How should we respond if someone says “mean mad asian man”?

Please see starting 1 hour, 4 minutes in:

A serious and important question for the entire Brown Pundit community: Should we do anything if someone such as Mr. Micheal Eric Dyson calls us a:
“mean mad asian man and the viciousness is evident”?

I don’t know the answer, but the attack is coming. Already a plurality of the world’s billionaires are Asian. And soon a majority will be Asian. When I was fifteen I saw academics from American university attack “Asian fat cats”; and call Hindus/Buddhists “Nazis” and “Fascists.” Back then American academics were anti conservative muslim too (81% of American muslims voted for GW Bush in 2000).

Mr. Jordan Peterson is not an American and very likely most of his fans are not Americans. Mr. Michael Eric Dyson acknowledged knowing almost nothing about Jordan Peterson personally and launched this attack abroad, in Toronto, before a very large Jordan Peterson supportive crowd. Mr. Dyson knew the foreign crowd would boo him. He said it anyway.

If Jordan Peterson with his enormous international prestige can be attacked in this way, any of us can be attacked as a “mean mad asian man” far more easily. [Asian woman can be attacked as a “mean mad asian.”]

Americans, unusually provincial by global standards, are generally unaware of the degree to which the rest of the world watch what Americans say. My fear is that attitudes such as Mr. Eric Dyson’s will fuel and exacerbate global anti-Americanism. Mr. Eric Dyson is personifying the caricature of the “Ugly American”.

Mr. Dyson’s harsh advocacy of the tyranny of modernism/marxism/ structuralism/Freudianism/Subaltern studies/post modernism fills people around the world with fear. Imperialist, orientalist, hegemonic, exploitative Europeans intentionally oppressed their “darkie” subjects with a colonization of the mind to promote inferiority complex and damage self confidence. The universalist meritocratic meta narratives of advanced ancient civilizations, cultures, sciences and philosophies were deconstructed, delegitimized, negated and replaced by a post modernist universalist norm and a post modernist meta-narrative.

It is only now that Asians and to a lesser degree Latin Americans and the African continent are slowly breaking out of this colonization of the mind.

It is incredibly offensive and dangerous to in the slightest way indirectly imply that “darkies” are not potentially very wise and very powerful.

It is also misleading to imply that European ideas of post modernism are not in themselves a universalist norm and universalist meta-narrative aimed at negating and replacing other universalist norms and meta-narratives from ancient cultures around the world.

Almost all tyrannical systems are led by well intentioned leaders who think they are doing good; the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Mr. Eric Dyson is such a person and I hope his philosophy doesn’t come to power.

I also fear for the future of the African continent. To the degree people around the world see content of this kind; Asians, Latin Americans, Europeans, North Americans will insist that work, business, student visas not be given to people of African ancestry. This would be devastating to the economy of the African continent. [I believe that Asian countries, Latino countries, Europeans, Canada and the US should issue more student visas, work visas, business visas and tourist visas to people of African ancestry.]

I believe Mr. Eric Dyson does not represent most African American people and that most African American people would regard his saying “mean mad white man and the viciousness is evident” to be inappropriate.

PS. Zachary wrote an interesting article on “Why is white such a problematic term”.

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AnAn

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Tim Lynch

5 years ago

Eric Dyson is a race baiting charlatan who uses straw men arguments consisting of what all the right people “know” to be true to bludgeon appointments into submission. All people of the world have, at some point in history, suffered the indignity of slavery. Only one people spent years and billions to fight slavery and that was the Western Europeans who happen to be white people and also happened to believe that enslaving other men was a sin.
Asian men have faced pernicious discrimination in this country in my life time with the arrival of the boat people from Vietnam. They arrived penniless yet within one generation had moved up and out of the ghetto’s and into the upper middle class. That American blacks cannot do the same has nothing to do with white people keeping them down and everything to do with lover average IQ’s, higher average testosterone levels (in both male and females) and a dysfunctional culture that stigmatizes academic achievement while encouraging horrific levels of inter and extra racial violence.
Dyson is just a mean racist shitbird who should be avoided at all costs but will no doubt be all over facebook and youtube because he fits the left’s narrative about dem poo black folk. He’s an insult to every American regardless of skin color.

Kabir

5 years ago

Reply to Tim Lynch

Victim blaming is not attractive. There are structural injustices that still exist and that African-Americans face every day.

Author

AnAn

5 years ago

” There are structural injustices that still exist and that African-Americans face every day.”

There are structural injustices that exist in every country that people of African ancestry face every day. You are too provincial 🙂

One of those structural injustices is the colonization of the mind with post modernism, subaltern studies, inferiority complex, divide and conquer. The Europeans taught this to Africans in the continent before they left in the post WWII period.

And it isn’t only Europeans who are guilty. Many American caucasions try to brainwash “marginalized groups” [whatever that means . . . they don’t think Asians or cis-gendered caucasion males are marginalized] with the same inferiority complex, divide and conquer, lack of self confidence and heavy psychological damage. They control every K-12 teacher credentialing program in Canada and the US that I know of. Now American K-12 children are being taught post modernist divide and conquer brainwashing from early childhood.

