Open Thread – 09/19/2020 – Brown Pundits

The comments are open(ish).

Finished India in the Persianate Age. This was a much more fluidly written book from Eaton than other stuff I’ve read from him, probably because the Mughal narrative “writes itself.” Recommended.

Probably will take reader advice and focus more on “primary sources” from now on. Though finding good translations is always an issue then…

Also, check out the podcast with Matt Yglesias. And another one with Anand Kadali on hunger in India.

170 thoughts on “Open Thread – 09/19/2020 – Brown Pundits”

  1. Interesting.

    “… one of the conditions set by the World Bank-funded tribunal for international disputes was that Pakistan furnish an irrevocable bank guarantee amounting to 25 per cent of the penalty, which the tribunal had awarded, from a reputable international bank based outside the country.

    The source explained that Pakistan would have to furnish 25 per cent of the $4.08bn penalty as guarantee.”

  2. In the past many posts I keep coming across references of commentators here being bullied in school as kids, sometimes even physically assaulted. How common is this in America? Does this depend on how good/bad the neighborhood is, I guess wealthier migrant children in richer zip code areas are less prone to this compared to those from bad neighborhoods? How much of a factor did race factor into the bullying? Is this personal adolescent history among the reasons I occasionally find resentful comments by first-generation migrants about not being accepted?

    1. Haven’t been bullied but I have gotten into some confrontations, all of which happened when I was in Indian schools.

  3. Does this depend on how good/bad the neighborhood is, I guess wealthier migrant children in richer zip code areas are less prone to this compared to those from bad neighborhoods?

    physical attacks are much less common in wealthy/suburban locales. i grew up in a rural area, not poor, not rich, and physical fights were not ubiquitous, but they happened. rare in suburbs from what i can tell from talking to ppl.

    Is this personal adolescent history among the reasons I occasionally find resentful comments by first-generation migrants about not being accepted?

    it depends on interacting factors e.g., are they just are a resentful loser? are they sensitive? etc. if you are a fat nerdy asian kid you are gonna get picked on, but asianness is really not that big of a deal. if you were fat and nerdy… in some cases there is a racial/religious angle. but i don’t think it’s systematic persecution, it’s people finding vulnerable people and exploiting them.

    i’m able ot make friends so i didn’t have many issues, but i did get jumped on by cowboys at a dance (dancing with a cute white girl). it was racial. but i’m fine. life throws a lot at you.

    some ppl are much more resentful in same circumstances. it’s their personality. you can’t generalize

    1. Were you able to fend off those cowboys?
      I went to Catholic primary and I experienced religious bigotry more than racial since there were other non white classmates but all Catholic. Racial fights are indeed rare in suburbs. I’ve seen only one growing up. I did have one interesting experience. During medical school, just before noon conference I entered through the side entrance to get to the back since I knew pizza would be there. A group of female students (2 Indian American, 4 white: 2 Jewish, 1 Canadian, 1 white American who was married to Afro Caribbean man and had biracial daughter) were having ‘girl talk’. Boring stuff but then I knew what it’s like to be a fly in the wall. They started talking about dating and discussed if they’d ever date a Indian guy. And we elevated voices said, “ NOOOO! Omg”. Then one of them noticed me in the back eating pizza and their faces turned bright red. 5 of them never spoke to me ever since. Maybe this is considered microagression. Months later I had a pulmonology rotation and one of them (White Jewish from California very cute/hot) was my partner. Her ex boyfriend at the time was Paul Walker from Fast and the Furious (I learned interesting things about that guy). Anyway she privately told me that she thought I was cute and would have gone out with me if I’d asked. The point of the story is brown people shouldn’t take negative experiences too seriously because sometimes people are just being stupid rather than racist and if you don’t lighten up you could miss opportunities like I did.

        1. Paul Walker isnt that good-looking, even by Bwood standards. By American standards, he’s like your average Valley boy/High school Jock. Not exactly James Bond suave and debonair either. There are South Asians, Latinos, and MENA men that are much better looking than Walker. Of course, many Euro men also look better than him as well. And by South Asians, I dont necessarily mean just NW South Asians and Pashtuns, but other men from diverse extractions throughout the region as well. Same goes for Latinos and Hispanics, even the non-White ones have plenty of lookers among their ranks.

          But the point is, White Americans dont possess some special aura that makes them that much more attractive than all non-Whites. My sister is your below-average NW Ror/Jatt and she gets hit on by predominantly White Chads/Jocks to no avail. She is far more attracted to the swarthy, tall-dark-and-handsome Mediterranean look that one rarely sees in most White enclaves around the U.S, with the exception of places like the Tri-State area and parts of the West Coast. As a result, she ends up dating men that aren’t WASP or even Western/Northern European, and mostly MENA or White Latinos with Med ancestry. Owing to the lack of Rors she doesnt date around in the desi community, but has found many folks back in the homeland rather attractive. Cultural issues stymie any lasting attraction in the aforementioned case, but its clear phenotype is not to blame.

          South Asians are not born with some deformity that makes them undesirable, people just havent been exposed to the diversity of South Asia, as much as they have, to say, Latin America and MENA countries. More exposure and education is needed to do away with such juvenile nonsense as the conversation alluded to in the medical school group above. FWIW, I’ve never heard such conversations in my private life, and I’ve been around plenty of rather bigoted people (without knowing about it. Until they opened their mouth). Most people dont have such conversations anyway.

    2. I feel like Razib is a massive outlier in his views on this matter. I’ve talked to a lot of Indians in my time, some level of disillusionment is the norm.

      I think most of it is attributable to disappointed expectations (the failure of race-blind civic nationalism to successfully challenge race as a way of organizing society). That said, I’ve noticed a definite correlation between “disillusionment” and “having lived in the South.” So a chunk of it is probably a reaction to actual racism.


      To Razib’s other point: a few months ago, I was sitting through a resident forum where a chief resident raised the issue of a Black Female intern’s (alleged) rudeness and misbehavior. This surprised me, because the intern was somewhat strident and aggressive, but not a bad person.

      Then I realized what was going on. She was a Black Female, and because she had one personality trait (strident) that matched up with stereotypes people have of Black females, people just filled in the rest of her personality for her.

      I’m involved in residency admissions as well. Basically, behind closed doors there’s a universally negative reaction to “Asian STEMBros [terminology mine].” I’ve learned that this is true for admissions at other places (eg college) as well. It’s the same issue: member of a racial minority has one trait that matches the stereotype, and people slot in the rest of his traits for him, which redounds against him.

      Conversely, if you go against the stereotype, you get a lot of credit. This is how Barack Obama got on the map: he wasn’t a libidinous thug (eg Trump), he was a coolheaded, cerebral man. If an Asian man acted like Obama, people would have written him off in seconds.

      So for people who are racial minorities, I encourage them to think about what stereotypes are of their race, and how they can be counteracted. This will be different depending on race. Indians can get away with being aggressive and strident in a way that would get a Black person censured. Conversely, Blacks can be measured and cerebral in a way that would get an Indian person derided.

      1. HMB, the browns you know who experienced racism in the south may be self-selected “refugees” and their perspectives might reflect that. I grew up in a smallish place in the south before going north for college. Felt the browns from nyc suburbs had it worse than us by far (lots of bullying by ethnic whites). In fairness my brown childhood best friend now long settled in SF kind of plays up the southern racism experience, we all create different narratives for whatever reasons. I still think the south changed a hell of a lot in the last 50 years and the general warmth of the people might supersede the late start they had in reckoning with their prejudices.

  4. I prefer physical fights over passive-aggressive bullshit which is common where I live. In the old days, boys would just fight it out 1 vs 1 and have it settled. Today you can’t even punch a bully without getting into trouble yourself. So bullies have adapted and now do passive-aggressive sniping and trying to freeze people out. This shift was not so evident when I was growing up. There was still a “boys will be boys” attitude, but I’ve noticed it among people younger than me. It’s a more feminine form of bullying you could say.

    I’m not saying physical fights are good per se. I’m just saying that sometimes a fight can ‘clear the air’ and not fester and making it toxic for months on end. More generally, I’ve never understood why we as a society take physical abuse far more serious than psychological abuse, especially as the latter can be much more damaging long-term.

  5. Santosh Mehrotra had a great interview on the Indian economy. The interview is from July this year, but every answer works just as well today.

    What I appreciate about him is that he is slamming not just the ruling party but also many of the Congress-aligned economists. He’s very lukewarm about neoliberalism and has a heterodox mindset. So much of the economic debate in India is still trapped in the mantra of “land, labour reform”. Even though the evidence for those factors holding India back is flimsy at best. His different perspective is a breath of fresh air.

  6. I got pushed around physically. But that’s because I was small and a late bloomer. I’d have gotten bullied in India too.

    Once I lifted and basically went through puberty, life changed a lot. I realized the power of appearance much better.

  7. Lockdown has enabled me to really get through my reading backlog to the point I actually need to get more books. There was one book a few years back on the history of India and the Indian ocean by a male Indian author that made some waves. Would anyone know the book I am talking about. Apologies for the vague description.

      1. His work i would put in the average category. Almost all books in India are ideologically motivated whether fiction or otherwise. So he is not that far outside the pale.

        Though the book itself has some new information which i enjoyed, so there is that.

    1. I agree wholeheartedly. Hindu RW need learn to speak woke to power to win globally.

      They suck at the wokeness game. Lol.

      1. What ? Isn’t hindu right wing already the biggest woke in town.

        BTW what’s true of truschke is true for Eaton as well. White imposition and all.

