Open Thread – Brown Pundits – 3/18/2022

A comment on the earlier open thread:

Interested to know what Razib and Omar sahab think of Holi, any experiences Razib?

I don’t have any experience and did not know it was Holi. Thanks for telling me!

I was going to visit India for business in 2020, but then COVID-19 happened, so I have never been to India. I have only been to Bangladesh twice in the last 40 years, so it did not overlap with Holi.

90 thoughts on “Open Thread – Brown Pundits – 3/18/2022”

  1. Though there are many origin stories for Holi, ironically the festival might have started in current day Pakistan

    ‘Across the border and in other parts of the world, as the Hindu community celebrated Holi year after year with great fanfare, the temple where the festival of colours was believed to have originated seemed to have lost memory of it. What hundreds of years of civilisation, with its invasions and changing dynasties could not achieve was achieved by a few years of Partition – the mythological tale of Prahlada, the child-saint who defeated his father, the tyrannical king of the city, Hiranyakashipu, were never repeated in this temple or the city.’

    1. Hardoi (claimed actual name ‘Hari-drohi’ meaning ‘Enemy of the God’) in UP too makes a claim with all the associated places and stories. I am sure there will be others too.

    2. Not surprising , I mean its UP we are talking about. Anything and everything Hindu originated from it 😉

  2. I have participated in Holi a few times, including once in Saudi Arabia (where we threw color around on the beach with a big group of Indian friends) and once in Lahore (at a farm house where some liberal Pakistanis were celebrating holi). But I have not had the chance to drink bhang on Holi (yet)..

    1. One wud think that bhaang wud be freely available in Pakistan. And you cud atleast get it in Maryland (where I presume you preside now).

  3. Has anybody paid attention to the reaction to the movie “The Kashmir Files”, about the ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Pandits/Hindus? What’s everyone’s thoughts about the movie and public reaction?

    Any chance Razib, Omar, and other Brown Pundits people are going to check this out?

  4. BIMARU states will have 320/888 seats in LS, 36% say in parliament with just 14% contribution to GST.
    GJ, MH, TN, KA contribute 45% of GST and 218/888 seats, just 24% say in LS. Development, population control have no meaning . Flawed delimitation process .

    Interesting take on the next approaching political churn. The alternative argument is that GST is not a efficient parameter for political assessment. If population control, tax paying contribution and HDI equivalents are taken into account – the delimitation will take on a different distribution.

    1. Now I’ve seen everything…a leftist arguing that political representation should be predicated on financial worth.

    2. lol a RW Govt with Hindi EthoNationalist undercurrents isn’t going to care about fairness. In any case, GJ,MH,KA are pro-BJP states, they brought this upon themselves by supporting the Hindi hegemony.

  5. For Razib and others:

    What is the genetic distance between Europeans and South Asians, and is this genetic distance smaller than the distance between NE Asians and SE Asians?

    Also, as I understand it, AASI is the new “indigenous” term being used to describe what South Asians are admixed with — am I correct in understanding that this “AASI” component is a fully East Eurasian component that is a part of the larger East Eurasian family tree? In other words, having AASI admixture is essentially equivalent to having SE Asian admixture?

    I have watched a presentation by Dr. David Reich on YouTube wherein he states that the Han Chinese can be successfully used as a proxy for AASI and have read reports/papers claiming that it is a fully SE Asian component, branching off from a common ancestor of all East Eurasians at the same time as other East Eurasian strains.

    Does this mean that AASI is just another East Eurasian strain like the natives of the Americas, or the SE Asians, or NE Asians, but with a unique appearance due to evolving in a different environment in South Asia? Kind of like how all other East Eurasian strains look different from each other despite descending from a common ancestor? In that sense, the term “South Asian” is truly apt, as it would mean that AASI is simply another branch of the vast East Eurasian “race” that extends across all continents in different “phenotypes” yet shares common descent and ancestry.

  6. most annoying thing are s asian muslims who want to figure out if they have west asian ancestry. you probably don’t, and that’s ok. losers (they always msg me)

    1. I’m sorry, was that in reference to my comment? I’m a Hindu/Tamil, but I have no issues with any South Asians, Muslim or otherwise. As for West Asians, my interest in them is non-existent. Honestly didnt even know what the term means until you mentioned it, I used to call them Middle Eastern.

      Just curious to know what we ‘are” as South Asians — other Asians say that “we’re not really Asian” — which is why I would really appreciate it if someone could break down exactly what “AASI” is genetically — am I correct in understanding that it is indeed a fully East Eurasian genetic component like other SE Asians? After all, the Han Chinese can be used as a proxy for AASI.

