Their Muslim Problem—And Ours

By Razib Khan 99 Comments


Every now and then there is a controversy on Indian-Twitter which bleeds over into my timeline that I have to notice.

Some quick observations:

– There are those who lambast the critics of this ad. Many of the critics are low-IQ vulgarians. So the criticism is not without foundation. But, most of the responses dodge the gendered nature of the objection. The fact is that in Islam it is understood that Muslim men can marry non-Muslim women. It is also tolerated for Christians and Jews to retain their religion after marriage. The children are considered Muslim. This practice in a patriarchal society was seen as a boon to the Islamic nation.

The advertisement plays into this Islamic trope. The converse of this is that most interpretations of sharia ban the marriage of Muslim women to non-Muslim men. Again, the rationale for this is straightforward: the children inherit the religion of the father, and therefore the children are lost to Islam. If the supporters of the beauty of the advertisement of interfaith marriage believe in this custom, then they should support more speech. In particular, they should support an advertisement where a Hindu man marries a Muslim woman in a Hindu ceremony to show that there is nothing wrong with this act so long as the people consent freely.

But, this sort of advertisement might incite Muslims, because the community may not tolerate a contravention of their social norms. Here, the low-IQ vulgarians do have a point, don’t they? India’s “secularists” tolerate a level of regression and backwardness in Islamic social mores that they wouldn’t tolerate from Hindus. Some of this is the heckler’s veto, but some of this is the bigotry of low expectations.

– The other half of this are the delusions and paranoia of India’s Hindu majority and in particular Hindu nationalists. The idea that Muslim men are “sensual” and irresistible to Hindu women strikes most as bizarre and strange. But, it is a fact that Muslims and Islam do view themselves in an expansive light. I have listened to Muslims talk about the day when all Hindus, Christians, and Buddhists will no longer be, and everyone will be Muslim. But, many Hindus have internalized Muslim self-image and norms. The assumption and expectation is that any marriage between a Hindu and a Muslim will produce new Muslims. Why not new Hindus?

When Islam was the religion of the hegemonic people of the subcontinent obviously many Hindus became Muslims. The marriage of Mughals to Hindu Rajput women produced new Muslim rulers. To protect their identity Hindus seem to have undergone an involution.* This is not shocking, Jews underwent a similar process under Christianity and later Islam. An illustration of this involution is the story of Mastani and Krishna Rao, later Shamsher Bahadur. As most readers know Mastani was the daughter of a Hindu maharajah and a Persian Muslim concubine. She identified as a Hindu, like her father. But her son was raised a Muslim. Here is what Wikipedia says:

Shamsher Bahadur was the son of Maratha Peshwa Bajirao I and his second wife Mastani, whose mother was a Persian Muslim. Bajirao wanted Shamsher Bahadur to be accepted as a Hindu Brahmin, but because of his mother’s Muslim heritage, the priests refused to conduct the Hindu upanayana ceremony for him.

Bajirao I had his son raised a Muslim because he could not be raised a Hindu Brahmin, and to this day there are descendants of Shamsher Bahadur who identify as proud descendants of the Peshwa and Muslim. There is likely some level of politics in the behavior of the Brahmins, but they illustrate a general trend where Hindus views on pollution were so strong that they excluded potential members of the community, to the gain of other groups.

These high barriers to entry make sense in a defensive crouch, which native Indian religious traditions, which we now call Hindu, were after 1200 A.D. But they do not make sense in a nation where nearly 80% of the people identify as Hindu. Even low-IQ vulgarians aside, the “Hindu mind” is haunted by Islam. Rather than being proactive, Hindus are often reactive, whether it is to Islam, or to the West.

A true civilization has a positive expansive vision. It is time that Hindus stop being defensive, and articulate a vision of the good life beyond one that aims to preserve a fading past when there is a future that they could grasp.

Native Indian religious tradition survived centuries of Islamic domination, and then British colonialism. But that is over. It is now time to live, and define existence on one’s own terms.

* Hinduism before Islam was not involuted. Not only was it dynamic and assimilative in South Asia (e.g., the conversion of Sakas), but much of Southeast Asia was touched by Indian migration and Hindu religious forms.

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99 Replies to “Their Muslim Problem—And Ours”

  1. Well argued – one of the best I have read in last couple of days.
    The incidence of Mastani is particularly salient and even in one of my friends case – I know of a Hindu Man Muslim woman marriage where children are raised Muslim as man’s family didn’t accept Muslim bride. If ritual purity is sacrosanct – a drop of Mleccha/yavana blood can be enough to make someone impure. If the most powerful man of his time – Bajirao couldn’t have his way talks to the hold of the orthodoxy of that time. It again is given as one of the reasons for maratha Defeat in Panipat. The Marathas carried so many non combatants – and some speculate it was due to fear of avoiding another Mastani and pressure for Pilgramages from orthodoxy. Vishwas Patil says Sadashiv rao couldn’t oppose it despite seeing the flaws and being the second in command to the Peshwa.

    As with cases of Bollywood celebs – most wives of Muslims have converted and those who haven’t have seen their children raised as Muslims.
    Exception may be SRK whose documentary shows SRK and wife having Hindu idols in their house. Don’t know how believable it all is though.

    Children from opposite marriage always tend to have choice or in some cases are default Muslims as well – but this is also known to change.

    Personally I would’ve had more sympathies for liberal cause here had we not seen the intolerance from them threatening boycotts and morally justifying silencing of others – Bloomsbury debacle.

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    1. I remember a similar story where a Buddhist (Laddhaki) king Rinchan conquered Kashmir. He was thinking of converting either to Hinduism or Islam. Pandits refused initiation due to his low ritual status. He therefore converted to Islam and was instrumental in establishing Islam in Kashmir.

      Makes ones blood boil at Trad stupidity and their willingness to make own goals on dumbass s**t like ritual purity.

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      1. Fashionable to blame everything on Casteism. I had also read that he was refused conversion because he had killed the former king and married his daughter, prob. forcibly. He had also rebelled against his Uncle the Buddhist ruler of Ladakh. Might not be good optics in the long run to grant him high status for the Pandits at that time.

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    1. Interesting. I have never personally heard of a case of one rejection of haleem over handvo going as far as producing a Hindu nat son. I think we will see more. I know more male dharmic- female Muslim couples than before.

