American caste! (?)

On August 4th a new book is coming out, Caste: The Origins of Our Discontents. The author is a journalist who has published a substantial extract of the book at The New York Times Magazine, America’s Enduring Caste System: Our founding ideals promise liberty and equality for all. Our reality is an enduring racial hierarchy that has persisted for centuries:

Throughout human history, three caste systems have stood out. The lingering, millenniums-long caste system of India. The tragically accelerated, chilling and officially vanquished caste system of Nazi Germany. And the shape-shifting, unspoken, race-based caste pyramid in the United States. Each version relied on stigmatizing those deemed inferior to justify the dehumanization necessary to keep the lowest-ranked people at the bottom and to rationalize the protocols of enforcement. A caste system endures because it is often justified as divine will, originating from sacred text or the presumed laws of nature, reinforced throughout the culture and passed down through the generations.

When shared on Twitter even Left-Indians, normally sympathetic to Left-American journalists and their Weltanschauung, recoiled. My main comment is simple: write what you know. From the extract, the author does not seem to know enough about the Indian social system and history to make informative and illuminating comparisons to the United States.

Also, though I personally am not positively disposed toward caste, comparing it to Nazi Germany seems needlessly inflammatory.

I will note a few things

– The latest surveys suggest intercase marriages in India are now at 10%

– In America, 20% of the marriage partners of black Americans are not black

In 300 years about 20% of the ancestry of black Americans is now of European origin. In contrast, there are villages in Andhra Pradesh where people of different castes (jati) are genetically more distinct than Scandinavians are from Italians. David Reich’s group has an estimated < 1% intermarriage rate between the groups, with a rough crystallization of caste boundaries 1,500 years ago.

Caste: The Origins of Our Discontents probably had its conclusion prewritten. The argument is something added on later.

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Harshvardhan
Harshvardhan
3 years ago

My Caste Discrimination Experiences:-

Aunties when seeing Ragpickers, Garbage Man/Women using the word Chura/Chamar.

My Paternal Aunt was not allowed to sit on the sofa (she sat down) when she visited the upper caste family in Village in Rajasthan. Their utensils were put aside.

My Sister told me her Gym Owner told her that they don’t allow SC/ST to sit on sofa and also they(SC/ST) should not talk loudly with Jaats.

Our Maid said that she don’t wash houses of “Chamars”.

When we lived in Sonipat everytime people asked my Mum about asked or guessing what my mum Caste is?

My best friend said that in some video ” Deepika Padukone ” looks like Chamar. I m like wtf.

And now when my Sister tells me about ” Brahminism” i am silent i can’t say there Brahminism isn’t a term to put hatred towards Brahmins because she have experienced not direct taunts but indirect ones( behind the back) or people not knowing that my Family is Lower Caste because when they don’t know about your caste they talk shit or sometimes Good points about Caste Reservtions etc.

THIS COMMENT IS NOT TO DEGRADE COMMUNITIES OR ANY INDIVIDUAL FOR THAT MATTER

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago
Reply to  Harshvardhan

Harsh

I understand ur frustrations and agree with ur observations.

Harshvardhan
Harshvardhan
3 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

This is outside perspective and these occurences are not rare and not that common either but happens more when people don’t know your Caste. When they know they will not say or they will Censor them.

girmit
girmit
3 years ago
Reply to  Harshvardhan

Harshvardhan, have had similar experiences around brahmins who think i’m one of them as well as different types of north indians who assume i am the same. Its illuminating, to say the least. That said, my own people say all sorts of exclusivist things, so not trying to assert moral purity or whatever.

Harshvardhan
Harshvardhan
3 years ago
Reply to  girmit

I just put my thoughts out there.
Everyone speaks ill about everyone behind there back.

Bhatt
Bhatt
3 years ago
Reply to  Harshvardhan

Indians like light skin, but it is unlikely that a fatter and lighter skinned “Behenji looking” woman will be preferred by an urban north Indian male over a more tanned, pretty and slim woman. Compare Dolly Bindra to Chitrangada Singh. Arranged marriage is a different thing. I’ve seen good looking guys/gals paired up with plain looking types.

Harshvardhan
Harshvardhan
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

His comment was unnecessary because we were talking about some old Music Video of hers.

Harshvardhan
Harshvardhan
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

I shouldn’t have made this comment about my friend part. He is still one of my good friend. He maybe don’t know better.

Mohan
Mohan
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

Funny thing is that not too long ago, and maybe still… a fat unattractive but fair skinned woman was preferred to a slim attractive darker girl in many parts of India.

Also not to mention all the punbjabi songs just straight up talking about light skin preference…. Soniye, Goriye, Jattiye, etc… like literally every song.

Like there are dudes who would push aside Deepika for a Rosie O Donnell. SAD!

DaThang
DaThang
3 years ago
Reply to  Mohan

Well Rosie does have one thing that Deepika doesn’t- a big head. Depending on who you ask they is seen as a good or a bad thing with very few in betweens.

Slapstik
Slapstik
3 years ago
Reply to  Mohan

There’s nothing wrong with sohNiye.
goriye / jattiye are colour / caste commentary.

Personally I don’t think that colour / caste commentary of that nature is morally terrible per se. Maybe someone prefers goris / goras and that’s his / her choice. So who cares.

I think context matters – if these preferences go along with social / economic discrimination in the society (which is indeed rampant in India!) – then these lyrics etc are not merely a function of neutral human choice but symptomatic of a deeper problem. However, one cannot cure the problem by curing its symptoms – which is what the woke/PC bandwagon wants to do these days. Anyway, good luck to them…

Prats
Prats
3 years ago
Reply to  Slapstik

Yo Yo Honey Singh (that’s his rap name) tried to correct this imbalance in representation with his song ‘Brown Rang’.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?hl=id&gl=ID&v=PqFMFVcCZgI

Truly a man ahead of his times.

Harshvardhan
Harshvardhan
3 years ago
Reply to  Prats

Brilliant song indeed!!!

gsubrec
gsubrec
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

Devyani Khobragade, the Indian diplomat who got arrested in New York, is a Mahar , Mahar is a Leather worker caste and hence untouchable ; In the Hindi belt, leather worker caste is called Chamar

td
td
3 years ago
Reply to  gsubrec

“Mahar is a Leather worker caste…” —>

@gsubrec, afaik, most mahars had nothing to do with leather-tanning. There is a separate jaati in maharashtra which worked in this field. As for the cham**rs of north india, Ramnarayan Rawat, a professor at University of Delaware, has written a great book(Reconsidering untouchability) proving that most cham**rs in north india were involved in agriculture for generations . The ‘leather-tanning’ ones would be in minority here. This makes me wonder why the tag of ‘cham**r’ remained attached to those folks .

chrisare
chrisare
3 years ago

Razib – I notice you’ve increasingly kept out of the culture wars in recent years, perhaps after getting cancelled at the NYT. More than ever, however, speaking truth to woke-nonsense-somehow-turned-power is needed. I do realize that it’s easy to ask someone else to take a risk with their reputation/livelihood.

AnAn
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

Rivendell, Lothlorien, king Thranduil, Cirdan (Grey Havens), Grimbeorn the Old (bear men), northern Dunadain, Radagast, Gandalf have not fallen yet.

Asia, Africa and parts of Latin America, and 1776 Unites are still fighting the woke virus. They have some fire left.

We must place our faith in the black savior.

Slapstik
Slapstik
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

I cannot prove you wrong, but I will just say one mustn’t prophesize what humans will do next. The West may be doomed, we just cannot know.

Milan Todorovic
Milan Todorovic
3 years ago
Reply to  AnAn

Radagast is the old Serbian name. This is also a name of deity. The next discussion topic are the mythology and deities which were brought by Aryans to SA and Pundits can read one excerpt to make comparisons with Hindu mythology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radegast_(god)

PS: Razib you are not wrong.

Harshvardhan
Harshvardhan
3 years ago

Also Clarifying that this is a Neutral perspective that you can find many occurences of these situations in Urban and more so in Rural areas because Jat(Jati) defines who you are in Rural areas.
This doesn’t means there is not hatred from the Lower Castes. There definitely is but oppression shouldn’t become the norm of the World as @Razib Says in his comments.
I personally apart from Named Kalu is the worst thing that happened and I don’t mind that because there are worst nicknames than that.
And the white or light/er ward and Wife is what people want in the North that cut across the Communities not necassarily the norm but still there and its Alright. People have their own preferences.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago
Reply to  Harshvardhan

You need not feel defensive bro. Its alright. Coming from OBC background i myself understand the state of churn going in the society. where stuff seems like moving forward, but older things keeps on happening as well.

Harshvardhan
Harshvardhan
3 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

I posted my comment because i want to get some things out of my mind so I shree my thoughts.
I am not defensive just saynig if it didn’t happen to me and my family because we are middle class. It happens.
Btw Sourav are you from India?

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago
Reply to  Harshvardhan

LOL, Where else would i be from? Yeah man

UP—> US

td
td
3 years ago
Reply to  Harshvardhan

, as far as name calling goes, a lot of young folks from cham**r jaati are not ashamed of the jaati name and some are even proudly making songs about it . Have you heard of punjabi singer Ginni Mahi ? You seem to be from haryana, check out this song btw 🙂 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fOVa3xgMFng

Harshvardhan
Harshvardhan
3 years ago
Reply to  td

Sorry but i was just mentioning the use of word is.common amongst people using Caste (example baniya,bhangi ,chura , mullah) instead of say Color. These people mostly live in Rural areas.
I know about the song. I personally dont like glorifying Community songs like Jatt ( present in every 5 out of 10 punjabi song).
I by my Family was told not to use that word in Public cause now it has become a derogatory term.

Btw my Caste is Koli.

td
td
3 years ago
Reply to  Harshvardhan

“Btw my Caste is Koli” — , interesting, kolis are SCs(dalits) only in 2-3 states, in other states, they are OBC. They are quite a dominant group in gujarat.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago

Couple of Indian articles on the topic

https://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/columns/the-same-shrinking-6491627/

Hindu nationalism, White supremacism threaten to morally impoverish the two democracies

https://www.livemint.com/opinion/columns/the-uncomfortable-question-of-who-our-worst-off-are-11593953611910.html

Opinion | The uncomfortable question of who our worst-off are

Prats
Prats
3 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

Feels like Joseph is course-correcting after recent criticism. He would make a good BrownCast guest btw.

Milan Todorovic
Milan Todorovic
3 years ago

It seems to me that this book is pretty shallow and there is not much research. The comparison between Nazi Germany and the caste system is a sufficient indication. Nazi system was only 12 year in power, the caste system is 000 of years old. I don’t know if some kind of caste system existed in SA before Aryans came (I doubt it) but they definitely brought from their old homeland such caste division. The system was called – the rank system and, most likely, was replicated in future India. It was a meritory system.

Serbs in many 000 of years of their history never had slaves as, for example, Greeks had. For e.g. in the 4.c.BC, Athens had 135 000 of free citizens and 100000 slaves. They also had 5000 paid delegates and 6000 judges. This, highly corrupted system with all sorts of immorality, they called – democratic system i.e. tribal system. A small region Boeotia had 50000 slaves, Argolida and Corinth – 175000 slaves, more than free citizens. Such system was unsustainable what was proved in a war against Macedonian king Phillip which the coalition of Greek cities lost. This meritory rank system was made a law (King Dusan’s Law) when the Serbian kingdom was the strongest state in Europe. I wrote about this before, it was very similar to the Manu Smriti, banned the slavery and protected the basic rights of the lowest rank.

Milan Todorovic
Milan Todorovic
3 years ago

As I said Serbs never had slaves nor practiced slavery in their long history. Immediately after their liberation from Ottomans, Serbia in 1835. adopted the Constitution. One of the first Constitutional provisions was:

“Every slave who steps on Serbian soil becomes a free man.”

It was a different story in many European countries. This photo is from Belgian colony of Kongo, in 1955.

https://www.google.com/search?q=photo+kongo+1955&rlz=1C1GCEA_enAU795AU795&sxsrf=ALeKk00TY64lHOMwjcbN5VX9XL-K1pkcqA:1594124814855&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=zqx8JLZfTFRJgM%252CN4lePEANA7orAM%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kQvwAlZL1R5MFn-12fReGnVXJq3eQ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj1rsTakbvqAhUA4zgGHf4uAW4Q9QEwAHoECAcQGg&biw=1366&bih=657#imgrc=zqx8JLZfTFRJgM

td
td
3 years ago

“David Reich’s group has an estimated < 1% intermarriage rate between the groups" — Razib dada, wasn't this <1% intermarriage rate only for Vysya(komati jaati) of Andhra ?

" with a rough crystallization of caste boundaries 1,500 years ago." — Would you say that this is true for every region of india across ~2,000 jaatis ? I don't think similar farming castes of a particular region with very little cultural and ritual differences between them (for example, the Kurmis and Koeries of Uttar Pradesh ) would have maintained endogamy for this long.

Diasporan
Diasporan
3 years ago

I can’t access the NYT article but interesting in that in the excerpt you cite they do not bring up the very example that gives the source of the loanword “caste” into English — the Spanish Empire and its complex history of racial status hierarchies, as one of the 3 examples.

I don’t know if the analogy they’re going for is a society having caste means that “your ascribed unchosen inborn identity defines you and your social roles” or if castes are defined as representing endogamous groups in addition to that, for which the e.g. black/white segregation case kind of fits during a time interval where legal not just social pressure forced endogamy (and things like the “one drop” rule forced people into sides), though not nearly as long as Indian endogamy of course.

The historical Latin America/Spanish empire “caste” system could be thought of as a case where there’s “castes” in the sense of one’s inborn identity, ancestry or physical appearance determines your station in life, but without endogamy, quite the contrary — it’s just that the mixed are slotted into their own bins too and still placed on a hierarchy.

I just felt the two could be further disentangled — is the fundamental comparison about societies that have forced inequality based on ascribed attributes like lineage/physical appearance and forced social hierarchy (even if the different members in positions on the hierarchy can marry, there’s just a power imbalance with the offspring forced again into a slot on it), or is it specifically about situations where segregation exists so fully and no contact/interrmarriage is possible (or highly restricted) at all, in addition to that?

Aditya
Aditya
3 years ago

One thing I have noticed when it comes to inter-caste marriages, is that they tend to be geographically disparate. You rarely find partnerships between an Iyer and a Chettiar, but you do see Iyers marrying Gujarati Baniyas, or Chettiars marrying Kayasths.

APthk
3 years ago
Reply to  Aditya

That’s actually quite understandable; a South Indian Brahmin will not marry others that are “below” him in the caste hierarchy within his native region. However, the same “Brahmin” becomes a Middle caste in U.P, and can marry a Kayastha from U.P without any compunctions. In reality, both will likely share the same genetic background and appear similar as well.

APthk
3 years ago

All I have to say is, the AIT is true as far as I have seen. Being a Hindu Jat myself, I have always felt like an alien in the larger populace of India. I look and feel so different that I am far more at home in say, Georgia (the country that I’ve visited personally) or even Romania, than I am in India. The same could easily be said for my mother and sister. My father has an East Iranic appearance, and is a tanned dark olive/brown, and is always mistaken for Azeri and/or Iranian by other old men and women who have just come from Iran. We look no different from the Kalash, with a range of appearances among us that vary from the most ethnic-looking Kalash to the Whitest, Blonde-haired, blue-eyed Eastern European looking guy among the Kalash. Growing up I never really felt out of place in school here in America, but many Indians in my class were ruthlessly bullied and harangued for their racial appearance until high school.

Here is an example, I have attached a picture of my sister’s elementary school class, which has the typical assortment of Indian Americans, and Whites/Blacks etc. But it also has my sister and another Jat Hindu, and well, you can see the HUGE difference between them and the other Indians in the picture, they fit in as a part of the larger “White” crowd, while the other Indians are either “Indian” or “Mexican” for White Americans. Key: A picture of the large group of all students in her class, the zoomed-in picture of my sister in the White shirt, and also a zoomed-in picture of her friend wearing a colorful, flowery top, who also happens to be a Jat. The pictures speak for themselves. Link: https://imgur.com/a/heVSCuW

When we go to parties in the States with a lot of people from the subcontinent, we invariably are always alone and different from everyone else, as no other Jats/Khatris/Aroras/Kamboj/Kashmiri Pandits/High-Caste Sindhis are ever present. We tend to be ignored and most people just assume we are either not Desi or just snobbish. I have only run into the aforementioned Biradri communities from the higher castes at generic social mixers with other Whites/Americans here in the states; they tell me they avoid South Asian events for fear of being marginalized and feeling like an outsider. Only Gujarati Patels/other Gujjus, South Indians in general, Bengalis, Biharis and most UP-walas are the major people in attendance at majority-Desi events, and as far as I’m concerned, I might as well go to a non-White Hispanic/Latin event, because that’s how different they are to me and they even look similar, just that some have even darker skin than most Hispanics. Can’t blame them personally, they’re technically a minority here and need to find others like them. I’ve personally never really felt ethnically or racially connected to any Indians in the diaspora. Even when I visit my hometown in the NCR region in India, we barely interact with the common folk you see everywhere and the distinction (in appearance) between our family/extended family/friends from our caste and the local generic middle/lower-caste population is absolutely enormous.

I’m talking about a difference so huge, that I’ve even been considered to be a foreigner by other North Indians (of a generic caste) on many occasions. No Indian in America ever recognizes me (but that goes back to the diaspora only really consisting of Gujaratis, Tamils, Telugus, Malayalis, Marathis, Bengalis, Biharis, and UP-walas that are middle-lower caste. Even the vast majority of Punjabis look nothing like Biradri groups back home and are either Tarkhans or Doms/Mirasis or in some cases Jats who have one mixed parent/grandparent and still carry the Jatt identity.) and I constantly hear “But you look White” from anyone inside/outside the Desi community. This has led to me only finding common ground with other people who look like me, which is essentially Iranic people, Eastern Europeans, and peoples from the Caucasus, along with White Latinos, and some Italians/Greeks.

Needless to say, I have yet to find my social group among the Desi community, or an attractive Desi woman for that matter. I’m not kidding when I say that ~99% of Desi women I see here in America are not even worth considering. AASI radically impacts their appearance to the point they look like aliens to me and my aesthetic standards do not comport with their appearances. I rather prefer women from my community, but considering the chances of running into a Hindu Jat woman are astronomically low, Eastern European and West Asian women have been my next choice owing to their essentially identical appearance in many instances, and the preference is mutual thankfully. All I have to say is, the South Asian identity means nothing to me, especially here in America where everyone more or less finds their own social/racial grouping to fit into. We’re essentially Whites/Ambiguous Whites a la Nikki Haley. Indians? They are essentially their own race, with the exception of those that look non-White Latino/Mexican/Hispanic, who can fit in easily into those communities. Good luck to all, and have a nice year ahead.

sbarrkum
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

how is it that we hear the loudest yelps of whiteness among the sudras?

Razib,.
Please I am Sudra/assume High AASI.

My wish list would be perfect AASI, Many shades darker and 6″ taller (5’4″ in this birth), and same IQ (in the current world context, and born in Sri Lanka).

I work like a coolie, 4-6 hrs, bare bodied, no hat, shaved head too. However, will not become the shiny black you see among some in Sri Lanka. For those who know my genetic make up, quite obvious.

how is it that we hear the loudest yelps of whiteness among the sudras?

Lets twist that statement around.
Why do those who claim their looks/color/steppe yelp White women dont dig them.

In the US in general, I made more progress with white women of a particular class once I get to talking. Very very rarely among the Black, if at all among Caribbean, English speaking.

In Sri Lanka (within class/economic etc) as a widower, not much color bias.

Scorpion Eater
Scorpion Eater
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

“even my dad is swarthy and can only pass as Azeri at best. Other ethnic Jats can only pass as far West as Eastern Iran/the Arabian Coast, “…


Jats like us however, pass among the larger grouping of Caucasians with ease and are never mistaken for Indian, and thus have access to privileges that other “Desis” don’t get.

imagine the plight our beautiful women would face if left to roam unaccompanied.

I was always apprehensive that “something” like “APthk” would befell this blog one day. now it has happened. 🙁

it some ways this blog brought this on itself. not a week passes before yet another article appears discussing the genotype and phenotype and color and facial features of brown people in painstaking detail, in the grand old tradition of nazi anthropologists. now we have this!

APthk
3 years ago
Reply to  Scorpion Eater

Why does discussing ethnic/racial diversity in India prick at your conscience? Are you suggesting we ignore the grand racial diversity of India in favor of discussing how the remaining 96% of India is a “monolith”? So that you can continue to dwell in a “safe space”?

What will happen to those biradri communities in the NW of India that don’t form a part of this contrived “monolith” of yours? Are they supposed to exclude themselves from discussions among South Asians about identity/race/phenotype and just accept that they look/are no different from other Indians in any way? Even when the staggering amount of evidence we have shows otherwise?

I have a feeling you wouldn’t have had such an acrimonious reaction had I discussed the unique identity/phenotype differences of NE Indians, who are also very different from the bulk (>95%) of Indian people. Something about MENA/White looking Hindus makes some people very insecure. It won’t change the facts, however. We all have to learn to live with certain uncomfortable truths and comparing such discussions to Nazi-era racial paradigms is ludicrous and absolutely insane.

sbarrkum
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

Raj Barr-Kumar The first brown/black President of any US Professional body. He was the 1997 President of the American Institute of Architects (AIA)

Raj is (sbarrkum’s) my first cousin, now 74, I am 61+. Son of only two brothers.
Normally am kind of circumspect, naming people. However, both my cousin and I are both dead end, i.e no children.

As children, there was all that implied and subtle teaching.
More than money, write a book.

