Hi Razib what do u think of recent ASI excavations o rakhigarhi
Gajamardanam
1 year ago
Seeing many recent TV debates where people claiming that many Hindu temples were built on destroyed Buddhist sites and how far do we go in history
Another oft-repeated talking point is that conquerors destroying religious structures in vanquished kingdoms was also very common in pre-Islamic times in India.
The sad part is none of the people on the right seem to pushback against this narrative.
There is nothing to push back on. The Left can claim imaginary ‘moral victories’ on TV debates, while the right ploughs through and makes real temples made. When the courts which are filled with Indian urban left elite, know which way the winds are blowing, and ‘allow’ certain surveys to takes place, you know where the narrative is going.
There is nothing to worry on supposedly destroyed Jain or Buddhist temples. Jains are UCs hindus (by a different name) , while no Buddhist from Ladakh is gonna come down and claim some temple is destroyed. The only jokers one has to worry about is woke-sters from ‘less-Hindu’ regions.
Jains are toothless. They have no army prescense. No food growing abilities. They cannot survive without Hindu masses. Hindus are all their customers. It was integrate voluntarily and try to lead or by default.
phyecho1
1 year ago
It is more important to remove institutional discrimination. and discrimination by govt in name of minority/majority, be it schools or temple administration, etc. create H schools/services to the poor and let education of the next generation do the rest. Power is good, but merely making laws and reclaiming temples back means nothing much. Have a law similar to holocaust denial law, anyone who denies islamic bigotry under guise of economic/politics motives is playing a game of no true scotsman fallacy. This has caused and is causing severe consequences to nonmuslims in many places. Parliament should first acknowledge armenian genocide. which was the original inspiration for hitler and nazis.
Armenian Genocide is usually recognized by countries that either have a large Armenian diaspora or countries that have bad relations with Turkey or both. Morally it would be the right thing to do, but I don’t think the Indian foreign ministry would support it at this time. However, if Turkey gets too close to Pakistan, the genocide can certainly be recognized to annoy Turkey.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_Armenia
Also, wth Pakistan is the only country that doesn’t recognize Armenia. Even Turkey and Azerbaijan recognize it! I said it in the other thread but its truly pathetic how much Pakistan sucks up to Turkey.
phyecho1
1 year ago
Too many “idiots” still believe in arguments. Rather than using power to make laws, institutions, strengthen community. If arguments worked, why even vote?. The purpose of vote is power to fix things. This whole “argument” is just soft cover over the hard power/policies. Dont get angry and upset, organize,get power. set incentives, dinincentives, punish those who cross the line. arguments are in the end cheap, requires least amount of commitment i guess.
arguments/debates are softcover over hardcover of real power to punish. If you dont have that, people wont even be respectable to you. will be as crass as they can because there is no cost.
The level of arguments by Indian historians is so juvenile that for once i must use razib’s critique of 82 iq.
Basic logical fallacies, no truescotsman fallacy, the argument that one isnt a bigot unless one is bigoted every single day of one’s life. That a bigot cannot be calculative or show any restraint.
No wonder India and hindus are doing so badly. This level of debates would not sustain even in online forums.
can we first teach logical fallacies in all school textbooks please?.
Saurav
1 year ago
The kashi mandir-masjid issue is a bigger lightning rod for both Muslims and Hindus and in some way it ain’t.
The temple of abode of shiva, who for lack of better word , is no Ram. Doesn’t arouse the same passion. Yet its demolition is quite clear cut unlike Ayodhya, so Hindus are on far stronger footing.
The Muslims have the opposite predicament. They defended with much zeal for Babri, which for all practical purpose was a depilated mosque with no Namaz being held, come the 90s. Unlike babri, the Gyanvapi Mosque is bigger and functional. But they are on a weaker footing on the demolition front, so they are arguing for Indian law.
In the middle, there are jokers from “less-Hindu” regions, in the lookout for that imaginary jain or Buddhist who would lay claim to their temples/viharas below Hindu temples.
In 1992, I was too young to follow or even understand the socio-political aftermath of the Babri demolition. The only dim memories I have is that we got 2-4 weeks of an unplanned school break. Looking back, it seems almost surreal – even in that pre-mobile/internet era, the tension spread to every corner of the country. Even my cousins in small towns received long school breaks.
Following Gyanvapi in this social age feels like a franchise re-run. The cast has re-assembled, some are older, some are wiser, some have passed away, some have battle scars – the audience though is predominantly new – and the audience from the earlier prequel is giving us cues on what to expect and what not to!
Some things have not changed at all – the societal incompetence of the Gangetic folks to enforce their writ even in a local setting, the ability of Indian Muslims to play off smaller stakes against pan-India aims and the cultural faultline in New India – Hindutva driven West India vs the secularism ridden Gangetic plains.
Close to 70% of Indian Muslims live in the Gangetic Plains – in an arc starting from Delhi all the way to the Hooghly Basin. As a result, the political epicentre and cultural locus of secularism is also the Gangetic Plains. The greatest exponents and beneficiaries of secular theory also come from this area.
The sea change between 1992 and now is that – Hindutva from Western India has put one over the Gangetic secularists in the last 2 decades. Gujaratis and Marathis now determine political expediency in the Gangetic Plains (Yogi as CM is a successful Western India imposition).
And now it remains to be seen, whether Hindutva will once more spend political capital on Gyanvapi/Gangetic folks. The locals have messed it up again – gloriously – another 50 year legal battle looks set up. The last time, a Sindhi gentleman carried water for the Gangetic folks.
I can see 3 main reactions from the Gangetic Hindus –
1. Outrage, outrage, outrage (wuzu)
2. Pleas to Modi to scrap Places of Worship Act
3. Murtipuja is against Vedic ideals (shades of Arya Samaj and copium)
Bharatendu Harishchandra, also coincidentally hailing from Kashi, wrote these immortal lines in the 18th century – Andher Nagri, Chaupat Raja, Takke Ser Baji, Takke Ser Khaja…
Close to 70% of Indian Muslims live in the Gangetic Plains
Truly a “More Hindu” region! More Muslims than Pakistan&Afghanistan combined, Mughal landmarks&Mosques everywhere and an alleged National language marinated in Farsi&Arabic loanwords.
Saurav
1 year ago
As I said beware of woke-stars from “less Hindu” regions.
Especially the ones who have no dog in the fight.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFPRxi6n76U
shekar gupta is calling for reconciliation with regards to the muslim temple demolitions. the very fact that the likes of shekar gupta wants a reconciliation itself is a big step.
well, karnataka has revised its school text books. others will also be forced to do so.
the fact that ex muslims are coming out and showing their faces is also a radical step.
i foresee gharwapasi of muslims at least of the pasmanda variety.
we are living in very interesting times indeed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dlzE0giAJQ
asker ali, a trained muslim religious preacher renounces islam. really powerful talk.
my take is that once that population of any group exceeds 20%, the need for herd instinct reduces and such tendencies rise.
https://aninews.in/news/national/politics/cm-pramod-sawant-calls-for-reconstruction-of-temples-destroyed-by-the-portuguese-in-goa20220522205957/
when you about making things up as you go along. Problem in hindutva is there are no concrete goals. No concrete investment in terms of what is its real ideology. No enunciation of dharma. making and reclaiming temples is easy way out compared to making institutions and giving people autonomy with regards to religion. When your ideology is every day incitement to win the next election. Good luck making India a place to attract capital once riots start. As I said, win first and then fight over what needs to be reclaimed without worrying about backlash. we need to be where china is. Hide your strength and bide your time.
About the e1b1a conversation. The African e1b1a probably has nothing to do with Eurasian ancestry directly. But maybe there is some indirect effect. E1b1a could be descended from some North African ANA-like population (which itself would be phylogenetically between Eurasians and Sub-Saharan Africans). But when the e1b1a was carried down into West Africa (or westward from an Eastern African source for that matter), the original ANA source may have arrived in an admixed state with some Dzudzuana (actual Eurasian) ancestry. So e1b1a could have arrived WITH western ancestry but not FROM western ancestry.
As for that Natufian e1b, it is a very different clade from e1b1a, sort of ridiculous how e doesn’t have other letter subclades, imagine saying f4b2b2b1a1a…. for r1a1a or something like that. Natufian e1b split from e1b1a over 40,000 years ago (both descending from e-p177 I think) so it doesn’t have anything to do with e1b1a’s recent spread as far as being related is concerned. And the Natufian e1b is intrusive into west Asia from a North African source (like Mushabian) I suspect, but I can’t be sure until some Kebaran ydna is sampled, and enough is sampled to rule out pre-Natufian era presence of e in southwest Asia.
The lactose tolerance conversation is interesting. I agree with Razib’s fermentation point.
Additionally I have read that among modern day Arab peoples, the gulf peoples (original Arabic speakers) are more lactose tolerant than Levantine Arabs (who are more so Semitic people accultured into the Arabian Semitic language branch). -> though I do not know how much of the claimed difference in lactose tolerance between these 2 populations is true.
Regarding Sumerians, I agree with Razib’s point about the Iran neolithic component probably being the biggest source, but I think they will have more Anatolian than Natufian.
Also it looks like the earlier part of the first comment about the 30K year old E1b transmission is irrelevant since Razib brings it up later on in the conversation.
India needs to get rich before it is powerful enough to go to go toe to toe. Otherwise it will be a competition as to who will lose the least to China or mostly slowly
The article seems to suggest that reinforcing territory already under its control counts as victory for China. I don’t think India really intends to ever make good on its claims to Aksai Chin, but has done well in holding ground and building up capacity and infrastructure. Both sides are just digging in like the India-Pak on Siachen. More wasteful expenditure for both sides but China can obviously better withstand it.
on the sham sharma show yesterday, AIM was advocating changing the population mix in kashmir as a low level solution. kushal mehra mentioned about falling t f r of muslims in the valley. well if this is true, this will have long term implications.
phyecho1
1 year ago
anons have pushed ideas in past 10 yrs that has in many ways changed cuture and offered solutions. crypto being a visible example. This is incredible. Our culture is being impacted by anons now more than ever and many dont take credit, just want to push ideas into mainstream culture.
Prats
1 year ago
There used to be this guy back in the day called Arindam Chaudhury who ran the Indian Institute of Planning and Management (IIPM). Quite an iffy B-school.
Had a decent personal brand thanks to front page ads on Times of India and photo ops with SRK, MMS etc.
His institute was shut down sometime in 2010s and he seemed to disappear off the face of the earth.
I just learnt today that he is on Twitter where is LARPs as a Marxist atheist! Also quite the debonair narcissist.
