169 thoughts on “Open Thread – 05/29/2021 – Brown Pundits”

    1. I miss his comments. Any chance to get him to return?
      (My first comment… I have been visiting the blog for about a year… I find the posts as well as discussion very interesting)

  1. Apple M1 is going to destroy intel, good thing Apple is not into selling chips.

    First it was ARM, then Nvidia, then AMD and now Apple what is wrong with Intel? It is firmly on the trajectory of IBM.

    One of my friends working as engineering salesman for scanning-tunneling-microscopes says they just chill out in South Korea and Taiwan for 5+ years trying to convince TSMC/Samsung to buy their $10 million a pop wafer-microscopes, his team does absolutely nothing at all for years! the tech they are selling today was made in late 2000s.

    The point is American industry is full of false heroes. The dragon will slay them and feast on their bodies. And the dragon does not tolerate pundits.

    Xi Jinping: “Researchers should reduce their participation in unnecessary social activities. Researchers should spend more time on scientific research, rather than unnecessary social activities, review and evaluation activities, & various formalist and bureaucratic activities.”

    1. Today I found out PyTorch’s ‘creator’ is an Indian dude!!!! He has a Bachelors from Vellore and an MS NYU, nothing stellar, but look at what he has created.


      Fuck me!! This proves there is just so much luck involved in life bhai!! This mofo is so young and kicking ass!

      I knew OpenCV is full of Indians but building something this important from ground up is great. Also this is what makes America great, the opportunities it gives people.

      Brilliant work! So proud of him (being Indian).

      1. I had always assumed Soumith was Indian-American. Didn’t know he studied at VIT.

        The amount of human potential that India wastes is quite tragic.

        1. Yup!

          Had he stayed in India, he would be wasting away at Ola or Snapdeal making 30 lpa.

          American capital packages their talent as
          the next Tony Stark.

          Bhai apna bohot chutiya kat raha hai. Na paisa, na ijjat, na future.

          Yeh sale swadeshi morcha, baba ramdev, CPI, kisan andolan, unions… itne bhayankar chootiye bhare hain yahan… Koi hope nai hai idhar.

          1. Add to that we might have a Congress-Commie govt next time around. I see the 90s movement all over again, just rather than liberalization we will have public-ization.

            In the 70s it was the banks , this time around it will we whatever private ownership there is left. And it will be championed by our lol-bertarians and New York based economists.

          2. If commies come to power, even I might be tempted to leave India.

            We are stuck between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand Modi ji will keep pulling off masterstrokes and on the other hand we have bona fide chutiyas like Rahul Gandhi. Then there’s also the question of who’ll succeed Modi in BJP.

            Make money Prats Bhai, and employ me.

            Haha. Abhi to I’m near broke after wrapping up my startup. Let’s see how the new job goes.

          3. The bout is Marwari banias vs Bengali baamans.

            Adani vs Basu.

            Reds have muslims as shock troops, other side has Orange Backward Castes.

            I think return of soft socialism is inevitable. Indians are a lazy, fat, freebie-loving people. Maybe Gujarat, Maha, Goa, Andhra and Karnataka will hold out because they have tasted blood.

            btw the daily laborer wage has risen to INR 700 per day in cities, idk who would want to work for MGNREGA.


            First time I was welcomed at JP Morgan Chase I thought they are going to swindle me (like the 2000s HDFC credit card people on steroids) because I was used to the PNB aunty ji playing solitaire while I stood under a tree as number eighth in a line of fifteen paying customers. Dhanya hain bharatiya banks, whenever anyone tells me their father works for SBI/PNB/BOI/… I instinctively think ‘Haramkhor’.

        2. This is something I have been thinking for quite some time:

          Space exploration is not as hard as American media portrays. Astronauts are just over glorified fighter pilots. China put a rover on Mars with ZERO American help.

          This is the kind of self-adulatory bullshit British used to say about the railways. The fact is that Japanese cars are far superior to American cars, the fact is that Facebook (the social network bit), Twitter and large parts of American tech industry is dominant because of massive capital that backs them not some amazing piece of code (like say google, or MS), the fact is that Boeing is in the business of operations research not aircraft building. Americans and the west in general tries to demoralize the world with its enormous (historically ill gotten) wealth and whenever faced with a real challenge (from East Asians) they shit their pants.

          Among other things we need courage to call their bluff. Make money Prats Bhai, and employ me.

        3. @Prats

          The wastage of human resource in India is beyond tragic. Indian kids are some of the sharpest in the world and we straitjacket the shit out of them, i.e. when we aren’t starving them.

          Soumith’s advisor Manuela is a great AI researcher. So he had top-notch guidance and he must have worked very hard to imbibe and put it to great use!

    1. ?
      Pakistani ‘geostrategists’ are like Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev, both parties come up with newer and ever more convenient points every week. And here I am struggling to put together a scikit model for over a month.

      My second favorite Pakistanis on twitter are the ‘weaponologists’ they are usually Pakistanis living in Europe who are experts on everything from SAR radars to EW pods to guns to best manufacturing practices… and the conclusion they draw no matter what the problem always remains them same, that India and Pakistan Army are sem-2-sem with advantage Pakistan.


      My Pakistani doppelganger has this to say on Israel:

      ” from 2000-2019 armaments supplied to Israel by the Western powers (US, UK, France, Spain, Germany) are documented at a hefty $9.6 billion. But within that 20-year period the same document shows this amount is dwarfed by arms sold by the same suppliers to Saudi Arabia ($29.3bn), UAE ($20.1bn), Egypt ($17.5bn), Iraq ($9.1bn), and Qatar ($6bn).”

      1. As shitty our babudom is and as delusional our national security folks are somehow Pakistani ones always find a way to equalize.

        This gives me confidence.

      2. Thought it was common knowledge that these “Pakistanis on twitter” are being run by ISPR. All Pakistanis have wanted since Kargil is to keep giving Indians new itches to scratch. Seeing how Indians react tells me they are doing a good job.

  2. https://twitter.com/ani/status/1398474427088531456?s=21

    “ MHA issued notice for any person belonging to minority community in Afghanistan, Bangladesh & Pakistan namely Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Jain, Parsis & Christians residing in 13 districts of Gujarat, Chhattisgarh, Rajasthan, Haryana & Punjab to apply for Indian citizenship“

    As I had said earlier there are “ Hindus “ and there are “ Hindus “. Once the Bengal election died down the bjp had to essentially choose between CAA( Bengal) or NRC ( Assam ). Good that they choose one in hand rather than two in the bush. This will end the chapter on CAA.

    1. Interesting excerpts from the article on asset poor.

      “The contrast between how the lives of the asset poor in Uttar Pradesh and Tamil Nadu have changed over the decade is startling. In 2005-06, the bottom 20 per cent of the asset poor in Uttar Pradesh were slightly better off than their counterparts in Tamil Nadu and many other states. By 2015-16, the asset poor in Tamil Nadu were more than four times better off than the asset poor in Uttar Pradesh.”

      “As a result of the little progress in terms of making a dent in asset poverty, the share of the five laggard states — Uttar Pradesh, Bihar, Jharkhand, Odisha and Madhya Pradesh — in the all-India bottom 20 per cent asset poor increased to 64 per cent in 2015-16 from 48 per cent in 2005-06. The population share of these states in the all-India population, however, continues to be around 37 per cent, suggesting their over-representation in the overall asset poor.”

  3. Revisiting Narasimhan et al – Part 1

    It has been a little over twenty months since the Rakhigarhi analysis and the paper on formation of human populations in South & Central Asia were published. The genome wide data from 523 individuals in Central Asia and northernmost South Asia (sic) were the basis for the conclusions. The Rakhigarhi woman was the only representative from “northernmost South Asia”. Consider that the 29th degree parallel north latitude is now serving as a proxy for the rest of the subcontinental bulk (75% of area below that line). It is what it is.

    However it is a tribute to the researchers that the aDNA of the Rakhigarhi find was successfully retrieved – given the extreme climatic conditions of India and the seepage of agricultural chemicals – fertilizers and pesticides – into the stratigraphic layers. Since then, we have learnt that Sinauli could not be retrieved – to be confirmed officially, though. Only another find is singularly interesting as of date – at Konthagai (Vaigai Delta) from the 4th century BCE.

    I have been reading these two articles repetitively to look at the importance provided to the social, historical and linguistic detailing . Some of the stated assumptions are quite pedantic – such as Brahmins being the “custodians of liturgy in Sanskrit”. My major grouse is that there is no leading Indian anthropologist, historian or linguist who could have checked the soundness of some of the assumptions. Vasant Shinde is quite the leading Indian archaeologist of today – but he is not part of the “Formation” paper. There are a couple of geneticists though – that’s the extent of Indian involvement.

  4. Revisiting Narasimhan et al – Part 2

    Narasimhan’s conclusion is quite definitive – “….nevertheless, the fact that traditional custodians of liturgy in Sanskrit (Brahmins) tend to have more Steppe ancestry….for a Bronze Age Steppe origin for South Asia’s Indo-European languages.”

    There are a couple of logical underpinnings to this conclusion – one he states and references quite clearly – the lack of a Steppes or Anatolian component in the Indus Periphery Cline from Rakhigarhi and the outliers at Gonur/Shahr-i-Sokta. Therefore it’s presence in the Modern Indian Cline has to be explained – especially where the Steppes component peaks in Tiwari Brahmins and Bhumihars. So through this small logical window, Narasimhan drives his AMT truck in.

    But there is another unstated logical assumption – that he slips under the radar and leaves the reader to figure it out. It’s quite important – in fact it is the one that is most susceptible to falsification. Should we understand that the entire Steppes component in modern Brahmins was the sole result of a Bronze Age input (his implied assumption)? What about the other attested invasions of the Indian sub-continent – Yonas, Yavanas, Hunas, Kidarites, Sakas, Achaeminids – did they contribute nothing at all to the Indian gene pool in the medieval era? Under what attenuating circumstances should we consider a zero genetic influx from the Northwest of India after the Bronze Age? If one adds up all the incoming genetic components during the Iron Age and the Medieval – they may significantly subtract from the contribution during the Bronze Age.

  5. Revisiting Narasimhan et al – Part 3

    A second source of misalignment reinforces my earlier point – “The strongest two signals were in Brahmin_Tiwari (Z = −7.9) and Bhumihar_Bihar (Z = −7.0).” Narasimhan fails to explain to the reader as to why Bhumihars and Tiwaris (among all castes of Brahmins) exhibit this peaking of the Steppes component. What historical episode caused this? A Western reader who doesn’t know the geographical and historical distribution of Brahmins might be inclined to fly with it.

    The two states with the highest proportions of Brahmins as a percentage of their populations are Uttarakhand (22%) and Himachal Pradesh (18%). Within Hindu traditional stories, they are frequently referred to as Dev-Bhoomi (Land of the Gods). A logical expectation is a geographical convergence of the “Steppes-peak” castes and the distribution of Brahmin percentages within a region’s population. Remember, Uttarakhand is twice the area of Belgium!!

    Instead the peak occurs in the Gangetic plains only – places that were the stomping grounds for some of the most gargantuan empires (Magadh) that the world has witnessed in any era. The Steppes component peaking in these two Gangetic castes (specific geographical area) indicates that there might have been another reinforcement mechanism at work. Perhaps the result of foreign elites assimilated into Empire or the digestion of mercenary army ranks from India’s northwest. I do not discount the fact of an influx during the Bronze Age – but it is upto the researcher to reflect on the coincidence of the geographical locus of past Indian Empires and the Steppes peak in modern Indians.

    There is another dead giveaway – which should have caused Narasimhan et al to pause. Bhumihars were not even considered as Brahmins until the 19th century – they organized to get this status from the British!! In their own words – they do only secular duties like Niyogis – administrators, landlords, tax collectors and soldiering. Mangal Pandey – the soldier who sparked the 1857 War of Independence – was a Bhumihar. They are very clear on this – they do not accept alms and they do not memorise the rites. A “priest” who insists that the others call him a priest!

    1. “Narasimhan fails to explain to the reader as to why Bhumihars and Tiwaris (among all castes of Brahmins) exhibit this peaking of the Steppes component.What historical episode caused this?”

      Ugra, if G25 Vahaduo is correct – it has been hypothesized that the people in the Gangetic region who are Steppe enriched have Ror/Haryana Jat admixture who themselves have the highest Steppe in South Asia.

      My source is a few users on the Anthrogenica Southern Asia forum.

      1. @Jezza

        Rors only have a community history stretching to the first millennium from Sindh. In that case, the time of admixture is very recent.

  6. Revisiting Narasimhan et al – Part 4

    My second criticism of the Narasimhan paper is rooted in a linguistic explanation. Koenraad Elst frequently admonishes AIT opponents that they wrongly consider linguistics to be pseudoscience and do not apply the critical thinking that it deserves. This criticism of Narasimhan et al incorporates some of that thinking. How did linguists come to the conclusion that the Rgveda was composed in India? I mean anthropologists point to preservation of Rgvedic concepts in modern Indian lifestyles, philosophers trace the evolution of modern Hinduism’s core to the text, scientists look at place and river names, historians try to glean out references to climatic phenomena etc. But what do linguists do to pin-point the Rgveda in place?

    They look at retroflexion!! Yes, this is the classic tell-tale “Apu-signature” that has convinced all linguistic schools to conclude that Rgveda could have been composed in India and India only. Add to it – the names of the rivers and places from the text – the evidence is both empirically and rationally complete. HH Hock (1996) summarizes this as the phonological contrast between dental and retroflex consonants.

    There was a fascinating see-saw battle that occupied linguists for most of the 70s, 80s and 90s. There were two schools – the Convergence and the Subversion schools. The convergence school argued that the retroflexion in Sanskrit was a result of bi-directional exchange between Dravidian and IA groups of equal power and the whole process was achieved organically in an infinite amount of time. The subversion school argued that retroflexion was an outcome of a unidirectional exchange between unequal groups and it took place in a short amount of time. The scholars involved in these discussions were Hock, Emeneau, Thomason & Kaufman, Bloch and from an earlier century – Caldwell and Konow.

  7. Revisiting Narasimhan et al – Final part

    One of the most fascinating features of the Rgveda is that it retains no memory of this linguistic mixing. All the way from the Old Books to the New Books – the density and spread of retroflexion heavy words are uniform. There is no significant uptrend from the Old to the New. Emeneau, the Oxford linguist, noted this specifically to comment that the Rgvedic composers were very comfortable and familiar with their retroflexion – they wore it like their skins! Therefore it must have been a convergence that caused the retroflexion in Sanskrit. HH Hock, earlier a subversionist, was won over by Emeneau’s reasoning and data. He became a convergence advocate.

    These linguists, most of them, have passed on and did not live to see the impact of genetics. But we do and we can look at the data of Narasimhan’s.

    If we try to figure out which South Asian Bronze Age genetic cline could have been the most fitting candidate for the composition of the Rgveda, it has to be the Indus Valley Cline – the Rakhigarhi woman plus the 11 outliers from Shahr-i-Sokta and Gonur. The magic ingredient is the Andamanese Hunter Gatherers (AHG) component – that must have provided retroflexion from a deep past. This is the only cline that presents a fit to the model of the Convergencers – all of them dead now.

    One could always plead that the incoming Steppes cline who mixed with the IVC people composed the Rgveda at a later date. This scenario stretches the limits of parsimony. Almost all current Rgvedic scholars (Witzel, Jamison, Brereton) agree that the Ten Books were composed over a period of hundreds of years. Plus the Rgveda is solidly Bronze Age – it has no memories of iron, cotton or swords. If this is correct, then it would imply that the Steppes people started composing the Rgveda almost as soon as they arrived in India – anthropologically and linguistically unviable.

    I am reasonably confident that the IVC cline were the composers of the Rgveda – heavy in their retroflexion and rooted in their homeland for thousands of years. I shall go as far as to make a bold prediction – that we will eventually find aDNA from BA individuals belonging to the IVC cline and possessing the R1a haplogroups sans any Steppes components. If that happens, then we shall revisit Narasimhan et al once more!

  8. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thesun.co.uk/news/15092073/grooming-gang-victims-failed-police/amp/

    Saddest part is that Pakdefensoids defend this behavior. They even think evidence of Pakistani heavy welfare dependence and evidence of lowest per capita income in the UK is just because these men are all so “cool and gangsta.” They even say the gang rapists do this because they are handsome. I have seen photos of them lol. And their inbreeding shows on some of their faces…

    The delusions run strong.

    I am happy our resident Pakistani is more reasonable. He is not a Birdari ethnosupremacist. Racial hatred and supremacy drives a lot of the behavior of the more toxic types. Occasionally, Q can come off too biased towards Islam and some of his views are under the racialist S Asian paradigm, but he is far better than the usual suspect trolls…

    1. \\Saddest part is that Pakdefensoids defend this behavior. They even think evidence of Pakistani heavy welfare dependence and evidence of lowest per capita income in the UK is just because these men are all so “cool and gangsta.” They even say the gang rapists do this because they are handsome. I have seen photos of them lol. And their inbreeding shows on some of their faces\\

      can you link any discussion or thread where these rapists are being defended and the aforementioned assertions being made?

      \\Just disgusting. Castrate the rapists and the Imams encouraging them. Ban 1st cousin marriage. Ban shariah law. Some basic steps\\

      You really think these child-raping gangstas are the mosque going types? 1st cousin marriage and Shariah law got nothing to do with this.

      For sure a lot of this is connected with racial hatred. But thats not just unique to Mirpuris in UK. You see a lot of that with other minority groups in other countries too.

  9. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thesun.co.uk/news/15092073/grooming-gang-victims-failed-police/amp/

    Just disgusting. Castrate the rapists and the Imams encouraging them. Ban 1st cousin marriage. Ban shariah law. Some basic steps

    “O Prophet! Lo! We have made lawful to you your wives to whom you have paid their dowries, and those whom your right hand possesses of those whom Allah hath given you as spoils of war” 33.50

    Problem is not this is even written in a holy book. Many old holy books have bad stuff. Problem is that people today, even many so called “moderates” take it literally because they think the book is infallible.

    1. Didi punished Modi for his sexist campaign and rightly so. She showed women are not to be trifled with and set an example for others to follow. Good for her.

      1. Punished is a strong word don’t u think. When the dust settles Didi is still the provincial leader and modi the national. Bit like all the hype around jayalalita.

        For modi Bengal is an expendable frontier which doesn’t augment much to his seat tally . He wins regardless of that state. For Didi Bengal was make or break.

  10. The modern latin alphabet is very suited for digital and print media thanks to the humanist return to Roman orthography designed for stone carvings (as opposed to the gothic scripts designed for handwritten penmanship). It’s unfortunate that Indians didn’t have a similar revival of Brahmi in place of Devanagari (and the various other Brahmi-descended scripts designed for penmanship).

  11. After much speculation, we now have hard data showing that Bangladesh’s income per head is $2227. India’s FY 2020-21 numbers came out yesterday and confirmed the economy is now at $1963 per capita. The graph looks like this.

    Folks were saying this was temporary, India would bounce back etc, but then the second wave crushed India starting in April, putting a dampener on FY 2021-22’s growth prospects. It would seem that Bangladesh’s advantage over India won’t dissipate any time soon and may even increase over the coming years. Hindu(tva) rate of growth?

    1. India gdp figure was negative 7 percent last year. I think it was good considering the negative 22 percent we suffered in the first quarter 2020-2021.

      Don’t see any quarters being that bad this year. So expect us to climb back in 2022 when 2021-2022 figures come around.

    2. @principia

      Will give you something to chew on.

      – per capita income of BD is 13.4% higher than India.
      – the Bangladeshi Taka is 13.8% cheaper than the INR.
      – the PPP per capita income of India is 33% higher than BD’s.

      I am actually a bit tired of BD takes bandied about like pot-fuelled wisdom. Sounds like most Brown Pundits are dunderheads when it comes to macro-economics.

      1. Well Brown pandits is still better than the trash peddled in Indian express and the Hindu when it comes to macroeconomics.

      2. @Ugra

        PPP = Poor People’s Points. Rest of your comment is nonsense as usual.

      3. @principia

        You know sarcasm in addition to junk economics. Whatta pleasant surprise!! The highest outflow of remittances from India is to Bangladesh.


        Its all those rich Bangladeshis coming to India and providing employment to poor Indians 🙂 Next you will be telling us that Mexicans have a higher GDP (Gordo Dedo Pistola) than the US and thats why all the rich Mexicans cross the border to help Americans.

  12. India’s covid cases seem to be declining just as rapidly as they increased.

    Vaccination rates still not very high. Anyone have insight on what is going on?

    1. (Maybe) Almost everyone got infected and anyone who could have died has died. Also, old people are getting vaccinated well, no vaccine availability for younger people.

    2. 2 scenarios.

      1) COVID moved to rural India, where numbers aren’t tracked accurately, either infection and death.

      2) Indian urban centers rammed up after their facilities, after they initially lagged. Plus lockdowns whatever be their economic effect, it works on slowing down the pandemic.

    3. I got vaccinated today and I can assure you that vaccines are not available in many states. The 22 crore figure is bogus since it counts first and second dose together. So far as the data suggests roughly 14 crore have received dose 1. And finally, Pvt hospitals are charging exorbitant rates for vaccination. The hospital i went to for the dose is charging ₹1100 per dose of Covieshield.

    4. It’s mostly because of lockdown. At least in Delhi, people got really really spooked and have been staying in. We’ll see a rise now that lockdown is being phased out. It’ll be start-stop.

      I generally don’t buy the herd immunity hypothesis (as applied to Indian cities right now) and am pretty sceptical of the representativeness of any sero-prevalence data.

  13. the indian judiciary is crawling all over the place, pontifying. it will be fun to see, when someone musters enough courage and question these judges about their working ( pending cases et al) and ask them when they will deliver fast judgements. this has to happen as a court application.

  14. cbse class 12 exams scrapped, by a committee headed by modi. this is start of real acche din. he will be emperor of india for next 100 years!!!

    1. Very good Op-Ed. India’s simply too weak to seriously rival China. In 1990 it’s GDP per capita was almost equal to China, today is nearly 6X lower. In 2020, despite talks of ‘decoupling’, Chinese suppliers are increased their share on Apple’s supplier shortlist. Quality simply cannot be beaten.

      At any rate, the cancelled EU-China investment deal was never in EU’s interests. The EU just pathetically got bullied into doing the US’ bidding (again).

    1. I do hope he becomes PM though once. We can all welcome the grand socialist raj once more. To the joy of our twitter and new york based commie-but-free market wallah economists.

          1. @thewarlock
            Saurav had said it before that he thinks that Indians would need to experience socialist congress rule again to properly appreciate the bjp. The same thing is happening in Jharkhand right now, congress won by promising a lot of freebies but corruption has increased so much over there that a lot of people are regretting voting for them

          2. They have already gotten the disasters of socialist Congress. Look at the fuck up Bengal has been since independence. Wth more do they need.

            And I second the other point brought up below. I wish Congress was competent to push BJP to be even better. Sadly, they are basically a Gandhi family corrupt collective and truly good leaders like Sachin Pilot aren’t given opportunities.

          3. Yeah looking at Bengal, and the fuck up, and what have the bengalis realized precisly? Zilch.They have only doubled down from commies to now ethno-commies and are proud of it. So yeah, i dont feel bad or sorry for them.

            Pilot and co are just young-er commies, who win not because they are ‘competent’ but because they are from the right caste and background in their largely feudal fiefdom. Dont go by their suave looks or english interviews. At the end of the day, a more son-of-soil Ghelot chewed him for breakfast, so he is both politically as well as administratively naive.

    2. It’s unfortunate that the gross ineptitude of Congress results in a lack of pressure on the BJP to improve itself and avoid falling into mediocrity.

  15. Do you feel the emotional outrage about gross inequality that you are intended to when presented with a striking aerial drone photo of Mumbai slums next to more prosperous neighborhoods? Or do you, like me, see something moving and egalitarian about the urban poor and the middle class living so close together, voting in the same elections, and having to negotiate and come to terms on all sorts of things? Instead of outrage, are you pleased by the economic opportunities that proximity gives to the poor? Some pictures and reflections on “Inequality Obscured” here: https://naimisha_forest.silvrback.com/inequality-obscured

    1. This a good point, for me…

      Scenes of very poor rural places untouched by modernity brings up sort of rustic, authentic culture vibes.

      Scenes of secluded gated communities near mumbai like ‘aamby valley city’ brings up pleasant, picturesque vibes.

      Scenes of Dharavi juxtaposed with different types of apartments, feels jarring.

      But the reality is the mix and people of different socio-economic strata living shoulder to shoulder is more indicative of economic dynamism and growth. Poor people without access to modernity and rich people locking themselves away in a bubble ought to be more concerning.

    2. > see something moving and egalitarian about the urban poor and the middle class living so close together

      It is not an egalitarian thing. for e.g. the posh societies are a world unto themselves – they have gym, swimming pool, markets etc. etc. So people living there live a different life altogether.

      However, living in close proximity gives one an idea of one immense privilege of being born in a wealthy household.

      1. There are hardly any ‘rich’ people in India, tribals bicker that villagers are ‘well off’, villagers bicker towns-people are better off, town people bicker city people are better off and so on it goes… think of it like how everyone thinks Marwaris sleep on piles of cash and Brahmins are the reason India got colonized. It is just jealous bitching and convenient rationalization.

        Compared to even American suburbia populated by blue collar plumbers and convenience store patels entire India sucks, even the ‘gated’ communities. In all but the very best of clubs, the amenities (pools, bar, snooker table, arcade,…) are much worse than recreation centers of 300th ranked American universities. The only convenience in which India shines out is in availability of cheap servants.
        India’s rich (top .5%) would be comparable to maybe 60th percentile wealthy in the USA. There are not a lot of rich people in India, people tend to lower the bar (Iphone ownership= rich, car ownership = rich, having a 400 sqft apartment = rich, spending $200 total on a week long family vacation = rich…) to create the ‘rich’ class in India. And why are the apartment buildings even considered abodes of the rich? Where else are people supposed to live? It is just a 1 or 2 BHK home that couples have bought with maybe a 30 year loan.

        1. ”Rich” is a very subjective term.. most people living in developed countries today are – on paper – richer than kings and nobles of the past. Some Peter living in London may have better health care coverage flipping burgers during the day and driving taxi at night, access to better community centers, better education that most people in the past.. but I doubt he feels rich right now. If given a chance to swap places with some 18th century royalty, I bet he would grab it with both hands, assuming no social ties are keeping him tied. Debt slaves in the rat race are not rich, they just have the illusion of being so.

          1. All I am saying is that the people living in high rises of Mumbai overlooking slums are not rich. We should not consider Indian IT people or government servants making 30 K a month as well off just because they can hire a domestic help or own a motorcycle or send their child to a ‘public’ school without any playground and with housewives for teachers.

            Other than nutrition and health care facilities. I do not think that the poor in India feel all that different from the so called ‘rich’.

        2. > There are hardly any ‘rich’ people in India

          Dude, talk about missing the point!!

          1. I did veer off, apologies.

            The somewhat related point I am making is this – ‘rich’ Indian people living in imaginary posh gated societies who are being contrasted with the poor in India (almost) do not exist. There are just poor people in 1bhk and poor people in slums.

  16. indiatoday.in/cities/delhi/story/cleric-rapes-minor-year-old-girl-gone-fetch-water-delhi-mosque-arrested-1809861-2021-06-02


  17. Absolutly trash!


    End of meritocracy…America is just going down hill. The article cites good evidence as to why anti SAT movement is bad. The SAT actually allows for more income mobility. Middle class growing up kids like me got a shot at the upper class in part because of objective measures like the SAT. Routinely Black Americans from Africa and even former slave descedents from the Carribean average better than American whites. The exam is not racist. Poor Asian Americand still do well. The exam is not classist. What it exposes is lack of scholastic acheivement in areas, such that students, teachers, and entire cultures of underachievements can be held accountable. It is a good predictor of college success and statistically has grown to be a better predictor over time. I despise American Leftists and ultra wokes. They will be the death of our nation. And yes I scored well. So call me biased or racist or sexist or whatever

    1. Canada only uses grades for university entrance and it’s more of meritocracy than America.

      1. So grading is better when schools have more uniform criteria. The US it is way too disparate between inflationary and non inflationary schools. But Canada is probably better with sustaining similar levels of good quality among its different schools. UK is too and has good system of A levels. Only the US is absolutely idiotic with all of the “Woke” shit always proclaiming that inequality in outcome can be 100% explained by inequality in opportunity, when in fact so many cultural factors come into play. The US is far behind other even anglophone first world nations in this regard.

        1. There is a problem of grade inflation in Canada, also education to my knowledge is a provincial thing – there is no equivalent to the Department of Education.

          Nonetheless, people from almost all races still mostly succeed in my opinion because of the nature of the immigration that favours more educated people than the US, so they may not feel as left behind as the Hispanics and African Americans do.

          The problem with the US as you state is the culture. These band-aid solutions never touch the root of the problem and veer into socialistic territory.

    1. @saurav
      Haven’t anything about him entering politics. Might be more of a mid-life crisis ? devotionalism per se wouldn’t be a bjp thing down here.

      1. I get that devotional need not mean BJP down south, but even the comments made on his tweet seem to belive that its about BJP

        In 2021, u actually cant be seen doing anything remotely Hindu, and not be associated with the BJP. That;s the power of Hindutva.

    2. “Also for the longest time i thought he was tamil.”

      Does anyone else here think Venkatesh Prasad looks a lot like CV Raman? (from his old portraits)

      1. Is that why i subconciusly associated him as tamil? Now u say it, i think that might be the case.

        I used to think it was because he played with Venkatpati Raju, and both their names sound similar so growing up i thought he was tamil as well. Later found out that even raju wasn;t tamil as well . LOL

        1. Rajus are the Rajputs of Telugu land. There are a lot of them in the armed forces. Apparently they migrated from Rajasthan centuries ago.

          They seem to be a proud people. My Raju friends tell me that in their villages people have SUVs with ‘Raju’ written on it like one might see in the north with Jats and Rajputs.

          1. Prats, the origin story is dubious. There is a broader trend of neo-kshatriya pretensions and that often extends further into fabricating rajput associations. I don’t think the authors of these myths really even have an ethnographic grasp of what a rajput is, but rely on the word translating well as a concept. There are actual old Rajasthani diasporas in the south such as the lambani which was discussed on BP last week. There are also what seem to be fragments of actual rajput communties in pockets who came as mercenaries in the 18th century. What they have in common is ample evidence of northern origins. Rajputs themselves having an ethnogenesis no earlier than the 15th century, it would be unlilkely that all elements of their culture would be so utterly subsumed by coastal andhra culture in so few generations, specifically given how proud they are. Even the telugu speaking migrants to southern tamil nadu retain distinction, not to speak of thanjavur marathas and madurai saurashtrians.

          2. In the North, someone named Raju would never be remotely asscoaited with anything martial.

            “Rajus are the Rajputs of Telugu land. There are a lot of them in the armed forces. Apparently they migrated from Rajasthan centuries ago.”

            LOL the Marathas of Telugu land. Every damn community…..

            Soon enough our Tamil Dravidians might claim ancestory from Rajputs. Or better, claim Rajputs orginated from Dravida . LOL.

          3. the origin story is dubious.

            Ah. Yes. I was trying to be tongue in cheek wrt the Rajput connection but it didn’t come off like that.

            One of my Raju friends (an army kid) used to be pretty proud of her Rajput connection. I remember one time the two of us were travelling in Jodhpur. The local police apprehended us while we were sitting by a lake because they thought we were upto something shady behind the trees.

            Then as is customary in India, they asked for our caste. I refused to tell mine but she quickly volunteered that she was Rajput. This was probably a bad idea as it seemed to have irked one of the police guys who might have been a Rajput himself. I guess he suspected a Rajput girl was having an affair with someone from another caste. Lol.

            Anyway, we told them we were outsiders. Took some convincing but they let us go.

          4. In the North, someone named Raju would never be remotely asscoaited with anything martial.

            What are you even talking about, buddy?

            Every colony has some Raju or Vicky bhaiyya who has the coolest Pulsar bike and who bursts the manliest crackers every Diwali.

          5. Raju bhaiya is most times the lacky of Vicky Bhaiya, and brings milk from side wala dukan as soon as Mom shows up. 😛

            Dont know, i just cant put a face on a don named Raju. Even Venkatpati raju bowled slow left arm, like really slow.

  18. Given recent gdp growth numbers people on heavily left leaning r/India were freaking out that 20 African countries are richer than India in 2021.

    Someone pointed out in another thread that almost all the African countries were richer than India in 1970.

    Somehow the poster blames the British for screwing over south Asian countries, someone else should point out how Pakistan had a >10% growth rate in 1971 while India had less than 1% rate of growth. (It wasn’t derided as the “Hindu rate of growth for nothing”)

    Indians more or less deserve the government they get.

    Also why are people on this left leaning subreddit so shocked that that some of the African countries are doing better than India?

    The two threads here…



  19. https://atlas.cid.harvard.edu/rankings

    I was checking different country’s economic complexity index rankings and one odd thing I found was that there was a large fall in Bangladesh’s ranking between 1995 and 2000, after which it has been very stable. Their gdp growth rate doesn’t explain this. Maybe it was just other countries getting better than it while it stagnated.
    Another thing I found interesting is that Nigeria is at the bottom of the list (its per capita gdp is more than India)

  20. Will modern science/medicine still be called ‘western’ when China beats the West?

    It used to ‘western sciences and industry’ earlier. Westerners and their coconut cheerleaders have already stopped referencing ‘industry’ as a ‘western’ thing.

    Maybe Slapstick can explain things better but it appears that UK has been thoroughly de-industrialized. I was looking at UK’s best electric vehicle startup ARRIVAL’s ‘microfactory concept’ and laughed so hard at the bullshit they are spewing, tragic levels of incompetence! Maybe Geely will teach JLR how to build cars.


    1. This is a natural result of allowing free trade when it’s coupled with a relatively prohibitive business environment. The same has happened in Canada, Australia and several other countries. – de-industrialization because of free trade, in exchange for short term rise in general standard of living.

        1. It’s pretty hard for Canada to *not* secure its borders.. like its ocean 3 sides and USA is the 4th.

          1. LOL! Not sure what’s outrageous about that, you can just go to a farmhouse in any suburb of Toronto and ”halal slaughter” any goat/sheep or a cow. Many Muslims do this on Eid ul Azha. Been to a couple myself, one was run by a white Anglo Saxon family, who were more than happy to collect some extra dough..The establishment just needs a license which is the only sticking point here, but according to the police in the video, the animal was dead and only being skinned, so not sure why the controversy

          2. Q. ” not sure why the controversy?”
            A. “The establishment just needs a license ”

            In fact the ‘establishment’ might have been an under construction mosque.

            Anyways, this is not that big of a deal and it is not my country, so why give a shit? Much more pressing issues on my own turf. My prediction is – unchecked (practicing) emigrants and refugees from Islamic countries will fuck Canada up.

          3. Well since there was no slaughter, this is just fake news for clicks.

            Besides 10%-12 of Greater Toronto’s population is Islamic, percentage is probably higher like 15-20% in many of the suburbs.. it hasn’t fallen apart.

            If anything, there is too much Indian immigration into Canada and this is already affecting the social dynamics.. immigration/visa scams, insurance scams, dole and other welfare scams, mortgage scams, covid test scams – Indians are involved in all of them, with Brampton, Ontario (Indian dominated suburb) being infamous hub of all these activities. Toronto neighborhoods with huge Pakistani populations like Mississauga, Milton, Ajax/Whitby etc are quite peaceful and serene.

          4. Indians are involved in all of them, with Brampton, Ontario (Indian dominated suburb) being infamous hub of all these activities.

            Is it an Indian area generally or a Punjabi area?

            Most people from India outside of Punjab who emigrate to Canada are working professionals. Punjab (and now probably Andhra) has poorer folks from rural areas moving there.

          5. “Well since there was no slaughter, this is just fake news for clicks.”