So, Raj Barr-Kumar,
https://www.amazon.com/Raj-Barr-Kumar/e/B001K8UPAQ%3Fref=dbs_a_mng_rwt_scns_share

Our grandmothers side, the low key people.

http://sbarrkum.blogspot.com/2017/08/head-clerk-of-dimbulla-tea-s-thomas-and.html

sbarrkum
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

I wish I could say, my cousin Raj Barr-Kumar was big money family.

None at all, his father* died when he was 10 or so, just before my father got married, in 1953.

Long story short, went to SL Uni (free), scholarship to UK and from there to Kansas.
Now is in Washington DC.

Anyway, about black south asians making it.

justanotherlurker
justanotherlurker
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

APthk:

I have to say that your sister and her friend do look a bit distinct from the other Indian Americans. So does Nikki Haley (but her dad not really?) and Vijender Kumar the boxer…Jats do seem like later entrants to India ( 1500 ybp?)

What you probably don’t know is that Jats are considered Shudra, and lower caste. And really backwards and uncouth too (So unfair for such a goodlooking Caucasian type people, I know ..but that is India :)). So most of those Indian looking folks that you feel different from would be loath to marry among your kind back in the homeland. You would literally be among the last choices for Brahmins, Rajputs, Banias, upper OBCs etc in the marriage market..You would think your relative Caucasian appearance would give you an edge? Unfortunately my friend, the world is unfair, and it is not so. So there is not much chance back in India that other communities would bother you for marriage. You are saved 🙂 In the US OTOH desis would be happy to marry any desis and would probably interested in you – just forgive their ignorance and move on.

As for the other communities you mention – I have seen Kashmiri pics and videos online and some do a look a bit different but there are plenty of brown skinned ones who would not stand out in the plains…The reason you don’t find others of your favorite communities (btw what is Kamboj? some kind of Jat like super caste?) is because uneducated, rural folks just don’t make it to the US/ can’t hack it..May be you can look for Sikh Jatts – there are plenty of those in Cali and Canada.

Oh btw, I had to LOL at your point about Khatris/Aroras (and “high caste” Sindhis) avoiding Indian functions because of feeling different…haha..you should told all my contacts, friends etc running into the dozens who are from these communities that throng to all sorts of desis things, including religious ones along with South Indians..they just didn’t get the memo. As far as their looks, a mixed lot – many short, brown ones, many tall brown ones..but mostly all very Indian looking..Sorry none at your standards 🙂

In any case, good to get to a Hindu Jat voice here..:) Good luck with the Persians and Meds..:)

PS: I just Googled Haryana Jat women to just ogle at those amazing beauties (haha)
https://tinyurl.com/yd6bpz6h

thejkhan
thejkhan
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

Bobby Jindal is not khatri, he’s baniya.

Son Goku
Son Goku
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

“give me a chamar who looks like deepika padukone”
Found a Deepika for you ?. She ain’t a chamar but a Bede(water gypsy) from Bangladesh.
https://youtu.be/FFktYCGz80c

APthk
3 years ago

Thanks for the reply. I honestly don’t care what the status of Jats is in the Hindu varna system. I care about ethnic identity, and for me and many others, Jats are distinct as a people from other peoples in the subcontinent. This is not an appeal to Whiteness, just the facts. Also, in America, Desis are considered to be “People of Color” and at the bottom of the totem pole racially, grouped along with Mexicans and Blacks socially (albeit not economically).

Jats like us however, pass among the larger grouping of Caucasians with ease and are never mistaken for Indian, and thus have access to privileges that other “Desis” don’t get. I rather prefer that, for what happens in India, stays in India. What happens outside of the subcontinent is what truly matters. I’ve never faced an iota of racism in my life, whereas I’ve seen well-educated IITians and Ivy League alumni from Brahmin castes face racism that is absolutely appalling. At least in America, where everyone has an equal opportunity as far as education is concerned, Jats like me have it all, while admixed Indians will always be Indian, and be subject to discrimination and disrespect, despite their education, country of birth, and wealth.

I’m glad to hear that no admixed Indian community like the Rajputs or the other castes want to marry the uncouth Jats, for that will help us preserve our ancestry and prevent us from mixing and looking like the other 1.35 Billion Indians celebrated across the World for their looks, smells, defecation habits, poverty and accents. BTW, you can’t find pictures of Jat women by Googling — those pictures you found are of educated Rajputs and Brahmins, Jaats and others who claim to be Jats to gain respect and a higher status in Haryana/Punjab where Jats are at the top of the totem pole. You should be able to recognize them, seeing as they look no different from your own women (Hint: they are your own women, just ashamed to acknowledge it).

I wonder why, after all, as you rightly said, Jats are shudras. Also, our women are basically kept in Purdah, that’s the level of privacy needed, especially in India, where the other castes are renowned for trying to sully the honor of their women; imagine the plight our beautiful women would face if left to roam unaccompanied. And finally, I have to wonder, where do you meet these Biradri communities that I haven’t been to already? At least in the DMV area, I have never seen a single Indo-Aryan that looks like who they claim to be.

Of course, its completely understandable if you just believe those who claim to be Arora/Khatri etc at face value without critically evaluating their race/phenotype, which would explain why you think there are plenty of such people at “Desi” events. Haha. From my experience most Indians have never even seen an Indo-Aryan in their life and just assume that a lighter Mexican-looking Desi is “Upper Caste” or Arora/Jatt/Khatri etc. Laughable. Would also explain why Indian Americans think “I’m White” and ask me why I have an “Indian-Sounding name”.

Hint: If they don’t look distinct from other Desis, they cannot be who they claim to be. They are just following the time honored tradition of lying about one’s caste, even though, as you state, such things are above “educated” people. I guess you could say they are ashamed to be who they are. Tough luck, after all, you can’t change your race, just your surname. Besides, >90% of such communities still live in India, not because they “can’t crack it” (after all, I’ve seen uneducated Bihari villagers “make it” in America despite coming here with a few dollars by just grinding and working their way to small business ownership, not to mention many, many Mexicans who jump the border illegally without knowing any English and go on to become millionaires) but because they have too much to lose in coming here (vast tracts of land, servants that are Brahmins and Rajputs and others who are “educated”, and a luxurious life among their own people).

My grandfather came here to pursue higher education, and earned a PhD in a STEM field before getting an arranged marriage to a poorly educated Jat villager in India. He still has some land in India, though he sold most of it in the process of paying off his financial debts incurred during his education/to support himself and his lifestyle in the States. I wish more Jats would follow in his footsteps, but alas, I know this will most likely not happen owing to the aforementioned. My grandfather was one of the few intrepid trailblazers who truly worshiped knowledge.

On the other hand, the educated elite of India, who look upon Jats with disdain, have a lot to gain economically by coming here. Little do they know its an uphill battle, because in America, race is part and parcel of your existence. You cannot escape it. No one in America gives a rat’s ass about your caste in India, they just care about your race, and they figure that out from your face/phenotype. And I know very well just how alien >96% of Indians (including those educated elite you mentioned) appear in America, they will never fit in with the majority here, will always be bullied, discriminated against, and made fun of even if born here, and many have already suffered the consequences (including being killed in extreme cases). I guess you could say Shudras have it much better when it comes to race. Unfair? I guess, but then, life is unfair. Anyways, I have to take your leave, I have some unfinished business with uncouth, uneducated businessmen, who are Sudras and Hindu Jats.

td
td
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

“I’m glad to hear that no admixed Indian community like the Rajputs or the other castes want to marry the uncouth Jats, ” —- fwiw, this goes both ways, jats especially rural jats don’t like inter-marriage themselves. Rajasthani jats had long-standing rivalry with rajputs so i can’t imagine rural raj. jats somehow ‘wanting’ to marry rajputs.

Hoju
Hoju
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

I look unmistakably South Asian (i.e., I can’t make up outside-of-India lineage stories with a straight face) but I haven’t experienced any material racism in the US when I lived there for much of the past decade. There are plenty of well-adjusted, well-integrated, successful desis in the US. If you only look at social media, your perception can get skewed. I get more grief about skin color in brief trips to India than living in the US and Canada. In my experience, no one has really cared much for skin tone here (other than some desis retaining their desi racism). Never felt like a victim.

APthk
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

Razib, I mean no harm. I greatly respect you as a scholar and handily submit that your intellectual capacities exceed mine. No surprise there, Asian admixture never made someone inferior in any objective sense of the word. I am simply offering my experiences as a Jatt in the States. If people get offended by them, what am I supposed to do/say? And you are right, there is no way all of us can pass as White — but then I indicated that in my initial post — even my dad is swarthy and can only pass as Azeri at best. Other ethnic Jats can only pass as far West as Eastern Iran/the Arabian Coast, also something I acknowledged initially when I said that appearances among us ranged from the darkest Kalash to the Whitest Kalash and Dardics. So I mean no harm/offense, I simply offer a unique perspective. It is up to the reader to take offense to it. And thank you for noticing my academic credentials. I trust they are confidential and for your eyes alone. I posted it for the very reason you ascertained, as I do not intend to be a pretender. Thank you.

Prats
Prats
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

” At least in America, where everyone has an equal opportunity as far as education is concerned, Jats like me have it all, while admixed Indians will always be Indian, and be subject to discrimination and disrespect, despite their education, country of birth, and wealth.”

Do you think this will last?

In 50-100 years, America will be a much browner nation. Phenotype might matter less than the social capital that comes from being part of a well-connected Indian community.

td
td
3 years ago

“What you probably don’t know is that Jats are considered Shudra, and lower caste.” —- @justanotherlurker, Shudra is an alien word for most rural jats and even most rural indians as pretty no one in rural india uses the word ‘shudra’ and 2-3 generations ago , most of them speaking local dialects with no penetration of sanskritised hindi wouldn’t be able to even pronounce the word .

As as for being considered ‘lower caste’, i don’t know of any person who considers them such seriously. I doubt anyone has the balls to say that in front of Jat in a Jat-dominated vilage in Haryana. That person will be beaten badly 🙂 .

AnAn
AnAn
3 years ago
Reply to  td

Agree with TD.

Have a lot more to say about Jats and Kambhojas another time

As per the eastern Itihaasas and Puraanas (hundreds of references) Europeans are Yavana = Chandra Vamsha via Illa through her son Pururavas (wife Urvashi) through their son Aayu (wife Prabhaa), through their son Nuhusha (wife Ashokasundari) through their son Yayati (wife Devayani) through their son Turvasu.

Could give the matriarchal lines too . . . which are far more spectacular than the patriarchal lines. Yavanas or Europeans are great.

Kapila (who is believed to have lived in a continent (which is described in some detail in eastern scriptures including Surya Siddhaanta) on the far side of the globe between Europe/Africa and Asia) is also described with caucasian features. Kapila is the father of Saamkhya. Yoga is a subset within the superset of Saamkhya.

Milan Todorovic
Milan Todorovic
3 years ago
Reply to  AnAn

“Yavanas or Europeans are great”.

Thanks, Anan, Yavanas were Serbs.

APthk
3 years ago
Reply to  td

Correct. Jats care not about what other castes/communities think of them — as far as I have seen/experienced, Jats consider themselves masters of their own dominion and do not concern themselves with the riff-raff of the subcontinent. Even certain Khatris share this disposition, albeit some are more urbanized and liberal. Kambojas, Jats/Rors, other Birdaris like the Aroras, etc. are all strictly endogamous and prefer only to marry within their community. The opinions of others are of no importance to them. Of course, if you badmouth them in their own village, some violent reprisal is to be expected, so be forewarned.

Milan Todorovic
Milan Todorovic
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

>>>> Jats care not about what other castes/communities think of them — as far as I have seen/experienced, Jats consider themselves masters of their own dominion and do not concern themselves with the riff-raff of the subcontinent…The opinions of others are of no importance to them. Of course, if you badmouth them in their own village, some violent reprisal is to be expected, so be forewarned.<<<<<<<

I paraphrased your sentences to establish similarities.
Serbs care not about what anyone else think of them as far as I have seen/experienced, Serbs consider themselves masters of the world and do not concern themselves with the riff-raff of the Europe (note: Slavics are considered as Serbs)…. The opinions of others are of no importance to them. Of course, if you badmouth them in their own village, you will be offered to suck their Richard, so be forewarned because during this activity your ears can be twisted as well.

There are some similar faces in Serbia, although not too many. I may post a link when I find some famous face on the net.

Re: Celts – I wrote above that Aryans brought 3-rank (i.e. caste) division to SA. There is actually the 4th rank. Celts (i.e Goths, Gals, Geti, Heti, etc) were a warrior rank with a mission to go, find new land and remain there. They established kingdoms in today’s Spain, Portugal, France, Belgium (tribe Belga), Switzerland (Helveti), Italy (Lombards, Umbri), etc.

The song I sent you a link is sang by a Serbian not by Irish band – Orthodox Celts. Both folklors are very similar.

Have a look the following photo. Two guys from Modi’s right and a girl next to his left shoulder looks like any young boy/girl on a Belgrade street.

https://www.dnaindia.com/bollywood/photo-gallery-year-ender-2019-bollywood-s-selfie-with-pm-narendra-modi-friends-reunion-and-other-viral-photos-of-the-year-2807096

Milan Todorovic
Milan Todorovic
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

I wrote before about Jats and about their ways to come to India. It is not strange that you feel at home for e.g. in Romania because they started their voyage from there. They are genetically Serbs originated in nearby Vinca and known as Dacians, Geti, Goths, Celts, Heti, Hati and Jats. I described one their way through Egypt and Middle East to India. The other way was from the north. It is very simple to check their genetics to establish ancient kinship. Recently, one Irish guy wrote that they do not have connections with Serbs nor Jats but I think he is having a second thought now. It means that this link is still pretty unknown in a general public of Celts and Jats. But, step by step, we are uncovering some hidden and forbidden truths.

Pls. listen for e.g. this song, if you feel that is your sound, it means that I was right:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_e7QbWc5mI&list=RDB_e7QbWc5mI&start_radio=1&t=0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meRc3IroSp8

APthk
3 years ago

Milan, I have personally seen one Serb who looked completely Indo Aryan to me (he had the last name Sijacic), and he mistook me for a European when he saw me, though I doubt my face is found in Serbia. He worked with me for some time and we were good friends. (I have only seen my ethnic group/face in Romania/Bulgaria/Georgia/Chechnya/Armenia/Azerbaijan/Eastern Europe/Iran/Turkey, in Israel among some Ashkeniazim and Sephardic Jews, and in Greece/Southern Europe.) I might be uninformed though, feel free to offer your opinion. Here are some pictures of my family members; where do they fit in your opinion?
Link: https://imgur.com/a/ijIEI3x
I can share more pictures later. Let me know what you think.

APthk
3 years ago

I’ve always felt connected to Celtic music. Even as a child, I would listen to it rather than most Bollywood music. I don’t know what affinities the Celts have to us, but I certainly admire them as a people. Thanks for the links.

AnAn
AnAn
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

“I’ve always felt connected to Celtic music. Even as a child, . . . I certainly admire them as a people. Thanks for the links.”

Me too. Thanks Milan.

Milan Todorovic
Milan Todorovic
3 years ago
Reply to  AnAn

Great. In this case we can send to APthk the official invitation to join the SASBA (South Asian Serbian Brotherhood Association).

DaThang
DaThang
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

You don’t even know what AASI looks like.

Bhatt
Bhatt
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

As a KP that lived in Punjab, Haryana and Delhi for quite some time, I can say that the most western shifted looking people are the Aroras and Khatris, followed by Punjabi Jatts. Haryanvi and UP Jats look rather generic, like Babita Phogat. One thing though, Jats do look imposing and have strong facial features. The Punjabi ones being taller, sharper and fairer and the Hindu ones having the best square-jawed features. The westernness has something to do with the “Caucasus” component in Harrapa, which decreases from the Aroras to the Hindu Jats.

AnAn
AnAn
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

“so just googled some stuff. nikki’s daughter is dating a black dude. #2020 south carolina

1+”

Awesome! Go GIRL (Nikki’s daughter) 🙂

Razib . . . you have to watch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfsH3AaoqYM&t=962s.

For the first time ever in recent weeks, wokeness is coming after highly respected black economists. I wish I were joking . . . but many black economists are in danger of being fired for being black white supremacists.

I think the Black heterodox global leadership (including but not limited to 1776 Unites) is the only hope for our species. We all need to rally behind the black savior.

For what it is worth several black leaders have now heard about Brown Pundits and want to speak with the Brown Pundits.

Walter Sobchak
Walter Sobchak
3 years ago

Razib, you wrote:

“In America, 20% of the marriage partners of black Americans are not black

In 300 years about 20% of the ancestry of black Americans is now of European origin. ”

Assuming current intermarriage rates continue at current levels. How many generations will elapse before the two groups in the US will be genetically indistinguishable?

Walter Sobchak
Walter Sobchak
3 years ago
Reply to  Walter Sobchak
Raz
Raz
3 years ago

This shudra word is only used on internet. Jats have always been as dominant as rajputs in west UP let alone in Haryana or punjab. Calling them low castes is insult to actual lower castes/dalits. Its a way to downplay misery of dalits/SC by internet brahmin.

Prats
Prats
3 years ago
Reply to  Raz

“Calling them low castes is insult to actual lower castes/dalits.”

They are called low caste by some because they want to be termed low caste. (Cf Jat agitation)

APthk
3 years ago
Reply to  Prats

I’m a little surprised to see people talking about the “Jat agitaton/protests” as an example of what true Hindu Jatts or Sikh Jatts look like. First of all, there is a nuanced difference between a “Jatt” and a “Jaat” in terms of rhetoric, but the implications are quite enormous.

Gwalas/Cowherds/Yadavas call themselves “Jaat” in Haryana and form a diverse collection of people under the umbrella of a group called “Jaat” and it is these people that are protesting in those pictures often discussed here. They suffer from discrimination and poverty and campaign for more rights/reservations in order to improve their lot in life.

Why would wealthy Jatt landowners/Jatts in general be protesting on the streets with random people, when they have nothing to protest in the first place? And why would they campaign for OBC status when they want nothing to do with other castes/communities, particularly OBCs? I’m honestly tickled that people think “Jaats/Gwalas” are the same as “Jatts” — then again, people, especially NRIs in the US who’ve never been to Haryana/Punjab, think Google gives you all the answers. I bet they’ve never come across a true Jat in person, in their entire life.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

What would be a “pure” Jatt surname and Jaat surname , according to u?

APthk
3 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

It’s not about the surname — its how they look. You are forgetting the primacy of race/phenotype/appearance in this discussion. Its really no different than an obvious Mestizo or Harnizo or Castizo claiming to be a Criollo despite not looking like one. Of course, that doesnt happen in Latin America, but in South Asia, fellow mixed people/Harnizos (who claim to be Jatt) delude their own mixed people into believing they are higher caste by changing their surname, and marrying another fraudulent Jatt who has done the same. All the while, other authentic Jatts watch and laugh from the sidelines. Its all really a ruse to try to marry into the Jatt community. Some might fall victim to this due to financial considerations or some other pragmatic reasons, but the Hindu Jats I know would never fall for it. They can see the obvious differences.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

Yeah so i asked, who according to you the “authentic Jatts” ?

Any Indian celebrity, movie star, sport star who you can point to? I mean some of them might be there, right?

APthk
3 years ago
Reply to  Raz

I don’t mind to be honest, I guess you could say us Hindu Jats/certain other similar Biradris are “Steppe Shudras” and the vast majority of other Indians are “AASI Brahmins”

Mitchell Porter
Mitchell Porter
3 years ago

As someone who has often thought of the west’s new identity politics as a “caste system” – not because of any great similarity to India, but because it consists of a large number of group identities that struggle for relative status – it is interesting to see the New York Times approved version of “West as caste society”.

I find its nature predictable in retrospect. We’ve all noticed that western liberals are increasingly eager to attack Hindutva/BJP/Modi. The Times-approved synthesis ties together “white supremacy” in America, Nazi race theory, and caste in India as co exemplars of “caste”. The attempt to associate America’s white majority with Nazism is of course familiar at the Times, but hitherto that has been purely a matter of domestic politics. The attempt to extend this to a “unified theory of caste” that includes India, could turn this ideology into one with foreign policy or geopolitical implications.

So how would this play out, I ask myself, if, say, Biden won and believers in this viewpoint got into power in America? I can only think that it signals a preference for Congress or any other anti-BJP force that comes along. This seems in tension with the relatively bipartisan interest in substituting India for China in economic and geopolitical relations. But the protracted existence of tensions (perhaps what a Marxist would call contradictions) is part of life, especially political and geopolitical life.

A world where Biden-BLM assume state power in America, and develop strategic ties with India even while expressing persistent disapproval of aspects of Indian society, is certainly a possible world. It might be very much like how America for a generation or more fostered economic ties with China, while always expressing hope that China would democratize; only here it would be that America hopes India would become more progressive.

Hoju
Hoju
3 years ago

In this context, it sounds like BLM stands for Black, Latino & Muslim.

Also, I don’t know if you’ve followed what’s happening in the UK, but it is a lot more visible there. Indian (Hindu) are with the Conservatives and Muslims are with Labour.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago

“A world where Biden-BLM assume state power in America, and develop strategic ties with India even while expressing persistent disapproval of aspects of Indian society, is certainly a possible world. ”

I think this will be the possible scenario. Also lot of Progressive backlash on Modi is water off the duck’s back. Thats y Biden presidency will have no material impact on Indo-US ties. Hell i think Modi might propose Biden-BLM to keep on criticizing him as long as he reverses Trump polices and gives India some goodies back (Visa stuff, Preferential trade, arms) etc.