“That American blacks cannot do the same has nothing to do with white people keeping them down.” I disagree with this because of K-12 education and the American cultural zeitgeist promoting single female headed households and a lot else that would need to be described in detailed articles.

“a dysfunctional culture that stigmatizes academic achievement while encouraging horrific levels of inter and extra racial violence”
This is true. Post modernist caucasions are partly responsible for this. And it is more than just post modernist. There are other things that people without African ancestry have psychologically done to people with African ancestry all over the world.

“higher average testosterone levels (in both male and females)” There is academic literature on this. I would like to study this more carefully before definitively responding. I have heard African Americans say that “high testosterone levels” is no excuse for misbehavior or not succeeding in life. I agree with this sentiment. Through breathing, stretching, exercising, meditating (or their own religious practice), diet, someone can succeed despite high testosterone.

“lover average IQ’s” this deserves several detailed articles. There is no doubt that lower IQs are closely correlated with lower socio-economic outcomes in life. What I don’t understand is why lower IQ should be correlated with higher crime. In the 1980s and 1990s large parts of India were very poor and very low crime. Not just India, but much of the world. It would seem to me that lower IQ people would be less likely to commit crimes.

I think global K-12 schools should focus far less on academic memorization and far more on increasing intelligence. Exercise, stretching, breathing, meditation has a statistical effect on IQ. We need to teach kids how to work smarter, not harder. We need more inspiration and less perspiration. But there is strong opposition to ideas of this sort from post modernists and subaltern studies types. It will be very hard to fight this global zeitgeist.

Tim, you might want to watch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOsrBF5qwBc
There is new research that living in a neighborhood with a large number of single mother households hurts social mobility more than living in a single mother household. We need a lot more research of this kind if the world is serious about reducing global poverty and increasing global material living standards.

Kabir

5 years ago

Reply to AnAn

The US was built on the backs of slaves. Seriously subaltern studies is not the problem.

That’s all I’m going to say because I don’t want to get into another “debate” like the one on Palestine.

Author

AnAn

5 years ago

Reply to Kabir

Kabir, Pakistan was built on the back of slaves. India was built on the back of slaves. Iran was built on the back of slaves. The entire muslim world has built on the back of slaves. China was built on the back of slaves. Brazil, Chile, Argentina and Mexico were built on the back of slaves. Africa was built on the back of slaves.

Slavery ended long ago. We as a world need to move on.

This said, post modernism isn’t the only psychological trauma that is hurting the self confidence of people. The ancient inter-generational traumas of slavery live on still. The remnants of this too needs to be addressed to remove inferiority complex.

I want to quote the narration from Abu Hurayrah in both Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim about Adam and the image of Allah but won’t because I don’t want to offend you. 🙂

I think we need to inspire people with the truth:
–they are great
–they are good
–they are beautiful (if female)
–they are strong
–no one and nothing is powerful enough to keep them down
–they are potentially omnipotent (all powerful)
–they are potentially omniscient (all knowing)

So that everyone can reach for the stars.

Kabir

5 years ago

Reply to AnAn

Plantation slavery was something pretty unique to the US and the Caribbean. There is no evidence that “Pakistan was built on the backs of slaves”. Pakistanis were not importing people from Africa and having them pick cotton. This thread is also not about Islam. Not everything is about Islam.

Slavery is the original sin of the US just as the Holocaust is the original sin of Germany and the Nakba is the original sin of “Israel”.

The legacy of slavery lives on and there are structural injustices that African-Americans face daily that non African-Americans don’t have to face.

I think you live in some world of your own where “postmodernism” (which you still don’t understand) is the root cause of every problem. There is no point arguing with you on this.

P.S. Only Allah is omnipotent and omniscient. These qualities don’t apply to human beings.

Author

AnAn

5 years ago

Reply to Kabir

Islamist Jihadi conquerors put many tens of millions of the people they conquered all over the world into slavery, including huge numbers of Asians and Europeans. Jihadi Islamists ruled a majority but not all of the African continent and converted much of the local population into slaves. They also sold slaves in most of the world for money. Most of the African slaves sold to Brazil, Mexico, Argentina, Chile, Cuba, America, Arab world, Asia etc. were sold by muslim slave owners.

The nonmuslim world remembers this. This is at the heart of anti muslim sentiment in the world. My response to nonmuslims who bring this up and they do bring this up is that muslims alive today are in no way responsible for any crimes their ancient ancestors might have committed. We all need to forget and forgive and let go.

I also say this to the Hindutva people about the extraordinarily large numbers of Arya people converted into slaves (Zorastrians, Buddhists, Jains, Hindus).

Most of the countries in Africa had slavery for thousands upon thousands of years before the Islamist Jihadi conquerors arrived, so Islam did not start slavery.

This said, there are multiple sections in Abrahamic texts that allow slavery–including the Jewish texts, Bible, and holy Quran. The Abrahamic faiths are working through the very difficult process of coming to grips with this.

Slavery is the original sin of Christianity if you will that brought slavery and the justification of slavery to Latin America, the US and Canada (Canada began to free their slaves in the 1790s).

“The legacy of slavery lives on and there are structural injustices that African-Americans face daily that non African-Americans don’t have to face.”

