How the Greeks came to be

Sing, Goddess, Achilles’ rage,
Black and murderous, that cost the Greeks
Incalculable pain, pitched countless souls
Of heroes into Hades’ dark,
And left their bodies to rot as feasts
For dogs and birds, as Zeus’ will was done.

Who are the Greeks? Where did they come from?

We have enough ancient DNA now to answer many of these questions. It seems that the largest component of Greek ancestry derives from the expansion of farmers out of Anatolia ~9,000 years ago. But at some point in the latter phases of prehistory, another wave of migrants pushed out from the east, with affinities to peoples as far away as Iran. And then during the Bronze Age, another pulse of migration arrived, likely correlated with the arrival of Greek-speaking peoples as such, the Mycenaeans. Finally, there is a fair amount of circumstantial evidence that the peregrinations of the pagan Slavs during Late Antiquity and the early Medieval period left their imprint on many Hellenes, in particular in the north of the country, around Salonika.

But that’s just genetics. What about culture? In terms of religion, Greek paganism is a composite. Zeus pater is clearly a standard Indo-European sky-god. Jupiter in Latin. Dyáuṣ Pitṛ́ for the ancient Aryans. In contrast, gods such as Athena seem to have synthetic, and at least partly pre-Indo-European origins. Finally, Dionysius was possibly an eastern import relatively late in prehistory.

Though the Greek language is definitely Indo-European, there are also extensive loanwords indicating an indigenous substrate. For example, words with the syllabic fragment nth, such as in Hyacinth, are likely native. The Greeks settled amongst peoples who had a long history of settled life, and had developed their own civilization.

The point is that it is probably not even wrong to say that the Greeks as we understand came from elsewhere, or, that they were indigenous. To be Greek probably emerged in the period after 2500 BC, as Indo-Europeans mixed with the local cultures, and created something new. Autochthonous.

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59 thoughts on “How the Greeks came to be”

  1. Was Indo-European replacement of native population less extensive in Greek peninsula and Islands compared to continental Europe upto Spain and England? If yes, are there any theories why that could happen?

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  2. Is it wrong of me to point out the War Nerd wrote a prose version of the Iliad? Also, the Albanians may be triggered by use of the word “autochthonous” to describe *Greeks* instead of themselves.

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  3. Can you estimate the share of the ancestry of classic-era Greeks (5th – 4th centuries BC) that came from Anatolian farmers, Indo-Europeans, others?

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      1. The charts are very helpful.

        Please explain the difference between “Ultimate Sources” and “Ancestral Sources”?

        With respect to standard errors. How much is related to small sample size versus population admixture diversity?

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  4. Very, very interesting. So Greece was populated circa 9 K years ago from perhaps Anatolia? Is that 360 generations ago?

    I wonder what south east European civilization preceded the great flood circa 12 K? But genetics holds no answers? Do we know anything genetically about Göbekli Tepe Turkey? Archaeologists generally believe that it was built around 9500 BC, or post flood.

    It would be amazing if you could interview Robert M. Schoch or Graham Hancock or another of the pre flood scholars. Your conversation could combine the latest we know about genetics with the latest information coming out of archaeology and ancient history.

    What do we know about genetic similarities between ancient Greeks and ancient Egyptians?

    Egypt is one of the likely sites for ancient technologically advanced pre flood (pre 12 K years ago) civilization.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFlAFo78xoQ

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  5. It would be amazing if you could interview Robert M. Schoch or Graham Hancock or another of the pre flood scholars

    graham is a nut. i’ve read one of his books. he’s entertaining. but like how jrr tolkien is entertaining.

    he’s got the wonderment part of science right. but skepticism, not so much.

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    1. Graham has evolved, matured and changed since his early books. If you want to assess him, you would need to read his most recent book.

      Or watch the debate on Joe Rogan whose link is provided.

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    2. Graham is not a nut. But rather someone you have a respectful disagreement with. A dialogue between both of you would be very interesting to listen to. A skeptical, intelligent and data based interviewer would make a Graham interview much more interesting to listen to.