        1. Their impulses tend to wokeness, rather than liberty.

          But they are not skilled at executing their wokeness, at least in so far as English. They need to hire that Saiket guy or someone like that.

          Meanwhile the Indian National Congress needs to stop nominating unfit political dynasts at the helm.

  8. David Reich once again reiterates to Frontline that IVC genes are the largest contributor of source to almost all Indians today.

    He did the same last year. I mean, is a denouement coming? How hard is it to make the logical leap that IVC must also be the largest contributor to languages as well? No linguist worth his salt is processing this to ask the correct questions.

    1. PIE does not have horses — as demonstrated in a new genetics paper. Steppe Theory is pure propaganda now.

        1. What you say is true: I did indulge in a little hyperbole. If scholars can convincingly demonstrate that out of Steppe can happen, I will reconsider. After all, we do have mysteries of PIE and R1a left to be resolved. I will be more neutral in the future.

          My view: AMT can be true, but I have always maintained that it should be before Harappa.

          1. “..AMT can be true, but….. it should be before Harappa”

            This can indeed be a possibility that will harmonize elements of OIT and AMT. But what if R* and it’s earliest branches were to be found in the area around Bihar, Nepal and Bengal?

            The Baikal findings imply that R* went to Siberia from Burma in that direction. But there is no reason to discount that a group could have entered the Indian subcontinent as well.

            Now we add a third change –

            1. The original R1a entered India not from the Northwest but the East and NorthEast. They established themselves in the Gangetic belt.

            2. From here they move in all directions – including to the Indus Valley and then onto the Steppes. But before mixing with the other Indian AASI bearers.

            3. Then a second wave of mixing occurs within India.

            This will explain why the Saraswati is mentioned first in the Rgveda (old books) instead of the Indus. And also why Indra rides a elephant instead of a horse!

          2. indians seem to use more hyperbole in English. i think it’s cultural difference. i think Americans from the south are kind of the same too vs those from the north (more hyperbole)

      1. Inferences:
        1. Hittites did not possess domestic horses; no requirement of horses for PIE now.
        2. Around the end of the third millennium, domestic horses in Anatolia appear suddenly.
        Horses should, therefore, be introduced by either Kassites or Mitanni.
        The only reason to exclude India is gone; this does not confirm that it is the homeland, though. According to me, at least — if not more — Harappans were proto Sanskrit speakers.
        The only reason for the existence of Steppe Theory is over.

        1. the earliest evidence of domestication is the from the steppe. i’m really confused. near eastern indo-europeans didn’t have it, therefore the steppe is ruled out?

          (also, looks like there were several domestications; the botai were likely not indo-european and domesticated it)

          1. @Razib


            This is the paper. It says no domestication happened in Anatolia or Southern Caucasus. They were introduced at the end of the third millennium B.C. or 4100 ybp

            Now linguistic theory holds that the earliest to leave from the so called PIE homeland were the Anatolian branch with Hittite and Luwian. And supposedly they carried the IE word for horse to those regions in the middle of the 4th millennium B.C..

            This paper destroys that theory in 2 ways

            1. PIE has words for domesticated horses like bay steeds with emphasis on coat colours that is only seen in livestock management practices. Impossible to do that for wild horses.

            2. So if Hittite and Luwian have these words, they cannot predate 4100 ybp. That kind of destroys the PIE sequence.

            If I think about it, it even destroys the concept of PIE in a subtle way!!! ? good find @timepaas

          2. @Ugra
            You have written a very nice reason; but there is one more: agriculture. That is why Steppe as PIE homeland does not work now. A lot of PIE words related to horse will have to be thrown away — as you mentioned.

            @Razib Khan
            I have done some more research on IE homeland. Should I submit a peer reviewed paper? I don’t wish IE homeland problem to affect my career right now though; it will take a lot of time investment too.

          3. @Ugra @timepaas

            I remember reading in David Anthony’s book (2007) that the Anatolian languages were pre-PIE; i.e., descending from a sister of PIE. So the fact that Anatolian doesn’t share a word for horse with the PIE languages has been well-known to linguists (and PIE theorists) for a long time, and their theories have always taken it into account.

            So hold your hurrahs.

        2. @Numinous
          PIE is taken to include Anatolian. I am really surprised that you contest Anatolian as part of PIE.

          From wiki:
          Phases of Proto-Indo-European

          According to Anthony, the following terminology may be used:[2]

          Archaic PIE for “the last common ancestor of the Anatolian and non-Anatolian IE branches”;
          Early, or Post-Anatolian, PIE for “the last common ancestor of the non-Anatolian PIE languages, including Tocharian”;
          Late PIE for “the common ancestor of all other IE branches”.

  9. @Razib

    Do you think an Indian American who hasn’t converted to Christianity has a chance of being elected as President or high office in any of three branches of government from either party?

  10. If I think about it, it even destroys the concept of PIE in a subtle way!!! ? good find @timepaas

    stop using the word ‘destroys’

    i know indians like to exaggerate in their usage of language, but it annoys me a lot. you don’t want me annoyed that much

  11. Now linguistic theory holds that the earliest to leave from the so called PIE homeland were the Anatolian branch with Hittite and Luwian. And supposedly they carried the IE word for horse to those regions in the middle of the 4th millennium B.C..

    motivated reasoning is strong in you.

    i tolerate JR because though i think he’s very wrong he brings a lot of erudition and subtlety in his arguments so my responses actually make me learn and thing harder. in contrast you sound like an idiot when you pop off on this stuff. you lack foundation in understanding i have hardly any understanding what you’re getting at. i guess it’s OK on the open thread. but read lightly or I’ll just ban you if you annoy me enough.

    1. @Razib, Here’s another go –

      1. Mainstream Linguistic theory posits that the Anatolian IE branch (Hittite, Luwian and a few others) were the first to break away from the Urheimat. Somewhere between 4th millennium and mid of 3rd millennium.

      2. Hittite possesses similar roots for the horse and associated livestock management practices – like foaling, breaking in (halter) and specifically colour coats. More importantly, it shares these with other IE families – Iranian and of course Sanskrit. Rgveda has the most widest vocab for horses in rituals, usage and breeding.

      3. Now the only way for all these separated languages to have common roots is Urheimat. Hittite and other Anatolian languages do not have a lot of anachronisms and the developments of the other branches. Therefore they sit at the top of the outbound waves – the first to break out from the Urheimat where horses were common.

      4. Now this finding totally falsifies the date – they did not have domestication until the end of the third millennium.

      So one of the underlying pillars of IE linguistic theory has to be discarded – which one?

      1. Anatolian branch was not the first wave. But then why do they not share some of the later isoglosses?

      2. There were no horses in the Urheimat when Anatolian branch broke away. But how do they common words for horse and it’s practices with other IE languages?

      3. The shared words are due to trade and contacts, not due to linguistic memories from a shared past. Just like the word for elephant. Indians were the source (ibha). But who were the original domesticators of the horse? This one is the most dangerous to AMT as it removes the centrality of the horse to the Aryan expansion.

      All 3 explanations are interlinked, something in mainstream linguistic theory has to give way to explain the new paper.

      1. All 3 explanations are interlinked, something in mainstream linguistic theory has to give way to explain the new paper.

        there is no such thing as mainstream linguistic theory. there are huge debates between those who rely on historical linguistics, and those who rely on phylogenetic methods.

        your comments reflect wrestling with a strawman. the theory and models are not nearly as airtight as you presuppose.

        1. @Razib

          Sorry, it’s not a strawman. Witzel has published umpteen peer reviewed pieces stating that IVC cannot be IE speakers as they do not exhibit any horse artifacts such as seals, toys, drawings and bones.

          The connection of the horse with IE speakers has been absolute over the last 50 years. In his book, David Anthony writes with precision that horse riding IE speakers came to Anatolia and West Asia in 3500 BC. Guess he has to rewrite now.

          This is the second animal genetics paper that negates consensus. The first one was the introduction of the Indian Zebu to West Asia in 2000 BC. This is the second one – again coincidentally (or not) in the same period.

          We have a mystery population introducing foreign cattle and domesticated horses to West Asia and Anatolia in the beginning of the 2nd millennium.

          1. Witzel has published umpteen peer reviewed pieces stating that IVC cannot be IE speakers as they do not exhibit any horse artifacts such as seals, toys, drawings and bones.


            just because one person has a bunch of peer-reviewed articles that does not mean that that person is mainstream consensus!

            witzel is a serious person. but witzel is not the authority on everything (i never paid that much attention to him because i knew his munda argument for IVC was wrong for genetic reasons, though i think he’s modified that).

            The connection of the horse with IE speakers has been absolute over the last 50 years. In his book, David Anthony writes with precision that horse riding IE speakers came to Anatolia and West Asia in 3500 BC. Guess he has to rewrite now.

            colin renfrew proposed that indo-european spread with anatolian farmers starting 10,000 years ago you fucking moron. i happen to think the pontic steppe theory is right, but you are so stupid you don’t even know that between 1980 and the early 2000s the antolian thesis had a lot of support (renfrew now acknowledges it is wrong).

            here is a last gasp of the Anatolian theory supported by phylogenetic linguistics (a field you seem totally ignorant exists, despite all its flaws):

            In his book, David Anthony writes with precision that horse riding IE speakers came to Anatolia and West Asia in 3500 BC. Guess he has to rewrite now.

            give me a quote. i read the book and this is not what i remember.

            you are probably just stupid, so i may not respond to your further comments. reading your comments makes my head hurt because of the 100-proof stupidity.

