Why do Pakistanis not want to be descended from Hindus?

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First, I want to enter into the record that among Punjabis and Sindhis there is almost no West Asian ancestry in Pakistanis.* I qualify this with “almost” because there is some, particularly in Sindhis. You can tell because of African ancestry, which is distinctive in even small fractions, and which is found in some of the HGDP Sindhis. I haven’t checked the 1000 Genome samples from Lahore (which clearly includes Punjabis but also other ethnicities), but they seem “more Indian” than the HGDP Sindhis.

Most people with half a brain can see the above fact in the data. That being said there is some ideological battle between Pakistanis and Indians about the Hindu origins of Pakistanis. Or, should we say “Hindu”?

On both sides of my family, I have “caste Hindu” forebears within the last few centuries. My paternal grandmother’s father was born a Hindu. So I have no compunction in admitting that my ancestors were Hindu, and my genetics indicate a rather generic Bangladeshi ancestry except for the higher fraction of East Asian (my family is from what was Tippera). It helps I’m not Muslim or Muslim-identified.

From Hindu Nationalists there something of schizophrenia on the topic. On the one hand, they loudly proclaim the Hindu origins of South Asian Muslims (correct). Often, there is also an assertion that these are low caste converts (perhaps correct, but specious to the argument). But then, they flip to the assertion that South Asian Muslims are invaders, oppressors, etc.

It’s not totally coherent. Perhaps more coherent is the position of some Pakistanis: “we were never Hindus.” The argument is straightforward, and about ten years ago I was quite open to it. To be frank, I probably leaned toward the proposition that Hinduism as an identity makes no sense without a reaction to Islam and later the British-Christian experience. Though probably not as extreme as “real Hinduism didn’t exist in the 19th century”, I wouldn’t have laughed that assertion out of the house.

There are several reasons I reject or have evolved from my older views.

First, reading Al-Biruni was quite eye-opening. It is clear by 1000 A.D. a coherent sense of self-identity existed among the people of the Indian subcontinent, whom he called “Hindus.” Semantically the idea that Indians who retained native religious beliefs and practices were “Hindu” may have come later, but I am not one who confuses substance with semantics. That is, something can exist even if it does not have a name (or a different name from what you call something).

Second, my reading of the origins of Buddhism convinced me that much of the Eurasian oikumene underwent civilization confessionalization between 0 and 1000 A.D., and India was not excluded from this. Some Indians and non-Indians refer to Hinduism and Indian civilization as “pagan.” I think this is defensible, but not informative and often misleads. Hinduism is not analogous to Greco-Roman paganism because Hinduism underwent a civilizational process of development, integration, and articulation, that Greco-Roman paganism never did, due to the latter’s fading in the face of Christianity.

Third, the resistance of much of the subcontinent to Islamicization is strongly indicative that there was a native religious matrix which exhibited and manifested integrity and coherency. The historiography of this is quite dark to me, as an English speaker without deep scholarly interest, but like “dark matter” the empirical outcome of a subcontinent which is majority non-Muslim after centuries of Islamic hegemony allows us to infer unobserved dynamics and parameters.

Finally, the evidence from the genetic data seems clear that the endogamy associated with contemporary jati seems to have crystallized into a form we’d recognize today about 1,500 years ago. Since I am not a believer in the Hindu religion I am not invested in the argument whether caste and jati is constitutive to Hinduism or not. But, as an empirical matter, there is a close association between Hindu religious identity and caste. Even in societies, such as Bali and amongst the Chams, which did not have jati in an Indian sense, ideas of caste had some resonance if they are Hindu. The emergence in the genetic data of caste to this period is indicative to me of an ideological revolution or systematization.

This brings us to the Hindu ancestors of modern South Asian Muslims. In some cases, one cannot deny the Hinduism of the ancestors of some Muslims. Muhammad Iqbal and Muhammad Jinnah descend from twice-born caste Hindus. This is known and admitted. There is no doubt that their ancestors converted from what is considered Hinduism to what is considered Islam.

