any Indian celebrity, movie star, sport star who you can point to? I mean some of them might be there, right?

    2. I don’t mind to be honest, I guess you could say us Hindu Jats/certain other similar Biradris are “Steppe Shudras” and the vast majority of other Indians are “AASI Brahmins”

  12. As someone who has often thought of the west’s new identity politics as a “caste system” – not because of any great similarity to India, but because it consists of a large number of group identities that struggle for relative status – it is interesting to see the New York Times approved version of “West as caste society”.

    I find its nature predictable in retrospect. We’ve all noticed that western liberals are increasingly eager to attack Hindutva/BJP/Modi. The Times-approved synthesis ties together “white supremacy” in America, Nazi race theory, and caste in India as co exemplars of “caste”. The attempt to associate America’s white majority with Nazism is of course familiar at the Times, but hitherto that has been purely a matter of domestic politics. The attempt to extend this to a “unified theory of caste” that includes India, could turn this ideology into one with foreign policy or geopolitical implications.

    So how would this play out, I ask myself, if, say, Biden won and believers in this viewpoint got into power in America? I can only think that it signals a preference for Congress or any other anti-BJP force that comes along. This seems in tension with the relatively bipartisan interest in substituting India for China in economic and geopolitical relations. But the protracted existence of tensions (perhaps what a Marxist would call contradictions) is part of life, especially political and geopolitical life.

    A world where Biden-BLM assume state power in America, and develop strategic ties with India even while expressing persistent disapproval of aspects of Indian society, is certainly a possible world. It might be very much like how America for a generation or more fostered economic ties with China, while always expressing hope that China would democratize; only here it would be that America hopes India would become more progressive.

    1. In this context, it sounds like BLM stands for Black, Latino & Muslim.

      Also, I don’t know if you’ve followed what’s happening in the UK, but it is a lot more visible there. Indian (Hindu) are with the Conservatives and Muslims are with Labour.

    2. “A world where Biden-BLM assume state power in America, and develop strategic ties with India even while expressing persistent disapproval of aspects of Indian society, is certainly a possible world. ”

      I think this will be the possible scenario. Also lot of Progressive backlash on Modi is water off the duck’s back. Thats y Biden presidency will have no material impact on Indo-US ties. Hell i think Modi might propose Biden-BLM to keep on criticizing him as long as he reverses Trump polices and gives India some goodies back (Visa stuff, Preferential trade, arms) etc.

      Most of India’s irk on progressive hate is due to the lead taken by Indian origin senators (who Indians think as their own) and seems to carry more weight, than some random white senator criticizing Indian polices.

      https://www.orfonline.org/expert-speak/biden-speaks-to-india-69198/

      “In the end, fears that a Democratic administration may not be as friendly to India as a Republican one, especially given the feelings around Modi, are somewhat exaggerated. “

    1. Take a look at the pictures I posted. Why are you specifically speaking of the Punjab? This is not limited to the Punjab by any means. Hindu Jats from Haryana, West UP and Rajasthan all have higher Steppe and lower AASI levels than most Punjabi Jats who are Sikh. I’ve met some Jat Sikhs, and while plenty have identical appearances to Hindu Jats, a significant minority are clearly not Jat, as they are mixed/arent’t Jat to begin with. This is evident from their appearance.

      Which makes sense, as some Jat Sikhs will intermarry across caste lines (Sikhism doesnt allow for a Caste system according to the Guru’s teachings, but ironically, it still exists) whereas Hindu Jats will not intermarry in the vast majority of cases and are historically more endogamous. Historically, Punjab has been more liberal with respect to caste/intermarriage due to Sikh influence/regional idiosyncrasies. This has also influenced some communities like the Khatri, leading to a chunk of them being more urbanized/liberal when it comes to social dynamics and marriage.

      Finally, how do you know those turbaned dancers you linked are Jat? You just see a turbaned individual and assume they are Jat? Or do you blindly believe someone based on their surname/claims of being a Jat? Do you really think people who look similar to other biradris and radically different from “pure” Jats are truly who they claim to be? I think not. Anyway, online debates won’t change reality; if Jats didnt look different from other Indians there would be no point to the caste system/biradris/endogamy to begin with and they all would have mixed with the general populace, due to their inability to tell each other apart. We all know that isn’t this case.

  13. It’s not about the surname — its how they look. You are forgetting the primacy of race/phenotype/appearance in this discussion. Its really no different than an obvious Mestizo or Harnizo or Castizo claiming to be a Criollo despite not looking like one

    your focus on phenotype is weird. phenotype in indian groups varies a lot more than genotype like most groups (law of small vs law numbers). the jat genotypes i’ve seen vary a lot less than how the ppl look.

    this is obvious when you look at nikki haley’s family. her son arguably looks more indian than she does weirdly (i can explain how this could be genetically but that’s really not relevant).

    this is clear even in groups as inbred/endogaous as kalash (way more than jats). some look west asian, some look somewaht south asian, and some look european.

  14. if Jats didnt look different from other Indians there would be no point to the caste system/biradris/endogamy to begin with and they all would have mixed with the general populace, due to their inability to tell each other apart.

    again, you are just bullshitting here. or, you are talking like an american. ppl in india clearly “know their people.” there are tribals in india who look similar and have similar AASI admixture %s who live nearby who are totally isolated for 1,000 years genetically.

    you are free express your personal opinion about american society, but when it comes to ethnogenesis and maintence of ethnic boundaries you don’t know what you are talking about.

    1. You’re correct, I’m just speaking from personal experience; I’ve lived in a Jatt community in the subcontinent before, and met plenty of them, so it is definitely true they recognize their own people. I’m also American, and not as much of an emic insider as the more rural Jatts.

      The genetic evidence bears out the isolation of neighboring communities, definitely. I just find it odd that so many other South Asians claim to have never met a Jatt that looks “different”, whatever that means. One reason could be that they run into Jatts that are on the ethnic end of the spectrum, of which there are quite a few, as I mentioned before.

      There are several other possibilities, and you mentioned some yourself. I am not expert in the field of genetics unlike you, and I defer to your expertise in that regard. The most I can offer are observations/experiences with regard to diverse phenotypes and distinctions between Jats vs. other castes/communities.

      1. i agree that jats have a certain look. and people can recognize it. it’s not just skin color either. facial features too.

        what i disagree with is the idea that there is a one-true-idealized jat look, which is what i’m getting from your comments.

        like i said, i know jats from living in central valley. i’ve seen siblings where one easily passes as white, and the other looks mestizo mexican or generic NW indian. is this totally unknown to you? you know a lot of jats so i’m wondering what the hell is going on here? am i misunderstanding you?

        jats, like most indian groups, are a descent group. they’re not a phenotypic group (which would look totally different genetically; see brazil for some of that, where phenotypic appearance is very dominant in how ppl self-classify).

        by analogy, when i see a brown person with NE indian features my prior is to assume they’re bengali. not 100%. and MOST bengalis don’t look that NE indian. but if they do… that being said, NE indian looking bengalis aren’t “more bengali” or anything.

        1. No, I agree with your observations. All I’m saying is, Jats have a range of appearances from “White”-looking to West-Asian looking to what can best be described as a “Baloch” look. The skin color ranges from brown to white, with olive being most common. This is what I’ve seen, and I’m just speaking from experience.

          As far as whether siblings can look different, most definitely — one of my aunts looks very ethnic to the point that she can’t pass west of Baluchestan, whereas my other aunt looks straight out of Chechnya. My mother and uncle are the same. So the phenotype diversity is immense and very few families have members that all appear to be “White” in the American sense exclusively. The only consistent thing I’ve noticed is that none of them look like generic South Asians you see all over the country and all can pass somewhere outside of the subcontinent, even if that means some only pass in SE Iran. Other people can also offer their input.

          I had a question about the Brazilian example — IIRC “White” Brazilians are also around 15-16% non-West Eurasian — in this regard how are they similar to Hindu Jats, who are also around 14-15% AASI, and how are they different? How would their phenotype differ in terms of looking like their ancestral groups? I would love to learn. I’ve been following you since the Gene expression days, and admire your scholarship and erudition. Definitely in a league of scholars not encountered often, and I’m saying this as someone that knows quite a few accomplished people in STEM fields. Thanks for your insights as always.

          1. had a question about the Brazilian example — IIRC “White” Brazilians are also around 15-16% non-West Eurasian — in this regard how are they similar to Hindu Jats, who are also around 14-15% AASI, and how are they different?

            the difference is brazilians vary way more in genotype than jats from what i have seen. i’m going to look at my jat genotypes again actually today after this discussion.

            there are plenty of brazilians who are white who are 0%. and some who are 30% african&indigenous.

            brazilian racial identity is traditionally not about your lineage, it’s about whether you can pass.

            in contrast, most indian groups, including jats, seem to be lineage groups. because physical appearance is due to smaller # of genes there’s more sample variance in the range of outcomes. but within the genotypes it’s homogeneous overall cuz they all share the same ancestors.

          2. Actually, Hindu Jats are around 10-15% AASI as Razib himself has stated on this blog before. (in addition to other published data) Some Rors are on the lower end of that, and Hindu Jats are closer to 14-15% AASI on average.

            Sikh Jats, Khatris and other biradris can have higher averages of course (around 16-17% on average), for obvious reasons as mentioned earlier, but I’ve never seen one as high as 20%; though there are always outliers in the data.

            Afghan Pashtuns themselves are not different from other NW South Asian groups — they are around 87% West Eurasian on average, and have a large range of values, including outliers, from around ~80% to ~90% West Eurasian. This is to be expected, as they live further West and have also mixed with Tajiks and Persians/Other predominantly Mongoloid ethnic groups in certain cases.

            In any case, I haven’t noticed any facial/phenotypic differences among Pashtuns and both Hindu or Sikh Jats, along with some other biradris. Most Tajiks have too much East Asian admixture and dont look Caucasian, but the ones that are relatively “purer” also fit in among Pashtuns and Jats for the most part. Once in a While, you come across a Yaghnobi or Pamiri Tajik that has a very less ethnic appearance, but that is far from the norm. Afghans as a whole will never be considered foreigners among Haryanvi and Punjabi Biradri communities, if we are talking about their facial appearance/phenotype. They could actually make for some very good spies in this regard.

          3. additional aasi =/= total aasi

            10% might be additional but total is 20%

            Target,Distance,IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA1,IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2,RUS_Sintashta_MLBA,S_AASI_Sim(Irula)
            Ror,0.01690880,7.0,48.0,40.4,4.6
            Jatt_Pathak,0.02403892,11.6,40.8,40.6,7.0
            Punjabi_Jatt,0.01672570,12.2,52.8,30.0,5.0
            Average,0.01922447,10.3,47.2,37.0,5.5

            Shahr BA2 is 32% AASI.

          4. The exact values are far from definitive, all we know for sure is that Jats are >80% West Eurasian. Depending on the simulation/model, they either come out as 84% or 85/86% West Eurasian, while other models differ and put them closer to 83% on average. It’s all speculation.

            I’m familiar with the amateur modeling done by amateurs/novice members at Anthrogenica, not only is it conducted by people with no credentials whatsoever in this discipline, but it is also nowhere near official, nor accurate, as it is far from peer-reviewed, published data. Also, it is based on a paucity of adequate ancient DNA; and uses arbitrary models that make wide-ranging assumptions and suffer from over-fitting and other issues. We need more ancient DNA sources to arrive at an exact or even correct estimate (or close to it).

            Until then, I trust Razib’s estimates, he actually has credentials in this discipline, and estimates the average is around 85% West Eurasian for Hindu Jats. Only PCA modeling can give us an idea of AASI affinities, like Razib pointed out. A concrete estimate is basically impossible at this point. And regarding SISBA2, they found various samples, and some are much lower than 32%, some a little lower, and some even higher %. You can’t arbitrarily pick a value and run with it. Some people just average all the samples to get an arbitrary value. It can drastically change the West Eurasian estimates, and is just an exercise in stupidity. Goes back to the whole exercise being based on a litany of assumptions and conjecture.

          5. I am not using arbitrary values, I used the average of the Shahr BA2 population group.

            Furthermore, we don’t even know of the Iran-related ancestry really is mostly west Eurasian at all, there are very high basal estimates coming from preprints along with some kind of AASI-like input as well. It can turn out to only be minority west Eurasian.

            >I’m familiar with the amateur modeling done by amateurs/novice members at Anthrogenica, not only is it conducted by people with no credentials whatsoever in this discipline, but it is also nowhere near official, nor accurate, as it is far from peer-reviewed, published data.

            And you still use their 14% or 15% estimate to suit your view.

            >Until then, I trust Razib’s estimates, he actually has credentials in this discipline, and estimates the average is around 85% West Eurasian for Hindu Jats.

            Where? I see him clarifying that there is AASI in IVC to you recently.

          6. “Other people can also offer their input.”

            One can say that Indians think of Jats as Indians with a slight ‘ethnic’ appearance.

            Most large groups in India have looks in a wide range – from West Asian to Tamil.
            (Think Priti Patel vs Dev Patel)

            And most Indians acknowledge that as you move north-west, the melanin content goes down on average.

            Jats just fit into that pattern.

            Their somewhat ‘different’ phenotype might be important to them and their neighbours in districts where they are found in large numbers.

            But it is not of much importance outside of them. This is not to say that Indians don’t have a fascination with fair skin. Just that it doesn’t translate into much material advantage except in certain fields like modelling. More so, because most of the marriages are arranged and within the same caste, there is not the same competition for mating as in western societies.

            Jats (or people who self-identify as such) themselves show a wide variety in phenotype as far as skin colour is concerned. Think of Prateek Kuhad, who looks somewhat like the Tamil actor Dhanush or Virendra Sehwag or Randeep Hooda or the current deputy chief minister of Haryana, Dushyant Chautala. Some others like Vijendra Singh can probably pass as white in the US.

            (I’d be curious to learn who of these are real Jats according to you.)

            So the association of Jats with “white” people is not very strong in India. Kashmiris have a much stronger association in this respect.

            “Whiteness” in India in any case also factors in cultural distance apart from colour and in that regard Indian Jats are pretty Indian. My hunch is, you being mistaken for white might have more to do with your being an American than your being a Jat. Could be wrong.

            Even Afghans, who are clearly lighter skinned than most Jats can often pass as ‘ethnic’ Indians since there are enough Ashrafs strewn around north India.

            I understand that things are different in the US. The racial boundaries are more clearly defined and rigid. And falling on the right side of it can grant you certain privileges (or rather help you avoid inconveniences).

            The way these boundaries are currently set up means Jats, with a right-ward shift in steppe distribution, will have a higher percentage of population falling on the white side of it.

            In which case, good on such people. They have the optionality to pass as white or Indian depending on context.

            PS – There are certain phenotypical markers for Jats that are probably stronger than skin colour — square-ish jaw and bushy eyebrows, for example.

          7. “I’d be curious to learn who of these are real Jats according to you”

            Didn’t u read, the one who look white are, the others are gwalas.

          8. Why do you guys even care who Jats consider to be Jats? I find it a little hilarious, I mind my own business, I expect others to do the same. It’s not like my opinions matter more than those of others anyway. All I’ll say is, a real Jatt knows what a Jatt looks like, whereas most other South Asians have no idea. And finally, Dathang, as far as any discussion of numbers is concerned, you need to acknowledge that none of this is definitive, and everything is based on guesswork at this point, owing to ancient DNA deficiencies. The modeling you keep alluding to is, like I mentioned previously, is nothing but an amateur simulation with many holes and deficiencies.
            You also didn’t read what I mentioned in my own post —
            “The exact values are far from definitive, all we know for sure is that Jats are >80% West Eurasian. Depending on the simulation/model, they either come out as 84% or 85/86% West Eurasian, while other models differ and put them closer to 83% on average. It’s all speculation.
            Until then, I trust Razib’s estimates, he actually has credentials in this discipline, and estimates the average is around 85% West Eurasian for Hindu Jats. Only PCA modeling can give us an idea of AASI affinities, like Razib pointed out. A concrete estimate is basically impossible at this point.
            And regarding SISBA2, they found various samples, and some are much lower than 32%, some a little lower, and some even higher %. You can’t arbitrarily pick a value and run with it. Some people just average all the samples to get an arbitrary value. It can drastically change the West Eurasian estimates, and is just an exercise in stupidity. Goes back to the whole exercise being based on a litany of assumptions and conjecture.”
            So I pointed out that I only trust Razib and other researchers who have the proper credentials and have published research. I never claimed to trust the estimates they come up with at AG “to suit my view” — I said it was all speculation and incorrect –you are simply putting words in my mouth and not reading my posts carefully.
            I also mentioned that I knew you must have averaged all the values to come up with that number for SISBA2. What makes you think you can arrive at the accurate estimate with this method? You are just playing around with numbers at this point, owing to lack of sufficient information, no different from what an amateur would do, which is what you are. There is no way of knowing how accurate it is for different groups. It isn’t one-size-fits-all.
            You also mention how Iran_North is an ambiguously defined component. It may well be. I’ve said multiple times already that this whole area of discussion is based on many assumptions that can all fall apart with more information. Which is exactly why your claims of West Eurasian ancestry estimates in Jats, which is based on amateur modeling by hobbyists and novices with too much time on their hands, holds no relevance to me.
            Finally, Razib has stated multiple times that Hindu Jats and Rors have a little more AASI than the Kalash, and previously, he wrote a post saying that Jats were around `~10% AASI, which prompted an inquiry that was clarified:
            “Are Jat Rors really only 10% AASI?
            Also what does this indicate about the relative distribution of AASI, IVC and steppe? And how common were people of each type?
            Answer: Razib’s referring to the AASI that they have in addition to whatever’s attributable to their IVC_periphery-related admixture in qpAdm.
 If we assume AASI is ENA, then Haryana Jats and Rors are around 15% AASI. So in general they actually are pretty close to being around 10% AASI. 
And yeah, they look “Caucasoid”, and their cranio-facial measurements don’t show any deviation at all towards the hunter-gatherer populations of Southern Asia and Australasia. So it shouldn’t be surprising that their AASI admixture is weak enough to not show up in their phenotypes.
”

            He reiterated this later, saying Jats were around 10-15% AASI, again, which, when including all of the AASI admixture from the IVC in his three-way model, would put them at around 84-85% West Eurasian. Of course, the caveat being its a rough estimate, and PCA plotting still takes precedence in giving us a better idea of AASI-affinity until we have more ancient DNA.

            Keep in mind 85% West Eurasian is just an average estimate for the caste, it means that Jats range from 83-86% West Eurasian, and Rors perhaps slightly more. Whatever the exact value, its certainly considerably more than 80% West Eurasian. Let’s see how future developments impact these estimates. Either way, it won’t change much, there is a reason Jats look distinct.

          9. “Why do you guys even care who Jats consider to be Jats?”

            You are mistaking curiosity for care.

            “I find it a little hilarious, I mind my own business, I expect others to do the same.”

            Pardon me for assuming you were inviting a discussion. Your comments give every indication you were.

          10. @apthk

            >So I pointed out that I only trust Razib and other researchers who have the proper credentials and have published research.

            Walk the talk and trust him with what he says, 10% to 15% on top of what is already present in the IVC.

            >Until then, I trust Razib’s estimates, he actually has credentials in this discipline, and estimates the average is around 85% West Eurasian for Hindu Jats. Only PCA modeling can give us an idea of AASI affinities, like Razib pointed out. A concrete estimate is basically impossible at this point.

            We can still get a good idea by using global25 and qpadm with the appropriate inputs. This can be done with the Shahr BA2 average as well, modeling using various Iran inputs + simulated AASI + the token anatolian component just to make sure that we cover as much as possible with a decent fit value.

            >I also mentioned that I knew you must have averaged all the values to come up with that number for SISBA2. What makes you think you can arrive at the accurate estimate with this method?

            The fit values as fine, if they weren’t something would be off (like using yamnaya + iran copper age farmer + onge as an example of a bad model). If you specifically picked the less AASI rich BA2 samples then the model would want more AASI and the converse is true as well.

            > You are just playing around with numbers at this point, owing to lack of sufficient information, no different from what an amateur would do, which is what you are. There is no way of knowing how accurate it is for different groups. It isn’t one-size-fits-all.

            I have repeatedly stated that the litmus test would be the fit value. Work with what you have.

            >You also mention how Iran_North is an ambiguously defined component. It may well be. I’ve said multiple times already that this whole area of discussion is based on many assumptions that can all fall apart with more information.

            Iran mesolithic’s model is much less concrete than the model that can be made for Jats using the bronze age + one simulated population/alternatively the simulation can be replaced by a modern population with a very high amount of the simulated ancestry but that will reduce the IVC component by a bit.

            >He reiterated this later, saying Jats were around 10-15% AASI, again, which, when including all of the AASI admixture from the IVC in his three-way model, would put them at around 84-85% West Eurasian.

            I will be quoting Razib more completely:
            “in a model where kalash have 0 AASI (70% indus + 30% steppe), the jat/ror are 10-15% AASI and 30-40% steppe”

            *IF* the AASI in Kalash is set at 0 (outside of the AASI in IVC) then Jats have a 10% to 15% *ADDITIONAL* AASI input (outside of the AASI inherited from IVC). Saying that the 10% to 15% AASI is the total amount implies that *ALL* of the IVC component is west Eurasian with *NO* AASI at all. It seems that you misunderstand what he is saying.
            By the way, which state are you originally from?

          11. “Walk the talk and trust him with what he says, 10% to 15% on top of what is already present in the IVC.”

            I am “walking the talk” — lets assume its an additional ~10%-15% AASI (which number is it? What if its not even in this range?) on top of whatever is already in the IVC (how much is present in the IVC? How confident are we about this ancestry estimate?). Where does that leave us? Around ~81-85% West Eurasian excluding outliers. What’s important to remember is that this is just a rough estimate, not a definitive one, which explains the range among other things. In other words, we are taking a lot of things for granted at the outset, and assuming we truly know how much AASI is present in each of these components, which is certainly not the case. I trust Razib more than these self-proclaimed “experts” on AG and other forums, but even he doesn’t have all the answers owing to a lack of ancient DNA among other issues. No one does.