Most of India’s irk on progressive hate is due to the lead taken by Indian origin senators (who Indians think as their own) and seems to carry more weight, than some random white senator criticizing Indian polices.

https://www.orfonline.org/expert-speak/biden-speaks-to-india-69198/

“In the end, fears that a Democratic administration may not be as friendly to India as a Republican one, especially given the feelings around Modi, are somewhat exaggerated. “

Son Goku
Son Goku
3 years ago

I still dont get what is a high steppe Punjabi look precisely? All I see in the Italian streets are these:
https://youtu.be/VdXjfzPpJYg
Maybe they are high AASI group and not Jatt?

APthk
3 years ago
Reply to  Son Goku

Take a look at the pictures I posted. Why are you specifically speaking of the Punjab? This is not limited to the Punjab by any means. Hindu Jats from Haryana, West UP and Rajasthan all have higher Steppe and lower AASI levels than most Punjabi Jats who are Sikh. I’ve met some Jat Sikhs, and while plenty have identical appearances to Hindu Jats, a significant minority are clearly not Jat, as they are mixed/arent’t Jat to begin with. This is evident from their appearance.

Which makes sense, as some Jat Sikhs will intermarry across caste lines (Sikhism doesnt allow for a Caste system according to the Guru’s teachings, but ironically, it still exists) whereas Hindu Jats will not intermarry in the vast majority of cases and are historically more endogamous. Historically, Punjab has been more liberal with respect to caste/intermarriage due to Sikh influence/regional idiosyncrasies. This has also influenced some communities like the Khatri, leading to a chunk of them being more urbanized/liberal when it comes to social dynamics and marriage.

Finally, how do you know those turbaned dancers you linked are Jat? You just see a turbaned individual and assume they are Jat? Or do you blindly believe someone based on their surname/claims of being a Jat? Do you really think people who look similar to other biradris and radically different from “pure” Jats are truly who they claim to be? I think not. Anyway, online debates won’t change reality; if Jats didnt look different from other Indians there would be no point to the caste system/biradris/endogamy to begin with and they all would have mixed with the general populace, due to their inability to tell each other apart. We all know that isn’t this case.

APthk
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

You’re correct, I’m just speaking from personal experience; I’ve lived in a Jatt community in the subcontinent before, and met plenty of them, so it is definitely true they recognize their own people. I’m also American, and not as much of an emic insider as the more rural Jatts.

The genetic evidence bears out the isolation of neighboring communities, definitely. I just find it odd that so many other South Asians claim to have never met a Jatt that looks “different”, whatever that means. One reason could be that they run into Jatts that are on the ethnic end of the spectrum, of which there are quite a few, as I mentioned before.

There are several other possibilities, and you mentioned some yourself. I am not expert in the field of genetics unlike you, and I defer to your expertise in that regard. The most I can offer are observations/experiences with regard to diverse phenotypes and distinctions between Jats vs. other castes/communities.

APthk
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

No, I agree with your observations. All I’m saying is, Jats have a range of appearances from “White”-looking to West-Asian looking to what can best be described as a “Baloch” look. The skin color ranges from brown to white, with olive being most common. This is what I’ve seen, and I’m just speaking from experience.

As far as whether siblings can look different, most definitely — one of my aunts looks very ethnic to the point that she can’t pass west of Baluchestan, whereas my other aunt looks straight out of Chechnya. My mother and uncle are the same. So the phenotype diversity is immense and very few families have members that all appear to be “White” in the American sense exclusively. The only consistent thing I’ve noticed is that none of them look like generic South Asians you see all over the country and all can pass somewhere outside of the subcontinent, even if that means some only pass in SE Iran. Other people can also offer their input.

I had a question about the Brazilian example — IIRC “White” Brazilians are also around 15-16% non-West Eurasian — in this regard how are they similar to Hindu Jats, who are also around 14-15% AASI, and how are they different? How would their phenotype differ in terms of looking like their ancestral groups? I would love to learn. I’ve been following you since the Gene expression days, and admire your scholarship and erudition. Definitely in a league of scholars not encountered often, and I’m saying this as someone that knows quite a few accomplished people in STEM fields. Thanks for your insights as always.

DaThang
DaThang
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

15% would be an Afghan value, Jats are more like 20%.

APthk
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

Actually, Hindu Jats are around 10-15% AASI as Razib himself has stated on this blog before. (in addition to other published data) Some Rors are on the lower end of that, and Hindu Jats are closer to 14-15% AASI on average.

Sikh Jats, Khatris and other biradris can have higher averages of course (around 16-17% on average), for obvious reasons as mentioned earlier, but I’ve never seen one as high as 20%; though there are always outliers in the data.

Afghan Pashtuns themselves are not different from other NW South Asian groups — they are around 87% West Eurasian on average, and have a large range of values, including outliers, from around ~80% to ~90% West Eurasian. This is to be expected, as they live further West and have also mixed with Tajiks and Persians/Other predominantly Mongoloid ethnic groups in certain cases.

In any case, I haven’t noticed any facial/phenotypic differences among Pashtuns and both Hindu or Sikh Jats, along with some other biradris. Most Tajiks have too much East Asian admixture and dont look Caucasian, but the ones that are relatively “purer” also fit in among Pashtuns and Jats for the most part. Once in a While, you come across a Yaghnobi or Pamiri Tajik that has a very less ethnic appearance, but that is far from the norm. Afghans as a whole will never be considered foreigners among Haryanvi and Punjabi Biradri communities, if we are talking about their facial appearance/phenotype. They could actually make for some very good spies in this regard.

DaThang
DaThang
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

additional aasi =/= total aasi

10% might be additional but total is 20%

Target,Distance,IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA1,IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2,RUS_Sintashta_MLBA,S_AASI_Sim(Irula)
Ror,0.01690880,7.0,48.0,40.4,4.6
Jatt_Pathak,0.02403892,11.6,40.8,40.6,7.0
Punjabi_Jatt,0.01672570,12.2,52.8,30.0,5.0
Average,0.01922447,10.3,47.2,37.0,5.5

Shahr BA2 is 32% AASI.

APthk
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

The exact values are far from definitive, all we know for sure is that Jats are >80% West Eurasian. Depending on the simulation/model, they either come out as 84% or 85/86% West Eurasian, while other models differ and put them closer to 83% on average. It’s all speculation.

I’m familiar with the amateur modeling done by amateurs/novice members at Anthrogenica, not only is it conducted by people with no credentials whatsoever in this discipline, but it is also nowhere near official, nor accurate, as it is far from peer-reviewed, published data. Also, it is based on a paucity of adequate ancient DNA; and uses arbitrary models that make wide-ranging assumptions and suffer from over-fitting and other issues. We need more ancient DNA sources to arrive at an exact or even correct estimate (or close to it).

Until then, I trust Razib’s estimates, he actually has credentials in this discipline, and estimates the average is around 85% West Eurasian for Hindu Jats. Only PCA modeling can give us an idea of AASI affinities, like Razib pointed out. A concrete estimate is basically impossible at this point. And regarding SISBA2, they found various samples, and some are much lower than 32%, some a little lower, and some even higher %. You can’t arbitrarily pick a value and run with it. Some people just average all the samples to get an arbitrary value. It can drastically change the West Eurasian estimates, and is just an exercise in stupidity. Goes back to the whole exercise being based on a litany of assumptions and conjecture.

DaThang
DaThang
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

I am not using arbitrary values, I used the average of the Shahr BA2 population group.

Furthermore, we don’t even know of the Iran-related ancestry really is mostly west Eurasian at all, there are very high basal estimates coming from preprints along with some kind of AASI-like input as well. It can turn out to only be minority west Eurasian.

>I’m familiar with the amateur modeling done by amateurs/novice members at Anthrogenica, not only is it conducted by people with no credentials whatsoever in this discipline, but it is also nowhere near official, nor accurate, as it is far from peer-reviewed, published data.

And you still use their 14% or 15% estimate to suit your view.

>Until then, I trust Razib’s estimates, he actually has credentials in this discipline, and estimates the average is around 85% West Eurasian for Hindu Jats.

Where? I see him clarifying that there is AASI in IVC to you recently.

Prats
Prats
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

“Other people can also offer their input.”

One can say that Indians think of Jats as Indians with a slight ‘ethnic’ appearance.

Most large groups in India have looks in a wide range – from West Asian to Tamil.
(Think Priti Patel vs Dev Patel)

And most Indians acknowledge that as you move north-west, the melanin content goes down on average.

Jats just fit into that pattern.

Their somewhat ‘different’ phenotype might be important to them and their neighbours in districts where they are found in large numbers.

But it is not of much importance outside of them. This is not to say that Indians don’t have a fascination with fair skin. Just that it doesn’t translate into much material advantage except in certain fields like modelling. More so, because most of the marriages are arranged and within the same caste, there is not the same competition for mating as in western societies.

Jats (or people who self-identify as such) themselves show a wide variety in phenotype as far as skin colour is concerned. Think of Prateek Kuhad, who looks somewhat like the Tamil actor Dhanush or Virendra Sehwag or Randeep Hooda or the current deputy chief minister of Haryana, Dushyant Chautala. Some others like Vijendra Singh can probably pass as white in the US.

(I’d be curious to learn who of these are real Jats according to you.)

So the association of Jats with “white” people is not very strong in India. Kashmiris have a much stronger association in this respect.

“Whiteness” in India in any case also factors in cultural distance apart from colour and in that regard Indian Jats are pretty Indian. My hunch is, you being mistaken for white might have more to do with your being an American than your being a Jat. Could be wrong.

Even Afghans, who are clearly lighter skinned than most Jats can often pass as ‘ethnic’ Indians since there are enough Ashrafs strewn around north India.

I understand that things are different in the US. The racial boundaries are more clearly defined and rigid. And falling on the right side of it can grant you certain privileges (or rather help you avoid inconveniences).

The way these boundaries are currently set up means Jats, with a right-ward shift in steppe distribution, will have a higher percentage of population falling on the white side of it.

In which case, good on such people. They have the optionality to pass as white or Indian depending on context.

PS – There are certain phenotypical markers for Jats that are probably stronger than skin colour — square-ish jaw and bushy eyebrows, for example.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

“I’d be curious to learn who of these are real Jats according to you”

Didn’t u read, the one who look white are, the others are gwalas.

APthk
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

Why do you guys even care who Jats consider to be Jats? I find it a little hilarious, I mind my own business, I expect others to do the same. It’s not like my opinions matter more than those of others anyway. All I’ll say is, a real Jatt knows what a Jatt looks like, whereas most other South Asians have no idea. And finally, Dathang, as far as any discussion of numbers is concerned, you need to acknowledge that none of this is definitive, and everything is based on guesswork at this point, owing to ancient DNA deficiencies. The modeling you keep alluding to is, like I mentioned previously, is nothing but an amateur simulation with many holes and deficiencies.
You also didn’t read what I mentioned in my own post —
“The exact values are far from definitive, all we know for sure is that Jats are >80% West Eurasian. Depending on the simulation/model, they either come out as 84% or 85/86% West Eurasian, while other models differ and put them closer to 83% on average. It’s all speculation.
Until then, I trust Razib’s estimates, he actually has credentials in this discipline, and estimates the average is around 85% West Eurasian for Hindu Jats. Only PCA modeling can give us an idea of AASI affinities, like Razib pointed out. A concrete estimate is basically impossible at this point.
And regarding SISBA2, they found various samples, and some are much lower than 32%, some a little lower, and some even higher %. You can’t arbitrarily pick a value and run with it. Some people just average all the samples to get an arbitrary value. It can drastically change the West Eurasian estimates, and is just an exercise in stupidity. Goes back to the whole exercise being based on a litany of assumptions and conjecture.”
So I pointed out that I only trust Razib and other researchers who have the proper credentials and have published research. I never claimed to trust the estimates they come up with at AG “to suit my view” — I said it was all speculation and incorrect –you are simply putting words in my mouth and not reading my posts carefully.
I also mentioned that I knew you must have averaged all the values to come up with that number for SISBA2. What makes you think you can arrive at the accurate estimate with this method? You are just playing around with numbers at this point, owing to lack of sufficient information, no different from what an amateur would do, which is what you are. There is no way of knowing how accurate it is for different groups. It isn’t one-size-fits-all.
You also mention how Iran_North is an ambiguously defined component. It may well be. I’ve said multiple times already that this whole area of discussion is based on many assumptions that can all fall apart with more information. Which is exactly why your claims of West Eurasian ancestry estimates in Jats, which is based on amateur modeling by hobbyists and novices with too much time on their hands, holds no relevance to me.
Finally, Razib has stated multiple times that Hindu Jats and Rors have a little more AASI than the Kalash, and previously, he wrote a post saying that Jats were around `~10% AASI, which prompted an inquiry that was clarified:
“Are Jat Rors really only 10% AASI?
Also what does this indicate about the relative distribution of AASI, IVC and steppe? And how common were people of each type?
Answer: Razib’s referring to the AASI that they have in addition to whatever’s attributable to their IVC_periphery-related admixture in qpAdm.
 If we assume AASI is ENA, then Haryana Jats and Rors are around 15% AASI. So in general they actually are pretty close to being around 10% AASI. 
And yeah, they look “Caucasoid”, and their cranio-facial measurements don’t show any deviation at all towards the hunter-gatherer populations of Southern Asia and Australasia. So it shouldn’t be surprising that their AASI admixture is weak enough to not show up in their phenotypes.
”

He reiterated this later, saying Jats were around 10-15% AASI, again, which, when including all of the AASI admixture from the IVC in his three-way model, would put them at around 84-85% West Eurasian. Of course, the caveat being its a rough estimate, and PCA plotting still takes precedence in giving us a better idea of AASI-affinity until we have more ancient DNA.

Keep in mind 85% West Eurasian is just an average estimate for the caste, it means that Jats range from 83-86% West Eurasian, and Rors perhaps slightly more. Whatever the exact value, its certainly considerably more than 80% West Eurasian. Let’s see how future developments impact these estimates. Either way, it won’t change much, there is a reason Jats look distinct.

Prats
Prats
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

“Why do you guys even care who Jats consider to be Jats?”

You are mistaking curiosity for care.

“I find it a little hilarious, I mind my own business, I expect others to do the same.”

Pardon me for assuming you were inviting a discussion. Your comments give every indication you were.

DaThang
DaThang
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

@apthk

>So I pointed out that I only trust Razib and other researchers who have the proper credentials and have published research.

Walk the talk and trust him with what he says, 10% to 15% on top of what is already present in the IVC.

>Until then, I trust Razib’s estimates, he actually has credentials in this discipline, and estimates the average is around 85% West Eurasian for Hindu Jats. Only PCA modeling can give us an idea of AASI affinities, like Razib pointed out. A concrete estimate is basically impossible at this point.

We can still get a good idea by using global25 and qpadm with the appropriate inputs. This can be done with the Shahr BA2 average as well, modeling using various Iran inputs + simulated AASI + the token anatolian component just to make sure that we cover as much as possible with a decent fit value.

>I also mentioned that I knew you must have averaged all the values to come up with that number for SISBA2. What makes you think you can arrive at the accurate estimate with this method?

The fit values as fine, if they weren’t something would be off (like using yamnaya + iran copper age farmer + onge as an example of a bad model). If you specifically picked the less AASI rich BA2 samples then the model would want more AASI and the converse is true as well.

> You are just playing around with numbers at this point, owing to lack of sufficient information, no different from what an amateur would do, which is what you are. There is no way of knowing how accurate it is for different groups. It isn’t one-size-fits-all.

I have repeatedly stated that the litmus test would be the fit value. Work with what you have.

>You also mention how Iran_North is an ambiguously defined component. It may well be. I’ve said multiple times already that this whole area of discussion is based on many assumptions that can all fall apart with more information.

Iran mesolithic’s model is much less concrete than the model that can be made for Jats using the bronze age + one simulated population/alternatively the simulation can be replaced by a modern population with a very high amount of the simulated ancestry but that will reduce the IVC component by a bit.

>He reiterated this later, saying Jats were around 10-15% AASI, again, which, when including all of the AASI admixture from the IVC in his three-way model, would put them at around 84-85% West Eurasian.

I will be quoting Razib more completely:
“in a model where kalash have 0 AASI (70% indus + 30% steppe), the jat/ror are 10-15% AASI and 30-40% steppe”

*IF* the AASI in Kalash is set at 0 (outside of the AASI in IVC) then Jats have a 10% to 15% *ADDITIONAL* AASI input (outside of the AASI inherited from IVC). Saying that the 10% to 15% AASI is the total amount implies that *ALL* of the IVC component is west Eurasian with *NO* AASI at all. It seems that you misunderstand what he is saying.
By the way, which state are you originally from?

APthk
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

“Walk the talk and trust him with what he says, 10% to 15% on top of what is already present in the IVC.”

I am “walking the talk” — lets assume its an additional ~10%-15% AASI (which number is it? What if its not even in this range?) on top of whatever is already in the IVC (how much is present in the IVC? How confident are we about this ancestry estimate?). Where does that leave us? Around ~81-85% West Eurasian excluding outliers. What’s important to remember is that this is just a rough estimate, not a definitive one, which explains the range among other things. In other words, we are taking a lot of things for granted at the outset, and assuming we truly know how much AASI is present in each of these components, which is certainly not the case. I trust Razib more than these self-proclaimed “experts” on AG and other forums, but even he doesn’t have all the answers owing to a lack of ancient DNA among other issues. No one does.

“We can still get a good idea by using global25 and qpadm with the appropriate inputs. This can be done with the Shahr BA2 average as well, modeling using various Iran inputs + simulated AASI + the token anatolian component just to make sure that we cover as much as possible with a decent fit value. I have repeatedly stated that the litmus test would be the fit value. Work with what you have. The fit values as fine, if they weren’t something would be off (like using yamnaya + iran copper age farmer + onge as an example of a bad model). If you specifically picked the less AASI rich BA2 samples then the model would want more AASI and the converse is true as well. Iran mesolithic’s model is much less concrete than the model that can be made for Jats using the bronze age + one simulated population/alternatively the simulation can be replaced by a modern population with a very high amount of the simulated ancestry but that will reduce the IVC component by a bit. *IF* the AASI in Kalash is set at 0 (outside of the AASI in IVC) then Jats have a 10% to 15% *ADDITIONAL* AASI input (outside of the AASI inherited from IVC).”

I am not interested in a “good idea” or a “decent fit value” whatsoever. I am not interested in simply “working with what I have” either. I want completely accurate, well elucidated results that are true without any shred of a doubt. And I want these results published in a high-impact, peer-reviewed journal by reputed researchers with the requisite credentials who can guarantee the fidelity of their results. We are talking about something as sensitive and important as one’s identity here. Every % and every single number and component matters a LOT. You can’t play with such seminal things as one’s identity by using amateur modeling and expect people to take your claims at face value. Especially when the model whose fit values you reference is not even completely accurate and based on a boatload of assumptions.

Until we have the complete original sources of ancestry for all of these populations and these are assessed via formal methods by the experts, and corroborated through other forms of analysis like IBD segment sharing, F3/4 statistics, uniparentals, etc, along with rejecting alternate hypotheses and having the results independently verified by a qualified third party, nothing is definitive. So this is all preliminary data or a fluke result for many reasons. I’m glad you accept that neither model is concrete, whether one is more accurate relative to another is really a moot point. Both models need to be rock-solid to be taken seriously.

As for your last sentence, do you even know if the ancestry proportions and estimates for the Kalash are 100% accurate? What about the IVC model and its AASI proportions? Why is there a relatively large range of ancestry when Jatts are so endogamous? A single % off here and there has large consequences for the final result. It is almost impossible to draw such concrete conclusions about all South Asians, especially Jatts, using a one-size-fits all approach, particularly when ancient DNA is lacking and South Asian archaeogenetic research is still in its infancy. You can be my guest and assume that everything is 100% accurate. I know better, since I’ve seen this field change every year with new discoveries and insights, and will not jump to conclusions as if they were definitive.

Are you a scientific researcher? NO. Do you have the necessary credentials? NO. Can you guarantee that these models and values are 100% correct? NO. Do you have all the ancient DNA and requisite information/samples needed to come to a conclusion about the correct ancestral proportions? NO. Using “simulated AASI” and arbitrary averages alongside other simulated components is just further proving my point. You are just wasting my time.


“By the way, which state are you originally from?”

Not important to know. I consider myself American first. The only reason I am interested in understanding my ancestry is because I hardly run into Jats in the diaspora and I always wondered why other most South Asians have a unique appearance compared to them. All I’ve learned so far is that Jatts have different proportions of certain ancestral components not found in all South Asians. Makes sense. As far as % go, only time will tell exactly what proportions of each component we have. Good night.

DaThang
DaThang
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

@APthk

>I am “walking the talk” — lets assume its an additional ~10%-15% AASI (which number is it? What if its not even in this range?) on top of whatever is already in the IVC (how much is present in the IVC? How confident are we about this ancestry estimate?). Where does that leave us? Around ~81-85% West Eurasian excluding outliers.

85% west Eurasian aside from the additional AASI (lets say 10%) means 5% non-west Eurasian from IVC which is too low. Use an aasi poor periphery as an input and the target will want extra aasi on the side. The AASI value for Shahr BA2’s group average is 32% with a decent least squares distance. If you use the least AASI-rich BA2 sample the simulated component will end up being bigger because that AASI ancestral component will go somewhere as opposed to disappearing. Try if out yourself.

>What’s important to remember is that this is just a rough estimate, not a definitive one, which explains the range among other things. In other words, we are taking a lot of things for granted at the outset, and assuming we truly know how much AASI is present in each of these components, which is certainly not the case. I trust Razib more than these self-proclaimed “experts” on AG and other forums, but even he doesn’t have all the answers owing to a lack of ancient DNA among other issues. No one does.