          2. David Anthony – Chapter 4 (Page 43), also Page 42 for the terminal date. Then Chapter 10 (Page 200 to 222).

            Witzel is quoted so many times and so extensively in the context of IVC papers, it very hard not to consider him as the paterfamilias of Western Indology. Very surprising to see you dismiss him. The “no horse = no IE” argument was practically invented by him. If we apply that to West Asia/Anatolia, then there were no IE speakers before 2100 BC there. It’s rather inconvenient for David Anthony’s conclusions.

          3. Witzel argued Harappan seals doesn’t represent a language at all and they are like heraldic symbols. Let’s not take Witzel as authority on all linguistics stuff.

  12. I have done some more research on IE homeland. Should I submit a peer reviewed paper? I don’t wish IE homeland problem to affect my career right now though; it will take a lot of time investment too.

    no one gives a shit about this in America, so it won’t hurt your career. 🙂

    1. Watched the two latest uploads (for like a minute or two each, skimming) and her English seems to be good enough

  13. Ten inventions of Nikola Tesla that changed the world!

    (Google translated)

    The most famous Serb believed that all scientific research should be focused on the betterment and progress of the human race, and not on making a profit. We represent those without whom we could not imagine a modern world.

    Very little is known about the real merits and legacy of the Serbian genius Nikola Tesla, as well as about the pressures he had from American corporations, government agencies and secret services. However, today, 77 years after his death, Nikola Tesla and his work are finally beginning to attract the attention they deserve, and his works are beginning to be seriously discussed.

    While the world public wonders whether he was a genius or a weirdo, little is known that Tesla was ruthlessly persecuted by the top of the energy industry, especially by Thomas Edison, whom children in American schools teach was a genius. Also, little is known to our public that after his death on January 7, 1943, the US government broke into his apartment and laboratory and confiscated all his scientific research. None of them have ever been made public.

    We present you 10 (out of 700) inventions that Nikola Tesla, the man who gave to the world.

    1) Alternating current

    That’s how it all started … With this discovery, Tesla raised a lot of dust at the “World Expo” in 1893 in Chicago. After that, an open war began between the visions of Edison and Tesla about how electricity should be produced and distributed.

    To demonstrate the fatality of Tesla’s discovery, Edison killed animals in public with alternating current. It should be mentioned that Edison, in the end, gave the world an electric chair.

    Tesla showed Edison that alternating current was completely safe by transmitting it through his body to turn on the light bulb. The war between Tesla and Edison culminated in 1893, after a decade of murky business moves, stolen ideas and the annulment of a patent by which Edison and his colleagues tried to destroy Tesla and destroy his discoveries.

    – I don’t care that they steal my ideas, I’m worried because they don’t have any of their own – Tesla’s response to various subterfuges and intrigues was recorded.

    2) Lighting

    Of course, Tesla did not invent electric lighting, but he discovered how light can best be distributed and used. Tesla used fluorescent lights in its laboratory for 40 years before they were “industrially” patented. Experts believe that Tesla’s coils are probably his most controversial and most successful work, and that is the invention that the industry most wanted to cover up and prevent from being used in public.

    3) X-rays

    Electromagnetic and ionizing radiation was often explored in the late 19th century, but Tesla re-examined the full spectrum of that piece of science and discovered everything from Kirlian photography, which is able to capture the aura (energy field around people and things) used in medicine today. diagnostics. In the field of radiation research, Tesla made many discoveries, all thanks to the personal belief that everything we need can be found in the nature around us, we just need to understand the universe in which we live.

    In other words, Tesla believed that all scientific research should be focused on the betterment and progress of the human race, and not on making a profit.

    4) Radio devices

    At first, the discovery of radio devices was attributed to Guillermo Marconi, and most of the public believed that he invented radio receivers as we know them today.

    However, the American Supreme Court annulled Marconi’s patent in 1943, when it was proven that Tesla invented and used radio years before him. Radio signals are just another component of remote control that Tesla demonstrated at the presentation of its remote-controlled ship in 1897!

    5) Remote control

    The present invention was created as a continuation of research on radio. Patent No. 613809 is the first remote-controlled product, called a “remote-controlled ship” whose work was demonstrated by Tesla in 1898. It used a pair of powerful batteries, radio signals controlled by a series of switches, an electric motor to power the ship, and a series of lights on the ship that were powered by batteries. This technology was not used for a long time after Tesla, but it shows how Tesla’s ideas were used by the army.

  14. Cont.

    6) Electric motor

    Tesla greatly improved the electric motor, which was popularized a few years ago in the form of an electric car that bears his name.

    Suffice it to say that Tesla invented an electric motor with a rotating magnetic field that liberated the human race from the oil industry even though many did not realize it. Tesla’s electric motor is found in industrial machines, household appliances, water pumps, electrical appliances …

    7) Robotics

    Tesla’s advanced scientific mind led him to the idea that all living beings are driven by external impulses.

    – With every thought and deed, I have shown, and I show every day, that I am a type of automaton that is endowed with the possibility of movement, to which I react through external stimuli – said Nikola Tesla, who was born the concept of a robot.

    Nevertheless, the element of humanity remained present, because Tesla himself said that human replicas (robots) would have limits, such as growth and creation of offspring. Regardless of the shortcomings of the idea, Tesla, with all his intelligence, accepted that something like that could be done.

    8) Laser

    Tesla’s discovery and invention of the laser is one of the best examples of good and evil assembled in the human mind. Lasers have been transformed into surgical applications in the best possible way and because of them we have different types of digital media today.

    On the other hand, that same laser is used today in defense systems that are deadly. In any case, the present invention has great potential for development in both directions, both positive and negative.

    9) 10) Wireless communication and unlimited free energy

    These two notions are inseparable, because they are the last step of the elite in power because – what is the use of energy if the government cannot control it?

    Tesla built a tower with which he used the natural frequencies of our universe to transmit data, including a wide range of information through images, voice messages and text.

    1. They should form Khalistan in Pak Punjab and Tamils should return to Bruhai territory in Pak and from Dravida Naidu. All will be well then. Let the saffrons rot in the “mainland” 😉

  15. @Razib
    I was looking for genetic data for “Bunt” community of Costal Karnataka (Udupi, Mangalore). I came across your old blog post, which does have the data for “Bunt” although the main article is about another community.

    I was wondering if you could link to the paper which provides more information about the “K_Bunt” population in your article.

    “Bunt” community is unique from what I have observed. They are a land owning community whose name literally means “Warrior”. Aishwarya Rai, Shilpa Shetty, Sunil Shetty are from the “Bunt” community.

      1. Thank you,

        Ok, the sample size is quite small. I suspect “Bunts” contain both populations with higher South Indian component and another population which has a bit higher North Indian component.

        This might have occurred because other native populations got incorporated as warriors. (Or I could be wrong)

  16. Just listened to the MY 1B podcast. I burst out laughing at the iSteve bit come to life when MY went into his bit about his grandparents getting excluded from the country club.

  17. @ Francesco Borgetti

    Let me refer again to your recent comment, especially the language tree diagram. I think that BPundits (both, amt and oit) are still courteous to comment.

    There is one so-called dilemma, what is the Proto Indo-Iranian language at 2000BC which is at the root of the diagram. The major obstacle is the key history falsification that Serbs migrated to Balkan from unspecified location which also has a significant impact on SA history. Considering that we resolved the genetics ‘issue’ we are moving to discuss linguistics, mythology, ethnology and toponyms.

    I will provide some brief linguistic facts (this area is also heavily falsified with artificially invented terms which contribute to the confusion) but before that I will provide few background details.

    For example, indigenous people in Mexico were 98% decimated and only 2% of them remained. However, there are many of their words remained and became a part of Spanish. In Balkan, many tribes lived before alleged Slavic migration (e.g. Illyrians, Thracians- the most populous people in the world after Hindus, Moesians, Dalmatians, Liburnians, Dardanians, etc, etc). However, there is no ONE word from the previous population which mysteriously disappeared from the face of the earth together with their graves that remained in Serbian language. Probably, because they were the same people, i.e. the migration did not exist and there is also not one record about this.

    Wiki is slightly improving and let see their text (in the next comment) about Illyro-Thracians Roman Emperors. Is it possible that after so many Emperors not one word remined from their people in newly arrived Serbian language?

  18. WIKI about Serbian Roman Emperors:

    The Illyrian emperors were a group of Roman emperors during the Crisis of the Third Century who hailed from the region of Illyricum (the modern Western Balkans), and were raised chiefly from the ranks of the Roman army (whence they are ranked among the so-called “barracks emperors”).[1] In the 2nd and 3rd centuries, the Illyricum and the other Danubian provinces (Raetia, Pannonia, Moesia) held the largest concentration of Roman forces (12 legions, up to a third of the total army), and were a major recruiting ground. The advance of these low-born provincials was facilitated by a major shift in imperial policy from the time of Gallienus (260–268) on, when higher military appointments ceased to be exclusively filled by senators. Instead, professional soldiers of humble origin who had risen through the ranks to the post of primus pilus (which also entailed admission to the equestrian order) were placed as heads of the legions and filled the army’s command structure.

    The historical period of the Illyrian emperors proper begins with Claudius Gothicus in 268 and continues in 284 with the rise of Diocletian and the institution of the Tetrarchy.[2] This period was very important in the history of the Empire, since it represents the recovery from the Crisis of the Third Century, a long period of usurpations and military difficulties. All of the Illyrian emperors were trained and able soldiers, and they recovered most of the provinces and positions lost by their predecessors, including Gaul and the eastern provinces. Men of Illyrian or Thraco-Dacian origin however continued to be prominent in the Empire throughout the 4th century and beyond.

    The emperors’ list is the following:
    • Decius – ruled AD 249–251
    • Hostilianus – ruled AD 251
    • Claudius II “Gothicus” – ruled AD 268–270 (either from Illyricum or Moesia Superior, Thrace)
    • Quintillus – ruled AD 270
    • Aurelian – ruled AD 270–275 (either from Dacia ripensis, Dacia or Illyricum)
    • Probus – ruled AD 276–282
    • Diocletian – ruled AD 284–305
    • Maximianus “Herculius” – ruled AD 286–305
    • Constantine I – ruled AD 306–337
    • Constantius II – ruled AD 337-361
    • Jovian – ruled AD 363–364
    • Valentinianus I – ruled AD 364–375
    • Valens – ruled AD 364–378
    • Gratian – ruled AD 375–383
    • Valentinianus II – ruled AD 375–392
    • Marcianus – ruled AD 450–457 (either Illyricum or Moesia, Thrace)
    • Anastasius I – ruled AD 491–518
    • Justin I – ruled AD 518–527 (either Thracian or Illyrianborn in Moesia)
    • Justinian I – ruled AD 527–565

  19. What WIKI says about the languages spoken by above Emperors:

    …The languages spoken by the Illyrian tribes are nowadays an extinct
    and poorly attested Indo-European languages and though it is not clear whether the languages belonged to the centum or the satem group…..

    ….The Thracian language is an extinct and poorly attested language,
    spoken in ancient times in Southeast Europe by the Thracians. The linguistic affinities of the Thracian language are poorly understood, but it is generally agreed that it was an Indo-European language with satem features…..

    ….Dacian is an extinct language, generally believed to be Indo-European, that was spoken in the Carpathian region in antiquity. The language was probably extinct by the 7th century AD….

    ….Dalmatian is an extinct Romance language that was spoken in the Dalmatia region…

    Etc, etc….

    It is interesting that, according to WIKI, for eg. the Thracian language, spoken by Justinian (and by the most populous people in the world after Hindu), completely disappeared 100 years after his death so as all Thracians themselves.

    1. There are a couple other interesting details regarding alleged Slavic migration to Balkan:

      • Romanians (i.e. Dacians) were indigenous people in Balkan but they had the same genetics as Slavics (Serbs) who were located 3000 km away and never had previous contact.
      • Bulgarians came to Balkan (today’s Romania) before Serbs and took the language from indigenous people in today’s Bulgaria. This language is identical as the language of Serbs who came later to Balkan. Amazing, isn’t it?
      • Let see the alleged migration from the logistics point of view in the next comment.

    2. RE: Migration – a logistic dimension

      The official history says that Slavics (Serbs) came from at least 3000 km away. Because of the lack of roads, marshlands, big rivers without bridges, Carpathians, forests, etc. it is fair to assume that Slavics could not depart before the end of the May to reach the destination in September before the winter. It means that they needed at least 120 days (definitely more) travelling 25 km/day (probably less) with ox carts and families. If one family had 5 members and required one kg/member of food, it means that one family had to prepare 600 kg of food. Let ignore the fact how they organised the synchronised departure from large (still unknown) area without internet.

      When they reached the Balkan after crossing Carpathians, they had to build winter houses and wait for spring. Which food they had for the whole winter? If we assume that they found free and fertile land they had to wait at least July to get some new food. What was their food in a period Sep-July? We could see that Romans had 1/3 of their army (12 legions) located in former Yugoslavia but they haven’t noticed incomers. What was their number if they covered the whole Yugoslavia and displaced locals (probably hundreds of thousands)? What’s happened with locals and their graves? If they crossed through Romania, how no one noticed such number of people passing? If they crossed through Hungary (Hungarians came in 896), who lived in Hungary? Why they abandoned the most fertile land in Pannonia and continued several hundreds of km to Herzegovina, Dalmatia, Adriatic islands, areas with a moon landscape and without agricultural land??

      After all above mentioned, only those with strong phobia (and fobia), who sounds as morons, can state that Serbs came to Balkan in the 7th cAC.

      I hope that all previous comments weren’t wasted time and, in the following comments, we can go back without distraction on the main discussion track about SA history, languages, mythology, toponyms.

    3. I remember one BP podcast where one Indian researcher, who works in a German Institute, is doing a research of Bactrian language accents and how some sounds were pronounced 4000 years or so ago. I am not expert in this, it sounds fantastic to me but probably scientifically possible to do.

      Here, we have the Illyrian language, spoken since before Odyssey (who was an Illyrian), by dozens of Roman Emperors and elite Roman legions (1/3 of Roman army) which geographically occupied former Yugoslavia and which suddenly disappeared overnight 1300 years ago, together with all these people, without leaving one their word in the descendant language and for which we don’t know even if it belonged to the centum or the satem group…??

      How someone can be such moron to believe in this?


    Why social media isn’t really the real villain of this age

    “The “ethicists” of every era have always whined about the way of the world, and about how no one has time for the wonderful art of the whiner.

    At the very start of the documentary, the heroes say or imply that the tech industry is not evil by design. But soon the documentary appears to realize that a successful story requires heroes, and heroes require villains. So it sets out to define the villains—the social media companies and Google and others whose products have intoxicated the world.

    But then Netflix, which streams this documentary, is even more addictive than social media. Without this streaming service and the transmission of its existence by word-of-mouth on social media, the documentary would have been doomed. Hypocrisy in good people is known as “irony”

    “How do you wake up from the matrix?” a good guy in the documentary asks. Some people think that just because they can ask this question, it means they themselves are not part of the matrix.”


    Who’s playing the Taiwan card in India-China tensions, Modi or the RSS?

    “In the Indian diaspora in the US, influential Hindu cadre bases built around Sangh Parivar groups since the 1970s raised funds for the 2014 and 2019 elections that Modi won by landslides. They also organised campaign events for him in New York’s Madison Square garden and a “Howdy Modi” event in Texas.

    Occasionally, the groups’ influence even spills into the domestic politics of their host country.

    In last year’s British election, Hindu groups urged British Hindus to vote against the opposition Labour Party, accusing it of being “anti-India” and “anti-Hindu” because of its criticism of human rights violations in Kashmir.

    The Hindu diaspora in the East is less politically influential, yet still mirrors the BJP’s agenda. In Bangkok in January, OFBJP, HSS and VHP demonstrated in support of Modi’s new citizenship amendment act at a time when protests against the law – which has been criticised as discriminatory against Muslims – were spreading through India.”

  22. @razib

    I didn’t completely follow the conversation on IVC. Is the claim that IVC could be a pre-vedic, proto-indo-european language based civilization?

    Could you please elaborate?

    1. my opinion –
      IVC and Vedas are quite distinct – the whole picture brought alive from archeology for IVC seems incongruous with Vedic life – Esp Rgvedic. So I firmly believe IVC to be Pre Vedic; In short i am Team AIT;

      But with OIT theories –
      1. there is an argument that IVC and Vedic civilization co existed in the west and east Indo-Gangetic plain – i dont buy that argument at all for variety of reasons.
      2. Also there is argument that Rgveda is pre IVC and some vedic ppl went East into Ganga valley and some remained in Indus/Sarasvati and built the IVC – Frankly out of the 2 IVC theories i find the Second lot more feasible than 1 – though i personally would bet AIT or OIT by 90% to 10%.

    2. @NM
      The conversation in the thread was all about the feasibility of Harappa speaking an IE language; whether OIT is — true or not — will be decided in the future. The only obstacle to identifying IVC as proto Sanskrit speakers — for linguistic reasons — was: horse.

      There are horse remains that have been found in IVC, but these were insufficient to convince Indologists. Furthermore, recently, paintings of horse riders dating to OCP culture have also been discovered. Now, when even horse argument is proven to be wrong by genetic studies, there is no reason to reject IVC as proto Sanskrit speakers — whether they are so is a separate matter.

      Facts about the date of Rigveda:

      1. It is a pre iron text. The iron age in India started in the 16th century.

      2. People argue that magically urbanism disappeared after 2000 BC. They would not be wildly speculating like this if they had actually studied archaeological papers. Archaeological fact: India remained urban even after 2000 BC. If AMT migrants can compose Rig Veda in an urban setting, then Rig Veda can also be composed during the time of IVC.

      3. The text mentions a perennial Saraswati. The river dried off by ~1900 BC. Yet, Steppe migrants mentioned a dead river in Rig Veda in the location where it flowed.

      4. Rig Veda mentions technologies such as plowing, Bactrian camel, etc. that appear in order from the earliest to latest books. All these technologies — including the iron — were already invented in India by the time AMT occurs. Yet, Steppe migrants composed a text in which technologies appear from oldest to latest books in the approximate order they were discovered historically. Coincidentally, they only forgot to add iron.

      5. Astronomical dating of Rig Vedic texts based on the precession of the earth’s axis gives a date much before AMT migrants arrived. This is the strong proof of the Rig Veda’s date to be before 2000 BC because even the authors were unaware of such a phenomenon.

    1. It is a strange category – Italian BD settlers in the UK. However not terribly strange. When I was holidaying in Italy , in Savona, I went around the town and found a number of shopkeeprs who run, marginal shops like cheap stuff , were bangladeshis. That article also highlights another aspect og migration to Europe. Many of the immigrants to EU countries – apart from Britain , desperately want to come to Britain. Britain has got a mythic status in the minds of potemtial immigrants from poor countries, especually Muslim countries. That is why thousands of young men rot in camps in northern France just across the British Channel in places like Dunquerue or Sanguette risking all their lives , like jumping into lorries to come to Britain. When I was in Switzerland, my taxi driver was an Eritrean who had ben there for 15 years. He kept on asking me how to come to Britain and make a life there. he already had a life and a job – taxi driving – in a beautiful part of Switzerland, still an insane desire to settle in Brtian.

      These thousands of young men would rather rot in refugee camps and die in the process of crossing the Channel to come to Britain, than make a life in France or in any other EU country.

  23. A good friend of mine in India has been toying with high speed trading. Quite a lot of open source material is available and even with a self written rudimentary logic based (but really optimized) code this guy seems to be doing quite well. Has anyone here looked into this?

      1. Give it just two years. You too shall have money to make money. Amazon pays 110K+(base) if you are reasonably good, the key to everything is getting an internship early.

    1. No, its not that easy. He may just be having a bit of luck.

      High freq arbitrage trading not only needs fast algos and software but specialized hardware and very high speed connections to exchanges, so much so that servers are often physically located very close to the exchange.

      Also the high frequency arbitrage pie is only that big. In a smallish stock market such as India’s its even smaller. A lot of players already exist in the market who just about manage to keep their head above the water. I have had close interactions with a few in Gurgaon, Bangalore and Mumbai.

      Scaling to a size where you really rake in the moolah and in 5-10 years can retire is going to be extremely difficult if not impossible. It would probably be a lot easier and likely to take a startup to success.

      Medium and low frequency algo trading is where the potential (still) is. However, its algorithmically much much harder to crack. AfaIk only a few international firms (with offices in India) do this. There often aren’t enough datapoints to draw statistically relevant signals, not to mention the noise in the data.

  24. For people who think Islam cannot be interpreted in line with modern values. Check out this channel.

    There is a world of difference between this guy and someone like zakir naik.

    The fact that Islam is allied with woke in the west may actually help shift Muslims towards these sorts of interpretations.

  25. there is a huge drug related storm in mumbai and bangalore. ipl has started. chinese are becoming a permanent head ache. these matters more than islam, wokeness, etc to an indian in india.

  26. Indian produce(usually onions) export bans are so unfair. Everyone in India from an auto-wala to a surgeon goes all out to swindle others(including farmers) but will blatantly lie and play victim card against farmers. If onions are costly so what? no one has ever died by eating less onions. Farmers should fight for their right to some good time, make city people pay.

    1. True, but there seems to be a Stockholm syndrome with farmers as well. They are not as profit and growth seeking as one would think. This is understandable, farming is risky as it is, and our farmer’s average landholding is pretty small.

      But yes, these export bans are totally unfair. Just like software engineers, our farmers should be able to access the dollar market. If, as a city dweller, you cant afford fruits and vegetables, work harder.

  27. Bhimrao, Vikram,
    What do you make of the new Farm laws ?
    I found them really good on my observation – not much to oppose in them IMO

    1. I don’t understand what the hue and cry in parliament is about, Indian politicians are so unthoughtful and unprofessional when sitting in opposition.

      1) MSP is not going away, in my opinion it should have gone away and so should loan-waivers and indirect subsidies like free water, electricity. But Indian farmers are the original vote bank.
      2) Some items are taken off anti-hoarding list (but why should the farmers protest about that?)
      3) Mandi Samitis are being defanged, in practice this will never be possible as most farmers are too artless in these matters.
      4) The more corporate people show up in agriculture the better.

      Indian landholdings are so small that in most cases farming should be called hobby not a profession. Even self proclaimed rich people brag about having 10 acres of land, lol! It is silly to hang onto such small parcels(<1 acre) and have crazy levels of under-employment but then we are a low IQ and desperately poor people. The life of subsistence farmers is really horrible in UP, I wish more people would take the self-help group route out of this fundamentally stupid occupation. Farming just ain't worth it.

      1. Also, have you been to Bhimashankar from Pune? On the way there are these eateries attached to strawberry farms and small farm produce processors making jams and candies etc. I think with so much excess manpower and small hand-holdings that’s the way to go, specialize in some rare-exotic-costly item.

        I have heard of so many people who have quit jobs in tech and started fabulously successful farms in Karnataka and TN making $100-200K for themselves annually. Those are the kinds of people who can do something worthwhile. The rest of the Indian farmers used to cry, are crying and will continue to cry no matter what anyone does.

        1. “Also, have you been to Bhimashankar from Pune? On the way there are these eateries attached to strawberry farms and small farm produce processors making jams and candies etc. I think with so much excess manpower and small hand-holdings that’s the way to go, specialize in some rare-exotic-costly item.” True – Even in Mahabaleshwar/Panchgani – Berries and now even exotic veggies r grown a lot. On average Western MH farmers r better off though there is lot of Sugar lobby induced problems here as well. MH already allows farmers to sell directly to customer though – and such sabji mandis are growing popular these days. Since lockdown lots of farmers r even providing home deliveries for large societies – its to be confirmed if these folks r really farmers or just middle men posing as farmers to get a better deal

          “Indian landholdings are so small that in most cases farming should be called hobby not a profession. Even self proclaimed rich people brag about having 10 acres of land, lol! It is silly to hang onto such small parcels(<1 acre) and have crazy levels of under-employment but then we are a low IQ and desperately poor people. The life of subsistence farmers is really horrible in UP, I wish more people would take the self-help group route out of this fundamentally stupid occupation. Farming just ain't worth it."
          EXACTLY – Indians farms (no farms IMO) can support such a large % of population. There could be some much employment even if some farms in Gangetic plains r sold over to industries – who would employ lot of migrant workers and farm aids – that may even boost prices and help other farmers. Getting ppl from the North and the east to work in mills in MH,GJ,TN seems to inefficient when these folks could be so much more efficient in UP/Bihar/Orrissa

          Folks like Rathin Roy/Ila Patnaik have been making those recommendations for years now – but in our political system tough to get those things passed.

  28. Just like everything else with this Govt (and in life) , these ‘reform’ will neither free farmers, nor somehow destroy them, and will sort of settle into a middling thing.

    As Bhim noted no one in his right mind will take away MSP or APMCs , in India once u give a subsidy it would be politically sucidial 2 take it away (MNREGA etc) . So nothing will really change on the status quo front. It could actually be counter productive as the Govt might now announce higher MSPs just to hold on to its farmers who are agitating. On the reform part of it, it opens up just another smaller avenue for the farmers to sell in the market. Anyhow its +ve effects are exaggerated. So overall a reform with potential political costs with negligible political (or reform) advantages. Bit like CAA.

    1. So overall a reform with potential political costs with negligible political (or reform) advantages. Bit like CAA.


  29. Indian foreign office babus are just stunningly incompetent:

    This is what their ‘grand-strategy’ gets us:

    even after spending 10,000 crores on Turkish ships:

    Fuck this crackpot and if Turks can’t rein him in like the Malaysians fuck their entire country we can needle them on Syria, Kurds, Armenia and Cyprus, lets take our pound of flesh.

    1. I wouldn’t be so quick to make a decision, it’s important to select battles that use up diplomatic capital carefully. Turkey already has maritime issues with Greece, and France and the other European countries would end up backing the Greeks because of the EU.

      Kashmir is an easy issue that Erodgan just throws in for easy support from his core constituencies in Turkey, and he adds it to the alphabet soup of pet concerns (Palestine, Rohingyas) he makes in a speech, not too surprisingly he appears to have dumped the Uighurs for now. In terms of credible changes on the ground, there’s not much he can do.

      India’s diplomats are somewhat incompetent, but the main problem is that reforms to increase the size of the foreign corps that’s absolutely necessary (the size of India’s foreign service is smaller than Singapore’s) is opposed tooth and nail by existing diplomats because ‘everyone’ wants to be an ambassador. So there’s no incentive for good performance that could lead to promotions since all of them would become ambassadors anyway. If the diplomats had a progression structure similar to the armed forces (where only a percentage of officers get promoted) effectiveness would be up in a couple of years.

      The smarter thing to do is just wait him out till other issues get the better of him, like the Greek sea disputes and the internal corruption cases he faces, and return once his political capital is spent on these things and he’ll be more amenable to friendly relations with India. I have a feeling this is India’s general strategy with the world outside of the immediate neighborhood, and this makes sense given their resource constraints.

      And the problem with any kind of needling on issues like Kurds, Armenia, and Cyprus, is that let’s say things do improve with Turkey, does that mean India will dump these regions since they’re not needed anymore? That would only send a bad message that India makes friends with smaller countries and entities only if there’s a use for them. Any policy towards a country should have a structured approach with long-term goals, and not do a 180 whenever something changes in the neighborhood.

      1. I am fine with Erdogan being crazy, they are a sovereign country. I am not fine with giving sensitive defense projects and pay money to countries who don’t respect India’s territorial integrity.

        Anyways every Uighur beard forcibly shorn should remind all these opportunist Islamists of their true ‘aukaat’.

  30. To tell u the truth, my expectation from any govt is so low , i see any govt which completes its terms without a MNREGA,MSP like subsidy as success 😛 Since they cant do anything good, the least it could do is to not throw new money after bad money. Or at least throw the least amount of money to paper over the cracks.

    And on this front the Modi Govt has been good (considering the situation) and fiscally responsible (much 2 my surprise) , at times at the cost of their pollical capital (this is something which Indian “economists” don’t get, since its not their political capital) .

  31. I heard the Matt Yglesias podcast. A good discussion. It was a little off-putting to hear him speak. He started every sentence with a somewhat terrified yelp like someone was giving him a wedgie each time. It’s hard to convince people your ideas have merit if you don’t sound confident and forthright when presenting them.

  32. current state of farming is not even being acknowledged by the ‘experts’. there were times, when a majority of auto rickshaw drivers in bangalore were muslims as they were the proletariat. now majority of auto and cab drivers are kannadigas from supposedly rich farming districts of mandya and hassan. agriculture as it stands today is totally remunerative. i have seen many so called farmers who have hiredoff their lands and are working in cities.
    some reform is needed.
    prof. vaidyanathan on pgurus channel has a very interesting take on this.

  33. RE: ORIGIN OF SERBS – European civilization was born in Serbia (English subtitle – 45 minutes)

    I believe it would be interesting to listen for both, AMT and OIT. As Khanishka said – Indians and other SAsians should learn the histories of others to be able to learn their own history. There are here couple references on India.

    1. Vincans aka Anatolians have the following Y-DNA halogroups:
      G2a2a1, G2a2a1a, G2a2a1a2a, G2a2a1a, G2a2b2a1a, H2

      1. Тhe ancestors of the Serbs were the first inhabitants of Britain (English subtitles – 37 minutes)


        British Isles:

        Phase 1: 4500 – 3400BC
        All the skeletons examined in Britain belong to the I2A (=Serbian, Dinaric) haplogroup

        Phase 2: 3400 – 2900BC
        All the skeletons examined in Britain belong to the I2A haplogroup

        Phase 3: 2900 – 2500BC
        All the skeletons examined in Britain belong to the I2A haplogroup

        Phase 4: 2500 – 2100BC
        R1B intrusion and settlement on the South, I2A remains on the North, etc…


      The ancient Iranian peoples who emerged after the 1st millennium BC include the Alans, Bactrians, Dahae, Khwarezmians, Massagetae, Medes, Parthians, Persians, Sagartians, Sakas, Sarmatians, Scythians, Sogdians, and probably Cimmerians, among other Iranian-speaking peoples of Western Asia, Central Asia, Eastern Europe, and the Eastern Steppe.

      In the 1st millennium AD, their area of settlement, which was mainly concentrated in steppes and deserts of Eurasia,[8] was reduced as a result of Slavic, Germanic, Turkic, and Mongol expansions and many were subjected to Slavicisation[9][10][11][12] and Turkification.[13][14]

  34. Really enjoyed the podcast episode with Matt Yglesias.

    I wonder if he drew any inspiration from Maximum Canada: Toward a Country of 100 Million.
    Probably not since little attention is paid to Canadian stuff (even in Canada)… but the notion of being underpopulated and imagining a ‘big’ Canada (in terms of population) is something that comes up now and then in Canada.

    Yglesias’ claim sounds crazy at first blush, but I don’t see why the US cannot simply sustain the rates of immigration you see in Canada and Australia. Also don’t see why a points system isn’t used. The immigration system in the US doesn’t seem to have a coherent vision to it. It’s not thought of in strategic terms. It’s a hodgepodge of rules.

    1. lol, i am going to disavow this woman. she is more UK in terms of cooking skills than indian.

      who drains rice using a colander ?

      i understand no rice cooker, but where the pressure cooker at ?

    1. Have two such dudes constantly flexing on my Facebook feed

      Gym culture has increased a in popularity lot over the past few years

  35. i have come across many cases of christian girls marrying upper caste hindus in karnataka. this is an interesting phenomenon.
    if muslims allow their girls to go to colleges/ work more, a similar situation will develop.

    1. “if muslims allow their girls to go to colleges/ work more, a similar situation will develop”

      Hijabs still act as a deterrent. Hijabis are far less likely to converse with men in general imo, based on what I’ve seen. Nevertheless, knew a Hindu guy at college who was dating a hijabi, they were a pretty tight couple (not really in touch with him now, but they’re probably doing well).

  36. the use of burka and hijab is rather funny.
    the hijab gets removed as they are at a sufficient distance from their homes.certainly there are no hijabs in offices and colleges.
    hijab and burka appear back as they reach their homes. this is a fact.

  37. Why are American automotive companies failing in India?
    GM, Ford now Harley
    Few thoughts:
    1) Indian market is for cheapos, Indian people can’t care less to pay for superior engineering/safety/performance/engine all we pay for is a tall-crossover-body and electronic bells and whistles hence a market flooded with plastic bodied four wheel autorickshaws being called cars. Low speed traffic on congested roads helps in hiding how poorly made Indian cars are.
    2) Americans can’t(don’t care about) make small cars. Winner takes all and in India winner is clearly Suzuki and Hyundai.
    3) Crazy import duties(100-200%) that give massive advantage to inefficient local manufacturers. I can bet that GM can make and sell a made in Mexico car cheaper in India if it was not for the duty-barrier.
    4) Small car is the sedan of India. Aspirational Indian people are buying European BMW/Mercedes/Audi/Ducati, poor people are buying Maruti/Hyundai/Tata/Hero/Honda. Poor people pretending to be rich have much better looking alternatives to spend money on like Royal Enfield, KTM or in cars faux-SUVs.
    Overall a sad but inevitable day. Wickedly the way things are going I can’t wait to see Harley Davidson go bankrupt soon and be taken over by Royal Enfield. Hero and RE were in fray for Ducati a few years ago.

    1. American car companies are failing in India for the same reasons they are failing everywhere else.
      Use of bad quality Chinese built parts, obsolete design, low build quality etc. They compare very poorly with Japanese, Korean and German cars.

      Even in the USA its mostly fleet companies who buy American cars.

      1. True, I was in the US last year in Maryland\DC\Virginia. Was surprised to see how popular Japanese cars were, you see more Ford and GM cars in the UK.

        1. Is it just me or did others also notice that normal people in UK/Belgium/Netherlands drive around really old looking cars compared to the US. Perhaps better roads, cheap-maintenance, public transport, relatively lower wages and short commutes mean that old cars survive longer.

  38. Just a few additions…

    In the past I offered a financial reward to anyone who can provide one primary source of Slavic (i.e. Serbian) migration from an unknown destination in Ukraine to Balkan. Of course, none came to quote any source for this falsification. The official (Wiki) history (although many countries are abandoning this) is based on one falsification from 1711 AC which looks more like a joke (it will be detailed later). I already asked few logical questions for this falsification which is also crucial for SA (and worldwide) history. A few other things.

    It is still unknown (!) the place where Slavics lived and began their trip. Another logistic study says that, based on final destination, about 300 thousands of people had to be in this voyage with a typical family of parents with 4 married sons and kids. They had to leave with 300-500 kg of food per capita and about 20 ox/horses. It seems that they had to be very rich people at that time. This procession would be 1500 km long or as 10 processions, 150 km each. It is interesting that none on the way have noticed this procession, not even at the ‘destination’. What about big rivers 500+ meters wide without bridges? Narrow gorges?

    And these people left the most fertile land In Ukraine (‘chernozom’=black earth), crossed the most fertile land in Pannonia, crossed Carpathians, did not stop at Belgrade, continued through the dozens of Bosnia’s mountains and settled in a moon landscape of Herzegovina without 1 kg of fertile land??? And, from let say 300 K of Slavics, in about 1000 years we got the population of several hundreds of millions people which in 10-11 c.AC consisted 60% of Euro population? Only brainless wiki readers and frustrated Internet stalkers who follow the adage that 1000 repeated wiki lie eventually will become the truth can state something as this.

    Hungarians moved to Pannonia in 896 AC. They have tons of stories, folk songs, fairy tales from this migration, preserved in their memory. Serbs have neither one little song/story nor memory about their alleged migration. But they remember the ‘damned tsar Duklyanin (i.e. Diocletian)’ who confiscated all properties from, still illegal Christians.

    Let’s hope that we can move on and discuss some serious things related to much earlier Serbian migrations to SA, East Asia and China.

  39. I honestly think we should be allies with China, rather than seeing them as a threat. They are our Asian brothers after all. (((AASI))NE Asian) so we share genetic heritage through our East Eurasian AASI component as well. On the global scale, most Indians as a whole are really half-way between East and West Eurasia, so around the same spot as other Eurasians with similar genetic backgrounds in the New World/Americas and in Central Asia. The only difference being, the cline of NW South Asians extends well into West Eurasian territory. However, given our geographic proximity and historic and cultural ties to the Far East, we should really make it a priority to forge our strongest alliances with our East Asian Neighbors, even if it is at the expense of the West.

    Historically, India was rather close to China, and through it, was able to form strong relations with its sister civilizations in Japan, and Korea. SE Asia was directly influenced by India as well. Its only when the Islamic invasions, spearheaded by the Arabs, and subsequently the Turks and Turco-Mongols under the aegis of Islam, disrupted the “Pax Siddartha” in South Asia as I call it, that the free flow of ideas and technology between the Far East and India was severely disrupted. It also destroyed most of the infrastructure in place in South Asia for the study of different academic fields. Even when Hinduism was followed by the majority of the subcontinent, there was cross-pollination between South Asia and the Far East. But Islam had the effect of driving a wedge in this exchange, and the rest was history. This had rather far-reaching consequences on India and Asia’s development in STEM fields, which until then, was a world leader in the same. Colonialism only made things even worse.

    I read a book by Robert Temple recently, wherein he talks about how China invented around half of the things in the modern world today. They had a stupendously productive civilization, even without colonizing other lands and looting wealth and ideas from other peoples. Their legacy will last forever, and now with the resurgence of the Far East, the time is not far off when they will once again lead the world in innovation. India could have had a similar fate, but it was abruptly stymied by the destruction of its universities, the burning of its texts, and the wholesale slaughter of its intelligentsia in most parts of India. Nevertheless, South Asia has its own seminal contributions that shaped the modern world, just not as many as China’s. If Islam had not fractured the peace and prosperity in the subcontinent, as well as strangling the exchange and flow of ideas between the Far East and India, World History would have been very different.
    If we are to move forward and become a developed country, we must at least emulate the rise of Japan, Korea, Taiwan and Singapore, and co-opt certain policies used by the Chinese, and co-operate with them on massive infrastructure projects and in STEM fields, so that we do not get left behind in this new information economy. The West will be content to sit still and lampoon our defecating habits, while countries like China, that have been in a similar spot sometime in the recent past, (the century of humiliation) will at least empathize and assist us with our development. Even Japan, which had a head start in modernization on other Asian countries owing to the Meiji restoration, is familiar with the feeling of getting relatively left behind in the context of Western development. People who share/have shared our weaknesses in the past are our strongest potential allies. The Asian camaraderie or lack thereof, is a crucial political issue that must be at the forefront of our foreign policy in South Asia.

    1. Chinese are a pragmatic people(all self made big powers are) they know we can’t be trusted. They have seen enough history to know there is no lasting perpetual peace and conflict is inevitable. Have you seen their invasions into (then) neighboring countries (now provinces). Sustained warfare for generations, army upon army marching onwards. Their colonization of Tibet/Xinjiang/Kham is so complete (like USA or Australia) that no one even points it out.

      Let us look at your country of allegiance USA, they colluded with China and fucked India in perpetuity via letting Pakistan get a N-bomb. All major powers are like this they know there is never going to be ‘happily ever after’ so they cooperate but keep needling others. After slaving, colonizing and capturing Australia, N-America and exterminating so many races it is easy to talk world order for Anglos and Chinese know this game too.

      People survive loosing a war but nations/ideas die. India should prepare herself and make best of this once in two-millennia unity. Must sweat on our dismal IQ, our lazy people and our inept government while there is still time or else there will only be South Asia but no India.

    2. issue is CCP, not Chinese people. If government of today’s Taiwan ran what is currently PRC, it would be different.

      Communism and radical islamic terrorism are two biggest threats to peace and progress in our time

      1. “issue is CCP, not Chinese people.”

        This is the same argument India’s liberals give abt Pakistan.

      2. Chinese are Chinese. They see fit an equilibrium where we are shown our place regularly lest we grow overconfident. They want us to be hesitant and timid.

        Indians are an undisciplined and loud people, a third of whom don’t even consider themselves Indians. Chinese have shed a lot of blood to build one China, their military and industrial traditions far outstrip us. China is like a massive France, original, thoughtful, and with a clear national vision. India is like a massive Myanmar. Perhaps the reason for difference in practicality is to be found in historical degree of urbanization.

        Random ramblings:
        Lots of work to be done doctor saab. Sometimes I think why did Maharana Pratap keep fighting clearly knowing he would loose, the answer is that the blood flown in defeat also binds men together. Mirza Hakim(Akbar’s brother) was able to forcibly convert so many pathan infidels around the same time but Mughals couldn’t break the Rajput. Fighting a loosing battle is important, against China we are loosing horribly, but if we don’t put up a fight the future generations will not call themselves Indians and perhaps even say their forefathers were insect-eating yellow people who came from across the Himalayas carrying the little red book of prophet Mao, peace be upon him.

        1. “perhaps even say their forefathers were insect-eating yellow people who came from across the Himalayas carrying the little red book of prophet Mao, peace be upon him.”

          Well i know folks in the South and the East who already say that so it won’t be a surprise.

          “Fighting a loosing battle is important, against China we are loosing horribly, but if we don’t put up a fight the future generations will not call themselves Indians”

          That has been the fate and burden of all N-Indians, to fight for the rest.

        2. @Bhimrao

          What’s with all the inferiority tripping? We annexed both Sikkim and Arunachal Pradesh into India after the 1962 war. That was our revenge – 90000 square Kms against Aksai Chin (38000 Kms). We did this with some shots fired. And of course, these are much more valuable real estate because of the population and accessibility into Tibet.

          And just as a side quest, India’s economy is today where China was in 2006. The gap is nothing, considering the age of the civilisations. We made it with democracy and a preservation of traditional systems. Our soft power is much more than China. And Gods willing, there will be a reckoning for their misadventures in Akshay Hind.

  40. Regarding China, I doubt they will ever be as powerful as the US was in the postwar era, especially post-1989 when FSU fell.

    The reason is simple: alliances. The network of alliances that the US has is unmatched and China basically has no chance to mimic that. Thus, they will be consigned to being spoilers in East Asia but no more.

    As for India, I repeat what I stated before: low human capital due to neglect of basic education since independence cannot be undone quickly. Furthermore, education is mostly a state-subject, so even the best and most reformist PM in Delhi could only achieve limited things on her own. That’s why I am short-to medium-term skeptical on India’s development path. But I am long-term positive. I think India will ultimately gets its house in order.

  41. The Modi govt has passed some reform bills (agriculture, labor) in the last 10 days.

    Do u know y India doesn’t have or trust free market economists? Because they have an apology for a spine. None of them had stood by the Govt lest they are deemed facist and cancelled, perhaps no one will call them to next JLF. A good example is Kaul himself. For ages they have been shouting from roof tops, “reform”, “reform” , and when any Govts does it , these economists run to their burrows since they know its not their political capital on the line. So best of both worlds, if the reform is successful or not they can always take credit or say “It wasn’t enough” .A good example is Land reform bill which the Govt in 2014, same economists, same cowardice. They can’t support small reforms, and expect Govt 2 privatize Banks. LOL.

    At least the economists of the left like Banerjee, Sen etc stand by their people. And then people wonder y India doesn’t have right of centre eco system, y dont we have reforms. That’s y the only right in India worth its salt is Hindutva, not jokers trads (on social front) or sponge-spined libertarians (on economics).

  42. After genetics and an unnecessary detour to explain to the slowest learners among us that it did not exist so-called Slavic migration, we are moving to the next discussion topic – language. It would be unfair to leave them behind. There are a lot of materials, enough for at least two years of commenting.

    Again, we will see some falsifications in this field. I apologize in advance because I summarize too much to make this comment shorter but, later on, we can revisit some things.

    For the beginning, we can state – the Old (or so-called ‘Ancient’) Greek language has originated from the Serbian language. Both names – Greeks and Helens are Serbian words.

    We will use the work from Konstantin Economou, a Greek philologist from the first half of 19th.cAC. He was born in Thessaly in the city of Carica. This word with 2 letters C (pronounced as TZ) which does not exist in Greek alphabet is a Serbian word with a meaning – Empress. He was the best expert in Old Greek language in which was written Iliad. Specifically, we will use his version of Our Father, written in Old Greek where we can see many, modern and old, Serbian words.

    Greeks did not have some letters/sounds and often changed/replaced some letters. For e.g. they changed S in T (e.g. glossa > glotta, talassa > talatta). Many writers including a Greek Laonik Halkokondilo in the 15th c.AC wrote that the word Tribals, who were a Serbian tribe, was actually Sribals, Srbals (i.e. Serbs). It means that a modern word ‘tribal’ actually means a ‘Serb’. It is similar for a Serbian word ‘sisa’ which was changed to ‘titta, titdos’ what is in English ‘titts’. Btw. the Serbian word ‘tolkuye’ is actually English ‘talk’.

    Old Greek word ‘kartvos’ is actually Serbian ‘carstvo’ (kingdom). RST is a typical Serbian group which cannot be pronounced by foreigners and even by some Slavics. Serbian words ‘caRSTvo, cvRST, pRST, kRST ’ (i.e. kingdom, sturdy, finger, cross) are examples of such words. Greek replaced C with the nearest K. Foreigners often remove one consonant as Greek did changing CaRSTvo in Kar(S)tvos.

    Words – csar, cesar, kesar, tzar, zir, sir, kir originated from the Serbian word ZAR (svetlost).

    Aryans went to SA almost 4000 years ago carrying the language. In this language was a letter Ч (in Latin – Č, i.e. CH as in CHarles) which is preserved in Sanskrit. Greeks did not have this letter in their alphabet and could not pronounce it. The number 4 in Serbian is ČETIRI, in Sanskrit is ČETVARI. In Greek is TETVARES. This letter is difficult to pronounce and because Greeks pronounce this as Serbian toddlers who still cannot speak properly. The reason for these because the colonists were taking the language from indigenous people and pronouncing it in accordance to their voice scale. Btw, Greeks further changed this word (because it is not their mother tongue) in – tesera. Č is a part of the mother tongue which was carried over to SA.

    Another example from ‘Our Father’ is a Serbian word BUDEM (infinitive is BITI) which Greeks changed to FUTO because they did not have the letter B in their alphabet. Similarly, they changed the name of Serbian tribe BRIGI into Phrygians. Again, Sanskrit is a proof what is correct and older because Greeks as the Semitic-Hamitic people who came from the Near East/Egypt are much younger than the Aryan migration.

    A verb BITI in Sanskrit is BHAVATI and in English is TO BE. It does not exist anymore this form in Latin and Greek.

    Serbian language is the nearest to the source language (wrongly called Proto IE) and has all forms from other languages. A Serbian form JESAM is preserved in English as I AM.

