119 Replies to “Open Thread – Brown Pundits”

    1. It was indeed criminal neglect to let Kashmiri Pandits rot away in camps, mainly in Jammu. Many Pandits did manage to pick up the pieces and create better lives for themselves in different parts of the country, and all credit to them. But I fail to see what the government could have done other than provide a humane pathway to resettlement for those without such capabilities and support networks.

      The Indian state, then as now, does not have the capacity to force a resettlement of Pandits back in the Valley, given how the Valley’s Muslims feel about the Indian state and how many of them (the jihadis) feel about Hindus, period. Modi and Shah are trying to convince people through bombast that they are the people to deliver this outcome, but as yet I have not seen a feasible plan. The government’s current strategy can only increase the bitterness in the Valley’s public.

      I don’t believe Pandits would like to live on their own (without strong military protection) in what is now a den of Islamists. And the Indian military does not have the capacity to create secure enclaves should Pandits desire them. The alternative is to literally behave like Nazis towards the local Muslims, which is something I hope most Indians would consider too horrendous to allow.

      1. Many Indians and Pakistanis (including many other groups of the world) are very dangerous and harmful…its genetic. Such ppl probably exist in my country also. Their population must be reduced for the greater good of humanity.

        Promoting LGBT using the media,normalizing homosexuality,encouraging ppl to keep pet animals, women empowerment (which is actually a positive thing) and promoting ultra-feminism are some peaceful ways for reducing the population of genetically dangerous groups. It has worked on European groups.

        Violent measures like forced sterilization and racial genocide will ruin our Afterlife. So it is better to reduce their population peacefully

  1. RACE REALISM UPDATE
    *A fairly good amount amount of Hindu-born ppl i’ve seen in my life are Sahas. Most of these Sahas(not 100% though) are significantly well behaved. I believe it is genetic. Jai Shree Saha❤

    *At least 2 “Ghosh”s I’ve known were not good humans. So they need LGBT for quantitative decrease

    *A few Bengali Brahmins I’ve known seemed to be deceptive. So may be Sky=Steppe=Deceptive

    *Baruas seemed to be average humans(neither too good, nor too bad)…do they have higher Mountain blood?

    *Other “Hindu” groups seemed to be like Bengali Muslims in terms of behaviour

    *The largest Bengali group i.e. Bengali Muslims are probably genetically the most diverse Bengali group. So, there are many good and bad people within them

    *I also think that some “hindus”(may be not the majority) look different than average Bengalis…they look more Indian and less Bengali: some look more ASI shifted, some look more ANI shifted,and some look entirely different. Some other ppl also think so

    *I think Bangladeshi Hindus have a bit higher percentage of curlier hair including a Brahmin? I know

    *Satyen Bose and Jagadish Chandra Bose were famous Bengali scientists…both Bose…so Bose=intellectual? Jai Shree Bose❤

    #Beef-eating_intolerant_crazy_conzervative_termites_will_never_be_able_to_destroy_the_glorious_Serbian_Aryan_Vedick_caste_system😠

    SURVIAVAL REALISM UPDATE
    A lot of indian muslims of different ethnicities will lose their citizenship as a lot of ppl didnt preserve documents. In the case of Bengali muslims living in Assam, many of them could prove their citizenship because they were always ready for such situations as they had problems with glorious ching chong Mongoloid Ahoms. But other “muslim”(including atheist “muslims”) groups weren’t ready for such situation. So, due to lack of documents they will lose their citizenship. So,they should start learning Bangla language bcz if they get kicked out, our slave-government may (or may not?) receive them. It will help them assimilate with the mainstream Bangladeshis. Glorious good-looking Puckistani Sky Aryans will not receive them if they dont have the “handsome martial Pungabi” looks…and getting stressed about the future won’t solve anything…BTW is it going to have any huge impact on indian genetics?

    1. Your post doesn’t make sense . wtf was that?
      Are you alright mate?
      Or trolling maybe who knows what people are up to nowadays.

      1. I am suffering from severe insomnia and anxiety. So sometimes my posts can be weird. I am not trolling though…
        get entertained instead of getting involved in online political debates

        For those who dont know,
        River=iran HG
        Mountain= east asian
        Sky=steppe
        Jungle=AASI

    2. A fairly good amount amount of Hindu-born ppl i’ve seen in my life are Sahas. Most of these Sahas(not 100% though) are significantly well behaved. I believe it is genetic. Jai Shree Saha❤”

      They are educated and wealthy, although considered OBC in Indian caste system IIRC.

      “*At least 2 “Ghosh”s I’ve known were not good humans. So they need LGBT for quantitative decrease”

      They are Kayastha. My grandad has a good tie with a Ghosh family. Ghosh are good at making sweets.

      “*A few Bengali Brahmins I’ve known seemed to be deceptive. So may be Sky=Steppe=Deceptive”

      One of my Dad’s close friend is a Chakraborty Brahmin. Infact my Dad was surprised seeing other hindus calling him “Babu” even though his socioeconomic condition wasnt that good. Most Bangladeshis dont know that higher sky genes = Higher prestige 😉

      “Baruas seemed to be average humans(neither too good, nor too bad)…do they have higher Mountain blood?”

      They most likely have higher mountain blood. Many of them have visible mountain traits.

      “*Other “Hindu” groups seemed to be like Bengali Muslims in terms of behaviour”

      Behavior depends on living conditions and education:

      -Some Debnath(Their caste is Yogi-Nath and belongs to OBC i guess) hindus I know do various activities including illegal ones, some of them sell alcoholic beverages which in illegal in BD. Others do goldsmithing.
      – Karmakars(also OBC) or Kamars have been traditionally artisans. Nowdays they are getting in all kinds of jobs.
      – Namasudras(SC) and Jalia Kaibartas(SC) are the poorest and mostly illiterate.
      -Kulin and Maulika Kayasthas like Bose, Ghosh, Guha, Sarkar, Mazumdar, Chowdhury, Dey, Dutta, Mitra, Ray, Mallik, Nag, Nandi, Roy, Pal, Sen, Kar, Das, Sinha, Haldar, Nandi, Aich etc. are generally educated and have a similar behavior as Bengali middle class Muslims.
      – like Kayasthas also Vaidyas(surnames like Dasgupta, Sengupta etc.) are generally educated.

      Like Hindus also muslims behavior depends on their education level and socioeconomic condition. Middle and upper class muslims have very different behavior compared to poor class muslims.