We have enough ancient DNA to produce accurate models, won’t be exact and they will get better over time but 15% is not the overall AASI average as you stated earlier on, it is more like 20%.

> I want completely accurate, well elucidated results that are true without any shred of a doubt. And I want these results published in a high-impact, peer-reviewed journal by reputed researchers with the requisite credentials who can guarantee the fidelity of their results.

Those numbers aren’t going to change radically for the recent populations, just a little bit, and the gist from the 2018 and 2019 papers was that the AASI was going to go up since Onge isn’t a good reference. I have seen this myself using Onge as an input vs a simulated component. You can wait for the numbers to rise but don’t expect a big paper to actually look into a particular specific population. That cell paper labeled all of steppe as steppe_mlba (strange move) and fooled enough midwits into thinking that it meant Sintashta as opposed to Sintashta + BMAC + things that seem to be BMAC; and thus making an ass of themselves anonymously online even after my repeated attempts at convincing them otherwise. Don’t export your thought process to someone else. Take evidence from sources but piece it together on your own.

>Until we have the complete original sources of ancestry for all of these populations and these are assessed via formal methods by the experts, and corroborated through other forms of analysis like IBD segment sharing, F3/4 statistics, uniparentals, etc, along with rejecting alternate hypotheses and having the results independently verified by a qualified third party, nothing is definitive. So this is all preliminary data or a fluke result for many reasons. I’m glad you accept that neither model is concrete, whether one is more accurate relative to another is really a moot point. Both models need to be rock-solid to be taken seriously.

Shooting something off by a centimeter isn’t the same as being off by a meter. The f3/f4 statistics from the 2018 cell paper didn’t check for affinity to AASI so you don’t have much to offer in that regard. They did check emba and ehg affinity and those affinity for jats was comparable to sardinians (much less than most southern europeans) and north italians respectively so it isn’t a yuge part of the ancestry. A least squares fit value of less than 2 isn’t a fluke.

>As for your last sentence, do you even know if the ancestry proportions and estimates for the Kalash are 100% accurate? What about the IVC model and its AASI proportions?

Razib put forth the Kalash as a comparison so ask him. Nothing has an exact least squares distance of 0 unless you are using your own parents and immediate ancestry.

Certain proportions will vary based on the inputs, for instance using Sarazm + Ganj Dareh can give you a better fit, but Saraazm will eat away any actual Ganj Dareh-like component if itself has Ganj Dareh-like ancestry. Note a component being present doesn’t mean that those very samples are ancestral (like ganj dareh number 3 or whatever), rather if the fit is good then they are good estimates for the GD-like source or Hotu-like source .etc.

If a combo gives say Rors for example less SB2, then it generally raises the simulated AASI component, this is because there is an actual AASI component going somewhere, either in one category or another depending on inputs, but the group average amount always remains around 20% or more as long as the fit is good. And while the fits are generally not going to be less than 1, they all converge to similar results of over 15% AASI in Rors and Jats. So even if we change west Eurasian to non-AASI, 85% is still too high for a group value, and you’ve been pushing around that number without a source btw, you first listed Razib (who didn’t state the overall ancestry, just the extra AASI) and then just went with it anyway.

>Are you a scientific researcher? NO. Do you have the necessary credentials? NO. Can you guarantee that these models and values are 100% correct? NO. Do you have all the ancient DNA and requisite information/samples needed to come to a conclusion about the correct ancestral proportions? NO. Using “simulated AASI” and arbitrary averages alongside other simulated components is just further proving my point. You are just wasting my time.

Look if this was truly arbitrary and not even close to the truth, we wouldn’t be seeing such consistency to the point where you can absolutely not model the Jat and Ror averge as having as little as 15% AASI ancestry without it having a poor fit value (model being rather distant to the actual target at hand).

>Not important to know. I consider myself American first. The only reason I am interested in understanding my ancestry is because I hardly run into Jats in the diaspora and I always wondered why other most South Asians have a unique appearance compared to them. All I’ve learned so far is that Jatts have different proportions of certain ancestral components not found in all South Asians. Makes sense. As far as % go, only time will tell exactly what proportions of each component we have. Good night.

I don’t know man, this kind of makes me suspicious of you being a Jat at all, mainly because you sound just like a certain guy who used to cross post on different websites (your insistence on not investigating anything on your own and wanting some published paper for every little fact, and then somehow running with a value that you seem to have accepted on your own regardless). And that guy’s ancestry is definitely not Jat, won’t be outing him just in case if you aren’t him.

So far you’ve said that you want PCA, and global 25 does that, not it does more than that by using more than the principal components.

Bhatt
Bhatt
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

In north, whenever we see the “pahadi looks”, we assume the person to be from Uttarakhand, Himachal Pradesh or sometimes even from J&K.

Sumit
Sumit
3 years ago

Basically due to economic reasons Jatts are a “forward caste” in Punjab. And for linguistic reasons called Jatts vs Jaats from Hindi speaking states.

Btw High steppe Haryana Rors are OBC ‘gauwalas’ not Jatts.

From a Vedic perspective the economically more backward “gauwalas” are the real Vaishyas.

The very prosperous mercantile groups that are considered Vaishya now don’t really fit the early scriptures. (Which makes sense when you consider the steppe pastoralists didn’t have any cities early on)

In any event the average Indian person only really knows the rough “caste rankings” in their local area. How each Jati ranks compared to each other on various metrics on average.

So for eg. khatris and are considered OBCs in Rajasthan, and Gujarat but regarded as high caste in Punjab. A Gujarati is not going to know about high status of Punjabi Khatris or vice versa unless they read about it online or something.

An American reading some abstract scholarship on the 4 Varnas based on the manusmriti is truly going to be confused and out of their depth.

APthk
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

You know better, boss. I also know that we need more autosomal DNA to truly decipher just how much AASI everyone from the Pashtuns to the Tamils carries — everything else is just conjecture, and a good-faith estimate.

Some amateur modelers have tried their hand at this, and while I am completely ignorant of the technical details, they claim that Hindu Jats and most Rors are right around ~14-15% ENA or AASI, and some higher-K runs have shown that from the beginning. Again, just educated guesswork with over-fitting perhaps. Hopefully this mystery is fully decoded one day.

Vikram
3 years ago

I think APthk is correct in pointing out that a lot of folks from NW India and NE India could be seen (and might even identify) as non-Indian.

That being said, the cultural capital associated with being Indian is substantial. It is one of the world’s major civilizations, and memetics is likely to triumph genetics here, definitely for the NW folks, and dare I say, for the NE ones as well.

The appeal of Indian culture is not to be underestimated. Despite our wretched, native informant suffused literature over the last 100 years, both Mahabharata and Ramayana remain ahead of anything the Anglos have produced so far, they are getting close though.

See here: https://www.quora.com/q/jkwqbriypztidzmr/The-Mahabharata
“The Mahabharata unveils an entirely deeper dimension of philosophical and cultural awareness — that existed in both ancient India and ancient Greece — but was not captured in The Iliad.”

Sumit
Sumit
3 years ago
Reply to  Vikram

How are we defining Indian here ?

I find people always have a sort of UP or MP person stereotype in mind as being the most archetypal ‘Indian’.

The further North, East, South, and West of that core area we go people are different from ‘Indians’ culturally, linguistically, or in looks.

Vikram
3 years ago
Reply to  Sumit

I think the ambit is expanding, and people are recognizing that someone calling themselves as an Indian is claiming membership of a political and civilizational entity, and has little to do with genetics.

The Brits saw this but never acknowledged it. Denial perhaps, or perhaps it suited their political goals ?

Sumit
Sumit
3 years ago
Reply to  Vikram

I am kind of a big tent Indian. Everyone is welcome who wishes to join and has some connection to the sub-continent.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago
Reply to  Sumit

I am kind of small tent Indian, each ethnicity is on its own, and if they want to “Indian” , they should come with no conditions attached, not as if they are doing a favor to India.

Vikram
3 years ago
Reply to  Sumit

Yes, I would say big tent Indian is the general attitude amongst Indians. It is actually a very accommodating place.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago
Reply to  Vikram

” I think APthk is correct in pointing out that a lot of folks from NW India and NE India could be seen (and might even identify) as non-Indian.”

I would say as the years pass by, more (operating word) and more NW/NE Indians see themselves as Indian. A decade back you would hardly meet Assamese/ Jats who would identity as “Hindu” . The caste/regional pride would take precedence. Now its touch and go.

The reverse is also true somewhat as previously Indian identifying folks of East/South has grown more unconformable with their Indian identity as India becomes more Hindu.

Vikram
3 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

I think this discomfort is overstated, and has more to do with contingent political factors (language status, federal issues) than any broader fissure.

Milan Todorovic
Milan Todorovic
3 years ago
Reply to  Vikram

The term ‘ancient Greece’ is an oxymoron. The name ‘Greek’ was used almost 1000 years after the Trojan battle. In this period, they also haven’t seen Mt. Olympus and could not have ‘Olympian’ mythology. AT the time of the battle they hardly lived in today’s Greece, not mentioning that they did not have kingdoms and kings. Much later (even in Alexander’s time) they had only cities-policies. Dardans lived in Troy, not people who will be 1000 years later, after Roman conquering, named as Greeks. There is also an interesting question – are there Aryans in Mahabharata or any other connection with Aryans. Arjun and Anan found very interesting similarities btw Iliad and Mahabharata and they still research this topic.

Vikram
3 years ago

“are there Aryans in Mahabharata or any other connection with Aryans.”

An-Arya is used in the Mahabharata, but in the sense of describing conduct, not as a racial identifier.

The central character of the Mahabharata is Krishna, whose name literally means black ….

Milan Todorovic
Milan Todorovic
3 years ago
Reply to  Vikram

Txs. I did not think about Aryans as a racial identifier. I was thinking – is there any character/family that belong to the recent SA migrants? This is a very difficult question, as far as I know, no one asked (nor answered) this before. Do you accept my timeline and my rationale that the Iliad is not about the future Greeks?

Sumit
Sumit
3 years ago

It mentions “Yavanas” (The word comes from “ionians” and I think used to talk about Indo Greeks). They are considered among the “Melchha” ie non Aryan kingdoms.

Commentator/Seinundzeit
Commentator/Seinundzeit
3 years ago

@DaThing

Shahr BA2 is around 25% AASI.

@APthk

A few things here:

I would agree with the notion that Haryana Jats and Rors are West Eurasian populations. You can see that with K-means, mclust, and FINE STRUCTURE.

^ I’m not gonna get bogged down with the ontological issues at play with our conceptualizations of human genetic variation (in relation to geography). The complexity of reality will always far exceed any attempt by the human subject to model it; that itself is just baked into the human-world relation qua thought.

So, I know that “West Eurasian” (like any category) is far from being an unambiguous “fact” of nature. Exactly like how it’s ancestor in physical anthropology (“Caucasoid”) was never an unambiguous “fact” of nature.

But for the pragmatic purposes of scientific discourse, “West Eurasian” (and “Caucasoid”) is a useful concept which works (as long as we refuse the mistake of reification). And in the context of that concept, Jats and Rors are certainly West Eurasian/Caucasoid.

But, do you honestly think that Pashtuns and Haryana Jats look similar?

I’m sure there’s overlap (and I’ll note that I’ve never met a Haryanvi Jat in the flesh. Also, your sister’s friend in a flowery shirt could pass as a Pashtuna, going by that picture), but I don’t think that these are interchangeable populations.

Northeastern Pashtuns

comment image?itok=zejI2om4

comment image

Central Pashtuns

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EaFtaA1XsAAr46Z?format=jpg&name=medium

https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/pakistan-wana-militant-taliban-rebels-of-the-wazirtribe-near-the-town-picture-id548179181?s=2048×2048

Southwestern Pashtuns

comment image?itok=103EjMFM

comment image

Do you think these people look like Jats? And I honestly ask that (because I don’t know how Jats look in person, but I definitely know how Pashtuns look in person).

PS: Why are you so “racist”? (“Racist” here meant in the common manner of everyday speech). Or would take umbrage at such a characterization?

APthk
3 years ago

I don’t think its informative to discuss this at such a detailed level, but to answer your questions:

The men you linked in the Northeastern Pashtuns: All pass easily

The men you linked in Southwestern Pashtuns: All pass easily

The men you linked in Central Pashtuns:
All pass in the easily in the second link
In the first link, the man in the foreground on the left side wearing a watch doesn’t pass, and the man with his hands in his lap second from right doesn’t pass either. They appear to have some Mongoloid influence.

So essentially all those man pass among Hindu Jats in Haryana/West UP/Rajathan. I’ve seen many men from these ethnic groups in real life owing to my ancestry, and I’ve also seen many Pashtuns here in the DMV area. Here is a video from the Afghan-American conference held in DC a few years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5Za8eHQb6o

Every single man and woman in that video passes with flying colors among Hindu Jats. I’ve also seen other conference videos from subsequent years, and well, the same applies. And that is not all, I went to college with an Afghan Pashtun who looked like a Jatt, and met his relatives as well. Him/his entire family assumed I was Persian when they met me, and when I told them I was from India they were incredulous.

But passing as Persian is really a moot point. I’ve passed as far West as Slavic countries, along with many of my family members. I understand you haven’t met any Hindu Jats in real life, but they really don’t look any different from these men. There is even more diversity among us that isn’t shown here, for instance, some men and women with blonde hair/blue eyes or red hair and fairer skin, but I presume those individuals exist among Pashtuns as well.

You probably know that Hindu Jats and Rors are around 84-87% West Eurasian, so it shouldnt come as a surprise that they overlap with other West Eurasian groups in South Asia, including Pashtuns. Let me know if you would like to communicate further, perhaps we can do so over email.

Finally, I don’t take kindly to being labeled a racist. Perhaps you are mistaking me for someone else. Discussing racial phenotypes and differences and caste dynamics vs. other South Asian groups does not a racist make. Choose your words carefully next time.

Vikram
3 years ago

APthk, have you considered the view that Jats/Jatts/Jaats might not consider themselves Indian because of the relatively minor role they have had in Indian history ? This could explain why their attitudes are quite different from folks like Kashmiri Hindus who identify quite strongly as Indian, but have similar genetics ?

Vikram
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

“also lots of jats feel this way. especially diasporic ones.”

Right, and I am wondering if this feeling is rooted in a sense of historical unimportance, which is being compensated for by assertions of racial superiority.

Honestly though, I dont think upper caste Hindus, especially Brahmins, have ever thought of ‘West Eurasians’ or anyone else being superior to them.

justanotherlurker
justanotherlurker
3 years ago

Sorry for kicking the hornet’s nest and then being MIA (was busy) 🙂 Haven’t read most of the comments here but a few quick thoughts:
– Jats are a non-forward caste like Patels are in Gujarat or Marathas in Maharashtra. This doesn’t preclude local dominance / preeminence..Heck the Marathas even built an empire that dislodged the Mughals and would have remade India (even more than they did) had they not lost to the biggest superpower of the world – the Brits. Patels, as is written about often, only got elevated in status in the last 150 or so years (partly driven by vegetarianization due to conversion to the Swaminarayan sampraday) but are now dominant in every way in Gujarat.
– Jats/Jatts are known/ sometimes made fun of for their rusticness / uncouthness..It’s a common enough trope in Haryana and Punjab (both sides). Anecdote: Once in a group of friends, when Vijender Singh the boxer had won an Olympic medal and was in the news, one girl was talking about how good looking he was..Another girl, a Haryana Agrawal and hence very familiar with Jats, retorted “wait until he opens his Jat mouth” 🙂
– Jats (also Patels and other farmer castes) have more recently in the last 30-40 years have come up on a lot of wealth as land prices in outskirts of major cities have shot up
– Yes, there is a significant minority of Jats who look a bit different (ethnic as another poster said) – Vijender and Nikki Haley are two examples, but plenty like Virender Sehwag and Dushyant Chautala are no different and would fit in quite nicely even in Central/Southern India..It is ridiculous to imply that Jats would be more at home in Romania or Georgia (some exceptions notwithstanding)…lol..one only has to Google image search Haryana Jats to disabuse oneself of such notions

– Some NW groups have a bit of a racialist superiority complex, no doubt..Although with the tremendous success of South Indians, Brahmins but also others like Reddys (and many other communities) who are very Indian looking, you see the some of this dynamic changing. The Jat poster here would be surprised perhaps that most of these Southern groups would be quite aghast at an alliance of their child with his European looking self (back in the home country) 🙂

– This particular Jat poster probably overestimates how separate Khatris/Aroras/”high caste” Sindhis feel from other Hindus/Indians..Given his racialist attitudes he probably attracts his type of people from these communities and extrapolates broadly from there. I know dozens of people from these types who for one don’t on average look that different (that is most are not Nikki Haley types) and secondly are perfectly content and happy to be part of Indian groupings..

– Where is thewarlock when we need his wisdom? 🙂

Sumit
Sumit
3 years ago

“Jats are a non-forward caste”

Punjabi Jatts are ‘forward caste’ based on the state government’s classification. However considered part of the lowest varna historically.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forward_caste

Along the same lines there are Brahmin varna communities that have OBC status.

http://www.quora.com/Which-Brahmin-groups-are-conferred-the-OBC-status-by-the-government

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago

residency started bhai

Recently, I saw an old man, sick man, dying man, and one committed to his work to the point of asceticism. I was making progress. Then I read this thread and came back to the point of thorough unenlightenment. In the word of a bigly smart man, “Sad!”

justanotherlurker
justanotherlurker
3 years ago

PS: Jats demanding backward status: https://indianexpress.com/article/explained/backward-march-what-the-jats-want/

PS2: Jats are not unique in being considered non-forward while being somewhat more Steppe than their upper caste neighbors. There are other such communities across North/West India

Vikram
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

I have never seen Punjabi Khatris express such views, a lot of them end up marrying Bengalis and Tamils for some reason. Not met too many Sindhis.

I think the other groups that I have seen expressing ‘we are not dark Indians’ kinds of views are high caste Nepalis and Pakistanis.

Sumit
Sumit
3 years ago
Reply to  Vikram

Generally Hindus are more chill. Sindhi and Landha speaking Hindus arrived in India as refugees in 1947 and KPs are internally displaced they see what’s happening to the ones that are left so they know who has their back.

Pakistanis have more racialist type views I think compounded by Bangladesh independence, identity loss to their rival India, and also the fact that they are more North Western.

But it is strange considering Islam itself is very egalitarian about race / tribe / caste.

APthk
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

Noted. I will say I’m not really interested in taking this genetics discussion further as its reached the end of its lifespan. But I will contribute to any other posts if I have anything to add. Thank you for fomenting conversation as always.

Son Goku
Son Goku
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

So your “14-15%” AASI ancestry providers made a mistake wandering to Jattlands, right? I wish your folks were 100% Western Eurasian. Think how many argumentation you could avoid then.
Sometimes nature makes mistake just to break the monotony. Very sad!

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

Lol this thread is the exact type that would have once consumed me. Now, after a nice healthy dose of taking care of a bunch of real Corona hell in the hospital, this shit is just funny. I just wish the trolls were more creative.

How do you not get tired of it? You know after reading the type of stuff I saw in this thread, even Indthings sounds like David Hume. You have a lot more patience than you give yourself credit for.

justanotherlurker
justanotherlurker
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

JJ bhai: Very happy to hear that you are keeping yourself from plunging into this cesspool.. However, I have to say that the first poster that came to mind when I read Apthk’s post was you..Ek post to banta hai, boss

APthk
3 years ago

Your posts are a litany of non-sequiturs and ad hominems that fall apart. I don’t see how any of your points are relevant in any way in a discussion about Jats and their genes/phenotype.

No one brought up arranged marriage or intermarriage probability to such disparate groups as the Rajputs or Patels or Reddys at any point. As I reiterated, Jats don’t care about other communities in the subcontinent. Also, personal anecdotes or “tropes” about what others think of Jats hardly have any place in this discussion. The whole point of this discussion is that Jats look very distinct from other South Asians. Such juvenile tangents won’t detract from this fact.

Also, your posts have a rather patronizing and unnecessarily condescending tone, which is indicative that you are taking this quite personally for some reason I cannot fathom. This kind of invective wont do you any favors and only serves to weaken your stance. It also doesn’t change the reality of the situation, i.e Jats are still different. All I have to say is, when the debate is lost, the loser resorts to slander.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

“As I reiterated, Jats don’t care about other communities in the subcontinent. ”

Man, even the royal family of Dholpur don’t claim such high standards. But i guess, they must be fake Jats.

We get it, American Jats are White.

APthk
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

The fact that you are comparing Royal families to laymen is telling. Royal families intermarry across caste and state lines and are all mixed.

Case in point, the family you speak of has taken Maratha wives in the past/recently. You honestly think they are a good representation of Hindu Jatt phenotypes? Then again, it is not surprising to hear generic Indians speak like this. You don’t have much experience with Jats in the flesh, so are not cognizant of the phenotype differences. Its why I advise you guys to stay out of this discussion unless you know what you are talking about. But that seems to fall on deaf ears. Oh well.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

Yeah man, i mean who am i to speak. Of course an American Jatt knows everything about Jatts, especially more than the person who has grown up alongside them in India, a place where there are infinitely more Jatts then America can ever have.

But of course they must be fake Jatts, only thing they dont know it yet, so the American Jatt who visits India from time 2 time will come and emancipate them.

BTW, on the royal linage bit, there is a portrait of Suraj Mal, the legendary fake Jatt king of Dholpur. In that he seems to pass off as George Washington.