Islam is not an ethnicity. This is Hindu Nationalism. Not ethnonationalism as article states.
phyecho1
1 year ago
Mohammad has been criticized by bjp minister on television channel . Lets see if Modi backs her or cowardly throws her away. With all due respect to razib, until criticism of islam/ mohammed is tolerated to the degree as is the case now with respect to other religions. No amount of historical arguments, cognitive science arguments will cut it. It will be different from other religions and on a wholly different trajectory than has been the case for other religions. In order to make progress, this needs to be normalized. And severe penalties to the community, because crimes in this regard are not individual crimes, they are communal crimes. Problem with “secular” law is just that it expects people to be treated individually for individual crimes, but ideological, communal crimes of this nature will often overwhelm law and order eventually if they are seen and treated as one off incidents.This will happen due to severe strain on police logistics and also through elections where their votes will subvert this progress.
As to the secular/liberal judges and intellectuals, you can be assured that they will slink away. reminder that only recently a professor was given bail for making obscene remarks with hindu faith.
Indian state has to do everything it can to deal with this. even remove the word secular from the constitution temporarily if it has to.
I thought China would come to aid SL but didn’t. Hard to say what is going on within the opaque machinations of the CCP.
The timing of the whole IK thing leads me to believe that Pakistani military establishment thought CCP won’t come to the rescue after seeing what happened in SL.
Also the level of popularity of IK and anti American sentiment is high. So it is possible he comes back to power.
Imo in that case possible America hangs them out to dry. Then possibly China steps in to help / influence.
Sumit I thought China would come to aid SL but didn’t. Hard to say what is going on within the opaque machinations of the CCP.
China has come to SL aid, in medicine etc. Same as India. No dollar handouts so we shop elsewhere.
We just got a tanker of Russian crude. That means our only refinery is back in business. It was built by Iranians and geared for their crude or Russian crude.
Had post on that. Must be in moderation as had zerohedge link.
My understanding is India gave 3 billion or so in monetary aid (1 billion actual line of credit) in 2022. Which probably isn’t getting repaid for a very long time, if ever.
China has barely given anything in 2022.
Brown
1 year ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OB0VTOC8J8E
david frawley’s interview cited above. he speaks with a calm voice and is fairly aggressive, without raising his voice.
konrad elst also puts across points fairly aggressively.
i feel a need for the ‘english speaking hindus’ to learn ‘tarka’ and the art of argument to put their points across effectively.
Its impossible to starve in Sri Lanka. Maybe those in the flats made for the slum dwellers in Colombo. A really thin sliver of even Colombo population. In rural areas (80% of SL) are quite self sufficient in rice and veggies. Fishing in the umpteen reservoirs and river, Even a little hunting (illegal) adds fish and meat to the table.
Lankans will have to get used to eating locally produced food. Even lentils a staple in almost every meal is imported from Australia and Pakistan.
Lanka does not have good soil (a little mulch helps), but we have plenty of water. A little elbow grease and a family can be more than self sufficient. A classmate who lives in Colombo is self sufficient in veggis. Grows them in pots on balcony and flat rooftop.
In other news
That means the Sapugaskanda refinery will be back in operation. The refinery was built by the Iranian and is geared to process Iranian heavy crude.
I wonder how SL avoided US sanctions. Maybe the shipment is donation or on long term credit denominated in non USD or EUR currency.
I guess the US wont seize Russian tankers, unlike the seizing of Iranian oil shipments. That would be an act of war. https://www.zerohedge.com/commodities/bankrupt-sri-lanka-takes-russian-crude-fuel-crisis-depletes-stocks
About an hour ago went to the village
Oysters cleaned LKR 900 (less than USD 2) for a kilo.
Free with a little elbow grease in the nearby lagoon.
Brought it home Got the lady who helps to cook.
She said she does not eat oysters and mussels as she had eaten too much of it when she was young.
Same with the fish, doesnt eat. I too am not big fan, because bony. OK fried.
I was reminded that pre 1900’s fish, lobster etc were the food for servants and field hands in the US. Even in SL very few people ate lobster even though they ate shrimp. My cousin who was a diver couldnt give lobster away to neighbors in the eighties when he caught more than needed for tourist hotels.
Not too sympathetic when Sri Lankans say they starve.
Plenty of food all around.
phyecho1
1 year ago
Just to be clear, i only advocate the necessity of flexibility in laws to bring order and fear of law which is the primary point. And such flexibility should also be used sparingly, judiciously. And one can make any such rules timebound, expires automatically unless renewed by parliament. Until society adjusts to basic freedom of speech. And enough introspection exists as to be able to run without any such laws. It is about incentives and disincentives to bring people to the mean and there should be judicial independence to ensure some checks and balances.
“I urge @HMOIndia to order an enquiry into how & who leaked the confidential list of people whose security was withdrawn by @AAPPunjab Govt @ArvindKejriwal & @BhagwantMann
are responsible for the brutal killing of #SidhuMoosewala whose security was withdrawn yesterday”
Seems suspicious given (taken from dnaindia):
‘In April 2022, Sidhu Moose Wala had sparked a row after he targeted the Aam Aadmi Party (AAP) and its supporters in his latest song ‘Scapegoat’.
These things don’t just happen.
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The singer had allegedly called AAP supporters ‘gaddar’ (traitor) in his song. ‘
As Saurav said, AAP’s Chikna Chaddha(s) from Delhi will get a taste of ‘real’ India in Punjab.
LOL, soon the Delhi-wallah Hindu chaddhas will find out that Punjab is still the same one of the 70s and 80s which their parents ran away from. They all this talk of ‘Punjabiyat’ will end.
Bhimrao
1 year ago
warlock’s comment on Moosewala death and my reply disappeared.
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WTF? I though Siddhu’s antics were fun and games.
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His new song called AAP Ghaddar(traitor), his security was removed yesterday, not only that it was made public (leaked?) that his security was removed, he was shot today. This sounds too suspicious.
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As Saurav said:
AAP’s Chaddha(s) from Delhi are on ‘Discovery of India’.
how common are trads? I see some vile stuff from that group. Seems like another Steppe supremacist group like Khalistanis and the more secular Pak biradri ethnonationalists
If you mean bitch about reservation, caste-ist (as in mentally calling someone ‘chamar’, ‘bhangi’, ‘maleccha’) slurs then very common (almost everyone) in villages and towns. If you mean IQ/genetics/history/katua/… then it is a online phenomenon.
On caste trads say stuff Baman-Thakurs from hinterland used to believe in anyways, sort of like Khalistanis but their Khalistan is Hindustan so not my problem. Mostly shit post about reservation in jobs/colleges, IQ of the rest, and so on…
The bakchod Trads to me seem to be first-second gen Baman-Thakur folks who live in cities and can’t say things in the open like their fathers and grandfathers used to in villages/towns.
Not worth worrying about. Just like Madraasis (vis-a-vis Dravida Nadu), trads are too nice and too soft to do any major damage.
This is horrible. even one person posting vile stuff is bad, it also leads to disgust that many others feel. Which leads to numbers for left and such types. We need IC marriages on steroids, a separate quota for them so that they dont merge into whatever their paternal castes are. And we need to have own schools and own eco system. Law is a blunt force. If there was local level strong asabiyya,making new laws would be unnecessary. People have wrong notion of dharma as some pravachan, it is first and foremost punishment of wrong and evil. Every one should in their hearts must carry that, if everyone did, we would be better off already. So much of Indian state is about weakneing asabiyya of H’s and strengthening of asabiyya of others, with bjp being a beneficiary of cowardice that develops as a consequence of loneliness as a result for lack of asabiyya. I keep reading people saying it is not worth saying x on twitter, be careful about the mob etc. cowardice is in the air. I can feel its stench. I atleast think building of asabiyya helps overcome it. bjp seeks to continue to remain the political beneficiary of it, even if it means that its spokesperson lose life. They have taken martyrdom of their workers to new heights.
I hope people will now agree with my view, that there are no liberals/left in India. They are just colonized idiots. call them colonized left/liberals.
colonized left/liberals because they violate their own principles
1)They dont support minority rights.
They abandoned minorities in 47, opposed caa. They support criticism of hindu minorities in the west/ america.
2) They cant criticize chrsitianity or islam, not even during the past centuries. One can hardly point to any literature of these types even writing one book regarding this.
3)Again/ minority rights is not the issue or they will criticize these things in muslim majority countries/ pakistan of all places, but dont, infact greet pakistanis quite well. Even now these media idiots will happily bring on afridi for interviews or parvez musharaff . What kind of mental slavery was going on?. You will struggle to find 5 articles by 5 muslim jouranlists in last 10 yrs that criticize what is happening on the other side of the border. People they left behind and have zero conscience about it. Hindu lives are cheap and good bait to appease crocodiles.
4) freedom of speech/expression is about carrying on the masters vulgar form of fun of dual colonialism.
5) Will criticize the west in forms approved by the west/ left.
One cannot explain their behavior by any other way than through this recognition that we underwent dual colonialism and that explains their behavior. Just look at ram guha and pratap bhanu mehta to understand this. X list a,b,c as their principles. But X never applies those principles to two of its earlier masters and will bocott anyone who ever does so. Cowardice might explain with regards to islam for some, but they cant even get themselves to criticize Christianity either not here where in minority, but even in places where it is majority.Will solicit every western academic and activist, even bigots to criticize Hindus in India, without ever being invited to discuss anything american, except once again to criticize hindu minority in the west. Anywhere else in the world, people expect parity/ mutual respect. Here it is one way. seeking to be lectured upon. seeking to be insulted. Remember that uk lady that shashi tharoor and other congress members and media invited with “India’s daughter”. tharoor insisted that we should be shamed upon.
Aroup Chatterjee was the only person who revealed what was behind mother teresa. And he is settled in uk. No one in India did that, even when communists were in power in west bengal. And her work if any was an insult to them. you think xi jinping would have governed a district and allow this sort of publicity ? or stalin?
I suggest people to call them colonized liberal/left. when you call them left/liberal, you assist them in their own mythmaking.
1) It wont, “booming” means what in terms of numbers?. One needs a separate IC political community, with quotas for being IC. Once the number reaches 15%, things will change.
2) All IC marriages that result in people becoming part of paternal caste ultimately is meaningless Unless it results in deliberate political IC community.
“Table 1 shows that in India the percentage of inter-caste marriages is about 11 percent out of which in 5.58 percent cases women marry to men of lower caste and in another 5.38 percent cases, the women belongs to lower caste but husbands belong to higher
castes. ”
I expect the number to be at least 15% maybe into low 20s (%) by now.