            “We can still get a good idea by using global25 and qpadm with the appropriate inputs. This can be done with the Shahr BA2 average as well, modeling using various Iran inputs + simulated AASI + the token anatolian component just to make sure that we cover as much as possible with a decent fit value. I have repeatedly stated that the litmus test would be the fit value. Work with what you have. The fit values as fine, if they weren’t something would be off (like using yamnaya + iran copper age farmer + onge as an example of a bad model). If you specifically picked the less AASI rich BA2 samples then the model would want more AASI and the converse is true as well. Iran mesolithic’s model is much less concrete than the model that can be made for Jats using the bronze age + one simulated population/alternatively the simulation can be replaced by a modern population with a very high amount of the simulated ancestry but that will reduce the IVC component by a bit. *IF* the AASI in Kalash is set at 0 (outside of the AASI in IVC) then Jats have a 10% to 15% *ADDITIONAL* AASI input (outside of the AASI inherited from IVC).”

            I am not interested in a “good idea” or a “decent fit value” whatsoever. I am not interested in simply “working with what I have” either. I want completely accurate, well elucidated results that are true without any shred of a doubt. And I want these results published in a high-impact, peer-reviewed journal by reputed researchers with the requisite credentials who can guarantee the fidelity of their results. We are talking about something as sensitive and important as one’s identity here. Every % and every single number and component matters a LOT. You can’t play with such seminal things as one’s identity by using amateur modeling and expect people to take your claims at face value. Especially when the model whose fit values you reference is not even completely accurate and based on a boatload of assumptions.

            Until we have the complete original sources of ancestry for all of these populations and these are assessed via formal methods by the experts, and corroborated through other forms of analysis like IBD segment sharing, F3/4 statistics, uniparentals, etc, along with rejecting alternate hypotheses and having the results independently verified by a qualified third party, nothing is definitive. So this is all preliminary data or a fluke result for many reasons. I’m glad you accept that neither model is concrete, whether one is more accurate relative to another is really a moot point. Both models need to be rock-solid to be taken seriously.

            As for your last sentence, do you even know if the ancestry proportions and estimates for the Kalash are 100% accurate? What about the IVC model and its AASI proportions? Why is there a relatively large range of ancestry when Jatts are so endogamous? A single % off here and there has large consequences for the final result. It is almost impossible to draw such concrete conclusions about all South Asians, especially Jatts, using a one-size-fits all approach, particularly when ancient DNA is lacking and South Asian archaeogenetic research is still in its infancy. You can be my guest and assume that everything is 100% accurate. I know better, since I’ve seen this field change every year with new discoveries and insights, and will not jump to conclusions as if they were definitive.

            Are you a scientific researcher? NO. Do you have the necessary credentials? NO. Can you guarantee that these models and values are 100% correct? NO. Do you have all the ancient DNA and requisite information/samples needed to come to a conclusion about the correct ancestral proportions? NO. Using “simulated AASI” and arbitrary averages alongside other simulated components is just further proving my point. You are just wasting my time.

            
“By the way, which state are you originally from?”

            Not important to know. I consider myself American first. The only reason I am interested in understanding my ancestry is because I hardly run into Jats in the diaspora and I always wondered why other most South Asians have a unique appearance compared to them. All I’ve learned so far is that Jatts have different proportions of certain ancestral components not found in all South Asians. Makes sense. As far as % go, only time will tell exactly what proportions of each component we have. Good night.

          12. @APthk

            >I am “walking the talk” — lets assume its an additional ~10%-15% AASI (which number is it? What if its not even in this range?) on top of whatever is already in the IVC (how much is present in the IVC? How confident are we about this ancestry estimate?). Where does that leave us? Around ~81-85% West Eurasian excluding outliers.

            85% west Eurasian aside from the additional AASI (lets say 10%) means 5% non-west Eurasian from IVC which is too low. Use an aasi poor periphery as an input and the target will want extra aasi on the side. The AASI value for Shahr BA2’s group average is 32% with a decent least squares distance. If you use the least AASI-rich BA2 sample the simulated component will end up being bigger because that AASI ancestral component will go somewhere as opposed to disappearing. Try if out yourself.

            >What’s important to remember is that this is just a rough estimate, not a definitive one, which explains the range among other things. In other words, we are taking a lot of things for granted at the outset, and assuming we truly know how much AASI is present in each of these components, which is certainly not the case. I trust Razib more than these self-proclaimed “experts” on AG and other forums, but even he doesn’t have all the answers owing to a lack of ancient DNA among other issues. No one does.

            We have enough ancient DNA to produce accurate models, won’t be exact and they will get better over time but 15% is not the overall AASI average as you stated earlier on, it is more like 20%.

            > I want completely accurate, well elucidated results that are true without any shred of a doubt. And I want these results published in a high-impact, peer-reviewed journal by reputed researchers with the requisite credentials who can guarantee the fidelity of their results.

            Those numbers aren’t going to change radically for the recent populations, just a little bit, and the gist from the 2018 and 2019 papers was that the AASI was going to go up since Onge isn’t a good reference. I have seen this myself using Onge as an input vs a simulated component. You can wait for the numbers to rise but don’t expect a big paper to actually look into a particular specific population. That cell paper labeled all of steppe as steppe_mlba (strange move) and fooled enough midwits into thinking that it meant Sintashta as opposed to Sintashta + BMAC + things that seem to be BMAC; and thus making an ass of themselves anonymously online even after my repeated attempts at convincing them otherwise. Don’t export your thought process to someone else. Take evidence from sources but piece it together on your own.

            >Until we have the complete original sources of ancestry for all of these populations and these are assessed via formal methods by the experts, and corroborated through other forms of analysis like IBD segment sharing, F3/4 statistics, uniparentals, etc, along with rejecting alternate hypotheses and having the results independently verified by a qualified third party, nothing is definitive. So this is all preliminary data or a fluke result for many reasons. I’m glad you accept that neither model is concrete, whether one is more accurate relative to another is really a moot point. Both models need to be rock-solid to be taken seriously.

            Shooting something off by a centimeter isn’t the same as being off by a meter. The f3/f4 statistics from the 2018 cell paper didn’t check for affinity to AASI so you don’t have much to offer in that regard. They did check emba and ehg affinity and those affinity for jats was comparable to sardinians (much less than most southern europeans) and north italians respectively so it isn’t a yuge part of the ancestry. A least squares fit value of less than 2 isn’t a fluke.

            >As for your last sentence, do you even know if the ancestry proportions and estimates for the Kalash are 100% accurate? What about the IVC model and its AASI proportions?

            Razib put forth the Kalash as a comparison so ask him. Nothing has an exact least squares distance of 0 unless you are using your own parents and immediate ancestry.

            Certain proportions will vary based on the inputs, for instance using Sarazm + Ganj Dareh can give you a better fit, but Saraazm will eat away any actual Ganj Dareh-like component if itself has Ganj Dareh-like ancestry. Note a component being present doesn’t mean that those very samples are ancestral (like ganj dareh number 3 or whatever), rather if the fit is good then they are good estimates for the GD-like source or Hotu-like source .etc.

            If a combo gives say Rors for example less SB2, then it generally raises the simulated AASI component, this is because there is an actual AASI component going somewhere, either in one category or another depending on inputs, but the group average amount always remains around 20% or more as long as the fit is good. And while the fits are generally not going to be less than 1, they all converge to similar results of over 15% AASI in Rors and Jats. So even if we change west Eurasian to non-AASI, 85% is still too high for a group value, and you’ve been pushing around that number without a source btw, you first listed Razib (who didn’t state the overall ancestry, just the extra AASI) and then just went with it anyway.

            >Are you a scientific researcher? NO. Do you have the necessary credentials? NO. Can you guarantee that these models and values are 100% correct? NO. Do you have all the ancient DNA and requisite information/samples needed to come to a conclusion about the correct ancestral proportions? NO. Using “simulated AASI” and arbitrary averages alongside other simulated components is just further proving my point. You are just wasting my time.

            Look if this was truly arbitrary and not even close to the truth, we wouldn’t be seeing such consistency to the point where you can absolutely not model the Jat and Ror averge as having as little as 15% AASI ancestry without it having a poor fit value (model being rather distant to the actual target at hand).

            >Not important to know. I consider myself American first. The only reason I am interested in understanding my ancestry is because I hardly run into Jats in the diaspora and I always wondered why other most South Asians have a unique appearance compared to them. All I’ve learned so far is that Jatts have different proportions of certain ancestral components not found in all South Asians. Makes sense. As far as % go, only time will tell exactly what proportions of each component we have. Good night.

            I don’t know man, this kind of makes me suspicious of you being a Jat at all, mainly because you sound just like a certain guy who used to cross post on different websites (your insistence on not investigating anything on your own and wanting some published paper for every little fact, and then somehow running with a value that you seem to have accepted on your own regardless). And that guy’s ancestry is definitely not Jat, won’t be outing him just in case if you aren’t him.

            So far you’ve said that you want PCA, and global 25 does that, not it does more than that by using more than the principal components.

        2. In north, whenever we see the “pahadi looks”, we assume the person to be from Uttarakhand, Himachal Pradesh or sometimes even from J&K.

  15. Basically due to economic reasons Jatts are a “forward caste” in Punjab. And for linguistic reasons called Jatts vs Jaats from Hindi speaking states.

    Btw High steppe Haryana Rors are OBC ‘gauwalas’ not Jatts.

    From a Vedic perspective the economically more backward “gauwalas” are the real Vaishyas.

    The very prosperous mercantile groups that are considered Vaishya now don’t really fit the early scriptures. (Which makes sense when you consider the steppe pastoralists didn’t have any cities early on)

    In any event the average Indian person only really knows the rough “caste rankings” in their local area. How each Jati ranks compared to each other on various metrics on average.

    So for eg. khatris and are considered OBCs in Rajasthan, and Gujarat but regarded as high caste in Punjab. A Gujarati is not going to know about high status of Punjabi Khatris or vice versa unless they read about it online or something.

    An American reading some abstract scholarship on the 4 Varnas based on the manusmriti is truly going to be confused and out of their depth.

  16. Actually, Hindu Jats are around 10-15% AASI as Razib himself has stated on this blog before. (in addition to other published data) Some Rors are on the lower end of that, and Hindu Jats are closer to 14-15% AASI on average.

    minor note. the model i’m talking about is

    IVC
    steppe
    AASI

    the IVC itself is decomposed into ‘iranian related’ and ‘aasi related’

    the latter is the minority.

    so when the kalash are 70% ivc 30% steppe it’s like they are .7*.2 AASI

    the jats are like kalash + more AASI + more steppe less IVC (simplified)

    i think a model could be jats are a native peasant group who got a large extra dollop of steppe later on from a distinct migration

    1. You know better, boss. I also know that we need more autosomal DNA to truly decipher just how much AASI everyone from the Pashtuns to the Tamils carries — everything else is just conjecture, and a good-faith estimate.

      Some amateur modelers have tried their hand at this, and while I am completely ignorant of the technical details, they claim that Hindu Jats and most Rors are right around ~14-15% ENA or AASI, and some higher-K runs have shown that from the beginning. Again, just educated guesswork with over-fitting perhaps. Hopefully this mystery is fully decoded one day.

  17. You know better, boss. I also know that we need more autosomal DNA to truly decipher just how much AASI everyone from the Pashtuns to the Tamils carries — everything else is just conjecture, and a good-faith estimate.

    this is not an issue. indians and west asians are highly structured. so a small number of samples is highly informative. basically if you see 3 iyers, you see them all. though i have N = 30

  18. I think APthk is correct in pointing out that a lot of folks from NW India and NE India could be seen (and might even identify) as non-Indian.

    That being said, the cultural capital associated with being Indian is substantial. It is one of the world’s major civilizations, and memetics is likely to triumph genetics here, definitely for the NW folks, and dare I say, for the NE ones as well.

    The appeal of Indian culture is not to be underestimated. Despite our wretched, native informant suffused literature over the last 100 years, both Mahabharata and Ramayana remain ahead of anything the Anglos have produced so far, they are getting close though.

    See here: https://www.quora.com/q/jkwqbriypztidzmr/The-Mahabharata
    “The Mahabharata unveils an entirely deeper dimension of philosophical and cultural awareness — that existed in both ancient India and ancient Greece — but was not captured in The Iliad.”

    1. How are we defining Indian here ?

      I find people always have a sort of UP or MP person stereotype in mind as being the most archetypal ‘Indian’.

      The further North, East, South, and West of that core area we go people are different from ‘Indians’ culturally, linguistically, or in looks.

      1. I think the ambit is expanding, and people are recognizing that someone calling themselves as an Indian is claiming membership of a political and civilizational entity, and has little to do with genetics.

        The Brits saw this but never acknowledged it. Denial perhaps, or perhaps it suited their political goals ?

        1. I am kind of a big tent Indian. Everyone is welcome who wishes to join and has some connection to the sub-continent.

          1. I am kind of small tent Indian, each ethnicity is on its own, and if they want to “Indian” , they should come with no conditions attached, not as if they are doing a favor to India.

          2. Yes, I would say big tent Indian is the general attitude amongst Indians. It is actually a very accommodating place.

    2. ” I think APthk is correct in pointing out that a lot of folks from NW India and NE India could be seen (and might even identify) as non-Indian.”

      I would say as the years pass by, more (operating word) and more NW/NE Indians see themselves as Indian. A decade back you would hardly meet Assamese/ Jats who would identity as “Hindu” . The caste/regional pride would take precedence. Now its touch and go.

      The reverse is also true somewhat as previously Indian identifying folks of East/South has grown more unconformable with their Indian identity as India becomes more Hindu.

      1. I think this discomfort is overstated, and has more to do with contingent political factors (language status, federal issues) than any broader fissure.

    3. The term ‘ancient Greece’ is an oxymoron. The name ‘Greek’ was used almost 1000 years after the Trojan battle. In this period, they also haven’t seen Mt. Olympus and could not have ‘Olympian’ mythology. AT the time of the battle they hardly lived in today’s Greece, not mentioning that they did not have kingdoms and kings. Much later (even in Alexander’s time) they had only cities-policies. Dardans lived in Troy, not people who will be 1000 years later, after Roman conquering, named as Greeks. There is also an interesting question – are there Aryans in Mahabharata or any other connection with Aryans. Arjun and Anan found very interesting similarities btw Iliad and Mahabharata and they still research this topic.

      1. “are there Aryans in Mahabharata or any other connection with Aryans.”

        An-Arya is used in the Mahabharata, but in the sense of describing conduct, not as a racial identifier.

        The central character of the Mahabharata is Krishna, whose name literally means black ….

        1. Txs. I did not think about Aryans as a racial identifier. I was thinking – is there any character/family that belong to the recent SA migrants? This is a very difficult question, as far as I know, no one asked (nor answered) this before. Do you accept my timeline and my rationale that the Iliad is not about the future Greeks?

          1. It mentions “Yavanas” (The word comes from “ionians” and I think used to talk about Indo Greeks). They are considered among the “Melchha” ie non Aryan kingdoms.

  19. @DaThing

    Shahr BA2 is around 25% AASI.

    @APthk

    A few things here:

    I would agree with the notion that Haryana Jats and Rors are West Eurasian populations. You can see that with K-means, mclust, and FINE STRUCTURE.

    ^ I’m not gonna get bogged down with the ontological issues at play with our conceptualizations of human genetic variation (in relation to geography). The complexity of reality will always far exceed any attempt by the human subject to model it; that itself is just baked into the human-world relation qua thought.

    So, I know that “West Eurasian” (like any category) is far from being an unambiguous “fact” of nature. Exactly like how it’s ancestor in physical anthropology (“Caucasoid”) was never an unambiguous “fact” of nature.

    But for the pragmatic purposes of scientific discourse, “West Eurasian” (and “Caucasoid”) is a useful concept which works (as long as we refuse the mistake of reification). And in the context of that concept, Jats and Rors are certainly West Eurasian/Caucasoid.

    But, do you honestly think that Pashtuns and Haryana Jats look similar?

    I’m sure there’s overlap (and I’ll note that I’ve never met a Haryanvi Jat in the flesh. Also, your sister’s friend in a flowery shirt could pass as a Pashtuna, going by that picture), but I don’t think that these are interchangeable populations.

    Northeastern Pashtuns

    https://unama.unmissions.org/sites/default/files/styles/full_width_image/public/field/image/2014-05-015.jpg?itok=zejI2om4

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a4/Local_Afghan_elders_participate_in_key_leaders_engagement_inside_an_Afghan_Uniformed_Police_compound%2C_in_the_Dur_Baba_district%2C_Nangarhar_province%2C_Afghanistan%2C_Feb_120213-A-LP603-127.jpg

    Central Pashtuns

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EaFtaA1XsAAr46Z?format=jpg&name=medium

    https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/pakistan-wana-militant-taliban-rebels-of-the-wazirtribe-near-the-town-picture-id548179181?s=2048×2048

    Southwestern Pashtuns

    https://unama.unmissions.org/sites/default/files/styles/full_width_image/public/field/image/ullama_peace_jirga_-_kandahar_-_05_may_2016_img_468401_6.jpg?itok=103EjMFM

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8c/Afghan_men_of_the_Alizay_Kulay_village_in_Kandahar_Province.jpg

    Do you think these people look like Jats? And I honestly ask that (because I don’t know how Jats look in person, but I definitely know how Pashtuns look in person).

    PS: Why are you so “racist”? (“Racist” here meant in the common manner of everyday speech). Or would take umbrage at such a characterization?

    1. I don’t think its informative to discuss this at such a detailed level, but to answer your questions:

      The men you linked in the Northeastern Pashtuns: All pass easily

      The men you linked in Southwestern Pashtuns: All pass easily

      The men you linked in Central Pashtuns:
      All pass in the easily in the second link
      In the first link, the man in the foreground on the left side wearing a watch doesn’t pass, and the man with his hands in his lap second from right doesn’t pass either. They appear to have some Mongoloid influence.

      So essentially all those man pass among Hindu Jats in Haryana/West UP/Rajathan. I’ve seen many men from these ethnic groups in real life owing to my ancestry, and I’ve also seen many Pashtuns here in the DMV area. Here is a video from the Afghan-American conference held in DC a few years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5Za8eHQb6o

      Every single man and woman in that video passes with flying colors among Hindu Jats. I’ve also seen other conference videos from subsequent years, and well, the same applies. And that is not all, I went to college with an Afghan Pashtun who looked like a Jatt, and met his relatives as well. Him/his entire family assumed I was Persian when they met me, and when I told them I was from India they were incredulous.

      But passing as Persian is really a moot point. I’ve passed as far West as Slavic countries, along with many of my family members. I understand you haven’t met any Hindu Jats in real life, but they really don’t look any different from these men. There is even more diversity among us that isn’t shown here, for instance, some men and women with blonde hair/blue eyes or red hair and fairer skin, but I presume those individuals exist among Pashtuns as well.

      You probably know that Hindu Jats and Rors are around 84-87% West Eurasian, so it shouldnt come as a surprise that they overlap with other West Eurasian groups in South Asia, including Pashtuns. Let me know if you would like to communicate further, perhaps we can do so over email.

      Finally, I don’t take kindly to being labeled a racist. Perhaps you are mistaking me for someone else. Discussing racial phenotypes and differences and caste dynamics vs. other South Asian groups does not a racist make. Choose your words carefully next time.

  20. APthk, have you considered the view that Jats/Jatts/Jaats might not consider themselves Indian because of the relatively minor role they have had in Indian history ? This could explain why their attitudes are quite different from folks like Kashmiri Hindus who identify quite strongly as Indian, but have similar genetics ?

  21. i think pandits are different. they’re more generic indians albeit at one end of distribution.

    some of these lowland Punjabi groups have evidence of more complex history. if you average out the %s they look similar, but they came at it differently.

    also lots of jats feel this way. especially diasporic ones.

    and NW indian/pak groups do have a sense of racial superiority and irritation that they are associated with ugly dark-skinned southern and eastern indians (this is an extreme caricature, but it’s ridiculous not to get the subtext).

    1. “also lots of jats feel this way. especially diasporic ones.”

      Right, and I am wondering if this feeling is rooted in a sense of historical unimportance, which is being compensated for by assertions of racial superiority.

      Honestly though, I dont think upper caste Hindus, especially Brahmins, have ever thought of ‘West Eurasians’ or anyone else being superior to them.

  22. Sorry for kicking the hornet’s nest and then being MIA (was busy) 🙂 Haven’t read most of the comments here but a few quick thoughts:
    – Jats are a non-forward caste like Patels are in Gujarat or Marathas in Maharashtra. This doesn’t preclude local dominance / preeminence..Heck the Marathas even built an empire that dislodged the Mughals and would have remade India (even more than they did) had they not lost to the biggest superpower of the world – the Brits. Patels, as is written about often, only got elevated in status in the last 150 or so years (partly driven by vegetarianization due to conversion to the Swaminarayan sampraday) but are now dominant in every way in Gujarat.
    – Jats/Jatts are known/ sometimes made fun of for their rusticness / uncouthness..It’s a common enough trope in Haryana and Punjab (both sides). Anecdote: Once in a group of friends, when Vijender Singh the boxer had won an Olympic medal and was in the news, one girl was talking about how good looking he was..Another girl, a Haryana Agrawal and hence very familiar with Jats, retorted “wait until he opens his Jat mouth” 🙂
    – Jats (also Patels and other farmer castes) have more recently in the last 30-40 years have come up on a lot of wealth as land prices in outskirts of major cities have shot up
    – Yes, there is a significant minority of Jats who look a bit different (ethnic as another poster said) – Vijender and Nikki Haley are two examples, but plenty like Virender Sehwag and Dushyant Chautala are no different and would fit in quite nicely even in Central/Southern India..It is ridiculous to imply that Jats would be more at home in Romania or Georgia (some exceptions notwithstanding)…lol..one only has to Google image search Haryana Jats to disabuse oneself of such notions

    – Some NW groups have a bit of a racialist superiority complex, no doubt..Although with the tremendous success of South Indians, Brahmins but also others like Reddys (and many other communities) who are very Indian looking, you see the some of this dynamic changing. The Jat poster here would be surprised perhaps that most of these Southern groups would be quite aghast at an alliance of their child with his European looking self (back in the home country) 🙂

    – This particular Jat poster probably overestimates how separate Khatris/Aroras/”high caste” Sindhis feel from other Hindus/Indians..Given his racialist attitudes he probably attracts his type of people from these communities and extrapolates broadly from there. I know dozens of people from these types who for one don’t on average look that different (that is most are not Nikki Haley types) and secondly are perfectly content and happy to be part of Indian groupings..