      If so, why are some other Asians so averse to the idea of South Asians being Asians as well? I’ve faced more bullying than I can fathom from some idiots regarding our appearance and how we’re not really Asians. Just because our phenotype was altered due to evolving in a separate environment doesn’t deny us our Asian-ness. After all, other Asians (be they SE Asians, Natives of the Americas, NE Asians, etc) also look different from each other. It’s honestly something that rubs me the wrong way, its like people denying the facts and bullying others despite what the facts say. And are South Asians closer to Euros than NE Asians are to SE Asians genetically? Its relevant to the pushback South Asians get from other East Eurasians when they claim their “Asian-ness”.

      I ask you, because you seem to be the Oracle when it comes to topics related to South Asians and genetics. Thank you for your assistance.

      1. I’m sorry, was that in reference to my comment?


        which is why I would really appreciate it if someone could break down exactly what “AASI” is genetically — am I correct in understanding that it is indeed a fully East Eurasian genetic component like other SE Asians? After all, the Han Chinese can be used as a proxy for AASI.

        they’re on the branch that leads to other ‘east eurasians.’ but they are closer to andamense and other southern east eurasians, as opposed to northeast eurasians. the bifurcation btwn AASI and andamanese is 35,000 years. btwn east asians and AASI perhaps more than 40,000 years.

        . And are South Asians closer to Euros than NE Asians are to SE Asians genetically? Its relevant to the pushback South Asians get from other East Eurasians when they claim their “Asian-ness”.

        hm. i’m in between. lots of high caste and northwest indians are closer to europeans.

        1. Thank you Dr. Khan. I just read that Onge/Andamanese are ancestral to Tibeto-Burmans and all East Asians in general, and that they are around 45-50% Han. They also split from all East Eurasians at the same time (so the distances should be similar for AASI, NE Asians, SE Asians etc). Onge shares a closer relationship to the development of Mongoloid East Eurasians than it does to AASI East Eurasians.

          Since Han can be used as a proxy for AASI, and since Onge has Han affinity, it is then normal that AASI will be somewhat close to Andamanese and other East Eurasians, as all East and particularly SE Asians are equally “close” to it. It doesnt mean that we are mixed with Onge/Papuans/Aboriginals or that we are left out of the East Eurasian “race”, anymore than NE and SE Asians are mixed with Onge/Papuans (none of us are). It seems to me that AASI is thus indeed part of the East Eurasian cluster/family tree and so our Asian-ness is uncontested, no different from other South East Asians. Perhaps this information is hard to swallow for other Asians, particularly Mongoloid ones, but it is what it is. We all look different due to evolutionary reasons, but genetically AASI is purely East Eurasian, and part of the SE Eurasian diversity. We are simply brown Asians.

          I will follow-up with you regarding a specific query through email if you have time. I appreciate your guidance.

  7. Dozens of videos floating on twitter purportedly showing folks (including women) pants down, tied to a pole, and being flogged by Ukrainians. Too much info war going on but if this had been Afghanistan everyone knows how much scrutiny, restraint, and understanding would have been shown by western propaganda machines like NYT, WaPo, BBC…

    Gora folks on twitter especially big names in academia and think-tanks live in this weird fantasy-world where their views, howsoever convenient and self-serving, are always logical and morally-sound. Maybe a remnant of American ‘confidence’ showing through, maybe just shameless power grab. Either ways very ineffective.

  8. Do any mainstream Vaishnava groups allow or encourage bhang / drug consumption for spiritual realization?

    I know Shaivaite tantra types are into drugs for spiritual realization etc. But afaik intoxicants are a big no-no in Vaishnava sects. Just curious if I am missing out on some groups.

  9. @Saurav, Prats

    Bhai ka Google X, mein laga aaj naukri. Paise se nehla denge, ekdum g****phad kaam bhi hai. Maja aa gaya yaar, today is a good day. Not accepting the offer.


    “I guess ur nominally liberal folks are like my parents. Till Congress was in power, they had no issues with Congress (being secular and stuff) and use to laugh of BJP as a delusional party. Now they are more right wing … Feel most of it is still internal coping mechanism.”


    People don’t have principles. Bin pendi ke lote. Sab bakchod hain.


    1. SALA, kitna talented ho be tum log. Congrats!

      Here my own career has become ‘ Bin pendi ke lota’. Perennially longing to move to India, and just being physically present in USA, while mentally being in India…

      1. Congrats Bhim bhai!
        Why are you not accepting the offer?

        I have not followed Google X much lately but reading up, seems they are doing quite a lot of interesting hard engineering work.

        I think in 2-3 years time hopefully my ESOPs will accrue some value. Then I’ll join one of these places that has good benefits and parental leave before starting a family.