“One needs a separate IC political community, with quotas for being IC. Once the number reaches 15%, things will change.”
That seems too drastic. (Indian) Government can never match the support Indian joint families provide. Kolis/Jatavs are real communities with or without quotas. We can’t make a ‘community’ of folks who married IC, the level of persecution is not the same, the social/economic standing is not the same. When quota gets involved, people will play dirty.
“All IC marriages that result in people becoming part of paternal caste ultimately is meaningless Unless it results in deliberate political IC community.”
No becoming part of paternal caste is not that bad. What will be the pilgrimage sites of ‘political IC community’ (making things like Navayana’s Deekshabhoomi, Nagpur). What will be their festivals, what will be their wedding rituals, their …
###
Most of these drastic things don’t work. Sab muh-chodi kar rahe hain. Folks on BP not that long ago were saying reduce India’s population. Now folks say increase it. Kaeshour bhai used to suggest send UP-Bihar Hindus into Kashmir, but advocates Pak Hindus convert. Folks don’t know shit. On time tends to 20 years, if all these modelling and statistics folks knew anything Japan’s population collapse wouldn’t have happened, and Pakistan’s coming water crisis would have been averted. People were shitting their pants when pandemic hit. (Rightly) Changed their opinions multiple times on things like masks. Despite their fifty degrees from fala-dhikana couldn’t do anything useful. ‘Public intellectuals’ are nerds looking to play the celebrity game in an entertainment industry big enough to accommodate them.
I am not saying remain confused and inactive. But recognize which cat will catch the rat and which won’t, spend resources wisely. Life is short.
Another point I am making is we do not know if creating a government neo-Periyar movement of caste eradication is even beneficial. Let things be the way they are, scoring handsome/smart men and beautiful/intelligent ladies from a different caste as potential spouse is already a big incentive. Time and trends are on our (pro IC marriage) sides, India will change one grave/chita at a time.
One could say I don’t care about the caste/village/family specific ritual/sites/traditions and will assimilate into the overall Hindu identity just like the rest of non-practicing folks. This is totally fine. But becoming deracinated should not be promoted by the government.
Incentivizing behavior with quotas is bad policy. For example, Ahirs (Yadavs) are not OBCs, their backwardness is a lie. Now Patidars and Jaats want to get in too.
I think anti-Muslim sentiment is 10x anti-Dalit sentiment.
And to put things in perspective a BJP supporter uncle of mine chided my cousins wife for going to Hajji Ali shrine after marriage (she also went to some hindu temples)
I thought that was quite intolerant of him. So it is still milquetoast by regional standards for religious hate.
if the punjab situation develops into an insurgency, then this time center will be forced to seek control using army or c r p f, and also having governor’s rule. i feeling is that , then the supreme court will not intervene and strike down the certral rule.
Rumors has it that Bajwa’s wife was harassed by other army wives at a recent AMC meeting in Pakistan. She promptly left after just 15 mins. Bajwa’s sister has left for the US some time ago. His extended family already make most of their money there (Papa John’s franchises).
The entire family seems to be under the thumb of the US. Won’t be surprised if he ends up there too. Quite amazing how little it costs for the US to corrupt a significant part of a 220 million country’s elite. I’m almost impressed.
thewarlock
1 year ago
So the origins of the “Indus Gang” are 1996 at least. Interesting
“In this new order that emerged, the Indus Valley civilisation acquired a unique significance, for this was not as “Hindu” as some of the other historical sites and buildings in the country.
At the time of the Indus Valley civilisation, Brahminism, popularly associated with Hinduism, had still not emerged.
There is, in fact, a popular theory, rejected by several experts of the Indus Valley civilisation, that its cities were destroyed by the Aryans of Central Asia, who eventually laid the foundation of Brahminism.
Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro were, therefore, not “Hindu” cities.
Divorced from their Hindu influence, these cities became acceptable. Their archaeological digging continued while the museum at these sites remained open.
In 1996, Aitzaz Ahsan, a Pakistan Peoples Party (PPP) senator, wrote a book, The Indus Saga and the Making of Pakistan, in which the implication is that the Indus Valley civilisation was always separate from the Gangetic Valley civilisation that was to emerge in north India later — thus, in a way, Pakistan was always destined to be separate from India.
The most recent appropriation of this history was in 2014 when PPP chairman Bilawal Bhutto-Zardari decided to use Mohenjo-Daro as the site of the Sindh Festival, a cultural event.
Sindh Festival: More than bread and circuses?
The message is clear: Pakistan’s pre-Islamic history is acceptable as long as it is separated from its Hindu influence.
This message can also be clearly seen in the Taxila region, where dozens of ancient Buddhist sites are well-maintained and open to visitors.
What is, however, missing from the boards that contain the histories of these sites is how they were once “Hindu” sites before they were appropriated.
The situation of Sikh historical sites has improved with several gurdwaras renovated in recent years.
Compare this to the Katas Raj, an ancient Hindu temple in the heart of Chakwal in Punjab province, constructed around a sacred pond believed to have been created from a tear drop of Shiva.
See next: Enter the Katas Raj temples
The sacred pond has dried up several times. In November, the Supreme Court of Pakistan took suo moto action to inquire about the drying pond.
With Imran Khan, sworn in as Pakistan’s 22nd prime minister, promising a “New Pakistan”, there is much expectation that the state will undergo a massive transformation.
However, would a transformation be experienced in this context?
Would the state under its new prime minister become secure enough to acknowledge its Hindu past and the Indus Valley civilisation without using it as a political tool to separate from “Hindu” India?”
On the contrary, Pakistan won’t be Pakistan, if it acknowledges its Hindu past…
Bhumiputra
1 year ago
Counter point to Medium Altitude Drones’ strengths. https://twitter.com/ArmchairW/status/1532193869357404160
Hope our Generals and Strategists have not over learnt their lessons from Armenia-Azeri war. I remember the other day Samir Saran @ORF mocking russian war performance. Some sober western analysts have acknowledged that russia is fighting against entire NATO might. So russian performance needs to be seen in this backdrop.
principia
1 year ago
Speaking of Pakistan, I find the distinct disinterest that people here have of their current crisis to be puzzling. Can India and Indians more generally afford to be so lackadaisical?
Imran Khan is not giving up, which is sending the country towards an internal crisis while simultaneously being on the brink of default. Seems people are implicitly assuming that because they are a nuclear state they won’t be allowed to spiral into chaos by “international community”. IMO, that is complacent.
A country of 220 million with nuclear weapons careening towards a crisis right across your border is not good news.
It about time an organic revolution of the people burn down the elite in Pakistan.
The current government just increased petrol prices by 40%, electricity, oil and wheat prices by 25%-30%. Meanwhile, the elite are still enjoying all the subsidies and tax breaks and kickbacks from the government. Corruption cases are being dropped, and preparations are being made to rig the next elections while media channels are bought. The PM meanwhile has spent more time outside the country than in it since he took oath in April.
However the public sees right through all these shenanigans. Pakistan’s economic problems can be solved by a government willing to end the subsidies, tax the rich, and chart an independent foreign policy. Obviously, the current government has no plans on doing that. Imran Khan will win 2/3rds majority if free elections are held today. In hindsight, his government was way more competent than the current lot, his management of COVID crisis was exceptional, and he was steering the country out of economic trouble slowly but surely after some early setbacks. Most of his naysayers have realized that faster than expected. He will come back to power, either as PM (or if things get worse – as a President).
Punjabis are a loud people. They (and mojahirs) love drama, exaggerations… Don’t take their words too seriously.
“Speaking of Pakistan, I find the distinct disinterest that people here have of their current crisis to be puzzling.”
Nothing bad is going to happen, Pakistan will be just fine. Their forex has not been falling significantly. Everything is just the way it has always been.
“Can India and Indians more generally afford to be so lackadaisical?”
Yes, because nothing is going on. We have played this game many-many times with far better odds. Remember the early 2010s with Swat TTP, OBL,… Nothing happened then. Nothing will happen now.
“Imran Khan is not giving up, which is sending the country towards an internal crisis while simultaneously being on the brink of default.”
PTI will not be able to take one proper police lathi charge. There are 10 other solutions I can think of which the ‘actual Pakistani state’ can consider : first being bullet to Kaptaan’s head. Folks will riot, a few buses will burn but Pakistan has survived far worse.
“Seems people are implicitly assuming that because they are a nuclear state they won’t be allowed to spiral into chaos by “international community”. IMO, that is complacent.”
No, there is no sign it will spiral into anything. Forex reserves are stable. Army is strong as ever. Earlier PML folks used to rant online now PTI folks do.
“A country of 220 million with nuclear weapons careening towards a crisis right across your border is not good news.”
Pakistan is not heading towards crisis. Just Imran being noisy.
//PTI will not be able to take one proper police lathi charge. //
This is false
Punjab and Sindh were locked down Kashmir style on May 25. PTI rally still reached Islamabad despite lathi charge and tear gas, the government had to call the army to protect the capital. 75,000 tear gas pellets were used, without avail.
This is just an example of what happened last week. No other political party has any street power rivaling this in Pakistan, not even religious parties.
Even if ten thousand die, state will prevail. Pakistani state is Pakistan army. No group in Pakistan has any gumption for a real fight. ‘Long March’ lol! all tall talk. Who will trek into the mountains and fight? Fawad Chaudhary and Zartaj Gul?
Kaptaan deserves some respect, but even he is hoping some sections of the army will rescue him. Pak army is too disciplined for such a stunt.
idk why some folks hate SS, he is a competent man. Pakistanis are too poor and dependent to do their own thing internationally under anybody’s rule.
Realizing (and acting like) one is unimportant is good. Theatrics like insulting the US, or spurning Saudi-Emiratis by pappiyan-jhappiyan with Erdogan is bad policy. IK had nothing to gain from Russia. He had all the opportunity to do appropriate empty talk, dump on Indian ambiguity. Adventures in Afghanistan were too fresh. He fucked up.
###
@Principia
I also do not think having a nuclear warhead is a big deal. It does not make Pakistan special. South Africa had a nuclear bomb, I am sure at least one dozen other countries can make it in <5 years if they tried, another one dozen in <10 years.
You claimed PTI workers cannot stand a lathi charge, but just a few of them caused enough ruckus in the capital against the police that the government had to call in the army. There is no comparison with Sikh riots, which was devoid of any popular leadership. IK today is a popular leader, on whose single call people are more than willing to do violence. It’s just that he is a pacifist, and he called it off before things got out of hand.