    – Where is thewarlock when we need his wisdom? 🙂

    1. residency started bhai

      Recently, I saw an old man, sick man, dying man, and one committed to his work to the point of asceticism. I was making progress. Then I read this thread and came back to the point of thorough unenlightenment. In the word of a bigly smart man, “Sad!”

  23. This particular Jat poster probably overestimates how separate Khatris/Aroras/”high caste” Sindhis feel from other Hindus/Indians

    i think the bias of who one attracts/engages does matter. i am pretty coconut but when i lived in CA i knew lots of khatri/sindhi (Hindu) ppl. They were normal indians. lighter. some could pass as white (though often their feature are ‘Indian’ so more persian). the only time i got a sense of racial superiority/attitude was tbh jat kids, and Pakistani kids. the latter is clearly due to religion being a big deal.

    again, i have to emphasize that phenotype is weird. i have a half sindhi lohanna friend who looks 100% indian. i was shocked she had a white mom. in contrast one of my sons looks 100% white even though i’m not particularly light skinned (he even asked his mom recently if “he’s white” cuz he is not tanned like his siblings ;-).

    1. I have never seen Punjabi Khatris express such views, a lot of them end up marrying Bengalis and Tamils for some reason. Not met too many Sindhis.

      I think the other groups that I have seen expressing ‘we are not dark Indians’ kinds of views are high caste Nepalis and Pakistanis.

      1. Generally Hindus are more chill. Sindhi and Landha speaking Hindus arrived in India as refugees in 1947 and KPs are internally displaced they see what’s happening to the ones that are left so they know who has their back.

        Pakistanis have more racialist type views I think compounded by Bangladesh independence, identity loss to their rival India, and also the fact that they are more North Western.

        But it is strange considering Islam itself is very egalitarian about race / tribe / caste.

    1. Noted. I will say I’m not really interested in taking this genetics discussion further as its reached the end of its lifespan. But I will contribute to any other posts if I have anything to add. Thank you for fomenting conversation as always.

      1. So your “14-15%” AASI ancestry providers made a mistake wandering to Jattlands, right? I wish your folks were 100% Western Eurasian. Think how many argumentation you could avoid then.
        Sometimes nature makes mistake just to break the monotony. Very sad!

  24. I have never seen Punjabi Khatris express such views, a lot of them end up marrying Bengalis and Tamils for some reason. Not met too many Sindhis.

    same. one thing is even if their skin is white lots of these people do not look european or even arab (though iranian yes). that being said, i did know of one pandit american guy who looked generic enough in features and was white enough in skin that he was constantly false positived as a white guy and asked why his name was indian.

    i got the sense that this really got tiresome for him in his day to day life.

    1. Lol this thread is the exact type that would have once consumed me. Now, after a nice healthy dose of taking care of a bunch of real Corona hell in the hospital, this shit is just funny. I just wish the trolls were more creative.

      How do you not get tired of it? You know after reading the type of stuff I saw in this thread, even Indthings sounds like David Hume. You have a lot more patience than you give yourself credit for.

      1. JJ bhai: Very happy to hear that you are keeping yourself from plunging into this cesspool.. However, I have to say that the first poster that came to mind when I read Apthk’s post was you..Ek post to banta hai, boss

        1. Your posts are a litany of non-sequiturs and ad hominems that fall apart. I don’t see how any of your points are relevant in any way in a discussion about Jats and their genes/phenotype.

          No one brought up arranged marriage or intermarriage probability to such disparate groups as the Rajputs or Patels or Reddys at any point. As I reiterated, Jats don’t care about other communities in the subcontinent. Also, personal anecdotes or “tropes” about what others think of Jats hardly have any place in this discussion. The whole point of this discussion is that Jats look very distinct from other South Asians. Such juvenile tangents won’t detract from this fact.

          Also, your posts have a rather patronizing and unnecessarily condescending tone, which is indicative that you are taking this quite personally for some reason I cannot fathom. This kind of invective wont do you any favors and only serves to weaken your stance. It also doesn’t change the reality of the situation, i.e Jats are still different. All I have to say is, when the debate is lost, the loser resorts to slander.

          1. “As I reiterated, Jats don’t care about other communities in the subcontinent. ”

            Man, even the royal family of Dholpur don’t claim such high standards. But i guess, they must be fake Jats.

            We get it, American Jats are White.

          2. The fact that you are comparing Royal families to laymen is telling. Royal families intermarry across caste and state lines and are all mixed.

            Case in point, the family you speak of has taken Maratha wives in the past/recently. You honestly think they are a good representation of Hindu Jatt phenotypes? Then again, it is not surprising to hear generic Indians speak like this. You don’t have much experience with Jats in the flesh, so are not cognizant of the phenotype differences. Its why I advise you guys to stay out of this discussion unless you know what you are talking about. But that seems to fall on deaf ears. Oh well.

          3. Yeah man, i mean who am i to speak. Of course an American Jatt knows everything about Jatts, especially more than the person who has grown up alongside them in India, a place where there are infinitely more Jatts then America can ever have.

            But of course they must be fake Jatts, only thing they dont know it yet, so the American Jatt who visits India from time 2 time will come and emancipate them.

            BTW, on the royal linage bit, there is a portrait of Suraj Mal, the legendary fake Jatt king of Dholpur. In that he seems to pass off as George Washington.

  25. I don’t think being white passing will hold the prestige that it has for awhile. So all of this doesn’t really matter much. Enough Jats serve in the Indian army and have fought wars for more than just their own community. I am a medium brown dude and some Jats have verified by asking me, if I am one or not. This common range is not Baloch to Georgian looking. Barring a small group of exceptions, it is more Reddy to Persian looking, which is about where on the W Eurasian+geographic gradient Jats fall.

    Lol Jats don’t associate with other Indians? Come on man. Maybe in some weird cliques. They don’t care about any other group? The world is becoming more and more interconnected. The individual as a unit and what they can produce is becoming more and more relevant over tribal identity. The reality is people don’t care about any tribe as much including their own now. And even if you are right, I would stop caring so much about your phenotypic identity. It just isn’t worth your time.

    Also, I am confused. What exactly is your goal here? To convince us that Hindu Jats are closer to European pheno than typical Indian one? I mean do we want to get calipers out? If your point stands by that and eliminating what you consider “fake jats,” it does. So what? The genetics are the genetics and S Asian tribal identity is lineage based not phenotype based. Jats are S Asian but on one extreme and can maybe argued as a transitional groups.

    You hate AASI features and bad streotypes about Indians so want to use your phenotype to escape them? I mean go ahead lol. That will happen naturally. No one is stopping you. But these matter less and less. I live in the South right now. I don’t experience any racism. You have trouble finding a Hindu Jat girl? Go to where I grew up, nyc metro area! There are enough here. They mingle in the same S Asian Greeklife and dance teams in college and date around with a predilection towards desis of all types. Heck dated one. One is my best friend and dating a Rajasthani rajput dude. I don’t see this racial segregation.

    I don’t really encounter these hypersegregationist type of Jats in real life in the young generation. I think online they are a mix of trolls and people very insecure about their identity hence they cling to their tribal roots so much and constantly try to distance themselves. If your identity is so tied to your phenotype and tribal identity, I would consider rethinking things. Resting on what you perceive to be ancestral or current laurels of your community, rather than trying to focus on what makes you a stronger individual is a recipe for not reaching your potential.

    1. “I don’t think being white passing will hold the prestige that it has for awhile. So all of this doesn’t really matter much. Enough Jats serve in the Indian army and have fought wars for more than just their own community. I am a medium brown dude and some Jats have verified by asking me, if I am one or not. This common range is not Baloch to Georgian looking. Barring a small group of exceptions, it is more Reddy to Persian looking, which is about where on the W Eurasian+geographic gradient Jats fall.”

      Says who? The Gujarati Patel/Generic Gujarati that looks like a Mestizo? I’ve seen your pictures online, (AKA “Redemption”, you’re quite infamous in online circles as the angst-ridden Gujarati Vania with a massive identity crisis who claims to be Jatt while not even passing as a Tarkhan — why are you even wasting your time on these forums? I thought you were a M.D with far better things to do with your precious time. Perhaps you are envious of South Asians like yours truly that don’t look like mixed people/Mexicans? Envy wont change reality my friend) Anyone can write the drivel you just wrote. Here is an example: “I’m Sudanese and medium brown yet other Coptic Egyptians ask me all the time if I’m one of them” See what I did there? Your attempts at trolling are laughable. First of all, skin color has no relevance when it comes to race, both Coptic Egyptians and Sudanese can be brown but are entirely different racial groups. It’s about facial features. Even then, its not about passing as White, but looking like who we are, which is Caucasian/West Asian. Even Razib pointed out that Jats have a distinct appearance exclusive of skin color. The darkest Jat will NEVER look like any Patel or Reddy or generic South Asian. Unless of course, they are lying about their identity, (common in the States, and becoming more common in India) and/or are mixed and have a Jatt Grandparent or parent. Besides, if Jatts weren’t so different in appearance and race, it would’ve been quite impossible to maintain endogamy in the age before genetic studies, with every South Asian claiming to be Jatt, given a chance. It’s obvious they didnt pass as one. It is impossible. Jats all pass somewhere outside of India, even if it means only as far West as SE Iran, which has a phenotypic diversity that is unimaginable. I also find it offensive that you are conflating your group identity with mine when there are no genetic or phenotypic similarities to begin with. And who are you to make proclamations about the Jatt phenotypic range when you are not one yourself, have never been to Haryana, and have never met Hindu Jatts that fit this physical description? Jatts also dont go around asking random people if they are Jatt, for obvious reasons, especially in America. Your farce falls flat on its face. You are just another confused ABCD/NRI that has no idea about the ethnic diversity of NW Biradri groups and wants to shit all over the place with your nonsensical “theories” about what NWers SHOULD look like, in keeping with your insecurities. True blue Hindu Jats DO fit within the range of Romanian/Georgian/Italian/Greek all the way to the darkest and most ethnic Baloch/SE Iranians. You’re the kind of person that would also accuse those darker SE Iranians of “looking Indian” in person because you only look at skin color and are not a discerning observer who looks at facial features and bone structure carefully. Please stay in your own lane and go care for some Corona patients.

      “Lol Jats don’t associate with other Indians? Come on man. Maybe in some weird cliques. They don’t care about any other group? The world is becoming more and more interconnected. The individual as a unit and what they can produce is becoming more and more relevant over tribal identity. The reality is people don’t care about any tribe as much including their own now. And even if you are right, I would stop caring so much about your phenotypic identity. It just isn’t worth your time.”

      Again, stop your preaching. No one cares about your ideologies and personal agendas. The facts don’t yield to juvenile philosophical thoughts and poetic waxing. You do not speak for the world at large, my Gujarati friend. Its also funny to hear this from you, because growing up, Gujaratis were (and still are) infamous in the Indian community, both in India and abroad, for being notoriously clannish and only hanging out with other Patels and Gujjus, practicing Garba and other dances that I have no idea about, and eating vegetarian food that I absolutely despise. Of course, this is to be expected, given in America, they are a small minority and are like Hispanic/Latino Indios or Mestizos depending on their caste/appearance. Instead of merging themselves with the Hispanic/Latino community however, they want to be separate and their own island, and frequently marry other Patels and Gujaratis only. Perhaps because they do not want to be part of a community that although looks like them, is disparaged and marginalized and looked at in a negative light owing to SES and other reasons. Of course there are always some like yourself that look for greener pastures and seek to find a bride with West Asian features and so waste their time on forums online trying to unsuccessfully convince Jats and others that they can pass as one of them. I can imagine it even, its like George Lopez telling Andy Garcia that he can pass as a “White Latino” as well, and that he knows/has dated other “White Latinos” like Jennifer Lopez in the past. Absolutely hilarious! That is what you are doing my misguided friend. You have no idea just how strict endogamy is for Hindu Jats, I’ve lived in the subcontinent and I know first-hand besides being one myself. Gujaratis have NO idea. And you are talking about individual identities trumping the group identity in an era where BLM and White supremacy is reaching a boiling point, in an age and country where race is more important than ever, and in a time where people are getting genetic tests to find out more about their ancestors and where they came from. Your observations are nothing more than nonsensical agenda peddling to satisfy your bruised ego, which seeks to cyberbully Jats into accepting that they look just like Mr. Sureshbhai Patel in the South, who was unfortunately left paralyzed while being arrested, after being mistaken for Black, while Nikki Haley was elected governor and is considered Caucasian in the same regional area, by the same people. It doesn’t change reality my insecure friend.

      “Also, I am confused. What exactly is your goal here? To convince us that Hindu Jats are closer to European pheno than typical Indian one? I mean do we want to get calipers out? If your point stands by that and eliminating what you consider “fake jats,” it does. So what? The genetics are the genetics and S Asian tribal identity is lineage based not phenotype based. Jats are S Asian but on one extreme and can maybe argued as a transitional groups.”

      Jats are West Asian people that live in South Asia. They have minor admixture from South Asians, but that doesn’t change their racial characteristics or phenotype. Jats have a distinct look, and the lineage-based endogamy they practice has ensured that this look is limited only to them and not other South Asian groups. And yes, we dont look anything like Indians, forget about typical Indians, whatever that means. Why do you care so much about Jats anyway? Leave us alone. Its not like we have anything to do with Patels or Gujaratis anyway. We are happy with our own identity, and you should be with yours. I don’t see any Jats wasting their time on posts about Patels/Gujaratis trying to ascertain what they look like/what their genetic heritage shows. Your unexplainable curiosity belies an envy and insecurity that I’ve mentioned earlier — you hate the fact that Jats look different from other South Asians and the fact that in America and in other countries outside of India, will not be grouped with you guys for obvious reasons. Why does this give you so much insecurity and angst? I can only surmise that it is because you want all South Asians to be tarred with the same stereotypes that people from your community suffer from, and since that is obviously not the case, you can’t sleep at night. It really is quite an immature exercise. I can even imagine you in the act: “NO! This cannot be! ALL desis look the SAME! Hindu Jats CANT look White! NOT fair! I’ll keep trolling until I win some juvenile argument and then get some sleep!” Also, people who aren’t Jats themselves only waste time on something like this if they secretly know that they are wrong but have trouble accepting the truth. You have thousands of posts on race forums where you lampooned Jats and Khatris and other biradris, and when you got banned from that pathetic website, you showed up here to vent your angst and frustration at looking different from Jats and other biradris. I mean its positively absurd that a non-Jatt is trying to teach me what my own people look like, as if I don’t know any better. Absolutely amazing. Really funny guy, may you entertain yourself with further tomfoolery and drama when you get time off from residency my Gujju bhai, it means nothing to me.

      “You hate AASI features and bad streotypes about Indians so want to use your phenotype to escape them? I mean go ahead lol. That will happen naturally. No one is stopping you. But these matter less and less. I live in the South right now. I don’t experience any racism. You have trouble finding a Hindu Jat girl? Go to where I grew up, nyc metro area! There are enough here. They mingle in the same S Asian Greeklife and dance teams in college and date around with a predilection towards desis of all types. Heck dated one. One is my best friend and dating a Rajasthani rajput dude. I don’t see this racial segregation.”

      Blah blah blah, the same drivel repeated over and over again. You might not face any racism in the South, but Suresh Patel and many others like him have, to appalling consequences. I’m glad you accept that we will organically escape any negative perceptions about Indians or any discrimination they suffer from, owing to our appearances. That is really a given, owing to phenotype. What you also need to accept is that your anecdotal experiences dont mean anything to Jats and other people. Keep them to yourself. As for there being many Hindu Jats in the Tri-State area, AKA Little Gujarat/Tamil Nadu/Karnataka, Puh-lease, dont make me laugh. I’d love to see who these “Jats” are, I can tell you the chances of them being Hindu Jatt are slim to none, not only because there are very, very few of them in America to begin with, but also because they are very endogamous and most would date/marry other Caucasians not Indians, unless they happen to fall in love with one. BTW, I never claimed to “hate AASI features” — I simply said they do not align with my personal preferences for what I find beautiful. People can’t have preferences now? And they can’t like their own ethnic group? Other South Asian women I encounter in America look like aliens to me when compared to Hindu Jatt women. Then again, maybe people can’t have preferences according to you.

      “I don’t really encounter these hypersegregationist type of Jats in real life in the young generation. I think online they are a mix of trolls and people very insecure about their identity hence they cling to their tribal roots so much and constantly try to distance themselves. If your identity is so tied to your phenotype and tribal identity, I would consider rethinking things. Resting on what you perceive to be ancestral or current laurels of your community, rather than trying to focus on what makes you a stronger individual is a recipe for not reaching your potential.”

      How many Hindu Jatts (who truly are who they claim to be) do you even know in real life? Probably zero. I’m sure you and your retinue of followers will come up with some magical number to prop up your strawman argument, but that won’t change the facts. Again, arguing like children on a website doesn’t alter realities in the real world. Also, I never realized that being proud of one’s ethnic identity and wanting to stay endogamous meant that one was being “hypersegregationist” and intolerant — by that logic, all Gujaratis in America and India should marry African Americans and Bihari dalits respectively to prove just how open-minded and accepting they are. They should also stop saying they are Gujarati, stop doing Garba/Raas/whatever its called, and stop hanging out in cliques with their own people, starting businesses with other Patels, building BAPS temples, eat Beef, etc. We all know that is NOT going to happen. Anyways, just like Vijay Chokalingam identified as “Black” to get into Medical School, a luxury I can’t even use if I wanted to, Jats can easily identify as “White/Caucasian” without any issues whatsoever. And Gujaratis can say they are Hispanic/Latino (you might have yourself, who knows).

      Finally, there you go again giving out advice like an armchair psychiatrist. (Arent you still in residency? Are you moonlighting? Not legal my friend) No one asked you for your advice. And you are just projecting at this point — according to you, people who speak the truth and describe their ethnic group and its unique phenotype and genetic affinities are insecure about themselves, whereas people like yourself who constantly barge in uninvited into discussions about Jats and other ethnic groups they have nothing to do with are just offering their vaunted opinion. Right? Wrong. You are an envious/insecure Gujarati vania who is incensed at the prospect of Hindu Jatts not looking South Asian and passing among the larger majority here in America and elsewhere. This is why you waste your time on such discussion forums to try to gain a sense of false security and comfort about your preconceived notions in order to continue living the false narrative that you’ve created for yourself where all Jatts and all South Asians blend in with each other.

      Do you waste time on sites where Assamese claim to look Persian?

      NO, because you know that is an absurd claim that doesn’t pass muster; on the contrary, you know very well that due to the clinal nature of admixture in South Asia, Hindu Jatts, who are on the fringes/periphery of the cline genetically and geographically, can and do look radically different from other South Asians, including yourself.
      You are just in denial, something you might have studied while preparing for the MCAT. Doctor Saab, you are misguided here — you are the one that is suffering from massive insecurities, as I’ve outlined above and you should really see a psychiatrist or a therapist to make sure this is put to rest. Writing nonsense online won’t magically make you look like a Jatt, nor is it going to make Jatts look like Reddys or Patels or other non-Biradri communities. The facts are not interested in your sophistry, they only answer to the facts.

      The truth is, Hindu Jatts are distinct from >99% of Indian Americans, and around ~97-98% of South Asians in the subcontinent, both genetically and phenotypically.

      I posted these pictures before, doing so again just to belabor the point: these are some of my family members, like I said, they dont pass as anyone except Hindu/Sikh Jatt or Khatri/Arora.

      Link: https://imgur.com/a/ijIEI3x

      Then again, they must be “exceptions” according to you, Haha.

      In conclusion, none of your philosophizing and personal anecdotes mean anything, the facts don’t change whatsoever. I presume you will continue to deny this however, and expect more walls of juvenile BS from you and your fanbase in the future. Happy writing, I’m not even going to bother reading/responding to any of it.

      Good day. Jai Shree Krishna.

      1. lmfao. This is amazing. Ain’t nobody got time to read all that funny business. I also now know who you are. This is fantastic. I also never claimed to be Jatt lmfao. I admit just as readily that Reddys and Bengalis mistake me as one of their own too. I look Pan Brown.

        I consider myself more of an “online Jatt whisperer.” I tame and expose confused people like you.

        Identity crisis? You know why people know I am a Guju Jain Vania right and where I cluster? Because in genetics discussions related to ancestry tests or just goofing off on who passes where threads, I never hide my identity. Lol I would like to see these online circles where I am known.

    2. “I don’t think being white passing will hold the prestige that it has for awhile. So all of this doesn’t really matter much. Enough Jats serve in the Indian army and have fought wars for more than just their own community. I am a medium brown dude and some Jats have verified by asking me, if I am one or not. This common range is not Baloch to Georgian looking. Barring a small group of exceptions, it is more Reddy to Persian looking, which is about where on the W Eurasian+geographic gradient Jats fall.”

      Says who? The Gujarati Patel/Generic Gujarati that looks like a Mestizo? I’ve seen your pictures online, (AKA “Redemption”, you’re quite infamous in online circles as the angst-ridden Gujarati Vania with a massive identity crisis who claims to be Jatt while not even passing as a Tarkhan — why are you even wasting your time on these forums? I thought you were a M.D with far better things to do with your precious time. Perhaps you are envious of South Asians like yours truly that don’t look like mixed people/Mexicans? Envy wont change reality my friend) Anyone can write the drivel you just wrote. Here is an example: “I’m Sudanese and medium brown yet other Coptic Egyptians ask me all the time if I’m one of them” See what I did there? Your attempts at trolling are laughable. First of all, skin color has no relevance when it comes to race, both Coptic Egyptians and Sudanese can be brown but are entirely different racial groups. Even Razib pointed out that Jats have a distinct appearance exclusive of skin color. The darkest Jat will NEVER look like any Patel or Reddy or generic South Asian. Unless of course, they are lying about their identity, (common in the States, and becoming more common in India) and/or are mixed and have a Jatt Grandparent or parent. Besides, if Jatts weren’t so different in appearance and race, it would’ve been quite impossible to maintain endogamy in the age before genetic studies, with every South Asian claiming to be Jatt, given a chance. It’s obvious they didnt pass as one. It is impossible. Jats all pass somewhere outside of India, even if it means only as far West as SE Iran, which has a phenotypic diversity that is unimaginable. I also find it offensive that you are conflating your group identity with mine when there are no genetic or phenotypic similarities to begin with. And who are you to make proclamations about the Jatt phenotypic range when you are not one yourself, have never been to Haryana, and have never met Hindu Jatts that fit this physical description? Jatts also dont go around asking random people if they are Jatt, for obvious reasons, especially in America. Your farce falls flat on its face. You are just another confused ABCD/NRI that has no idea about the ethnic diversity of NW Biradri groups and wants to shit all over the place with your nonsensical “theories” about what NWers SHOULD look like, in keeping with your insecurities. True blue Hindu Jats DO fit within the range of Romanian/Georgian/Italian/Greek all the way to the darkest and most ethnic Baloch/SE Iranians. You’re the kind of person that would also accuse those darker SE Iranians of “looking Indian” in person because you only look at skin color and are not a discerning observer who looks at facial features and bone structure carefully. Please stay in your own lane and go care for some Corona patients.