      “*I also think that some “hindus”(may be not the majority) look different than average Bengalis…they look more Indian and less Bengali: some look more ASI shifted, some look more ANI shifted,and some look entirely different. Some other ppl also think so”

      To me all Bengali Muslims and Hindus shows equal amount of diversity, there are so many combinations of traits after all, from Paleolithic/Mesolithic robust cromagnon-like type to Andamanese-related australoid type to Neolithic Gracile mediterranid type to master-race Sky/Aryan type to Mountain type.
      The only hindus that look significantly different are Namasudras and Jalia Kaivartas as they produce more Australoid influenced individuals. Dunno if genetic-wise they are different or not. Also we are yet to discover what jungle(AASI) really is.

      “I think Bangladeshi Hindus have a bit higher percentage of curlier hair including a Brahmin? I know”

      Curly hair is present even in some muslims as well, dunno which ancestry is responsible for that. Could be from any ancestors except mountain and perhaps Sky.

      Btw Eastern Bangladeshis(Chittagong,Comilla,Sylhet) have extra mountain and extra ANI(most likely Sky) compared to BEB samples. Ironically eastern Bangladesh is the most developed part of Bangladesh.
      Jai Shree Mountain+Sky

  2. A less spoken about development in the core middle east minus war zones is the near-universal availability of education for women up to the college level. If you leave aside Yemen, other gulf Arab countries and Iran have very high literacy levels for school-age girls. I would even say that gulf Arabs would follow the Iranian phenomenon of eventually having more women than men in universities.

    In a way proceeds from oil have helped out these women by fast-forwarding by their educational status by over a generation, otherwise, their situation would be more similar to the women of Egypt and Sudan.

    This would lead to some interesting developments over the next 50+ years – with the ubiquity of social media and information flow, for how long would these women allow themselves to be legally relegated to an inferior position? Perhaps a variation of the suffragette movement that happened in Europe in the early 1900s would take place?

    After a while, there will be a visible difference between these countries and the non-natural resource manpower-heavy Muslim regions like Pakistan and northern Nigeria. I would draw a religious comparison to Spain and the Philippines, the former was effectively Roman Catholic Saudi Arabia throughout the Age of Discovery, but today it’s more agnostic thanks to higher standards of living, whereas the latter is still poor and super-religious.

    We may have a situation in 2070 where Saudi Arabia and Iran are like Spain/Italy w.r.t. agnosticism being widespread whereas Pakistan would be more like the Philippines (and still near fundamentalist) because of not enough widespread education.

    1. What an insightful comment!

      Not that I think about it, Saudi Arabia has undergone massive legal changes in the last couple of years. (Hijab, women driving etc).

      Riyadh in particular is changing very fast. Perhaps the success of the UAE has made it a sort of a model for other oil rich gulf Arab countries to follow.

      Maybe I am dreaming too much, as I would love to see a more developed and more liberal middle east in the next 50 years.

  3. Goats courtesy of Davidski

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2020/01/15/2020.01.14.905505.full.pdf

    ” Within domestic goats, PCA and model-based clustering (k = 3) show that Asian goats are genetically distinct from European (EUR) and African (AFR) samples (Figs. 1D and 113 1E). At k = 6, Asian goats further split into two geographic subgroups: Southwest
    114 Asia-South Asia (SWA-SAS) and East Asia (EAS) (Fig. 1E and figs. S8 to S10). ”

    “Our demographic analyses using MSMC, SMC++, and ∂a∂i indicate that the divergence times amongst Asian, African and European goat populations predated the archaeologically estimated domestication time by a large margin (figs. S11 to S17,
    122 table S7, and text S2). ”

    Doesn’t seem to help with OIT/AIT debate.

  4. I’d some day like to visit the ancestral homeland. I know that the big cities (Mumbai, Delhi, Chennai) are pretty dirty to varying degrees (excluding probably Kerala), but what about the smaller tier cities? Say Salem, Madurai, etc.?

    1. They’re cleaner just because they have a smaller population and not because they have a better civic sense.

    2. A general rule of thumb is that the ‘non-brown’ north-east states are cleaner than the deep south (Kerala and Tamil Nadu + parts of Karnataka and Andhra) are cleaner than western states (Maha + Guj) are cleaner than ‘north-north’ states (Himachal + Uttaranchal + Punjab + Haryana) are cleaner than central states (Madhya P. + Chattisgarh + Orissa) are cleaner than core Gangetic India.

      (Disclaimer: experiences above are a few years old, things may have changed)

      Note: There are some exceptions to the above with certain municipal corporations being more effective, eg. Indore is relatively cleaner even though it’s in a central state.

      Assuming by your username that you are of Indian origin and from the Caribbean, it is likely that your ancestors arrived from present-day Uttar Pradesh and Bihar, both of which unfortunately still have a long way to go in terms of urban cleanliness and sanitation.

      The good news is that improvements are coming pretty quickly, even in north India. Another 10 years of Swachh Bharat and some public awareness will hopefully change the heartland enough for differences to be visible.

      If you live in a developed country then most of India would seem relatively messy and chaotic, the differences between the regions mentioned in the first para above are more noticeable to other Indians rather than foreigners.

      1. Have no intention of visiting UP/Bihar. My forebears left it for a reason, after all.

        Would very much like to visit the southern/western states, particularly Tamil Nadu and Kerala. Fascinated by Tamil history and culture. (Might also have some Madrassi antecedents, but that’s neither here nor there.)

    3. Kerala as you suggest is both densely populated and clean. I found Madurai to be fairly clean but Salem not so much.

    4. Mr. Carib,

      How long ago did your ancestors go to the Caribbean from the Desh and what part of India might they have gone from?

      1. At the risk of revealing too much, my ancestors on my grandmother’s side were likely among the first group of indentures to come from India in the 1840s. Almost certainly they were from UP/Bihar. Grandpa’s side less clear. Unsure of when they came and from where, but might be of partial Tamil descent on that side. (A small number of Tamil migrants came to the Caribbean.)

    5. On the one hand, India has grown tremendously as a tourist destinations, earnings from foreign tourists in dollars have more than doubled in the last 8 years.

      On the other hand, the country remains a fairly average tourist destination due to cleanliness and pollution issues. There is an entire ecosystem of Western travellers with youtube channels about travel in India, I think their videos are a good place for you to start.

  5. You got 3 seconds to answer this question:

    Who’s your favourite female scientist?

    If you did, then it’s okay. If you didn’t then think whether you could have answered if the question was about male scientist. A friend of mine created a discussion on this last topic, last week.

  6. So yesterday at work, one nurse started joking around with me and said “I bet that when you have the attending money [finish residency], you’ll eat a steak every day, huh”?

    I chuckled and said “sounds tempting, but I don’t eat steak, remember”?

    I wasn’t angry, it was an innocuous point. And I’m not opposed to Americans eating beef in the abstract. But I never cease to be amazed at how much Americans EXALT beef-eating. Apparently the first thing you do when you have money is not buy a bottle, or a suit, or high-end boots, but…a steak.