      In college and med school, it always surprised me, when I matched at a decent rate with S Asian muslim girls on dating apps. I was always taught explicitly that they were brainwashed to never even consider that stuff. But after seeing enough cases of hijabi in the streets and azadi in the sheets, even a couple first hand ;), the views my family tried to instill in me changed.

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    2. I have a friend who married a Hindu (Gujrati) girl in the US and the kids are sort of non-conformist HIndu, not at all Muslim. I guess that is because my friend (who is a hafiz Quran) is not very Muslim either and mom is liberalish Hindu (liberalish because she is not woke, just a normal tolerant human being), so kids are more or less Hindu. Their daughter just married a Gujrati Hindu without any religious ceremony (no pandit) but did have 7 rounds around the fire etc handled by family rather than a Pandit, so I assume the descendants will be un-confusedly Hindu, but “cultural Hindus” of the American type, not very particular about purity, rituals or caste. In a word, American… But you never know, they may become “activists” of some sort and if the activism that catches hold of them is RW Hindu, we may see more formal ghar wapsi rituals 😉

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      1. I think in US , this is the golden days for the Hindu right. Because the Indian diaspora is still a mish mash of Indian immigrants who are coming in and also American citizens. Once it stabilizes i see Hindu kids in US turning more woke and liberal in subsequent generations. Not more Hindu right. In a way its already happening where surveys show that Indian american kids are even bigger democratic voters than their parents.

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        1. Hehe. It’s moot making these predictions because things take unexpected turns over long enough periods of time.

          That said, I predict that Canada will become a bastion of Hindu right in the future even as upper caste/class Hindus in India become more secular. Would be interesting to see how Canadian Sikhs react when more and more Hindus make their way to the country.

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      2. The average hindu upper caste no longer cares about caste or rituals. This is a fact, that no one wants to admit. The lived , practice of Hinduism today is very different from the stereotype of media. The castes which benifit from ” reservation” are more worried about not marrying out of caste, or else they loose there benifits..the general category has nothing too loose so they do more intercaste marriage s without difficult y in urban India.

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    3. Your article is nuanced and good. I don’t see any hindu symbols in the adv except the bindi on the bahu. She could as well as been catholic. The liberal folks have created this hulla on the adv because they do not want to acknowledge the bigotry which killed Rahul Rajput and Lakshmipati. How many of the liberal and commies have addressed this ” elephant in the room”. To cover this REAL issue they outrage on the adv. Because the real issue cant be addressed. Also it is not about ritual purity, ie shamshad bahadur case but about maintain ing peace. All ancient religions the parsis Jews and Hindus did not believe in religious conversion
      Hindus are still today one of the most dynamic people, ready to change social and religious laws and now conversion do happen quite common ly.

      Best wishes

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  2. If ritual purity is sacrosanct – a drop of Mleccha/yavana blood can be enough to make someone impure.

    It can be even more extreme. Jinnah’s grandfather converted after being outcasted for traveling abroad. I think there could have been an expensive ceremony to regain purity, which he chose to forego.

    I have very little sympathy for trad. hindus in this regard.

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    1. ‘converted after being out casted for traveling abroad.’
      Any sources?
      That smells like BS especially of the kind written by leftie historians. People retrofit these sad-struggle stories all the time. Since time immemorial there have been foreign travelers, fishermen and butchers in India.

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  3. I wish I could have been more concise but here are some thoughts, please have a look if you find time:

    Let us do a thought experiment: if Hindus concede that Ottomans or Safavids were an order of magnitude more magnificent than any Indian polity. That Turk/Persian/Arab civilization was more productive and just than Indians could ever manage. Taking this even further let Hindus also concede that they are truly genetically inferior in intelligence, beauty and strength. And finally let Hindus also concede that their myriad spiritual traditions, philosophical indulgences, societal bonds and life experiences are all primitive and beastly.

    Assuming that these are our priors how do you think a Hindu’s mind would react? Would it really be worried/unbalanced/disturbed? The answer to me is a clear ‘No’. 99.999…% people know that they are nowhere near the truly greats, they know that they slacked, fucked around, and are truly inadequate but they still persist, keep up the performance, they still drag on. They try to make best of their circumstances through trying again, lying, misrepresenting, hiding…

    Why are people so engaged even after knowing that their work and lives are without any real consequence? Everyday will, confidence and activity has got nothing to do with the real world. Granted some people act out on their internal inadequacies, mental chatter and some even manage to fill big holes in their hearts by external things/achievements. But most never do! they simply adjust to what they have. There are hardly any people who did not want to be rich and famous, but do you see normal everyday Indian aunties crying about never amounting to anything? No, they just adjust to what they have.

    Hindus do not shit their (our) pants when facing Arabs or Turks or Persians. You will never see a Hindu(Indian) crying about Indians having made such small contributions in almost all the fields of human endeavor. In their hearts they know that Gora people kicked our ass but no one cries about it.

    The Hindu low confidence is not about a lifetime spent under the boot of the Turk/Persian, or the massacres, or the temple desecration, it is about their fellow Indians who have betrayed them. Hindus cannot wrap their minds around how can their brothers (Indian subcontinent converted Muslims) be so full of poison? How can they make up such BS and defend monsters? How can they not see? It unnerves them, attacks at the very foundational need to make sense, to be consistent and fair.

    All the whining you see is because of this assault on the Hindu’s bedrock of sanity by the fellow Indians (now Pakistanis and Bangladeshis) insistence on (currently and historically) being unhinged assholes. Hindu are so unbalanced because it is them on the other side, they look at a Indian Muslim and they see a weirdo Hindu and it drives them nuts.

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    1. The so called weirdo Hindus on the other side – who let that happen ? Is it the lure of Islam or the indignities they suffered under our traditions. Again is there a way in our tradition even today to lure them back ? No. So let’s first create a vision and a path for ourselves before whining about what went wrong in the past.

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      1. @Razib
        Did I sound stupid, bigoted or deranged? If yes then in which line(s)? Or was the whole comment inconsistent and refutable trash?

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  4. This is from today’s paper. Assam announces crackdown on marriages where the man hides his religion to marry a woman.

    https://swarajyamag.com/insta/many-muslim-boys-create-fb-accounts-with-hindu-names-post-pictures-at-temples-h-b-sarma-announces-crackdown-on-marriages-by-deception

    Another part of this situation which is not commented upon – the Muslim man can marry a second and a third wife legally in India, reducing the first wife to a life of second-class status. This illustrates the legal dimensions of such interfaith marriages.