      “Lol Jats don’t associate with other Indians? Come on man. Maybe in some weird cliques. They don’t care about any other group? The world is becoming more and more interconnected. The individual as a unit and what they can produce is becoming more and more relevant over tribal identity. The reality is people don’t care about any tribe as much including their own now. And even if you are right, I would stop caring so much about your phenotypic identity. It just isn’t worth your time.”

      Again, stop your preaching. No one cares about your ideologies and personal agendas. The facts don’t yield to juvenile philosophical thoughts and poetic waxing. You do not speak for the world at large, my Gujarati friend. Its also funny to hear this from you, because growing up, Gujaratis were (and still are) infamous in the Indian community, both in India and abroad, for being notoriously clannish and only hanging out with other Patels and Gujjus, practicing Garba and other dances that I have no idea about, and eating vegetarian food that I absolutely despise. Of course, this is to be expected, given in America, they are a small minority and are like Hispanic/Latino Indios or Mestizos depending on their caste/appearance. Instead of merging themselves with the Hispanic/Latino community however, they want to be separate and their own island, and frequently marry other Patels and Gujaratis only. Perhaps because they do not want to be part of a community that although looks like them, is disparaged and marginalized and looked at in a negative light owing to SES and other reasons. Of course there are always some like yourself that look for greener pastures and seek to find a bride with West Asian features and so waste their time on forums online trying to unsuccessfully convince Jats and others that they can pass as one of them. I can imagine it even, its like George Lopez telling Andy Garcia that he can pass as a “White Latino” as well, and that he knows/has dated other “White Latinos” like Jennifer Lopez in the past. Absolutely hilarious! That is what you are doing my misguided friend. You have no idea just how strict endogamy is for Hindu Jats, I’ve lived in the subcontinent and I know first-hand besides being one myself. Gujaratis have NO idea. And you are talking about individual identities trumping the group identity in an era where BLM and White supremacy is reaching a boiling point, in an age and country where race is more important than ever, and in a time where people are getting genetic tests to find out more about their ancestors and where they came from. Your observations are nothing more than nonsensical agenda peddling to satisfy your bruised ego, which seeks to cyberbully Jats into accepting that they look just like Mr. Sureshbhai Patel in the South, who was unfortunately left paralyzed while being arrested, after being mistaken for Black, while Nikki Haley was elected governor and is considered Caucasian in the same regional area, by the same people. It doesn’t change reality my insecure friend.

      “Also, I am confused. What exactly is your goal here? To convince us that Hindu Jats are closer to European pheno than typical Indian one? I mean do we want to get calipers out? If your point stands by that and eliminating what you consider “fake jats,” it does. So what? The genetics are the genetics and S Asian tribal identity is lineage based not phenotype based. Jats are S Asian but on one extreme and can maybe argued as a transitional groups.”

      Jats are West Asian people that live in South Asia. They have minor admixture from South Asians, but that doesn’t change their racial characteristics or phenotype. Jats have a distinct look, and the lineage-based endogamy they practice has ensured that this look is limited only to them and not other South Asian groups. And yes, we dont look anything like Indians, forget about typical Indians, whatever that means. Why do you care so much about Jats anyway? Leave us alone. Its not like we have anything to do with Patels or Gujaratis anyway. We are happy with our own identity, and you should be with yours. I don’t see any Jats wasting their time on posts about Patels/Gujaratis trying to ascertain what they look like/what their genetic heritage shows. Your unexplainable curiosity belies an envy and insecurity that I’ve mentioned earlier — you hate the fact that Jats look different from other South Asians and the fact that in America and in other countries outside of India, will not be grouped with you guys for obvious reasons. Why does this give you so much insecurity and angst? I can only surmise that it is because you want all South Asians to be tarred with the same stereotypes that people from your community suffer from, and since that is obviously not the case, you can’t sleep at night. It really is quite an immature exercise. I can even imagine you in the act: “NO! This cannot be! ALL desis look the SAME! Hindu Jats CANT look White! NOT fair! I’ll keep trolling until I win some juvenile argument and then get some sleep!” Also, people who aren’t Jats themselves only waste time on something like this if they secretly know that they are wrong but have trouble accepting the truth. You have thousands of posts on race forums where you lampooned Jats and Khatris and other biradris, and when you got banned from that pathetic website, you showed up here to vent your angst and frustration at looking different from Jats and other biradris. I mean its positively absurd that a non-Jatt is trying to teach me what my own people look like, as if I don’t know any better. Absolutely amazing. Really funny guy, may you entertain yourself with further tomfoolery and drama when you get time off from residency my Gujju bhai, it means nothing to me.

      “You hate AASI features and bad streotypes about Indians so want to use your phenotype to escape them? I mean go ahead lol. That will happen naturally. No one is stopping you. But these matter less and less. I live in the South right now. I don’t experience any racism. You have trouble finding a Hindu Jat girl? Go to where I grew up, nyc metro area! There are enough here. They mingle in the same S Asian Greeklife and dance teams in college and date around with a predilection towards desis of all types. Heck dated one. One is my best friend and dating a Rajasthani rajput dude. I don’t see this racial segregation.”

      Blah blah blah, the same drivel repeated over and over again. You might not face any racism in the South, but Suresh Patel and many others like him have, to appalling consequences. I’m glad you accept that we will organically escape any negative perceptions about Indians or any discrimination they suffer from, owing to our appearances. That is really a given, owing to phenotype. What you also need to accept is that your anecdotal experiences dont mean anything to Jats and other people. Keep them to yourself. As for there being many Hindu Jats in the Tri-State area, AKA Little Gujarat/Tamil Nadu/Karnataka, Puh-lease, dont make me laugh. I’d love to see who these “Jats” are, I can tell you the chances of them being Hindu Jatt are slim to none, not only because there are very, very few of them in America to begin with, but also because they are very endogamous and most would date/marry other Caucasians not Indians, unless they happen to fall in love with one. BTW, I never claimed to “hate AASI features” — I simply said they do not align with my personal preferences for what I find beautiful. People can’t have preferences now? And they can’t like their own ethnic group? Other South Asian women I encounter in America look like aliens to me when compared to Hindu Jatt women. Then again, maybe people can’t have preferences according to you.

      “I don’t really encounter these hypersegregationist type of Jats in real life in the young generation. I think online they are a mix of trolls and people very insecure about their identity hence they cling to their tribal roots so much and constantly try to distance themselves. If your identity is so tied to your phenotype and tribal identity, I would consider rethinking things. Resting on what you perceive to be ancestral or current laurels of your community, rather than trying to focus on what makes you a stronger individual is a recipe for not reaching your potential.”

      How many Hindu Jatts (who truly are who they claim to be) do you even know in real life? Probably zero. I’m sure you and your retinue of followers will come up with some magical number to prop up your strawman argument, but that won’t change the facts. Again, arguing like children on a website doesn’t alter realities in the real world. Also, I never realized that being proud of one’s ethnic identity and wanting to stay endogamous meant that one was being “hypersegregationist” and intolerant — by that logic, all Gujaratis in America and India should marry African Americans and Bihari dalits respectively to prove just how open-minded and accepting they are. They should also stop saying they are Gujarati, stop doing Garba/Raas/whatever its called, and stop hanging out in cliques with their own people, starting businesses with other Patels, building BAPS temples, eat Beef, etc. We all know that is NOT going to happen. Anyways, just like Vijay Chokalingam identified as “Black” to get into Medical School, a luxury I can’t even use if I wanted to, Jats can easily identify as “White/Caucasian” without any issues whatsoever. And Gujaratis can say they are Hispanic/Latino (you might have yourself, who knows).

      Finally, there you go again giving out advice like an armchair psychiatrist. (Arent you still in residency? Are you moonlighting? Not legal my friend) No one asked you for your advice. And you are just projecting at this point — according to you, people who speak the truth and describe their ethnic group and its unique phenotype and genetic affinities are insecure about themselves, whereas people like yourself who constantly barge in uninvited into discussions about Jats and other ethnic groups they have nothing to do with are just offering their vaunted opinion. Right? Wrong. You are an envious/insecure Gujarati vania who is incensed at the prospect of Hindu Jatts not looking South Asian and passing among the larger majority here in America and elsewhere. This is why you waste your time on such discussion forums to try to gain a sense of false security and comfort about your preconceived notions in order to continue living the false narrative that you’ve created for yourself where all Jatts and all South Asians blend in with each other.

      Do you waste time on sites where Assamese claim to look Persian? NO, because you know that is an absurd claim that doesn’t pass muster; on the contrary, you know very well that due to the clinal nature of admixture in South Asia, Hindu Jatts, who are on the fringes/periphery of the cline genetically and geographically, can and do look radically different from other South Asians, including yourself.

      You are just in denial, something you might have studied while preparing for the MCAT. Doctor Saab, you are misguided here — you are the one that is suffering from massive insecurities, as I’ve outlined above and you should really see a psychiatrist or a therapist to make sure this is put to rest. Writing nonsense online won’t magically make you look like a Jatt, nor is it going to make Jatts look like Reddys or Patels or other non-Biradri communities. The facts are not interested in your sophistry, they only answer to the facts.

      The truth is, Hindu Jatts are distinct from >99% of Indian Americans, and around ~97-98% of South Asians in the subcontinent, both genetically and phenotypically. I posted these pictures before, doing so again just to belabor the point: these are some of my family members, like I said, they dont pass as anyone except Hindu/Sikh Jatt or Khatri/Arora.

      Link: https://imgur.com/a/ijIEI3x

      Then again, they must be “exceptions” according to you, Haha.

      In conclusion, none of your philosophizing and personal anecdotes mean anything, the facts don’t change whatsoever. I presume you will continue to deny this however, and expect more walls of juvenile BS from you and your fanbase in the future. Happy writing, I’m not even going to bother reading/responding to any of it. Good day. Jai Shree Krishna.

  26. I’m not into genetics much, but I think the perceived impact of genetic differences is overestimated on the ground. Some people go as far as thinking of the caste system as an Indian attempt at Eugenics, which is laughable. It’s more accurately a vehicle for preserving culture, dialect and folk practices that’s now well past it’s sell-by date.

    I get the sense that American Desis (ABCD’s ?) extrapolate their view of a race-divided society where everyone can be categorized into boxes to India, where this falls flat.

    It’s unarguable that *on average* Tamils and Mallus look different from Punjabis or Bengalis, but there’s a non-trivial fraction of people in all these groups that just aren’t easy to categorise by phenotype even for Indians who live in the country. For Indians this is saying the obvious, but some in the diaspora with ‘non-standard’ looks when compared to a crude Western stereotype of what an Indian should look like go as far as saying that they will stick out in the home country. Indians are used to a range of looks across a range of geographies, and this has only a superficial impact on most people’s lives except those in showbiz. And the pride with being mistaken for non-Indian or non- is baffling to me!

    1. Maybe things have changed, but I remember the south asian party scene in the US as having quite the representation of sindhis and punjabis. The idea of a haryanvi jatt feeling alienated in that milieu rings false.

      1. I find this whole fascination with passing for White (and the larger BP obsession with discussing phenotypes) quite bizarre. This topic of which South Asian group is “fairer” then the others comes up again and again on this forum. Frankly, it’s quite pathetic.

        I think the only time I wanted to pass for White in the US was when I was seven years old. I got over it. It seems a lot of people haven’t.

        1. You clearly have reading comprehension issues. I never stated I reveled in passing for White — I simply stated that Jats have a distinct identity which makes them very different from other South Asians. I have reiterated time and time again that Jats cannot all pass West of Southern Iran, and that some have ethnic appearances. But in all cases, they look unique, do not overlap with other South Asians, and are considered generic Caucasians by others in the US. This is to be expected given their genetic heritage and ancestry. Its the equivalent of criticizing NE Indians for claiming to look East or South East Asian when their genes and phenotype are truly distinct from other South Asians. They’ll continue to look E/SE Asian, just like Jats will look Iranic/Slavic.

          I dont find any utility in allying myself to South Asians, particularly when no such monolithic identity exists. It is a futile exercise. On the contrary, I find it hilarious that other Indians want to force us to accept that Jats are part of some mythical “Brown” race that extends from Kanyakumari to Kabul. It says more about them than it does about the Jats. Phenotypes differ in the Jat community, sure. But they also differ among all communities. This diversity is not an excuse to say that no differences exist among Hindu Jats vs. other groups in the subcontinent. Again, if that was the case, every single Jat would be mixed by now.

          1. “Jats have a distinct identity”

            Are you saying that Jat identity consists of preserving their specific genetic structure ?

            Also, if this is your identity, how does it make sense to call someone a ‘Hindu Jat’ ?

          2. Assuming an American context because Indians never use the words like “brown race” to describe themselves lol

            Indians / south Asians aren’t the ones forcing you to accept this it is broader American society.

            There has a television engineer (who looked like an average Telugu engineer) who was shot to death at a bar in the US for being a “Persian” Muslim. Not to mention Sikhs being shot up for the same reason after 9/11.

            There can also be positive things, people assume all Indians including light brown Jats are good at software.

            @kabir passing as white confers social benefits in broader society, this is why ppl are care about it. They don’t realize not only will they not pass but make themselves look foolish in the process. Better to own up to being brown.

            Come to think of it even if you pass still better to claim brown as you get more woke points in the current meta game, while minimizing any negative impacts.

          3. It’s not just you. This phenotype discussion is a BP obsession. I find all of it rather pathetic.

            I’m Pakistani-American. Raised almost entirely in the US. Never once (asides from age 7) have I pretended to be anything other than what I am. Fine, I may have let people think I was Indian because I didn’t want to get into some ignorant discussion about the Taliban or something. But even in the most Islamophobic post 9/11 environment, I’ve been fully comfortable with who I am.

            You’re entitled to ally with whoever you want. No one is forcing you to identify as “South Asian” (at least they shouldn’t). I just find the whole fascination with small physical differences bizarre. Also, “passing” for White is a very troublesome thing given the American history with race.

            I’m not really interested in discussin this further. So feel free to have the last word.

          4. Of course Jats have a distinct identity, most south Asian groups in general tend to have distinct identities. It’s not like as if south Asians see themselves as one big group of common brown people, the centuries, or even millennia of endogamy has produced strong group identities, like a nation of Baltic-like subunits in terms of bottlenecks. But this doesn’t mean that Jats are somehow more like Georgians and even Persians than like the north Indian general castes.

          5. Yes my friend, despite being genetically different from generic North Indian castes, Jatts look exactly like them and are no different from even Guptas and Vanias and Patels. In fact, Nikki Haley and Mindy Kaling and Narendra Modi and Rajnath Singh could all be a part of the same Nuclear family, they look like biological siblings to any observer!

            /End satire. You guys are incorrigible. Give it up before its too late, you already look like fools saying such absurd things. Jatts were never, and are nothing like generic North Indians or any other generic South Asian castes. They also look nothing alike facially and physically. Skin color discussions are meaningless — East Asians and Latinos/Hispanics can be lighter than many Middle Easterners and even Europeans — it doesnt mean squat.

            I’m done addressing what is a self-evident point. Anyone with eyes and a brain can see the facts . Good day.

          6. >Jatts look exactly like them and are no different from even Guptas and Vanias and Patels. In fact, Nikki Haley and Mindy Kaling and Narendra Modi and Rajnath Singh could all be a part of the same Nuclear family, they look like biological siblings to any observer!

            Opposite of what I said. Losing your mind already? I don’t want to interfere in your other discussions because, frankly, I’ve have often heated arguments with them in the past and it won’t get anything substantial this time around either.

            >End satire. You guys are incorrigible. Give it up before its too late, you already look like fools saying such absurd things. Jatts were never, and are nothing like generic North Indians or any other generic South Asian castes. They also look nothing alike facially and physically. Skin color discussions are meaningless — East Asians and Latinos/Hispanics can be lighter than many Middle Easterners and even Europeans — it doesnt mean squat.

            >I’m done addressing what is a self-evident point. Anyone with eyes and a brain can see the facts . Good day.

            One of the problems with you is your reluctance to look beyond what is immediately understandable- the self evident as you say. Jats- not even the Punjabi or Rajasthani Jats but the Haryana Jats and Rors are closer to northern Indian ‘Bhaiyya’ Brahmins than to Georgians or even Iranians from Fars. Saying that is not the same as saying that Jats are the same as generic north Indian castes, of course not! About equidistant to both Balochis/Tajik and north Indian Brahmins. Closer to Pashtuns than to Brahmins however, so you definitely got that right.

            I think you are actually right for distinguishing one group from another, but then you take one step back and want to identify with a different group. Do neither and see the groups as being distinct- as they are. Jats are not generic south Asians (who themselves are distinct from one another), and Jats are also not Balochis or central Asians or Slavs either, Jats are Jats.

            I will end this with a bit of an advice- leaving this south Asian comparison (not saying that it is one big brown population, have already stated that before) and wanting to be a part of a different group will put you at the bottom of the hierarchy of any other group that you want to be a part of. Western Iranians shit on eastern Iranians for looking like Indians, central Asians like Tajiks shit on Pashtuns for looking more Indian than they do themselves (not to say that Tajiks are a world apart, a single/small group of selected Tajik/s vs a crowd a Tajiks makes a difference!- some Sicilians online like to point this out in order to bridge the gap between themselves and other southern Europeans at the expense of a third party, but this rarely works out either) and then there are the Russians who shit on Tajiks and churkas partly for looking more middle easterners than Russians do. Basically- this kind of toxic ‘I want to be that big catchall group, not this one’ is toxic as.

          7. I’m glad we can finally agree on what is self-evident. I completely disagree with you on one point though: that passing as another group puts you at the “bottom” of said group. First of all, why are Jats even passing as ANY group that is not South Asian in the first place? They should all look different from any West Asian or European according to some trolls. Of course, we all know that is not the case. Secondly, even if certain trolls online like shitting on other groups for looking different, it doesn’t change the fact that they are only hating their own people, i.e their own racial group. That won’t change, doesn’t matter if there are facial differences, they must accept the facts, which is that they are all Caucasian. They can’t deny this, whether they like it or not. Therefore, I could care less what other people think according to your experiences and anecdotes as long as I am a Caucasian/West Asian that passes ANYWHERE outside of India, for that makes me part of the larger West Asian/European/Caucasian world and distinct from the South Asian/mixed Latino World.

            Also, Russians and Tajiks and many others have welcomed my family and I with open arms, in contrast to other South Asians who if they recognize us, dont even talk to us/treat us indifferently. Also, who says that people have an unofficial hierarchy in their minds where they treat those who look a little different from them ethnically, but not racially, with disrespect? No ONE. You are making up these experiences based on your time spent trolling on pathetic websites like Anthroscape and the Apricity that have no regard for the facts or the scientific truth and generalizing it for all South Asians in the real world. Keep your subjective opinions to yourself, and leave Jats alone please. They get plenty of respect from everyone, even those that look like Bill Clinton, despite not always looking Slavic or Western Iranic — even the darkest most ethnic looking SE Iranic Jatt gets respect from these people.

          8. >First of all, why are Jats even passing as ANY group that is not South Asian in the first place?

            Because Jats are a mix of steppe and ivc with a distinct combination.

            >First of all, why are Jats even passing as ANY group that is not South Asian in the first place? They should all look different from any West Asian or European according to some trolls. Of course, we all know that is not the case. Secondly, even if certain trolls online like shitting on other groups for looking different, it doesn’t change the fact that they are only hating their own people, i.e their own racial group.

            Wanting themselves to be distinct from other, just like some few Jats and those loosely associated with Jats want to be distinct from south Asians. There is a smaller difference between a Jat and a UP Brahmin than the difference between a Russian and Tajik or a Chechen. The only people who are concerned about these racial differences are the ones who will put you on the receiving end of your own axioms.

            >That won’t change, doesn’t matter if there are facial differences, they must accept the facts, which is that they are all Caucasian.

            Ah yes a Caucasian Russian is supposed to be closer to a Jat than some bhaiyya brahmin is. As a matter of fact, Russians are more distant to Jats than even Velamas are. And Tajiks are about as distant as northern general castes are. Trying to obfuscate relations by covering up genetic distances using tenuous old race definitions won’t get you far.

            >Also, Russians and Tajiks and many others have welcomed my family and I with open arms, in contrast to other South Asians who if they recognize us, dont even talk to us/treat us indifferently. Also, who says that people have an unofficial hierarchy in their minds where they treat those who look a little different from them ethnically, but not racially, with disrespect?

            The ones who welcome you tend to not be the ones who are concerned with racial classifications. This is a general rule. I have had good experiences with people in real life but I have seen just endless cringe by Indians thinking that they are white online even in the accepting places.

            >You are making up these experiences based on your time spent trolling on pathetic websites like Anthroscape and the Apricity that have no regard for the facts or the scientific truth and generalizing it for all South Asians in the real world.

            Wrong on both accounts, you are projecting your own past onto me. I haven’t bothered interacting with that crowd, found out about them indirectly and in some cases even after I started posting here.

            >They get plenty of respect from everyone, even those that look like Bill Clinton, despite not always looking Slavic or Western Iranic — even the darkest most ethnic looking SE Iranic Jatt gets respect from these people.

            The respect from real world people, not concerned about racial differences is the respect to the person. Romas for instance are more similar to Europeans than Jats and Rors are and they get no acceptance by either the open or the racialist types. The former because they look at the person, and the Roma have a bad reputation to them even on a personal level and the latter because they are distinct enough to apply their bigotted axioms to.

          9. More of the same BS. This time, with a twist. What really tickles me is that you consider yourself to know more than credentialed researchers who actually have access to the original data, have conducted the research themselves and published it in a journal like Cell. Sure, I’m sure you are more qualified/knowledgable than all of these “quacks” that are dumb enough to get to where they are today and publish their research in a low-brow journal like Cell. /End Sarcasm. Keep the laughs coming my friend, you seem to know more than anyone else here (in your fantasy world).