    Obviously this is on a collision course with Hinduism, and this American obsession with beef-eating ultimately a major reason why I rejected and turned against America, now seeing it merely as a place to make and spend money.

    1. Go tell her: “I have no beef with you brough, but you have no steak in deciding my diet.”

      Whatever you receive in microaggressions, deal back equally with smooth punmanship.

      1. Hahaha…I like the puns, but I don’t think it was a micro aggression. This was a genuinely friendly person who probably had no idea that Hindus don’t eat beef, or even what Hinduism is. Her statement simply reflects the exalted position of beef-eating in American culture at large.

        1. “Her statement simply reflects the exalted position of beef-eating in American culture at large.”

          Replace beef eating with ‘drinking’ (muslim) or ‘bacon’ (jewish) or ‘meat’ (vegetarians) or ‘dairy’ (vegans)

          I am sympathetic to the sense of disenfranchisement and alienation with the mainstream culture. But this is a bit silly tbh.

    2. Dude, you sound like a leftie complaining about a microaggression. Would YOU be as sensitive towards people who are full vegetarians (like me)? Otherwise, just chill out and recognize that people are different but that everyone cannot be cognizant about others’ differences all the time. There would be no basis for people to banter or have a conversation then.

      If it’s too much for you though, you can always move to UP.

      1. I agree. I don’t see what the issue is. “Rejecting” America because of the “obsession” with beef-eating seems bizarre to me. Muslim and Jewish Americans don’t eat pork while bacon is part of mainstream American culture. As you mentioned, many people are complete vegetarians. Most people seem to be able to get along just fine.

        “Rejecting” a country only makes sense if you are against its fundamental values, not over something as petty as food choices.

        1. Actually I am against America and its fundamental values. I in fact think Indians and (White) Americans might as well be considered different species d/t their intractably massive cultural and behavioral differences.

          1. What are the fundamental values that you are against? Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? The idea that people can come from anywhere and become Americans as long as they agree to abide by the US Constitution? Equality for all? Separation of church and state?

            South Asia would be much better off if our countries adopted these ideals instead of majoritarianism and ethnonationalism.

          2. I think Americans should have Mo cartoon restaurants that serve beef with waiting staff dressed as Adolf with “Jesus lied, Jews were right” emblazoned on the menus, complete with Guru Nanak toilet paper in the loo and Buddha urinals.

          3. Would you care to elaborate?

            I don’t really feel like I belong in any of the Anglosphere countries (only have experience in Canada and America, but can’t imagine the others would be any different).

            Not really against any of the fundamental values, just don’t feel accepted as a first class citizen due to my Indian heritage.

            But at the same time I don’t really feel at home in India. Probably due to not sharing some core values, I am more of a westerner at heart.

            So for the time being I am just traveling the world as a perpetual outsider hopping from place to place.

          4. What state do you live in HM? In California at least, it’s easy enough to find social bubbles where white Americans aren’t normative.

      2. “If it’s too much for you though, you can always move to UP.”

        Most UP muslims are twelver or Sufi. Don’t want them to hurt the feelings of our dear naive Kabir.

        In UP, about half of politically active muslims overtly ally with Yogi Adityanath and the BJP.

        Yogi Adityanath is the chief Mahant of the Goraknath Math–one of the most important in eastern philosophy. For over a thousand years many Sufi muslims have been connected to the Goraknath Math and many other Dharmic sampradayas. Often when Daesh or Al Qaeda kill Sufi muslims they say “Nath, Nath, Nath . . . ” or “Siddha, Siddha, Siddha . . .”. Yogi Adityanath is fiercely protective of his muslims. And in UP–at least–Sufis and Shia are very overt and direct in debating conservative Sunni males.

        These UP muslims are vastly more knowledgeable about the holy Koran, Hadith, Sira than our dear friend. Far more educated in general. Brainy too.

        1. Learn to read before you start spouting off about who is more “educated” and “brainy”.

          The “Go to UP comment” was addressed to HM who was so upset by beef-eating in the US.

        2. “Yogi Adityanath is fiercely protective of his Muslims”

          Really? By allowing them to be lynched? By having his police attack Aligarh Muslim University?

          Some examples of Yogi’s “protection” of Muslims:
          “In an undated video that surfaced on YouTube during August 2014, Adityanath, reportedly during a public speech at Azamgarh, referring to the religious conversions due to inter-religious marriages, has said, “if they take one Hindu girl, we will take 100 Muslims girls.” In the same video, he continues by saying, “if they kill one Hindu, there will be 100 that we” and pauses, as the gathered crowd shouts: “kill”.[63][54][64]

          In February 2015, while speaking at the Vishwa Hindu Parishad’s ‘Virat Hindu Sammelan’, Adityanath commented: “If given a chance, we will install statues of Goddess Gauri, Ganesh and Nandi ” — Hindu deities — “in every mosque.”[65][14][66][67]

          In June 2015, Adityanath, while talking about Surya Namaskara, and Yoga said that those who want to avoid Yoga can leave Hindustan. He “requested” those who see communalism in the Sun God to drown themselves in the sea or live in a dark room for the rest of their lives.[68]

          During the intolerance debate in the Indian media in late 2015, Adityanath commented that actor Shah Rukh Khan was using the same “language” as Pakistani terrorist Hafiz Saeed.[69][70]”

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogi_Adityanath

          1. Kabir, if you want to discuss UP, shouldn’t you study it?

            “Really? By allowing them to be lynched? By having his police attack Aligarh Muslim University?”

            You realize that before 1947 and for the first two generations after 1947 UP twelvers and sufis were violently attacked by conservative Sunnis? Now the UP twelvers and sufis are in power in UP through their buddy Yogi Adityanath.

            If anyone tries to lynch Sufis or Shia–Yogi knows what to do with them. Isn’t this a good thing?

            Why are you intentionally conflating conservative Sunni males (a la Zakir Naik) with good patriotic Indian Sufis and Shia? I don’t think you would do very well in a place dominated by conservative Sunnis. I think you would do far, far better in a place such as UP where Yogi protects you. Just please don’t insult UP Sufis and Shia while in UP, okay. They aren’t exactly Pakistani Army fans.

            “Some examples of Yogi’s “protection” of Muslims:
            “In an undated video that surfaced on YouTube during August 2014, Adityanath, reportedly during a public speech at Azamgarh, referring to the religious conversions due to inter-religious marriages, has said, “if they take one Hindu girl, we will take 100 Muslims girls.” In the same video, he continues by saying, “if they kill one Hindu, there will be 100 that we” and pauses, as the gathered crowd shouts: “kill”.[63][54][64]”

            You realize he was talking to conservative Sunni males right? And not talking about Sufis and Shia? I am skeptical about how accurate these Hindi translations are. Don’t trust the global post modernist media.