    Hindutva Twitter commentary ran a long back and forth before converging to the solution for such rampant signalling that has permeated even the ad world. The day Uniform Civil Code comes into play, Muslim men will shy away from Hindu brides. A Hindu married woman will become a legal mountain that will be forbidding to men used to paltry alimonies, TTT and multiple marriages in their cultures.

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  5. The patriarchy stuff aside, another thing I found stupid was that this ad was aimed at the festive season (Navratri and Diwali) buyers, but they decide to show a Muslim household surprising the daughter-in-law by taking part in a baby shower (???), when they clearly know that it’s not Muslims who are gonna be doing most of the buying (and people usually buy gold/silver coins with Hindu deities on them). Don’t know what they were getting at, but looked pretty dumb imo.

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  6. Just chiming in to remind folks that the Turks and Mongols had a far greater impact on West Asia and Central Asia than they did on South Asia, both in terms of leaving a genetic legacy (in terms of admixture and haplogroups and other genetic signatures), a sociocultural legacy (languages, cultural practices, religion proselytization) and a legacy of death and destruction (killing multitudes of men and women all over the region, enslaving millions of people, and effectively colonizing them, and marrying/raping them forcefully). In contrast, while they ruled portions of South Asia for periods of time, they were eventually assimilated into greater South Asian society genetically and were even syncretic in many of their practices, including religion in many cases (look at Akbar and his new religion for instance).

    They also never colonized South Asia, nor were they able to rape/enslave and massacre as many people as they did in West/Central Asia, and thus they didnt leave a genetic legacy in the region. Lastly, no one speaks a Turkic language in the region, and we don’t follow Turkic cultural practices either. Of course, Islam was adopted by more people as a result of their efforts, but it was never a complete embrace, the likes of which we see in West and Central Asia. Dharmic and indigenous faiths still survived their jihad, in addition to providing asylum to those people from West Asia who sought to maintain their religion and practices. The resilience of the South Asian region is incredible in this light, for it survived and managed to preserve its identity by and large, in the wake of the most terrible military onslaught ever seen in the history of warfare, the one wrought by the Mongols and their cousins, the Turks, both racially Mongoloid peoples that together conquered and capitulated most of the known world and created some of the largest empires in history. Overall, South Asia didn’t kow-tow to their campaign of subjugation.

    (As a side-note: the Mongols and Turks are the cousins of the AASI (an East Eurasian element) found in all South Asians from the Pashtuns to the Pulayar, so in a way, the more nefarious East Eurasian cousins of the AASI were conquering the West-Asian folks to pay them back in kind for the Aryan invasions by West Asian Aryans into AASI land. Tit-for-Tat and all that. Not so bad for the AASI folk. The Mongols and Turks avenged you, for they are part of your race as well.)

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  7. great argument. one hell of a post. even when I was on the parli debate circuit in college, I was taught repeatedly that the expectation for any good speech is a greater focus on the positives of one’s own points over the negatives of ones’ opponents. Of course this meant not ignoring the latter, but rather prioritizing the prior. I had issues with this, when I first started my freshman year. Maybe some indic influence in my upbringing 😉

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  8. One good way out of this conundrum for Hindus is not to violently control their women as Muslims do but to inculcate in their girl children a strong and lifelong ownership and attachment to the Hindu faith. Giving up the faith or converting should not even be an option for a Hindu woman. Such women can then marry whomever they want but they will raise children steeped in Hindu philosophy and religion.

    Certain big structural changes are required in the Hindu faith as well in order to ensure true equality between the sexes.

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  9. >>These high barriers to entry make sense in a defensive crouch, which native Indian religious traditions, which we now call Hindu, were after 1200 A.D. But they do not make sense in a nation where nearly 80% of the people identify as Hindu.
    High barriers to entry in a community have two separate pov involved:
    1. The community is so small/vulnerable that they want to avoid dilution/Trojan horse.
    2. The community is too big/strong that they follow purity based one-drop rule. Examples: Whites in US, (Sunni) Muslims in Pakistan, (upper caste) Hindus in India.

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  10. A few days ago someone shared the youtube channel of an Indian woman married to a Chinese man and living in China. The response to that person was overwhelmingly positive. Many Indian women are now married to Western men and dont elicit negative reactions.

    Clearly, the aversion to such content is rooted in a reaction to Muslim supremacism which is far from a spent force in the subcontinent. This has nothing to do with what happened 500 years ago, but everything to do with what happened 70 years ago.

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    1. Yes of course. With other races, it’s a 2-way street. With Muslims, they want to run with the hares and hunt with the hounds, they only want intermarriage as a way to expand their ethno-religion at the expense of others.

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  11. If someone is amiable to convert to marry someone from a different faith, than the question to ask is how much credence did they really put in their original faith to begin with. So is it really a loss if they ‘leave’, so to speak.

    As i have argued earlier, a smaller tighter knitted Asabiyah is always better than expansive loose ‘nominal’ Hindu Asabiyah. To expunge the ‘heretics’

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  12. If someone is amiable to convert to marry someone from a different faith, than the question to ask is how much credence did they really put in their original faith to begin with. So is it really a loss if they ‘leave’, so to speak.

    logical. but it’s really not that simple a lot of the time.

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  13. “Even low-IQ vulgarians aside, the “Hindu mind” is haunted by Islam. Rather than being proactive, Hindus are often reactive, whether it is to Islam, or to the West.”

    I think this is more understandable given the context that Hindus (particularly Gangetic Plain Hindus) find themselves in. Muslims are a demographically burgeoning kingmaker political bloc, and large portions of Indian and global elites are explicitly sympathetic to them. The other issue is that Hindu identity is still a WIP, the process of building an elite and overcoming the caste-based political blocs (SP, BSP, etc) is ongoing.

    Razib focus on Hindu demographic heft, but that elides a far more complex political reality. Razib may well be correct that Hindus overindex on this threat, but I don’t think its existence can be denied, nor the need for a reaction.

    If we do see existing Indian elites supplanted and various existing political blocs fade away, there may be a room for a renegotiation of Hindu views.

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  14. There is no need to fret much. As Ambedkar noted , there is no social problem which constitutional law cannot help address.

    You make the Hindu marriage act b/w only born Hindus and apply it retrospectively, and leave all other interfaith marriages etc on the purview of the courts. Once we have couple of adverse verdicts on the latter in relation to inheritance etc, you will see the whole bruhaha over Love Jihad, or Ganga Jamuni thing vanish.

    You don’t want something to happen, apply ‘costs’

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  15. https://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2020/10/15/country-which-bans-hindu-muslim-marriage-mocks-country-for-condemning-hindu-muslim-marriage-ad/

    The country, where it is illegal for a Hindu to marry a Muslim and where a Muslim woman cannot marry any non-Muslim, this week illustrated the intolerance of a neighbouring country where many expressed outrage over an ad showing a Hindu-Muslim married couple forcing it to be taken down.

    The country that was created, and then sustained, on the basis of Muslim nationalism, where the law codifies the supremacy of the majority’s religion, where religious minorities are constitutionally subordinate, further highlighted the bigoted, increasingly Hindu nationalist, neighbour’s growing subjugation of its minority, which coincidentally happens to be the majority in the former country.

    “That country is no longer secular,” said one government official of the country that was never secular, has no intention of being secular, and actually uses the world ‘secular’ as a slur.

    “The Hindutva ideology is a threat to the entire region,” said a security analyst of a state that codifies Islamism in the constitution, where even criticism of certain Islamist laws has seen individuals being lynched for murder, and where propping jihadist groups has been an openly acknowledged security strategy.

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  16. Indians – Hindus if we’re frank – were under many centuries of Islamic onslaught, then endured British colonialism and finally had a secular constitution imposed on a population which never asked for it. Give them time.

    It’s natural that the defensive nature will need to play itself out. I’ve said in the past and I’ll say it again, given that ‘race’ doesn’t even exist (much to the chagrin of our Jat posters) in the Indian subcontinent as a primary faultline in politics, it makes perfect sense to do the conversion game.

    India should just openly say, we’re a Hindu Rashtra and we expect everyone to become dharmic in the long run. If you don’t, that’s fine, but you will pay a price (monetary & social) and we’re being upfront about this now. That would solve a lot of these issues. Right now it feels like India is still in a cultural transition. Its politics has shifted but the elite culture still hasn’t.

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    1. principia:
      Are you European / or European origin?
      Interesting views coming from an European (the home of woke liberalism )

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  17. Your Article has touched my heart. Thanks for such optimistic article.
    Hindus have to confident and they must stand their ground in difficult situations.
    Saw Kushal’s podcast. His opinions were about the his older video about one sided harmony.
    The problem with ads are the reluctance of producers to make the majority get comfortable to the minority values. Be it Washing Detergent ad, this one or the Red label(tea) ad in which the the Hindu family were neglecting the Muslim women who was asking them to drink the tea and they finally tried the tea and viola problem solved just like that.
    My family is kind of opposed to this government( like all of the governments before) by consuming Media. My sister gets ultra reactive on The latest Hathras case and calling the sack of Yogi ji.( is this the future of Kids let me know…)

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    1. As u might know I agree with lot of points on Hindutva esp wrt Islam. But I still oppose Government (as I feel it’s approach will exxarbate the problem). I don’t see any disodance.

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  18. “If ritual purity is sacrosanct – a drop of Mleccha/yavana blood can be enough to make someone impure.”

    My extended family has folks married across religion. My grandfather’s closest cousin married a Muslim woman.
    (This was in early 70s when it was not all that common. But he was sort of a playboy and she was one of those commie artist types rather than a burqa wearing Muslim)

    My grandmother was pretty fastidious about religious stuff. So she never liked his wife.

    They eventually divorced and then re-married. The kids were brought up as nominal Hindus.

    One of the daughters married a Muslim. The other daughter and son married Hindus but out of caste.

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    1. My brother is dating a Bihari Dalit…my parents (Hindu nationalists) were a bit surprised but don’t have a problem with it. My female cousin also had an intercaste marriage.

      We have a strict noninteraction policy with Muslims though. No friendships/dating of any sort is permissible.

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  19. Razib is at it again. Sitting in Murica lecturing the low-IQ vulgarian Hindoos on the failings in their psyches when they should just man up and take on the Jihadists and their apologists in their midst. Others have said it better and I will lazily quote them*:

    *https://www.reddit.com/r/IndiaSpeaks/comments/jbnzbr/as_a_right_winger_i_think_indian_media_especially/

    “Several Hindus are irate about the fact that the Tanishq ad promotes love jihad. In recent years, several incidents of love-jihad have been documented. While the ad, and so many Bollywood movies and songs paint a rosy picture of interfaith relationships, in real life, Priya and her little daughter are murdered and buried in their house, Ekta Deshwal gets no warm welcome either, instead, she gets strangulated, beheaded and chopped into pieces. Countless minor girls in Sindh get kidnapped, forcefully converted and married to men twice, even thrice their age.

    The ad shows a rosy, happy, rich family where the Hindu daughter in law is loved, cherished and the traditions of her faith respected even celebrated. In reality, Kerala’s Akhila becomes Hadiya, Nimisha becomes Fathima and travels to Afghanistan to become an ISIS terrorist’s wife. The problem is, no feel-good virtue-signalling ad will remember these women. Instead we, the consumers, are fed a fairy tale that is far removed from the reality on the ground.

    Several such cases of torture, murder and rape have been documented when women refused to convert to Islam. In fact, this ad surfaced only a couple of days after one 18-year-old boy, Rahul Rajput, was brutally lynched to death by the family of his Muslim girlfriend.

    Therefore, the ire of Hindus is understandable and comes from a place where the ground reality in most cases is extremely different from the rosy picture that the Tanishq ad aims to paint.

    Apart from the promotion and whitewashing of love-jihad, there is another problem with the Tanishq ad, which might not be as glaring, but is there, nonetheless.

    In the ad, the underlying message is rather clear if one wishes to see it – The Muslim mother-in-law was shown as an epitome of humanity, love, sacrifice and benevolence when she decided to celebrate the god-bharai ceremony, as per Hindu rituals for the benefit of her daughter-in-law.

    The burden of secularism is often offloaded on the shoulders of The Hindu community – that is a given. However, it is a mark of our bigotry of low expectations when the smallest gesture by a Muslim is considered the ultimate symbol of peace and harmony. Essentially, just like the burden of proof is far more on the prosecution than the defence, the burden of displaying brotherhood, harmony and ‘ganga-jamuni tehzeeb’ is far more in Hindus, for some odd reason, than it is on Muslims.

    For example, a Muslim mob can run riots and bay for blood after an unflattering post about the Prophet of Islam, but, a video will then be peddled saying that a group of Muslims formed a human chain to protect a temple amidst the violence. Once that video emerges, the sins of the Muslim mob are whitewashed and the narrative changes to just how benevolent and humane the Muslim community really is, that they are willing to risk their lives to save a Hindu temple from the attack. What is lost in the cacophony is just who they are protesting the temple from.

    Similarly, after a Muslim mob had vandalised a temple in Hauz Qazi, a shoddy photoshoot was done to show how Muslims of the area were serving food to the Hindus during a prayer meeting that was organised in the temple. It was later exposed as a complete sham. But that narrative was there nonetheless – look just how benevolent the Muslim community is that they are willing to put aside their differences and feed the Hindus.

    What was missing in that narrative? The fact that it was the Muslim community of that area that had broken the idols, attacked the temple, and according to the Hindu locals, even urinated on the idols of the temple.

    Essentially, the free pass given to the Muslim community is rather staggering and the message that is given to the Muslim community time and again is that they have to do very little to whitewash their crimes against the Hindu community and prove themselves to be peace loving, secular and humane.

    They can run a riot and bay for blood, but 5 of them protecting a temple from their own co-religionists whitewashes their sins. They can urinate on idols and desecrate a temple, but doing a photoshoot serving food to Hindus waters down the sectarian hate that was unleashed against the Hindus only a few hours ago.

    The bigotry of low expectations is rampant and rather in your face. In the Tanishq ad, this is exactly the mentality that is reflected. If one is familiar with ground realities, one knows that Hindus who marry Muslims are required to change their religion to Islam and follow the tenets of Islam more often than not. On their refusal to do so, hundreds of Hindu women are tortured and faced with the worst kind of torture. More so, Hindus are killed frequently for being in a relationship with Muslim men or women. Rahul Rajput is not the first case and he certainly won’t be the last.

    At the backdrop of this, to even remotely insinuate that if a Muslim mother-in-law organises a god-bharai ceremony in accordance with Hindu rituals to make the daughter-in-law happy is some sort of virtue and reality of the Muslim community, on the whole, is a sham, to say the least, and a foremost example of bigotry of low expectations.

    It reinforces the message that the Muslim community needs to do paltry little to whitewash the rampant radicalisation in their community. This is not to say that every Muslim is radicalised, but, to project the exception as the norm without calling out the overwhelming majority is the bigotry of mammoth proportions. What is also problematic is that these instances in the marketing and showbiz industry do little to raise awareness about certain ground realities that have proven to be fatal for Hindus. What it does instead essentially makes Hindus wear blinkers that blind them to a situation that is rampant in the country.”

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        1. i banned the above individual. i need to draw a line so that the comments here don’t turn into tard-twitter. mostly a marker for other readers to keep their shitposting in check.

          tbf, i do genuinely think that people like the above are acting like (or, often, are) morons, it’s not hyperbole. so i get the anger.

          2+
  20. Diogenes:”The bigotry of low expectations is rampant and rather in your face. In the Tanishq ad, this is exactly the mentality that is reflected. If one is familiar with ground realities, one knows that Hindus who marry Muslims are required to change their religion to Islam and follow the tenets of Islam more often than not.”

    Tell that to Hindu women who want to marry Muslims and see if you can stop them. Hindu women prefer Muslim men because either they look good or have better morality.

    Diogenes:”On their refusal to do so, hundreds of Hindu women are tortured and faced with the worst kind of torture.”

    Lmao. 99.9% of these marriages are love marriages. Are you suggesting the women are waterboarded if they refuse to marry?

    Diogenes:”More so, Hindus are killed frequently for being in a relationship with Muslim men or women. ”

    Yes and you need to fix that.

    1+
    1. The reddit thread links to cases where Hindu women were tortured for refusal to convert or killed when they refused. Almost always Muslim-man, Hindu-woman.

      2+
    2. “Tell that to Hindu women who want to marry Muslims and see if you can stop them. Hindu women prefer Muslim men because either they look good or have better morality.”

      lmao. My mug disagrees with your assessment. And I’m far from the best looking Ror out there, trust me. BTW, I’ve only had positive experiences *ahem* sweaty sex sessions with MENA women who were raised Muslim/still practice the faith. So my circumcised dick disagrees with your claims as well. It’s seen a good selection of halal vag, straight from the source (AKA Arabs included). A veritable buffet, if you will.

      1+
  21. I think HM has a good point. No one bats an eye at non muslim stuff. Like in America an equal number of my male and female relatives have married white people.

    The way women are shielded from the public sphere in Islam, the consequences from their community from beatings to death to being married off suddenly by not being with a Muslim, etc. really makes ratio unequal. On the other hand, Muslim men are encouraged to convert and marry, even with mosques giving cash prizes to convert women of other groups. also with many cases of muslim men lying and using fake names to come off hindu.

    Lol no Khan dude. It is post marriage. These men lie and say they will let the girl have a career and her own religion. Then beat her to convert and enough cases where they commit marital rape to maximally pump out kids and maybe marry a couple more wives and threaten talaq. It’s those cases. And they aren’t uncommon. At least talaq part is better now.

    Like Razib said. Many are trained with vision of everyone under the ummah. Patriarchal means mixed with force and deception are the way.

    Look better? lol wtf you smoking. Controlling for caste and geography, hindus and muslims of India are same stock. Does mullah beard make one sexy? Better morals. Lmfao. What evidence of this do you even have?

    5+
    1. thewarlock:”Lol no Khan dude. It is post marriage. These men lie and say they will let the girl have a career and her own religion. Then beat her to convert”

      Convert after marriage? You know it’s not legal in Islam to marry Hindu girl? Anyone who married Hindu girl has already left Islam involuntarily. It’s strange that sort of people would care about conversion post marriage.

      thewarlock:”and enough cases where they commit marital rape to maximally pump out kids”

      You mean Muslims have sex not because they enjoy but just for the sake of expanding Muslim population as in population jihad? lmao..

      thewarlock:”threaten talaq. It’s those cases. And they aren’t uncommon. At least talaq part is better now.”

      It just makes divorce harder, but divorce cannot be stopped by banning talaq. The problem is not divorce itself, but inequality. Women should also be allowed to do ‘talaq’.

      1+
      1. Convert after marriage? You know it’s not legal in Islam to marry Hindu girl? Anyone who married Hindu girl has already left Islam involuntarily. It’s strange that sort of people would care about conversion post marriage.

        “not allowed” arguments are weak. ppl twist religion to suit their own interests. you know that.

        you can read about new recruits to ISIS shocked that some of their fellow soldiers were ass-fucking each other in their tents. it’s “not allowed” but these ass-fuckers still killed the “kufar” when the time came…

        4+
  22. I think this topic hits the nail on the head. I find that Hindus have a very defensive outlook on everything, and to women, a defensive risk averse attitude in males is not attractive at all. People here have attributed the resilience of Hinduism to the caste system, but what is the opinion of people that it continues to contribute to this defensive mindset amongst Hindus? Especially against Islam which is a very growth-oriented religion geared to look outwards. It isn’t even about race or looks here because Indian Muslims and Indian Hindus pretty much share the same genetic makeup. How can one group differ from the other so much? People in the comments above are blaming the proclivity of Muslim fathers and brothers to violence, I don’t believe that’s the whole story, since the same pattern is repeated even in Western countries where in my experience, Hindu women are more likely to date Muslim men than vice versa. I feel its the defensive mindset of Hindus which is less attractive, while the ‘dangerous/criminal’ attitude of Muslim men maybe more alluring..

    0
    1. Hindu women are more likely to date Muslim men than vice versa. I

      why do you behave as if it doesn’t get into the vacuum of the reality that muslims demand men convert?

      my parents didn’t care that my wife was non-muslim. but my brother in law went through a fake conversion because they demanded it (my sister is irreligious).

      hindus are defensive, and i think i explained why. but muslims are defensive too. if there was symmetry this would fade, but there isn’t, so it persists.

      asian americans (east) are often quite angry about dating imbalances, and express a lot of racism against whites (men) for this reason. so not surprised hindus are butthurt, though the magnitude of the intermarriage is trivial compared to what east asian american men go through.

      3+
    2. I do not know about America but in India, I clearly see a Muslim/non-Muslim divide in dating even in upper middle class circles.

      I must have gone out on more than 200 dates over the last 5 years. Exactly one was a Muslim. And she was a JNU Marxist avowed atheist so not sure if that even counts.

      I have ‘dated’ more Chinese expat and Parsi women than Muslim ones and I don’t even live in Bombay.

      On the flipside, I was talking to a Muslim male friend of mine and he told me he only ever got matches on dating apps from Muslim women.

      That was before he moved to the US where he has developed a thing for black women. White women apparently have unnecessarily high standards according to him. I’ve suggested he join the Nation of Islam but he’s hesitant since he’s Shia.

      Also, I think there are far too few Muslim women proportionally who are into dating compared to Hindu or Christian women.

      Christian chicks are the most chilled out of all. Most of my experiences with them have been fun barring a couple ultra-woke types.

      1+
      1. We have a strict Hindu vs. Muslim divide in the diaspora, but it unfortunately breaks down a bit as people go through education…wokeness is the true religion young people have these days, and “Hindu” or “Muslim” aren’t really that salient anymore.

        I know a few cases of Hindu-Muslim marriage…all the parties were fairly irreligious, likely their kids will grow up venerating not Ram or Rahim, but Ibram X. Kendi.

        1+
          1. Tbh I think I’d rather my kid go Muslim or Bible-Thumper than Woke…I’ve met all of them. Muslims aren’t too far off from normal people, they just add an implicit contempt for non-Muslims and stuff about Jummah and Halal. Bible-Thumpers are annoying and merge random Bible crap into their speech the way pretentious people merge Latin words, but it’s not the end of the world.

            Wokes, though…they will never give you a moment’s respite. Their struggle against you, against the world, against themselves, will never end. They want everything remade in their religion’s image, they want their religion brought up at everything from research meetings to Star War films to family chats. They are far, far more corrosive than any formal religion could dream of.

            2+
    3. I think you hit the nail on the head. Hindu women are more attracted to Muslim men because they are more masculine. I attribute this to the violence that is habituated from an early age. Anyone who has to slit an animal’s throat from an young age or and hear sermons about killing the kaffirs and taking their women develops them.

      Hindus can fix this crisis of masculinity but are unable to/wont/cannot. Dunno.

      0
      1. unironically this.

        not sure why non-veg Hindus dont get involved in hunting/fishing and other activities in the diaspora. but alas, theyre too busy yelling at Raj Jr to study for the spelling bee, and when Raj grows up to be a nerd, whine about Muslim TFR and interreligious marriages (which overall are quite rare – to the chagrin of boomer BJP uncle types who rant about Love Jihad constantly)

        1+
        1. 2nd gen is a lot better about this. For first gen, most kids I grew up with from Pak background were nerdy too. Granted a lot of them were urban Punjabi and Mohajir descendants. The crowd was very diff from Miripuris of UK.

          A lot of us grew up as nerds and diversified and became better as we got older, including myself.

          0
        2. i like meat. steak is my fav. BUT, a lot of meat-eaters are gross fatsos. really i think we need to deemphasize a specific thing, and focus on the wholeness of being a man in command of his full powers. it’s cliche, but lifting helps. a lot of indian and asian guys are pear-shaped fat-asses who were/are mama’s boys. there’s racism, but they also don’t “work on themselves”

          1+
          1. I concur with Razib. Lifting is a goldmine in terms of improving one’s fitness, self esteem, and “alpha” masculine image. I was fortunate enough to get involved with swimming at my local YMCA early on, and then started lifting when I was on my school’s swim team in high school. It was difficult to find time to do any sports related ECs in college because of my triple degree, but I always made time to go to the gym and lift. It definitely helped me stay strong, focused and fit. It also got me a bunch of MENA and Slavic p*ssy. Hit the gym my Bratas, salvation lies within.

            0
          2. yeah. I mean as you know very well, lifting transformed my life. Powerlifting has become my main hobby and my only release in residency. Rowing in college also changed things a lot and made me tougher in a lot of ways. I only did it my freshman year, but it changed me a lot.

            And yeah, like I you say, discrimination does exist. But it isn’t rarely the main reason. Improving one’s SMV is critical. Yes I know that’s a term from the “game” world, but it absolutely does have some relevance. Becoming richer, more muscular, more charitable, funnier, more optimistic, better read, more talented at music and art, etc. absolutely does make one more attractive. Basically being someone of greater value in general

            0
  23. This is true that men are required to convert if they have to marry a Muslim women, it’s a feature of Islamic law. Muslim society will forgive and ignore and sometime even cheer if a Muslim man marries and non-Muslim woman because once again – this is taken as a good thing which will spread Islam. Muslim women marrying non-Muslim man is a big no-no, families accepting it risk abandonment from their social cirlces.

    My point was to see this is a different light than just the usual explanation being touted here. Even if they introduce UCC or whatever, fact remains that it’s a feature of Islam to allow its males to go out, explore and conquer/convert.. and this feature is what sometimes makes a male more confident in flirting with non-Muslim women even because its fair game to them. I am not denying other social and cultural factors that makes Indian Muslims defensive just like the Indian Hindus.. but there seems to be a critical mass amongst Muslims that just does not seem to exist at all amongst Hindus.

    2+
    1. Prats:
      “I must have gone out on more than 200 dates over the last 5 years.”
      200 separate individuals? you must be either very rich or very attractive or have casanova level skills.
      Please elaborate on your methodology. For me it is just an academic interest at this point but could be helpful to some of our other brothers ..
      BTW, this illustrates the point that there many “upper middle class” Indias. My younger relatives from a similar strata have either not dated or only dated their school or college mates..The 15-20% of love marriages are excusively from the latter pool and not from apps. Although I expect the love marriage % to keep going up exponentially so who knows we will start seeing App-Matches too in the near future

      PS: You should write a post about dating/hook up culture in metro India and your experiences..Would be a good change from the other overdone topics

      2+
      1. “200 separate individuals?”
        Yep.

        “you must be either very rich or very attractive or have casanova level skills.”

        Definitely not rich.
        Medium attractive. Like a poor man’s version of Shahid Kapoor versus say Milind Soman or Arjun Rampal.
        You do not need Casanova level skills tbh in most cases. If you can make women feel comfortable, they will entertain you even if they don’t go out. It’s also a bit easier in Bangalore where there are relatively more independent working women.
        I have crashed bachelorette parties at pubs a couple of times. The women actually seemed to enjoy it.

        “BTW, this illustrates the point that there many “upper middle class” Indias.”

        I am a bit of an exception in my age group. I started going out as an anthropological exercise. Over the last 3-4 years, most of my friends got married and/or moved out of the country. I was working at a two person startup for most parts so didn’t have a group of colleagues to hang out with either.

        That opened up my calendar to these kinds of social experiments.

        But folks who are 25 and below are killing it when it comes to dating. I think it’s common even in slightly smaller cities like Ahmedabad, Chandigarh etc. Being on dating apps is like being on Instagram for these people.

        I think Tinder is now the highest earning non-gaming app on the App Store in India.

        “My younger relatives from a similar strata have either not dated or only dated their school or college mates..The 15-20% of love marriages are excusively from the latter pool and not from apps.”

        Do they live with family?
        People who grew up in Delhi/Bangalore etc and still live there have their extended social circles through which they can meet people. Online dating is relatively more prevalent among migrant yuppies.

        That said, none of my friends have married anyone they met on a dating app. Most married either school/college/work connections or went the arranged route.

        One guy friend is engaged to a girl he met via Instagram. Interestingly, it was the girl who approached him. The guy himself is pretty shy so it’s unlikely he would have ever taken the initiative.

        “Although I expect the love marriage % to keep going up exponentially so who knows we will start seeing App-Matches too in the near future”

        Yeah. This is already happening. Parents are not averse to love marriages. The bigger problem is finding the right person. Eventually, folks get tired and ask parents to set them up.

        “You should write a post about dating/hook up culture in metro India and your experiences..Would be a good change from the other overdone topics”

        I will try to. Far too many things there for me to be able to collate succinctly.

        Btw there’s some interesting innovation going on in the dating/marriage space. Services like Aisle and Floh are somewhere in-between dating apps and matrimonial websites. In-person blind date events as well. Lot of people are now lonely and adrift in the big city.

        When I was younger, I had seen shows like Seinfeld where the characters would date someone new every episode. That lifestyle seemed very far away. But it’s a reality now.

        1+
    2. Bhai Prats tu 7-8 saal pehle kidhar tha? Meri toh life set ho jaati, naukri, chokri sab tum dilate.

      Naukri as in startup, Chokri as in 200 women in 2 years.

      @justanotherlurker
      Places like Bangalore, Delhi, Mumbai and Kolkata are really fertile grounds. Many of my college acquaintances regularly find dates on tinder, I know of four who are in a serious relationship after meeting on tinder. But Prats should write more for the benefit of all mankind.

      0
  24. it varies among hindu groups. the key difference is importance of lineage purity for hindus is a feature that is way stronger than muslims. it does exist, but no one gives a shit that bhutto’s mother was a hindu. there are probably some indian hindu groups that care less about this stuff.

    the marathas a possible example. they didn’t seem to have many issues with taking muslim concubines.

    also, muslims may have an attitude, but the ‘host culture’ matters. in china muslim women marry han men, and the men often do not convert, and the children become han. i have known several chinese who had a hui mother or grandmother, and don’t identify as muslim at all (it only comes up offhand; one of my kids friends has a chinese mom, and her mom knew how to cook meat in a particular style because her own mother was hui from the northwest, rather than han from shanghai like her dad).

    even my boldest and most aggressive hindu nationalist friends often express views which suggest they believe the muslim propaganda of the religion being incredibly powerful. tell that to the chinese or russians, who assimilated huge populations of muslims.

    1+
    1. I think all social change in attitudes comes after political change. The same attitude which u see vis-v Muslim aggressive-ness vs Hindu passive-ness happens within Hindu castes like Rajputs vs Dalits etc. Or Jats vs OBCs etc. A similar thought process runs in North vs South India as well.