            You also seem to be rather fond of irrelevant and poorly-conducted studies that are not germane to the conversation at hand. Plus you make blanket statements as if they were fact without any evidence for the same. Why don’t you link to me to a peer-reviewed study that shows how much people like Russians and others further West of the Indus “hate” and “shit upon” NW South Asians like the Jats who are West Asians/Caucasian racially, with an assortment of faces that pass anywhere from Baluchestan to Bulgaria. I’d love to see some more irrelevant studies. Then again, I’m not exactly interested in wasting my time reading through more contrived nonsense.

            I’m not one to make blanket assumptions like you, but from your syntax and rhetoric I’m assuming you are from India, and not a NRI/someone born/living abroad. I’ve heard such illusory and delusional theories from your kind before, who have never stepped foot outside of their village/state in India and blindly believe everything they read online. I have actually lived in both America/India for various periods of time, and am intimately familiar with both Jats and European Americans, West Asians and others. My experiences with these people both in my formative years and now as an adult are dimetrically opposed to your “theories” and “warnings” that frankly, sound like the ravings of a lunatic or an immature, sheltered and naive youngster with too much anxiety. insecurity and idle time on his hands. All of what you wrote is utter BS without any sources to back it up. Anyone can do the same, it doesn’t mean anything. What credentials do you have in this discpline apart from amateur sleuthing and playing around with the numbers?

            You also like to talk about how a certain population is closer to one vs. the other based on DSTATS and genetic distance. Its pretty obvious that UP Brahmins are going to be relatively closer to Jats than Jats are to Iranians, just like Parsis are closer to Jats than they are to Iranians, but that is a a given owing to geographic proximity/historical diffusion of genes/the fact that all of these groups share some amount of DNA with each other, including different levels of AASI. Genetic drift, genetic isolation, inbreeding and other factors further increase this distance. Nothing really surprising nor informative. Does this mean that Parsis and Jats are like other South Asians and alien to West Asians? Absolutely not.

            What is surprising and relevant however, is that Jats and certain other communities have a certain % of West Eurasian DNA that makes them look Caucasian, and that this level/amount is the highest compared to other communities in South Asia. This phenotype is also why they are distinct from UP Brahmins and all other Indians, and much closer to people like Iranians, Slavics, West Asians and other Middle Eastern groups who look just like them. This is what you don’t seem to understand. When it comes to racial/social classification I don’t care what some preliminary genetic test shows, no one does when it comes to personal interactions in real life — they judge you by looking at your phenotype, and only Jats look Caucasian, and thus have more in common with groups further West of the Indus than others like UP Brahmins and middle/lower caste groups in India who might be relatively closer on PCA plots. Life =/= PCA plots. Life = phenotype and how you are perceived ethnically and racially and your racial characteristics/phenotype.

          10. >More of the same BS. This time, with a twist. What really tickles me is that you consider yourself to know more than credentialed researchers who actually have access to the original data, have conducted the research themselves and published it in a journal like Cell. Sure, I’m sure you are more qualified/knowledgable than all of these “quacks” that are dumb enough to get to where they are today and publish their research in a low-brow journal like Cell.

            Keep dreaming up things that I’ve never said. Makes you look more lucid by the post.

            >You also seem to be rather fond of irrelevant and poorly-conducted studies that are not germane to the conversation at hand. Plus you make blanket statements as if they were fact without any evidence for the same. Why don’t you link to me to a peer-reviewed study that shows how much people like Russians and others further West of the Indus “hate” and “shit upon” NW South Asians like the Jats who are West Asians/Caucasian racially, with an assortment of faces that pass anywhere from Baluchestan to Bulgaria.

            Once again you display your low IQ by not being able to read words. I didn’t make a direct link between Russians and Jats interacting. It was Russians looking down on Caucasians and central Asians, passing as those is not a good idea to gain the approval of people who care about race. the good experiences come from those who look at the person as opposed to the group, tell me how your last interactions with Russian neonazis went if you have something to the contrary. And you won’t find studies about how a group perceives another outside of countries where the problems have been sorted out to the point where research in racism becomes a point of focus. And as far as research is concerned- I respect the researchers which is why I use and cite their data, I don’t claim to come up with my own original data but I did point out how midwits weren’t able to understand the information put out by researchers. It isn’t the scientist’s or the publisher’s fault that you are stupid.

            >I’m not one to make blanket assumptions like you, but from your syntax and rhetoric I’m assuming you are from India, and not a NRI/someone born/living abroad.

            Wrong again, low IQ on display for the nth time. Ironic since you call me a rhetorician since my claims have been based on data so far, you on the other hand have no only contradicted the very source you claim to use, but have done nothing but smeared verbal diarrhea since your arrival here. You have no data or ability to think about data in any proper capacity.

            > I have actually lived in both America/India for various periods of time, and am intimately familiar with both Jats and European Americans, West Asians and others. My experiences with these people both in my formative years and now as an adult are dimetrically opposed to your “theories” and “warnings” that frankly, sound like the ravings of a lunatic or an immature, sheltered and naive youngster with too much anxiety. insecurity and idle time on his hands.

            Quite the contrary, I’ve had the experience of interacting with many more people than you have and I can guarantee that without a sociologist’s report on my past.

            >All of what you wrote is utter BS without any sources to back it up

            I have listed the sources for the original claims, you on the other hand have failed to understand a simple post that Razib made. Doesn’t reflect well on you.

            >What credentials do you have in this discpline apart from amateur sleuthing and playing around with the numbers?

            I don’t have credentials in the field which is exactly why I am not listing out my own original research. The numbers lead you somewhere if the path leads to something substantial or else there would be no pattern to them.

            >You also like to talk about how a certain population is closer to one vs. the other based on DSTATS and genetic distance. Its pretty obvious that UP Brahmins are going to be relatively closer to Jats than Jats are to Iranians, just like Parsis are closer to Jats than they are to Iranians, but that is a a given owing to geographic proximity/historical diffusion of genes/the fact that all of these groups share some amount of DNA with each other, including different levels of AASI. Genetic drift, genetic isolation, inbreeding and other factors further increase this distance. Nothing really surprising nor informative.

            And yet you lacked this very common sense piece of knowledge until it was drilled into your tiny head.

            >What is surprising and relevant however, is that Jats and certain other communities have a certain % of West Eurasian DNA that makes them look Caucasian

            Relevant? Sure, surprising? Maybe to someone with a This phenotype is also why they are distinct from UP Brahmins and all other Indians, and much closer to people like Iranians, Slavics, West Asians and other Middle Eastern groups who look just like them.

            Alright now prove this with sources, because this isn’t just something that can be thrown out, it can be measured, so show me detailed study on Jat specific craniofacial form with dozens of measurements and comparisons with middle easterners and Slavs .etc. You throw out claims without backing them up and dare call me the rhetorician with no sources here?

            >When it comes to racial/social classification I don’t care what some preliminary genetic test shows, no one does when it comes to personal interactions in real life — they judge you by looking at your phenotype, and only Jats look Caucasian, and thus have more in common with groups further West of the Indus than others like UP Brahmins and middle/lower caste groups in India who might be relatively closer on PCA plots. Life =/= PCA plots. Life = phenotype and how you are perceived ethnically and racially.

            There is one of the things that you repeatedly fail to understand, the people who focus on phenotype and race in real life aren’t going to see you as an ingroup. They would be more likely to see some Chechen as an ingroup racially and you can just see how the Chechen-Russian interactions go https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Russia

            Lots of sources list, I’ll post extracts,

            >In Russia, the word “Caucasian” is a collective term referring to anyone descended from the native ethnic groups of the Caucasus. In Russian slang, Peoples of the Caucasus are called black; this name-calling comes from their relatively darker features.[41][42] While the word black in itself is not racist, the racist synonym for it is “chernozhopy” (черножо́пый, trans. black arsed).[43] Since the dissolution of the Soviet Union, the rise of the Muslim population in Russia and the Second Chechen War, many Russian radical nationalists have associated Islam and Muslims with terrorism and domestic crimes.[44]

            >On 21 April 2001, there was a pogrom in a market in Moscow’s Yasenevo District against merchants from the Caucasus.[45] Ethnically motivated attacks against Armenians in Russia have grown so common that the president of Armenia, Robert Kocharyan, raised the issue with high-ranking Russian officials.[46] In September 2006, major ethnic tensions between Russians and Caucasians took place in Kondopoga.[47] In 2006, the crisis in Georgia–Russia relations resulted in the deportation of Georgians from Russia.[48] The Russian side explained the process as law enforcement towards illegal immigrants, whereas the Georgian government accused Russia of ethnic cleansing.[49] The European Court of Human Rights concluded that the detention and collective expulsion of Georgian nationals in 2006 violated the European Convention of Human Rights and ruled, in 2019, that Russia had to pay 10 million Euros in compensation.[50]

            >In December 2010, there was a massive outbreak of hostility towards Caucasians, culminating in nationalist protests at Manezhnaya Square in Moscow and in other cities.[51] The trigger was the murder of Egor Sviridov, a Russian association football fan, in a street fight on 6 December.[52] On 11 December, thousands of nationalist rioters, outside the Moscow Kremlin building, screamed racist phrases, cried for a “Russia for Russians” and a “Moscow for Muscovites,” attacked Caucasians and other minority groups who passed by, and some – including children as young as fourteen – made the Nazi salute.[53] The next day, a similar riot was held in Rostov-on-Don, and afterwards, the city’s government banned Caucasians from performing Lezginka, their traditional dance, in the city.[54] Later, the police chief in Moscow said that civil liberties were a hindrance in security and that migration should be restricted.[55] Vladimir Kvachkov, a major Russian nationalist leader of the organization People’s Liberation Front of Russia (which says its major goal is to “free” Russia from Caucasian and Hebrew “occupiers”), made the following statement: “We Russian nationalists, the initiators of the people’s front, we are telling you that the events of 11 December are the beginning of the revolutionary changes in Russia, the first outbursts of the approaching Russian revolution… You are the ones who can participate in it.”[53]

            Sure a part of it flamed by religious differences but there is very obvious ethnic strife going on. It is only going to be worse than this for any south Asian group being thrown in the race game. “Black arsed” yeah definitely because they are Muslims and not because they are darker people seen as an outgroup by a population not selected to be as socially open and accepting as western Europeans are. Now don’t force me to look through tons of blogs for the proof of the previous sentence, it is well known in the HBD community. I have spoonfed you enough and have received enough bullshit in return to go any further with searching for more sources only to be given a pea brained personal opinion response from you.

          11. I didn’t have access to all of the saved resources yesterday so I could only mention the Haryana (non caste specific) paper and the Jat Sikh vs Bania paper. Now I have also managed to find records of English and Anglo Saxon crania as well. I don’t have the female values for the female Anglo Saxon crania, but I do have values for English female crania.

            Firstly, there is a group of dry skull English crania in “A study of variation and correlation in human crania with a special reference to English crania” by W. R. MacDonell. It lists the English female dry skull max length as 180.36 mm, and the English female dry skull max width as 134.68 mm. Now the Jat Sikh and Bania skulls were not dry skulls so we need to add some value for living tissue, the standard value suggested by Alice Lee and then used by Karl Pearson is 11 mm, though this has varied from group to group. In “Sexual differences in the skull” by F.G. Parsons and Lucas Keene,the tissue value was stated to be 8 mm (they also reference slightly different values from other sources) but we will go with 8 mm for this. 180.36 + 134.68 + 8 + 8 = 331.04 mm. That is an anticipated L + B values for English females. The Jat Sikh female L + B value comes out as 319.7 mm and the Bania female L + B value comes out as 316.7. The nominal difference (overall) between Jat Sikh and English was 11.34 mm, and the difference between Jat Sikh and Bania was 3 mm. This was from the first paper. The second paper had it’s own different living English groups, of which, the London patients (female, 327.1 mm) had the most similar value to the Jat Sikh L+B measurement, but even then the difference is 7.4 mm as opposed to the 3 mm difference between Jat Sikh and Bania females.

            So sure, Jats are distinct in appearance and even in cranial measurements, but Jats are still ultimately more similar to other north Indian (general castes) than to European whites.

            Ancient comparisons can be found on plate 14 here:
            https://books.google.ca/books?id=wMw1AAAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA14&lpg=RA1-PA14&dq=karasuk+cranial+measurement&source=bl&ots=9y5-ljXGWL&sig=ACfU3U26bepDNPstlrsqFG-7hWG0Y3joIw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiXksCjm9LoAhXPV98KHZRBAoYQ6AEwFnoECA0QKA#v=onepage&q=karasuk%20cranial%20measurement&f=false

  27. What I have observed is the following:

    America has a tendency to classify people based on race/the way they look. It is also pretty unforgiving to people that are even a little ethnic/swarthy/have off-white Features and slots them into an ambiguous/Latino box. No one cares even a little bit about your caste or your ethnic background.

    India has a tendency to classify people based on caste/subcaste/who they claim to be. Sanskritization means that many Indians who are not of a particular endogamous community claim to be “Upper Caste” or even part of a biradri group in order to gain social status/find brides of their choosing.

    This makes for some interesting experiences once you leave India, because those that don’t pass as some sort of Caucasian (European or Middle Eastern) or even East Asian or Latino become an isolate of their own, and are considered nothing but “Indian” — like Aziz Ansari, Mindy Kaling, Asha Rangappa, the Tamil Miss America, and others. I haven’t seen this look outside of South Asia in general.

    On the other hand, plenty of Indians pass as non-White Latinos or Hispanics, particularly in the North, the West and the East. This includes most Patels, who are Mexicans that speak Hindi, at least to my eyes. Furthermore, there is a significant minority that can pass as East or South East Asian, and even a small group that can be mistaken for African American (at least to the uninformed, In Alabama, an old White woman called the cops on Sureshbhai Patel because she believed he was a “suspicious Black guy” looking into people’s homes. When the police officer arrived, he slammed him to the ground in the process of arresting him and he was left paralyzed. Very unfortunate ).

    The smallest group is that of NW Indians who can pass as MENA or European groups. This is a double-edged sword, because many can be mistaken for some other MENA ethnicity, making for some interesting situations. Though most can easily pass as some generic European or Caucasus ethnicity. These groups have an easier time fitting in, as America is majority “Caucasian” racially. Nikki Haley is considered Caucasian in the South, and was even elected Governor. This is the same place where Mr. Patel was unfairly treated.

    So America essentially judges you based on the way you look, which is more or less a reflection of your race.

    Razib even alluded to this, narrating his experiences with Kashmiri Pandits for example; I happen to know two types of Kauls: ones that look like some rare Patels, and ones that look Caucasian. (Patels themselves have a larger range of appearances, from Tamil-looking to Mestizo looking to Amisha and Priti Patel, who both look Latino/hispanic. But they can never look like NW Indian Jats/Caucasians, however.)

    As Razib points out, there are plenty of Pandits/other NW groups that pass as White or some sort of Caucasian. Among Jats, there are a significant minority of faces that look very ethnic and only pass among SE Iranians (still Caucasian), but a good majority pass much further West of Iran even. None look like generic South Asians. So its all about your phenotype. Being American, I don’t identify as an Indian, particularly among the diaspora population. I just don’t feel kinship with most Indians I see here. Most White Americans here see me as a generic Caucasian, so it never really crosses my mind that I’m technically part of an ethnic minority like the (not a racial minority), Hindu Jats. Some of my family members: https://imgur.com/a/ijIEI3x

  28. America has a tendency to classify people based on race/the way they look. It is also pretty unforgiving to people that are even a little ethnic/swarthy/have off-white Features and slots them into an ambiguous/Latino box. No one cares even a little bit about your caste or your ethnic background.

    India has a tendency to classify people based on caste/subcaste/who they claim to be. Sanskritization means that many Indians who are not of a particular endogamous community claim to be “Upper Caste” or even part of a biradri group in order to gain social status/find brides of their choosing.

    This makes for some interesting experiences once you leave India, because those that don’t pass as some sort of Caucasian (European or Middle Eastern) or even East Asian or Latino become an isolate of their own, and are considered nothing but “Indian” — like Aziz Ansari, Mindy Kaling, Asha Rangappa, the Tamil Miss America, and others. I haven’t seen this look outside of South Asia in general.

    On the other hand, plenty of Indians pass as non-White Latinos or Hispanics, particularly in the North, the West and the East. This includes most Patels, who are Mexicans that speak Hindi, at least to my eyes. Furthermore, there is a significant minority that can pass as East or South East Asian, and even a small group that can be mistaken for African American (at least to the uninformed, In Alabama, an old White woman called the cops on Sureshbhai Patel because she believed he was a “suspicious Black guy” looking into people’s homes. When the police officer arrived, he slammed him to the ground in the process of arresting him and he was left paralyzed. Very unfortunate ).

    The smallest group is that of Jats and other NW Indians who are considered Middle Eastern or European. These groups have an easier time fitting in, as America is majority “Caucasian” racially. Nikki Haley is considered Caucasian in the South, and was even elected Governor. This is the same place where Mr. Patel was unfairly treated. So America essentially judges you based on the way you look, which is more or less a reflection of your racial background.

    Razib even alluded to this, narrating his experiences with Kashmiri Pandits for example; I happen to know two types of Kauls: ones that look like some rare Patels, and ones that look Caucasian. (Patels themselves have a larger range of appearances, from Tamil-looking to Mestizo looking to Amisha and Priti Patel, who both look Latino/hispanic. But they can never look like NW Indian Jats/Caucasians, however.)

    As Razib points out, there are plenty of Pandits/other NW groups that pass as White. Among Jats, there are a significant minority of faces that look very ethnic and only pass among SE Iranians, but a good majority pass much further West of Iran even. None look like generic South Asians. So its all about your phenotype. Being American, I don’t identify as an Indian, particularly among the diaspora population. I just don’t feel kinship with most Indians I see here. Most White Americans here see me as a generic Caucasian, so it never really crosses my mind that I’m technically part of an ethnic minority (not racial minority), Hindu Jats. Some of my family members: https://imgur.com/a/ijIEI3x

  29. From the way they carry on, I always thought Jats/Jatts are aliens from another planet.

    True Jats DO NOT look like any other humans on the planet. They are their own separate species although some amount of miscegenation has occurred in India.

    I find it strange to see an online Jatt who is ok to attach himself with Georgians and Iranians even though not with lowly AASI Indians. Whither the Jat spirit ?? !! Georgians and Slavs!! The lowest among the whites with zero accomplishments to their name and only a history of suffering.

    This APthk guy must be miscegenated lowlife himself. I will tell my Jat friends to stop his “hukka-paani”.

    1. You’re correct. I’m a Steppe Shudra that looks like the vaunted Iranic and Slavic- looking Bollywood heroes Indians like you idolize and fawn over all day long. You on the other hand, are a AASI Brahmin Bhaiyya that is descended from the Pandavas themselves. What can I say? I guess I’m just a “miscegenated lowlife” that doesn’t look like the hundreds of millions of Indians that openly defecate in the open. What a pity!

      1. “open defecation”– Now, you’re just trolling. Have you met INDTHINGS? You two would get along.

        I’m Pakistani. I have no great love for Indians. But even I don’t troll them with this “open defecation” stuff.

        1. Yup, I’m the one who’s trolling, even though these are the facts, and everyone else who is using expletives and calling Jats “uncouth” and “Sudras” and “illiterate” and “undeducated” “undesirable people” who are hated by other castes is simply being civil.

          I’d expect that from a hypocritical person like you of course, probably enjoying the drama from the sidelines. Here is some information you might find interesting:

          https://newrepublic.com/article/153549/indias-futile-war-open-defecation

          https://www.huffpost.com/entry/open-defecation-india_b_7898834

          https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-27775327

          Then again, I guess I’m just a Steppe Sudra Troll who does’t know any better.

        2. I brought up the open defecation stuff when there was a discussion about Indian Muslims and hygiene issues, so I pointed out if there’s any community in India that has hygiene issues, its Hindus. I don’t approve of using that (or any other subject) as a slur.

        3. One minute you say you are Pakistani, another you say you are “ETHNICALLY INDIAN” whatever the hell that means. Just LMAO.

          And trolling? Projecting much? Open defecation was/is a fact of life for many Indians, none of whom look like Jats:

          https://newrepublic.com/article/153549/indias-futile-war-open-defecation

          https://www.huffpost.com/entry/open-defecation-india_b_7898834

          https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-27775327

          etc.

          Read them when you get some time off from your trolling.

          1. Pakistani is a nationality. We are ethnically the same as those across the Radcliffe Line (there is no ethnic/racial/whatever difference between a Pakistani Punjabi and an Indian Punjabi). There’s no contradiction in what I said.

            Yes, we are all well aware that open defection is a fact. But you were clearly using it as an insult, which I consider trolling.

            Go ahead and fight with your fellow Hindu Indians. As a Pakistani Muslim, I’ve lost interest. Bye.

          2. I’ve been commenting on this forum long before you showed up. You are no one to tell me where I can and cannot comment.

            I’m bored with this particular topic since I don’t really care at all about phenotypic differences. But if anyone criticizes Pakistan or Islam, they can best believe I’ll be there to put forward the Pakistani point of view.

      2. Bollywood is Punjabi and is forced on people. Hritik Roshan doesn’t even look remotely slavic and neither does Shahid Kapoor. All Indian Hindus whether they’re Punjabi Jats, Jat Sikhs, or Tamils are all Indians in a western country. They’re all brown skin and maybe would be mistaken for Arab in the wrong places. I’ve seen Pakistani British Mirpuri gangs who fight Nazi guys all the time in Britain and these Mirpuris are generally green and blue eyed swarthy olive toned guys. Google Meggy Khan the drug dealer of bradford and he is a Mirpuri man. Apart from Mirpuris and some full breed Waziri Pashtun races, I see all south asian groups in western countries under the same cultural sphere of people and this includes Pakistani Punjabis of Lahore in America and Canada too and push desiness on the other Pakistani groups. Only the Pakistanis on the northern and western parts of Pakistan are physically and culturally different in their behaviour abroad. Many Indian Americans and Indian Canadians whether Sikh, Hindu, Jat and Tamil were all protesting to stop all Muslim prayers inside of classrooms in Canadian schools. Even in Britain, I see the Hindu and Sikh jats of India ally with conservatives in Britain whereas the Mirpuris and Pathans generally mind their own business or would get violent if necessary like the Lynx gang of the 1980s filled with Mirpuris and Pathans. So to argue about whose skin tone is lighter or who defecates in the open is useless as they all act like the same desis abroad. The Mirpuris and Pathans dont identify with the desi label.