There have been structural challenges in the way Africans have been treated by non Africans for many thousands of the years. The whole world is guilty. There were ships that traveled between Africa and India 4 1/2 thousand years ago (I suspect a lot longer than that). It was likely a challenge then too. China is likely mentioned in the Mahabharata and there was trade between India and China, and therefore between China and Africa then too. I suspect racism was a challenge Africans confronted with respect to Chinese thousands of years ago. You know the extent of bigotry Africans in every part of the muslim world and in every part of Latin America. It has ancient roots.

The world needs to collectively work on bigotry towards Africans, much the way the world needs to collectively work on reducing sectarianism towards Jews. No single country can accomplish this very challenging task. And no country has come close to succeeding yet.

Racism and bigotry usually harm the person who is racist or bigoted vastly more than it harms the object of their racism and bigotry. We must try to reduce racism and bigotry mostly out of love and compassion for the racist and bigot. In many cases the objects of racism and bigotry benefit from racism and bigotry.

Racism and bigotry are mostly unrelated to the socio economic challenges people of African ancestry confront in every country in the world. It is far more urgent that the entire world partners with people of African ancestry to socio-economically empower people of African ancestry around the world than work to reduce racism against people of African heritage.
++++++++++++++++++++
“P.S. Only Allah is omnipotent and omniscient. These qualities don’t apply to human beings.”
Kabir, you don’t need to read or study eastern theology. Eastern Theology is opposed to conversion and proselytizing since eastern thought believes that all paths might be just as good and all paths lead to the same place. You might be right and eastern philosophy might be wrong.

This is addressed to readers other than Kabir:
This theological eastern (Toaist, Shinto, Arya) belief is subscribed to by many Sufis too. When we become nothing and Allah flows through us then we appear as omnipotent and omnipresent from the outside. Obviously I greatly respect the right of Sunnis and Shia to disagree with this theology (although I suspect that secretly many Sunnis and Shia might also believe this.)

Kabir

5 years ago

Reply to Kabir

My only point is that human beings are very limited. It is almost impossible for us to step out of our own heads and truly understand what is happening in someone else’s head. This is what omniscience is. “Debates” on BP have shown that I don’t understand what is going on in your head and you don’t understand what is going on in my head. Omnipotence is being all powerful. The only people who think they are all powerful are people who are diagnosed with schizophrenia. Most rational people recognize that we all have to deal with circumstances outside our control (structural and economic factors). God (in whatever form you believe in Him) is obviously not limited. Lord Shiva can destroy the world. Allah can smite entire peoples. The Abrahamic belief is that God said “Let there be light” and so it was. If I say “Let there be light”, nothing happens.

Slavery has existed in many forms yes (the Old Testament is evidence of this) however Plantation Slavery was unique to the US and the West Indies.

I can only refer you to Ta-Nehisi Coates on this issue. But obviously if you think he is a “postmodernist” you may not give very much credence to his arguments.

Author

AnAn

5 years ago

I suggest everyone watch this conversation between Glenn Loury and Amy Wax:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOsrBF5qwBc
Among other things they discuss the increasing Asian academic dominance of the university. They were discussing American university. But it isn’t only American university. All major universities in the world are increasingly academically dominated by people of Asian heritage.

Should all of us be deeply worried about this? Might this lead to global anti-Asian riots? What if anything can be done to prevent major global anti-Asian riots.

Author

AnAn

5 years ago

Kabir, I respect your right to interpret religion your own way.

“The only people who think they are all powerful are people who are diagnosed with schizophrenia”
Now you begin to understand why eastern philosophy has deep disagreements with Freudianism.

When I refer to post modernism I am discussing the trend of modernism to marxism to structuralism to Freudianism to post modernism to subaltern studies. Of all of these philosophies the one I have the most problems with is Freudianism.

Again I respect your rights to observe the world as you choose and draw your own conclusion from the life and light Allah shines through you.

“My only point is that human beings are very limited.”
We have made progress. This is the heart of our disagreement. When we disagree with others, to understand our disagreement we must locate the assumptions we disagree with, or the implicit assumptions within our assumptions we disagree with.

I wish to write about neuroscience, genetics, bio-engineering, AI and how we are less limited than most think:
http://www.brownpundits.com/2018/03/31/neoliberalism/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Ta-Nehisi Coates isn’t exactly popular among the African American leaders that I admire (John McWhorter and Glenn Loury) but the reasons for why can be examined in other articles.

I have studied slavery. Let me limit this discussion to African slaves (there were many millions of non African slaves too).
-My understanding is that the eastern slave trade (some might call it oriental slave trade) involved a similar to greater number of slaves than the transatlantic slave trade.
-There was also the mass export of slaves from Southern/Western parts of Africa to Northern and Eastern Africa.
-And there is the transatlantic slave trade.
-And there was slavery where local Africans owned slaves from rival or enemy clans (or villages) nearby. This type of slavery was different in some respects from the above three types of slavery and let us ignore this type of slavery for the moment.

It is unclear to me how the transatlantic slave trade was worse than the eastern slave trade or the export of African slaves to Northern and Eastern Africa.

With respect to the transatlantic slave trade alone, would you agree that slavery in Canada, America, Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Cuba and other parts of Latin America were similar?