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  6. I will make just a brief comment because I have some other deadline but I will come back with more.

    RK: “The Greeks settled amongst peoples who had a long history of settled life, and had developed their own civilization.”

    Who were these no name people? What were their genes? What language?

    RK: “The point is that it is probably not even wrong to say that the Greeks as we understand came from elsewhere, or, that they were indigenous.”

    How can be indigenous if they came from somewhere (from Egypt) to the territory where some other people lived? They even did not have own word for SEA (it means came from the dry land) and borrowed this word from local indigenous people.

    RK: “There is a fair amount of circumstantial evidence that the peregrinations of the pagan Slavs during Late Antiquity and the early Medieval period left their imprint on many Hellenes, in particular in the north of the country, around Salonika.”

    Who lived around Salonika before Greeks came there? Who were Macedonians and which language they spoke. The border with Greeks was much further on the South, even mt. Olympus was not in the Greece (!). Who were these pagan Slavs? This term did not exist until the 7th century. Where did they come from? If they came from somewhere, who lived before on this land and what has happened with these people? Who was Alexander Macedonian and which language was spoken in his army. Who fought in his army when they beaten Persians (more than a half of Persian army were Greeks!) in a battle on the river Granik what opened him a way to India?

    ‘Imprint’? Is this right word, if, according to the official census, 1 million ‘Slavs’ people lived 100 years ago in Salonika area and none now?

    Who was Dionysus? What does it mean his name? Has he ever visited India and SA? Who was Heracles? What does it mean word Hellenes? Who lived in Crete and built Mino civilisation before Greeks came there? From which language Greeks translated Iliad (who was Ilia?) 700 years after Trojan’s war and who orally carried this over centuries? Who lived in Troy if not Greeks? Which symbols Achilles has on his clothes? Who built Delphi? Why Greek gods are all blonde?

    Who were the oldest people in the (known) world (according to Greek historian Halkokondilo), which was the biggest nation (immediately after Indians) according to Greek historian Herodotus? What’s happened with them?

    Who were Indo-Europeans? What is Indo-European language? Etc, etc.

    It seems you are trying to harmonize falsified European history and exact genetics facts. Pretty difficult task.

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    1. I suggest you read Poredbeno povijesna gramatika hrvatskoga jezika by Ranko Matasović. It places Serbian within its proper Indo-European and Slavic context, steal it online if you have to.

      Linguistics is simple enough that you yourself can check the reality of Indo-European with a bit of learning, things you believe now will seem childish once you grasp it.

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  7. Razib, I can see now that it is not your research. Probably, the most of assertions are from that paper, not yours. I will read the whole paper and will make a comment. One thing is immediately visible, it is one-sided text. They go to very far past but they cannot say that Greeks were indigenous European people. And I never heard Greeks to say that they were first people in Europe. Who were these people? How is possible write such text without mentioning Vinca and Lepenski Vir? These archaeological sites can give many answers about not only European, than about whole western civilisation.

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  8. I have a question: I am a modern greek and made a MyHeritage-DNA-Test.
    Is it somehow possible to compare my data with the data of the study. Since my ancestors derive from the greek villages around Constantinople I am very curious how they fit into picture.
    Has anybody here experiences with that? Can I just download the data of the greek-dna-study and make a reference analysis with the data I recieved from MyHeritage (excel-chart with the dna-sequences)

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  9. Milan Todorovic, you should stop being a weird clown bringing your nationalist biases to these issues (Egypt, wtf?) and should try to understand the ancient DNA that has come to light in the last 3 years instead. We even have data from Lepenski Vir and Vinca.

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    1. Milan is not a “weird clown”. Why attack Milan for nationalism? I learn a lot from him.

      With respect to genetics . . . we should go where the data leads. The ancient history of the Serbian civilization to which Milan refers might be different from the genetic haploids in the DNA of modern Serbs. Ancient civilizations might operate more by culture than by genetic lineage or Jati.