      Given enough time of political domination the attitude slowly changes. In India even after partition a sort of political equilibrium was there between Hindus and Muslims. Which gave Indian muslims false confidence and Hindus underconfident that despite there numbers they are ‘Equal’ . As now the politics changes and ‘Hindu victimhood’ changes to ‘Hindu domination’ , that would turn to social change of Muslims getting more defensive and cocooned, and Hindus more brazen. And subsequently it will reflect on subsequent generation.

      As you said the ‘host’ culture matters. The host culture of India was somewhat equal and not as totalitarian as Han or Russian in the social sphere. Once that undergoes a change and it becomes all ‘Hindu’ you will see the same dynamics play in India as well.

      1+
      1. think all social change in attitudes comes after political change.

        this is stupid. you know plenty of cases of the opposite. e.g., feminism or gay rights preceded legal changes. same with various anticolonial movements. political change is an accelerant

        0
        1. Razib, you’re talking about effecting a sea change in how Hindus view themselves and their faith. This is a society that can barely make a dent in dowries and infanticides despite elites being pretty united on thinking of those things as bad.

          What you’re proposing is much more expansive than that. Hindus have rarely had an outward-looking, growth-oriented approach to their faith. One exception is the Shuddhi movement in the early 1900s, partially spawned by Mukherji’s “A Dying Race,” a book which discussed the precipitous demographic rise of Muslims throughout the subcontinent. This movement actually had modest successes in terms of reconversions and greater successes in Dalit integration. But it faded away after a decade or two and is not heard of anymore.

          It would take an existential crisis or a unified and motivated new elite to effect the kind of change you’re thinking of. Maybe that will happen. I would bet against it.

          0
          1. This is a society that can barely make a dent in dowries and infanticides despite elites being pretty united on thinking of those things as bad.

            infanticide is a problem that is concentrated in the NW. the people in the south are hindus too!

            if hinduism becomes a less caste-focused religion change will happen naturally. e.g., the krishnas are now post-indian and it’s natural for them to proselytize. the case that illustrates this are nasrani christians. they are a caste and so pretty bad about converting/evangelizing. you hear about this from nasranis that are now protestants all the time.

            3+
          2. I think you’re right about the caste stuff…that’s the most salient difference I can see between us and the Russians/Chinese.

            The southern Hindus I don’t care about. They will never be major players in a renegotiation of Hinduism (should it even occur), and they may well be our enemies as they line up behind the opposing political coalition. Their political discourse is dominated by leftism and regionalism, they do not have to deal with Islam to the extent that we do, and they are just about as caste-endogamous as we are (so they will not be a lodestar on that front.)

            The future and fate of Hinduism is up to us, for better or worse.

            0
          3. At least in India almost all social change is preceded by political action. Reservation for Dalits, OBCs, social views post economic change post 91 etc.

            “The southern Hindus I don’t care about. They will never be major players in a renegotiation of Hinduism (should it even occur), and they may well be our enemies as they line up behind the opposing political coalition. Their political discourse is dominated by leftism and regionalism, they do not have to deal with Islam to the extent that we do, and they are just about as caste-endogamous as we are (so they will not be a lodestar on that front.)”

            Shots fired 😉

            1+
    2. It’s great. Hindu nationalist Twitter, Reddit and brownpundits are quite awesome for finding out how fecund, ruthless, energetic, united and uncompromising Muslims are. You would never guess that from discussing issues with Muslims.

      3+
  25. the most bizarre things are when hindus claim there will be more muslims in india in 2030 or 2050 than hindus. at least i thought it was crazy hyperbole, but after talking to some of the idiots it is clear they have never looked at arabic numerals in their life and “majority” means = “lots” or something vague and innumerate.

    3+
  26. not sure why non-veg Hindus dont get involved in hunting/fishing and other activities in the diaspora.

    Lol how does this relate to anything ?

    Also, I think there are far too few Muslim women proportionally who are into dating compared to Hindu or Christian women.

    This is the crux of the issue. A lot of Muslim women don’t date as they are more conservative in this regard than Hindus and especially Christians.

    Also true in the diaspora to a lesser extent.

    1+
  27. Not measuring d*cks, but I’ve dated/banged quite a few Muslim women from MENA countries, and all were brought up Muslim too. (My dating/fornication escapades have been limited to MENA and East European women as I lived in an area with a paucity of South Asian women in my age group.) Most were Iranian or Azeri, some were Jordanian/Arab and quite a few were from NA countries as well. Iranian, Moroccan and Algerian women (Berbers) can be super hot, I know from intimate experiences 😉

    I’ve never found my religion (Hinduism) to be a hindrance in dating women of any faith, but I will say I identify as a fairly liberal and essentially non-practicing Hindu. I was ordained in the faith, but as I got deeper into academia, I became quite the skeptic and eventually agnosticism turned to (quasi) atheism. That said, I always tell the women I date that I was raised Hindu, and I’ve never had any issues with even practicing Muslim women from MENA countries dating me/banging me. It might be my West Asian appearance that removes any barriers to entry, though I think my personality is pretty bomb too.

    Just matched with a Tunisian on Bumble a few days ago, I’ll be taking her out this weekend before clapping dem cheeks. Ironically enough, in what was my only rejection, it was a Pakistani woman that wasn’t interested in dating me as she was ultra orthodox and dated a chain of Muslim Paki men. She eventually got married to a Paki man later. She was a Baloch. No matter, don’t care much for Pakis anyway.

    1+
  28. i have seen instances when a hindu girl- muslim man marriages break, the children tend to become hindu!!. if you all watch the change of name in the dailies this is seen, although not every day.(the converse is true some times as in a.r.rahman’s case). there are also cases when a hindu girl is divorced by a muslim man, she will revert to hind faith.

    kushbu ( latest entrant into tamil nadu bjp has a hindu husband and hindu names for her children. saba naqvi (bhowmik), who has mainly anti bjp views has a daughter with a hindu name.
    so the fear of apostacy as expressed in western diaspora is not seen in india.
    gauri (sharauk khan’s wife) said today that he respects islam, but has not converted!!!, however has muslim names for her kids.
    things are changing. muslims cannot affort to keep their women locked for ever, at least in india, and they will marry hindu men.

    0
  29. there is even a non PC term: “ho-jabi”

    promiscuity because of how society isn’t as up in everyone’ business and concealing shit is easier, allows for a lot of covert shit. This is especially good for men looking for casual stuff because many of these women still want to marry a man aka public relations with a man if the same ethnic group and faith but are willing to have fun with everyone.

    0

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