One of the reasons that “Black Lives Matter” excluded Latino Americans from their ranks (except as allies) is precisely because of the history of slavery in Latin America. Latino Americans are treated similar to caucasions and Asian Americans by the American chapters of “Black Lives Matter”.

Of course I am acknowledging that “Black Lives Matter” is now a global movement which greatly shapes politics in Canada, Europe, Latin America (they seem especially powerful in Brazil), several countries from the African continent, Australia and New Zealand. There are chapters of Black Lives Matter in Japan and many Asian countries too. [Linked to three Japanese videos above to provide a sense of the Japanese backlash to “Black Lives Matter”] I am especially curious about where “Black Lives Matter” goes in China, India and the Arab world.

Having acknowledged the significant global power of the “Black Lives Matter” movement; I would like to bring the discussion back to the US. “Black Lives Matter” was in part set off by two events:
-the shooting death of African American Trayvon Martin by Hispanic Latino American George Zimmerman
-the death of African American Michael Brown by Darren Wilson; which was triggered by a physical altercation between (Hindu Indian Asian American) Anand Patel and Michael Brown a few minutes earlier.

The failure of hispanic Latino Americans and Asian Americans to manage relations with some parts of the Black American community is part of what set off “Black Lives Matter”. “Black Lives Matter” had a couple major features in 2014:
–A strong rejection and repudiation of the respected elders of the African American community (Pres Obama, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Oprah, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Bill Cosby, Glenn Loury, John McWhorter, Congressional Black Caucus, Magic Johnson, Morgan Freeman, Nelson Mandela {yes he isn’t American}, Thomas Sowell, Larry Elder, Colin Powell, Whoopi Goldberg) [“We cultivate an intergenerational and communal network free from ageism. We believe that all people, regardless of age, show up with the capacity to lead and learn.” . . . by which they mean that elders shouldn’t be treated differently from young inexperienced people]
–A strong repudiation, deconstruction, de-legitimization, negation and critique of the “politics of respectability” which had dominated African American politics from Fredrick Douglas to 2008.
–A strong repudiation of the concept of the “Rainbow Coalition” and the idea of “people of color” which tried to combine African Americans with other powerful groups
–A push back against cis-gendered two parent families in favor of alternative nontraditional family structure (presumably single mother headed households, LBGTQ households of various kinds)
–closing all prisons
–disarming police and removing police from high crime areas
https://blacklivesmatter.com/about/what-we-believe/

Kabir, I don’t see how this issue can be resolved unless everyone in the world talks openly and honestly about slavery in ancient history; and work on global solutions for African / non African rapprochement. How do you think this can be resolved?

Kabir

5 years ago

Reply to AnAn

I have not deeply examined the history of the global slave trade (nor do I have the time or the intellectual energy to do so). But I know that Turkish slaves became very powerful and sometimes became rulers (Jannissaries). We also had “slave dynasties” in South Asia. I believe Qutubuddin Aibak was a slave.

I do think there are some very significant differences between Plantation Slavery in the Americas and slavery in other parts of the world. But again, this is not my area of expertise.

I find your lack of respect for single mother headed households and LBTQ people kind of problematic. If two gay men want to start a family why are you being judgemental about that? Also, some single mothers do a wonderful job of raising children while some traditional heterosexual two parent households are incredibly toxic environments.

Finally, psychology has come a long way since Freud. Freud is now referenced more in Literary Criticism than in psychology. But as someone who has studied psychology academically and also been under treatment, I can say with reasonable confidence that people who think they are omnipotent are generally either having a manic episode or are schizophrenic. Most rational people recognize that there are circumstances in all our lives that are beyond our control and we have to deal with them as best we can.

Xerxes the Magian

5 years ago

Reply to Kabir

American slavery is Sui generics in the sense that 18% of black Americans have European ancestry.

Considering the vast majority of that ancestry is male ancestors that means up to a third of slaveholders were fathering their own slaves.

There’s something very evil about enslaving ur own offspring for belonging to a different race. Black America is more SWASP than some of white (Ellis Island) America..

Kabir

5 years ago

Reply to Xerxes the Magian

Yes, you just read Faulkner or Toni Morrison and you find Plantation owners fathering children by slaves (which is rape) and then raping their own slave daughters. There was some very sick stuff happening in the American South.

Author

AnAn

5 years ago

Reply to Xerxes the Magian

I would be curious about what genetics tells us about this.

Suspect most of the mixing was by free blacks and non blacks post 1865 but I would love to test this hypothesis with data and find out how much slave/owner ancestry exists.

Note that in America there twice as many black female college graduates as male black college graduates. Because many black males marry non blacks, this forces black females who wants to marry to look to nonblacks. Many black females have told me this.

“There’s something very evil about enslaving ur own offspring for belonging to a different race. Black America is more SWASP than some of white (Ellis Island) America..”

Quite agree. Part of the issue is that raping slaves was illegal and prosecutable; which caused slave owners to try to hide paternity.

Humans are complex. In many cases the slave female may have wanted a relationship with someone from the owner’s family (owners’ son for example). In many cases slave children were educated by the owners children and had very close relationships with the owners children from childhood. Intergenerational slaves were often trusted parts of the extended family. Under these circumstances how can romantic relationships between slaves and the owner’s families be avoided?