            I am deeply uncomfortable with any jokes about muslim females. Muslim females are “OUR” females. They are our sisters, aunts, grandmothers, nieces and daughters. We should give our lives to protect them. Including protecting them from conservative Sunni males and Islamists and the Pakistani Army.

            If Yogi really made a joke about muslim females in Hindi–then I strongly disagree.

            “In February 2015, while speaking at the Vishwa Hindu Parishad’s ‘Virat Hindu Sammelan’, Adityanath commented: “If given a chance, we will install statues of Goddess Gauri, Ganesh and Nandi ” — Hindu deities — “in every mosque.”[65][14][66][67]”

            Again I question the translation. I think he is talking about former temples that were forcibly converted into mosques and the model of shared muslim nonmuslim spaces (a la Dargahs, Sufi places, Irfan Shia places, Shirdi Sai Nath temples). What is wrong with Muslims praying side by side with nonmuslims? Muslim holy places and objects would be honored and kept as is.

            “In June 2015, Adityanath, while talking about Surya Namaskara, and Yoga said that those who want to avoid Yoga can leave Hindustan. He “requested” those who see communalism in the Sun God to drown themselves in the sea or live in a dark room for the rest of their lives.[68]”

            Cracking a joke. The Sun in the sky and science are not sectarian. Yoga is not sectarian. Many Indian muslims do not think they are sectarian. The Sun has several symbolic meanings. One is the inner fire within our bodies (including the stomach and parts of our Parasympathetic nervous system–shushumna nadi). Another is a reference to the concept of intelligence broadly defined. Or General Intelligence (that which is correlated between the 8 Charles Spearman defined intelligences) plus what Dr. Richard J. Haier would call cognitive abilities beyond the scope of general intelligence.

            How is “intelligence” sectarian? Do you think mathematics is sectarian and racist? Do you believe in “scientific racism”?

            “During the intolerance debate in the Indian media in late 2015, Adityanath commented that actor Shah Rukh Khan was using the same “language” as Pakistani terrorist Hafiz Saeed.[69][70]””

            I am a fan of Shah Rukh Khan and think his marriage is a model for muslim non muslim marriages. Rajiv Malhotra thinks so too. So do many BJP, RSS, Shiv Sena and VHP Indians. To the degree Yogi said something akin to this–he was wrong. Again, I would like to verify the translation from Hindi.

          2. And now we’re reduced to questioning if Yogi ever made the vile statements he did because we don’t trust “postmodernist media”? You are truly delusional.

            Your attempts to divide Shia from Sunnis are transparent. A Hindu who is lynching a Muslim for eating beef is not first going to say “Excuse me a moment, before I kill you would you tell me your exact position on Hazrat Ali?”

  7. There’s no doubt about the presence of Islamist element in anti-CAA protests. I have been contemplating about this issue a lot lately, I have come to a realization that anxieties of Muslims are not unfounded as we have seen previously over-enthusiastic and gloated comments from Amit Shah and his troops. Now that the genie is out of the bottle, it will be interesting to see how things will unfold. Time has arrived for social reformers and gurus of India to show their spirituality and soothe anxieties of both Muslims of India and Hindus of South Asia. I don’t think I can imagine an India where my family will not be chanting a Muslim guru’s name or visiting a Dargah! I support CAA and NRC on the grounds that countries can choose to control the immigration and countries can choose to take persecuted minorities like USA, UK, Europe do. However, previous comments from Amit Shah’s are unfair towards Muslims and vitriolic. I don’t deny that Christians (evangelists) go around India preaching that Hindus are devil worshippers and ‘real Muslims’ go around telling themselves that Hindus are kaffirs/idolators and praise the early ‘turko/arabic-Muslim’ invaders as their saviors.

    1. Dravidacharya,

      Can you touch base offline? Brown Pundits is thinking of interviewing the head of the Chistie order–perhaps the largest muslim order in the world after the twelvers. This Jivith Pir is deeply revered by PM Modi, the BJP, RSS, VHP and Shiv Sena. We plan to interview another Sufi pir first.

      Would like your feedback on what to ask them.

      As Sufi/Shia adjacent, I think we need to help our Dharmic sisters (almost all males are female in many interpretations of eastern philosophy) better understand and meet the needs of our Sufi Irfan sisters and brothers.

    2. Dravidarya, Will you please point me to what Amit Shah said in the past that was especially anxiety-inducing for muslims? My (admittedly not huge) sampling of his speeches make me think of him as a thoughtful moderate (but yes, hindutvavadi.). And he looks like a goon, but hopefully we go beyond that :-). But I’d genuinely like some links (beyond just the termite comment for illegal immigrants).

      Your broader point, I completely agree. There is a need for emotional healing and reassurance for Muslims, maybe along with some historical truth-and-reconciliation. I worry that it has become a race between salafi radicalism vs education/development and other forces for moderation for the heart of Muslim community.

  8. “Muslims’ go around telling themselves that Hindus are kaffirs/idolators and praise the early ‘turko/arabic-Muslim’ invaders as their saviors.”

    Kind of like how Hindus go around telling themselves that Muslims are mlecchas and praise the early Indo Aryan invaders as their saviors.

    1. Have a solution for Indthings. Go to any major gathering of orthodox or devout Hindus who regularly do sadhana and have studied their own tradition; and say that the following people are mlecchas:
      —Rumi
      —Moinuddin Chishti
      —Shirdi Sai Baba
      —Janardan Swami
      —Kabir
      —Nund Rishi
      —Mian Mir
      —Fariduddin Ganjshakar
      —Hazrat Babajan
      —Tajuddin Muhammad Badruddin

      Please videotape this interaction. Thank you.

      Please repeat the above in front of RSS, VHP, Shiv Sena and BJP gatherings. Thank you.

    2. Kind of like how Hindus go around telling themselves that Muslims are mlecchas and praise the early Indo Aryan invaders as their saviors.

      do you know this happens? i know what you are responding to happens as you do too. curious what hindus do say.

      1. I was called mleccha on this website.

        Its a common slur used by Hindus on right-wing forums against Muslims. You don’t hear it often in public and polite society but the same is true of kuffar as well.

        Mleccha was a common term used by Hindus in the pre-modern period to denote Muslims in the subcontinent. A lot more common back then, but so were terms like kuffar and idolater to casually refer to Hindus.

      2. I don’t think the common hindu is familiar with the word mleccha. You’d need a sanskrit or indology background to come across it and to my knowledge its a dorky archaism if used in a modern language. I participate in my fair share of absurd and rude conversations and have never heard anyone use it. Otherwise, there are some profoundly vulgar epithets that non-muslims in India have for muslims, and for specific castes of people and so forth, as one would expect.