    BUDE(M) in English presents the future and because of this, from the Greek FUTO we have the name FUTURE.

    I2a people 5500 years ago moved to the north and transferred with them their language, too. Because, some words are common in Serbian and English but do not exist in Latin and Greek. In addition, Saxony was actually Lusitanian Serbia in today’s Germany. For e.g. in both, Serbian and English languages, the kinship is expressed in bones – knee, forehead, rib. Speaking about this, the next time we will see what Plato says about words taken by Greeks from indigenous people.

    Btw, probably not many pundits know that Plato is not his real name, it is a nickname. What was his real name? ARISTOCLE! It means that ARISTO was his father and CLE is actually a Serbian KNEE, i.e. the descendant, the next generation, i.e. SON. ARISTOCLE is a son of ARISTO. Similarly, we have Pericle(s), Sophocle(s), and many other. Exciting stuff. Stay tuned for more.

    1. Lol.

      Y-chromosomal haplogroups identified among the Serbs from Serbia and near countries are the following with respective percentages: I2a (36.6[2]-42%[3]), E1b1b (16.5[3]-18.2%[2]), R1a (14.9[2]-15%[3]), R1b (5[2]-6%[3]), I1 (1.5[3]-7.6%[2]), J2b (4.5[3]-4.9%[2]), J2a (4[4]-4.5%[3]), J1 (1[4]-4.5%[3]), G2a (1.5[3]-5.8%[4]), and several other uncommon haplogroups with lesser frequencies.[3][5][6][7]

      On this basis Serbs established Islam, Mesopotamia, the whole world. Must be nice being a Serb.

    2. “””
      Numerous lexemes that are reconstructible for the Proto-Slavic language have been identified as borrowings from the languages of various tribes that Proto-Slavic speakers came into contact with, either in prehistorical times or during their expansion when they first appeared in history in the 6th century (the Common Slavic period).[1] Most of the loanwords come from Germanic languages, with other contributors being Iranian, Celtic, and Turkic.

  43. What evidence is there that R* originated around Bihar, Nepal and Bengal?

    And now R is from Burma? Based on what? We have K2b in North China, P at Yana RHS. K2b’s sister branch, K2a, has also been found in North Eurasia. That SE Asia has preserved these lineages better is not surprising but they didn’t originate there. And where is the evidence for a migration from SE Asia to North Asia other than in your imagination?

    And R1a entered India from the east and the moved into the steppes? Where’s the archeological evidence for this? And please tell me how they avoided AASI. Did they have airplanes? Did Europeans culturally appropriate airplanes that were invented by R1a native Aryans in India thousands of years ago? Give me a break.

    These anti AIT fairytales just keep on getting worse and worse. K2b/P/R are from North Asia. R1a is from Eastern Europe. Get over it.

    1. According to Razib “The Dravidianization of India”
      One conclusion I have come to is that Dravidian speaking groups are not the aboriginal peoples of the subcontinent.


      Why do I believe this?

      1. The Neolithic begins in South India in 3000 BC.
      2. Sri Lanka is Indo-European speaking.
      3. The Dravidian languages of South India don’t seem particularly diverged from each other.
      4. There is ancestry/caste stratification in South India even excluding Brahmins (e.g., Reddys and Naidus in Andhra Pradesh look somewhat different from Dalits and tribals).
      5. Some scholars claim that there isn’t a Dravidian substrate in the Gangetic plain.
      6. R1a1a-Z93, almost certainly associated with Indo-Aryans, is found in South Indian tribal populations.
      7. Using LD-based methods researchers are rather sure that the last admixture events between ANI and ASI (“Ancestral South Indians”) populations occurred around ~4,000 years ago.

      Plus the paper “The Himalayas as a Directional Barrier to Gene Flow”

      I personally don’t know whether R1a is native to India or not. It could also be a recent arrival.

    2. “And R1a entered India from the east and the moved into the steppes? Where’s the archeological evidence for this? And please tell me how they avoided AASI. Did they have airplanes?”

    3. So sorry for R1a fantasizers. According to Reich:
      While the genetic findings point to a central role for the Yamnaya in spreading Indo-European languages…those findings do not yet resolve the question of the homeland of the original Indo-European languages…Anatolian langauges…did not share the full wagon and wheel vocabulary present in all Indo-European languages spoken today. Ancient DNA available from this time in Anatolia shows no evidence of steppe ancestry similar to that in the Yamnaya…This suggests to me that the most likely location of the population that first spoke an Indo-European language was south of the Caucasus Mountains, perhaps in present-day Iran or Armenia, because ancient DNA from people who lived there matches what we would expect for a source population both for the Yamnaya and for ancient Anatolians. (pg 120)

      There is no consensus on what is true. It would be better for wild speculators to wait for more data.

      1. I mean you’re the only wild speculator here. An IE homeland in Iran or Armenia would require an expansion from Iran or Armenia into Europe, Central Asia and South Asia at very specific times. No evidence for that but there is evidence for migrations from the steppe into Western Europe, Central Asia, and West Asia. And that still doesn’t make R1a or IE, Indian. Also the oldest R1a we have so far is from Northern Russia. Its just funny how we keep finding these R1a EHG in Europe but not a single R1a from Iran even close to those in age. But I’m sure that won’t be mentioned by you because it doesn’t fit your agenda. Somehow your believe Reich wishy washyness is support for your theory.

    4. @Vishal (or) @Vishal A….

      You are a funny guy, man. I give it to you. But the name of the game is multi-disciplinary consensus. At least, 3 disciplines show a severe lack of corroborative evidence.

      1. Where in the effing world is the archaeological evidence? Did these Steppes guys run naked all the way from there till Uttar Pradesh? Not even a single weapon or comb or bead to show. Almost every archaeologist worth his salt (including Vasant Shinde) states this again and again. Total contrast with the Bell Beaker intrusion in Europe. I guess the Steppes immigrants to Europe took all the property and women. Leaving nothing for the Steppes Indians!!

      2. Why do the Old books of the Rgveda only mention the Ganga, Yamuna and the Saraswati? Only the New books name the Indus and it’s tributaries. It’s the exact reverse. Guess the Steppes Indians went by boat to Cochin and then took a train to UP. Then they went on a well deserved vacation to Punjab.

      3. FR Allchin already asked a valid question in the 1990s. Why is there no phenotypic intrusion into the skeletal record of North India? Even from the IVC?

      Multi-disciplinary consensus. That’s the word.

      I will throw you another clue. Sugar has been cultivated in India since 3000 BC (trace analysis). In fact the modern word for sugar comes from the Vedic word Iksu. The earliest kings, the Iksuvakus, were owners of sugar plantations in the Gangetic belt. If the Steppes guys only arrived in 1500 BC, who was cultivating sugar earlier? And what language were they speaking?

  44. Also I’m curious how China invented half the things in the modern world.

    You’re ignoring the contributions of India, West Asia, Egypt and the Mediterranean in ancient times. And at the same time trying to deny that Western/Northern Europeans created our modern world or contributed to it more than anybody else (go look who invented or contributed to the creation of eyeglasses, air conditioning, electricity, the industrial revolution, refrigeration, calculus, skyscrapers, sanitation and plumbing systems, trains, planes, cars, ships, military technology, linear algebra, statistics, computers, the internet, our systems of banking). I didn’t even consider who shaped our modern cuisines, sports, way of dressing, art ,architecture, music. You’re using a computer with internet, communicating in English written in Latin script. But sure the Chinese invented half the modern world.

    I can only guess that statement was motivated by a weird mixture of an inferiority complex (minimizing Indian contributions), Islamophobia (minimizing West Asian contributions) and wokeness (minimizing European contributions) that seems to be quite pervasive on this site.

    Also the idea of forging alliances based on AASI being East Eurasian is laughable. Nobody in China or India gives a crap about that (if they even know about it in the first place). China would screw over India the first chance they get. Also AASI has been diverged from other East Eurasian components for a long time. And East Eurasian ancestry didn’t save Ugyhurs or Tibetans from being colonized.

    1. “Islamophobia (minimizing West Asian contributions)”

      If you’re talking about the modern world, then the Muslim world is indeed very low in terms of contribution despite their size. And their past achievements are overhyped at this point in order to sugarcoat Islam in the west and make it look more acceptable.

  45. On a lighter note and related to the book on the Persianate age, does anybody know if things like biryanis, naan, kebabs are Indian, Iranic or Turkic in origin?

  46. Dil garden garden ho gaya!
    Skyroot unveils India’s first cryogenic rocket engine.
    @Ugra why does this look so lame? where are the pipes, valves, pumps, insulation and shit? Is it all 3d-printed into the thing? or this is just the shell and plumbing comes later? Or is it some simple inefficient brute force samadhaan ie propellant+oxidizer+maachis = aaaaagggg?

    1. @bhimrao….lolz. I suppose it has something to do with the propellant choice (cryo LNG). Reading up on it…..will let you know.

      Btw, these guys are smoking the same thing that Elon does. The starhopper is also gonna use methane!!

      1. Have you been following how Spacex is spitting out starship prototypes like pancakes. Almost one every two weeks or so, incredible speed, mind-blowing, it would have taken others a decade to do what SpaceX did in last 3 months. Shame on ULA, Ariane-space like dinosaurs for having delayed space age due to their complacency.

    1. Shocked at how little coverage this received, especially considering the fact that it was a woman who was killed.

      If it were the other way around, then I can’t imagine how much more coverage it would’ve received. And I see tons of similar cases being listed in the comments

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