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago

I don’t think being white passing will hold the prestige that it has for awhile. So all of this doesn’t really matter much. Enough Jats serve in the Indian army and have fought wars for more than just their own community. I am a medium brown dude and some Jats have verified by asking me, if I am one or not. This common range is not Baloch to Georgian looking. Barring a small group of exceptions, it is more Reddy to Persian looking, which is about where on the W Eurasian+geographic gradient Jats fall.

Lol Jats don’t associate with other Indians? Come on man. Maybe in some weird cliques. They don’t care about any other group? The world is becoming more and more interconnected. The individual as a unit and what they can produce is becoming more and more relevant over tribal identity. The reality is people don’t care about any tribe as much including their own now. And even if you are right, I would stop caring so much about your phenotypic identity. It just isn’t worth your time.

Also, I am confused. What exactly is your goal here? To convince us that Hindu Jats are closer to European pheno than typical Indian one? I mean do we want to get calipers out? If your point stands by that and eliminating what you consider “fake jats,” it does. So what? The genetics are the genetics and S Asian tribal identity is lineage based not phenotype based. Jats are S Asian but on one extreme and can maybe argued as a transitional groups.

You hate AASI features and bad streotypes about Indians so want to use your phenotype to escape them? I mean go ahead lol. That will happen naturally. No one is stopping you. But these matter less and less. I live in the South right now. I don’t experience any racism. You have trouble finding a Hindu Jat girl? Go to where I grew up, nyc metro area! There are enough here. They mingle in the same S Asian Greeklife and dance teams in college and date around with a predilection towards desis of all types. Heck dated one. One is my best friend and dating a Rajasthani rajput dude. I don’t see this racial segregation.

I don’t really encounter these hypersegregationist type of Jats in real life in the young generation. I think online they are a mix of trolls and people very insecure about their identity hence they cling to their tribal roots so much and constantly try to distance themselves. If your identity is so tied to your phenotype and tribal identity, I would consider rethinking things. Resting on what you perceive to be ancestral or current laurels of your community, rather than trying to focus on what makes you a stronger individual is a recipe for not reaching your potential.

Apthk
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

“I don’t think being white passing will hold the prestige that it has for awhile. So all of this doesn’t really matter much. Enough Jats serve in the Indian army and have fought wars for more than just their own community. I am a medium brown dude and some Jats have verified by asking me, if I am one or not. This common range is not Baloch to Georgian looking. Barring a small group of exceptions, it is more Reddy to Persian looking, which is about where on the W Eurasian+geographic gradient Jats fall.”

Says who? The Gujarati Patel/Generic Gujarati that looks like a Mestizo? I’ve seen your pictures online, (AKA “Redemption”, you’re quite infamous in online circles as the angst-ridden Gujarati Vania with a massive identity crisis who claims to be Jatt while not even passing as a Tarkhan — why are you even wasting your time on these forums? I thought you were a M.D with far better things to do with your precious time. Perhaps you are envious of South Asians like yours truly that don’t look like mixed people/Mexicans? Envy wont change reality my friend) Anyone can write the drivel you just wrote. Here is an example: “I’m Sudanese and medium brown yet other Coptic Egyptians ask me all the time if I’m one of them” See what I did there? Your attempts at trolling are laughable. First of all, skin color has no relevance when it comes to race, both Coptic Egyptians and Sudanese can be brown but are entirely different racial groups. It’s about facial features. Even then, its not about passing as White, but looking like who we are, which is Caucasian/West Asian. Even Razib pointed out that Jats have a distinct appearance exclusive of skin color. The darkest Jat will NEVER look like any Patel or Reddy or generic South Asian. Unless of course, they are lying about their identity, (common in the States, and becoming more common in India) and/or are mixed and have a Jatt Grandparent or parent. Besides, if Jatts weren’t so different in appearance and race, it would’ve been quite impossible to maintain endogamy in the age before genetic studies, with every South Asian claiming to be Jatt, given a chance. It’s obvious they didnt pass as one. It is impossible. Jats all pass somewhere outside of India, even if it means only as far West as SE Iran, which has a phenotypic diversity that is unimaginable. I also find it offensive that you are conflating your group identity with mine when there are no genetic or phenotypic similarities to begin with. And who are you to make proclamations about the Jatt phenotypic range when you are not one yourself, have never been to Haryana, and have never met Hindu Jatts that fit this physical description? Jatts also dont go around asking random people if they are Jatt, for obvious reasons, especially in America. Your farce falls flat on its face. You are just another confused ABCD/NRI that has no idea about the ethnic diversity of NW Biradri groups and wants to shit all over the place with your nonsensical “theories” about what NWers SHOULD look like, in keeping with your insecurities. True blue Hindu Jats DO fit within the range of Romanian/Georgian/Italian/Greek all the way to the darkest and most ethnic Baloch/SE Iranians. You’re the kind of person that would also accuse those darker SE Iranians of “looking Indian” in person because you only look at skin color and are not a discerning observer who looks at facial features and bone structure carefully. Please stay in your own lane and go care for some Corona patients.

“Lol Jats don’t associate with other Indians? Come on man. Maybe in some weird cliques. They don’t care about any other group? The world is becoming more and more interconnected. The individual as a unit and what they can produce is becoming more and more relevant over tribal identity. The reality is people don’t care about any tribe as much including their own now. And even if you are right, I would stop caring so much about your phenotypic identity. It just isn’t worth your time.”

Again, stop your preaching. No one cares about your ideologies and personal agendas. The facts don’t yield to juvenile philosophical thoughts and poetic waxing. You do not speak for the world at large, my Gujarati friend. Its also funny to hear this from you, because growing up, Gujaratis were (and still are) infamous in the Indian community, both in India and abroad, for being notoriously clannish and only hanging out with other Patels and Gujjus, practicing Garba and other dances that I have no idea about, and eating vegetarian food that I absolutely despise. Of course, this is to be expected, given in America, they are a small minority and are like Hispanic/Latino Indios or Mestizos depending on their caste/appearance. Instead of merging themselves with the Hispanic/Latino community however, they want to be separate and their own island, and frequently marry other Patels and Gujaratis only. Perhaps because they do not want to be part of a community that although looks like them, is disparaged and marginalized and looked at in a negative light owing to SES and other reasons. Of course there are always some like yourself that look for greener pastures and seek to find a bride with West Asian features and so waste their time on forums online trying to unsuccessfully convince Jats and others that they can pass as one of them. I can imagine it even, its like George Lopez telling Andy Garcia that he can pass as a “White Latino” as well, and that he knows/has dated other “White Latinos” like Jennifer Lopez in the past. Absolutely hilarious! That is what you are doing my misguided friend. You have no idea just how strict endogamy is for Hindu Jats, I’ve lived in the subcontinent and I know first-hand besides being one myself. Gujaratis have NO idea. And you are talking about individual identities trumping the group identity in an era where BLM and White supremacy is reaching a boiling point, in an age and country where race is more important than ever, and in a time where people are getting genetic tests to find out more about their ancestors and where they came from. Your observations are nothing more than nonsensical agenda peddling to satisfy your bruised ego, which seeks to cyberbully Jats into accepting that they look just like Mr. Sureshbhai Patel in the South, who was unfortunately left paralyzed while being arrested, after being mistaken for Black, while Nikki Haley was elected governor and is considered Caucasian in the same regional area, by the same people. It doesn’t change reality my insecure friend.

“Also, I am confused. What exactly is your goal here? To convince us that Hindu Jats are closer to European pheno than typical Indian one? I mean do we want to get calipers out? If your point stands by that and eliminating what you consider “fake jats,” it does. So what? The genetics are the genetics and S Asian tribal identity is lineage based not phenotype based. Jats are S Asian but on one extreme and can maybe argued as a transitional groups.”

Jats are West Asian people that live in South Asia. They have minor admixture from South Asians, but that doesn’t change their racial characteristics or phenotype. Jats have a distinct look, and the lineage-based endogamy they practice has ensured that this look is limited only to them and not other South Asian groups. And yes, we dont look anything like Indians, forget about typical Indians, whatever that means. Why do you care so much about Jats anyway? Leave us alone. Its not like we have anything to do with Patels or Gujaratis anyway. We are happy with our own identity, and you should be with yours. I don’t see any Jats wasting their time on posts about Patels/Gujaratis trying to ascertain what they look like/what their genetic heritage shows. Your unexplainable curiosity belies an envy and insecurity that I’ve mentioned earlier — you hate the fact that Jats look different from other South Asians and the fact that in America and in other countries outside of India, will not be grouped with you guys for obvious reasons. Why does this give you so much insecurity and angst? I can only surmise that it is because you want all South Asians to be tarred with the same stereotypes that people from your community suffer from, and since that is obviously not the case, you can’t sleep at night. It really is quite an immature exercise. I can even imagine you in the act: “NO! This cannot be! ALL desis look the SAME! Hindu Jats CANT look White! NOT fair! I’ll keep trolling until I win some juvenile argument and then get some sleep!” Also, people who aren’t Jats themselves only waste time on something like this if they secretly know that they are wrong but have trouble accepting the truth. You have thousands of posts on race forums where you lampooned Jats and Khatris and other biradris, and when you got banned from that pathetic website, you showed up here to vent your angst and frustration at looking different from Jats and other biradris. I mean its positively absurd that a non-Jatt is trying to teach me what my own people look like, as if I don’t know any better. Absolutely amazing. Really funny guy, may you entertain yourself with further tomfoolery and drama when you get time off from residency my Gujju bhai, it means nothing to me.

“You hate AASI features and bad streotypes about Indians so want to use your phenotype to escape them? I mean go ahead lol. That will happen naturally. No one is stopping you. But these matter less and less. I live in the South right now. I don’t experience any racism. You have trouble finding a Hindu Jat girl? Go to where I grew up, nyc metro area! There are enough here. They mingle in the same S Asian Greeklife and dance teams in college and date around with a predilection towards desis of all types. Heck dated one. One is my best friend and dating a Rajasthani rajput dude. I don’t see this racial segregation.”

Blah blah blah, the same drivel repeated over and over again. You might not face any racism in the South, but Suresh Patel and many others like him have, to appalling consequences. I’m glad you accept that we will organically escape any negative perceptions about Indians or any discrimination they suffer from, owing to our appearances. That is really a given, owing to phenotype. What you also need to accept is that your anecdotal experiences dont mean anything to Jats and other people. Keep them to yourself. As for there being many Hindu Jats in the Tri-State area, AKA Little Gujarat/Tamil Nadu/Karnataka, Puh-lease, dont make me laugh. I’d love to see who these “Jats” are, I can tell you the chances of them being Hindu Jatt are slim to none, not only because there are very, very few of them in America to begin with, but also because they are very endogamous and most would date/marry other Caucasians not Indians, unless they happen to fall in love with one. BTW, I never claimed to “hate AASI features” — I simply said they do not align with my personal preferences for what I find beautiful. People can’t have preferences now? And they can’t like their own ethnic group? Other South Asian women I encounter in America look like aliens to me when compared to Hindu Jatt women. Then again, maybe people can’t have preferences according to you.

“I don’t really encounter these hypersegregationist type of Jats in real life in the young generation. I think online they are a mix of trolls and people very insecure about their identity hence they cling to their tribal roots so much and constantly try to distance themselves. If your identity is so tied to your phenotype and tribal identity, I would consider rethinking things. Resting on what you perceive to be ancestral or current laurels of your community, rather than trying to focus on what makes you a stronger individual is a recipe for not reaching your potential.”

How many Hindu Jatts (who truly are who they claim to be) do you even know in real life? Probably zero. I’m sure you and your retinue of followers will come up with some magical number to prop up your strawman argument, but that won’t change the facts. Again, arguing like children on a website doesn’t alter realities in the real world. Also, I never realized that being proud of one’s ethnic identity and wanting to stay endogamous meant that one was being “hypersegregationist” and intolerant — by that logic, all Gujaratis in America and India should marry African Americans and Bihari dalits respectively to prove just how open-minded and accepting they are. They should also stop saying they are Gujarati, stop doing Garba/Raas/whatever its called, and stop hanging out in cliques with their own people, starting businesses with other Patels, building BAPS temples, eat Beef, etc. We all know that is NOT going to happen. Anyways, just like Vijay Chokalingam identified as “Black” to get into Medical School, a luxury I can’t even use if I wanted to, Jats can easily identify as “White/Caucasian” without any issues whatsoever. And Gujaratis can say they are Hispanic/Latino (you might have yourself, who knows).

Finally, there you go again giving out advice like an armchair psychiatrist. (Arent you still in residency? Are you moonlighting? Not legal my friend) No one asked you for your advice. And you are just projecting at this point — according to you, people who speak the truth and describe their ethnic group and its unique phenotype and genetic affinities are insecure about themselves, whereas people like yourself who constantly barge in uninvited into discussions about Jats and other ethnic groups they have nothing to do with are just offering their vaunted opinion. Right? Wrong. You are an envious/insecure Gujarati vania who is incensed at the prospect of Hindu Jatts not looking South Asian and passing among the larger majority here in America and elsewhere. This is why you waste your time on such discussion forums to try to gain a sense of false security and comfort about your preconceived notions in order to continue living the false narrative that you’ve created for yourself where all Jatts and all South Asians blend in with each other.

Do you waste time on sites where Assamese claim to look Persian?

NO, because you know that is an absurd claim that doesn’t pass muster; on the contrary, you know very well that due to the clinal nature of admixture in South Asia, Hindu Jatts, who are on the fringes/periphery of the cline genetically and geographically, can and do look radically different from other South Asians, including yourself.
You are just in denial, something you might have studied while preparing for the MCAT. Doctor Saab, you are misguided here — you are the one that is suffering from massive insecurities, as I’ve outlined above and you should really see a psychiatrist or a therapist to make sure this is put to rest. Writing nonsense online won’t magically make you look like a Jatt, nor is it going to make Jatts look like Reddys or Patels or other non-Biradri communities. The facts are not interested in your sophistry, they only answer to the facts.

The truth is, Hindu Jatts are distinct from >99% of Indian Americans, and around ~97-98% of South Asians in the subcontinent, both genetically and phenotypically.

I posted these pictures before, doing so again just to belabor the point: these are some of my family members, like I said, they dont pass as anyone except Hindu/Sikh Jatt or Khatri/Arora.

Link: https://imgur.com/a/ijIEI3x

Then again, they must be “exceptions” according to you, Haha.

In conclusion, none of your philosophizing and personal anecdotes mean anything, the facts don’t change whatsoever. I presume you will continue to deny this however, and expect more walls of juvenile BS from you and your fanbase in the future. Happy writing, I’m not even going to bother reading/responding to any of it.

Good day. Jai Shree Krishna.

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  Apthk

lmfao. This is amazing. Ain’t nobody got time to read all that funny business. I also now know who you are. This is fantastic. I also never claimed to be Jatt lmfao. I admit just as readily that Reddys and Bengalis mistake me as one of their own too. I look Pan Brown.

I consider myself more of an “online Jatt whisperer.” I tame and expose confused people like you.

Identity crisis? You know why people know I am a Guju Jain Vania right and where I cluster? Because in genetics discussions related to ancestry tests or just goofing off on who passes where threads, I never hide my identity. Lol I would like to see these online circles where I am known.

APthk
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

“I don’t think being white passing will hold the prestige that it has for awhile. So all of this doesn’t really matter much. Enough Jats serve in the Indian army and have fought wars for more than just their own community. I am a medium brown dude and some Jats have verified by asking me, if I am one or not. This common range is not Baloch to Georgian looking. Barring a small group of exceptions, it is more Reddy to Persian looking, which is about where on the W Eurasian+geographic gradient Jats fall.”

Says who? The Gujarati Patel/Generic Gujarati that looks like a Mestizo? I’ve seen your pictures online, (AKA “Redemption”, you’re quite infamous in online circles as the angst-ridden Gujarati Vania with a massive identity crisis who claims to be Jatt while not even passing as a Tarkhan — why are you even wasting your time on these forums? I thought you were a M.D with far better things to do with your precious time. Perhaps you are envious of South Asians like yours truly that don’t look like mixed people/Mexicans? Envy wont change reality my friend) Anyone can write the drivel you just wrote. Here is an example: “I’m Sudanese and medium brown yet other Coptic Egyptians ask me all the time if I’m one of them” See what I did there? Your attempts at trolling are laughable. First of all, skin color has no relevance when it comes to race, both Coptic Egyptians and Sudanese can be brown but are entirely different racial groups. Even Razib pointed out that Jats have a distinct appearance exclusive of skin color. The darkest Jat will NEVER look like any Patel or Reddy or generic South Asian. Unless of course, they are lying about their identity, (common in the States, and becoming more common in India) and/or are mixed and have a Jatt Grandparent or parent. Besides, if Jatts weren’t so different in appearance and race, it would’ve been quite impossible to maintain endogamy in the age before genetic studies, with every South Asian claiming to be Jatt, given a chance. It’s obvious they didnt pass as one. It is impossible. Jats all pass somewhere outside of India, even if it means only as far West as SE Iran, which has a phenotypic diversity that is unimaginable. I also find it offensive that you are conflating your group identity with mine when there are no genetic or phenotypic similarities to begin with. And who are you to make proclamations about the Jatt phenotypic range when you are not one yourself, have never been to Haryana, and have never met Hindu Jatts that fit this physical description? Jatts also dont go around asking random people if they are Jatt, for obvious reasons, especially in America. Your farce falls flat on its face. You are just another confused ABCD/NRI that has no idea about the ethnic diversity of NW Biradri groups and wants to shit all over the place with your nonsensical “theories” about what NWers SHOULD look like, in keeping with your insecurities. True blue Hindu Jats DO fit within the range of Romanian/Georgian/Italian/Greek all the way to the darkest and most ethnic Baloch/SE Iranians. You’re the kind of person that would also accuse those darker SE Iranians of “looking Indian” in person because you only look at skin color and are not a discerning observer who looks at facial features and bone structure carefully. Please stay in your own lane and go care for some Corona patients.

“Lol Jats don’t associate with other Indians? Come on man. Maybe in some weird cliques. They don’t care about any other group? The world is becoming more and more interconnected. The individual as a unit and what they can produce is becoming more and more relevant over tribal identity. The reality is people don’t care about any tribe as much including their own now. And even if you are right, I would stop caring so much about your phenotypic identity. It just isn’t worth your time.”

Again, stop your preaching. No one cares about your ideologies and personal agendas. The facts don’t yield to juvenile philosophical thoughts and poetic waxing. You do not speak for the world at large, my Gujarati friend. Its also funny to hear this from you, because growing up, Gujaratis were (and still are) infamous in the Indian community, both in India and abroad, for being notoriously clannish and only hanging out with other Patels and Gujjus, practicing Garba and other dances that I have no idea about, and eating vegetarian food that I absolutely despise. Of course, this is to be expected, given in America, they are a small minority and are like Hispanic/Latino Indios or Mestizos depending on their caste/appearance. Instead of merging themselves with the Hispanic/Latino community however, they want to be separate and their own island, and frequently marry other Patels and Gujaratis only. Perhaps because they do not want to be part of a community that although looks like them, is disparaged and marginalized and looked at in a negative light owing to SES and other reasons. Of course there are always some like yourself that look for greener pastures and seek to find a bride with West Asian features and so waste their time on forums online trying to unsuccessfully convince Jats and others that they can pass as one of them. I can imagine it even, its like George Lopez telling Andy Garcia that he can pass as a “White Latino” as well, and that he knows/has dated other “White Latinos” like Jennifer Lopez in the past. Absolutely hilarious! That is what you are doing my misguided friend. You have no idea just how strict endogamy is for Hindu Jats, I’ve lived in the subcontinent and I know first-hand besides being one myself. Gujaratis have NO idea. And you are talking about individual identities trumping the group identity in an era where BLM and White supremacy is reaching a boiling point, in an age and country where race is more important than ever, and in a time where people are getting genetic tests to find out more about their ancestors and where they came from. Your observations are nothing more than nonsensical agenda peddling to satisfy your bruised ego, which seeks to cyberbully Jats into accepting that they look just like Mr. Sureshbhai Patel in the South, who was unfortunately left paralyzed while being arrested, after being mistaken for Black, while Nikki Haley was elected governor and is considered Caucasian in the same regional area, by the same people. It doesn’t change reality my insecure friend.

“Also, I am confused. What exactly is your goal here? To convince us that Hindu Jats are closer to European pheno than typical Indian one? I mean do we want to get calipers out? If your point stands by that and eliminating what you consider “fake jats,” it does. So what? The genetics are the genetics and S Asian tribal identity is lineage based not phenotype based. Jats are S Asian but on one extreme and can maybe argued as a transitional groups.”

Jats are West Asian people that live in South Asia. They have minor admixture from South Asians, but that doesn’t change their racial characteristics or phenotype. Jats have a distinct look, and the lineage-based endogamy they practice has ensured that this look is limited only to them and not other South Asian groups. And yes, we dont look anything like Indians, forget about typical Indians, whatever that means. Why do you care so much about Jats anyway? Leave us alone. Its not like we have anything to do with Patels or Gujaratis anyway. We are happy with our own identity, and you should be with yours. I don’t see any Jats wasting their time on posts about Patels/Gujaratis trying to ascertain what they look like/what their genetic heritage shows. Your unexplainable curiosity belies an envy and insecurity that I’ve mentioned earlier — you hate the fact that Jats look different from other South Asians and the fact that in America and in other countries outside of India, will not be grouped with you guys for obvious reasons. Why does this give you so much insecurity and angst? I can only surmise that it is because you want all South Asians to be tarred with the same stereotypes that people from your community suffer from, and since that is obviously not the case, you can’t sleep at night. It really is quite an immature exercise. I can even imagine you in the act: “NO! This cannot be! ALL desis look the SAME! Hindu Jats CANT look White! NOT fair! I’ll keep trolling until I win some juvenile argument and then get some sleep!” Also, people who aren’t Jats themselves only waste time on something like this if they secretly know that they are wrong but have trouble accepting the truth. You have thousands of posts on race forums where you lampooned Jats and Khatris and other biradris, and when you got banned from that pathetic website, you showed up here to vent your angst and frustration at looking different from Jats and other biradris. I mean its positively absurd that a non-Jatt is trying to teach me what my own people look like, as if I don’t know any better. Absolutely amazing. Really funny guy, may you entertain yourself with further tomfoolery and drama when you get time off from residency my Gujju bhai, it means nothing to me.