  30. There is talk about white passing in this thread, which made me look something up https://www.brownpundits.com/2018/11/13/skin-color-of-south-asian-groups/

    In this list, the average pigmentation melanin index of Rors was comparable to that of south Indians Brahmins and Saurashtrians. Rors don’t have a listed range but that groups with a comparable average have the extreme light end range comparable to the Italian average. So obviously, the lightest Rors and Jats can pass for Italians, but this isn’t exclusive to Jats, this would also be the case for south Indian Brahmins and Saurshtrians. Don’t know about north Indian Brahmins since they weren’t listed in that post.

    1. Skin color MEANS NOTHING when it comes to race. Race is about facial features, bone structure, physique, and essentially everything but skin color. Caucasians range from the palest White to the darkest Brown. Whether or not Mexicans and Asians and similarly admixed South Asians have light skin is of no consequence in determining their racial affinities.

      By that logic, tanned Italians look Indian and fair ones look White. Tanned Arabs and Persians look Indian, and White ones look West Asian. Fair non-White Hispanics and Latinos are “Whiter” than darker Spaniards, Greeks, and Italians, not to mention MENA people. The implications are just idiotic. The fact that you don’t mention the primacy of facial features and bone structure in looking West Asian or European is telling — you are definitely not a Jatt or part of any Biradri community, otherwise you would never make a cardinal error like this. And South Indian Brahmins and Saurashtrians can pass for Italian? LMAO, now I’ve seen it all. Those aforementioned groups dont even pass in West Asia, forget Europe. They look like non-White Latinos/Hispanics at best, Harnizos when in “pure” form. Jatts can pass in West Asia/Europe regardless of pigmentation, its about everything BUT the pigmentation. It’s not like they are Black to begin with. Shades of Brown exist all over Eurasia, even among Europeans.

      Also, just to be accurate here, some Rors are heavily tanned due to farming practices (their untanned body parts are significantly lighter) and also have great sexual dimorphism i.e the Women are several shades lighter than the men. This is why the (questionable) data indicates this. Besides, god knows how they even got this data, considering most Jats and Rors will never consent to having their privacy violated to the point of getting their untanned/tanned pigmentation chronicled. Either way it matters not, because skin color has nothing to do with race.

      1. Skin color has nothing to do with race? “Race” is a social construct and in the US it is literally decided by skin color. That’s why people are either “black” or “white”.

        1. And I guess all Whites from Bill Clinton to John Boehner to Ray Romano to John Stamos to Iranians who are considered “White” in the U.S while being as dark as Ahmadinejad, in addition to obviously brown Middle Easterners and even some from Greece and Italy who can be Brown as well, are all of the same Fitzpatrick shade, right? They all had to pass some “paper bag test” to be considered “White” in America? The real troll is you. You know nothing of race and anthropology and what little role skin color plays in that equation. Being “White” in America is a term that unites many ethnic groups under one umbrella, it is not about skin color at all. You obviously know this being an American, (or so you claim) but you are simply trolling to waste time.

          Race is about your facial features/bone structure, skin color is secondary for it varies both within and outside of Caucasians, with some Caucasians being darker than East Asians. Does this mean the U.S considers East Asians and lighter African Americans and Mexicans that are non-White but fair-skinned White? By that logic, darker Caucasians like John Boehner and John Stamos and others who are even darker are obviously not White, or less White than Latinos and East Asians like Lucy Liu. Just idiotic to even make these claims. What are you even writing?

          1. “Race” is a social construct. This is the academic consensus.

            And yes it has to do with skin color. There was a whole classification system (octoroon, quadroon etc).

            Relax. You can identify as whatever you want. Not any of our problem. But obviously if you come on a South Asian (really Indian) forum to brag about how White-passing you are, you are going to come in for some criticism.

        2. Race has nothing to do with skin color, for all racial groups have people within a large range of skin colors, from White to Brown, with the exception of Sub Saharan Africans. If you dont understand this and didnt both reading my previous posts, you are being willfully ignorant and simply trolling. Keep the BS coming.

          1. kabir is dumb. he repeats platitudes. he is incapable of thinking for himself. he’s basically a regurgitation machine. so just warning you ahead of time if you want to get into it with someone who couldn’t pass the turing test…

      2. >didn’t bring up facial features
        I have done so on multiple occasions in the past, don’t feel like spoon feeding every newcomer, but since you asked for it, here it is detail:
        https://www.jstor.org/stable/29539734
        I don’t have one on Haryana Jats specifically. Difference in head length is 2.4 mm, the difference in head width is 0.6 mm, difference in facial width is 0.3 mm, difference in bigonial is 1 mm, difference in facial length is 0.7 mm, difference in upper facial length is 0.9 mm, difference in nose length is 0.3 mm, difference in nose width is 1.9 mm.
        This was the difference between Jat Sikh females and Bania females.
        >Also, just to be accurate here, some Rors are heavily tanned due to farming practices (their untanned body parts are significantly lighter) and also have great sexual dimorphism i.e the Women are several shades lighter than the men. This is why the (questionable) data indicates this. Besides, god knows how they even got this data, considering most Jats and Rors will never consent to having their privacy violated to the point of getting their untanned/tanned pigmentation chronicled. Either way it matters not, because skin color has nothing to do with race.
        For someone who loves bringing in experts anywhere, you sure come up with excuses not based on direct data.
        >Jatts can pass in West Asia/Europe regardless of pigmentation, its about everything BUT the pigmentation. It’s not like they are Black to begin with. Shades of Brown exist all over Eurasia, even among Europeans.
        Sure you can ‘pass’ as a local in parts of west Asia, but you won’t be received well by the locals. See what I have said earlier- western Iranians look down in easterners for the Indian appearance (even though eastern Iranians barely have any AASI). If you are claiming that Jats are craniofacially similar to west Asians to the point where they are easy to blend in then bring the full measured numerical proof. I will be waiting. I remember reading this paper which didn’t specifically mention Jats, but did mention the differing affinities of people from different states to broader populations and Haryanavis had lower affinities to both Australoids and Caucasians.
        >Affinities of Haryana population with Australian European of East Asian analysis showed appreciable amount of affinity with above population. However, Haryana males showed lesser affinity (58.33 percent) with European cf. East Asia males as compared to males from Punjab (68.33 percent), UP (63.33 percent) and MP (70.00 percent). As far as females are concerned Haryanvi and Punjabi females showed only 51.66 percent and 56.66 percent affinity
        respectively with European cf. East Asian population as compared to UP and MP (61.66) percent each).
        >Haryana males and females showed appreciable amount of affinity with Australian aborigine cf. New Guinean. However, Haryana males showed lesser affinity (58.33 percent) with Australian aborigines cf. Guinean males as compared to males from Punjab (63.88 percent), UP (63.88 percent) and MP (66.66 percent). As far as females are concerned Haryanvi and Punjabi females showed only 50 percent and 47.22 percent affinity respectively with
        Australian cf. Guinea population as compared to UP (58.31 percent) and MP (55.50 percent) suggesting UP females
        showing maximum affinity with Australian aborigines.
        From: Influence of metric and non metric osteogenetic
        traits on the cranial architecture of
        population of Haryana
        Now that you have questioned my status as a Jat, I will openly state that I am a Siwach originally from Haryana, related to the Swaich gotra in Punjab. What is your gotra? I suspect that it is only loosely associated with Jats since you shoehorn in Khatri/Aroras into a discussion about Jats.

        1. You assume too much my friend. And linking to studies of “Haryanvi and Punjabi males” and generalizing it to Hindu Jats and others? Just LMAO. You just lost all credibility for implying that Haryanvi Male == Hindu Jatt male and Punjabi Jatt Male == Sikh Jatt or Hindu Jatt male. Just LOL. How do we know they tested Jats alone in this study, and not the generic Baniya/Gwala population of Haryana? What are you even posting?

          And do you honestly think I will give away things like my surname and gotra so that you can violate my privacy and try to DOXX me? I know how you guys work, and I’m not interested in proving anything to a stranger online, who for all I know, is nothing more than a Gujarati Troll simply assuming new identities to stir the pot and foment controversy. Believe what you want to believe, and if you are really brave, post your family’s pictures like I did. I don’t believe in tall claims and online trolls, I believe in what I can see with my own eyes and the concrete evidence. I am not here to satisfy your whims and desires. You can keep writing inane BS like you always do, it won’t change the facts my “Siwaya” friend.

          1. >You assume too much my friend. And linking to studies of “Haryanvi and Punjabi males” and generalizing it to Hindu Jats and others?

            I didn’t say that idiot. This is what I said “. I remember reading this paper which didn’t specifically mention Jats, but did mention the differing affinities of people from different states to broader populations and Haryanavis had lower affinities to both Australoids and Caucasians.” acknowledging that it didn’t separate castes, but it does make one think- in the state where eastern Jats are the most represented, the skulls on average ended up being more distinct. Can’t say something very specific about eastern Jats, but there is a pattern, which is going to be hard to verify since caste specific large scale measurements are very hard to come by.

            >How do we know they tested Jats alone in this study, and not the generic Baniya/Gwala population of Haryana?

            It doesn’t talk about specific castes, it looks at the population averages in a state and from that we can relate it to the different populations in the state. If you want the specifics, I linked a different paper which explicitly compared Jatt Sikhs to Banias.

            >What are you even posting?

            Something that you are proving yourself too stupid to understand.

            >And do you honestly think I will give away things like my surname and gotra so that you can violate my privacy and try to DOXX me? I know how you guys work, and I’m not interested in proving anything to a stranger online, who for all I know, is nothing more than a Gujarati Troll simply assuming new identities to stir the pot and foment controversy.

            I have no interest in DOXXing you, and the fact that you are reluctant to share even a small amount of information just further confirms my suspicious of your true identity. Oh trust me, if I wanted to expose you, ‘you’ as in your online self, not the irl identity (which I have no hard info on and don’t even care about) I would have listed your mainstream accounts already (no online anthroracialBSforum accounts btw, idk if you are even into that shit), but nah I am not interested in it. At the end of all of this I can guarantee that you are much more similar to the Gujarati trolls that live rent free in your head than I am, you’ll just have to live with it.

            > Believe what you want to believe, and if you are really brave, post your family’s pictures like I did. I don’t believe in tall claims and online trolls, I believe in what I can see with my own eyes and the concrete evidence.

            I am not stupid enough to put out info which can be tracked down easily. Seen this happen to hapless fools too many times to take the risk. Simply reverse googling gives the following results of similarity:

            https://universitas21.com/sites/default/files/2020-05/SCHAEPMAN_Michael.jpg

            https://78884ca60822a34fb0e6-082b8fd5551e97bc65e327988b444396.ssl.cf3.rackcdn.com/profiles/200/50416.jpg

            https://www.alberta.ca/assets/people/Cabinet-Dale-Nally_rdax_480x480_75.jpg

            https://ima-images.s3.amazonaws.com/67971.jpg

            Reconstruct him however you feel like.

            > I believe in what I can see with my own eyes and the concrete evidence.

            So your participation in topics that requires even minute abstraction is only a detriment. No wonder you stuck to your own dreamt ‘west Eurasian’ values.

  31. “It’s not just you. This phenotype discussion is a BP obsession. I find all of it rather pathetic.”

    totally agree kabir. when this new kid on the block APthk started raving about his almost-there white passing looks, i thought he was joking, but then i was hit by the reality. he was all serious!

    this guy may be 90% georgian passing or 95% azeri passing, but there is a single word that describes both his genotype and phenotype very succinctly. its called – chutiya.

    sorry, i have something of a jat mouth myself. 🙂

    1. I can pass as Italian or Latino or at least vaguely Middle Eastern. But I’ve never felt the need to.

      As I said, I have sometimes let people think i was Indian. I much preferred being told “I love Slumdog Millionare” than “Oh, but the Taliban oppress women!”. But that was not due to any discomfort with myself but out of a desire to be spared some ignorance.

      (Plus, it wasn’t really a lie. I am ETHNICALLY “Indian”. Two of my grandparents were even from what is today the Republic of India).

      1. So Indian is an ethnicity now? I presume you think its a race too. And that Pakistani is an ethnicity as well. These are the kind of people I’m wasting my time arguing with? There is no way to debate with dumb people, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

        1. “Indian” is not a race. Neither is “Pakistani”. Both are nationalities. But you could figure out from the context what I meant. I am not Indian by nationality but my ethnicity is the same as those of Indian nationals from the same region of the subcontinent.

          I was using shorthand but I guess you’re too triggered to appreciate that.

          1. You said, and I quote:

            “I am ETHNICALLY Indian” with emphasis on “ETHNICALLY” — are you dyslexic or just selectively ignorant?

            Also ethnicity doesn’t correlate to region in the subcontinent, then again you don’t know what you are talking about. If you know what your ethnicity is, why don’t you just list it? There is nothing to hide here.

            Also, I’m “triggered” when I’m just talking about the facts, plain and simple? What are you doing, writing nonsense and then trying to redact what you wrote unsuccessfully? You’re playing with fire my friend, you can’t win an argument that is a farce from the beginning. You don’t know how idiotic you sound in all of your posts. Or maybe you do, you’re just trolling for the laughs. With every post, you’re only proving my point, I’m wasting my time dignifying you and your ilk with a response.

          2. I emphasized “ethnically” to contrast with “nationally”. I am not nationally Indian. My parents were born in a sovereign Pakistan.

            And yes ethnicity does correlate with region. Punjab is a region and people who are native (on either side of the border) are Punjabi.

            I am totally Ok with the fact that I am a Pakistani and my ancestors were natives of BRITISH India (India being a social construct created in 1947).

            Your fight is not really with me. I don’t really care how you choose to identify. I do think your insistence on how physically distinct you are from other “South Asians” a bit amusing to say the least, but you do you.

    2. You’re right, I’m a Steppe Shudra who also happens to be a Chutiya and a “miscegenated lowlife” — a small correction, however. I dont like 90% or 95% of anything. I look 100% exactly like natives of these countries, as told to me by people from these places, and as I’ve seen myself. You either pass completely or you dont at all. There is no in-between here. Then again, I dont expect you to be familiar with this, given you can only pass in certain countries of South Asia as a native.

          1. Sorry just saw those.

            So based on the pics you posted, your are correct in that your family is atypical looking in India. But also seem lighter more non-Indian looking on than average for Jatts.

            Do you think thats accurate ?

            I know quite a few Sikh Punjabi Jatts not sure if they are real or fake or whatever. But most look within this range of jatt music videos like this one

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmS6fe2IxZA

            I guess for Haryanvi Jaats I don’t know any, but I found this video do you think its an accurate depiction of Hindu jats that you are talking about ?

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9WeupT4Ovg

  32. Antics like APthk’s is why in India if someone sees 3 people coming down a road, 1 of whom is Jat, they would say
    “Look, A Jat and 2 guys are coming”,
    taking care to differentiate the Jat from other humans.

    1. I’m loving these racist caricatures. Keep them coming, only shows how much you despise the fact that Jatts are/look so different from you guys. Envy and insecurity often rears its ugly head in the form of lampooning and bullying others. Doesn’t matter to me one bit.

      1. What racist caricatures?
        You claim that Jaats are different from other Indians and consider themselves so. Its Indians who falsely claim them as their own.

        I counter that Jats are even more different from other Indians than you make a case for and that other Indians know this and never ever claim Jatts are like them or any other humans.

        Whats racist in this? Jutts are a separate species and not a race. And that too probably an alien one.

        Please check out a few articles on Jatland Wiki if you have any doubts. Only para-human minds could have come up with something like that. It makes no sense to us ordinary humans. Its beyond us.

  33. APthk, if you want to talk about discrimination towards you and your family by Hindu upper castes who consider themselves ‘ritually pure’, that is fair and you are welcome to discuss it more. Although skin color and features is often a part of Hindu upper caste identifications, these groups have a more complex notion of identity, and can be discriminatory towards those not in their in group, no matter their skin color/features etc.

    However, you seem to be trying to do some kind of reverse racism by insisting that because Jats are distinct to other Indians, they are superior etc. This is pretty senseless. And there is no absolutely no evidence that regular Americans are ‘more accepting’ of Jats than other folks from the subcontinent. In fact, like the upper caste Hindu identification, ‘white’ in America is a complex identity, focused on descent from Western Europe and specific Anglo traditions.

    1. Quote where I said that Jats are “superior” — NOWHERE. This is projection and self-delusion at its finest.

      Also, are you selectively choosing to ignore the many genuine abuses/expletives and unfair, racist characterizations heaped on Jats by justanotherlurker and other people in this thread that are ACTUALLY racist?

      Whether Jats receive better treatment is not even under discussion, we can go back and forth all day and its your opinion vs mine unless we see peer-reviewed studies that show otherwise. What is under discussion is that they look distinct. That is a fact.

      This is why I tend to avoid these discussions, they always are one-sided, partial and end up leading to lots of drama by people who refuse to accept the truth. There is nothing more to add. May god give you the strength to accept the truth before its too late.

      1. lol okay bro. say hello to me like a man if you ever see me. And trust me, I have my share of fun in residency 😉 LMFAO reputable website. Which one? Name it. Never knew I was so popular. Lol what anthrogenica? The same one you shit on Dathang about. You are sad bro.

        And you have pretty severe racial dating hangups. All types of women like me and I like them. You have these weird ass phenotypic issues. Good for you. And trolling lol? My comments take me 5 min.

      2. there are no peer reviewed studies with a big enough sample size showing their entire diversity sufficiently that show the level of difference you are claiming. You literally claimed a common Baloch aka East Iranic look to Eastern Euro look. I don’t think you get how laughable that is. Use your own logic about the value we should put into academic literature and realize that you have none to support your nonsensical claims.

        And trust me I’ve been to Haryana enough. My Dad’s entire family is settled there and owns enough land. I’ve seen enough Hindu Jats in summers there as a kid. If anything, I think it is you who lacks perspective. Granted, you could be so delusional at this point that anyone who doesn’t fit the unrealistic phenotypic paradigm you created must be a “fake Jat.” That does sound like a Nazi-ish. But I’ll give you some benefit of the doubt and say that maybe you just haven’t met enough people.

        1. You just won’t stop trolling my Patel friend. Honestly though, the difference between a Mestizo and a Criollo is quite insane, so I’m really tickled that you think you can pass or that others have mistaken you for a Jatt, as you have claimed on this website many times. You didn’t even bother reading and answering any of the questions on my longer post to you, because you know whatever I wrote is true. Besides, the only reason you are wasting your time doing this in RESIDENCY is because you know deep inside that you wouldn’t dare say such things to us in real life to our faces, (not only because you wouldn’t even recognize us) but because you would be ashamed to do so after realizing just how wrong you are about your claims. This is a safe space for you and your followers to write BS and prop it up with anecdotal experiences and subjective claims that dont pass muster. Be my guest, keep entertaining yourself with foolish claims and have your followers prop them up with more of their own.

          I’m sure you’ve been to Haryana and met even more Hindu Jats than I have, despite me being a Jat and you being a Patel. Then again, there is no way to scientifically verify such arguments, anyone can claim to have “been to Haryana” and “to have been asked whether I was Jatt” or even “seen many Hindu Jatts during the Summers as a kid”. LMAO nothing but a bunch of made-up claims that we have no way of verifying. ANYONE can claim the same things online and there would be absolutely no way of knowing if he/she is telling the truth. You are just making up strawman claims to support your nonexistent argument when we are actually sharing our anecdotal experiences being Hindu Jats ourselves. A Patel is going to teach me about my own people? Laughable thought.

          Also, you say:

          “There are no peer reviewed studies with a big enough sample size showing their entire diversity sufficiently that show the level of difference you are claiming.”

          I assume there are peer-reviewed studies that show that Jats look more similar to neighboring populations likes Patels and Reddy then? (according to your claims) If so, I ‘d love to see them, because until then its your nonsense as a Patel against my personal lived experiences as a Hindu Jat. Of course, I have way more credibility than you do, it goes without saying. But you can keep spreading your BS lies everywhere and keep providing fodder for your juvenile fan base on here. I’m just here to put you and your ridiculous claims straight, don’t plan on staying here any longer and wasting time talking to people I’d never talk to in real life anyway. Especially people like you.

          I lack perspective? I’m delusional? I haven’t met enough people? A Patel like you who is an ABCD brought up in the US has met more Hindu Jats and knows more about my own people than I, a Hindu Jat, who has lived in NW India as a child knows about them? HAHA what a joke.

          BTW, did you take a look at the pictures I posted? I noticed you didnt really comment on either of them. You look just like those Indian kids in that picture with my younger sister (albeit a grown-up version) — not even the men in my family have even a passing resemblance to your mestizo face. You look nothing like any of those people. I’d love to see what your family looks like in comparison to them. Of course, I’m not really interested, it would just show people how different you are from us.

          1. I posited numerous times we meet in real life. Put your money where you mouth is. I’ll be in Austin early July, New York mid september, California in December, and Texas in February. Chicago for a weekend next month actually too. I’ll gave you a few hours to kill in morning. Let’s meet up. I’ll name a coffee spot, if you’re down. You can then see “how much of a pussy I am.” I will say the exact same thing again and again. Let’s hang out. See who is the real man ;). Heck I’ll even be nice a buy you a coffee. What do you like? Cafe americano?

            And yes that’s the point. The more AASI end of the Jat range does look like the “mestizos” you keep insulting. I also I am not Patel for the record. But that doesn’t matter. That’s just a generic insult you and your buddy “Raj Kumar” want to use to disparage me by associating me with a group you think of as below yourselves. Keep trying guys. Do better. If you’re both gay, I think you’d make good partners. You seem to have similar world views and personality dispositions. I can get ordained as a priest for the wedding. Razib can live browncast it. Social distancing compliant and all

          2. the “dreaded” MCAT isn’t that hard bro. And man all of the NW gang is here. Paindu, what are you referring to? Those Reich jatt Sikh samples? i’m not sure of the discussion. The mislabeling claims? I mean an alternative reputable paper can challenge those and showcase something else. Fine by me. What am I supposedly projecting?

            Man, I’m just giddy lol. Today is a blast from the past. After seeing so much death and sadness with COVID-19 surging, I finally get a good honest unfiltered set of laughs. Thank you guys.