        1. Orthodox brahminical rhetoric used to use M word. In 1906 one young man Vanchinathan Iyer shot dead collector of Tinnevelly district Mr.Ash.. In his last will he asked how a beef eating Mleccha I.e the British can rule over Hindus, that was his justification for the assasination and he committed suicide

          In the Tamil poems of Subramania Bharathi also many pejorative ref to Mleccha ie foreign rulers. But they wouldn’t refer to Indian Muslims as Mleccha.

          With orthodox brahminism on the defensive in free India, it is hardly used
          However anyone with passing knowledge of traditional lit knows it.

          1. ‘Malechha’ was literally used for any foreign originated muslim or non-muslim specifically who were hostile towards natives. A few generations ago a common ‘slur’ for the muslims in Hindi belt was ‘Turkan Malechha’. You can see they literally considered muslims Turkish(maybe due to their mixed ancestry).

            I also use the word ‘Malechha’ but only for foreign invaders particularly the people who are known to be non-adherents to the principals of ‘Dharma'(includes British).

            These days in traditionalists’ circle the word malechha is used for Islamic ideology(again due to it’s hostility towards native culture) but not specifically for muslims.
            I guess ‘hostility’ is the keyword here.

          2. \ it’s like calling someone a ‘negro’\
            In the case of US blacks, the demand for “renaming” came from them , even though Negro and Black linguistically mean the same thing – the former from Latin, that is all, the latter English.
            Mleccha was and is used in opposition to Arya.

            Hindutva is hardly brahminical, so I don’t think Hindutva formally or even informally uses the M word

        2. One of them is ‘turuka’! Other derived one is ‘turuka tuttura’, predominantly used when Muslims butcher telugu/sanskrit derived words. Another prejudiced/ pseudo -scientific explanations given for the inability of Muslims to pronounce telugu/sanskrit words is that they eat beef which makes their tongues thicker so, they can’t simply twist and turn their tongues like hindus can with their slim tongues 🙂

  9. Uttar Pradesh: No loudspeakers for azaan, Allahabad High Court junks plea against no loudspeaker order at 2 mosques

    https://www.opindia.com/2020/01/allahabad-high-court-azaan-mosque-uttar-pradesh/

    ““No religion prescribes or preaches that prayers are required to be performed through voice amplifiers or by beating of drums. If there is such a practice, it should not adversely affect rights of others, including that of not being disturbed,” the court observed.”

    After decades of unbridled privileges even equality feels like oppression. Very sad.

    1. Excellent so I expect that all Hindu celebrations that take place in public spaces, where people are subjected to water/color throwing, loud chants, and also music, will be stopped as well? No?

      Hindus staging religious processions in public space, often right outside mosques, where they shout Hindu-supremacist slogan and blast music everywhere: Totally Fine.

      Muslims calling to prayer over loudspeakers: Unbridled Privilege.

      1. Religion should be practiced privately. If something needs to be done in public it should happen with right permissions from the government and the SOCIETY where it happens.

        1. Pakistan, and most Islamists generally, agree with Hindu Nationalists on this.

          Minorities don’t have actual rights or freedoms. They exist at the sufferance of the mob.

          Indians will obviously run their country as they want, but they should have the courage to be honest about what it is they are doing (like Islamists), and stop paying lip-service to this “privileged minority” nonsense.

      2. “Excellent so I expect that all Hindu celebrations that take place in public spaces, where people are subjected to water/color throwing, loud chants, and also music, will be stopped as well? No?”

        The administration usually gives a leeway to one-off events like Holi and Muharram, although Diwali has come under the scanner recently.

        Almost no Hindu places blare their loudspeakers every single day (especially not early in the morning). The ones that do are mostly in small localities and do it with the consent of the community.

        Sometimes these communities come in contact with the posh urban India and irrespective of religion, you see complaints. The azaan complaint is of a similar nature.

        I have myself called the police during Ganesh Chaturthi when folks kept playing music till 2am.

        1. Muharram is shiite (twelver and sixer). BJP/RSS/VHP/Shiv Sena are more likely to be supportive of Muharram since most Indian Shiites are politically allied with them. Having said the above I have been told that in West Bengal this is less true than in the rest of India. I wonder about the twelver and sixer vote in Bangladesh and their sympathies for India and the BJP/RSS/VHP/Shiv Sena coalition. Could Bangladeshis chime in?

          In West Bengal even non BJP CM Mamata Banerjee has been supportive of Muharram (cynically some might say in an effort to win over the twelver and sixer vote from the BJP). However in 2019 a lot of West Bengal muslims allied with the BJP.

          Muharram happens once a year and I don’t think Hindus (including Buddhists, Jains, Sikhs) care too much about it. Plus many Hindus (including Buddhists, Jains, Sikhs) live in Shia neighborhoods and find the areas with many Shia to be safer for them and more supportive of them. Shia and Sufi are Hindu tilted and Hindu allied muslims.

          I have traveled through much of India. Anecdotally the large majority of the load sounds I have heard are of a muslim nature. I think the commute hour Azaans are fine . . . since vehicular traffic is so load. The one that gnaws some (muslim and nonmuslim alike) is the 4:30 AM to 5:30 AM one. Every where I go in India I hear 4:30 AM to 5:30 AM Azaan. Personally I like hearing it. It would be nice, however if the various Azaans were coordinated slightly better. In villages across India many mosques compete to be loader than the nearby mosques early in the morning. They make sure they play the Azaan at different times.

          BTW, most Hindus (including Buddhists, Jains, Sikhs) “LOVE” listening to Sufi songs. Although I have been told that many Hindus–who have grown up listening and singing Sufi songs since early childhood–think they are Hindu songs. :LOL:

          To Indthings above . . . many Indian muslims would say that a Sufi or Shia can only safely practice their religion in India and a few other places. India is the global center for Shia and Sufi Islam.

          At long last India has a Prime Minister and government who is starting to understand this and publicly overtly embrace the Shia and Sufi. Not enough. India needs to do this a lot more.

          Praise be to Allah that India isn’t ruled by the Pakistani Army which in 1988 helped Osama Bin Laden slaughter many thousands of Shia in Gilgit Kashmir.

          The most popular temples I saw on my most recent trip to India were Shirdi (half muslim) temples. India has thousands of them in every part of India. Muslims and Hindus pray shoulder to shoulder together. In Dargahs across UP, Agra, Ajmer, Maharashtra, AP, Telengana, Delhi and Tamil Nadu too.