“You hate AASI features and bad streotypes about Indians so want to use your phenotype to escape them? I mean go ahead lol. That will happen naturally. No one is stopping you. But these matter less and less. I live in the South right now. I don’t experience any racism. You have trouble finding a Hindu Jat girl? Go to where I grew up, nyc metro area! There are enough here. They mingle in the same S Asian Greeklife and dance teams in college and date around with a predilection towards desis of all types. Heck dated one. One is my best friend and dating a Rajasthani rajput dude. I don’t see this racial segregation.”

Blah blah blah, the same drivel repeated over and over again. You might not face any racism in the South, but Suresh Patel and many others like him have, to appalling consequences. I’m glad you accept that we will organically escape any negative perceptions about Indians or any discrimination they suffer from, owing to our appearances. That is really a given, owing to phenotype. What you also need to accept is that your anecdotal experiences dont mean anything to Jats and other people. Keep them to yourself. As for there being many Hindu Jats in the Tri-State area, AKA Little Gujarat/Tamil Nadu/Karnataka, Puh-lease, dont make me laugh. I’d love to see who these “Jats” are, I can tell you the chances of them being Hindu Jatt are slim to none, not only because there are very, very few of them in America to begin with, but also because they are very endogamous and most would date/marry other Caucasians not Indians, unless they happen to fall in love with one. BTW, I never claimed to “hate AASI features” — I simply said they do not align with my personal preferences for what I find beautiful. People can’t have preferences now? And they can’t like their own ethnic group? Other South Asian women I encounter in America look like aliens to me when compared to Hindu Jatt women. Then again, maybe people can’t have preferences according to you.

“I don’t really encounter these hypersegregationist type of Jats in real life in the young generation. I think online they are a mix of trolls and people very insecure about their identity hence they cling to their tribal roots so much and constantly try to distance themselves. If your identity is so tied to your phenotype and tribal identity, I would consider rethinking things. Resting on what you perceive to be ancestral or current laurels of your community, rather than trying to focus on what makes you a stronger individual is a recipe for not reaching your potential.”

How many Hindu Jatts (who truly are who they claim to be) do you even know in real life? Probably zero. I’m sure you and your retinue of followers will come up with some magical number to prop up your strawman argument, but that won’t change the facts. Again, arguing like children on a website doesn’t alter realities in the real world. Also, I never realized that being proud of one’s ethnic identity and wanting to stay endogamous meant that one was being “hypersegregationist” and intolerant — by that logic, all Gujaratis in America and India should marry African Americans and Bihari dalits respectively to prove just how open-minded and accepting they are. They should also stop saying they are Gujarati, stop doing Garba/Raas/whatever its called, and stop hanging out in cliques with their own people, starting businesses with other Patels, building BAPS temples, eat Beef, etc. We all know that is NOT going to happen. Anyways, just like Vijay Chokalingam identified as “Black” to get into Medical School, a luxury I can’t even use if I wanted to, Jats can easily identify as “White/Caucasian” without any issues whatsoever. And Gujaratis can say they are Hispanic/Latino (you might have yourself, who knows).

Finally, there you go again giving out advice like an armchair psychiatrist. (Arent you still in residency? Are you moonlighting? Not legal my friend) No one asked you for your advice. And you are just projecting at this point — according to you, people who speak the truth and describe their ethnic group and its unique phenotype and genetic affinities are insecure about themselves, whereas people like yourself who constantly barge in uninvited into discussions about Jats and other ethnic groups they have nothing to do with are just offering their vaunted opinion. Right? Wrong. You are an envious/insecure Gujarati vania who is incensed at the prospect of Hindu Jatts not looking South Asian and passing among the larger majority here in America and elsewhere. This is why you waste your time on such discussion forums to try to gain a sense of false security and comfort about your preconceived notions in order to continue living the false narrative that you’ve created for yourself where all Jatts and all South Asians blend in with each other.

Do you waste time on sites where Assamese claim to look Persian? NO, because you know that is an absurd claim that doesn’t pass muster; on the contrary, you know very well that due to the clinal nature of admixture in South Asia, Hindu Jatts, who are on the fringes/periphery of the cline genetically and geographically, can and do look radically different from other South Asians, including yourself.

You are just in denial, something you might have studied while preparing for the MCAT. Doctor Saab, you are misguided here — you are the one that is suffering from massive insecurities, as I’ve outlined above and you should really see a psychiatrist or a therapist to make sure this is put to rest. Writing nonsense online won’t magically make you look like a Jatt, nor is it going to make Jatts look like Reddys or Patels or other non-Biradri communities. The facts are not interested in your sophistry, they only answer to the facts.

The truth is, Hindu Jatts are distinct from >99% of Indian Americans, and around ~97-98% of South Asians in the subcontinent, both genetically and phenotypically. I posted these pictures before, doing so again just to belabor the point: these are some of my family members, like I said, they dont pass as anyone except Hindu/Sikh Jatt or Khatri/Arora.

Link: https://imgur.com/a/ijIEI3x

Then again, they must be “exceptions” according to you, Haha.

In conclusion, none of your philosophizing and personal anecdotes mean anything, the facts don’t change whatsoever. I presume you will continue to deny this however, and expect more walls of juvenile BS from you and your fanbase in the future. Happy writing, I’m not even going to bother reading/responding to any of it. Good day. Jai Shree Krishna.

Siddharth
Siddharth
3 years ago

I’m not into genetics much, but I think the perceived impact of genetic differences is overestimated on the ground. Some people go as far as thinking of the caste system as an Indian attempt at Eugenics, which is laughable. It’s more accurately a vehicle for preserving culture, dialect and folk practices that’s now well past it’s sell-by date.

I get the sense that American Desis (ABCD’s ?) extrapolate their view of a race-divided society where everyone can be categorized into boxes to India, where this falls flat.

It’s unarguable that *on average* Tamils and Mallus look different from Punjabis or Bengalis, but there’s a non-trivial fraction of people in all these groups that just aren’t easy to categorise by phenotype even for Indians who live in the country. For Indians this is saying the obvious, but some in the diaspora with ‘non-standard’ looks when compared to a crude Western stereotype of what an Indian should look like go as far as saying that they will stick out in the home country. Indians are used to a range of looks across a range of geographies, and this has only a superficial impact on most people’s lives except those in showbiz. And the pride with being mistaken for non-Indian or non- is baffling to me!

girmit
girmit
3 years ago
Reply to  Siddharth

Maybe things have changed, but I remember the south asian party scene in the US as having quite the representation of sindhis and punjabis. The idea of a haryanvi jatt feeling alienated in that milieu rings false.

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  girmit

I find this whole fascination with passing for White (and the larger BP obsession with discussing phenotypes) quite bizarre. This topic of which South Asian group is “fairer” then the others comes up again and again on this forum. Frankly, it’s quite pathetic.

I think the only time I wanted to pass for White in the US was when I was seven years old. I got over it. It seems a lot of people haven’t.

APthk
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

You clearly have reading comprehension issues. I never stated I reveled in passing for White — I simply stated that Jats have a distinct identity which makes them very different from other South Asians. I have reiterated time and time again that Jats cannot all pass West of Southern Iran, and that some have ethnic appearances. But in all cases, they look unique, do not overlap with other South Asians, and are considered generic Caucasians by others in the US. This is to be expected given their genetic heritage and ancestry. Its the equivalent of criticizing NE Indians for claiming to look East or South East Asian when their genes and phenotype are truly distinct from other South Asians. They’ll continue to look E/SE Asian, just like Jats will look Iranic/Slavic.

I dont find any utility in allying myself to South Asians, particularly when no such monolithic identity exists. It is a futile exercise. On the contrary, I find it hilarious that other Indians want to force us to accept that Jats are part of some mythical “Brown” race that extends from Kanyakumari to Kabul. It says more about them than it does about the Jats. Phenotypes differ in the Jat community, sure. But they also differ among all communities. This diversity is not an excuse to say that no differences exist among Hindu Jats vs. other groups in the subcontinent. Again, if that was the case, every single Jat would be mixed by now.

Vikram
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

“Jats have a distinct identity”

Are you saying that Jat identity consists of preserving their specific genetic structure ?

Also, if this is your identity, how does it make sense to call someone a ‘Hindu Jat’ ?

Sumit
Sumit
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

Assuming an American context because Indians never use the words like “brown race” to describe themselves lol

Indians / south Asians aren’t the ones forcing you to accept this it is broader American society.

There has a television engineer (who looked like an average Telugu engineer) who was shot to death at a bar in the US for being a “Persian” Muslim. Not to mention Sikhs being shot up for the same reason after 9/11.

There can also be positive things, people assume all Indians including light brown Jats are good at software.

passing as white confers social benefits in broader society, this is why ppl are care about it. They don’t realize not only will they not pass but make themselves look foolish in the process. Better to own up to being brown.

Come to think of it even if you pass still better to claim brown as you get more woke points in the current meta game, while minimizing any negative impacts.

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

It’s not just you. This phenotype discussion is a BP obsession. I find all of it rather pathetic.

I’m Pakistani-American. Raised almost entirely in the US. Never once (asides from age 7) have I pretended to be anything other than what I am. Fine, I may have let people think I was Indian because I didn’t want to get into some ignorant discussion about the Taliban or something. But even in the most Islamophobic post 9/11 environment, I’ve been fully comfortable with who I am.

You’re entitled to ally with whoever you want. No one is forcing you to identify as “South Asian” (at least they shouldn’t). I just find the whole fascination with small physical differences bizarre. Also, “passing” for White is a very troublesome thing given the American history with race.

I’m not really interested in discussin this further. So feel free to have the last word.

DaThang
DaThang
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

Of course Jats have a distinct identity, most south Asian groups in general tend to have distinct identities. It’s not like as if south Asians see themselves as one big group of common brown people, the centuries, or even millennia of endogamy has produced strong group identities, like a nation of Baltic-like subunits in terms of bottlenecks. But this doesn’t mean that Jats are somehow more like Georgians and even Persians than like the north Indian general castes.

APthk
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

Yes my friend, despite being genetically different from generic North Indian castes, Jatts look exactly like them and are no different from even Guptas and Vanias and Patels. In fact, Nikki Haley and Mindy Kaling and Narendra Modi and Rajnath Singh could all be a part of the same Nuclear family, they look like biological siblings to any observer!

/End satire. You guys are incorrigible. Give it up before its too late, you already look like fools saying such absurd things. Jatts were never, and are nothing like generic North Indians or any other generic South Asian castes. They also look nothing alike facially and physically. Skin color discussions are meaningless — East Asians and Latinos/Hispanics can be lighter than many Middle Easterners and even Europeans — it doesnt mean squat.

I’m done addressing what is a self-evident point. Anyone with eyes and a brain can see the facts . Good day.

DaThang
DaThang
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

>Jatts look exactly like them and are no different from even Guptas and Vanias and Patels. In fact, Nikki Haley and Mindy Kaling and Narendra Modi and Rajnath Singh could all be a part of the same Nuclear family, they look like biological siblings to any observer!

Opposite of what I said. Losing your mind already? I don’t want to interfere in your other discussions because, frankly, I’ve have often heated arguments with them in the past and it won’t get anything substantial this time around either.

>End satire. You guys are incorrigible. Give it up before its too late, you already look like fools saying such absurd things. Jatts were never, and are nothing like generic North Indians or any other generic South Asian castes. They also look nothing alike facially and physically. Skin color discussions are meaningless — East Asians and Latinos/Hispanics can be lighter than many Middle Easterners and even Europeans — it doesnt mean squat.

>I’m done addressing what is a self-evident point. Anyone with eyes and a brain can see the facts . Good day.

One of the problems with you is your reluctance to look beyond what is immediately understandable- the self evident as you say. Jats- not even the Punjabi or Rajasthani Jats but the Haryana Jats and Rors are closer to northern Indian ‘Bhaiyya’ Brahmins than to Georgians or even Iranians from Fars. Saying that is not the same as saying that Jats are the same as generic north Indian castes, of course not! About equidistant to both Balochis/Tajik and north Indian Brahmins. Closer to Pashtuns than to Brahmins however, so you definitely got that right.

I think you are actually right for distinguishing one group from another, but then you take one step back and want to identify with a different group. Do neither and see the groups as being distinct- as they are. Jats are not generic south Asians (who themselves are distinct from one another), and Jats are also not Balochis or central Asians or Slavs either, Jats are Jats.

I will end this with a bit of an advice- leaving this south Asian comparison (not saying that it is one big brown population, have already stated that before) and wanting to be a part of a different group will put you at the bottom of the hierarchy of any other group that you want to be a part of. Western Iranians shit on eastern Iranians for looking like Indians, central Asians like Tajiks shit on Pashtuns for looking more Indian than they do themselves (not to say that Tajiks are a world apart, a single/small group of selected Tajik/s vs a crowd a Tajiks makes a difference!- some Sicilians online like to point this out in order to bridge the gap between themselves and other southern Europeans at the expense of a third party, but this rarely works out either) and then there are the Russians who shit on Tajiks and churkas partly for looking more middle easterners than Russians do. Basically- this kind of toxic ‘I want to be that big catchall group, not this one’ is toxic as.

APthk
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

I’m glad we can finally agree on what is self-evident. I completely disagree with you on one point though: that passing as another group puts you at the “bottom” of said group. First of all, why are Jats even passing as ANY group that is not South Asian in the first place? They should all look different from any West Asian or European according to some trolls. Of course, we all know that is not the case. Secondly, even if certain trolls online like shitting on other groups for looking different, it doesn’t change the fact that they are only hating their own people, i.e their own racial group. That won’t change, doesn’t matter if there are facial differences, they must accept the facts, which is that they are all Caucasian. They can’t deny this, whether they like it or not. Therefore, I could care less what other people think according to your experiences and anecdotes as long as I am a Caucasian/West Asian that passes ANYWHERE outside of India, for that makes me part of the larger West Asian/European/Caucasian world and distinct from the South Asian/mixed Latino World.

Also, Russians and Tajiks and many others have welcomed my family and I with open arms, in contrast to other South Asians who if they recognize us, dont even talk to us/treat us indifferently. Also, who says that people have an unofficial hierarchy in their minds where they treat those who look a little different from them ethnically, but not racially, with disrespect? No ONE. You are making up these experiences based on your time spent trolling on pathetic websites like Anthroscape and the Apricity that have no regard for the facts or the scientific truth and generalizing it for all South Asians in the real world. Keep your subjective opinions to yourself, and leave Jats alone please. They get plenty of respect from everyone, even those that look like Bill Clinton, despite not always looking Slavic or Western Iranic — even the darkest most ethnic looking SE Iranic Jatt gets respect from these people.

DaThang
DaThang
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

>First of all, why are Jats even passing as ANY group that is not South Asian in the first place?

Because Jats are a mix of steppe and ivc with a distinct combination.

>First of all, why are Jats even passing as ANY group that is not South Asian in the first place? They should all look different from any West Asian or European according to some trolls. Of course, we all know that is not the case. Secondly, even if certain trolls online like shitting on other groups for looking different, it doesn’t change the fact that they are only hating their own people, i.e their own racial group.

Wanting themselves to be distinct from other, just like some few Jats and those loosely associated with Jats want to be distinct from south Asians. There is a smaller difference between a Jat and a UP Brahmin than the difference between a Russian and Tajik or a Chechen. The only people who are concerned about these racial differences are the ones who will put you on the receiving end of your own axioms.

>That won’t change, doesn’t matter if there are facial differences, they must accept the facts, which is that they are all Caucasian.

Ah yes a Caucasian Russian is supposed to be closer to a Jat than some bhaiyya brahmin is. As a matter of fact, Russians are more distant to Jats than even Velamas are. And Tajiks are about as distant as northern general castes are. Trying to obfuscate relations by covering up genetic distances using tenuous old race definitions won’t get you far.

>Also, Russians and Tajiks and many others have welcomed my family and I with open arms, in contrast to other South Asians who if they recognize us, dont even talk to us/treat us indifferently. Also, who says that people have an unofficial hierarchy in their minds where they treat those who look a little different from them ethnically, but not racially, with disrespect?

The ones who welcome you tend to not be the ones who are concerned with racial classifications. This is a general rule. I have had good experiences with people in real life but I have seen just endless cringe by Indians thinking that they are white online even in the accepting places.

>You are making up these experiences based on your time spent trolling on pathetic websites like Anthroscape and the Apricity that have no regard for the facts or the scientific truth and generalizing it for all South Asians in the real world.

Wrong on both accounts, you are projecting your own past onto me. I haven’t bothered interacting with that crowd, found out about them indirectly and in some cases even after I started posting here.

>They get plenty of respect from everyone, even those that look like Bill Clinton, despite not always looking Slavic or Western Iranic — even the darkest most ethnic looking SE Iranic Jatt gets respect from these people.

The respect from real world people, not concerned about racial differences is the respect to the person. Romas for instance are more similar to Europeans than Jats and Rors are and they get no acceptance by either the open or the racialist types. The former because they look at the person, and the Roma have a bad reputation to them even on a personal level and the latter because they are distinct enough to apply their bigotted axioms to.

Apthk
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

More of the same BS. This time, with a twist. What really tickles me is that you consider yourself to know more than credentialed researchers who actually have access to the original data, have conducted the research themselves and published it in a journal like Cell. Sure, I’m sure you are more qualified/knowledgable than all of these “quacks” that are dumb enough to get to where they are today and publish their research in a low-brow journal like Cell. /End Sarcasm. Keep the laughs coming my friend, you seem to know more than anyone else here (in your fantasy world).

You also seem to be rather fond of irrelevant and poorly-conducted studies that are not germane to the conversation at hand. Plus you make blanket statements as if they were fact without any evidence for the same. Why don’t you link to me to a peer-reviewed study that shows how much people like Russians and others further West of the Indus “hate” and “shit upon” NW South Asians like the Jats who are West Asians/Caucasian racially, with an assortment of faces that pass anywhere from Baluchestan to Bulgaria. I’d love to see some more irrelevant studies. Then again, I’m not exactly interested in wasting my time reading through more contrived nonsense.

I’m not one to make blanket assumptions like you, but from your syntax and rhetoric I’m assuming you are from India, and not a NRI/someone born/living abroad. I’ve heard such illusory and delusional theories from your kind before, who have never stepped foot outside of their village/state in India and blindly believe everything they read online. I have actually lived in both America/India for various periods of time, and am intimately familiar with both Jats and European Americans, West Asians and others. My experiences with these people both in my formative years and now as an adult are dimetrically opposed to your “theories” and “warnings” that frankly, sound like the ravings of a lunatic or an immature, sheltered and naive youngster with too much anxiety. insecurity and idle time on his hands. All of what you wrote is utter BS without any sources to back it up. Anyone can do the same, it doesn’t mean anything. What credentials do you have in this discpline apart from amateur sleuthing and playing around with the numbers?

You also like to talk about how a certain population is closer to one vs. the other based on DSTATS and genetic distance. Its pretty obvious that UP Brahmins are going to be relatively closer to Jats than Jats are to Iranians, just like Parsis are closer to Jats than they are to Iranians, but that is a a given owing to geographic proximity/historical diffusion of genes/the fact that all of these groups share some amount of DNA with each other, including different levels of AASI. Genetic drift, genetic isolation, inbreeding and other factors further increase this distance. Nothing really surprising nor informative. Does this mean that Parsis and Jats are like other South Asians and alien to West Asians? Absolutely not.

What is surprising and relevant however, is that Jats and certain other communities have a certain % of West Eurasian DNA that makes them look Caucasian, and that this level/amount is the highest compared to other communities in South Asia. This phenotype is also why they are distinct from UP Brahmins and all other Indians, and much closer to people like Iranians, Slavics, West Asians and other Middle Eastern groups who look just like them. This is what you don’t seem to understand. When it comes to racial/social classification I don’t care what some preliminary genetic test shows, no one does when it comes to personal interactions in real life — they judge you by looking at your phenotype, and only Jats look Caucasian, and thus have more in common with groups further West of the Indus than others like UP Brahmins and middle/lower caste groups in India who might be relatively closer on PCA plots. Life =/= PCA plots. Life = phenotype and how you are perceived ethnically and racially and your racial characteristics/phenotype.

DaThang
DaThang
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

>More of the same BS. This time, with a twist. What really tickles me is that you consider yourself to know more than credentialed researchers who actually have access to the original data, have conducted the research themselves and published it in a journal like Cell. Sure, I’m sure you are more qualified/knowledgable than all of these “quacks” that are dumb enough to get to where they are today and publish their research in a low-brow journal like Cell.

Keep dreaming up things that I’ve never said. Makes you look more lucid by the post.

>You also seem to be rather fond of irrelevant and poorly-conducted studies that are not germane to the conversation at hand. Plus you make blanket statements as if they were fact without any evidence for the same. Why don’t you link to me to a peer-reviewed study that shows how much people like Russians and others further West of the Indus “hate” and “shit upon” NW South Asians like the Jats who are West Asians/Caucasian racially, with an assortment of faces that pass anywhere from Baluchestan to Bulgaria.