            Which bits are fake? Are you implying that the animal was slaughtered at a butchery and then hauled to this place to be skinned? Or that the place shown here is an authorized establishment?

            “Besides 10-12% of Greater Toronto’s population is Islamic, percentage is probably higher like 15-20% in many of the suburbs.. it hasn’t fallen apart.”

            Duh! you expect it to change overnight?

            Technically even UK is not ‘falling apart’ other than the ISIS recruits, Mirpuri rapists and this:

            Multiculturalism is a very bad idea, especially when the immigrants don’t share the values of the west.

            Either ways we shall see. If Muslims become model minority – no real loss to me, if not then I get to say ‘told you so’

            “If anything, there is too much Indian immigration into Canada and this is already affecting the social dynamics..”
            1.8 Billion Muslims in the world, 1.4 Billion Indians
            1 million Muslims in Canada, 1.4 million Indians in Canada.

            So your point is maybe true. But not by a lot given India is poorer than much of Islamic countries. Ratio of emigrants from India and Pakistan and their populations are almost exactly the same. I suspect this is because unlike the US, Canada does not attract top Indian talent.

            ” immigration/visa scams, insurance scams, dole and other welfare scams, mortgage scams, covid test scams – Indians are involved in all of them, with Brampton, Ontario (Indian dominated suburb) being infamous hub of all these activities. ”

            In my experience in the US, Pakistani diaspora have more scamsters per capita, are significantly lesser educated and poorer than Indian Americans. Indians living in India do scam Gora people a lot especially things like phone scams but even in this we have never had a roaring success like AXACT.

            ‘covid test scams’ ?

            “Toronto neighborhoods with huge Pakistani populations like Mississauga, Milton, Ajax/Whitby etc are quite peaceful and serene.”

            I don’t know about the statistics but you some of your details might be off:

            Mississauga has 11.9% Islam (including Indian Muslims) vs 11.4% Hindu+Sikh(~Indians)
            Ajax has 6.9% Islam vs 5.9% Hindu(+~1% Sikh?)

            Milton vs Brampton might be a good example. Again, I don’t know the details. If I knew nothing else I would happily take in a Gujju scamster over a Mirpuri or Syrian or Libyan any day.

          6. @Bhimrao

            >”Are you implying that the animal was slaughtered at a butchery and then hauled to this place to be skinned?”

            Yes, I am implying that. This is actually quite common practice, the animal is slaughtered and then taken whole to either the home or the mosque to be butchered and distributed amongst the poor and the relatives according to ritual. Some people want the convenience and get the entire animal butchered at the slaughterhouse but that costs more.

            Besides, I am just going by what the police has said, so why spread fake news? And why the outrage? Usually this is for consumption of city folks, people who have never gone hunting in Canada and think their meat comes from the supermarket.

            Regarding Mississauga, Urdu is the most spoken mother tongue in Mississauga after English, Arabic 2nd, Polish 3rd, Mandarin 4th and Punjabi 5th. Hindi or Gujrati won’t make the top 10. Punjabi is also spoken in areas bordering Brampton so it’s not really what we consider Mississauga when we refer to it locally. Ajax/Whitby or Durham region has a lot of Tamil Srilankans (Hindu), who are moving out from East Toronto, but not a lot of Indians.. Regardless Pakistani / Muslim neighborhoods are not known for any crime.. if anything, they are safer on average.

            There are hardly any ghetto areas in the entire GTA. Brampton isnt ghetto either, but pretty much everyone living here knows it’s scam central. Property prices were deflated in Brampton for the longest time and car insurance companies automatically increase your premiums if you move to Brampton because of rampant insurance scams. Pretty much every scam I have ever known to occur is related to Brampton directly or indirectly whether it’s brokers who facilitate it, or lawyers who guide you or bank employees who vouch your fake loan applications. Nobody ever speaks out loud about that as politicians rely on Brampton votes. The other shitty area in GTA is South Oshawa – which is junkie central and almost entirely White.

            >>Multiculturalism is a very bad idea, especially when the immigrants don’t share the values of the west.

            Perhaps, but uptil now everything is going good. Your experiences may have been colored by your travels in Europe, completely different set of immigrant demographics and the attitude of host population.

            Usually Canada heavily vets its immigrants but somehow seems to me that Indians coming to Canada may not seem to be the best quality.. a lot come as ‘students’ that come to community colleges, but then work under the table, live 3 people to a room and a significant chunk of them will be involved in scams as well.. In the last 5 years, they have come in overwhelming numbers. Situation was fine before 2016 but in the 2021 census I would not be surprised to see huge spike in Indian population in Canada.

          7. @Prats

            >Is it an Indian area generally or a Punjabi area?

            It is Punjabi dominated but also has a lot of Gujratis and other Indians. Gujratis don’t seem to be any more different or more successful than Punjabis in Canada.. I have met my share of the financial scammers who were also Gujrati.. they are just not likely to get into gangs or violence like the Punjabi Sikhs. And you are right, the Punjabis immigrating to Canada seem mostly rural, while Gujratis still seem urban.

          8. @Qureshi

            Idk I don’t think it’s about India or Pakistan or Hindu or Muslim. It’s about how the immigrants got here.

            Brampton is a shithole because it’s mainly populated by Khalistanis who came here as refugees and working class people. They abhor India and people who praise India or Modi even put themselves at risk in a place like Brampton.

            Similarly, you can find pockets of Muslim communities from Africa that came through non-economic migration in places like Rexdale that never plan on integrating.

            There are also Sri Lankan Tamils, who are involved in gang activities and the like in Scarborough — again, came as refugees.

            Hindus and Muslims (incl mainly Indians and Pakistanis) who have come to Canada thru economic migration since the 90s are doing well in the GTA and elsewhere.

          9. @Hoju
            Well there were thousands of Iranian, Afghan and more recently Syrian refugees to Canada, but none of them got involved in petty crime, gangs or running scam rings. Iranian refugees have even excelled. But on the whole, I do agree that it’s not about Hindu/Muslim or nationality, it’s more about the quality of immigration and refugees coming in. I was just replying to Bhimrao who was claiming that Canada is doomed because of taking in too many Muslims. To be honest, Indian immigrants (except the Khalistani refugees) were high quality until a few years back. Now it seems like the floodgates are open from India without much quality control.

          10. @Qureishi

            Agreed that there are some refugee groups who have successfully integrated and contribute well.

          11. I repeat what I have said a 100 times: The day Muslims happily marry their daughters to Christian white men, would be the day they would have ‘integrated’. All else is talk to buy time for demographic tipping point as France has found out.

            My experience is colored by what I have seen in Muslim neighborhoods in France, Belgium and Netherlands. I have never traveled to Canada.

            “Well there were thousands of Iranian, Afghan and more recently Syrian refugees to Canada”

            Iranians are wannabe-gora people and usually not even religious. But I do not believe your claim about Syrians. Maybe only the Syrian angels came to Canada. Iraqi and Syrian refugees are the second worst refugees in Europe (after North African refugees).

            “but none of them got involved in petty crime, gangs or running scam rings.”

            LoL! 2017 Edmonton, (2006)Toronto-18, 2013 Via Rail, Ahmed Ressam, Ibrahim Ali…

            ‘Iranian refugees have even excelled. But on the whole, I do agree that it’s not about Hindu/Muslim or nationality, it’s more about the quality of immigration and refugees coming in. I was just replying to Bhimrao who was claiming that Canada is doomed because of taking in too many Muslims.’