        Saurav – what’s stopping you from returning to India?
        How far away are you from getting a green card?

        1. Dont know, just lack the courage to move back. Too far away from GC. Stuck in a dead end job, pays the bills, so stuck here. Have less and less motivation to work or even switch to something better.

          Parents getting old, and got a nasty scare during the COVID second wave.

        2. Yaar phat toh bahut rahi hai, heavy monetary nuksan hoga over 4-5 saal by not joining. Ghar wale bol rahe hain ki ‘tu chutiya hai kya?’. It was the most difficult decision. Among other things:
          1) I have a good eye for when a team is engrossed in deep work and when they are just putting on a show. Endured this prestige-drama in academia, never putting up with it this again. Hollows out self-confidence.
          2) Makani, Loon are already closed. Wing is limping along. The main guy at Taara left. Daydream discontinued. Intrinsic and Everyday Robots do bakchodi and under deliver. Other than Brain and Waymo no roaring successes.
          3) On a high level Alphabet knows they have to innovate so they push hard with X, but on team and individual contributor level I think other folks are far bold and driven. Google folks are there for the salary, talented but soft.
          4) What I do right now is objectively superior work. Boils down to getting more ML-ey and become god tier at coding while pretending to care about work at Google vs staying put and building something very useful and enduring.
          5) Location Mountain View on-site, non-negotiable. Complicates things.

  10. India is doing real politik and hedging its bets.

    India probably does not think the US is a reliable partner specially in the event of a conflict with China. US unreliability is an easy call, give its leaving Ukraine to fend for itself after many promisea.
    On the other hand India has deep economic ties to the US. Software, computer services, exports of pharmaceutical to Mahendra tractors. So India becomes a partner in the Quad, the coalition meant to keep the peace in the Indo Pacific. In reality a coalition to encircle China. I guess India is betting there very likely direct confrontation of the Quad with China.

    In the case of Russia, India probably thinks is better partner in case of a conflict with China. Not so much as military aid, but to mediate peace between china and India in case border conflicts get out of hand. Plus India does purchase much arms from Russia, possibly because cheaper and simpler to maintain, even if there is a question of reliability.

    So India thumbs its nose at US sanctions against Russia

    Sanctions for little guys like SL, no sanctions for big guys like India.
    they recognize its (Indias) heavy reliance on Moscow for everything from arms and ammunition to missiles and fighter jets. In other words, India quietly gets a carte blanche to continue trading with Russia in violation of western sanctions.
    In other words, all sanctions are created equal, but some are more equal – and can ignore the sanctions – than others.

    1. I think the whole bruhaha is really about india”s double vote of abstaining in UN. Had India voted with the west and bought oil after, pretty sure it won’t have been issue. After all india”s oil import from Russia is still minuscule, in comparison of energy imports of Europe from Russia. And they consist even “little European guys”.

      And it’s not that india has never backed off when there is a real threat of sanctions. India stoped buying Iranian oil in last couple of years, which hurt its economy more than what russia import ban would.

      Sbrakum, long time, no see. How are u brother?



    ‘The United States must draw a clear red line on India’s relations with Russia. The Biden administration should sanction India under the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act for its purchase of the S-400.

    Washington also must end the “India exception” on human rights. With the rise of Yogi Adityanath – a militant Hindu monk who could succeed Prime Minister Narendra Modi this decade — the fate of India’s Christians and Muslims hangs in the balance.

    Later this year, the State Department should finally designate India as a violator of religious freedom. The U.S. government should also sanction Indian officials and ruling party members who have orchestrated religious violence, including the anti-Muslim pogroms that took place during Donald Trump’s 2020 visit. Finally, as press freedoms erode in India, it is important that the U.S. re-establish the Voice of America Hindi service, which was shut down in 2008.’

    1. The author seems to be a pro-American Pakistani whose previous piece was “why Pakistan wants USA back”. A clear case of someone being captive to tribal passions trying to influence foreign policy in the diaspora. Almost always fails. Armenians are much more numerous than Azerbaijanis in America. Did that help shift media or policy during their 2020 war? No.

      The central problem for US (liberal) elites is that India is too big to be contained and it won’t be happy with getting its foreign policy dictated to it from an ocean away, which is why it’s pursuing an independent line wrt Russia.

      All the hostile media coverage should be seen in this light. US elites want to prevent India from going the China path. I won’t be surprised if India starts getting the same kind of economic sanctions like China is now seeing towards its star companies like Huawei in 5-10 years time.