We already have seen organized groups like MQM and TTP set up a parallel state in Pakistan against the will of the establishment for a prolonged period of time. MQM gun battles regularly saw 50-100 people dying in single day in Karachi.. just one example
People give too much credit to ”the establishment”. This is common among liberal jouranalists in Pakistan (and Indians who share the same views as them). The ”establishment” is not as powerful and does not enjoy mass support outside Punjab. And with PTI ouster, they have lost face even in Punjab.
Indians forget that Pakistan is not just Punjabis/Sindhis. Perhaps there is merit in the argument that Punjabis & Sindhis are too steeped in Indian/Hindu culture that they do not have the capability to rebel against an authority. This is certainly true for Sindhis. But things are changing fast in Punjab with easy access to social media. Also, Pasthuns are more than willing for a streetfight, and they are present in every city in Pakistan in significant numbers. You don’t need 220 million to come out to overthrow a government, you only need a few thousand to do so. .
I will believe it when it happens. Before that this is ordinary gundai and pathrao (sang-rezi?).
“We already have seen organized … Karachi_riots”
But PTI is no MQM or TTP. Those folks had all sorts of criminals. Who does PTI have? Those folks had no alternative, negotiation was not an option. Are burger-ati of PTI prepared for such sacrifices?
“People … they have lost face even in Punjab.”
I am actually quite happy that the Army is weakening.
“Indians forget that Pakistan is not just Punjabis/Sindhis. Perhaps there is merit in the argument that Punjabis & Sindhis are too steeped in Indian/Hindu culture that they do not have the capability to rebel against an authority. ”
Laughing in Marathi and Punjabi. Does Bose laugh in Bengali or Hindustani (Kadam Kadam badhaaye… and all). Pakistan is populated with converts who took up Arabian gods, its founding father was a colonial collaborator. Since the fall of Hindu Shahis, save the rare Dulla Bhatti and an occasional Fakir of Ipi, I can’t think of any from that area who resisted.
“This is certainly true for Sindhis. But things are changing fast in Punjab with easy access to social media. ”
Like I said. Punjabis (and Mojahirs) love tall talk.
“Also, Pasthuns are more than willing for a streetfight, and they are present in every city in Pakistan in significant numbers.”
When Hari Singh Nalwa comes you start addressing them as Hindkos and now they conveniently become ‘Pashtuns’ as if PTI folks are militant Talibans from Paktia. Pak army (and British Indian army before them) has annihilated Pashtun resistance many-many times. Their proxies rule even Kabul.
Imran did not even win popular vote. He was propped up with all sorts of defectors. Without IK there is no PTI. PTI is no CCP or Taliban.
“You don’t need 220 million to come out to overthrow a government, you only need a few thousand to do so. .”
If it happens it will happen with the blessing of the army. Not via coercion of the Army.
###
Getting rid of army hegemony is bad for Pakistan, good for India. I want Imran to win, I just don’t think it will happen.
The ‘defectors’ have all left PTI now, yet IK is more popular than ever.
”But PTI is no MQM or TTP. Those folks had all sorts of criminals.”
Yes PTI is no MQM or TTP, these are ethnic organizations that went against the state, while PTI at this point represents the unity of the state. However if you are talking about militancy, MQM started of as a peaceful organization yet soon became militant. However I don’t think PTI will become militant, but they have a much much bigger audience than MQM or TTP.
//When Hari Singh Nalwa comes you start addressing them as Hindkos and now they conveniently become ‘Pashtuns’ as if PTI folks are militant Talibans from Paktia. //
Hari Sindh Nalwa never forayed into actual Pasthun dominated regions, he died at the Khyber Pass. Peshawar was ”Hindko” majority during Mughal era.
//Pak army (and British Indian army before them) has annihilated Pashtun resistance many-many times. Their proxies rule even Kabul.//
Most Pakistani Pasthuns support Pakistan so there was hardly any real resistance. I would call it Jinnah’s masterstroke, he granted FATA full autonomy as they wanted, and that status quo remained until 2018. TTP does not enjoy mass support outside Waziristan, and Pak army’s current hold on Waziristan is quite tenous at best.
Winning a battle is one thing, holding territory is another, as the British, Soviets and the Americans found out.
” Since the fall of Hindu Shahis, save the rare Dulla Bhatti and an occasional Fakir of Ipi, I can’t think of any from that area who resisted.” ”Like I said. Punjabis (and Mojahirs) love tall talk.”
As I said, there is credence to the theory that Indic groups are quite passive and do not rebel. All successful militant groups in Pakistan are either non-Indic or Islamist. Any successful militant organization in Sindh have ethnic ”Baluch” in them, including PPP’s militant wing. MQM is probably the only militant Indic group which was not Islamist, but then it consisted of deracinated immigrants free from their ancient societal bonds.
”Getting rid of army hegemony is bad for Pakistan, good for India. I want Imran to win, I just don’t think it will happen.”
Pak army as an institution and Pak army’s hegemony are two different things. the institution is not going anywhere. But if army’s hegemony is reduced, it’s only good for Pakistan, the generals may spend more time against external enemies and less time on domestic policy.
“ Perhaps there is merit in the argument that Punjabis & Sindhis are too steeped in Indian/Hindu culture that they do not have the capability to rebel against an authority. This is certainly true for Sindhis“
I think even by Indian standards Sindhis are perhaps the most docile lot. During the 1857 mutiny, Sindh was pacified without “firing a single bullet”, boasted the English Governor.
My previous post got swallowed in a blackhole so posting summary of it again:
– PTI got the popular vote in 2018 elections not just on the federal level but also in Punjab. So it’s an oft repeated lie that establishment engineered their victory and that without establishment, they would be toast. The only thing establishment did was to engineer defections in the opposition, and gather electable politicians under PTI .. about 20 seats. These defectors are now with PDM (at the behest of the establishment), yet PTI is still the largest party today and IK even more popular than before.
2) Hari Singh Nalwa could not even enter the Khyber pass (where actual Pasthun heartland starts, not Hindko majority Peshawar) before he was killed. If this is the best Indic general to fight the Pasthuns, it doesn’t bode well on the Indics. Even today, there are very few Indic militant groups.. Most militant groups are either Non-Indic or Islamist or both. It’s a funny observation but Baloch or Pasthun militant organizations are much more effective than Punjabi or Sindhi orgs. Even militant wing of PPP consisted mostly of Baloch in Karachi. MQM is probably the only effective militant group that was Indic and non-Islamist. But its probably because Mohajirs are deracinated from their roots and therefore not bound by societal constraints that other ethnic groups have. And ever here, not all Mohajirs were equal, most of MQM’s militant cadre was made up of Biharis who knew how to fight (they learnt in 1971).
3) It’s one thing to ”smash” Pasthun armies, another thing to hold their land. Most Pakistani Pashtuns are satisfied with Pakistan so there are no rebellions. A very small minority in Waziristan are not, so they are feeding orgs like TTP and PTM. Pakistan army’s hold in Waziristan is tenous at best and writ of the state there is pretty absent.
4) Pak army as an institution is not going to be weakened if their hegemony is reduced. Reducing their hegemony is actually bad for India, generals may start paying more attention to India and less to domestic politics.
Pakistan is viewed predominantly through the lens of security in India. That threat has receded, China has taken its place, but in a more remote manner.
I dont think Pakistan’s economic woes will register in India unless there is illegal immigration, like there is from Bangladesh.
They have “reformed.” Just lmfao
https://www.yahoo.com/news/taliban-orders-women-tv-presenters-084045690.html
Hi Razib what do u think of recent ASI excavations o rakhigarhi
Seeing many recent TV debates where people claiming that many Hindu temples were built on destroyed Buddhist sites and how far do we go in history
Another oft-repeated talking point is that conquerors destroying religious structures in vanquished kingdoms was also very common in pre-Islamic times in India.
The sad part is none of the people on the right seem to pushback against this narrative.
There is nothing to push back on. The Left can claim imaginary ‘moral victories’ on TV debates, while the right ploughs through and makes real temples made. When the courts which are filled with Indian urban left elite, know which way the winds are blowing, and ‘allow’ certain surveys to takes place, you know where the narrative is going.
There is nothing to worry on supposedly destroyed Jain or Buddhist temples. Jains are UCs hindus (by a different name) , while no Buddhist from Ladakh is gonna come down and claim some temple is destroyed. The only jokers one has to worry about is woke-sters from ‘less-Hindu’ regions.
Jains are toothless. They have no army prescense. No food growing abilities. They cannot survive without Hindu masses. Hindus are all their customers. It was integrate voluntarily and try to lead or by default.
It is more important to remove institutional discrimination. and discrimination by govt in name of minority/majority, be it schools or temple administration, etc. create H schools/services to the poor and let education of the next generation do the rest. Power is good, but merely making laws and reclaiming temples back means nothing much. Have a law similar to holocaust denial law, anyone who denies islamic bigotry under guise of economic/politics motives is playing a game of no true scotsman fallacy. This has caused and is causing severe consequences to nonmuslims in many places. Parliament should first acknowledge armenian genocide. which was the original inspiration for hitler and nazis.
Armenian Genocide is usually recognized by countries that either have a large Armenian diaspora or countries that have bad relations with Turkey or both. Morally it would be the right thing to do, but I don’t think the Indian foreign ministry would support it at this time. However, if Turkey gets too close to Pakistan, the genocide can certainly be recognized to annoy Turkey.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_Armenia
Also, wth Pakistan is the only country that doesn’t recognize Armenia. Even Turkey and Azerbaijan recognize it! I said it in the other thread but its truly pathetic how much Pakistan sucks up to Turkey.
Too many “idiots” still believe in arguments. Rather than using power to make laws, institutions, strengthen community. If arguments worked, why even vote?. The purpose of vote is power to fix things. This whole “argument” is just soft cover over the hard power/policies. Dont get angry and upset, organize,get power. set incentives, dinincentives, punish those who cross the line. arguments are in the end cheap, requires least amount of commitment i guess.
arguments/debates are softcover over hardcover of real power to punish. If you dont have that, people wont even be respectable to you. will be as crass as they can because there is no cost.
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/video/gyanvapi-masjid-row-matter-of-faith-or-question-of-law-1952138-2022-05-20
The level of arguments by Indian historians is so juvenile that for once i must use razib’s critique of 82 iq.
Basic logical fallacies, no truescotsman fallacy, the argument that one isnt a bigot unless one is bigoted every single day of one’s life. That a bigot cannot be calculative or show any restraint.
No wonder India and hindus are doing so badly. This level of debates would not sustain even in online forums.
can we first teach logical fallacies in all school textbooks please?.
The kashi mandir-masjid issue is a bigger lightning rod for both Muslims and Hindus and in some way it ain’t.