Before 1865 blacks who lived in the North and West of the US (large majority of America’s population) were free. A large percentage of of blacks in the south were free blacks too. Many slave owners were black in the South. Many slaves saved money and bought their own freedom. I am curious about the extent of inter race marriage pre 1865.

Kabir

5 years ago

Reply to AnAn

Raping slaves was not illegal. You don’t ask consent from your property. If these people were not considered people, then consent was not really an issue.

There was a time in England when you couldn’t be charged with raping your wife. It was assumed that by entering into a marriage, she had agreed to sex on demand.

In India, Maneka Gandhi still thinks marital rape is not a thing. This discussion is not even being held in Pakistan.

hoipolloi

5 years ago

Reply to AnAn

AnAn, Have you seen the famous TV series Roots or read the book of the same name by Alex Haley? Just wondering.

hoipolloi

5 years ago

Reply to Xerxes the Magian

Zach say, “…18% of black Americans have European ancestry.”

If you apply the one drop of blood rule, most African Americans are of European heritage.

“…up to a third of slaveholders were fathering their own slaves.” “There’s something very evil about enslaving your own offspring…”

Thanks for the insight, I never thought of this angle. This is the abomination of the institution of slavery as practiced in the U. S.

Xerxes the Magian

5 years ago

Reply to hoipolloi

Yes it’s a pretty novel way to look at it- the crime of Afram slavery was also that Southern landlords didn’t recognise their own children but instead saw them as slaves.

Of course more research needs to be done on this but in the Muslim world I suspect the sons of slaves had a much higher status than slaves but a lower status than freeborn mothers.

This of course may paradoxically have to do with the higher status of (white) women in the West and strength of monogamy; kind of how like white women put an end to mid 19th century Anglo Indian mixture in India.

If there were no white women in India but just a steady supply of white men; we very well could have seen a Latin American or Mughal type of India where the upper classes/castes were fully Europeans with Indian mixture but fully Indian etc..

Independence would have led to a very different course with Johnsons and Smiths leading the revolution instead of Nehrus and Gandhis.

The Brits of course learnt from their mistakes in the Americas and sought to enmesh their British officials firmly in the English system, which ultimately was a mistake.

The Crown repeats the same mistake with British Royalty; instead of Meghan moving to London why didn’t Harry move to Toronto?

That would have entrenched Canada in the Monarchy for another 3 generations.

Old Blue

5 years ago

It’s interesting that this discussion mirrors the debate in that both failed to even approach a robust discussion of whether or not political correctness is progress. The original post also offered discussion of the debating style of the participants. The comments focus on race, slavery and the comparative wonderfulness of any other slavery to slavery found in colonial and confederate America.

Political correctness is not limited to discussion of race, nor slavery, nor whether or not structural impediments to individual growth exist. Yet, in both the debate and these comments, those have become the main items for discussion. I submit that these things, while clearly being topics that can support a lively, even heated, discussion, are peripheral to the original proposition. Even a robust discussion of the concept of, “the ugly American,” or of the direct personal attacks by Michael Dyson in response to the ideas discussed by Jordan Peterson would be on point. Both topics are important and deserve examination. But, no; it’s much easier to glom on to the old tropes. It’s easier to stay on the subject of how offended one is by history, especially the histories of others, than to discuss how the attempted suppression of free, and even offensive, speech, and therefore free thought, is progress.

It boils down to fear that opposing thought, verbally expressed, may gain traction. It is the belief that anyone’s feelings are more important than the thoughts of others. It boils down to attempting to create consequences for thought as if it were equivalent to action. Is this progress, or is it an attempt to control others; people over whom we do not and should not have control?

Alternatively, in watching the debate, my perception was that two participants discussed concepts and two participants spent a lot of time engaging in ad hominem attacks, which seriously devalued their arguments. What do any of you think of that?

hoipolloi

5 years ago

Kabir says: “Plantation slavery was something pretty unique to the US and the Caribbean.” “Slavery is the original sin of the US …” “The legacy of slavery lives on and there are structural injustices that African-Americans face daily that non African-Americans don’t have to face.”

When I first arrived in U.S. I had similar thoughts and still do. There is a glimmer of hope though. American white society for all its faults try to make amends to these injustices. For example, they purposely made sure that some one like Obama became President.

Author

AnAn

5 years ago

Reply to hoipolloi

hoipolloi, how would you compare the way non black Americans treat blacks compared to how people in other countries treat blacks?

How would you compare the way Asian Americans treat blacks compared to how hispanic Americans treat blacks and how caucasion Americans treat blacks and how American blacks treat blacks?

Kabir

5 years ago

Reply to hoipolloi

Obama is biracial and was raised by his white relatives. We haven’t yet had a truly black President. Also, the racist backlash to Obama led to Mr. Trump.

hoipolloi

5 years ago

Reply to Kabir

Kabir, I too had similar misgivings about Obama’s race. No body mistook Obama for white while he is growing up. It is Michelle, his wife who is a full blooded American black, a descendent of slaves. She was the First Lady kind of completes the picture.

P.S. While we are at it Sheikh Mujibur Rahman was repeatedly taunted by his political opponents that he is not a real Muslim. He had a nice rejoinder. If you had not heard of it, ask me I will reply. 🙂

Kabir

5 years ago

Reply to hoipolloi

Yes, the First Lady was a descendant of slaves and Obama also identifies as Black. But I don’t think his election means that racism has ceased to exist in the US.