            We shall see, won’t we?

            ‘To be honest, Indian immigrants (except the Khalistani refugees) were high quality until a few years back. Now it seems like the floodgates are open from India without much quality control.’


            “There were just under 4,000 Pakistani students with Canadian study permits in 2018, according to official IRCC statistics.”
            220,000 Indian students largely for advanced degrees.

            links attached below

          12. Bhimrao, there is nothing that can convince you since you have not traveled to Canada so you are just labeling based on your experience in Europe. Europe has a history of treating its minorities like shit on top of all the colonial baggage so no surprises there if refugees or immigrants don’t integrate there. I wouldn’t myself.. they have a classiest old world mentality. Canada/US do not treat immigrants like second class citizens so they don’t have those issues.

            //The day Muslims happily marry their daughters to Christian white men, would be the day they would have ‘integrated’.//

            Ha so it all comes down to who got to bone whose women.

            //All else is talk to buy time for demographic tipping point as France has found out.////

            The Muslim demographics in Toronto suburbs and some neighborhoods of Toronto is now not very different from Paris banlieues.. yet the two are poles apart when it comes to crime. So obviously the Canadian model works, while the French are still deluded that they have some kind of empire or that people around the world look up to them. Nobody does.

            //Indian (as per Qureshi ‘low quality’) current student population in Canada, making up a 6th of all Indians in Canada//

            Bhimrao.. your link actually shows what I am talking about – Indian student population ballooned from 48,000 in 2015 to 219,000 in 2019.. This is an immigration scam being perpetrated while the Govt of Canada is looking the other way.. most of these students are not attending Canadian universities, but local community colleges that are in the business of attracting international students and charging them big bucks, not in the business of imparting any quality education. My business associate owns a motel, which he is now fully renting to Indian students (2 a room) who attend a local community college on paper (but are mostly here to work on cash). They will get a valid work permit and will get linked to a job which will land them the PR in one year and citizenship in 4. There is a whole Indian support group behind this enabling it.. nobody talks about it but it’s in open sight.. Trudeau already wants to bump up the immigration numbers and this way he is getting a lot of young people who are already here.. they are not necessarily the highest quality immigrants but they fill the labor need for local employers.

            Anyway, its a useless discussion. I am not against hordes of Indian immigrants, I just brought it up to show you the mirror that it’s not Muslims causing problems in Canada.

          13. “Ha so it all comes down to who got to bone whose women.”



            Your other point about ballooning student population is actually good. I did not think about it in that way. Indian students have been involved with call-frauds.


            Post-COVID I am expecting a big increase in the number of Indians moving to English speaking countries with affordable education that offer citizenship. Ireland, CA and maybe NZ will be flooded.

        2. “At least Canada secures its borders”

          I guess, but Canada also takes in an enormous number of immigrants for its size. Trudeau wants to bring in 400K immigrants, nearly all of whom will end up in Toronto and Vancouver. Toronto and Vancouver have real estate prices worse than NYC, but wages more akin to Eastern Europe. The economy is becoming a real estate pyramid scheme, with real estate being one of the biggest (if not biggest) sectors of the economy. The Central Bank and the homeowning caste (to which most politicians belong) are doing everything to constantly pump up real estate prices to exorbitant and ridiculous levels.

          Not exactly on point, but there are some serious economic concerns.

  21. @Q

    Honestly both Indians and Pakistanis I know in the US are mostly white collar class professionals who are law abiding people. Yes some are scamsters but their per capita crime rates are quite low. The poor ones of course commit more crime but that is true everywhere. The new generation is more atheistic, so less religiously superstitous, but annoyingly more “woke.” I think maybe it’s my own biased upbringing. I mostly just grew up around the professional upper middle class in nyc suburbs. I remember my family being poor in nyc but that was before I was like 5 years old. And at that point I had only lived with my parents from age 0-1 and 4-5. I was in India in the intermediate years.

    The scary thing tho that I admit is a more uniquely radical Islam problem is the creation of ghettos among its poor that are radicalization, crime,and even ISIS breeding grounds. The worst you get in a Hindu N American ghetto is pick pocketing, pan stains, and illegal immigrant exploitation. But maybe this is changing. I hear the bad elements in the Tamil and Sikh descendent communities are committing their share of gang violence atrocities in Canada.

    1. Tamil gang phenomenon is no longer a thing in Canada or in the UK afaik. Ended with the end of the Sri Lankan civil war.

      One counter to all the South Asian IQ stuff is that the children of this group of Sri Lankan Tamil refugees are doing quite well socio-economically (i would say on par with white ppl).

      Canada doing an experiment in mass immigration, much of it from India. And its a mix in terms of quality will be interesting to see the results.

      1. AASI heavy people have always poked holes in the racialist versions of IQ based arguments…they often say stupid stuff like more older indigenous East Indian blood makes one naturally dumber….

        Many non Brahmin S Indians do great in America. Sri Lankan Tamils in Canada. And Tamils of Malayasia and Singapore.

        Some of the smartesf Brahmins are Tam Brahms, the most AASI brahmins, as AASI as guju vania descendant like me ;).

        I am not sure where affinity for gang culture has come from and retained among some Sikhs in Canada (vast majority are not like this of course). Guys like Moosewala make catchy beats but also glorify guns, drugs, and harecore tribalism. Why that communtiy got most into that stuff, I have no idea. Pak Punjabis are midly into it too with guys like Bohemia. I mean some of the music is good. But the glorification of criminality is not.

      2. I am not sure if there is any immigrant group that isn’t doing well in Canada.. at least on paper. Tamils are not the exception.. infact apart from Punjabi Sikhs, Tamils were the only other immigrant group to form gangs in Canada involved with violent crime and extortion. Today, obviously thats all gone.. however if anything even Punjabi gang violence has gone down in recent years.. I am not sure how much of that is due to skyrocketing property prices in Canada that has created almost all immigrants (that came pre-2010) millionaires on paper, which disincentivizes children of those people from joining gangs and risking prison time for chump change.

      3. @Sumit

        Good point re Sri Lankan Tamils. While there were many issues in places like Scarborough in the ’90s, there is no doubt that they are intelligent and hard working. And with the LTTE stuff in the rearview, they are seeing the fruits of that work. I went to U. Waterloo (has the best regarded, or second, engineering program in Canada) and Sri Lankan Tamils excelled. Very intelligent for sure.

  22. Can Pakistani commentators verify the broader trends about cricket vs football that this anecdote suggests, got it from reddit:

    “Anyways, I had spent much of my early life in Pakistan before immigrating to Canada and spending the rest of my pre-teen years there. We returned to Pakistan for a 2 year period when I was entering the 7th grade, and so I was enrolled in one of the top school branches there.

    Now, I was under the assumption that almost every kid there played cricket. I fully expected to see groups of kids playing cricket during our breaks. But once break time actually arrived and I stepped outside to the ground, I was taken aback. No where in the ground did I see kids playing cricket, but rather all I saw was around 50-60 kids and 10-15 soccer balls. All these kids came out to play some soccer, and i could see several sitting on the side changing out of their uniform boots and putting on their football shoes, dull black boots being switched for bright Nike mercurials.”