  12. ISRO’s IIST turning out to be another pipeline for emigration to EU and US.
    LOL at folks complaining about focus on satellite launches and profits.
    Almost all the gripes that these folks have would be multiplied at Big Tech. Seems like the underlying problem is something which can’t be fixed by ISRO or even GOI namely these folks want to go work and live in US+EU just like all their friends. Nothing wrong in that but just be honest about it.
    On government side, they should expand the contractual obligation to 10 or 15 years to sift out the opportunistic ones. More fundamentally, they need to change the contracting process for high tech R&D. Always encourage internal competition by splitting the work against competing firms. Heck even USSR had Sukhoi and MIG design bureaus. IIST graduates should be allowed to work in private indian cos as long it is in a high tech field and advances state of art within India.

    1. From the cases described in the article, IIST looks like a win-win for everyone one involved. Students got a great education at subsidized rates, IIST got its monetary remuneration and ISRO got great entry level engineers. I think a four year contract term is fine.

      We really missed a trick by not having the bond model for IITs. Our problem is a shortage of capital, not of labor. Perhaps 50,000 IIT graduates live in the USA. An average remuneration of even $ 10,000 would have led to a 500 million dollar recovery, enough to construct four brand new IIT campuses.

    “Hyd US consulate top priority includes managing Christian proselytism and ‘Maoist’ terrorism in Odisha, Chattisgarh, etc. As told to me by an Indian Christian employee of the consulate.

    “Got practice running a color revolution in Ukraine. In 2014, Nuland met with Ukraine’s opposition leaders and actively discussed the future make-up of the next government. The audio got leaked leading to a major but clearly short lived embarrassment for the US.

    Under Secretary Victoria Nuland
    Great to be in 🇮🇳New Delhi today to engage with the next generation of Indian thought leaders. We discussed continued #USIndia collaboration and India’s vital leadership role in the world.”

    audio clip of nuland discussing who should and shouldnt be part of ukraine govt.

    At this point, I think i have passed the test of thinking these ideas as delusional . I think this is true. Because it fits the profile of USA and its history.

    1. The bloody woman is visiting Sri Lanka at the moment. The think is that the US does not trust India to keep Sri Lanka in line, re SL pro China stance.

      “Fuck the EU!” replied Nuland, who wanted banker and NATO supporter Arseniy Yatsenyuk to lead the new government. She soon got her way. Nuland worked with Oleh Tyahnybok, head of the neo-Nazi …

  14. Saw this story about US airforce pilot getting an exemption for the Hindu tilak on some Indian left wing source in context of Hindus in America demanding minority rights but not allowing Muslims girls to wear hijab in some Hindu run private schools.

    The more interesting thing to me is that the first person to ask for this is a Gujarati Vania (bania).

    Indian caste norms are really scrambled within an American diaspora context.

    Based on tilak / Chandlo style he is part of the BAPS sect so explicitly non-Casteist ideologically (also no Brahmin “pope” for last 100+ years).

    Given the rate at which white people keep asking me about caste in last couple of years I cynically think ‘caste’ will be used to discriminate against Hindus like this guy within a Western context.

  15. Hi Razib n Gaurav, I am from Punjab(India)

    I have found you blog recently. I was not AIT person but after reading this, i am skeptical now. Issue is lot of things said here are just assumptions and theories. There is certainly genetic flow coming to India but how can we be sure that Hinduism or Vedas etc have come from Outside ? If we get more evidence in future , is it possible that one day these theories will change ? How can we ignore genealogy given in Puranas and by Puri Shankracharya ? (or can we ?). And about incription which mentions date of Mahabharat war at around 3100 BC. I am little bit disturbed also because i had bought Ramayan and Mahabharat for reading few weeks back. and after reading this blog i don’t feel like reading them, i feel they are from Invaders. Can you pls clarify me what is certainly truth (lack of evidence is not absence of evidence !!) and what may or may not be truth ? Pls clarify, my mind is disturbed.

    1. I have written many posts on this topic – Razib has probably 20X more.
      I dont have time right now to discuss things in Comments threads but i would ask you to read – I get what you mean by disturbed –
      In general i would advise you to read more history as much detached as possible.

      Razib’s blogpost Aryan Integration theory.
      Or his post called Dravidan invasion theory.

      Also Google Emissary’s latest post – Draviaryan invasion theory.

      Then go to posts by Aryamsa –
      Who is Indigenous to India?
      Sons of Indus

      If not good then read the following posts by me
      the following three blogposts i have written.
      From OIT to AIT
      Why the Aryan debate matters and why it should NOT
      Language & Genes
      Early Hinduism — the epic stratification

      Also do follow the HistoryPodcast series started by BP –
      First 2-3 episodes allude to this topic but not discuss it in detail

      1. Thanks Gaurav. i have read all that. Saddened though. will probably leave Hinduism. what is the point left to stand against islamic jihadism now ? when they did same thing to what aryans did

        1. @Ritesh
          Hold on, you were hanging onto hinduism because it hadn’t been culpable of aggression historically?