      3. Hindu celebrations happen only on specific days of the year and only in specific regions that too mostly during daytime (unlike daily azans at the mosques). It’s not like people are asking for ban on various muslim celebrations and processions(including rather questionable Muharram). Don’t compare festivals with daily rituals.
        For loudspeakers I support ban in temples, gurudwaras, churches too.
        Nothing is more irritating than 4 am azan from three mosques in my neighborhood same goes for week-long ‘Bhagwat kathas’ in homes.

  10. Indians will obviously run their country as they want, but they should have the courage to be honest about what it is they are doing (like Islamists), and stop paying lip-service to this “privileged minority” nonsense.

    off-topic, but multiple ppl (including my father) have argued in a muslim society minorities have privilege. the dhimmi-tax is only cuz they are protected by soldiers, who can only be muslims (muslims don’t pay tax cuz they serve?).

    1. Even more off-topic, in a number of Muslim majority countries non-Muslims and secular Muslims are in fact privileged over practicing Muslims. This is the case in all the Stan countries (minus Afg/Pak), Albania/Bosnia, and until recently Turkey. Probably Tunisia and Azerbaijan as well.

      But generally speaking the discussion, as you hinted at, revolves around specific privileges non-Muslims have (or would have) in a Muslim country. But nobody really argues that non-Muslims are (or would be) privileged over all at the expense of Muslims. And even these minor points about specific privileges are largely reactive following Western criticism of minority-rights in Islam.

      I don’t care much for these specific privileges, as they are either just not true, or they are true and deployed to whitewash the overall poor treatment of minorities in Muslim countries. But for the record, yes, it can be argued that the early dhimmi tax was a privilege for non-Muslims.

      1. But for the record, yes, it can be argued that the early dhimmi tax was a privilege for non-Muslims.

        women are privileged over men because they aren’t drafted for war.

        but the privilege masks the reality that to some extent the male call to serve reflects their assumed leadership role and domination in society.

    2. ” the dhimmi-tax is only cuz they are protected by soldiers, who can only be muslims (muslims don’t pay tax cuz they serve?).”

      What tax would Hindu soldiers pay? Dhimmi tax since they are Dhimmis, or no tax and be considered as honorary muslim.

      There is this interesting anecdote that Akbar wanted his family to join his new startup religion and asked Man Singh to convert. Man Singh seems to have replied that i am a Hindu, if u ask i can convert to Islam , but how can i convert to some religion which i dont understand 😛

  11. Combining the recent discussions on a counterfactual unconquered India and Indian influence on SE Asia…

    I wonder if insular SE Asia would remain Hindu to this day, if Islamic polities had never gotten a foothold in India. In a sense, insular SE Asia never stopped following the example of India, because its rulers converted to Islam just a few centuries after most of India came under the rule of Muslims.

    Would Indonesian rajas have been so eager to convert to the religion of Arab traders, if all the kings they knew of back in the civilizational mother country were Hindus? If there were no Muslim sovereigns closer than the Arabian peninsula? And without state support, would Islam in SE Asia be any bigger than it is in Kerala or Tamil Nadu?

    And that’s without assuming that in this alternate timeline, without the ever-present threat of Turkic conquest dynasties, Hindu Indian polities could afford to take an active interest in the politics and trade of SE Asia a la the Cholas.

    1. “Would Indonesian rajas have been so eager to convert to the religion of Arab traders, if all the kings they knew of back in the civilizational mother country were Hindus?”

      What would have happened had the S-E asian kings than would have started the crusades to free their ” mother civilization” ? 😛

    2. The forces that brought an end to the classical dynasties of India are unclear. By the 14th century they all seem to fall, the Chola, Pandya, Hoysala, Kadamba, Kakatiya, Seuna, Chera, eastern Gangas. There is a bizarre completeness to this historic phenomena of millennium old lineages all ending around a similar time. The turko-islamic power projection into the subcontinent wasn’t so thorough to explain why even the subsequent hindu polities like Vijayanagara, Gajapatis, Zamorin, did not have credible links to the old houses. One might presume that the idea of kingship itself radically changed, and it really needs to be evaluated comparatively with other regions what the broader economic and cultural forces were. This is all to say that whatever reasons sumatrans and javanese had to become hindu in the first place are probably why they became muslim later . By interacting with a more dynamic culture perhaps. Indian culture, whether Hindu or Islamicate, just wasn’t very exceptional in the 15-16th century in the way it was in the classical period of the 1st millennium.

    3. all the austronesian indian ocean ppl except for malagasy converted to islam. i think the key is the capture of the indian ocean trade network by muslims. the process seems to have started before the turks conquered india. so i’m not sure if that would have made a difference.

  12. Cod wrote:

    “‘Malechha’ was literally used for any foreign originated muslim or non-muslim specifically who were hostile towards natives.”

    In the early books of the Rig Veda wheat was considered “mleccha bhojya” or food for the uncivilized people. The early books are placed in the east where diets were predominantly rice based. The Rig Veda describes many kinds of rice cakes but none to my knowledge any wheat preparations. Please check Talageri’s work for exact references.

  13. SARS and the more recent Chronovirus Outbreak from Wuhan are both from China..

    Why has India not produced comparable outbreaks despite a higher level of filth, comparable population, and worse system of governance?

    Serious question.

    1. The common element among all the Asian epidemics has been unsanitary conditions in which animals are raised for food.

      It may be the accident of Indian diet (and the accompanying fussiness about what one eats) that has spared us from similar outbreaks.

      1. Maybe the causation is in the other direction. The whole purity and food restrictions are due to heavy disease loads like cholera, typhoid, malaria, small pox and diarrhea. Not to mention tape worms and other parasites. Even festivals are around eating anti-bacterial leaves like Neem, turmeric. It is no accident to give up wholesale on good protein sources.

        This may also be the key to second gen middle castes doing well in the US without regression to mean. Reduced disease and parasite load in early development.

    2. The Brahmanical caste system not only insulates Indians from conversion to Islam, it insulates them from communicable disease.

      1. “The Brahmanical caste system not only insulates Indians from conversion to Islam, it insulates them from communicable disease.”

        Some here might say they are one and the same thing.

  14. I wrote:

    “In the early books of the Rig Veda wheat was considered “mleccha bhojya” or food for the uncivilized people. The early books are placed in the east where diets were predominantly rice based. The Rig Veda describes many kinds of rice cakes but none to my knowledge any wheat preparations. Please check Talageri’s work for exact references.”

    Corrections after double checking Talageri’s books: The Rig Veda does not mention any grain by name. The word yava found in the Rig Veda has been translated by scholars as just grain. Preparations such as Apupa, Purolas and Odana mentioned in the Rig Veda have been translated as rice cakes based on later practices. Scholars both Indian and Western agree that wheat was unknown to the composers of the Rig Veda. Wheat came to be considered as “mlecchabhojya” food for barbaric people during the time of Panini.

    My apologies.

      1. Brown wrote:

        “Witzel equates Yava dhanya as barley. but in day to day rituals of shradha, yava is just rice.”

        Rice (Vrihi) is specifically mentioned in the Atharvaveda. So for an invasionist scholar like Wtizel it is best not to equate Rig Vedic yava with rice right away. Griffith, however translates Rig Vedic Odana as “brew of rice” or “a brew of milk and rice” . Griffith also includes rice cake as part of the five fold offering to Agni (Rig Veda I.40.3).

        Now we know that rice was cultivated at Lahurdeva as early as 7000 BCE

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lahuradewa

        This definitely helps the case for OIT but without hurting the case for AIT as the arriving Indo Aryans would have known about rice anyway in their scheme of 1500 BCE.
        Source: Talageri (2015) Rig Veda and the Avesta the Final Evidence pp. 102-3

  15. amusing troll comment.

    Too bad you’re not brown razib you’re black

    The arabs of Saudi are brown

    Polynesians are brown

    Egyptians are brown

    Southern Iranians are brown

    Iraqis are brown

    Pakistanis are brown

    You’re some self hating austro asiatic hindu gangadeshi dweller

    The main reason for ghazwa e hind is to get rid of your types

    Those anglo saxon gog magogite trash in america and europe cant escape their fate when the Imam arrives too


    The pink neanderthal race will lose to Islam and so will you australoid boy.

    1. In case it isn’t obvious to everyone, this is another troll comment by an “internet Hindu” (I recall you posting an earlier one where they were playing as an Afghan supremacist).

    1. pretty smart for a troll. (he/she knows europeans have more neanderthal genes than the rest of the humanity; knows southern iranians are noticeably darker than northern iranians).

      encourage him to post more. may be invite him for a podcast.

      1. Scorpion_eater: I wrote a reply to you on the “South Asian Muslim ancestors were idolaters!” thread in case you missed it..

  16. Kabir, can you reproduce videos of Yogi speaking in Hindi saying these things?

    https://scroll.in/article/896582/a-far-cry-from-adityanaths-hindutva-the-nath-yogi-tradition-has-a-history-of-religious-pluralism

    Several leading members of the Gorakhnath Math have been muslims going back centuries. Many of the leaders of Yogi’s sampradaya have been and are muslims, including their many schools, hospitals and social works. Yogi is the head Mahanth of the Gorakhnath Math.

    Yogi is very publicly and proudly allied with Shia and Sufi. 5 Shia/Sufi districts in UP (with over 40% of the electorate being muslim) are part of Yogi’s BJP base.

    If you are upset with Shia and Sufi allying with Yogi . . . maybe ask them why they ally with Yogi. About half of UP muslims ally with Yogi in some way.

    What is wrong with Yogi backing the Sufis and Shia? I like Sufis and Shia.

    1. The Wiki article has listed examples of Yogi’s anti-Muslim speeches. The article’s sources are cited. If you choose to disbelieve those sources because you find them “postmodernist”, that is your prerogative. There is not much I can do to convince you.

      There is nothing wrong with backing Sufis and Shia but attempts to create division within the Muslim community are painfully transparent. As I mentioned above, a Hindu mob out to lynch Muslims for eating beef doesn’t usually stop to find out their sectarian affiliation first.

      A cursory Google search provides the following articles about Yogi’s anti-Muslim behavior. Again, feel free to dismiss them as being “postmodernist”. If you are determined to defend someone, you will find a way–evidence be damned.

      https://scroll.in/article/948194/we-knew-adityanath-was-hostile-to-muslims-but-did-we-expect-his-regime-to-be-so-savage

      1. This article as well:
        https://www.reuters.com/article/us-india-election-ban/india-temporarily-bans-bjp-state-chief-minister-from-campaign-after-anti-muslim-comment-idUSKCN1RR188

        “India’s election commission on Monday banned a Hindu state chief minister from campaigning for three days after anti-Muslim comments in an election that will end next month.
        The saffron-clad Yogi Adityanath, a member of Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s ruling party, had been warned this month about his campaign speeches, the election commission said.

        The commission said Adityanath, chief minister of Uttar Pradesh, had spoken about a “green virus” in a speech last week in reference to Muslim voters who he said were being wooed by opposition parties. ”

        Is India’s election commission “postmodernist” too?

  17. In the last few months, I have met a lot of people in India who have applied for or are going to apply for a Canadian PR. All of these are yuppies with decent education but not top tier education and middle to upper-middle-class upbringing. Moving to Canada is now seen as a sort of a career move.

    Earlier, emigration was concentrated around states like Punjab, Gujarat, and Andhra Pradesh but it seems to have become very widespread lately.

    Feels like an exodus. Wonder if at some point this will become a major topic of discussion.

    1. See the dataset “Canada – Admissions of Permanent Residents under Express Entry by Province/Territory of Intended Destination and Country of Citizenship”
      on this webpage: https://open.canada.ca/data/en/dataset/52e4b14b-597a-4ecf-a184-23a6e69b0d57

      Out of a 100,000 express PR’s in the last 5 years, 50,000 were taken by Indians. Nigeria and Pakistan are a distant second and third respectively.

      Note that this is express entry, so these are immigrants with higher education. Has the upper caste Hindu caravan has moved on from Aryavarta ?

      1. Totally. North America is now the new Arya-varta.

        I hope there are enough Indians soon in parts to Jersey City to rename some localities as ‘Brahmavarta’. We could then write new Vedas in praise of the “Hudson-Ganga” river and computers instead of horses etc.

        1. Janmejaya wrote:

          “Totally. North America is now the new Arya-varta.”

          OIT!

          Pressing on: Brand new paper on horses in the steppes:

          https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-57735-y

          “On the basis of the Botai evidence for horse management, Anthony argued that horseback riding had emerged by ca 3000 BCE or before”

          “However, advances in biomolecular archaeology have overturned crucial elements of the story of horse domestication at Botai and in so doing have undercut the hypothesis of broad-scale, horse-based population movements during the early Bronze Age.”

          “Supporting the multi-stage chronology for equine transport proposed by earlier influential scholars but contra to Anthony and others, we propose that this revolutionary transition is best explained by a second millennium BCE innovation of mounted horseback riding from earlier use in traction.”

          Horses were not ridden till 1200 BCE (Fig 9). Based on the working assumption that bad news for David Anthony means good news for the OIT, this date supports Igor Tonoyan Belayev’s fifth “equestrian explanse” phase in which horses helped in the rapid expansion of the IE dialects.

          “It is only the last phase that can be dated with a certain degree of precision ie. c 1900 and c 1200 BC.” Sections 5 and 6 below:

          https://www.academia.edu/36998766/Five_waves_of_Indo-European_expansion_a_preliminary_model_2018_

          Further:
          from the horse paper:

          “Nonetheless, our data indicate that at the end of the second millennium BCE, some areas witnessed saw dietary exploitation of domestic horses to a previously unforeseen extent, and that all study regions saw a general trend towards higher frequencies of horse bones in zooarchaeological assemblages.”

          This could also support ritualistic use of horses during the Ashvamedha Yagna described in the LATER Rig Vedic books and the subsequent Vedas.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashvamedha

          “After the return of the horse, more ceremonies were performed for a month before the main sacrifice. The king was ritually purified, and the horse was yoked to a gilded chariot, together with three other horses, and Rigveda (RV) 1.6.1,2 (YajurVeda (YV) VSM 23.5,6) was recited. “

  18. Virkram wrote:

    “Note that this is express entry, so these are immigrants with higher education.”

    “Pakistan are a distant second ”

    ” Has the upper caste (no evidence offered) Hindu caravan has moved on from Aryavarta ?”

    Asked and answered.

    Anyways. The geneticists are claiming that this paper supports OIT based on cattle genetics. The green stuff in Figure 1 comes from South Asian cattle:

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-57880-4

    1. Regardless of where the genetic debate goes, India has been home to Brahmins for more than two millinea. The Hindu upper caste exodus from the Indian core is an interesting event. It is ironic that this exodus did not happen when core India was under foreign rule (Muslim or British), but when it has come under the rule of peasant and farming caste Hindus.

      1. There will be regional exceptions, but brahmins and mercantile castes did quite well for themselves under islamicate and british rule. The truly ironic thing is that despite this they have been at the forefront of the anti-muslim and western-skeptic viewpoints, with one foot in the anglo world. Muslim indians, otoh migrate to gulf countries where assimilation is not possible and end up remitting their wealth back to the homeland.

        1. Brahmins did a lot better under the British than ever under Islamicate rule. This is true of everywhere in India (including Kashmir).

          Mercantile classes enjoyed some freedom of business, but their rate of returns were at the sufferance of the monarch, whose power was far more absolutist (unlike those of his Western, esp. British contemporaries). Furthermore the business community being largely composed of infidels meant the haircut on defaulted loans was often 100%. This incentivised the lenders to be even more brutal in charging rates to those with less power. Resulting in a highly extractive economic structure built on rent-seeking than wealth creation.

          No wonder to both these groups, the notions of fair play and the rule of law of the Victorians must have come as a breath of fresh air, even when accounting for the crony-capitalism of Company Sarkar. After all crony-capitalists though corrupt are still net value creators compared to a pure rent-seeking elite.

  19. An exodus is inevitable in a country as riven with social divisions and low trust as India is. The exodus of the Brahmins and other parasitic upper castes is no surprise since these folks have only leeched off the society for centuries and bled it dry, and now looking for an exit out. Instead of shouldering their outsize responsibility in building a new India, they’re bursting out the door given half a chance.

    For all it’s faults, the Nehruvian state aimed in thoery to create a new state composed of equal individuals regardless of their social background,
    with the historically privileged castes relinquishing an ever so little share of their overlarge piece of the pie in the form of reservations and convincing the religious minorities that they’re equal members of this modern civic nation. But the present government is bending over backwards in trying to destroy whatever little social cohesion may have painstakingly accrued over the past few decades. I only see the exodus worsening in the coming years.

  20. “. But the present government is bending over backwards in trying to destroy whatever little social cohesion may have painstakingly accrued over the past few decades.”

    LOL, that’s the thing. The Nehruvian UC Hindu elite thought everything is only about them . If India is a nation, its because of them. If India is an idea,its “their” idea. And now since they have lost , “India” has lost.

    India/Indians are not as strong as they claim to be. But they are also not as weak as their naysayers would like to believe.

  21. https://thewire.in/communalism/jamia-shooting-right-wing-facebook

    On the anniversary of the day when Gandhi ji was assassinated by a Hindu terrorist, another Hindu terrorist (apparently a minor) has shot and injured a student of Jamia Millia Islamia. Supporters of the Hindu Right need to introspect about why their leaders have incited this kind of violence in India. Such acts are directly linked to BJP ministers calling for anti CAA protestors to be shot.

  22. \Supporters of the Hindu Right need to introspect about why their leaders have incited\

    There is no need to introspect. Incitement by anyone to commit crimes has to be put down legally. And political parties should have enough will to weed out such elements from their midst , whether inciters get legally prosecuted or not.

    1. Well then you guys should be calling for action to be taken against the BJP minister who explicitly called for anti-CAA protestors to be shot. If a Muslim man had shot a Hindu boy in broad daylight in Delhi, you all would be up in arms. But when it’s the other way around the reaction is so muted. Telling.

      1. But Not All ™ BJP ministers are inciting people to murder anti-CAA protesters. It is disgusting and bigoted to blame all BJP ministers for the actions of a small minority.

        1. No one is blaming all BJP ministers. But we have yet to see any action taken against the ones who are explicitly calling for murder. Rhetoric has consequences. Sharjeel Imam says some reprehensible things and gets put in jail. BJP ministers explicitly incite violence and its business as usual.

          The shooter was a young and brainwashed supporter of the Hindu Right. It is quite plausible that he only sought to implement what his leaders have been calling for.

        2. The party is not strongly condemning the people making the remarks like Anurag thakur. It’s fair to hold the bjp leadership accountable when we know that in India party discipline is strongly enforced. The others standing by quietly are spineless. It’s bizarre to find the criticism of it bigoted and disgusting.

          1. Not only that. People in the BJP have referred to Godse as a “deshbhakt”. This shooter probably saw himself as another Godse. It’s not a coincidence that he chose to act on the anniversary of Gandhiji’s martyrdom.

            Supporters of the Hindu Right need to hold their leaders accountable for their rhetoric. Unless of course it suits them to incite a civil war in India.

  23. https://www.dawn.com/news/1531476/trade-interests-trump-human-rights-eu-parliament-defers-vote-on-anti-caa-resolution

    India vs Pakistan (origin) folks fight even in EU’s parliament. 😛

    Its interesting to contrast EU’s Indian origin parliamentarians vs Indian-american Parliamentarians stand on NRC-CAA. Till very recently it was thought that the latter are closer to India, considering that lot of them moved in early 90s or so, while the European Indians moved far earlier.

    But the recent events seem to suggest otherwise. Even though Modi has gone on a limb to court Indian Americans, while mostly cold shouldering the European Indians, seems like it would have been better had he done the opposite.

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