      Milan is still in data gathering. At some point, Milan might produce some heavily sourced original research on ancient culture and civilizations. Which I look forward to reading.

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    2. Goga, there is precedent for another newer genetic lineage or Jati replacing an older genetic lineage and continuing an ancient culture and civilization.

      For example in Arya Varsha the Chandra Vamsha (also called Soma Vamsha which has predominated since a few thousand years before the Mahabharata) replaces the Surya Vamsha (which predominated during the time of the Ramayana).

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    3. Before long we’ll have a Tamil Lemuria theorist, and perhaps even a Turkish Sun Language devotee. This kind of thing is inevitable in any internet comments section that’s even tangentially related to ancient history. Instead of taking them seriously, try to view them as long-form versions of Jaggu.

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      1. Fraxinicus, why do you automatically assume ancient Tamilian claims of historicity are false versus keeping an open mind?

        “Lemuria” was postulated by Philip Sclater. The last great ice age was circa 10 K BC. At that time the water level rose by hundreds of feet based on the best science we have. Much of the world was submerged. Could this be where the stories of Kumari Kandam come from?

        We don’t know where the Kumari Kandam land mass was. Could modern Java be part of it? If so, is Gunung Padang a remnant of Kumari Kandam? The vast majority of the ancient sites near Gunung Padang have not been studied. Hopefully funding will be found for it.

        Gunung Padang could have valuable information on the ancient history of South Asia and South East Asia. As well as early flavors of Sanathana Dharma or other now extinct ancient cultures and civilizations (it is less likely but possible we will also learn about Egypt or Sumeria). We won’t know until they are studied.

        What does “Turkish Sun Language devotee” refer to? Is this a reference to Göbekli Tepe?

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          1. Fraxinicus, many cultures believe their own ancient historical narrative records. They believe that “THEY” are ancient. Sometimes that “THEY” and others are ancient. That doesn’t preclude the possibility that others are not “ALSO” ancient or “MORE” ancient.

            I don’t understand the Sun Language Theory. Are they saying that the language of Göbekli Tepe is very old? If so, it is. It is carbon dated to about 9500 BC. [I think they were constructed after the great global flood of 9700 AD.] But what language did the people of Göbekli Tepe speak?

            Sun Language Theorists appear to believe they came from Central Asia? Are they saying that they had a language since the beginning of the 15 K year old haploid R1a?

            Are they trying to recreate the proto language from which modern Turkish derived many thousands of years later?

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            Serbs had their history erased and distorted by Abrahamic faiths. Serbs have been badly abused and mistreated for thousands of years.

            I know Serbs believe their civilization is ancient. But their claims should not be discounted without very careful study. I need to read the ancient Serb religious/cultural/civilizational texts to be able to provide an intelligent perspective on what technology, wisdom and ancient history are embedded within them.

            Strange as it sounds, ancient cultures and civilizations have until recently carefully guarded and hidden their secrets. Stories often have science embedded within them. For example many Hindu stories refer to the twelve zodiacs (2160 years each . . . 25,920 total).

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          2. It would be impossible for Serbian to be so ancient, as it is merely a recent descendant of Old Californian. Sadly, the true story of our ancient and glorious Empire has been hidden by devotees of mainstream “science” and assorted petty nationalist schools of scholarship.

            For example, we may look at Milan’s last name – Todorovic. We can derive tod- from the Old Californian root of “dude”; “oro” derives from the Chicanic strain of Old Californian language and culture, and means gold; and “vic” is a deviant spelling of an archaic shortening of the term “sandwich”, as found in phrases such as “that’s a hella sick ‘wich, dude”. I can, therefore, demonstrate that Milan’s last name means “dude of the golden sandwich”, decisively proving that Serbian is just a recent degenerate dialect of Old Californian.

            I would appreciate it if you would try to be more open-minded, and not simply believe everything that mainstream and non-mainstream scholarship has to tell you.

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          3. // Milan’s last name means “dude of the golden sandwich” //

            @Fraxinicus

            Haha 😂 … the unshaven beards we can grow once Occam’s Razor is put away.

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          4. Anan,

            I was trying not to engage with you, but I must second what Fraxinicus (and others) are saying. There is such a thing as the reality-based community and we become frustrated when all sorts of crackpot theories are repeatedly posted on BP. Mainstream scholarship is mainstream for a reason, and not necessarily because everything is some kind of conspiracy theory.
            Some of us prefer not to waste our time with this stuff, which impedes sensible discussion.

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  10. “Crom daba says:
    October 10, 2018 at 2:38 pm
    I suggest you read Poredbeno povijesna gramatika hrvatskoga jezika by Ranko Matasović. It places Serbian within its proper Indo-European and Slavic context, steal it online if you have to.

    Linguistics is simple enough that you yourself can check the reality of Indo-European with a bit of learning, things you believe now will seem childish once you grasp it.”

    There is no need to be snarky with the wise Milan. You have a respectful disagreement with Milan on linguistics; that is all.

    History was rewritten and heavily edited after 300 AD by the Church–which then believed the universe was four thousand years old.

    There is strong evidence that there were technologically advanced civilizations in Egypt and Java before the great global flood circa 10 K BC. Yet vast narrative accounts of this history in Egypt, Sumeria, the Americas, Persia and Arya Varsha are now completely disregarded as fantasy.

    Serbian history, Nordic history, Baltic history, Germanic history were completely rewritten.

    Today a few brave scholars such as Milan are trying to uncover this lost ancient history. They are up against the global post modernist academic ecosystem. Perhaps because post modernism feels threatened by ancient philosophies and technologies–and the possibility that people will feel drawn to an alternet set of universalist norms and universalist meta-narratives. It is the old “punch a nazi” syndrome. People interested in ancient civilizations and cultures are often called Nazis or Fascists.

    Today when people say “Western culture”, what they really mean is Abrahamic tilted “Western culture”. Pre Abrahamic tilted “Western Culture” is mostly lost. The world would benefit enormously if pre Abrahamic “Western Culture” were revitalized. Including the ancient technologically advanced Serbian culture and civilization.

    Abrahamic faiths can co-exist along with the ancients in an open system architecture.

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    1. You appear to have been a victim of pseudoscience, sadly my prognoses for your recovery are not very optimistic unless you partake in very thorough study of “mainstream” scholarship.

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      1. “mainstream” scholarship consists of liberal arts academics who have a very particular prism through which they understand the universe. They do not employ or understand modern science to update their priors.

        Have you carefully studied Gunung Padang in Java Indonesia? Many samples from it have been carbon dated to between 13,000 and 28,000 years ago. Ask your architecture buddies how technologically difficult and expensive it would be to recreate such a structure today. I mean professional architects.

        Ask you geologist buddies the view of geologists regarding whether ancient Egyptian structures (including but not limited to the Sphinx) predate the last ice age and rise in water levels circa 9700 BC. A majority of hard scientist geologists would agree that they precede a major flood to the best of my knowledge.

        The last great flood we know about is 9700 BC. If you want to suggest that we have had a great flood after 9700 BC; then please present your evidence. I would love to review it.

        The ancient Egyptian historical records go back 36,000 BC. How do you know that they are false?

        Many ancient structures have been incorrectly dated by archaeologists who are insufficiently versed in modern science, technology, architecture, neuroscience and ancient cultures.

        Many archaeologists know little about meditation, mystical experience or neuroscience–which means that they almost completely incorrectly read and interpret ancient texts and sites. They also know almost nothing about Agama, Vastu, Padma Purana . . . and the science of temples, art and sound.

        For example the sites of IVC have been horribly misinterpreted. They have not carefully measured the architectural patterns of the sites to test if they were constructed using ancient building science.

        “very thorough study of “mainstream” scholarship.” Sadly I have been exposed to too much of this. 🙁
        Which is why we need to develop our own institutions and peer reviewed systems for researching this. In time . . . they will catch up. The Chinese are doing this with great effectiveness in Taoism/Tai Chi/Qi Gong/Accupuncture. Everyone else should learn from the Chinese and do likewise. We can also jointly study ancient civilizations with the Chinese–who are more open minded.

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        1. Strong priors are a good thing, they stop you from getting tugged around by any piece of erroneous evidence and building your worldview around nonsense.

          For example, I know next to nothing about Gunung Padang, but I can easily dismiss the claim that it was built 28k YBP as extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

          We have a situation in psychology where scientists decided to keep an open mind and perform experiments with no strong priors and next to no theory, thinking that all it took was to follow the methodology and see where data took them.
          And it took them to a land of garbage studies that don’t replicate.

          If you don’t close your mind to tune out the noise you can’t pick up the signal.

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        2. Crom dada, you are clearly intelligent . . . which I cannot say for many liberal arts academic.

          Perhaps you are not aware. In recent years a lot of new scientific evidence has come out. Perhaps when you last studied Java civilization, this data had not yet been published?

          Data is data. There were a lot of carbon samples taken from Gunung Padang. The range of dates obtained were between 13,000 and 28,000 years ago; depending on where the same was taken in the structure and depending on the particular sample.

          You are welcome to review the carbon dating analysis yourself.

          Do you have a disagreement with carbon-14 dating having a half life of 5,730 years or do you believe that carbon-14 dating is unreliable? There is some scientific research suggesting that there are better ways to date organic tissue and we “SHOULD” adopt those alternative more accurate dating techniques. Planning an article on this topic some point in the future. But I don’t want to change the topic right now.

          Do you have a methodology with which to question the carbon 14 dating from Gunung Padang?

          “We have a situation in psychology where scientists decided to keep an open mind and perform experiments with no strong priors and next to no theory, thinking that all it took was to follow the methodology and see where data took them. And it took them to a land of garbage studies that don’t replicate.”

          Completely agreed. I want to write an article about why modern psychology is garbage. But don’t feel informed enough yet. And I don’t want friends to destroy the article. Friends savage articles in e-mails. Which I greatly appreciate.

          You are a linguist I take it? Why does changing the dates of ancient civilizations bother you? Linguistics provides some ordinal dating clues and does not provide accurate cardinal dating values. In other words the entire Comparative linguistics dating model can be moved back in time without upsetting current theories of language formation relative to each other.

          Even if you get some weird new time data points, so what? You can modify glottochronology model assumptions to fit the data. In addition you don’t need to use the model:
          t = -ln(c)/(2ln(r))
          You are a smart guy. You can introduce a more sophisticated model that better fits the data. Albeit, it isn’t fun to run data regressions with non linear models. 🙁

          In addition comparative linguistics or comparative philology models for how languages are related to each other are not set in stone. You can theorize different language formation patterns while keeping the comparative linguistics or comparative philology framework. Albeit the body of evidence needed to support this type of rearrangement would be much higher.

          Homo Sapiens have been around for about 400 K years. Some say 350 K years. There is plenty of time for many civilizations and cultures to have evolved, devolved, ended and started.

          To change the topic, I believe that ancient economic history is nonsense. The population and per capita real GDP could easily have been far higher in the ancient past and than we know believe possible.

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  11. // Dyáuṣ Pitṛ́ for the ancient Aryans //

    Great piece, but the above is not quite right. The god dyauS pitR is only attested in the Indo-Aryan branch (as father of indra, who kills him and usurps his role), not Iranic. So, the term “Aryans” won’t strictly apply.

    That said, it is bonafide IE and ultimately from PIE *dyeu(s) *pəter.

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        1. You are over-making the point. The schwa symbol used above is actually the Indo-Germanicum schwa *ə, a filler for an arbitrary laryngeal between consonants. It is NOT the same as schwa usage extant in modern languages.