          1. @girmit holding up is not right way to describe. i used to think that atleast i am part of very ancient civilization or Hindu civilization which is not militant proselytizing civilization . But what is point when its formed on basis of things which i had criticized abrahmic religions for esp Islam. anyway truth is found in all religions, so there is nothing special about Upanishads or Vedas etc.

          2. @Ritesh – generally the “truth” means ability to reach moksha is found in all religions and indeed in non-religious practices (since you are realizing an ever present aspect of consciousness/ reality).

            It does not refer to literal truth or type of Sadhana / ritual since that ofc is different across Hindu sects and different religions.

            Some sadhanas are better for some people based on their individual proclivities.

            Some are ineffective so for eg. may someone can achieve moksha while walking on the street but it as unlikely. Etc.

            Islam can be an effective vehicle especially Sufi / spirituality oriented Islam. Same with Christianity.

            The main issues are a lack of freedom of practice within Islam (overly simplistic one size fits all approach), their overly negative and aggressive view towards other traditions (anyone leaving leaving the religion gets a death penalty?).

            I think Hinduism (via right wing efforts) also moving to this approach (more homogenized) to be competitive but i don’t think it can fully get there since there is very strong support for diversity in the tradition for eg. the idea of truth being found in every religion.

        2. I think you have some misconceptions.

          There was no Hinduism when the first Aryans arrived. Aryan invaders brought a sacrificial, quid-pro-quo religion similar to other Indo-Europeans (e.g. I sacrifice to Indra, Indra makes me rich). Native IVC religion is a mystery, but there are hints that it contained some of what made Hinduism distinct later.

          Hinduism is the result of these two traditions merging, and then following their own development within India. The only foreign elements are the term Aryan, the rest of the Sanskrit language, secondary deities like Indra, and a few rituals. Everything else is truly indigenous, either from the IVC (impossible to prove, sadly) or a later development within India.

          Even if the Aryas did push their religion at first, by the time they started worshiping an all-encompassing supreme being and believing in reincarnation, they had gone native. The only way you could compare the Aryan legacy to that of the Islamic conquerors is if Din-i-Ilahi had actually taken off and become the new religion of India. Of course, it didn’t, because even if Akbar’s attitude was fairly justifiable within the Indian tradition, it was alien to Islam.

          I’m not a Hindu, got no stake in this, so you do you. But this is a bad reason to put yourself through the pain of losing your religion.

          1. thanks for answer. yeah i read in this blog by gaurav that IVC people may have known something about Yoga, worship of goddess etc but how can you say that IVC knew reincarnation ? Hinduism for me, is civilization thing , not religion. The things written in Upanishads can hardly be called religion. It is like very profound which ofc Buddha’s teachings too are and other civilizations, socrates etc, had that too. How much Hinduism has come from IVC is what i will look now. I heard in one Joe Rogan video about breathing exercises , guest said that earliest evidence of those are found in IVC, where seals of men doing breathing techniques have been found. but i have not researched it further.
            Also i have lost interest in sanskrit now which i was thinking of learning few weeks back

          2. @Ritesh
            Any reason why you can’t broaden your sense of civilizational heritage to include bronze age central Asia ? If you are Punjabi, it’s not that far-fetched if you already feel a hindu connection to places as distant as Assam or TN.
            Also, even if you trace some meaningful traditions back to IVC, what’s to say that there weren’t antecedents from beyond the subcontinent as well, either Zagros farmers or “invading” dravidians?

          3. Ritesh,
            The caricature of AIT is that – caricature with almost most things in it either bad faith or stupid or both.
            to put it tersely – there is no Vedic Hinduism (or Early Brahmanism) without Not only Indus but also Ganga and also Daccan;
            The post RV canon was clearly composed by someone who thought of themselves as native – with no foreign links.
            Also Jainas and Bauddhas also called themselves Aryas – so linking Aryas with modern Vedic Hinduism is not accurate.

            Also all faith systems and worldviews have some deeply uncomfortable baggage.
            No need to go back to Bronze age.

            Also Classical and post classical Hinduism is already far way off from Vedic Hinduism – with interactions with local folk systems, Sramanas, Persians and also Islam/Christianity to lesser extend.