Michelle Obama 2020!

Dain

5 years ago

Reply to Kabir

Obama was voted in twice. Why didn’t American racism rear it’s head in 2012 to make sure he didn’t get a second term? Or even a first?

I dunno. Too many blue states in the Midwest that went for Obama in 08 then went for Trump in 16. It’s hard to believe but it makes some sense. In both cases voters sensed that this figure was a break from the norm and they wanted to back someone more unorthodox. Not that you’re necessarily wrong but something feels amiss with the “Trump was voted in due to racism” thesis.

Author

AnAn

5 years ago

“But as someone who has studied psychology academically and also been under treatment, I can say with reasonable confidence that people who think they are omnipotent are generally either having a manic episode or are schizophrenic. Most rational people recognize that there are circumstances in all our lives that are beyond our control and we have to deal with them as best we can.”

This is a sectarian attack by the psychiatric profession (not you personally Kabir) against over a billion people (Buddhist, Sikh, Jain, Hindu, Taoists).

Kabir

5 years ago

Reply to AnAn

We obviously differ in our understanding of rationality.

Also, the purpose of psychotherapy is to help people lead functional lives. Probing spiritual or mystical experiences is not really the domain of the psychologist.

I can tell you that people with delusions of grandeur or omnipotence are usually not very functional. That’s why they are entering treatment in the first place.

Author

AnAn

5 years ago

Reply to Kabir

This is a major problem. Among these “manic and schizophrenic” people are Steve Jobs and Steve Jobs’ crazy ones:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rwsuXHA7RA
So are many of the world’s most successful people in every sphere of achievement.

Almost all of these people would have been pumped full of brain damaging opiates had they seen a psychiatrist.

Kabir

5 years ago

Reply to AnAn

People with true manic depression are often unable to hold down jobs and commit suicide at higher rates than the general population. Some psychiatric drugs save lives, though yes some drugs are way over-prescribed.

Author

AnAn

5 years ago

“I do think there are some very significant differences between Plantation Slavery in the Americas and slavery in other parts of the world. But again, this is not my area of expertise.”

Do you think slavery in Canada, US, Mexico, Chile, Argentina, Brazil, Cuba and other parts of the Americas was similar?

How can relations between hispanic Americans (19%) and black Americans (12%) be improved in your opinion? How can relations between Asian Americans (6 1/2%) and black Americans (12%) be improved in your estimation?

Kabir

5 years ago

Reply to AnAn

The first slave revolt was in Haiti, I think. South America is very colorist with terms like “mestizo” etc that are very specific about how much black or native blood someone has. I haven’t really studied too much about South America so I can’t comment much.

Asian Americans tend to see themselves as the “model minority” and are big on academic success (which is not necessarily a bad thing) and generally want to assimilate into White society. I didn’t really hang out with Asians who were not Indian or Pakistani so I can’t generalize. The “Desis” were very much into attaining the trappings of upper-middle class success and were not really into black culture. But I do feel that “Desis” tend to hold unfavorable views of African-Americans and some of that is based on the views their parents have brought with them from the mother country.

I’m not saying that there are not problematic aspects to African-American culture but let’s not ignore the legacy of slavery and structural factors. There are studies that show numerically that African-Americans are paid less than Whites for doing the same job. I can’t pull them out for you now, but I recall seeing them somewhere.

Author

AnAn

5 years ago

Reply to Kabir

Kabir, I would suggest you download the data sets yourself and run your own multivariate regressions on it where you hold for multiple other socio economic variables other than race. You can use excel. And generate your own data. Try to find narratives to understand your own data.

Obviously black should be paid the sames as caucasions, hispanics and Asians for the same work.

As far as I know accounting for six factors gets rid of the large majority of racial difference in salaries:
-education (obvious)
-type of job (obvious)
-experience (obvious)
-location (obvious)
-being raised in a two parent household
-being raised in a neighborhood with a large ratio of two parent households

A lot of research is being done on this. Please look for economic articles in the next few months.

Kabir

5 years ago

Reply to AnAn

Yeah, English major here. I don’t run “multivariate regressions”. I don’t even know what those words mean nor do I care.

See I can frankly admit my own limitations….

Author

AnAn

5 years ago

Reply to Kabir

Kabir, IQ alone explains 40% or more of the variations in income. However running regressions with IQ as an explanatory variable remains controversial.

Kabir

5 years ago

Reply to Kabir

“IQ” is really racist. Provide everyone with the same educational opportunities and then see what happens. White kids (and Desi kids) can afford expensive college-prep and SAT tutors. Most African-American families can’t. There is the further question of whether someone who aces the SAT is really smart or whether they have just been taught how to take tests. And I say this as someone who didn’t do badly on the SAT myself.

We lived in Bethesda and our public school system had a lot of money for academics, choir, theater, etc. Just 10 miles away in DC proper, the schools have no money for anything. DC is a largely African-American city while the suburbs are largely White. This pattern holds across much of America. But schools are funded from property taxes, so obviously the rich areas will have more resources.