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          1. I guess “very outdated” is too rude, it’s isomorphic to modern reconstructions, but you don’t see this notation much in new sources (it predates laryngealism). Modern works usually write H for an arbitrary laryngeal. (although the laryngeal here isn’t arbitrary, it is the a-coloring laryngeal as shown by Greek πατήρ.)

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          2. @Crom daba

            I agree a-coloured laryngeal is our best theory of what that filler *ə value should be.

            But that filler itself is NOT meant for a schwa, which you over-zealously misinterpreted it as. It is simple phonetic algebra, and *ə is a particular sort of variable that allows only laryngeals. Which one is where modern theory comes in.

            Note h2 is ALSO a filler variable, though of narrower scope that *ə, and its specific value is not certain yet. We don’t even know for sure it has the same consistent value in all PIE reconstructions it appears.

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    1. Slapstik, every manvanthara has a different Indra. 14 Manvantara per day of Brahma. Brahma is in his 51st year. We are in the 7th Manvanthara. [Technically the 28th Chatur Yuga within the 7th Manvanthara.]

      The current Indra comes from Kasyapa and Aditi.

      The Indra–son of Dyēus–is from a previous Manvantara or day of Brahma.

      How much of the ancient pre Zorastrian Iranian religious, culture and civilization remains? If we retain less than 1% of it; then we don’t know whether Dyēus was known by the ancient Iranians say 5 thousand years ago.

      Sadly much was lost in the sack of Iran by Umar, Uthman, Muawiyah and Yazid. Including the ancient libraries and universities.

      My feeling is that the Magi were scientists and historians and retained a lot of knowledge of ancient history. Which is now lost with the Magi.

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    2. If Indo-Aryans inherited the term from PIE, it must have been present in common Indo-Iranian before it split into Indic and Iranian branches. Iranians just forgot that piece of their ancient Aryan heritage.

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      1. @Fraxinicus

        Yes, but my point is that *it* in question was not Dyáuṣ Pitṛ́ (or dyauS pitR as how I prefer to Romanize it). In other words, the form Dyáuṣ Pitṛ́ is specifically Indo-Aryan, NOT Aryan.

        /ṣ/ and /ṛ́/ are retroflexes not present in IIr. An intermediate PIE cognate must have existed before Indic split off. Iranic stage does not attest the term.

        Old Persian has pitâ (nom. sing. of r-stem morpheme *pitr – at least according to Sanskrit grammar). So, we reconstruct the Old Pers. root morpheme – not itself attested – from the inflection attested in Achaemenid inscriptions via Paninian grammar. No cognate of “dyauS” is seen in Iranic at all, though a vRRdhi form “daiva” (demi-god; demon) does exist but has clearly shifted in meaning.

        Old Iranic people seem to have had no idea of the actual meaning/etymon of daiva (lit. that which shines). Sanskrit of course not only preserves the derivative (vRRdhi) form, but the meta-rules to derive it.

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  12. Thanks AnAn,

    Only what I can see in two ‘comments’ you are replying is a deep frustration. There are no any facts at all that I can argue with. First, the Croatian language did not exist. They took Serbian language about 150 years ago to build their nation. The most of Croats are converted Serbs. Not only language, they don’t have any history. The first their state they got from Hitler when they committed horrible genocide against Serbs killing more than a million Serbs. Even Germans were stunned with such barbarity. They had several dozen conc-lagers for Serbs, one dedicated for children only. They are now very productive in falsifying historical documents. It is grotesque their intention to project their history to the ancient period.

    The other comment was from Goga Balcescu. It sounds as a Romanian. He was talking about DNA? What is Romanian DNA? What is Serbian DNA? Descendants of Roman soldiers? How he knows that Greeks have nothing with Egypt? If he is Romanian maybe he can explain who Romanians are and which language were speaking Dacians and their descendants for 5000 years until mid 19th century when Jesuits made an artificial quasi Latin language for them. What was the name of their Orthodox church until 20th century when was created Romanian Orthodox church? In which language Valachians were baptised? What was the name of Carpathian Mountains in Roman history books (Marcelin)? What are the toponyms in Romania, I can provide hundreds although many were recently changed. Who gave permission to Asiatic tribe Bulgars to enter today’s Romania and to settle there? Who lived in today’s Bulgaria when Bulgars crossed the Danube and after their conversion to Christianity became new nation. Which language they spoke unchanged until the 18th century? Did Serbs migrated to Balkan in the 7th century? Any evidence? There is no any primary source evidence within 200 years from alleged migration.

    There are so many facts, I can’t see any from previous two readers. Why they don’t answer some of my questions? Because I am insisting on some DNA answers because they will be answers on many of above questions.

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  13. P.S. AnAn, please let me ask only two questions.

    “The Greeks settled amongst peoples who had a long history of settled life, and had developed their own civilization.”

    Who were these people?

    In the main text it was implicitly implied that ‘pagan Slavs’ came from somewhere (and made ‘imprint’, etc). The “mainstream” scholarship says that so-called Slavs migrated to Balkan in the 7th c.AC during the reign of Emperor Heraclius (610-641AC).
    Let’s ignore the fact that neither the term Byzantine nor Slavs existed at that time. There were only Serbs, but again, let’s ignore this.

    The question is – where are the primary source evidence about Slavs/Serbs migration? The “mainstream scholarship” should have some.

    Is there any primary source evidence (in let’s say 200 years after alleged migration, i.e. until 841AC) by Roman/Greek historian, writer, poet, government official, legionnaire, border patrol, gladiator, journalist, paparazzo, coincidental bystander, by anyone?

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    1. I don’t know. Do you have detailed records of ancient Serbian history from before Christianity? This historical narrative record might be partially inaccurate . . . but there is probably some real data embedded in it too.

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      1. The questions actually are not for you personally (I was asking you to be a moderator). The questions are for anyone with any knowledge about this. They are one of corner stones of Vatican’s fabrication of Euro (ancient and 1st millennium AC) history. Txs.

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  14. It is very interesting that some people referring to me indirectly but they do not answer any of my questions. I even haven’t made any statement here, I only asked questions. When I couple months ago provided about 100 words which are identical in modern Serbian and Sanskrit, Fraxinicus made similar “comment” and avoided to say what is his background and his mother tongue. He suggested me to put one Serb and someone who learnt Sanskrit in one room and we will see if they can talk. I would like to see anyone to talk to his ancestors speaking the same language with difference of 4500 years. Grand-grand-daughter of Rabindranath Tagore (I will remember her name) told that Serbian and Sanskrit are 30% identical. I don’t know but I know for hundreds of words myself. Can anyone explain where this similarity is coming from? I already provided numerous toponyms which are identical between rivers and mountains in Serbia and toponyms in India. Swastika was discovered in Vinca about 7-8000 years ago. In Vinca was discovered arm and coat (cross with 4C) which was official during the whole history until now. It was discovered a calendar which started 5508 BC and used in Serbia until the 19th c.AC. Serbian goddess of love was Priya which was much later replicated by Greeks as Aphrodite and by Romans as Venus. I already mentioned that one genetics research found that R1a1 gene in Serbia is 12000 years old (3850 in India). I said many other things.

    What Franxinicus said? Nothing!

    Maybe he knows who lived in today’s Greece before Greeks came there? Greeks did not have own word for SEA. From which language they took this word which is still used in modern Greek language? Who was Alexander the Great? Did Serbs come to the Balkan in the 7th c.AC? Any witnesses or evidences? Btw. Italy, Spain and Nederland removed recently from their history books migration of Slavs in the 7th c. as fabrication.

    There is 8 min video, but it is enough to see only the 1st minute, where premier Netanyahu on press conferences emphasises friendship between Serbs and Jews during the Roman Empire time. Israel premiers do not talk such things arbitrarily and without advice from their rabbis.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhxmLuXYNG4

    What Franxinicus will say on this? Nothing.

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      1. There are some (in English) words which are identical in modern Serbian language and Sanskrit:

        Garden, fire, laughing, love, inflame, crazy, town, force, spark, sweet, sword, hellebore, cross, dark, spook, bell, learn, skin, mare, espouse, strike, chimney, when, who are you, whoredom, grandmother, grandfather, mother, father, world, dog, mouth, guest, mane, breading, belvedere, alive, then, supreme, traveller, friend, to sit, dead, by itself, give, door, virgin, cold, jungle, cloths, hide, light, bracelet, fuck…

        There are many words which are very similar. For example, very similar, more complicated, but single words are for: husband’s mother, husband’s brother’s wife, wife’s sister’s husband, wife’s brother’s wife, husband’s sister’s husband, etc. There is one assertion that these words are older than Vedas.

        I have many other words (I may send you offline) which are slightly different but it is apparent that they have the same origin. There are already several youtube videos with these comparative words.

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    1. Forgive me, for I did not realize that the great scholar Bibi had spoken on the issue. As he has never been known to speak a lie or bend the truth for a particular aim, I am strongly tempted to entertain your theories.

      However, the impeccable Californian etymology of your name proves a stumbling block. Perhaps I must entertain the thought that Serbia was founded as a Californian colony back in Roman times… that would certainly validate your idea of the conservative nature of the Serbian language, for the unmistakable Californian essence to be preserved over such a long span of time. This demands further research.

      1+
      1. Fraxinicus, Bibi is right that the great Serbian civilization and culture was contemporaneous with the Roman Republic. The Church tried to remove Serbian civilization from the pages of history.

        You can accept the above while remaining skeptical about the Serbian historical narrative records going back to 5508 BC.

        Have you studied the Serbian narrative record historical stories going back to 5508 BC? I have not and won’t automatically discount their accuracy. They could be a type of historical fiction where real history is integrated with analogy, sound, science. The ancients often wrote valuable information in “code” so that only the worthy could interpret and use it. This isn’t to say that embellishments haven’t been added over thousands of years.

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  15. A lot of people believe similar things to what Milan believes. Can people please engage Milan in respectful dialogue?

    Here is a quote from wikipedia:
    “The Neolithic Starčevo and Vinča cultures existed in or near Belgrade and dominated the Balkans (as well as parts of Central Europe and Asia Minor) about 8,500 years ago.[1][2] Some scholars believe that the prehistoric Vinča signs represent one of the earliest known forms of writing systems (dating to 6000–4000 BC).[3]”
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Serbia#Prehistory

    This isn’t deep dive academic research. And this might not be fully accurate. The point is that many of Milan’s ideas are partly main stream. And since they are partly main stream and championed by many very intelligent and researched scholars . . . they need to be part of the discussion. Each idea needs to be carefully considered and discussed on its own merit.

    Serbia might have had a technologically advanced rich culture and civilization 6 K BC. This subject has been only lightly researched. A lot more funding needs to go into studying it.

    We also need to carefully research links between Anatolia (which had a technologically advanced civilization in Göbekli Tepe circa 9500 BC), ancient Greece/Macedonia, ancient Serbia. [And perhaps even Sumeria and Egypt.] We might be dealing with semantics in part here. Since they likely called themselves very different names 1000 BC, 2000 BC or 3000 BC. Perhaps they saw themselves as a linked ecosystem and meta culture; or perhaps not. Perhaps they saw themselves as rival different cultures. All of this needs to be carefully studied.

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++

    None of this should threaten linguistic models. We can say that linguistic evidence is suggesting certain patterns. Carbon dating is suggesting certain patterns. Architecture, native recorded dates, star maps are suggesting other patterns. Some of the data is contradictory. We don’t know what really happened in the past. But here are some possible frameworks to make sense of possible past histories. Here are some hypothesis. And let us think creatively about ways to test these hypothesis.

    Being open minded doesn’t mean criticism any great scholars in the past. We are building on their great scholarly contribution with new data.

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