          3. Ah, so you think “Patel” is an insult? Do you even know what that word means and what people are included under its umbrella? SO ironic that a Gujarati vania doesn’t even know what his associations are with people of his own ilk, and yet claims to know more than an actual Hindu Jatt about what Jatts look like. You just lost even more credibility. Sad, because you look like the many tens of millions of Patels that live in India and in the diaspora abroad. Gandhi himself wasn’t too different from you. You could also easily fit among Marwaris and other Rajasthani and Gujarati middle and lower-caste groups with that face of yours.

            But what really fascinates me is that “Patel” is an insult for you — NO ONE used it as such — you made this characterization yourself. This also implies that you think “Jatt” is some kind of honorary title, which explains your angst-ridden trolling on a plethora of websites all over the internet. This is so FUNNY! You hate looking like a Patel and having the same autosomal makeup as them, so you waste time writing inane nonsense on race forums (where you get banned because even a bunch of low-brown morons like them got sick of your antics) and so you decide to come here and shit all over the place with your absurd claims. You are so in denial and so beyond help that it is actually hilarious! And you think writing this drivel will change people’s DNA and facial appearance/race? Absolutely freaking hilarious.

            Your posts are nothing more than a litany of logical fallacies. Good exercise in logic for me, so I don’t mind putting you in your foolish place. Keep the BS coming, my “elite residency program” Patel friend. I bet that program of yours serves Slurpies on the regular. (Or maybe its a motel with a choppy internet connection.) Whip up one for me while you’re between orders, I’m getting thirsty reading through your BS posts that are nothing but the delusions of some Gujju Vania with too much time on his hands. On that note, I forgot, I have to throw out some of the frozen Theplas my neighbor gifted me without asking, hate that stuff.

          4. “I also I am not Patel for the record. But that doesn’t matter. That’s just a generic insult you and your buddy “Raj Kumar” want to use to disparage me by associating me with a group you think of as below yourselves. Keep trying guys. ”
            What I said.

            You understood it is “patel is an insult to you” and then went on some long rant. Please learn to read. No wonder the MCAT was so “dreaded” for you. Lmfao

            The key point being you think of the group below yourselves hence why you think of it as an insult. Lol most of my Guju friends are Patels. Man you are confused. One of my cousins is married to a Patel and took his last name.
            And yes Gandhi is quite similar to me. He is also a Guju Vania. I cluster most with Guju Vanias like Amit Shah and Gandhi and S Indian Brahmins especially Iyers on admix.

            Honestly what is funny is that we share 80% autosomal makeup. I have an extra or so 20% AASI and you steppe. So please get over yourself.

            And thepla are good. Your palate needs work too 😉

          5. Really though? Who is saying that “Patel” is a generic insult– YOU are. In fact, you are projecting your insecurities and internalized beliefs and biases onto that title and misconstruing it as an insult.

            NO ONE ever said Patels were some inferior group that were “below” anyone, you just had a Freudian slip that betrayed your true thoughts and feelings about the term/community — you are insecure to be a Patel for some reason I cannot fathom and waste your time online seeking validation from people who shouldn’t even matter to you. But of course they do matter to you, because you have a low self-opinion of yourself and your community and want to hear from others how you can pass as a “Jatt”. A proud Gujarati Vania would never have had such a negative though cross his mind, only those that are consigned to self-hate and inferiority from the outset even think like this. Case in point: people on this thread called Jats all sorts of names, yet I kept my cool and even accepted that I was a Steppe shudra, and this was despite the fact that there was explicit language and racist caricatures involved. including appalling terms for pariahs and outcasts. In your case, there was no name-calling and no explicit insults, yet you surmised that we were somehow “disparaging you” just by using a honorific like Patel — what this tells me is that you have a very low self-esteem and opinion of yourself and have a negative view of the community you belong to for some reason I cannot fathom. Now you are unsuccessfully trying to backpedal. It won’t fool anyone my Patel friend.

            Lets recap. A bunch of people addressed you with the title of Patel. You responded by saying “Thats just a generic insult….to disparage others that you think are below you” — I dont know how you arrived at that conclusion, because I definitely don’t see it as an insult, but you certainly construe it as one. I see it as a more general label/honorific for Gujarati vanias that are mostly Patidars back in the homeland, and many groups with diverse origins are a part of the Patel community. It is also the most ubiquitous surname among Gujarati Vanias in the diaspora.

            Its like if someone addressed me with the title “Singh” or “Pathak” (Hindu Jat surnames) and I responded by saying “That’s just a generic insult you guys use to disparage others like us that you think are below you” — how does one even make such a logical leap? I would never consider it to be an insult, and would only make such a deduction if I was ashamed to be a Jat, had insecurities about my identity, believed that others looked “down upon” me, believed most of it to be true to some extent, and thus would conclude that the epithet was being used in a negative light.

            Which describes you perfectly — I guess you are a self-hating troll who truly despises his roots, which is why you always want to make nonsensical claims about being mistaken for Jatt. I have yet to see a Jatt claim to be mistaken for a Patel. I’m sure you have “met” some, however just like you seem to know more Hindu Jatts than a Jatt himself.

            Keep up the illogical trolling. You’ve already shown you lack common reading comprehension skills, you’re only further proving my point that your “elite” residency program is nothing more than a glorified Slurpee shop with an internet connection. People these days, really make me laugh.

          6. “you think of below yourselves” is the critical part you ignoramus. And you proved it post hoc over and over again.
            Your motel and slurpee comments prove it over and over again. You are racist. Plain and simple. I have exposed you. Instead you straw man and misquote. No one is buying it. Continue doing that. You show why standardized tests are hard for you over and over again. You show how hollow your own views and arguments are when you engage in logical fallacy after fallacy. And let’s say I’ve taken care of enough corona patients in this slurpee shop. We serve some nice Il-6 inhibitors, remdesivir, and a nice dose of corticosteroids. I’ve seen some psychosis from the latter. You remind me of that.

            And btw I brought up your buddy Raj in my implication of “you and your beliefs’ above. He is at least more intellectually honest with his racial views. He is actually further into Step 1 in my 3 step whisperer program.

            And yeah a lot of Patels look like me. They average cluster Gujarati D but have a huge range. I cluster Gujarati B/C. The genotypes and phenotypes overlap a lot. Your point is?

          7. No one is disparaging anyone here but the other people that have made fun of Jatt Sardars and other Punjabis. You also have a hard-on for “disparaging” Patels based on your own comments. And if pointing out mere probabilities and likelihoods is “racist” then so are you — towards Mirpuris and other people by that logic.

            It is a mere fact that Gujaratis own the most motels in America, as well as the most 7/11 stores, and pointing this out doesn’t “expose” a “racist” mindset, just like pointing out that Mirpuris have some of the lowest educational attainment rates and highest rates of crime in the UK and are thus more likely to be incarcerated is not racism.

            Also the irony is truly HILARIOUS. You are the same guy that has thousands of posts on a famous Neo-Naziesque “Race Reality’ forum like Anthroscape, where you have made FAR worse comments about other communities and used explicit language to disparage them, and yet here you are accusing others of being “racist” for not doing anything of the sort. You are the one that is delusional and off his meds, not me. Anyone can Google anything online and claim to be a Physician. You can just as likely be a nurse treating Corona patients. No one is buying your tall claims about trolling people online while in an “Elite” residency, which is why I alluded to the fact that the probability is far higher that you are engaged in some low-brow occupation to make ends meet. Your mental gymnastics and poor reading comprehension and foolish observations and attempts at redaction only serve to further bear this out.

            You also like making assumptions about what Hindu Jatts should and do look like, despite not presenting any evidence to back up your foolish arguments. At least I posted pictures and can offer my own perspective as a Hindu Jatt myself. What can you offer? Nothing but juvenile ad hominems, red herrings, non-sequiturs and follish commentary. You should have been banned a long time ago.

          8. there are people on here that have my social media and know me. But keep saying nonsense. And all I did is challenge the racists on that forum constantly. I trolled them back pretty hard at points for lulz. And you are calling my hospital a slurpee shop. Once again learn to read. Your racism is clear as day. Keep spewing nonsense. It will push you deeper into Step 1 of my program. It is actually my intention you do so. Confronting the reality of your hatred is important. Don’t worry. I will stand by you through your exorcism.

            I splash you with metaphorical online lassi as I utter “Jai shree ameen. May Bhagwan cleanse your soul! Demon be gone!”

          9. You’re also the same guy that has confronted me directly and asked to “meet up” so that you can see “who the real man is” — then you go on to suggest that the other Mirpuri character and I could be gay partners. What am I to make of this? Your tone and the context in which you wrote the aforementioned certainly implies that you possess homophobic views. See what I did there? I could also make alternative logical leaps and conclude that you are discreetly proposing a threesome and a three-way gay orgy, or I could also assume that you are threatening me and asking me to meet you in real life under the veil of “polite” conversation so that you can, ostensibly, do far worse. I don’t know man, I don’t trust people who dont even have decent reading comprehension skills and have a chip on their shoulder because of massive insecurities about their identity.

            You’re also the same guy who makes all kind of assumptions without any data to back it up, and when someone makes the same assumptions about you, you take it personally and start crying foul. Case in point: when I mentioned that your claims of being a MD are mostly likely false (just like you like making all kinds of crazy assumptions about things as varied as my sexuality,. “manliness”, mental state, appearance, intelligence, potential to succeed in life and lack of success with women, among other disparate issues) and that you are more likely to be working in a far more low-brow occupation that requires little mental exertion, like a convenience store or even a front desk worker at a Motel, (and you dont seem to understand satire either, everyone knows that Hospitals dont serve Slurpees, but my implication there was that you are not even working in one to begin with) you started taking offense and accusing me of being “racist” — when anyone can see plain and simple, that an occupation such as this is a much more likely possibility, given a confluence of factors at hand, including your inordinate attempts at trolling, low-IQ posts and lack of critical thinking skills and suspicious amounts of free time during a Pandemic, along with the available statistics that show that Gujaratis are far more likely to be involved in such occupations in America. You’re allowed to make far-reaching assumptions without any evidence, but others aren’t? Why is that so, my Patel friend?

            Furthermore, as I’ve said many times before, you are the same guy that was banned from a Neo-nazi-esque Race Reality forum like Anthroscape, after writing thousands of posts, many of which explicity disparage Jats and other communities and use virulently racist and offensive language, of which you were a prime offendor. You have also displayed that bias here, when you had a Freudian slip that betrayed your opinion of Patels, when you not only claimed not to be a Patel but went on to state that you consider it to be used as a “generic insult” by well-meaning third parties like yours truly. Further, you continued to promulgate your intolerance and racist views, when you went on to add that the honorific was used in a negative light to “disparage” people that others think are “below them” — again, you have yet to provide evidence for this claim, last I checked, you can’t read our minds. The only logical explanation for that wild assumption, myriad logical leaps, and your virulently racist claim is that you PERSONALLY think that Jats and other communities use “Patel” as an “insult” to disparage others because according to your OWN views and your OWN opinion, Jats think that Patels are below them, (where is the evidence for this? who said this? why do you even care what Jats think? Because you want their validation and respect and because you yourself pedestalize them? Why? They just look different) and according to your own deduction and biases, you believe in some sort of racial hierarchy where Patels are at/near the bottom and Jats higher up (who has implied this? Which Jat has claimed this? I never said anything to that effect) and so when you see someone use the term, its confirmation bias at play, which along with your predilection for projection, self-hate, delusion and lack of reading comprehension and absence of critical thinking leads to you surmising that the term is being used as an insult. How many times do you want me to analyze your rhetoric and syntax? Are your truly that dense and delusional? You make some truly foolish (and hilarious) deductions about others. You can’t even construct a coherent argument without weakening your own viewpoints and claims, what a desperate fool.

            Also, by your logic of calling us “racists”, one could also claim that you are racist, ethnocentric, classist, sexist, homophobic, heterophobic, judgmental, insensitive, intellectually dishonest, and many, many other things based on your glorious past at Anthroscape and your garbage-filled posts on this forum. Again, you shouldn’t be allowed to pollute this forum with your trolling. GO away, Mr. Patel, and take your retinue of trolls with you, including the ones that know you on social media and can “vouch” for the fact that you work in a “hospital” where you have plenty of “breaks” to offer your trollish perspective on how you can pass as a Jatt to people. How is business today? Not too many customers?

        2. All these Patels, Punjabi Sikhs, Jats are all washed up cowards in real life. They’re only tough in front of bania brahmin hindus or some dalit caste Indians but defecate in their pants at the site of average black guys walking into their stores all day. What is the point of trying to be tougher than Indian people. They’re generally the most cowardly weak type people Ive met in real life. Same goes for many Arabs too in real life and east asians also. Even the Pakistani Punjabis are cowards in Britain who live in gated areas of London trying to play gangster all day. All the dangerous parts of Britain are where Mirpuris live at all. Its the Mirpuris who fight black guys in jail and white guys on the roads. Where are all these Punjabi and Indian jat losers then? Ive seen countless race attacks on Sikhs in America and parts of Canada being mistaken for Arabs, where is there toughness then? Its all internet talk until the riots kick off and the fist have to come out. In all incidences its generally Mirpuri men who saved the South Asians, Arabs, Somalis from Islamophobia attacks by Nazis. The Muslim Defense League is filled with Pakistani Mirpuris in Britain. No Arab or Gujarati Patel in sight in any of these gangs or groups and its generally white females who hang around in Pakistani areas and going to the boys houses and shagging the boys for a 40 ounce and some cocaine. 90% of white females in Britain are Pakki shaggers and those white boys can riot as much as they want and it won’t stop because it white females going to the boys houses all day like Tommy Robinsons sister use to too

    1. Most entertaining thread in a while.

      The whole gang has chimed in and there’s been a masterful Kabir face-off.

      I hope Xerxes stumbles here to inform us he can pass as Iranian.

      1. [I hope Xerxes stumbles here to inform us he can pass as Iranian.]
        Only when he is lean, as he has told us before although he is half Persian 🙂

      2. Agree…We even got (a much mellowed) thewarlock back..

        And we have accusations of racism from an extreme Jatt pride guy 🙂

        1. lol this guy is so entertaining. It’s beautiful. I think I know him from my anthrofora BS days. These people are not be reasoned with. Data doesn’t matter and when anecdote like agitation is brought up, then it is a bunch of “fake jatt” excuses or “cherry picking.” The cognitive dissonance is troubling at first but hilariously sad after you realize the person is beyond help. This guy was known for this behavior before. He is a disturbed dude.

          1. @thewarlock
            I wouldn’t project too much. This apthk individual is not who you discussed those Reich Jatt Sikh samples with. Technically, they aren’t from Reich either as they were taken from a different medical paper and their IBD (ie identity by descent which indicates shared ancestors) sharing indicates they overlap genetically with scheduled castes of Haryana like Chamars, Balmiki, etc.
            Anyways, you argued that they were representative by appealing to authority (Harvard/Reich) and that Jatt Sikh data on G25 is unrepresentative based on your perception that phenotypically West Eurasian shifted individuals tend to test more. Wouldn’t call that cognitive dissonance. More like a different of opinion.

          2. Wrong assumption. You think you know who I am but you have no idea. I was never a member on any race forum nor do I have the time to do so, I was too busy studying for the dreaded MCAT. I only know about you from reading some threads at another fairly reputable website that deals in genetics and not fairy tale discussions about who passes where. They kept mentioning a Gujarati Vania guy infamous on “Race forums” who likes showing up everywhere to claim that Jats look like Patels and other groups that are not Biradri communities. So when you wrote your nonsense up there, I surmised it must have been you and recognized you from your syntax and choice of words. Really hilarious how you are still trolling in RESIDENCY — I’d be banging nurses and working out, not worried about what Hindu Jats look like, which is something you cant change by writing a bunch of drivel online. Thank god the STEP 1 is P/F. Maybe I’ll bump into you at some medical conference and you wont even know that I recognize you but I’ve seen your face and most definitely will. Stop trolling, Jats are distinct genetically and phenotypically, leave them alone.

          3. @warlock

            Chill man. We’re not some cohesive group. I don’t know Apthk and nor do I agree with 98% of what he writes. Yes, I’m referring to those Jatt Sikh samples (who were taken from a separate medical study done before the Reich paper). As I pointed out, those samples had high levels of IBD sharing with scheduled caste groups of Haryana (ie chamars and dalits) per the original paper. See the .pdf below:

            https://media.nature.com/original/nature-assets/ng/journal/v49/n9/extref/ng.3917-S1.pdf

            AFAIK, these scheduled castes of Haryana aren’t related to Jatt Sikhs so not sure why they would share recent ancestry/ancestors (that’s what IBD sharing indicates). In contrast, IBD sharing with other Punjabis logically makes sense for Jatt Sikhs.

            Anyways, it was a while back but you more or less disregarded the Jatt Sikh coordinates on G25 as being unrepresentative (in comparison to the samples Reich used) based on more “curious” West Eurasian shifted individuals doing genome testing. The projection comment was in relation to presuming Apthk and that person you debated with previously are one in the same person. If you weren’t suggesting that, perhaps I misread you.

            Anyways, I think I’ve had enough BP’s to last me the summer.

    1. @Saurav
      Speaking as someone who is actually part of the Jatt Sikh diaspora (my family has been here a long time in both the US/Canada), I can assure you Apthk does not represent us. He is a caricature of a caricature.

      There is self-pride and then there is just sheer stupidity. Many Jatt Sikhs (diaspora or in Punjab) have an inherent pridefulness or boastful attitude whether warranted or not but nothing like what apthk posts. It’s more related to Punjabiyat and while many do not like to associate with India (but still identify as South Asian), that is more political (think partition and 1984 related). Nothing to do with phenotype/genetics as the vast majority have layman’s knoweldge when it comes to phenotype or genetics.

      I will not speak for Hindu Jaats of course but AFAIK, the ones I interacted consider themselves Indian and some of them are arguably even Hinduvta in thinking. They might be excessively proud to be Jaats but still identify as Indian/Hindu.

      1. Yeah this is so weird. Some time back, i commented, that in Haryana, you would come across individuals who looked relativity un-Indian. Of course some of them were Jatts. For example someone like Indian wrestler Geeta Phogat. But her own sisters looks pretty Indian to me. Perhaps i must have come across sikh jats who look different, but subconsciously we see sikhs as “different” (in a positive sense) already, so it must not have registered.

        One of the ironic thing was till today, just like u, i used to associate jatt pride mostly with sikh jatts (on the punjabi music scene) and muslim jats (of Pakistani fame) . Out of the 3, the Hindu jats i felt were the least gung-ho on the whole thing. The seemed the most inclined to Indian/Hindu.
        I guess u learn something new, every day.

        1. Geeta Phogot doesn’t look particularly non-Indian or South Asian to me. However, that is relative to what my perception of what constitutes a standard “South Asian” look. She wouldn’t be seen as West Asian leaning among Punjabi biradari groups. However, her husband Pawan Saroha seems to have a bit of a South Central Asian shifted look (think Pashtun).

          Coincidentally, I actually know a Hindu Jaat who is Phogot from Canada. There are a decent amount of them in Brampton (despite it being Punjabi/Jatt Sikh dominated).
          I can’t speak to your anecdotal example but there are Jatt Sikhs in Haryana (particularly border areas + Ambala as well some parts of rural Haryana where Jatt Sikh villages have existed alongside Hindu Jaats for a long time; some of these Jatt Sikhs were actually Hindu Jaat not too long ago). However, in general, the vast majority of Jaats/Jatts in Haryana are Hindu.

          Finally, with regards to Jatt pride, AFAIK, it is definitely loudest among Sikhs. I mean at least 50% of the Punjabi music scene is dedicated to songs about Jatts (they cater to their demographics/demand).

          Hindu Jaats can have this pride too (especially from what I’ve seen online or negative examples such as honor killings in Haryana/West UP) but it is not as “gung-ho” as you described it. Nor is it intricately tied to Haryanviyat (the way Jatt Sikh pride is tied to Punjabiyat). I am not as familiar with Muslim Punjabi Jatts but some of they are overly proud/boastful as well based on my exchanges with Pakistanis.

          On a separate now, based on my own experiences, you’re much more likely to come across a Hindu Jaat who would have no problem describing Jatt Sikhs in the diaspora as Khalistanis and support Hinduvta related politics than you are someone like Apthk.

          1. Yeah i think my view of a standard south asian look perhaps varies because i include a bit more of OBC/Dalits etc, groups who one would not encounter much in the diaspora. Understandable. BTW I looked up Phogat husband, and yeah u are right he looks even more un-indian than her. LOL.

            I do understand aspects of the Hindu Jat pride. But in my experience it was devoid of “Hindu” connotation and was more focused on “Jat” part. This type of pride politics has been part and parcel of Haryana/Western up/Rajasthan. But only very recently has “Hindu” part of it find salience. That’s y i am bit puzzled on “Hindu-Jat” part. I mean if one want’s a clean break from India/Indians and doesnt want to be seen with other N-Indian groups y not give up the “Hindu” part as well and just identify as Jat. Its actually much easier and several Indian groups already do it.

            On Hindu Jats and Khalistani stuff, i agree. Unfortunately that type of behavior is not limited to Hindu Jats, and its sad that there hasn’t been closure on Hindu-sikh tensions in India. Perhaps some closure there would help mend relations in the diaspora community as well.

        2. Understandable. My interaction with South Asians in the diaspora is overwhelmingly limited to Punjabis, Gujaratis and Tamils (Brahmins in Bay Area and non Brahmins in Canada). After that, it’s probably a mix of Pakistanis (Punjabis + Muhajirs) and Bangladeshis.

          From my experiences, many Hindu Jaats can be divided into two groups. Those who are almost fanatically Hindu (Hinduvta leaning) and very pro-Indian and those who identify as Jaat before Hindu and tend to either be irreligious or non-practicing. Quite a few Hindu Jaats are Arya Samaj as well I believe. There are likely quite a few in the middle (between Hinduvta and irreligious) but this is a generalization.

          Regarding Khalistan, I was just using it as an example. The issue is far more complicated than just diaspora Sikhs + “some” Indian Sikhs vs. Indian Sikh/Indian Hindus. Ultimately, I think the issue can go as far back as partition (which inevitably caused a culmination of events that led to 1984). Unfortunately, the current political climate in India doesn’t indicate it will have closure any time soon.

  34. @DaThang
    Where are you getting the 32% AASI estimate for SIS BA2? The previous SIS BA3 was at 42%. Is the 32% the average of all the SIS BA2 (including the original SIS BA3) samples? I thought it would be lower than that.
    Based on previous runs I’ve seen on anthrogenica, Hindu Jaats and Ror are mostly in the 16.5-19% range for AASI while Jatt Sikhs are around 18-20%. Northern/Northeast Pashtuns are around 14-15%.

    Also, if anyone wants an actual account of some South Asian/Jatt dynamics in North America, you would probably want to talk to a Jatt Sikh in California (Yuba City/Bay Area) or Canada (Surrey/Brampton).

    The one thing I will agree with Apthk on is that Hindu Jaats/Jatts are not very common in the West compared to their Sikh counterparts. I’ve met a few before but I didn’t realize they were Jaats at first glance as they didn’t really look Punjabi (think more east/south of it).

  35. The whole gang has chimed in and there’s been a masterful Kabir face-off.

    this thread is basically like avengers: endgame. the whole gang is here for the face-off

    kabir is like captain marvel showing up with her lesbian superwomen. or something.

    i wish you guys would show each other more charity (idk, perhaps even bentwig, he’s just not capable of more than he does already). i think athpak or whatever isn’t racist as such, just kid of artless in the way he says what he says, which is his personal experience. and i guess we need to chill on the jat sardar jokes. it’s not nice.

  36. I’m bored with this particular topic since I don’t really care at all about phenotypic differences. But if anyone criticizes Pakistan or Islam, they can best believe I’ll be there to put forward the Pakistani point of view.

    the only true muslims in pakistan are jat syeds.

    1. I know you’re being sarcastic.

      97% of Pakistan’s population is Muslim. Whatever phenotypic differences there are between Pakistani ethnic groups pale in comparison to this very important demographic fact.

      1. @Kabir

        There is a “religion” genetic calculator on Vahaduo using people’s G25 coordinates. I’m “technically” Sikh (more irreligous than anything) but I come back as 81% Sunni Islam Pashtun, 10% Hindu UP Brahmin and 5% Christian/Catholic of an unknown background (maybe South Indian Syrian Christian?). The rest is tribal folklore from Siberia or Saami. Forgot which one.

          1. @thewarlock
            Post your coordinnates in the target tab and then run on distance, single or multi. It’s really just a modern populations calculator with the religions of each reference population listed next to them.

            http://g25vahaduo.genetics.ovh/Religion_G25_calculator.htm

            It’s for fun more than anything. Since there is no Sikh population and the closest Hindu population is an UP Brahmin, it’s obvious I would come back as mostly Muslim from Pakistan.

          1. what does “pappu” mean? I thought it was an insult used to disparage Rahul Gandhi

          2. @thewarlock
            The urban dictionary “definition” of pappu is related to an inept or highly introverted individual. However, I’ve seen people use it in a disparaging manner to refer to someone who is stereotypically South Asian in terms of phenotype and/or behavior.

            I personally used it relation to a stereotypical South Asian “look.”

          3. thanks for clarifying. I thought you were dissing me. Regardless, I think because of multiple definitions perhaps “stereotypical S Asian look” would have sufficed. Chance you will be misconstrued is less.

            Where would you have guessed me from? Gujarat?

    2. only true whites are Jat Hindus apparently 😉

      I am a supposedly a Mestizo by APthk’s definitions. I suppose you are too?

      1. @thewarlock
        I have the Harappa results + pictures of some Hindu Jaats that mimic the G25 results of Hindu Jaats and Ror. Likely less than 20% AASI and around 35-40% Steppe. Phenotype and genotype can really be wild sometimes. Some of these individuals pass better in Bihar or South India than they do among certain Punjabi groups.

        They would probably give Apthk a heart attack.

        1. Not really, I’ve seen it all my Jatt Sikh friend. I’ve also said many times before, Hindu Jatts range from very dark and ethnic looking to very fair and “White” looking, and Jatt Sikhs in my experience are in the same boat. Of course more tend to look like the latter than the former, but I never claimed that they all looked less ethnic, just that they had a distinct look. I’ve also seen Jatt Sikhs that have the very ethnic/ambiguous Sindhi/Balochi look that is very similar to some generic South Asians, but even they have differences at the end of the day and never look identical. If you think you can “prove” something here you are wrong my friend. Nothing new under the sun for me.

          1. @Apthk

            You’re entitled to your opinions. I just want to point out that you do not speak for diaspora Jatts (who are mostly Jatt Sikh). Neither do I. Nor do you necessarily speak for all diaspora or Indian Hindu Jaats.

            I’m not here to prove how anyone looks nor do I care for phenotype discussions. I have a very good idea of how Jatt Sikhs look and a solid idea regarding Hindu Jaats (have friends and family that have grown up in India and met some myself). It just happens to be quite different than yours.

          2. preparing for boards? I rocked all my STEPs and I’m at an elite program. Not really sure what you are getting at here? If anyone is spending an inordinate amount of time trolling, it is you with your massively long comments.

            Don’t strawman. Just realize people are arguing the phenotypic overlap is much greater between even the quite steppe shifted Jatts and other, often quite genetically middling, S Asian groups than the stuff you are saying about a Baloch to Georgian common range. It is more of a reddy to “iranicesque” range with a few major outliers further out. No one has ever argued they are identical lmfao. But yeah keep up the ad hominem.

            People’s experiences don’t compare to yours one iota. I’m glad you relish in, if what you are saying about people blabbering about me is in fact true, racialist gossip about me. I take up space rent free in their insecure minds. I clearly do in yours too. Again, if you see me in person, we can chat and perhaps clear up some of these differences in opinion. Join one of the brownpundit skype calls on here in this Corona era.

          3. Let’s examine radically diff genes comments. I am say 15% steppe, 35% AASI, 50% Iranic related.

            You are 15% AASI, 35% steppe, and 50% Iranic related.

            Okay say 20% of your steppe is AASI for me.
            Wow what a radical diff…

            And again phenotype is a moot point. Only a relatively few number of loci, compared to whole genome, control phenotype. So biasing looks towards one aspect of an ancestry or another is pretty common. Hence, even within nuclear S Asian families, big differences can be seen.

            Anyway, I just see you as someone of convenience. You said earlier you want to lay claim to your AASI ancestry in order to take pride in all the great S Asian artists, scientists, etc in history. Yet you want to claim white racial status because you think it will give you a leg up in American society. I mean go for it man.

            I think you are extremely wrong about the role of race in the American mindset. It matters but not the way you think it does. I am sorry if you have felt excluded based on your phenotype by other more.conventional looking S Asians. I would have not rejected you based on that. But if you were spouting these “street shitter” insults, yes then I would.

          4. “banging nurses”
            “fornicating with women”
            “need to find Hindu Jat girl”
            “need to find Caucasian girl”

            Lol bro you sound a little frustarted. I think your time could be better spent going outside and talking to people. Indirectly sharing your incelish inclinations will not win you any points, even online.

            Heck if you take up my bet and choose to meet up in real life, maybe I can even help you out with women and introduce you to perhaps even a Jat girl, if you are nice. Granted, if you come off as on the autism spectrum in real life as you done on there, well ain’t nobody got time for that. But don’t worry. I won’t leave you hanging. Even from my modest income, I can afford to spot you a couple hundred for an escort.

        2. exactly. Hence why I am not sure why he is surprised a pan brown looking dude like me has been asked if he was one. Jatts go around and ask a lot of just generic browns that, from what I’ve seen. I have been asked enough times if I am from AP and Bengal too. Like it’s not a big deal.

          1. @thewarlock
            I can’t speak for your experiences but you likely have a much better chance at passing or being mistaken as a Hindu Jaat rather than a Jatt Sikh in the diaspora. Not that it matters. You’ll find very phenotypically South Asian shifted individuals in both groups.

            I mean Jatt Sikhs have their “pappu” types too but it’s just at a higher percentage among Hindu Jaats.

            Personally, I am interested more in autosomal/haplogroup genetics rather than phenotype though. You can have wild phenotypical variation within the same family. Genetics tend to be more homongeneous or at the very least less extreme among endogamous ethno-religious groups.

          2. Sure my friend. You were unable to “Redeem” yourself on that trash website (I’m presuming that you went on a crusade there to prove that Jats and other biradri groups are no different from generic South Asians after someone told you otherwise, and you felt the need to “redeem” yourself by proving that your nonsensical opinion had some susbtance to it.) Of course, you got banned after making what I can only assume are inane and stupid comments that amount to petty trolling, just like the ones you make here. Now you have a new avatar — “thewarlock” because you intend to go to “war” with NW Biradri groups that have radically different genes and phenotypes than Gujarati Vanias like you, in some insane and absurd attempt to cyberbully them into accepting that they look just like a Patel or Reddy and in a vain attempt to portray them as some uncouth insecure morons that think they look different, when in “reality”, according to you, they dont.

            Your childish games wont prove anything — your time is better served preparing for the boards and fornicating with women — because anyone with two eyes and a brain can see just how different Hindu Jats are from other communities in the subcontinent, including people like yourself. Don’t play these immature games, they wont change the facts Dr Saab.

          3. @thwarlock
            No, that was not my intention. In fact, I only mentioned you passing better as Hindu Jaat rather than Jatt Sikh because, imo, Hindu Jaats are typically more South Asian looking on average. The “pappu” part wasn’t meant for you but only to emphasize that there are a segment of Hindu Jaats and even Jatt Sikhs that can look very stereotypically “South Asian.” It was poor wording on my part.

            I do vaguely remember how you look but I wouldn’t call it “pappu.” To me, that’s meant for someone even more “South Asian” shifted in phenotype (even if you were to think you’re the poster boy for looking South Asian; I’d disagree). Outside of Gujarat, I would have probably guessed Southern Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh or parts of Uttar Pradesh.

          4. Plenty of Sikh Jatts look like “pappus” too, but I don’t think it means anything. According to what I have seen, thewarlock cannot pass as either Sikh or Hindu Jatt. But if you are conflating the more ethnic HIndu Jatts with a Patel’s face, then I suppose it is fair to say that the ethnic Jatt Sikhs look just as similar to the Gujarati dude in question. After all, both groups have their fair share of such types with much overlap. However, none look like subcontinental generic castes in my experiences, so you are really off there.

        3. lol the guy brings up odd irrelevant remarks about how I should be not using my time to counter his baseless assumptions, when he can’t counter the basic things I have said, he uses strawman constantly.

          I never claim to be Jatt.
          I never claim that Jatts look identical to other S Asians on a group level.
          I never fake my ethnic origins.

          What I do is challenge assertions, which often do come from irrational racialists places, about the unrealistic degree of nonoverlap that is proclaimed by some online racialist NW trolls. Usually they are in their own echochambers. About 4 years ago, I went to one of those and routinely challenged their BS. Looks like they are still salty.

          AP seems like one of them. He has said he will run into me. I hope he actually introduces himself. Hopefully, hiding behind anonymity and writing these romance novellas about his love for the Caucasian race might even get old for him after awhile.

          I think he has stalked me for awhile. He claims to recognize my writing from its syntax, quite interesting indeed. I feel like a celebrity. I love to meet fans.

  37. I think I know where the APthk dude is coming from perhaps, my kids are half Indian and half white in their late teens. Proud to be of Indian decent, but are never accepted in Indian American friend groups no matter how hard they try. They look ‘too white’ and there is some brown racism there. It’s fine one-on-one, but not in a large group at an event. Never figured out how to solve the issue.They are fully accepted within the extended family. This discourse by APthk is perhaps a reactionary observation of where someone is accepted and hence that’s where one belongs…. amongst his biradri and those that look like him….

    1. yeah maybe I just don’t get it. All browns tend to be cool with me in those S Asian circles. Must be my genericness

  38. yeah maybe I just don’t get it. All browns tend to be cool with me in those S Asian circles. Must be my genericness

    you are the alpha and omega of the brown man.

    the ultimate.

    all is warlock

    1. wow..references and fights from other (crazy?) anthro forums..
      this a thread that keeps on giving 🙂

      1. lol those were funny days. I think this guy sits and reads through all my posts. I’m glad they bring out so much raw emotion in him. I didn’t realize the work of triggering art they quite were, until now.

        1. Most Mirpuris are not brown at all
          There is a bunch of Mirpuris in a birmingham gang video in britain
          They look nothing like Indian people in general and many comment section people say the Mirpuri rapper swoop ghazi can pass as an Albanian which is odd but most Mirpuris in bradford and birmingham look nothing like Indian people and definitely don’t act like Indian people either. Indians are stereotypical nerds who keep thinking its just their brown skin which holds them back into getting females but in reality, its their nerdy sissy nature and weak limp wrist mentality in Britain. I don’t see Pakistanis ever complaining about getting white females. You have Pakistani rappers like Frenzo Harami who brags about pimping white females to the point all the white pot belly boys went to the British radio station and wanted his songs taken down. I don’t see Afghan guys complaining about getting females. Even 75% of Arabs I met are brown and so are Hispanics, Polynesians, Pacific landers. All the Algerians in Britain are darker skinned than the Mirpuris too and they never complain about getting white females. Neither do Libyans or any other brown race of men. Lets be realistic like Gucci Khan said in his video. Most indian guys are little nerds who even let midget Latino weaklings push them around in America and even the weak little white boys push you Gujarati patel guys around which is why groups like dot busters existed in America. The Muslim Defense League in Britain is full of Pakistanis who smash skulls on sidewalks all day. To even put Pakistani guys as weak and undesirable as Indian dravidian mixed Gujarati patel pot belly weaklings with fist strength is laughable to say the least. The Pakistanis in Britain are second most after black guys in getting white females. Okcupid said black men do worse than East Asian guys in America but in real time we know this isnt true at all. Those American surveys make no sense. It says black women picked all races of men on Okcupid over black men but most black women I know in real life don’t want to date out. Also there is british dating websites like AYI which puts white guys last. Also white guys are generally losers and most white females know this too in the northern towns
          This below is literally 98% of white guys vs Pakistani guys
          https://youtu.be/KKzItjpX5Mc

          This is why the term Pakki shagger exist in Britain so much but not Indian shagger or Arab shagger.

          1. lmfao troll sensor beeping again. Man you guys really come out of the woodwork all at once. Did the clown convention really just make a stop at brownpunditsland. This is too good to be true. All of my favorite types of people in one place on the same place. Maybe there is a God. The same discussions loop over and over. Lol facts are just pointless to bring up. Granted, you are actually a pretty funny troll dude. I actually chuckled at some of this. Keep up the good work!

          2. …and here I was thinking the Mirpuris I see in the midlands are just a jolly bunch who’ve cornered the taxi and take-out business with a bit of dealing weed on the side. You’ve opened my eyes!

            “They look nothing like Indian people in general”
            Thank goodness for that!

            You’re a real fount of wisdom, keep it flowing mate 🙂

    2. absolutely. And AP is the same for the White Man.

      AASI Lives Matter
      Steppe Lives Matter
      Indus Lives Matter

  39. fwiw, i had two half-brown (bangladeshi) friends. one of them basically is white (green eyes, etc.). there was some implicit and weird racism that i saw him experience. less than his browner (fair, but still tan) brother. it’s not huge, so i don’t get athpak but he’s got his own experience.

    1. Raj kumar and AP. Today is Christmas so you must be Santa. You did get my wish list after all!

      Is Kabir Rudolph?

      1. Why are you bringing me up in this context? I am completely opposed to this racialist discourse (no matter who does it).

        I have my issues with most of you. I despise the Hindu Right. But these people with their rhetoric about Mirpuris being the “master race” or whatever are equally sick. I have zero time for racialist thinking.

  40. that being said, i don’t get the “you are brown i am white and i am accepted like you will never be” attitude either. i’m not white so perhaps all the white ppl i know, including all my friends, my wife, all the friends i grew up with, didn’t really accept me, idk. as a social science matter i am curious about different perceptions of white passing brownz and very dark brownz who are often confused for black. i think this is an effect on the margin, and for most people shouldn’t change their being and perception

    1. Yeah I don’t really get all of his saltiness about exclusion. He says Eastern Euro people are nice to him. I mean they are nice to me too. Heck even my FOB parent’s are really good friends with a polish couple around their age and are now planning a trip to Warsaw together. I really don’t understand all of this hate this guy experienced. He talks about how his family isn’t racially bullied because they look White. But then he complains all day long about non acceptance aka bullying from groups of Browns. In some ways, by his power paradigm, that is actually more sad. I think these guy must be spewing the same stuff here perhaps in real life. I can then see why he puts people off. He needs to chillax. If his lack of tact on here is even a tiny fraction of what it is in real life, I can totally also see how his own projections manifest back in his mind in an endless loop of confirmation bias.

      1. Its Pakistani Mirpuris in Britain who fight white and black guys on the road. Look up the Lozell riots, the black guys started it and the Mirpuris killed the black guys literally. Look at the bradford riots at least 200 police officers were injured with almost 15 million dollars of property damage. This is more than the baltimore riots in America for black people who didn’t hurt any police officers. Also most MMA leagues in Britain are filled with Pakistani Mirpuris, look up solid impact combat challenge, UKMMA. At least 50% of the fighters on the roster are Mirpuris from different weight divisions. Also most Mirpuris in Britain look like Meggy Khan, Sham Idrees, Gucci Khan with colored eyes and fair skin. They look nothing like Indian people in general. Even Iraqis look more Indian in Britain than Mirpuris do. Also Okcupid said Indian guys it never mentioned Pakistanis. The term south asian by UN definitions applies all lands from Afghanistan to Bhutan and 99% of Americans think of the middle east when you say Pakistan not Indian people. Even the term AFPAK is related to middle east. Also there is just 500,000 Pakistanis in all of America. There is 2 million Pakistanis in britain and they’re tough as nails. They’re not skinny fat Indian guys with limp wrist who can’t fight which is majority of Indian people in Britain. Any race riots to protect Muslims whether Somali or Bengali or Arab were done by Pakistanis.

        1. Rajesh Kumar lol. As fake an ID as it can be. Aren’t the people you mentioned ethnic Pashtuns? What about the 40% AASI among PJLs from Lahore

        2. Why is this macho, fearless, good looking Mirpuri gang leader who doesnt fear anyone on earth commenting under generic Indian name here? For a moment I thought its Pakthings under different name where he has got a specific id for trolling purposes.

          Or are you working as a disposable sidekick whose job is to inform us black cowards how great Mirpuris are?

          Maybe Razib can arrange a showdown between Jat troll vs Mirpuri troll to find out who is the biggest, baddest and fairest of them all.

          1. You forgot most steppe R1a. I nominate Milan as judge and Kabir as cheerleader. I can provide commentary

        3. Rajesh kumar is such a generic Indian name, that i might as well comment under the pseudo name Anwar Ali

  41. Summary:
    Apthk thinks Jats are very different genotypically and phenotypically from other North Indians, so much so that they totally stand out in North India. He also made a lot of disparaging comments about generic brown looks, attractiveness of brown women etc, but has since backpedaled a bit given the backlash to just focus on genes/phenotype and how Hindu Jats totally stand out
    Most Indian BPers don’t necessarily disagree with the somewhat different genotypic mix, and phenotype of Hindu Jats but (rightly) point out the low ritual status, social status and unsophistication of this rustic peasant group, partly as a response to excess chauvinism /pride shown by the OP
    And finally, we have a Hindu Jat (DaThang) who is well versed in genetics, and a Sikh Jatt (Paindoo) who both are countering Apthk’s extreme assertions, and atleast partly are embarrassed by his association with their group(s)

    Did I miss anything?

  42. i have just one advice for all those who are this-passing or that-passing. don’t pass, swagger.

  43. like i said, if i think if interpreted charitably the origin comment highlights some real things. it’s just it sounds too stark and extreme, and doesn’t match the ‘lived experience’ of a lot of ppl here.

    also, there is an old stock character on the web of light-skinned NW brownz (includes pakistanis) being racist against ugly flat-faced broad-nosed dasas and their disgusting women. there was a guy like this on gnxp in 2003, a punjabi, who would talk about cities in punjab were like europe, while bengali and tamil women were known to be shockingly ugly. we had to ban him.

  44. In my experience of living in N India I think Hindu Jats and Sikh Jatts are the best looking people of S Asia. Sikh Jatts are basically gods and Hindu Jats are demi-gods. They are also the most intelligent. Basically either you’re a Jat/Jatt or you wish you were. Also there’s no such thing as Muslim Jatts as they are all Turks from Ferghana.

    PS: It seems likely Jaggu may grace this thread soon with his Turkic street cred.

    1. “Sikh Jatts are basically gods and Hindu Jats are demi-gods. They are also the most intelligent. Basically either you’re a Jat/Jatt or you wish you were. Also there’s no such thing as Muslim Jatts as they are all Turks from Ferghana.”

      Lived in north India. Can confirm.

      In fact, there’s a famous documentary ‘A Flying Jatt’ about a quarter-Turk, quarter-Belgian superhero. Eye opening, really.

      It is the original inspiration for the John Denver song ‘Leaving on a Jatt Plain’, which was later changed to jet plane for white American audiences since they cannot differentiate between themselves and Jatts.

  45. lol Ak’s remarks disparaging Gujaratis Patel Motel owners and 7-11 owners showed his racialism as clear as day. Now even his thin veneer is gone and Razib’s benefit of the doubt no longer even stands. As I have said before, I am the InternetJatt Whisperer. I first make them expose their racist views. I then have them confront them for themselves. And the last step is to aid them to self realization that these views are irrational. Currently, our friend is one Step 1. It is uncommon people finish all three steps. A few have. But just like real enlightenment isn’t easy to achieve, not even for the Buddha, it is still a worthwhile pursuit.

    Jai Shree Ameen

    Btw, these internet clowns are not representative of all online Jatts and certainly not those from real life. But they are a pesky and quite vocal group. I am doing a Jatt community a major favor. Milan should be proud

      1. the dude is spazzing hard. look at his random posts about banging nurses, the MCAT, his sexual aganst about Jatt women, his warped racist slurpee 711 motel jokes aimed to disparage hardworking entrepreneurial Gujarati Americans. He then called me homophobic for suggesting him and Raj would make good partners. What is wrong with that? It is fair to say. I think their romance would bloom. also consider myself like Supernanny. Remember that show? the kids first spaz in the corner and throw tantrums as their parents who spoil them want to step in. The key is to let them spaz out a bit. And then eventually they realize they are being silly.

        I would like to meet this guy. We can chat. Let’s see this online tough guy in real life. A nice public space so he feels safe.

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