            So there is both continuity as well as drastic transmutation

            Also read blogger manasataramgini- how someone can merge both Aryan Invasion and bellicose Hindu nationalism together. thats not my politics but its not incompatible

  16. @Vikram @principia

    A couple of threads ago, we had a discussion on exports.

    When this fiscal year ends on March 31, 2022 – India would have exported likely 660 billion USD (provisional estimates) worth of goods exports.

    This will put India in the Top 10 global list of exporters.

    The last time India was in the Top 10 exporters was 1949

    This is what Modi and his bureaucrat driven model is doing to Indian policy making and the results are here!

    I would like to hear if anyone still thinks India has not taken up the right model…..

      1. Total exports – merchandise + services

        Goods exports are 400 B-USD and Services are 260 B-USD

    1. India’s turn around in cell phone manufacturing has been quite something.

      I am not an expert so not sure what policies / global trends led to this.

    2. Our exports have been increasing under both Congress and BJP governments since the late 1990s. I dont think there can be much to choose between the two parties here, simply because there isnt much of a solution space. Our economic options are highly constrained, and there really is only one way out.

      The question I raised was whether the PLI scheme made sense. The way to get at that question would be to see if exports rose faster and fast enough in the PLI sectors to justify the expenditure.

  17. @girmit
    No i dont want to include Central Asia. I get shocks when i think or remember about Islamic invaders. so no central asia for me. i feel more connection with South Indian temples than CA
    @Sumit Truth is not in books anyway. Upanishad are just expereicnes of enlightened sages or Rishis just like Guru Granth or Dhammpada is. so its same in all over

    1. You are correct in that this is a broadly dharmic / hindu view of ‘truth’.

      However when most western / islamic people talk about the ‘true’ religion they are talking about something different (the specifics of which religious text / interpretation is correct word of god)

      1. Yes that is why they are extremists or fanatical for most part. Because there is only beliefs or faith and no self realization or enlightenment. Jesus or Muhammad are not the only two enlightened people. There have been before them, and there are many after them and there are still present today and will be there in future too. This is what they need to understand

        1. 1. I think they are just normal ppl for the most part not fanatics. But maybe have a greater proportion of fanatics.

          2. It’s really hard to say to what extent Jesus or Mohammed are enlightened in a Hindu sense or simply copying earlier traditions or even historical figures.

          With more modern adherents like Rumi or Bernadette Robert’s it is more clear that they have Hindu truth realization.

          3. My point is the praxis is different, they theology is different. So even if some small percent of people from these traditions and a small percentage of people from Hindu traditions attain the same ultimate truth it is still very different.

          I am not sure why the meme that “all religions are the same” is so popular among Indians, but it is misleading.

          4. To end, this poem by Rumi I feel is a very Hindu Vedanta-like and relevant to this discussion.

          “The truth was a mirror in the hands of God. It fell, and broke into pieces. Everybody took a piece of it, and they looked at it and thought they had the truth”

          – Rumi

          1. There is no thing as Hindu truth realization. There is only truth realization.
            You must also understand that these religious books are written down by their followers, that is why they have all kinds of bullcr** in so called holy books along with Truth. but somewhere they have truth in them. Like example i heard that there is verse in Bible which says “Be still and know that you are God”. Now this is clearly Upanishadic thinking. You look at saying of Bulle Shah who is sufi, he is vedanta guy. Aldous Huxley wrote a book on that named “Perennial philosophy” underlying unity among all religions. All religions are same in sense of underlying truth but not same in sense of the structure created in name of religion.

          2. I am not saying Sufis are Vedanta or vice versa.

            The psychological aspect of spiritual realization is similar even if the philosophies, theology and practice are different.

            But other than that I think perennialist thinking is wrong. The distinctions have validity.

    2. @Ritesh
      Bronze age central Asia wasn’t Islamic in any way of course. It wasn’t even Turkic, like the later invaders. Moreover, as Razib has commented on at length, the trans-oxus turanian cultural zone was an important centre of dharmic study (buddhism) and dissemination prior to Islam. That Kanishka (Kushanas) have made known contributions to Indic civilization, and that they were from CA aren’t new revelations.

      1. I didnot know that about Buddhism. I only know Buddha was born in Nepal and started preaching in UP which is included inside circle of India. I don’t have uch knowledge about Kushans either. But i like to confine to India only for most part. CA evokes not so good thoughts in me. Thanks

  18. Reddit Americans having a brain aneurism realizing Indians don’t love America and are not willing to be its vassals.

    To be fair, comments like these are just too blunt.

    “As an Indian myself… as much as I hate our government, I’m glad, really glad that India isn’t getting overly involved in this situation. The USA really thinks we love them when we don’t, really, nobody does. We love the OPPORTUNITY that USA presents for people wanting to go into tech and engineering.”