    1. Its a good sport. India needs to do this too. Soccer is a better sport, imho

      1. Cricket is much more about responsibility and planning than flashy moves, there is a reason why the Indian middle class loves the sport. I think India is big enough to accommodate cricket, hockey, kabaddi and soccer, but cricket will remain the preeminent sport.

        In many ways, the locus of Indian culture has moved out of the metros where elites might be a bit drowned in trying to be international. However, as the incomes and self confidence rise, things will change. We can see this a bit in cinema, after a surfeit of wannabe NRI and yuppie movies, the stage has again returned to core India in movies like Dangal and Baahubali.

  23. Yes football’s popularity has risen in Pakistan, just like Hollywood.. compared to say 20 years ago when nobody cared about it. Rise of EPL, UEFA CL and other regular competitions have done a lot to promote it. However this is not the correct example to portray it. I played football during school as well, and we hardly ever played cricket, even though most of us preferred to play cricket more. It was just logistics.. you can’t play a cricket game during a 20 minute break.. whoever wins the toss, that person will bat out the entire break time while everyone else is just fielding, watching it. It’s a complete waste of time playing cricket in school.

    However if you wanna see what kids prefer to play, see what they play on the street when they have enough time to complete a match.. it’s almost always cricket and usually never football. Football is mostly still an elite sport in Pakistan.. and until and unless there is a national team that does well in international competition, I think it will continue to remain an elite sport.

    1. @Quereishi

      Elite preferences have downstream effects on culture, so it being an “elite” sport in Pakistan doesn’t necessarily doom it. Importantly, football is very cheap. Unlike sports like golf or even tennis to some extent, which tend to have a more elite audience, it is trivially easy for the poor to get going with football. You don’t even need proper boots. You can play barefoot and just paint some wall as a goal (that is how many stars in Brazil were created). Cricket still rules in India, but EPL is now very big there, judging by TV ratings. If it can happen in India, why can’t it happen in Pakistan or Bangladesh?

      More generally, a major problem for football is that elite competitions are still dominated mostly by either Europe or Latinx America. Africa has great players but for whatever reason it seems that they don’t play together so well (no African team has made it past the quarter final in FIFA world cup competitons). Asia is an even bigger disappointment. Xi Jinping invested a lot into football and tried to bring the Chinese team up to par but it just haven’t seemed to work. Some people used quasi-racial theories (Chinese being too puny or whatever) but most Latinx Americans aren’t exactly very tall either.

      There are increasing Asian football fans, but we now need Asian star players and ultimately teams at some level. I don’t think cricket will ever be displaced by football in South Asia but it has a decent shot to get to a solid second place in the best case scenario. That would still be a major impact.

      1. You are right.. elite effect can trickle down, but the problem is that the elite has not given up cricket in favor of football..they still own it and play it, so playing football is not aspirational for other middle classes.. Football in Pakistan is like cricket in England.. elite plays both sports but hasn’t really given up on the other.

        Cricket does not require a lot of expensive equipment either, playing tape ball cricket is extremely cheap (I would say cheaper than football). True that you have to invest in a cricket kit and a bat if you want to play hardball but then so do you have to spend on football spikes and shin pads for football when you want to take it to the next level as well.

        On the street and on concrete, cricket is a better sport to play for kids.. you don’t want kids playing football on concrete, it’s just a hazard.

        I don’t think the racialist theories have any merit.. football and cricket are not sports where racial differences can have a limiting factor.. maybe basketball or ice hockey.. I do think football will become the second most popular sport in South Asia, but unless the cricketing authorities really fuck it up with cricket, cricket is not dying.

    2. “It was just logistics.. you can’t play a cricket game during a 20 minute break.. whoever wins the toss, that person will bat out the entire break time while everyone else is just fielding, watching it. It’s a complete waste of time playing cricket in school.”

      LOL, its so similar to how it happened in my school too. In my Jesuit school which had reservation for tribals, the whole football team was dominated by tribals, while non tribals dominated cricket

    3. Pretty similar situation in my school.
      Till about class 7th, we used to play football during recess with a tennis ball in the basketball court because all the other playing surfaces including the tennis court and the actual football ground would be occupied by senior students. Then we became the seniors.

      At home, I had two distinct set of friends. One was ‘people like us’ who had like a 50-50 preference for cricket and football. The other was made up of my neighbours who were a mix of rich doctor kids and some lower middle class folks. They’d get into football if the world cup or Euros came around but then revert back to cricket.

      1. We used to have game week or something during Feb though, where we have whole week for annual school games, where we had school just for games. That;s when we used to play like 5 day test cricket.

    4. Well cricket was an elite sport once as well. What triggered the original curiosity in me was the declining performance of Pakistan’s U-19 cricket team. Pakistan havent been doing all that great in this competition of late, the last time they won it was in 2006.

  24. Bihar considers reserving 30% of seats for women in engg and medical colleges

    I used to think that affirmative action was an Indian obsession as there was a period in the late 1990s and early 2000s when it seemed going out of favour in the US. But then the woke cultural revolution happened and now even Brazil is getting crazier and crazier on reservation. India shows no intent of slowing down either.

    It appears to be inherent in large, heterogeneous democracies, especially rife with social conflict. I am in principle against all affirmative action, but it seems to be electorally impossible to get rid of. A hard nut to crack.

  25. Currently on Clubhouse on Razib’s dicussion on genetics

    Going by the room, is it just me or the amount of non Indian folks intrested in Indian genetics seems so off to me?

    1. Consider how complete the defeat would have been if on top of everything China was democratic too. That would have felt worse (to me).

      1. @Bhim

        If u are on twitter our future pakistani NSA is hosting a space on India’s ‘ two and half front war’ 🙂

        1. Hehehe…

          Na bhai, not enough time in life. I do visit Omar ji’s Twitter for entertainment.

  26. ‘Prime Minister Imran Khan said on Friday that Pakistan is ready to restart talks with India if Delhi provides a roadmap towards restoring the previous status of occupied Kashmir.

    “Even if they give us a roadmap, that these are the steps that we will take to basically undo what they did, which is illegal, against international law and United Nations resolutions … then that is acceptable,” Imran Khan’

    India is wasting Pakistan’s time, letting off steam so that they do not resort to terrorism and we do not have to bomb them (and get our ancient Airforce shot down). There is no resolution to Kashmir or any territorial dispute tbh, finders-keepers, jiski laathi uski bhains, so why does Pakistan even bother to talk? (a) They are bored and have nothing else to do (b) They are under pressure to act nice from lenders (c) Display solidarity to keep things warm? (d) idk and don’t care.

    IMO the Pakistani PM should not spend time/energy on this, Indian PMs used to waste so much diplomatic capital on pointless grandstanding about nuclear dis-armament in general assembly, time they could have used to discuss economics and industry.


    In other news, NSA of Pakistan is doing the usual time-pass again,

    “[The] United States has assured us that Pakistan will not be made a scapegoat amidst the withdrawal [of US troops] from Afghanistan, but only time will tell whether [they stay true to their word] as history suggests otherwise,” he remarked.

    I miss Sushma Swaraj, she would have wasted so much more time of Pakistanis with ‘hum iski kadi ninda karte hain’.

    The Gujrati duo and their Tamil-Mallu sidekicks are too direct, thank god we still have Rajnath.

    1. Well Sushma has been duely compensated on Pakistan side by Shah of Multan now. He is just like the better version of Sushma. Though the Tamil side kick is picking up now, he is mastering the art of talking bollocks, since he hardly has any poltical capital.

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