Once again you display your low IQ by not being able to read words. I didn’t make a direct link between Russians and Jats interacting. It was Russians looking down on Caucasians and central Asians, passing as those is not a good idea to gain the approval of people who care about race. the good experiences come from those who look at the person as opposed to the group, tell me how your last interactions with Russian neonazis went if you have something to the contrary. And you won’t find studies about how a group perceives another outside of countries where the problems have been sorted out to the point where research in racism becomes a point of focus. And as far as research is concerned- I respect the researchers which is why I use and cite their data, I don’t claim to come up with my own original data but I did point out how midwits weren’t able to understand the information put out by researchers. It isn’t the scientist’s or the publisher’s fault that you are stupid.

>I’m not one to make blanket assumptions like you, but from your syntax and rhetoric I’m assuming you are from India, and not a NRI/someone born/living abroad.

Wrong again, low IQ on display for the nth time. Ironic since you call me a rhetorician since my claims have been based on data so far, you on the other hand have no only contradicted the very source you claim to use, but have done nothing but smeared verbal diarrhea since your arrival here. You have no data or ability to think about data in any proper capacity.

> I have actually lived in both America/India for various periods of time, and am intimately familiar with both Jats and European Americans, West Asians and others. My experiences with these people both in my formative years and now as an adult are dimetrically opposed to your “theories” and “warnings” that frankly, sound like the ravings of a lunatic or an immature, sheltered and naive youngster with too much anxiety. insecurity and idle time on his hands.

Quite the contrary, I’ve had the experience of interacting with many more people than you have and I can guarantee that without a sociologist’s report on my past.

>All of what you wrote is utter BS without any sources to back it up

I have listed the sources for the original claims, you on the other hand have failed to understand a simple post that Razib made. Doesn’t reflect well on you.

>What credentials do you have in this discpline apart from amateur sleuthing and playing around with the numbers?

I don’t have credentials in the field which is exactly why I am not listing out my own original research. The numbers lead you somewhere if the path leads to something substantial or else there would be no pattern to them.

>You also like to talk about how a certain population is closer to one vs. the other based on DSTATS and genetic distance. Its pretty obvious that UP Brahmins are going to be relatively closer to Jats than Jats are to Iranians, just like Parsis are closer to Jats than they are to Iranians, but that is a a given owing to geographic proximity/historical diffusion of genes/the fact that all of these groups share some amount of DNA with each other, including different levels of AASI. Genetic drift, genetic isolation, inbreeding and other factors further increase this distance. Nothing really surprising nor informative.

And yet you lacked this very common sense piece of knowledge until it was drilled into your tiny head.

>What is surprising and relevant however, is that Jats and certain other communities have a certain % of West Eurasian DNA that makes them look Caucasian

Relevant? Sure, surprising? Maybe to someone with a This phenotype is also why they are distinct from UP Brahmins and all other Indians, and much closer to people like Iranians, Slavics, West Asians and other Middle Eastern groups who look just like them.

Alright now prove this with sources, because this isn’t just something that can be thrown out, it can be measured, so show me detailed study on Jat specific craniofacial form with dozens of measurements and comparisons with middle easterners and Slavs .etc. You throw out claims without backing them up and dare call me the rhetorician with no sources here?

>When it comes to racial/social classification I don’t care what some preliminary genetic test shows, no one does when it comes to personal interactions in real life — they judge you by looking at your phenotype, and only Jats look Caucasian, and thus have more in common with groups further West of the Indus than others like UP Brahmins and middle/lower caste groups in India who might be relatively closer on PCA plots. Life =/= PCA plots. Life = phenotype and how you are perceived ethnically and racially.

There is one of the things that you repeatedly fail to understand, the people who focus on phenotype and race in real life aren’t going to see you as an ingroup. They would be more likely to see some Chechen as an ingroup racially and you can just see how the Chechen-Russian interactions go https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Russia

Lots of sources list, I’ll post extracts,

>In Russia, the word “Caucasian” is a collective term referring to anyone descended from the native ethnic groups of the Caucasus. In Russian slang, Peoples of the Caucasus are called black; this name-calling comes from their relatively darker features.[41][42] While the word black in itself is not racist, the racist synonym for it is “chernozhopy” (черножо́пый, trans. black arsed).[43] Since the dissolution of the Soviet Union, the rise of the Muslim population in Russia and the Second Chechen War, many Russian radical nationalists have associated Islam and Muslims with terrorism and domestic crimes.[44]

>On 21 April 2001, there was a pogrom in a market in Moscow’s Yasenevo District against merchants from the Caucasus.[45] Ethnically motivated attacks against Armenians in Russia have grown so common that the president of Armenia, Robert Kocharyan, raised the issue with high-ranking Russian officials.[46] In September 2006, major ethnic tensions between Russians and Caucasians took place in Kondopoga.[47] In 2006, the crisis in Georgia–Russia relations resulted in the deportation of Georgians from Russia.[48] The Russian side explained the process as law enforcement towards illegal immigrants, whereas the Georgian government accused Russia of ethnic cleansing.[49] The European Court of Human Rights concluded that the detention and collective expulsion of Georgian nationals in 2006 violated the European Convention of Human Rights and ruled, in 2019, that Russia had to pay 10 million Euros in compensation.[50]

>In December 2010, there was a massive outbreak of hostility towards Caucasians, culminating in nationalist protests at Manezhnaya Square in Moscow and in other cities.[51] The trigger was the murder of Egor Sviridov, a Russian association football fan, in a street fight on 6 December.[52] On 11 December, thousands of nationalist rioters, outside the Moscow Kremlin building, screamed racist phrases, cried for a “Russia for Russians” and a “Moscow for Muscovites,” attacked Caucasians and other minority groups who passed by, and some – including children as young as fourteen – made the Nazi salute.[53] The next day, a similar riot was held in Rostov-on-Don, and afterwards, the city’s government banned Caucasians from performing Lezginka, their traditional dance, in the city.[54] Later, the police chief in Moscow said that civil liberties were a hindrance in security and that migration should be restricted.[55] Vladimir Kvachkov, a major Russian nationalist leader of the organization People’s Liberation Front of Russia (which says its major goal is to “free” Russia from Caucasian and Hebrew “occupiers”), made the following statement: “We Russian nationalists, the initiators of the people’s front, we are telling you that the events of 11 December are the beginning of the revolutionary changes in Russia, the first outbursts of the approaching Russian revolution… You are the ones who can participate in it.”[53]

Sure a part of it flamed by religious differences but there is very obvious ethnic strife going on. It is only going to be worse than this for any south Asian group being thrown in the race game. “Black arsed” yeah definitely because they are Muslims and not because they are darker people seen as an outgroup by a population not selected to be as socially open and accepting as western Europeans are. Now don’t force me to look through tons of blogs for the proof of the previous sentence, it is well known in the HBD community. I have spoonfed you enough and have received enough bullshit in return to go any further with searching for more sources only to be given a pea brained personal opinion response from you.

DaThang
DaThang
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

I didn’t have access to all of the saved resources yesterday so I could only mention the Haryana (non caste specific) paper and the Jat Sikh vs Bania paper. Now I have also managed to find records of English and Anglo Saxon crania as well. I don’t have the female values for the female Anglo Saxon crania, but I do have values for English female crania.

Firstly, there is a group of dry skull English crania in “A study of variation and correlation in human crania with a special reference to English crania” by W. R. MacDonell. It lists the English female dry skull max length as 180.36 mm, and the English female dry skull max width as 134.68 mm. Now the Jat Sikh and Bania skulls were not dry skulls so we need to add some value for living tissue, the standard value suggested by Alice Lee and then used by Karl Pearson is 11 mm, though this has varied from group to group. In “Sexual differences in the skull” by F.G. Parsons and Lucas Keene,the tissue value was stated to be 8 mm (they also reference slightly different values from other sources) but we will go with 8 mm for this. 180.36 + 134.68 + 8 + 8 = 331.04 mm. That is an anticipated L + B values for English females. The Jat Sikh female L + B value comes out as 319.7 mm and the Bania female L + B value comes out as 316.7. The nominal difference (overall) between Jat Sikh and English was 11.34 mm, and the difference between Jat Sikh and Bania was 3 mm. This was from the first paper. The second paper had it’s own different living English groups, of which, the London patients (female, 327.1 mm) had the most similar value to the Jat Sikh L+B measurement, but even then the difference is 7.4 mm as opposed to the 3 mm difference between Jat Sikh and Bania females.

So sure, Jats are distinct in appearance and even in cranial measurements, but Jats are still ultimately more similar to other north Indian (general castes) than to European whites.

Ancient comparisons can be found on plate 14 here:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=wMw1AAAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA14&lpg=RA1-PA14&dq=karasuk+cranial+measurement&source=bl&ots=9y5-ljXGWL&sig=ACfU3U26bepDNPstlrsqFG-7hWG0Y3joIw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiXksCjm9LoAhXPV98KHZRBAoYQ6AEwFnoECA0QKA#v=onepage&q=karasuk%20cranial%20measurement&f=false

APthk
3 years ago

What I have observed is the following:

America has a tendency to classify people based on race/the way they look. It is also pretty unforgiving to people that are even a little ethnic/swarthy/have off-white Features and slots them into an ambiguous/Latino box. No one cares even a little bit about your caste or your ethnic background.

India has a tendency to classify people based on caste/subcaste/who they claim to be. Sanskritization means that many Indians who are not of a particular endogamous community claim to be “Upper Caste” or even part of a biradri group in order to gain social status/find brides of their choosing.

This makes for some interesting experiences once you leave India, because those that don’t pass as some sort of Caucasian (European or Middle Eastern) or even East Asian or Latino become an isolate of their own, and are considered nothing but “Indian” — like Aziz Ansari, Mindy Kaling, Asha Rangappa, the Tamil Miss America, and others. I haven’t seen this look outside of South Asia in general.

On the other hand, plenty of Indians pass as non-White Latinos or Hispanics, particularly in the North, the West and the East. This includes most Patels, who are Mexicans that speak Hindi, at least to my eyes. Furthermore, there is a significant minority that can pass as East or South East Asian, and even a small group that can be mistaken for African American (at least to the uninformed, In Alabama, an old White woman called the cops on Sureshbhai Patel because she believed he was a “suspicious Black guy” looking into people’s homes. When the police officer arrived, he slammed him to the ground in the process of arresting him and he was left paralyzed. Very unfortunate ).

The smallest group is that of NW Indians who can pass as MENA or European groups. This is a double-edged sword, because many can be mistaken for some other MENA ethnicity, making for some interesting situations. Though most can easily pass as some generic European or Caucasus ethnicity. These groups have an easier time fitting in, as America is majority “Caucasian” racially. Nikki Haley is considered Caucasian in the South, and was even elected Governor. This is the same place where Mr. Patel was unfairly treated.

So America essentially judges you based on the way you look, which is more or less a reflection of your race.

Razib even alluded to this, narrating his experiences with Kashmiri Pandits for example; I happen to know two types of Kauls: ones that look like some rare Patels, and ones that look Caucasian. (Patels themselves have a larger range of appearances, from Tamil-looking to Mestizo looking to Amisha and Priti Patel, who both look Latino/hispanic. But they can never look like NW Indian Jats/Caucasians, however.)

As Razib points out, there are plenty of Pandits/other NW groups that pass as White or some sort of Caucasian. Among Jats, there are a significant minority of faces that look very ethnic and only pass among SE Iranians (still Caucasian), but a good majority pass much further West of Iran even. None look like generic South Asians. So its all about your phenotype. Being American, I don’t identify as an Indian, particularly among the diaspora population. I just don’t feel kinship with most Indians I see here. Most White Americans here see me as a generic Caucasian, so it never really crosses my mind that I’m technically part of an ethnic minority like the (not a racial minority), Hindu Jats. Some of my family members: https://imgur.com/a/ijIEI3x

APthk
3 years ago

America has a tendency to classify people based on race/the way they look. It is also pretty unforgiving to people that are even a little ethnic/swarthy/have off-white Features and slots them into an ambiguous/Latino box. No one cares even a little bit about your caste or your ethnic background.

India has a tendency to classify people based on caste/subcaste/who they claim to be. Sanskritization means that many Indians who are not of a particular endogamous community claim to be “Upper Caste” or even part of a biradri group in order to gain social status/find brides of their choosing.

This makes for some interesting experiences once you leave India, because those that don’t pass as some sort of Caucasian (European or Middle Eastern) or even East Asian or Latino become an isolate of their own, and are considered nothing but “Indian” — like Aziz Ansari, Mindy Kaling, Asha Rangappa, the Tamil Miss America, and others. I haven’t seen this look outside of South Asia in general.

On the other hand, plenty of Indians pass as non-White Latinos or Hispanics, particularly in the North, the West and the East. This includes most Patels, who are Mexicans that speak Hindi, at least to my eyes. Furthermore, there is a significant minority that can pass as East or South East Asian, and even a small group that can be mistaken for African American (at least to the uninformed, In Alabama, an old White woman called the cops on Sureshbhai Patel because she believed he was a “suspicious Black guy” looking into people’s homes. When the police officer arrived, he slammed him to the ground in the process of arresting him and he was left paralyzed. Very unfortunate ).

The smallest group is that of Jats and other NW Indians who are considered Middle Eastern or European. These groups have an easier time fitting in, as America is majority “Caucasian” racially. Nikki Haley is considered Caucasian in the South, and was even elected Governor. This is the same place where Mr. Patel was unfairly treated. So America essentially judges you based on the way you look, which is more or less a reflection of your racial background.

Razib even alluded to this, narrating his experiences with Kashmiri Pandits for example; I happen to know two types of Kauls: ones that look like some rare Patels, and ones that look Caucasian. (Patels themselves have a larger range of appearances, from Tamil-looking to Mestizo looking to Amisha and Priti Patel, who both look Latino/hispanic. But they can never look like NW Indian Jats/Caucasians, however.)

As Razib points out, there are plenty of Pandits/other NW groups that pass as White. Among Jats, there are a significant minority of faces that look very ethnic and only pass among SE Iranians, but a good majority pass much further West of Iran even. None look like generic South Asians. So its all about your phenotype. Being American, I don’t identify as an Indian, particularly among the diaspora population. I just don’t feel kinship with most Indians I see here. Most White Americans here see me as a generic Caucasian, so it never really crosses my mind that I’m technically part of an ethnic minority (not racial minority), Hindu Jats. Some of my family members: https://imgur.com/a/ijIEI3x

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago

Kabir meets APthk. unstoppable force meets immovable object.

Janamejaya
Janamejaya
3 years ago

From the way they carry on, I always thought Jats/Jatts are aliens from another planet.

True Jats DO NOT look like any other humans on the planet. They are their own separate species although some amount of miscegenation has occurred in India.

I find it strange to see an online Jatt who is ok to attach himself with Georgians and Iranians even though not with lowly AASI Indians. Whither the Jat spirit ?? !! Georgians and Slavs!! The lowest among the whites with zero accomplishments to their name and only a history of suffering.

This APthk guy must be miscegenated lowlife himself. I will tell my Jat friends to stop his “hukka-paani”.

APthk
3 years ago
Reply to  Janamejaya

You’re correct. I’m a Steppe Shudra that looks like the vaunted Iranic and Slavic- looking Bollywood heroes Indians like you idolize and fawn over all day long. You on the other hand, are a AASI Brahmin Bhaiyya that is descended from the Pandavas themselves. What can I say? I guess I’m just a “miscegenated lowlife” that doesn’t look like the hundreds of millions of Indians that openly defecate in the open. What a pity!

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

“open defecation”– Now, you’re just trolling. Have you met INDTHINGS? You two would get along.

I’m Pakistani. I have no great love for Indians. But even I don’t troll them with this “open defecation” stuff.

APthk
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

Yup, I’m the one who’s trolling, even though these are the facts, and everyone else who is using expletives and calling Jats “uncouth” and “Sudras” and “illiterate” and “undeducated” “undesirable people” who are hated by other castes is simply being civil.

I’d expect that from a hypocritical person like you of course, probably enjoying the drama from the sidelines. Here is some information you might find interesting:

https://newrepublic.com/article/153549/indias-futile-war-open-defecation

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/open-defecation-india_b_7898834

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-27775327

Then again, I guess I’m just a Steppe Sudra Troll who does’t know any better.

INDTHINGS
INDTHINGS
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

I brought up the open defecation stuff when there was a discussion about Indian Muslims and hygiene issues, so I pointed out if there’s any community in India that has hygiene issues, its Hindus. I don’t approve of using that (or any other subject) as a slur.

APthk
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

One minute you say you are Pakistani, another you say you are “ETHNICALLY INDIAN” whatever the hell that means. Just LMAO.

And trolling? Projecting much? Open defecation was/is a fact of life for many Indians, none of whom look like Jats:

https://newrepublic.com/article/153549/indias-futile-war-open-defecation

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/open-defecation-india_b_7898834

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-27775327

etc.

Read them when you get some time off from your trolling.

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

Pakistani is a nationality. We are ethnically the same as those across the Radcliffe Line (there is no ethnic/racial/whatever difference between a Pakistani Punjabi and an Indian Punjabi). There’s no contradiction in what I said.

Yes, we are all well aware that open defection is a fact. But you were clearly using it as an insult, which I consider trolling.

Go ahead and fight with your fellow Hindu Indians. As a Pakistani Muslim, I’ve lost interest. Bye.

APthk
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

Thanks for the advice. Glad to hear you wont write more nonsense here. Don’t troll somewhere else.

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

I’ve been commenting on this forum long before you showed up. You are no one to tell me where I can and cannot comment.

I’m bored with this particular topic since I don’t really care at all about phenotypic differences. But if anyone criticizes Pakistan or Islam, they can best believe I’ll be there to put forward the Pakistani point of view.

Rajesh Kumar
Rajesh Kumar
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

Bollywood is Punjabi and is forced on people. Hritik Roshan doesn’t even look remotely slavic and neither does Shahid Kapoor. All Indian Hindus whether they’re Punjabi Jats, Jat Sikhs, or Tamils are all Indians in a western country. They’re all brown skin and maybe would be mistaken for Arab in the wrong places. I’ve seen Pakistani British Mirpuri gangs who fight Nazi guys all the time in Britain and these Mirpuris are generally green and blue eyed swarthy olive toned guys. Google Meggy Khan the drug dealer of bradford and he is a Mirpuri man. Apart from Mirpuris and some full breed Waziri Pashtun races, I see all south asian groups in western countries under the same cultural sphere of people and this includes Pakistani Punjabis of Lahore in America and Canada too and push desiness on the other Pakistani groups. Only the Pakistanis on the northern and western parts of Pakistan are physically and culturally different in their behaviour abroad. Many Indian Americans and Indian Canadians whether Sikh, Hindu, Jat and Tamil were all protesting to stop all Muslim prayers inside of classrooms in Canadian schools. Even in Britain, I see the Hindu and Sikh jats of India ally with conservatives in Britain whereas the Mirpuris and Pathans generally mind their own business or would get violent if necessary like the Lynx gang of the 1980s filled with Mirpuris and Pathans. So to argue about whose skin tone is lighter or who defecates in the open is useless as they all act like the same desis abroad. The Mirpuris and Pathans dont identify with the desi label.

DaThang
DaThang
3 years ago

There is talk about white passing in this thread, which made me look something up https://www.brownpundits.com/2018/11/13/skin-color-of-south-asian-groups/

In this list, the average pigmentation melanin index of Rors was comparable to that of south Indians Brahmins and Saurashtrians. Rors don’t have a listed range but that groups with a comparable average have the extreme light end range comparable to the Italian average. So obviously, the lightest Rors and Jats can pass for Italians, but this isn’t exclusive to Jats, this would also be the case for south Indian Brahmins and Saurshtrians. Don’t know about north Indian Brahmins since they weren’t listed in that post.

Sumit
Sumit
3 years ago
Reply to  DaThang

It lists UP Brahmins, but says they are darker than AP Brahmins?

APthk
3 years ago
Reply to  DaThang

Skin color MEANS NOTHING when it comes to race. Race is about facial features, bone structure, physique, and essentially everything but skin color. Caucasians range from the palest White to the darkest Brown. Whether or not Mexicans and Asians and similarly admixed South Asians have light skin is of no consequence in determining their racial affinities.

By that logic, tanned Italians look Indian and fair ones look White. Tanned Arabs and Persians look Indian, and White ones look West Asian. Fair non-White Hispanics and Latinos are “Whiter” than darker Spaniards, Greeks, and Italians, not to mention MENA people. The implications are just idiotic. The fact that you don’t mention the primacy of facial features and bone structure in looking West Asian or European is telling — you are definitely not a Jatt or part of any Biradri community, otherwise you would never make a cardinal error like this. And South Indian Brahmins and Saurashtrians can pass for Italian? LMAO, now I’ve seen it all. Those aforementioned groups dont even pass in West Asia, forget Europe. They look like non-White Latinos/Hispanics at best, Harnizos when in “pure” form. Jatts can pass in West Asia/Europe regardless of pigmentation, its about everything BUT the pigmentation. It’s not like they are Black to begin with. Shades of Brown exist all over Eurasia, even among Europeans.

Also, just to be accurate here, some Rors are heavily tanned due to farming practices (their untanned body parts are significantly lighter) and also have great sexual dimorphism i.e the Women are several shades lighter than the men. This is why the (questionable) data indicates this. Besides, god knows how they even got this data, considering most Jats and Rors will never consent to having their privacy violated to the point of getting their untanned/tanned pigmentation chronicled. Either way it matters not, because skin color has nothing to do with race.

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

Skin color has nothing to do with race? “Race” is a social construct and in the US it is literally decided by skin color. That’s why people are either “black” or “white”.