Author

AnAn

5 years ago

“I find your lack of respect for single mother headed households and LBTQ people kind of problematic.”

I support LBGTQ married couples choosing to have and raise children.

“If two gay men want to start a family why are you being judgmental about that?”
Many gay men have complained that Black Lives Matter is not supportive of gay married male couples raising children. Black Lives Matter–at least back in 2014–was very critical of men and fathers in general. Nowhere in their guidelines does the word “father” appear to this day.

Personally I am very supportive of married gay male couples raising children. I think it is very positive for adopted children.

“Also, some single mothers do a wonderful job of raising children while some traditional heterosexual two parent households are incredibly toxic environments.” This is true in specific circumstances. This said, please see:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOsrBF5qwBc
There is new research that living in a neighborhood with a large number of single mother households hurts social mobility more than living in a single mother household (which also damages socio-economic outcomes for children on average). We need a lot more research of this kind if the world is serious about reducing global poverty and increasing global material living standards.

By fighting against cisgendered married two parent families and to a lesser degree gay male married two parent families; I think Black Lives Matter is doing harm. President Obama and most African American respected elders agree with me on this. So did Martin Luther King Jr. when he was alive.

In 1900, about 10% of African American households were headed by a single mother and there was about a 10% divorce rate. Today 77% of African American households are headed by a single mother and the divorce rate is 76%. Is this a good thing?

Kabir

5 years ago

Reply to AnAn

Divorce is a very personal issue. A lot of black fathers are in prison because of the “war on drugs”.

I never claimed “Black Lives Matter” is perfect but they had a point regarding the disproportionate use of force by police against African Americans where they would not use force against Whites.

Author

AnAn

5 years ago

Reply to Kabir

Only a very small fraction of Americans in prison are in prison because of nonviolent drug crimes. America has a very large challenge with violent crimes.

sbarrkum

5 years ago

Reply to AnAn

AnAn you are surely joking when you say Only a very small fraction of Americans in prison are in prison because of nonviolent drug crimes.

After the passage of Reagan’s Anti-Drug Abuse Act in 1986, incarceration for non-violent offenses dramatically increased. The Act imposed the same five-year mandatory sentence on those with convictions involving crack as on those possessing 100 times as much powder cocaine.[39][44] This had a disproportionate effect on low-level street dealers and users of crack, who were more commonly poor blacks, Latinos, the young, and women.[45]

As of 2006, 49.3% of state prisoners, or 656,000 individuals, were incarcerated for non-violent crimes. As of 2008, 90.7% of federal prisoners, or 165,457 individuals, were incarcerated for non-violent offenses.[6]

By 2003, 58% of all women in federal prison were convicted of drug offenses.[47] Black and Hispanic women in particular have been disproportionately affected by the War on Drugs. Since 1986, incarceration rates have risen by 400% for women of all races, while rates for Black women have risen by 800%.

According to the American Civil Liberties Union, “Even when women have minimal or no involvement in the drug trade, they are increasingly caught in the ever-widening net cast by current drug laws, through provisions of the criminal law such as those involving conspiracy, accomplice liability, and constructive possession that expand criminal liability to reach partners, relatives and bystanders.”

Kabir

5 years ago

Reply to sbarrkum

Well said.

A lot of Black people go to jail for possession of marijuana. Which is something that White people rarely go to prison for. The “War on Drugs” is inherently racist.

sbarrkum

5 years ago

Reply to AnAn

AnAn, I get the impression that you are cocooned in a safe suburbia (quite possibly University town) and do not know anyone from grittier neighborhoods.

You really should read Linh Dinhs Postcards from End of America
http://www.unz.com/author/linh-dinh/

Author

AnAn

5 years ago

Reply to sbarrkum

The reference was to nonviolent drug crime rather than to nonviolent crime in general.

http://www.unz.com/author/linh-dinh/
I have seen this blog before and it has some nice articles. I love Vietnamese!

Was there an article in particular you were recommending?

Most Americans live in suburbia, rural America or affluent gentrified cities and are out of touch with tough inner city neighborhoods. This leads to considerable misunderstandings.

Not enough people live in rough inner city neighborhoods for them to affect national and state elections through their votes.

America is having a massive crime wave currently that is disproportionately hurting poor people. It is hard to find volunteers for service projects in dangerous neighborhoods or school teachers willing to teach in dangerous neighborhoods and skilled people willing to work in dangerous neighborhoods. Breaking this vicious cycle is one of America’s largest problems.

Just to give one example (see page 9 in the document or page 13 in the PDF):
https://openjustice.doj.ca.gov/downloads/pdfs/cd16.pdf
—In 2011, California had 6,792 rapes by force
—In 2016, California had 12,785 rapes by force; an increase of 88% in just five years

While I don’t have the granular data to prove it, I suspect “grittier neighborhoods” are seeing the brunt of the massive increase in violent crime.

+++++++++++++++++++++
Kabir wrote:
“A lot of Black people go to jail for possession of marijuana. Which is something that White people rarely go to prison for. The “War on Drugs” is inherently racist.”
Is there granular national data to demonstrate that blacks go to jail more for possession of marijuana than caucasions per incident that police legally find marijuana? I would be very curious to see it. I am not saying you are wrong. I am asking for data sets.