    The average Indian is just terrible at PR.

    Needless to say, the Western liberal is becoming more skeptical of Indian immigration. This New Zealander had this to say:
    “This is common to south Asians. They love to migrate to west but at the same time they hate west.”

    Does this moment mark the rupture between India and the West? The West is not as powerful or wealthy as it used to be. It cannot afford to be as magnanimous to foreigners as the previous two generations did. People whose home countries are not supportive of the West will have a hard time prospering in the West in the coming years. Though I can’t blame the Westerners either. All tribes prefer their own.

    1. @brown

      Why do you think they will dress any differently? There is no specific muslim dress code for getting married, it’s all cultural.

      1. in south india, especially karnataka, andhra muslims dress differently than hindus in daily life. kerala is bit different, even here muslim women dress differently. hence the same continues in marriages also.

  19. Thanks Gaurav will check out manasataramgini. Yes i support Hindu nationalism, that is why i was disturbed by this blog. I have fear that this civilization is heading towards extinction. This secularism or communism and Islamic nexus is biggest threat i feel this way. Also the lack of spiritual revolution of Hindus in general

  20. hijab controversy has had lots of side effects in karnataka. the vociferous protests by some muslim girls even after the court order and bundh of muslim shops gainst the court order has rankled hindus in general.
    now the refusal of temples to allow muslims to open shops near by is causing a big stir.
    the tendency of muslims to use constitution and street power for establishing their rights and koran for living separately is not gelling well here.
    somehow, the common hindu seems to believe that muslims are not willing to live side by side.
    looks like b j p cannot control the narrative any more.

  21. Welp r/chodi just got banned. Idiots, what did they think? that Americans were gonna let them post pro-ruskie shit on their website? Peak Stupidity.

    1. That was good riddance, not because of the ruski posts but because of everything else that got posted there.

      I heard WION news was also taken off Youtube for airing live speech of the Russian foreign minister.

      Seems like the Chinese had the right idea about their firewall. All the Western talk about freedom/democracy/liberalism etc is basically only reserved when it serves their own interests (who knew?).. they use it as an excuse to continue their colonial agenda.

  22. It is hilarious to watch Pakistanis catfighting over this no-confidence episode. Each side trying to prove that they stand for civil supremacy, and that the military is on their side, both at the same time.

    If opposition wins then what? It is not like PPP and PML-N are friends.

    Either ways who cares? Khub lado.

    1. Well, India should care. I think Pakistan’s perpetual flirts with disaster has jaded people. There have been so many close calls that people have completely discounted the possibility of a disorderly decline.

      To be clear, I’m not saying it will happen but the possibility of major chaos is far from negligible.

      Pakistan has arguably been functionally bankrupt for well over two decades now. 9/11 really gave them a lifeline and their friendship with China gave them a second one. But now neither of those two superpowers are keen to throw money into a dark pit from hence there will be no recovery. They will do the minimal required to prevent a collapse, but not much more.

      1. The problem with having a ‘non political figure’ like zelenski, Iran Khan is that they fight one or two elections, and are not generally connected with the public. This leads to disasters. They will fight to the end and destroy everything.luckily kejriwal is becoming a politician.

    2. As Indians, we should be vary of judging Pakistan’s threat level to us depending on its internal condition. Stable or unstable, thriving or struggling, democratic or authoritarian, Pakistan will dedicate substantial efforts to create and sustain conflict with India. The historical record backs this up. This is a psychosocial need there with substantial buy in from Pakistani society at large, rather than a matter of interests.

      Realistically, all we can do is increase costs for Pakistan and its international backers. We should take a cue from the West and penalize countries and businesses in any way we can for working with Pakistan.

  23. I was looking for some Rakhigarhi DNA videos to see if there is something that I missed about the whole thing, that I might have forgotten or was not directly mentioned in the publication, but a lot of it was chaff on youtube. Then I remembered that Razib had some discussions about it so I looked to see if he said something new that I might have missed and while I couldn’t find any recent discussions, I found this video:
    And as I went through it, at 24:00, there is a mention of setting up society for the purpose. What would this look like? A council of elders/experts/superforecasters or something else that you have in mind?

  24. “Pakistan’s perpetual flirts with disaster has jaded people.”

    Has Pakistan ever really come close to disaster ? I cant think of a time when the country went through mass, sustained instability. The average Pakistani gets that their state’s principal purpose is to destroy India, establish Islamic rule and they are willing to put up with almost anything in return.

    I dont think there is an iota of remorse in Pakistan about the genocide in Bangladesh, the loss of millions of lives in Afghanistan and even the loss of thousands of Pakistani lives to terrorism, as long as they retain the tools to damage India. A few months of political instability and an increase in poverty are trivial in comparison.