APthk
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

And I guess all Whites from Bill Clinton to John Boehner to Ray Romano to John Stamos to Iranians who are considered “White” in the U.S while being as dark as Ahmadinejad, in addition to obviously brown Middle Easterners and even some from Greece and Italy who can be Brown as well, are all of the same Fitzpatrick shade, right? They all had to pass some “paper bag test” to be considered “White” in America? The real troll is you. You know nothing of race and anthropology and what little role skin color plays in that equation. Being “White” in America is a term that unites many ethnic groups under one umbrella, it is not about skin color at all. You obviously know this being an American, (or so you claim) but you are simply trolling to waste time.

Race is about your facial features/bone structure, skin color is secondary for it varies both within and outside of Caucasians, with some Caucasians being darker than East Asians. Does this mean the U.S considers East Asians and lighter African Americans and Mexicans that are non-White but fair-skinned White? By that logic, darker Caucasians like John Boehner and John Stamos and others who are even darker are obviously not White, or less White than Latinos and East Asians like Lucy Liu. Just idiotic to even make these claims. What are you even writing?

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

“Race” is a social construct. This is the academic consensus.

And yes it has to do with skin color. There was a whole classification system (octoroon, quadroon etc).

Relax. You can identify as whatever you want. Not any of our problem. But obviously if you come on a South Asian (really Indian) forum to brag about how White-passing you are, you are going to come in for some criticism.

APthk
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

Race has nothing to do with skin color, for all racial groups have people within a large range of skin colors, from White to Brown, with the exception of Sub Saharan Africans. If you dont understand this and didnt both reading my previous posts, you are being willfully ignorant and simply trolling. Keep the BS coming.

DaThang
DaThang
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

>didn’t bring up facial features
I have done so on multiple occasions in the past, don’t feel like spoon feeding every newcomer, but since you asked for it, here it is detail:
https://www.jstor.org/stable/29539734
I don’t have one on Haryana Jats specifically. Difference in head length is 2.4 mm, the difference in head width is 0.6 mm, difference in facial width is 0.3 mm, difference in bigonial is 1 mm, difference in facial length is 0.7 mm, difference in upper facial length is 0.9 mm, difference in nose length is 0.3 mm, difference in nose width is 1.9 mm.
This was the difference between Jat Sikh females and Bania females.
>Also, just to be accurate here, some Rors are heavily tanned due to farming practices (their untanned body parts are significantly lighter) and also have great sexual dimorphism i.e the Women are several shades lighter than the men. This is why the (questionable) data indicates this. Besides, god knows how they even got this data, considering most Jats and Rors will never consent to having their privacy violated to the point of getting their untanned/tanned pigmentation chronicled. Either way it matters not, because skin color has nothing to do with race.
For someone who loves bringing in experts anywhere, you sure come up with excuses not based on direct data.
>Jatts can pass in West Asia/Europe regardless of pigmentation, its about everything BUT the pigmentation. It’s not like they are Black to begin with. Shades of Brown exist all over Eurasia, even among Europeans.
Sure you can ‘pass’ as a local in parts of west Asia, but you won’t be received well by the locals. See what I have said earlier- western Iranians look down in easterners for the Indian appearance (even though eastern Iranians barely have any AASI). If you are claiming that Jats are craniofacially similar to west Asians to the point where they are easy to blend in then bring the full measured numerical proof. I will be waiting. I remember reading this paper which didn’t specifically mention Jats, but did mention the differing affinities of people from different states to broader populations and Haryanavis had lower affinities to both Australoids and Caucasians.
>Affinities of Haryana population with Australian European of East Asian analysis showed appreciable amount of affinity with above population. However, Haryana males showed lesser affinity (58.33 percent) with European cf. East Asia males as compared to males from Punjab (68.33 percent), UP (63.33 percent) and MP (70.00 percent). As far as females are concerned Haryanvi and Punjabi females showed only 51.66 percent and 56.66 percent affinity
respectively with European cf. East Asian population as compared to UP and MP (61.66) percent each).
>Haryana males and females showed appreciable amount of affinity with Australian aborigine cf. New Guinean. However, Haryana males showed lesser affinity (58.33 percent) with Australian aborigines cf. Guinean males as compared to males from Punjab (63.88 percent), UP (63.88 percent) and MP (66.66 percent). As far as females are concerned Haryanvi and Punjabi females showed only 50 percent and 47.22 percent affinity respectively with
Australian cf. Guinea population as compared to UP (58.31 percent) and MP (55.50 percent) suggesting UP females
showing maximum affinity with Australian aborigines.
From: Influence of metric and non metric osteogenetic
traits on the cranial architecture of
population of Haryana
Now that you have questioned my status as a Jat, I will openly state that I am a Siwach originally from Haryana, related to the Swaich gotra in Punjab. What is your gotra? I suspect that it is only loosely associated with Jats since you shoehorn in Khatri/Aroras into a discussion about Jats.

APthk
3 years ago
Reply to  DaThang

You assume too much my friend. And linking to studies of “Haryanvi and Punjabi males” and generalizing it to Hindu Jats and others? Just LMAO. You just lost all credibility for implying that Haryanvi Male == Hindu Jatt male and Punjabi Jatt Male == Sikh Jatt or Hindu Jatt male. Just LOL. How do we know they tested Jats alone in this study, and not the generic Baniya/Gwala population of Haryana? What are you even posting?

And do you honestly think I will give away things like my surname and gotra so that you can violate my privacy and try to DOXX me? I know how you guys work, and I’m not interested in proving anything to a stranger online, who for all I know, is nothing more than a Gujarati Troll simply assuming new identities to stir the pot and foment controversy. Believe what you want to believe, and if you are really brave, post your family’s pictures like I did. I don’t believe in tall claims and online trolls, I believe in what I can see with my own eyes and the concrete evidence. I am not here to satisfy your whims and desires. You can keep writing inane BS like you always do, it won’t change the facts my “Siwaya” friend.

DaThang
DaThang
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

>You assume too much my friend. And linking to studies of “Haryanvi and Punjabi males” and generalizing it to Hindu Jats and others?

I didn’t say that idiot. This is what I said “. I remember reading this paper which didn’t specifically mention Jats, but did mention the differing affinities of people from different states to broader populations and Haryanavis had lower affinities to both Australoids and Caucasians.” acknowledging that it didn’t separate castes, but it does make one think- in the state where eastern Jats are the most represented, the skulls on average ended up being more distinct. Can’t say something very specific about eastern Jats, but there is a pattern, which is going to be hard to verify since caste specific large scale measurements are very hard to come by.

>How do we know they tested Jats alone in this study, and not the generic Baniya/Gwala population of Haryana?

It doesn’t talk about specific castes, it looks at the population averages in a state and from that we can relate it to the different populations in the state. If you want the specifics, I linked a different paper which explicitly compared Jatt Sikhs to Banias.

>What are you even posting?

Something that you are proving yourself too stupid to understand.

>And do you honestly think I will give away things like my surname and gotra so that you can violate my privacy and try to DOXX me? I know how you guys work, and I’m not interested in proving anything to a stranger online, who for all I know, is nothing more than a Gujarati Troll simply assuming new identities to stir the pot and foment controversy.

I have no interest in DOXXing you, and the fact that you are reluctant to share even a small amount of information just further confirms my suspicious of your true identity. Oh trust me, if I wanted to expose you, ‘you’ as in your online self, not the irl identity (which I have no hard info on and don’t even care about) I would have listed your mainstream accounts already (no online anthroracialBSforum accounts btw, idk if you are even into that shit), but nah I am not interested in it. At the end of all of this I can guarantee that you are much more similar to the Gujarati trolls that live rent free in your head than I am, you’ll just have to live with it.

> Believe what you want to believe, and if you are really brave, post your family’s pictures like I did. I don’t believe in tall claims and online trolls, I believe in what I can see with my own eyes and the concrete evidence.

I am not stupid enough to put out info which can be tracked down easily. Seen this happen to hapless fools too many times to take the risk. Simply reverse googling gives the following results of similarity:

comment image

comment image

comment image

comment image

Reconstruct him however you feel like.

> I believe in what I can see with my own eyes and the concrete evidence.

So your participation in topics that requires even minute abstraction is only a detriment. No wonder you stuck to your own dreamt ‘west Eurasian’ values.

Scorpion Eater
Scorpion Eater
3 years ago

“It’s not just you. This phenotype discussion is a BP obsession. I find all of it rather pathetic.”

totally agree kabir. when this new kid on the block APthk started raving about his almost-there white passing looks, i thought he was joking, but then i was hit by the reality. he was all serious!

this guy may be 90% georgian passing or 95% azeri passing, but there is a single word that describes both his genotype and phenotype very succinctly. its called – chutiya.

sorry, i have something of a jat mouth myself. 🙂

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  Scorpion Eater

I can pass as Italian or Latino or at least vaguely Middle Eastern. But I’ve never felt the need to.

As I said, I have sometimes let people think i was Indian. I much preferred being told “I love Slumdog Millionare” than “Oh, but the Taliban oppress women!”. But that was not due to any discomfort with myself but out of a desire to be spared some ignorance.

(Plus, it wasn’t really a lie. I am ETHNICALLY “Indian”. Two of my grandparents were even from what is today the Republic of India).

APthk
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

So Indian is an ethnicity now? I presume you think its a race too. And that Pakistani is an ethnicity as well. These are the kind of people I’m wasting my time arguing with? There is no way to debate with dumb people, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

“Indian” is not a race. Neither is “Pakistani”. Both are nationalities. But you could figure out from the context what I meant. I am not Indian by nationality but my ethnicity is the same as those of Indian nationals from the same region of the subcontinent.

I was using shorthand but I guess you’re too triggered to appreciate that.

APthk
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

You said, and I quote:

“I am ETHNICALLY Indian” with emphasis on “ETHNICALLY” — are you dyslexic or just selectively ignorant?

Also ethnicity doesn’t correlate to region in the subcontinent, then again you don’t know what you are talking about. If you know what your ethnicity is, why don’t you just list it? There is nothing to hide here.

Also, I’m “triggered” when I’m just talking about the facts, plain and simple? What are you doing, writing nonsense and then trying to redact what you wrote unsuccessfully? You’re playing with fire my friend, you can’t win an argument that is a farce from the beginning. You don’t know how idiotic you sound in all of your posts. Or maybe you do, you’re just trolling for the laughs. With every post, you’re only proving my point, I’m wasting my time dignifying you and your ilk with a response.

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

I emphasized “ethnically” to contrast with “nationally”. I am not nationally Indian. My parents were born in a sovereign Pakistan.

And yes ethnicity does correlate with region. Punjab is a region and people who are native (on either side of the border) are Punjabi.

I am totally Ok with the fact that I am a Pakistani and my ancestors were natives of BRITISH India (India being a social construct created in 1947).

Your fight is not really with me. I don’t really care how you choose to identify. I do think your insistence on how physically distinct you are from other “South Asians” a bit amusing to say the least, but you do you.

APthk
3 years ago
Reply to  Scorpion Eater

You’re right, I’m a Steppe Shudra who also happens to be a Chutiya and a “miscegenated lowlife” — a small correction, however. I dont like 90% or 95% of anything. I look 100% exactly like natives of these countries, as told to me by people from these places, and as I’ve seen myself. You either pass completely or you dont at all. There is no in-between here. Then again, I dont expect you to be familiar with this, given you can only pass in certain countries of South Asia as a native.

Sumit
Sumit
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

Does everyone in your family also look like they could 100% pass in tiblisi?

Full Indians can be very white looking even is the rest of their family looks more Indian typical…

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-5178549/The-Indian-feels-like-foreigner-country.html

APthk
3 years ago
Reply to  Sumit

Did you even bother reading my initial post? All of your queries are answered within. SMDH.

Sumit
Sumit
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

Sorry just saw those.

So based on the pics you posted, your are correct in that your family is atypical looking in India. But also seem lighter more non-Indian looking on than average for Jatts.

Do you think thats accurate ?

I know quite a few Sikh Punjabi Jatts not sure if they are real or fake or whatever. But most look within this range of jatt music videos like this one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmS6fe2IxZA

I guess for Haryanvi Jaats I don’t know any, but I found this video do you think its an accurate depiction of Hindu jats that you are talking about ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9WeupT4Ovg

Janamejaya
Janamejaya
3 years ago

Antics like APthk’s is why in India if someone sees 3 people coming down a road, 1 of whom is Jat, they would say
“Look, A Jat and 2 guys are coming”,
taking care to differentiate the Jat from other humans.

APthk
3 years ago
Reply to  Janamejaya

I’m loving these racist caricatures. Keep them coming, only shows how much you despise the fact that Jatts are/look so different from you guys. Envy and insecurity often rears its ugly head in the form of lampooning and bullying others. Doesn’t matter to me one bit.

Janamejaya
Janamejaya
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

What racist caricatures?
You claim that Jaats are different from other Indians and consider themselves so. Its Indians who falsely claim them as their own.

I counter that Jats are even more different from other Indians than you make a case for and that other Indians know this and never ever claim Jatts are like them or any other humans.

Whats racist in this? Jutts are a separate species and not a race. And that too probably an alien one.

Please check out a few articles on Jatland Wiki if you have any doubts. Only para-human minds could have come up with something like that. It makes no sense to us ordinary humans. Its beyond us.

Vikram
3 years ago

APthk, if you want to talk about discrimination towards you and your family by Hindu upper castes who consider themselves ‘ritually pure’, that is fair and you are welcome to discuss it more. Although skin color and features is often a part of Hindu upper caste identifications, these groups have a more complex notion of identity, and can be discriminatory towards those not in their in group, no matter their skin color/features etc.

However, you seem to be trying to do some kind of reverse racism by insisting that because Jats are distinct to other Indians, they are superior etc. This is pretty senseless. And there is no absolutely no evidence that regular Americans are ‘more accepting’ of Jats than other folks from the subcontinent. In fact, like the upper caste Hindu identification, ‘white’ in America is a complex identity, focused on descent from Western Europe and specific Anglo traditions.

APthk
3 years ago
Reply to  Vikram

Quote where I said that Jats are “superior” — NOWHERE. This is projection and self-delusion at its finest.

Also, are you selectively choosing to ignore the many genuine abuses/expletives and unfair, racist characterizations heaped on Jats by justanotherlurker and other people in this thread that are ACTUALLY racist?

Whether Jats receive better treatment is not even under discussion, we can go back and forth all day and its your opinion vs mine unless we see peer-reviewed studies that show otherwise. What is under discussion is that they look distinct. That is a fact.

This is why I tend to avoid these discussions, they always are one-sided, partial and end up leading to lots of drama by people who refuse to accept the truth. There is nothing more to add. May god give you the strength to accept the truth before its too late.

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

lol okay bro. say hello to me like a man if you ever see me. And trust me, I have my share of fun in residency 😉 LMFAO reputable website. Which one? Name it. Never knew I was so popular. Lol what anthrogenica? The same one you shit on Dathang about. You are sad bro.

And you have pretty severe racial dating hangups. All types of women like me and I like them. You have these weird ass phenotypic issues. Good for you. And trolling lol? My comments take me 5 min.

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

there are no peer reviewed studies with a big enough sample size showing their entire diversity sufficiently that show the level of difference you are claiming. You literally claimed a common Baloch aka East Iranic look to Eastern Euro look. I don’t think you get how laughable that is. Use your own logic about the value we should put into academic literature and realize that you have none to support your nonsensical claims.

And trust me I’ve been to Haryana enough. My Dad’s entire family is settled there and owns enough land. I’ve seen enough Hindu Jats in summers there as a kid. If anything, I think it is you who lacks perspective. Granted, you could be so delusional at this point that anyone who doesn’t fit the unrealistic phenotypic paradigm you created must be a “fake Jat.” That does sound like a Nazi-ish. But I’ll give you some benefit of the doubt and say that maybe you just haven’t met enough people.

APthk
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

You just won’t stop trolling my Patel friend. Honestly though, the difference between a Mestizo and a Criollo is quite insane, so I’m really tickled that you think you can pass or that others have mistaken you for a Jatt, as you have claimed on this website many times. You didn’t even bother reading and answering any of the questions on my longer post to you, because you know whatever I wrote is true. Besides, the only reason you are wasting your time doing this in RESIDENCY is because you know deep inside that you wouldn’t dare say such things to us in real life to our faces, (not only because you wouldn’t even recognize us) but because you would be ashamed to do so after realizing just how wrong you are about your claims. This is a safe space for you and your followers to write BS and prop it up with anecdotal experiences and subjective claims that dont pass muster. Be my guest, keep entertaining yourself with foolish claims and have your followers prop them up with more of their own.

I’m sure you’ve been to Haryana and met even more Hindu Jats than I have, despite me being a Jat and you being a Patel. Then again, there is no way to scientifically verify such arguments, anyone can claim to have “been to Haryana” and “to have been asked whether I was Jatt” or even “seen many Hindu Jatts during the Summers as a kid”. LMAO nothing but a bunch of made-up claims that we have no way of verifying. ANYONE can claim the same things online and there would be absolutely no way of knowing if he/she is telling the truth. You are just making up strawman claims to support your nonexistent argument when we are actually sharing our anecdotal experiences being Hindu Jats ourselves. A Patel is going to teach me about my own people? Laughable thought.

Also, you say:

“There are no peer reviewed studies with a big enough sample size showing their entire diversity sufficiently that show the level of difference you are claiming.”

I assume there are peer-reviewed studies that show that Jats look more similar to neighboring populations likes Patels and Reddy then? (according to your claims) If so, I ‘d love to see them, because until then its your nonsense as a Patel against my personal lived experiences as a Hindu Jat. Of course, I have way more credibility than you do, it goes without saying. But you can keep spreading your BS lies everywhere and keep providing fodder for your juvenile fan base on here. I’m just here to put you and your ridiculous claims straight, don’t plan on staying here any longer and wasting time talking to people I’d never talk to in real life anyway. Especially people like you.

I lack perspective? I’m delusional? I haven’t met enough people? A Patel like you who is an ABCD brought up in the US has met more Hindu Jats and knows more about my own people than I, a Hindu Jat, who has lived in NW India as a child knows about them? HAHA what a joke.

BTW, did you take a look at the pictures I posted? I noticed you didnt really comment on either of them. You look just like those Indian kids in that picture with my younger sister (albeit a grown-up version) — not even the men in my family have even a passing resemblance to your mestizo face. You look nothing like any of those people. I’d love to see what your family looks like in comparison to them. Of course, I’m not really interested, it would just show people how different you are from us.

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

I posited numerous times we meet in real life. Put your money where you mouth is. I’ll be in Austin early July, New York mid september, California in December, and Texas in February. Chicago for a weekend next month actually too. I’ll gave you a few hours to kill in morning. Let’s meet up. I’ll name a coffee spot, if you’re down. You can then see “how much of a pussy I am.” I will say the exact same thing again and again. Let’s hang out. See who is the real man ;). Heck I’ll even be nice a buy you a coffee. What do you like? Cafe americano?

And yes that’s the point. The more AASI end of the Jat range does look like the “mestizos” you keep insulting. I also I am not Patel for the record. But that doesn’t matter. That’s just a generic insult you and your buddy “Raj Kumar” want to use to disparage me by associating me with a group you think of as below yourselves. Keep trying guys. Do better. If you’re both gay, I think you’d make good partners. You seem to have similar world views and personality dispositions. I can get ordained as a priest for the wedding. Razib can live browncast it. Social distancing compliant and all

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

the “dreaded” MCAT isn’t that hard bro. And man all of the NW gang is here. Paindu, what are you referring to? Those Reich jatt Sikh samples? i’m not sure of the discussion. The mislabeling claims? I mean an alternative reputable paper can challenge those and showcase something else. Fine by me. What am I supposedly projecting?

Man, I’m just giddy lol. Today is a blast from the past. After seeing so much death and sadness with COVID-19 surging, I finally get a good honest unfiltered set of laughs. Thank you guys.

APthk
3 years ago
Reply to  APthk

Ah, so you think “Patel” is an insult? Do you even know what that word means and what people are included under its umbrella? SO ironic that a Gujarati vania doesn’t even know what his associations are with people of his own ilk, and yet claims to know more than an actual Hindu Jatt about what Jatts look like. You just lost even more credibility. Sad, because you look like the many tens of millions of Patels that live in India and in the diaspora abroad. Gandhi himself wasn’t too different from you. You could also easily fit among Marwaris and other Rajasthani and Gujarati middle and lower-caste groups with that face of yours.

But what really fascinates me is that “Patel” is an insult for you — NO ONE used it as such — you made this characterization yourself. This also implies that you think “Jatt” is some kind of honorary title, which explains your angst-ridden trolling on a plethora of websites all over the internet. This is so FUNNY! You hate looking like a Patel and having the same autosomal makeup as them, so you waste time writing inane nonsense on race forums (where you get banned because even a bunch of low-brown morons like them got sick of your antics) and so you decide to come here and shit all over the place with your absurd claims. You are so in denial and so beyond help that it is actually hilarious! And you think writing this drivel will change people’s DNA and facial appearance/race? Absolutely freaking hilarious.

Your posts are nothing more than a litany of logical fallacies. Good exercise in logic for me, so I don’t mind putting you in your foolish place. Keep the BS coming, my “elite residency program” Patel friend. I bet that program of yours serves Slurpies on the regular. (Or maybe its a motel with a choppy internet connection.) Whip up one for me while you’re between orders, I’m getting thirsty reading through your BS posts that are nothing but the delusions of some Gujju Vania with too much time on his hands. On that note, I forgot, I have to throw out some of the frozen Theplas my neighbor gifted me without asking, hate that stuff.

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago