59 thoughts on “Open Thread – Brown Pundits”

  1. Good:
    The domestic protests and international condemnations seem to have shaken the BJP somewhat, with Modi giving the first signaling that he would drop plans for a nationwide NRC.

    BJP UP government is in the process of arbitrarily seizing Muslim property as “compensation” for general property damage during protests. Needless to say, such a measure has never been implemented against Hindus.

    1. About half of UP muslims are politically allied with UP Chief Minister Yogi Adityanath.

      Yogi Adityanath is the champion of the Muraqabah Sufis and Shia, champion of the non Muraqabah Shia, champion of femnist, lgbtq, liberal, atheist and ex muslims. It is about time someone protects Bharatiya/Hindustani/Swadeshi/Indian/Hindu muslims and sides with them.

      Maybe would it be nice if conservative Sunni men would stop attacking Sufi, Shia and liberal muslims?

      1. AnAn,

        8% of Muslims voted for the BJP. The figure is 11% for Christians and Sikhs, and 34% for Hindu Dalits.

        The Hindu Right is extremely unpopular among non Hindus and low caste Hindus. There will always be Uncle Toms like Tarek Fatah that India trots out on television to give misleading appearances of minority support for the government, but its obvious theater.

        1. Harijans are part of the BJP base.

          The BJP has to find a way to improve Harijan relations with muslims. I suspect some of the tension relates to old memories of slavery.

  2. not paying that much attention to the india stuff (i probably should). otoh, when mahathir mohammed (who i respect) criticized india’s treatment of muslims i laughed. in the worst fevered dreams india wants to do what mohammed and malaysia has done with muslim malay identity, make it hegemonic.

    a lot of muslim leaders/nations criticizing india is like china criticizing india. just makes people laugh.

    1. Razib,

      I’m not sure how familiar you are with the Hindu Right, but their founding members and even officials to this day explicitly say that killing/expelling every single Muslim from India is their, “worst fevered dream”. There isn’t a single Muslim country where a significant political party (much less the one heading the government) takes analogous positions.

      Yes Malaysia and many Muslim countries treat their minorities poorly, but again, international organizations that track human rights violations against minorities ranks India WORSE than most Muslim countries in this regard.

      Sorry for harping on this point but I think its misleading to equate hegemonic Hindu identity politics with the version found in the Muslim world, as the former entails dramatically worse consequences for minorities.

      1. ”There isn’t a single Muslim country where a significant political party (much less the one heading the government) takes analogous positions.”

        They don’t need to. Their holy book does it -and more – for them.

        1. There is no verse in the Quran or Hadith that calls for non-Muslims to be killed/expelled from Muslim lands.

          Stop trying to project the unique barbarity of Hindu Nationalism onto others.

          1. Even Bin Laden and most Islamic Jihadist groups do not aim to kill/expel non-Muslims from their lands. That was only an ISIS thing, and even then, their was disagreement among them on the issue.

            That’s how barbaric Hindu Nationalism is. Literally the only analogous movement you can find in the Muslim world is ISIS.

          2. Arjun, this isn’t whatsapp, I’ll call you out on your bullshit.

            I specifically said most Muslim countries rank ahead of India for religious freedom. So to prove me wrong, you cite a press release that names 8 Muslim countries as especially bad. Why don’t you link the full 2019 USCIRF that the state department bases its statements on?

            There are 8 Muslim countries in Tier 1 for religious intolerance. India is in Tier 2. So basically, out of 45 Muslim countries in the world, India is only more tolerant than 8 of them ???.


        2. Jihad is the genocidal intention. It is followed by ‘kill infidels’ slogan. Taqiyya is the ethical foundation for all of this. Do I know that anyone, anywhere denounced these things? No. Couple times asked some here to do this, but they rejected. My conclusion is that these key features of the movement are universally approved and accepted by their members.

          1. Let’s test my above conclusion. If only one muslim, hidden behind his/her pseudonym, denounces jihad and taqiyya (he can keep it ’77 virgins’), I will publicly confess that my previous conclusion is wrong. This denouncement is also an excellent opportunity to apply taqiyya in practice.

          2. *Let’s test my above conclusion. If only one muslim, hidden behind his/her pseudonym, denounces jihad and taqiyya (he can keep it ’77 virgins’),*

            As a muslim,I denounce attacking or killing non-believers though i need not since i never took part in any crimes or supported any violence.
            Taqiyya is not a part of Islam according to the verses of Quran and sayings of Prophet Muhammad. Do some research to verify.

            * I will publicly confess that my previous conclusion is wrong. This denouncement is also an excellent opportunity to apply taqiyya in practice.*

            Nice troll ?
            Many ppl dont reply to you because to them you are worthless,annoying and funny…and most ppl always ignore you..but as you are desperate, i am replying

      2. ” international organizations that track human rights violations against minorities ranks India WORSE than most Muslim countries in this regard.”

        This isn’t persuasive because a lot of those metrics will obviously look bad for any sufficiently diverse, massive, impoverished, and lawless country (Nigeria works similarly.)

        What Razib was talking about is the goals/intentions of BJP heads. Perhaps some of them do see Malaysia’s “Bumiputera” policies as an end goal. We will never know.

      3. I’m not sure how familiar you are with the Hindu Right, but their founding members and even officials to this day explicitly say that killing/expelling every single Muslim from India is their, “worst fevered dream”. There isn’t a single Muslim country where a significant political party (much less the one heading the government) takes analogous positions.

        the ‘hindu right’ is a big group. i know a fair number of the older thinkers. and some of the contemporary ones you quote sound kind of dumb. the question isn’t these people, it’s the majority who are ‘sympathetic.’

        the same thing applies to muslims, whose have crazy genocidal types who are kept under control by ‘moderates’ who nevertheless subscribe to a broadly islamic vision (ennada is probably the extreme end of moderation, though even AKP used to be pretty moderate).

        also, i really don’t believe you that it’s better to be a minority in muslim countries no matter what you say. i think you are a biased bullshitter on this issue in a trollish manner. unless you have some deep knowledge, which i suspect you don’t.

        if you want to have credibility you need to pay into the bank and not be a baiting troll to hindus, which you routinely are. you could actually be right, but you will almost certainly never convince me since i’ve see you operate in too much igorance and/or bad faith on this issue.

        (someone else with more credibility could convince me, so perhaps start an ‘alt’ with a different name and operate unlike an asshole)

        1. Razib, these “genocidal” types don’t exist in 99.99% of Muslim discourse. There are no major figures or parties in the Muslim world that endorse the wholesale wiping out of their non-Muslim minorities.

          This is COMMON among Hindu Nationalists. The works of all the founders of the movement (Sarvarkar, Golwalkar, etc) called for genocide of Muslims in India. These figures are lauded as patriots and intellectuals by the Hindu-right today. Public rallies carried out by the RSS and VHP feature speakers who call on Hindus to rise up and cleanse India of Muslims. Members of these organizations run the government.

          It doesn’t matter what I think visa-vis Muslim countries or India, I have never left the United States. What matters is what international experts on human rights and religious freedom think, and they rank India toward the bottom (behind most Muslim countries) consistently. Me being an asshole doesn’t change what they say.

          I’ve cited all of this numerous times. Above I cited the most recent USCIRF report. I’ve cited Pew’s religious hostility index and HRW/Amnesty International reports. I’ve cited a keynote VHP rally from this year where he calls for genocide against Muslims. I can only lead the horse to the water, I cannot make it drink.

          1. in areas where i know things you do cite things, but often your knowledge runs somewhat superficial. you also have a pretty established track record of talking about hinduism when you also clearly don’t know much about it (you are unfamiliar with things a casual observer would know). you aren’t telling me anything new (i had a period where i read abut sarvakar etc. and am aware of their fascination with fascism, just like arab nationalists).

            you aren’t making things out of whole cloth. but i’m more sanguine about hindu nationalism than you are. and i trust my own judgement more than your judgement because i don’t get a sense you know more than i do. you just have really strong opinions on this for whatever reason.

            when it comes to hindus i think you’re a step more reasonable than internet hindus about islam. but just a step…

          2. “Razib, these “genocidal” types don’t exist in 99.99% of Muslim discourse.”
            That s the problem. In India the whole country is up in arms because of one legislation. In Pakistan, I cant even begin to start listing the shit minorities are going through and there is no “discourse”.

          3. Arjun,
            The Pakistani state is not rewriting citizenship laws to include a religious criteria. If you are born to Pakistani parents, you are a Pakistani, no matter what your religion. Even the Ahmadis, who are officially non-Muslim, have never been made non-Pakistanis.
            An Indian parliamentarian has referred to the Citizenship Amendment Act as a version of the Nuremburg Laws. Indians have no moral high ground to lecture Pakistanis anymore.

            And yes, I know this law doesn’t apply to people who are already Indian citizens. Yet the very act of fast-tracking certain people because of their religion introduces a religious criteria and is a big blot on the “secular” state.

          4. Well we did fast track citizenship of folks depending on their ethnicity by law, like tamils in late 80s, Bengalis in 70s and Gujratis after the Uganda crisis, so their is that.

          5. Ethnicity is not religion. Religious discrimination is not acceptable in any state that calls itself secular.

            If CAA were truly about helping persecuted minorities, it would apply to India’s other neighbors as well. There is a genocide occurring against Rohingya in Myanmar and Tamils are persecuted in Sri Lanka. Uyghurs are persecuted in China. Yet the law applies only to Pakistan, Bangladesh and Afghanistan. Amit Shah himself admitted in Parliament that the rationale for the law goes back to Partition and about helping those whom India sees as its own (never mind that Afghanistan was never part of British India). This law is clearly about becoming a Hindu Rashtra more than it is about any kind of even-handed refugee policy.

    2. I hope the Indian FO called the Malaysian amb and made a strong protest about interfering in Indian internal affairs. I have not seen any news item to that affect.

      In fact , Western white man’s burden is stirring up again I think. there is a signature campaign with many western academics condemning CAA and the proposed NRC.

      Neo Colonialism is also on the rise, with Labour Party passing resolution condemning India on kashmir.

      In these Neo-Colonialists misadventures against India , Muslims are the whips used by the west

    1. Razib,

      Almost every country in the world has a de facto policy of not letting in Rohingya–especially muslim majority countries. The only major exception is Bangladesh–and even there Sheikh Hasina has to find a way to deport many Rohingya or she could lose the next election.

      India brought 40K Rohingya to Kashmir . . . and the Kashmiris were furious at the Rohingya. Now India’s policy is not to let a single Rohingya in.

      My understanding is that the BJP were trying to write CAB in a way that let in Muraqaba Sufis, Muraqabah Irfan Shia, femnist/lbgtq muslims and atheist/ex muslims in. {I don’t understand why the BJP is far more skeptical of letting in Ahmedis . . . but they are.} But they are terrified that the Indian Supreme Court (or APEX court) will strike down certain religious restrictions as unconstitutional and that Rohingya will be allowed in under CAB. Sadly because of this certain persecuted muslims are not being allowed in under CAB.

      I am not a laywer . . . but I would love a CAB bill that explicitly excluded any and all Rohingya from participating (including Rohingya refugees now living in Bangladesh and other third countries) that allowed in “OTHER” persecuted muslims.


      This is a long way of saying that I get why Datuk Mahathir doesn’t want to let the Rohingya in. I too am a gigantic fan of Datuk Mahathir:

  3. Tactical retreat. More focus now on CAA, to galvanize Hindu base. NRC though back door rather than legislative way.

  4. The BJP won 5 Uttar Pradesh seats where the constituency is over 40% muslim. Including Apna Dal the BJP formal coalition won 64 seats. The BSP won 10 seats. The SP won 5 seats. Some members of the BSP ally with the BJP. Some muslims would rather vote for a third party and then work with the BJP in the state assembly and lokh sabha.

    The only pure opposition party to the BJP in Uttar Pradesh is Congress–which won 1 seat.

    In UP many of Shia and Sufi leaders explicitly announce their good relations with CM Yogi Adityanath and PM Modi.

  5. Nationwide NRC is a waste of time and money. Since BJP loves Hindus so much that it will give them citizenship just for asking, what is the point of identifying illegal Hindus? And vast majority of Indian Muslims will be able to prove their citizenship easily. (Take for e.g. South Indian Muslims. A Tamil or Malayali speaking Muslim has to be from India. Where else they would be from?)

    There aren’t as many illegal B’deshi or Pak muslims living in India as BJP would like us to believe. Even in Assam I believe most muslims were able to prove their credentials, but B’deshi Hinuds got caught out).

    In the meantime, reports say that 8 lakh Indians are waiting in the queue for a US green card. Obviously Indian citizenship is not as precious as it is being made out.

    I don’t mind a bit of cultural nationalism, or asking muslims to drop their archaic practices (triple talaq). but Nationwide NRC is just chutiapa.

    It’s the economy, stupid.

    1. As i have said bfore the NRC is the new Ram temple. The “process” is the movement. The final thing will be just as anti-climatic as the Ram temple judgement. Though i agree both CAA and NRC are waste of resources (and political capital) . Trying to cultivate a (Bengali Hindu) votebank which is incredible hostile to u (like the tamils)

      On the economy i differ, India has repeatedly voted for Govt which have demonstrable shown bad economic choices. Nehru’s hindu rate, The left’s 40 year bengal rule, Indira;s 10 year rule etc and has many times voted out Govt which has done economically well. Rao and Vajpayee. So its not the economy stupid in India (at least).

  6. Dunno if anyone follows Aatish Taseer on Twitter, but the dude is hopping mad these days (or at least he pretends to be).

    Guess the mask’s off now. Well done, Guju Bros.

  7. few stray comments:
    1. there are lots of indian tri colour in the muslim protests. earlier it used to be green flags with moon and crescent in all muslim protests. 2. every other muslim now says in open that they are indians.
    3. there are pro CAA demos now.
    4. the way muslims have mobilised, the divide between them and hindus is glaring now.

  8. I would like our Serbian friend to talk of the pagan origins of Christmas, especially in the context of indo european traditions

    1. If you think of me (not of any of local Aryan descendants) there is many things to say. Btw, I already owe few examples to Omar re so-called ‘classical Europe’. First, tomorrow’s Christmas is according to the Catholic’s (Gregorian) calendar. The ‘real’ Christmas according to the calendar at Jesus time is in two weeks. This is a Serbian calendar (known to many as Julius Caesar’s calendar) from which the Gregorian calendar in the 16th c.AC, shifted by two weeks earlier. Julian is used by Orthodox churches (e.g. Russian, Jerusalem’s, etc) while ‘classical’ Greeks switched Christmas to Catholics calendar (but preserved Orthodox Easter). There are so many ‘links‘ btw. Christianity and old Serbian religion. For now, just to say, that the cross is an old Serbian symbol present for thousands of years in Vinca’s alphabet. It became a symbol of Christianity pretty late what is not known to many people, when Jelena, the mother of the Serbian Roman Emperor Constantine who legalised Christianity, visited the Holy land and touched the cross where Jesus was crucified. This day is celebrated by all Christians in the world as – The Exaltation of the Holy Cross (in archaic Serbian – Vozdvizenie Casnog Krsta).

    1. People who constantly resort to personal insults must be deeply insecure. I hope you get over it soon.

        1. I prefer to argue on the issues and not on personalities.

          Frankly, I don’t know you in real life and really don’t give a damn what you think of me.

          People who constantly feel the need to assert how great they are and how high their IQ is have some deep-seated problems. Not to mention how obnoxious that behavior looks coming from someone who is middle-aged.

          1. Intelligence can be increased by exercise, stretching, breathing, music (brain sound therapy), meditation (brain sound therapy).

  9. Kabir says above – “If you are born to Pakistani parents, you are a Pakistani, no matter what your religion.”

    Would be interesting to ask millions of “Biharis” who were abandoned by Pakistan in Bangladesh, after 1971. Except for some of their elites, these Pakistanis were simply abandoned by the Pakistani state.

    I have major concerns about BJP’s social engineering in India. But let’s not try and whitewash what has transpired in Pakistan.

    1. That doesn’t change the fact that Pakistan has no religious criteria for citizenship, despite the fact that the country is an Islamic Republic. The Citizenship Amendment Act and its exclusion of Muslims clearly give a sense that India sees itself as a Hindu Rashtra. The destruction of Nehruvian secularism is a tragedy and cannot be justified by any action of Pakistan’s

  10. Sri Lanka’s debt repayment problems had very little to do with Chinese loans. Chinese loans comprise about 10 per cent of Sri Lanka’s total foreign debt. Of this debt, over 60 per cent was lent to Sri Lanka on concessional terms that, while not as generous as those from Japan — Sri Lanka’s largest bilateral source of loans — were not really excessive (typically at fixed rates of 2 per cent, with other fees of 0.5 per cent and average maturity of 15–20 years).

    Why Sri Lanka is so widely showcased as an example of the dangers of Chinese debt diplomacy despite the fact Chinese loans are clearly not the primary cause of Sri Lanka’s debt imbroglio has more to do with global politics than the real facts of the Sri Lankan case.


  11. AOC has just called US society fascist.

    She obvious doesn’t even understand the meaning of fascism. She probably meant oligarchy. Anyway..

  12. AOC has just called US society fascist.

    She obviously doesn’t even understand the meaning of fascism. She probably meant oligarchy. Anyway..

  13. halfies causing most issues 😉

    Roy (communist christian mallu mother) and Taseer (anti islamist but Punjabi Pak Sunni nationalist daddy)

    Hindutavi might conclude mongrel fealties tend to lay more with Abraham

    Jai Shree Ameen

    1. Bro. U are seriously fixated on taseer. Leave him alone. ??

      He is a small fry overall. After all what fun would we have if we don’t have even a decent enemy to fight ?

  14. Anyone following the whole Truschke vs Sikh thing going on twitter.

    Looks like Ms Truschke finally met her match. ????

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Brown Pundits