The congressional black caucus and African American leadership arguably pushed for the “War on Drugs” harder than any other major American constituency.

In my view we need to end most minimum or compulsory sentencing rules and give judges and police officers far greater flexibility in deciding how to punish people. For example in cases where spouses beat each other (most spousal beating is the wife beating the husband, but 60% to 75% of very violent beating is caused by the husband beating the wife) and the police are called. Or in cases of parent/children issues where judges, police officers and social workers need far more flexibility.

Kabir

5 years ago

Reply to sbarrkum

I don’t do data sets. Not that kind of person. But I’ve read that African-Americans caught with any kinds of drugs are punished more severely than White people caught with the same drugs. There were articles written on this and I’m sure the journalists who wrote them quoted some numbers somewhere (I glaze over when I see numbers–liberal arts major remember).

There is now a movement in many US states to decriminalize marijuana. That should see less Black people being sent to jail for non-violent crimes. Even in something like cocaine, the forms that mostly Black people use (crack) are punished more severely than the forms White people use. In dramas, it’s always the White guys in the club doing powdered cocaine from the dollar bills and nothing seems to happen to them at least as far as the law is concerned.

I have mixed feelings about being lax on marijuana and certainly am against hard drugs. Just noting that sentencing is racially disproportionate.

Dain

5 years ago

Reply to sbarrkum

The drug war got off the ground with significant support from the black community, specifically poorer blacks. It’s a little known history that’s been buried. https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/black-silent-majority-michael-javen-fortner/1121714088

“Michael Javen Fortner shows in this eye-opening account that these punitive policies also enjoyed the support of many working-class and middle-class blacks, who were angry about decline and disorder in their communities. Black Silent Majority uncovers the role African Americans played in creating today’s system of mass incarceration…”

Poorer whites have also been more supportive of draconian drug laws than higher class whites. Criticism of tough drug laws has a “class problem,” somewhat funnily enough.

anan

5 years ago

Sbarrkum

http://www.drugwarfacts.org/node/3713

15% are nominally in jail for drugs in state prisons. But note that many of them are guilty of many other crimes and drugs are what was chosen to lock them up.

An article on crime is planned.

Author

AnAn

5 years ago

hoipolloi, I heard a lot about the book “Roots” and saw the ending of “Roots” but did not watch the beginning or read the book.

Kunta Kinte’s situation is highly unusual historically from what I can gather. Kunta Kinte was an African elite. Few African slaves were (other than those taken prisoner by rival nations, sects or tribes). I would think that muslim slave owners sold their slaves to foreigners from inventory. And in many cases nonmuslim Africans sold their slaves from inventory. Most slaves appeared to have lived in multi-generational slavery before being sold to the Americas, although I would love to learn more about this.

I wonder why Kunta Kinte was not sold for ransom back to his own family?

I would also be curious to know more about Arab ships that transported slaves and physical goods to the Americas.

I really liked “12 years a slave” and recommend everyone watch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z02Ie8wKKRg

Kabir:
Please see:
http://www.blackpast.org/primarywest/utah-slave-code-1852
[In Utah any owner who had sex with a slave automatically had the free the slave.]
There were miscegenation laws in some states that banned slave owners from sexual relations with their slave woman. (in reality the sons and young family members were more likely to do this than slave owners). Plus there was a lot of social censor from extended family, churches and social circles if someone suspected a caucasion boy or owner of illicit relations with slaves.

There were many free blacks living in the south, many of which themselves owned slaves. I wonder how many of these free blacks had caucasion ancestors. Perhaps many of the mixed free blacks were freed because of their fathers or grandfathers or great grandfathers. Marriage between Caucasians and blacks was common in the south before the civil war despite social pressure. I wonder how many of the blacks who married caucasions had caucasion ancestry themselves.

There was a class of slave called “fancy maids” that were sold to be sophisticated concubines. They were extremely expensive and were sold to the richest families. This would be an example of what Kabir is talking about.

Kabir is also right that despite laws and informal social codes of miscegenation; these were often flouted in practice. Much the way in practice many slave owner mistresses and slave owner children educated their slaves against the law. Often these educated and very talented slaves were deeply trusted parts of the extended family.

Another heavily censored and criticized practice was to “free” old slaves. This was considered dishonorable and immoral because the slave owner owed the slave a minimal retirement for a long life of service. But this too sometimes happened.

In 1865, all slaves were freed. In practice many slaves insisted on remaining with their owners out of familial affection. Many former slaves felt compelled to stay and look after the widows and daughters of their owners who had died in the civil war. Many caucasion woman in the south after the civil war lacked husbands, fathers, uncles, brothers, sons and nephews.

Many older slaves felt outraged in 1865 because they expected their owners to provide for them.

It is very interesting to read accounts of former slaves who were freed. Some slaves had horrendous experiences with their master, master’s family.

There are also many accounts of male slaves being sexually abused by male members of owner’s family or by female slave owners (yes this later part surprised me).

Kabir

5 years ago

Reply to AnAn

I don’t know about Utah. But you just read novels coming out of the Black experience (Toni Morrison for example) and you learn that raping your slaves was fairly common across the American South.

There is also a memoir called “Incidents in the Life of a Slave Girl” which I skimmed long ago. Horrifying stuff.