The temple of abode of shiva, who for lack of better word , is no Ram. Doesn’t arouse the same passion. Yet its demolition is quite clear cut unlike Ayodhya, so Hindus are on far stronger footing.
The Muslims have the opposite predicament. They defended with much zeal for Babri, which for all practical purpose was a depilated mosque with no Namaz being held, come the 90s. Unlike babri, the Gyanvapi Mosque is bigger and functional. But they are on a weaker footing on the demolition front, so they are arguing for Indian law.
In the middle, there are jokers from “less-Hindu” regions, in the lookout for that imaginary jain or Buddhist who would lay claim to their temples/viharas below Hindu temples.
The right wing lawyer in the case is a Jain.
https://theprint.in/features/harishankar-jain-the-gyanvapi-lawyer-for-hindu-gods-who-thinks-tolerance-is-a-curse/960713/
As I said, Jains are Hindus. Somedays, more hindu than Hindus 😉
The Hindu Temple and Community Center in Sunnyvale even has a Parshvanatha deity.
I stayed with a American Gujju Jain family which curiously enough celebrated Rath Yatra. I dont know why.
Well I, for one, welcome the global upheaval that is set to dominate the 2020s.
Same. It’s been too quiet for too long.
In 1992, I was too young to follow or even understand the socio-political aftermath of the Babri demolition. The only dim memories I have is that we got 2-4 weeks of an unplanned school break. Looking back, it seems almost surreal – even in that pre-mobile/internet era, the tension spread to every corner of the country. Even my cousins in small towns received long school breaks.
Following Gyanvapi in this social age feels like a franchise re-run. The cast has re-assembled, some are older, some are wiser, some have passed away, some have battle scars – the audience though is predominantly new – and the audience from the earlier prequel is giving us cues on what to expect and what not to!
Some things have not changed at all – the societal incompetence of the Gangetic folks to enforce their writ even in a local setting, the ability of Indian Muslims to play off smaller stakes against pan-India aims and the cultural faultline in New India – Hindutva driven West India vs the secularism ridden Gangetic plains.
Close to 70% of Indian Muslims live in the Gangetic Plains – in an arc starting from Delhi all the way to the Hooghly Basin. As a result, the political epicentre and cultural locus of secularism is also the Gangetic Plains. The greatest exponents and beneficiaries of secular theory also come from this area.
The sea change between 1992 and now is that – Hindutva from Western India has put one over the Gangetic secularists in the last 2 decades. Gujaratis and Marathis now determine political expediency in the Gangetic Plains (Yogi as CM is a successful Western India imposition).
And now it remains to be seen, whether Hindutva will once more spend political capital on Gyanvapi/Gangetic folks. The locals have messed it up again – gloriously – another 50 year legal battle looks set up. The last time, a Sindhi gentleman carried water for the Gangetic folks.
I can see 3 main reactions from the Gangetic Hindus –
1. Outrage, outrage, outrage (wuzu)
2. Pleas to Modi to scrap Places of Worship Act
3. Murtipuja is against Vedic ideals (shades of Arya Samaj and copium)
Bharatendu Harishchandra, also coincidentally hailing from Kashi, wrote these immortal lines in the 18th century – Andher Nagri, Chaupat Raja, Takke Ser Baji, Takke Ser Khaja…
Close to 70% of Indian Muslims live in the Gangetic Plains
Truly a “More Hindu” region! More Muslims than Pakistan&Afghanistan combined, Mughal landmarks&Mosques everywhere and an alleged National language marinated in Farsi&Arabic loanwords.
As I said beware of woke-stars from “less Hindu” regions.
Especially the ones who have no dog in the fight.
https://twitter.com/Xadeejournalist/status/1527892403847368705
Horrific and regressive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFPRxi6n76U
shekar gupta is calling for reconciliation with regards to the muslim temple demolitions. the very fact that the likes of shekar gupta wants a reconciliation itself is a big step.
well, karnataka has revised its school text books. others will also be forced to do so.
the fact that ex muslims are coming out and showing their faces is also a radical step.
i foresee gharwapasi of muslims at least of the pasmanda variety.
we are living in very interesting times indeed.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/05/joe-biden-narendra-modi-us-india/629823/
Shockingly not awful
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ndtv.com/world-news/ukraine-russia-war-pakistan-billionaire-mohammad-zahoor-helps-buy-two-fighter-jets-for-ukraine-report-2989051/amp/1
What a kind gentleman
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/london-conference-where-rahul-spoke-had-hidden-agenda-enable-left-wing-alliance-in-india-to-get-support-from-uk-diaspora/articleshow/91716949.cms
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dlzE0giAJQ
asker ali, a trained muslim religious preacher renounces islam. really powerful talk.
my take is that once that population of any group exceeds 20%, the need for herd instinct reduces and such tendencies rise.
Bajwa sold out his country for this:
https://twitter.com/usembislamabad/status/1526465881894690816
https://aninews.in/news/national/politics/cm-pramod-sawant-calls-for-reconstruction-of-temples-destroyed-by-the-portuguese-in-goa20220522205957/
when you about making things up as you go along. Problem in hindutva is there are no concrete goals. No concrete investment in terms of what is its real ideology. No enunciation of dharma. making and reclaiming temples is easy way out compared to making institutions and giving people autonomy with regards to religion. When your ideology is every day incitement to win the next election. Good luck making India a place to attract capital once riots start. As I said, win first and then fight over what needs to be reclaimed without worrying about backlash. we need to be where china is. Hide your strength and bide your time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9yreKBlwlU
About the e1b1a conversation. The African e1b1a probably has nothing to do with Eurasian ancestry directly. But maybe there is some indirect effect. E1b1a could be descended from some North African ANA-like population (which itself would be phylogenetically between Eurasians and Sub-Saharan Africans). But when the e1b1a was carried down into West Africa (or westward from an Eastern African source for that matter), the original ANA source may have arrived in an admixed state with some Dzudzuana (actual Eurasian) ancestry. So e1b1a could have arrived WITH western ancestry but not FROM western ancestry.
As for that Natufian e1b, it is a very different clade from e1b1a, sort of ridiculous how e doesn’t have other letter subclades, imagine saying f4b2b2b1a1a…. for r1a1a or something like that. Natufian e1b split from e1b1a over 40,000 years ago (both descending from e-p177 I think) so it doesn’t have anything to do with e1b1a’s recent spread as far as being related is concerned. And the Natufian e1b is intrusive into west Asia from a North African source (like Mushabian) I suspect, but I can’t be sure until some Kebaran ydna is sampled, and enough is sampled to rule out pre-Natufian era presence of e in southwest Asia.
The lactose tolerance conversation is interesting. I agree with Razib’s fermentation point.
Additionally I have read that among modern day Arab peoples, the gulf peoples (original Arabic speakers) are more lactose tolerant than Levantine Arabs (who are more so Semitic people accultured into the Arabian Semitic language branch). -> though I do not know how much of the claimed difference in lactose tolerance between these 2 populations is true.
Regarding Sumerians, I agree with Razib’s point about the Iran neolithic component probably being the biggest source, but I think they will have more Anatolian than Natufian.
Also it looks like the earlier part of the first comment about the 30K year old E1b transmission is irrelevant since Razib brings it up later on in the conversation.
China has quietly won in border dispute…
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/china-india-border-crisis-has-quietly-resulted-in-victory-for-beijing
India needs to get rich before it is powerful enough to go to go toe to toe. Otherwise it will be a competition as to who will lose the least to China or mostly slowly
The article seems to suggest that reinforcing territory already under its control counts as victory for China. I don’t think India really intends to ever make good on its claims to Aksai Chin, but has done well in holding ground and building up capacity and infrastructure. Both sides are just digging in like the India-Pak on Siachen. More wasteful expenditure for both sides but China can obviously better withstand it.
Rahul Gandhi has gone nuts.
https://twitter.com/himantabiswa/status/1528056029652451328
why do american blacks aks and not ask? i saw this on razib’s interview repeatedly.
A quirk of dialect I suppose.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_Vernacular_English
A different example I have noticed is that Brits always say “Americar” instead of “America”. They add an r if the word ends with an a.
Native speakers of a language never speak it the standardized way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9zxK-FPnkI
Christianity and the Challenge of Hinduism – Timothy Tennent
Amreeki gora folks salivating at the prospect of converting Hindus.
These guys are condemning India on Kashmir after making entire Pakistan into Kashmir today
https://twitter.com/CMShehbaz/status/1529456071685066757
https://twitter.com/OfficialDGISPR/status/1529471806360412161
Man, that’s harsh.
Is the public mood so anti establishment now?
I would say yes, you can see the replies to the DGISPR tweets, getting ratioed pretty badly.
https://theprint.in/go-to-pakistan/how-pakistan-economy-was-in-fast-lane-for-30-yrs-but-its-engine-kept-overheating-with-debt/969026/
Yasin Malik should be executed.
on the sham sharma show yesterday, AIM was advocating changing the population mix in kashmir as a low level solution. kushal mehra mentioned about falling t f r of muslims in the valley. well if this is true, this will have long term implications.
anons have pushed ideas in past 10 yrs that has in many ways changed cuture and offered solutions. crypto being a visible example. This is incredible. Our culture is being impacted by anons now more than ever and many dont take credit, just want to push ideas into mainstream culture.
There used to be this guy back in the day called Arindam Chaudhury who ran the Indian Institute of Planning and Management (IIPM). Quite an iffy B-school.
Had a decent personal brand thanks to front page ads on Times of India and photo ops with SRK, MMS etc.
His institute was shut down sometime in 2010s and he seemed to disappear off the face of the earth.
I just learnt today that he is on Twitter where is LARPs as a Marxist atheist! Also quite the debonair narcissist.
Nice bit of nostalgia there.
Shameless asshole. Scammed thousands of folks with sham unaccredited degrees in 2000s when the business schools started mushrooming in the north.
Debonair is quite generous 😀. I remember a wet set pony tail and rimless specs.
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2022/05/narendra-modi-india-religion-hindu-nationalism/630169/
Islam is not an ethnicity. This is Hindu Nationalism. Not ethnonationalism as article states.
Mohammad has been criticized by bjp minister on television channel . Lets see if Modi backs her or cowardly throws her away. With all due respect to razib, until criticism of islam/ mohammed is tolerated to the degree as is the case now with respect to other religions. No amount of historical arguments, cognitive science arguments will cut it. It will be different from other religions and on a wholly different trajectory than has been the case for other religions. In order to make progress, this needs to be normalized. And severe penalties to the community, because crimes in this regard are not individual crimes, they are communal crimes. Problem with “secular” law is just that it expects people to be treated individually for individual crimes, but ideological, communal crimes of this nature will often overwhelm law and order eventually if they are seen and treated as one off incidents.This will happen due to severe strain on police logistics and also through elections where their votes will subvert this progress.
As to the secular/liberal judges and intellectuals, you can be assured that they will slink away. reminder that only recently a professor was given bail for making obscene remarks with hindu faith.
Indian state has to do everything it can to deal with this. even remove the word secular from the constitution temporarily if it has to.
Pakistan and Sri Lanka have around the same levels of reserves to external debt. How likely is a Sri Lanka style implosion there ?
tinyurl.com/yj8w22vs
The risk is real, but IMF more likely to bailout Pakistan.
This basically means that the US wont let Pakistan fail.
Nor the Chinese. Keeping Pakistan afloat is in their interest. A few billions in Pakistan, is worth half the Chinese defense budget.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tls9XAU4Z7Q
Look at the last names. Good match
Thats two big sugar daddies. Is the world really that scared of India ? I wonder what China and America’s worst case scenario wrt India is.
I thought China would come to aid SL but didn’t. Hard to say what is going on within the opaque machinations of the CCP.
The timing of the whole IK thing leads me to believe that Pakistani military establishment thought CCP won’t come to the rescue after seeing what happened in SL.
Also the level of popularity of IK and anti American sentiment is high. So it is possible he comes back to power.
Imo in that case possible America hangs them out to dry. Then possibly China steps in to help / influence.
Overall a very chaotic situation.
Sumit
I thought China would come to aid SL but didn’t. Hard to say what is going on within the opaque machinations of the CCP.
China has come to SL aid, in medicine etc. Same as India. No dollar handouts so we shop elsewhere.
We just got a tanker of Russian crude. That means our only refinery is back in business. It was built by Iranians and geared for their crude or Russian crude.
Had post on that. Must be in moderation as had zerohedge link.
My understanding is India gave 3 billion or so in monetary aid (1 billion actual line of credit) in 2022. Which probably isn’t getting repaid for a very long time, if ever.
China has barely given anything in 2022.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OB0VTOC8J8E
david frawley’s interview cited above. he speaks with a calm voice and is fairly aggressive, without raising his voice.
konrad elst also puts across points fairly aggressively.
i feel a need for the ‘english speaking hindus’ to learn ‘tarka’ and the art of argument to put their points across effectively.
Its impossible to starve in Sri Lanka. Maybe those in the flats made for the slum dwellers in Colombo. A really thin sliver of even Colombo population. In rural areas (80% of SL) are quite self sufficient in rice and veggies. Fishing in the umpteen reservoirs and river, Even a little hunting (illegal) adds fish and meat to the table.
Lankans will have to get used to eating locally produced food. Even lentils a staple in almost every meal is imported from Australia and Pakistan.
Lanka does not have good soil (a little mulch helps), but we have plenty of water. A little elbow grease and a family can be more than self sufficient. A classmate who lives in Colombo is self sufficient in veggis. Grows them in pots on balcony and flat rooftop.
In other news
That means the Sapugaskanda refinery will be back in operation. The refinery was built by the Iranian and is geared to process Iranian heavy crude.
I wonder how SL avoided US sanctions. Maybe the shipment is donation or on long term credit denominated in non USD or EUR currency.
I guess the US wont seize Russian tankers, unlike the seizing of Iranian oil shipments. That would be an act of war.
https://www.zerohedge.com/commodities/bankrupt-sri-lanka-takes-russian-crude-fuel-crisis-depletes-stocks
About an hour ago went to the village
Oysters cleaned LKR 900 (less than USD 2) for a kilo.
Free with a little elbow grease in the nearby lagoon.
Brought it home Got the lady who helps to cook.
She said she does not eat oysters and mussels as she had eaten too much of it when she was young.
Same with the fish, doesnt eat. I too am not big fan, because bony. OK fried.
I was reminded that pre 1900’s fish, lobster etc were the food for servants and field hands in the US. Even in SL very few people ate lobster even though they ate shrimp. My cousin who was a diver couldnt give lobster away to neighbors in the eighties when he caught more than needed for tourist hotels.
Not too sympathetic when Sri Lankans say they starve.
Plenty of food all around.
Just to be clear, i only advocate the necessity of flexibility in laws to bring order and fear of law which is the primary point. And such flexibility should also be used sparingly, judiciously. And one can make any such rules timebound, expires automatically unless renewed by parliament. Until society adjusts to basic freedom of speech. And enough introspection exists as to be able to run without any such laws. It is about incentives and disincentives to bring people to the mean and there should be judicial independence to ensure some checks and balances.
https://www.news18.com/amp/news/india/sidhu-moosewala-shot-dead-live-updates-punjabi-singer-succumbs-to-bullet-injuries-2-others-injured-livenews-5270263.html
Didn’t agree with his politics. But no one deserves to die like that. Punjab gang culture is very sad. Emulation of anti social elements of some N American gang culture was part of this, whether people admit it or not
WTF MAN!!! This is shocking!
I thought his antics were just fun and games.
###
https://twitter.com/mssirsa/status/1530901600788951042?cxt=HHwWhMDR0aK57b4qAAAA
“I urge @HMOIndia to order an enquiry into how & who leaked the confidential list of people whose security was withdrawn by @AAPPunjab Govt @ArvindKejriwal & @BhagwantMann
are responsible for the brutal killing of #SidhuMoosewala whose security was withdrawn yesterday”
Seems suspicious given (taken from dnaindia):
‘In April 2022, Sidhu Moose Wala had sparked a row after he targeted the Aam Aadmi Party (AAP) and its supporters in his latest song ‘Scapegoat’.
These things don’t just happen.
###
The singer had allegedly called AAP supporters ‘gaddar’ (traitor) in his song. ‘
As Saurav said, AAP’s Chikna Chaddha(s) from Delhi will get a taste of ‘real’ India in Punjab.
###
LOL, soon the Delhi-wallah Hindu chaddhas will find out that Punjab is still the same one of the 70s and 80s which their parents ran away from. They all this talk of ‘Punjabiyat’ will end.
warlock’s comment on Moosewala death and my reply disappeared.
###
WTF? I though Siddhu’s antics were fun and games.
###
His new song called AAP Ghaddar(traitor), his security was removed yesterday, not only that it was made public (leaked?) that his security was removed, he was shot today. This sounds too suspicious.
###
As Saurav said:
AAP’s Chaddha(s) from Delhi are on ‘Discovery of India’.
https://www.wionews.com/sports/shahid-afridi-was-a-liar-a-characterless-person-who-conspired-against-me-for-being-a-hindu-danish-kaneria-474845/amp
Afridi is a terrible bigot
how common are trads? I see some vile stuff from that group. Seems like another Steppe supremacist group like Khalistanis and the more secular Pak biradri ethnonationalists
If you mean bitch about reservation, caste-ist (as in mentally calling someone ‘chamar’, ‘bhangi’, ‘maleccha’) slurs then very common (almost everyone) in villages and towns. If you mean IQ/genetics/history/katua/… then it is a online phenomenon.
On caste trads say stuff Baman-Thakurs from hinterland used to believe in anyways, sort of like Khalistanis but their Khalistan is Hindustan so not my problem. Mostly shit post about reservation in jobs/colleges, IQ of the rest, and so on…
The bakchod Trads to me seem to be first-second gen Baman-Thakur folks who live in cities and can’t say things in the open like their fathers and grandfathers used to in villages/towns.
Not worth worrying about. Just like Madraasis (vis-a-vis Dravida Nadu), trads are too nice and too soft to do any major damage.
This is horrible. even one person posting vile stuff is bad, it also leads to disgust that many others feel. Which leads to numbers for left and such types. We need IC marriages on steroids, a separate quota for them so that they dont merge into whatever their paternal castes are. And we need to have own schools and own eco system. Law is a blunt force. If there was local level strong asabiyya,making new laws would be unnecessary. People have wrong notion of dharma as some pravachan, it is first and foremost punishment of wrong and evil. Every one should in their hearts must carry that, if everyone did, we would be better off already. So much of Indian state is about weakneing asabiyya of H’s and strengthening of asabiyya of others, with bjp being a beneficiary of cowardice that develops as a consequence of loneliness as a result for lack of asabiyya. I keep reading people saying it is not worth saying x on twitter, be careful about the mob etc. cowardice is in the air. I can feel its stench. I atleast think building of asabiyya helps overcome it. bjp seeks to continue to remain the political beneficiary of it, even if it means that its spokesperson lose life. They have taken martyrdom of their workers to new heights.
I hope people will now agree with my view, that there are no liberals/left in India. They are just colonized idiots. call them colonized left/liberals.
colonized left/liberals because they violate their own principles
1)They dont support minority rights.
They abandoned minorities in 47, opposed caa. They support criticism of hindu minorities in the west/ america.
2) They cant criticize chrsitianity or islam, not even during the past centuries. One can hardly point to any literature of these types even writing one book regarding this.
3)Again/ minority rights is not the issue or they will criticize these things in muslim majority countries/ pakistan of all places, but dont, infact greet pakistanis quite well. Even now these media idiots will happily bring on afridi for interviews or parvez musharaff . What kind of mental slavery was going on?. You will struggle to find 5 articles by 5 muslim jouranlists in last 10 yrs that criticize what is happening on the other side of the border. People they left behind and have zero conscience about it. Hindu lives are cheap and good bait to appease crocodiles.
4) freedom of speech/expression is about carrying on the masters vulgar form of fun of dual colonialism.
5) Will criticize the west in forms approved by the west/ left.
One cannot explain their behavior by any other way than through this recognition that we underwent dual colonialism and that explains their behavior. Just look at ram guha and pratap bhanu mehta to understand this. X list a,b,c as their principles. But X never applies those principles to two of its earlier masters and will bocott anyone who ever does so. Cowardice might explain with regards to islam for some, but they cant even get themselves to criticize Christianity either not here where in minority, but even in places where it is majority.Will solicit every western academic and activist, even bigots to criticize Hindus in India, without ever being invited to discuss anything american, except once again to criticize hindu minority in the west. Anywhere else in the world, people expect parity/ mutual respect. Here it is one way. seeking to be lectured upon. seeking to be insulted. Remember that uk lady that shashi tharoor and other congress members and media invited with “India’s daughter”. tharoor insisted that we should be shamed upon.
Aroup Chatterjee was the only person who revealed what was behind mother teresa. And he is settled in uk. No one in India did that, even when communists were in power in west bengal. And her work if any was an insult to them. you think xi jinping would have governed a district and allow this sort of publicity ? or stalin?
I suggest people to call them colonized liberal/left. when you call them left/liberal, you assist them in their own mythmaking.
IC marriages are booming, almost the norm already. This trad/raita/Baman-Baniya-Chamar will (hopefully) resolve itself.
1) It wont, “booming” means what in terms of numbers?. One needs a separate IC political community, with quotas for being IC. Once the number reaches 15%, things will change.
2) All IC marriages that result in people becoming part of paternal caste ultimately is meaningless Unless it results in deliberate political IC community.
“It wont, “booming” means what in terms of numbers?.”
Government says ~5% not changing for the past 40 years. Can’t be true. This paper from mid 2000s says rate is ~10% : https://epc2010.princeton.edu/papers/100157
“Table 1 shows that in India the percentage of inter-caste marriages is about 11 percent out of which in 5.58 percent cases women marry to men of lower caste and in another 5.38 percent cases, the women belongs to lower caste but husbands belong to higher
castes. ”
I expect the number to be at least 15% maybe into low 20s (%) by now.
“One needs a separate IC political community, with quotas for being IC. Once the number reaches 15%, things will change.”
That seems too drastic. (Indian) Government can never match the support Indian joint families provide. Kolis/Jatavs are real communities with or without quotas. We can’t make a ‘community’ of folks who married IC, the level of persecution is not the same, the social/economic standing is not the same. When quota gets involved, people will play dirty.
“All IC marriages that result in people becoming part of paternal caste ultimately is meaningless Unless it results in deliberate political IC community.”
No becoming part of paternal caste is not that bad. What will be the pilgrimage sites of ‘political IC community’ (making things like Navayana’s Deekshabhoomi, Nagpur). What will be their festivals, what will be their wedding rituals, their …
###
Most of these drastic things don’t work. Sab muh-chodi kar rahe hain. Folks on BP not that long ago were saying reduce India’s population. Now folks say increase it. Kaeshour bhai used to suggest send UP-Bihar Hindus into Kashmir, but advocates Pak Hindus convert. Folks don’t know shit. On time tends to 20 years, if all these modelling and statistics folks knew anything Japan’s population collapse wouldn’t have happened, and Pakistan’s coming water crisis would have been averted. People were shitting their pants when pandemic hit. (Rightly) Changed their opinions multiple times on things like masks. Despite their fifty degrees from fala-dhikana couldn’t do anything useful. ‘Public intellectuals’ are nerds looking to play the celebrity game in an entertainment industry big enough to accommodate them.
I am not saying remain confused and inactive. But recognize which cat will catch the rat and which won’t, spend resources wisely. Life is short.
Another point I am making is we do not know if creating a government neo-Periyar movement of caste eradication is even beneficial. Let things be the way they are, scoring handsome/smart men and beautiful/intelligent ladies from a different caste as potential spouse is already a big incentive. Time and trends are on our (pro IC marriage) sides, India will change one grave/chita at a time.
One could say I don’t care about the caste/village/family specific ritual/sites/traditions and will assimilate into the overall Hindu identity just like the rest of non-practicing folks. This is totally fine. But becoming deracinated should not be promoted by the government.
Incentivizing behavior with quotas is bad policy. For example, Ahirs (Yadavs) are not OBCs, their backwardness is a lie. Now Patidars and Jaats want to get in too.
Never met a trad irl.
I think anti-Muslim sentiment is 10x anti-Dalit sentiment.
And to put things in perspective a BJP supporter uncle of mine chided my cousins wife for going to Hajji Ali shrine after marriage (she also went to some hindu temples)
I thought that was quite intolerant of him. So it is still milquetoast by regional standards for religious hate.
https://theprint.in/india/how-trads-vs-raitas-plays-out-online-as-hindutva-fault-lines-emerge-after-bulli-bai-row/799866/
Raitas are only sane ones.
All sorts of groups have emerged to bask in of other (Gujju+Marathi) people’s glory.
BSP’s Baman+Jatav alliance to VP Singh’s reservations are reminders of how ephemeral political things are.
Any idea if the Kaleshwaram project has been a success ? Has the area under reliable irrigation in Telangana increased ?
Understanding the Dharma Shastras: A Conversation with Dr. Patrick Olivelle and Dr. Donald Davis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQiv5QP0Vys
Great Interview by mukunda raghavan.
if the punjab situation develops into an insurgency, then this time center will be forced to seek control using army or c r p f, and also having governor’s rule. i feeling is that , then the supreme court will not intervene and strike down the certral rule.
I think the situation will not escalate to that point. For the BJP, Sikhs occupy the same spot, what Pathans occupy are for Pak Punjabi army.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AldIyL99Zb4&ab_channel=GauravGupta
lmfao steppe chauvinism gone wild in comments
@Saurav
@Bhimrao
https://www.reddit.com/r/ABCDesis/comments/emu1kx/i_wish_india_and_even_the_us_would_track_indian/
Lmfao this amazing. Intentions so transparent
KK died. Om Shanti.
Om Shanti
Great talent. Favorite song of his
Tuhi Meri Shab Hai
Rumors has it that Bajwa’s wife was harassed by other army wives at a recent AMC meeting in Pakistan. She promptly left after just 15 mins. Bajwa’s sister has left for the US some time ago. His extended family already make most of their money there (Papa John’s franchises).
The entire family seems to be under the thumb of the US. Won’t be surprised if he ends up there too. Quite amazing how little it costs for the US to corrupt a significant part of a 220 million country’s elite. I’m almost impressed.
So the origins of the “Indus Gang” are 1996 at least. Interesting
https://www.dawn.com/news/1429490
“In this new order that emerged, the Indus Valley civilisation acquired a unique significance, for this was not as “Hindu” as some of the other historical sites and buildings in the country.
At the time of the Indus Valley civilisation, Brahminism, popularly associated with Hinduism, had still not emerged.
There is, in fact, a popular theory, rejected by several experts of the Indus Valley civilisation, that its cities were destroyed by the Aryans of Central Asia, who eventually laid the foundation of Brahminism.
Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro were, therefore, not “Hindu” cities.
Divorced from their Hindu influence, these cities became acceptable. Their archaeological digging continued while the museum at these sites remained open.
In 1996, Aitzaz Ahsan, a Pakistan Peoples Party (PPP) senator, wrote a book, The Indus Saga and the Making of Pakistan, in which the implication is that the Indus Valley civilisation was always separate from the Gangetic Valley civilisation that was to emerge in north India later — thus, in a way, Pakistan was always destined to be separate from India.
The most recent appropriation of this history was in 2014 when PPP chairman Bilawal Bhutto-Zardari decided to use Mohenjo-Daro as the site of the Sindh Festival, a cultural event.
Sindh Festival: More than bread and circuses?
The message is clear: Pakistan’s pre-Islamic history is acceptable as long as it is separated from its Hindu influence.
This message can also be clearly seen in the Taxila region, where dozens of ancient Buddhist sites are well-maintained and open to visitors.
What is, however, missing from the boards that contain the histories of these sites is how they were once “Hindu” sites before they were appropriated.
The situation of Sikh historical sites has improved with several gurdwaras renovated in recent years.
Compare this to the Katas Raj, an ancient Hindu temple in the heart of Chakwal in Punjab province, constructed around a sacred pond believed to have been created from a tear drop of Shiva.
See next: Enter the Katas Raj temples
The sacred pond has dried up several times. In November, the Supreme Court of Pakistan took suo moto action to inquire about the drying pond.
With Imran Khan, sworn in as Pakistan’s 22nd prime minister, promising a “New Pakistan”, there is much expectation that the state will undergo a massive transformation.
However, would a transformation be experienced in this context?
Would the state under its new prime minister become secure enough to acknowledge its Hindu past and the Indus Valley civilisation without using it as a political tool to separate from “Hindu” India?”
I dont think Pakistani’s acknowledging their Hindu past will make any difference to what Indians think.
On the contrary, Pakistan won’t be Pakistan, if it acknowledges its Hindu past…
Counter point to Medium Altitude Drones’ strengths.
https://twitter.com/ArmchairW/status/1532193869357404160
Hope our Generals and Strategists have not over learnt their lessons from Armenia-Azeri war. I remember the other day Samir Saran @ORF mocking russian war performance. Some sober western analysts have acknowledged that russia is fighting against entire NATO might. So russian performance needs to be seen in this backdrop.
Speaking of Pakistan, I find the distinct disinterest that people here have of their current crisis to be puzzling. Can India and Indians more generally afford to be so lackadaisical?
Imran Khan is not giving up, which is sending the country towards an internal crisis while simultaneously being on the brink of default. Seems people are implicitly assuming that because they are a nuclear state they won’t be allowed to spiral into chaos by “international community”. IMO, that is complacent.
A country of 220 million with nuclear weapons careening towards a crisis right across your border is not good news.
It about time an organic revolution of the people burn down the elite in Pakistan.
The current government just increased petrol prices by 40%, electricity, oil and wheat prices by 25%-30%. Meanwhile, the elite are still enjoying all the subsidies and tax breaks and kickbacks from the government. Corruption cases are being dropped, and preparations are being made to rig the next elections while media channels are bought. The PM meanwhile has spent more time outside the country than in it since he took oath in April.
However the public sees right through all these shenanigans. Pakistan’s economic problems can be solved by a government willing to end the subsidies, tax the rich, and chart an independent foreign policy. Obviously, the current government has no plans on doing that. Imran Khan will win 2/3rds majority if free elections are held today. In hindsight, his government was way more competent than the current lot, his management of COVID crisis was exceptional, and he was steering the country out of economic trouble slowly but surely after some early setbacks. Most of his naysayers have realized that faster than expected. He will come back to power, either as PM (or if things get worse – as a President).
https://www.economist.com/asia/2022/06/02/imran-khan-is-jeopardising-pakistans-attempts-to-fix-its-economy
Economist is reporting fake news again. They are getting good at this
Punjabis are a loud people. They (and mojahirs) love drama, exaggerations… Don’t take their words too seriously.
“Speaking of Pakistan, I find the distinct disinterest that people here have of their current crisis to be puzzling.”
Nothing bad is going to happen, Pakistan will be just fine. Their forex has not been falling significantly. Everything is just the way it has always been.
“Can India and Indians more generally afford to be so lackadaisical?”
Yes, because nothing is going on. We have played this game many-many times with far better odds. Remember the early 2010s with Swat TTP, OBL,… Nothing happened then. Nothing will happen now.
“Imran Khan is not giving up, which is sending the country towards an internal crisis while simultaneously being on the brink of default.”
PTI will not be able to take one proper police lathi charge. There are 10 other solutions I can think of which the ‘actual Pakistani state’ can consider : first being bullet to Kaptaan’s head. Folks will riot, a few buses will burn but Pakistan has survived far worse.
“Seems people are implicitly assuming that because they are a nuclear state they won’t be allowed to spiral into chaos by “international community”. IMO, that is complacent.”
No, there is no sign it will spiral into anything. Forex reserves are stable. Army is strong as ever. Earlier PML folks used to rant online now PTI folks do.
“A country of 220 million with nuclear weapons careening towards a crisis right across your border is not good news.”
Pakistan is not heading towards crisis. Just Imran being noisy.
//PTI will not be able to take one proper police lathi charge. //
This is false
Punjab and Sindh were locked down Kashmir style on May 25. PTI rally still reached Islamabad despite lathi charge and tear gas, the government had to call the army to protect the capital. 75,000 tear gas pellets were used, without avail.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/pakistan/imran-khan-reaches-islamabad-army-called-in/articleshow/91802949.cms
This is just an example of what happened last week. No other political party has any street power rivaling this in Pakistan, not even religious parties.
This is just a trailer
https://twitter.com/BhittaniKhannnn/status/1529597864954953730
This is nothing. (Sikh) Farmers did far better in Delhi just last year.
Following link is the benchmark to be considered even regional level serious:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Northern_India_riots
Even if ten thousand die, state will prevail. Pakistani state is Pakistan army. No group in Pakistan has any gumption for a real fight. ‘Long March’ lol! all tall talk. Who will trek into the mountains and fight? Fawad Chaudhary and Zartaj Gul?
Kaptaan deserves some respect, but even he is hoping some sections of the army will rescue him. Pak army is too disciplined for such a stunt.
idk why some folks hate SS, he is a competent man. Pakistanis are too poor and dependent to do their own thing internationally under anybody’s rule.
Realizing (and acting like) one is unimportant is good. Theatrics like insulting the US, or spurning Saudi-Emiratis by pappiyan-jhappiyan with Erdogan is bad policy. IK had nothing to gain from Russia. He had all the opportunity to do appropriate empty talk, dump on Indian ambiguity. Adventures in Afghanistan were too fresh. He fucked up.
###
@Principia
I also do not think having a nuclear warhead is a big deal. It does not make Pakistan special. South Africa had a nuclear bomb, I am sure at least one dozen other countries can make it in <5 years if they tried, another one dozen in <10 years.
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You claimed PTI workers cannot stand a lathi charge, but just a few of them caused enough ruckus in the capital against the police that the government had to call in the army. There is no comparison with Sikh riots, which was devoid of any popular leadership. IK today is a popular leader, on whose single call people are more than willing to do violence. It’s just that he is a pacifist, and he called it off before things got out of hand.
We already have seen organized groups like MQM and TTP set up a parallel state in Pakistan against the will of the establishment for a prolonged period of time. MQM gun battles regularly saw 50-100 people dying in single day in Karachi.. just one example
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_May_Karachi_riots
People give too much credit to ”the establishment”. This is common among liberal jouranalists in Pakistan (and Indians who share the same views as them). The ”establishment” is not as powerful and does not enjoy mass support outside Punjab. And with PTI ouster, they have lost face even in Punjab.
Indians forget that Pakistan is not just Punjabis/Sindhis. Perhaps there is merit in the argument that Punjabis & Sindhis are too steeped in Indian/Hindu culture that they do not have the capability to rebel against an authority. This is certainly true for Sindhis. But things are changing fast in Punjab with easy access to social media. Also, Pasthuns are more than willing for a streetfight, and they are present in every city in Pakistan in significant numbers. You don’t need 220 million to come out to overthrow a government, you only need a few thousand to do so. .
“You claimed PTI … things got out of hand.”
I will believe it when it happens. Before that this is ordinary gundai and pathrao (sang-rezi?).
“We already have seen organized … Karachi_riots”
But PTI is no MQM or TTP. Those folks had all sorts of criminals. Who does PTI have? Those folks had no alternative, negotiation was not an option. Are burger-ati of PTI prepared for such sacrifices?
“People … they have lost face even in Punjab.”
I am actually quite happy that the Army is weakening.
“Indians forget that Pakistan is not just Punjabis/Sindhis. Perhaps there is merit in the argument that Punjabis & Sindhis are too steeped in Indian/Hindu culture that they do not have the capability to rebel against an authority. ”
Laughing in Marathi and Punjabi. Does Bose laugh in Bengali or Hindustani (Kadam Kadam badhaaye… and all). Pakistan is populated with converts who took up Arabian gods, its founding father was a colonial collaborator. Since the fall of Hindu Shahis, save the rare Dulla Bhatti and an occasional Fakir of Ipi, I can’t think of any from that area who resisted.
“This is certainly true for Sindhis. But things are changing fast in Punjab with easy access to social media. ”
Like I said. Punjabis (and Mojahirs) love tall talk.
“Also, Pasthuns are more than willing for a streetfight, and they are present in every city in Pakistan in significant numbers.”
When Hari Singh Nalwa comes you start addressing them as Hindkos and now they conveniently become ‘Pashtuns’ as if PTI folks are militant Talibans from Paktia. Pak army (and British Indian army before them) has annihilated Pashtun resistance many-many times. Their proxies rule even Kabul.
Imran did not even win popular vote. He was propped up with all sorts of defectors. Without IK there is no PTI. PTI is no CCP or Taliban.
“You don’t need 220 million to come out to overthrow a government, you only need a few thousand to do so. .”
If it happens it will happen with the blessing of the army. Not via coercion of the Army.
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Getting rid of army hegemony is bad for Pakistan, good for India. I want Imran to win, I just don’t think it will happen.
###
”Imran did not even win popular vote. He was propped up with all sorts of defectors. ”
This is incorrect, Imran’s party won the ‘popular vote’ both on the federal level and in Punjab – PMLN’s stronghold.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Pakistani_general_election
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Punjab_provincial_election
The ‘defectors’ have all left PTI now, yet IK is more popular than ever.
”But PTI is no MQM or TTP. Those folks had all sorts of criminals.”
Yes PTI is no MQM or TTP, these are ethnic organizations that went against the state, while PTI at this point represents the unity of the state. However if you are talking about militancy, MQM started of as a peaceful organization yet soon became militant. However I don’t think PTI will become militant, but they have a much much bigger audience than MQM or TTP.
//When Hari Singh Nalwa comes you start addressing them as Hindkos and now they conveniently become ‘Pashtuns’ as if PTI folks are militant Talibans from Paktia. //
Hari Sindh Nalwa never forayed into actual Pasthun dominated regions, he died at the Khyber Pass. Peshawar was ”Hindko” majority during Mughal era.
//Pak army (and British Indian army before them) has annihilated Pashtun resistance many-many times. Their proxies rule even Kabul.//
Most Pakistani Pasthuns support Pakistan so there was hardly any real resistance. I would call it Jinnah’s masterstroke, he granted FATA full autonomy as they wanted, and that status quo remained until 2018. TTP does not enjoy mass support outside Waziristan, and Pak army’s current hold on Waziristan is quite tenous at best.
Winning a battle is one thing, holding territory is another, as the British, Soviets and the Americans found out.
” Since the fall of Hindu Shahis, save the rare Dulla Bhatti and an occasional Fakir of Ipi, I can’t think of any from that area who resisted.” ”Like I said. Punjabis (and Mojahirs) love tall talk.”
As I said, there is credence to the theory that Indic groups are quite passive and do not rebel. All successful militant groups in Pakistan are either non-Indic or Islamist. Any successful militant organization in Sindh have ethnic ”Baluch” in them, including PPP’s militant wing. MQM is probably the only militant Indic group which was not Islamist, but then it consisted of deracinated immigrants free from their ancient societal bonds.
”Getting rid of army hegemony is bad for Pakistan, good for India. I want Imran to win, I just don’t think it will happen.”
Pak army as an institution and Pak army’s hegemony are two different things. the institution is not going anywhere. But if army’s hegemony is reduced, it’s only good for Pakistan, the generals may spend more time against external enemies and less time on domestic policy.
“ Perhaps there is merit in the argument that Punjabis & Sindhis are too steeped in Indian/Hindu culture that they do not have the capability to rebel against an authority. This is certainly true for Sindhis“
I think even by Indian standards Sindhis are perhaps the most docile lot. During the 1857 mutiny, Sindh was pacified without “firing a single bullet”, boasted the English Governor.
@Bhimrao
My previous post got swallowed in a blackhole so posting summary of it again:
– PTI got the popular vote in 2018 elections not just on the federal level but also in Punjab. So it’s an oft repeated lie that establishment engineered their victory and that without establishment, they would be toast. The only thing establishment did was to engineer defections in the opposition, and gather electable politicians under PTI .. about 20 seats. These defectors are now with PDM (at the behest of the establishment), yet PTI is still the largest party today and IK even more popular than before.
2) Hari Singh Nalwa could not even enter the Khyber pass (where actual Pasthun heartland starts, not Hindko majority Peshawar) before he was killed. If this is the best Indic general to fight the Pasthuns, it doesn’t bode well on the Indics. Even today, there are very few Indic militant groups.. Most militant groups are either Non-Indic or Islamist or both. It’s a funny observation but Baloch or Pasthun militant organizations are much more effective than Punjabi or Sindhi orgs. Even militant wing of PPP consisted mostly of Baloch in Karachi. MQM is probably the only effective militant group that was Indic and non-Islamist. But its probably because Mohajirs are deracinated from their roots and therefore not bound by societal constraints that other ethnic groups have. And ever here, not all Mohajirs were equal, most of MQM’s militant cadre was made up of Biharis who knew how to fight (they learnt in 1971).
3) It’s one thing to ”smash” Pasthun armies, another thing to hold their land. Most Pakistani Pashtuns are satisfied with Pakistan so there are no rebellions. A very small minority in Waziristan are not, so they are feeding orgs like TTP and PTM. Pakistan army’s hold in Waziristan is tenous at best and writ of the state there is pretty absent.
4) Pak army as an institution is not going to be weakened if their hegemony is reduced. Reducing their hegemony is actually bad for India, generals may start paying more attention to India and less to domestic politics.
I genuinely wish Imran wins.
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Reduced hegemony → reduced funding → diminishing ability.
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Pakistan is viewed predominantly through the lens of security in India. That threat has receded, China has taken its place, but in a more remote manner.
I dont think Pakistan’s economic woes will register in India unless there is illegal immigration, like there is from Bangladesh.