  25. Sri Lanka is slowly slipping into a Venezuela type debt spiral – bad tax policy decisions combined with infrastructural borrowings coinciding with the Corona period have caused intractable loops.

    The South Asian environment is only conducive to multi-regional unions like India – as smaller states are always operating in “controlled instability” mode. I feel that only the powerful Union model of India allows smaller regions to experiment with public tax and economic policies while having the safety net of incomes of other regions.

    Consider the state of Punjab – if it was a separate country, it would have descended into fiscal chaos long long ago. Or Uttar Pradesh, for that matter. These states do not have any fiscal safety net – yet they have been chugging along nicely within the confines of the Indian Union.

    A well managed South Asian state could theoretically exist independently within reasonable economic boundaries. After Sri Lanka is 100% bigger than the Netherlands with only about 50% more population. Why can it not be well managed?

    The reason is political innovation. Every once in a while, there comes along a leader who wishes to outperform his contemporaries by vast margins. Like Rajapaksa. Or even like Kejriwal.

    The big unseen advantage of Kejriwal is that he is operating within a vast ocean of provincial tax money that will bankroll his “free public goods”. When Rajapaksa does the same thing, his system blows up within a decade. In a way, the Indian Union enables political innovation and experimentation by subsidising the risks among its vast, disparate regions.

    The door should be opened for Sri Lanka to join the Indian Union.

    1. India has Gujaratis and the rest of South Asia doesnt. That is the difference in a nutsehll.

      An independent Gujarat would be way richer and better governed than the rest of India.

      1. >An independent Gujarat would be way richer and better governed than the rest of India.

        That’s assuming it isn’t invaded and occupied.

        1. “That’s assuming it isn’t invaded and occupied.”

          Would have been very much on the cards from both North and South, Gujarat has rarely managed to stay independent.

      2. @Vikram

        You are missing the point. Gujjus are able to be Gujjus because of the rest of India. They have paid good political rent for the past two decades to the Union of India. In this aspect, Maharashtra and Karnataka are also exactly like Gujarat.

        Sri Lanka’s HDI is way above India (Ranked 72 against 131), but this literally has ephemeral meaning for them. In the real world aspect, they cannot match up to the Union of India’s sandbox for political and economic innovation. This is the Indic aspect where tiny, small or medium sized political states don’t work.

        1. Agree with Ugra here. Gujjus , MH and S-Indian states can be what they are because of the heavy lifting of N-Indians. And for that they do pay ‘political rent’.

          We bring the muscle and ‘structure’ to the Indian union.

      3. 1. SL had higher per capita GDP and HDI than any large state in India.

        2. In 1991 India narrowly averted a SL type situation

        3. Gujarat not that good by South Indian standards. Kinda middling Tamil Nadu, Karnataka etc are going better.

        4. Hindi speaking regions economic development is very important for keeping India together. It is sort of obvious to any objective observer that they are the most hegemonic culture in India (for both Hindus and Muslims).

    2. It would be interesting to see if this really happens, considering the legacy of the LTTE and anti-Tamil sentiment in SL.

      1. The states we have we can hardly handle, and here we are dreaming of SL joining Indian union. LOL

  26. ‘The average Pakistani gets that their state’s principal purpose is to destroy India, establish Islamic rule and they are willing to put up with almost anything in return.’

    I see the ignorance in Indian views abt Pakistan and vice versa, run both ways. But then this is what we will have when we have far less interaction b/w the 2 countries.

  27. @Ugra

    ‘The big unseen advantage of Kejriwal is that he is operating within a vast ocean of provincial tax money that will bankroll his “free public goods”.’

    I doubt that Kejriwal is that innovative. His advantages in Delhi are unique, which many have forgotten now, was well run from Sheila Dixit times. Its like making Mumbai a state, and claiming its being run well, or the CM being innovative. The same schtick is run by TRS in Telangana which runs a state essentially with Hyderabad’s money while serving half of the people (after the division) .

    I doubt that AAP can replicate its ‘innovation’ in Punjab even. A state which, by North standards, is industrialized with good per capita income.

    1. @ Saurav

      That’s what I meant. The only economic activity in Delhi is politics and it literally lives on the political rent from the rest of India. How else could it afford a 350 km long Metro system or an International Airport when Mumbai, the economic linchpin, doesn’t have such amenities.

      Kejriwal (or Sheila Dikshit for that matter) did not have to exercise their economic brains at all. In Punjab, you will see this coming to the fore under AAP governance. Growing tax revenues is very very hard.

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