But what about cases such as the Mappila Muslims of Kerala or Bengali Muslims? Genetically there is no strong signal of external admixture in these people. What religion were they? One model, which is not unreasonable, is that these people were not Hindu because they were animists and tribal religionists, due to the narrow purview of caste Hinduism, which was limited to the three twice-born varna. The Mappila are genetically clearly descended from “sudra” and “untouchable” peasant castes, and there is some record of recent conversion from groups like Ezhava.

I am skeptical of the idea today that we should call these people non-Hindu due to their exclusion and marginality from elite Hinduism, as promoted and exposited by the Brahmins. First, the Hinduism of the Brahmins clearly has had a dynamic interaction with the religious beliefs of the masses of India. Limiting Hinduism to the beliefs and rituals of the Brahmins is a position some Brahmins might defend, but it seems to be exceedingly pedantic and parochial. This is like limiting Christianity to the beliefs and practices of Christian monastic communities during the medieval period. There is a certain logic, but that logic leads us down the road to absurdity.

Second, in places like Southeast Asia, where tribal people were outside of the pale of Theravada Buddhist or Islamic civilization, they readily converted to Christianity. This is also a dynamic that exists in India, where northeastern peoples who were never integrated into the penumbra of “Indic” civilization became Christian (the exception here are groups like Chakma, who remained Theravada Buddhist, despite abandoning their native language for a dialect of Bengali). The fact that non-savarana Indians did not convert to Islam despite centuries of domination by Muslims is indicative of two things. One, their native religious traditions were quite robust. Two, the influence of pan-Indian religious movements such as bhakti was clearly important in generating supra-jati identifications.

Obviously, there aren’t too many ethnographies of illiterate peasants in the Indian subcontinent from the 17th century where they explain their thinking. Rather, one has to infer based on worldwide patterns of religious change as well as what we see in the Indian subcontinent. Resistance to conversion to “world religions” only happens when one has some identification with a world religion or strong civilizational identity (e.g., many Han Chinese have weak religious identification, but strong civilizational identity). Indians could very well be the exception to this rule, but I doubt that because most human psychologies are quite similar.

That being said, a large proportion of Indians did convert to Islam. Why? How? The hypothesis that this was due to forced conversion at the point of a sort is not plausible. This is, frankly, the view of the ignorant and stupid. This did occur across Islamic history, but this was the exception, not the rule. Additionally, there is very little evidence of admixture of West Asian ancestry in Indian Muslims overall. That is indicative of a high level of communal integrity in the conversion process. That is, whole jatis converted at once. There was obviously some element of soft coercion in many cases. In other cases, such as among low castes, there was clearly some opportunism. Jinnah’s Hindu grandfather engaged in business associated with fishing, and so found it easier for his sons to become a Muslim, due to the ostracism that ritual pollution brought to his family.

This brings us to Bengal and what is today Pakistan. These were the major Muslim majority regions of the Indian subcontinent that were clear in the 1871 census. Looking at the map the Muslim character of western Punjab and Sindh are totally comprehensible. But what is going on in Bengal?

Since Bengal is not the point of this post, I will address it first. One of the strange patterns in the early censuses is that Bengal was more Muslim the further east you got. Numerically the most Muslim district was Noakhali in the southeast. Traditionally, the Muslims of Noakhali also have a reputation of being particularly devout (the joke is that in Noakhali even Hindus greet you with a salam).

The argument in Richard Eaton’s The Rise of Islam and the Bengal Frontier is that eastern Bengal was settled and opened up to a great extent under Islamic rule. It was a dynamic and fluid cultural and social landscape, which provided an opening to an Islamic identity. This provides a cogent explanation for why Noakhali, and the east in general, are particularly Muslim: they are farthest away from the stable conventionally Hindu civilization.

Eaton’s work dovetails well with cultural evolution work in theory and empirics which argue that “marchlands” tend to exhibit more social dynamism and are more open to change. To give an empirical example, the conversion of the Roman aristocracy to Christianity was fastest amongst those elites from the frontier, as opposed to the Italian core.

Finally, there is evidence from genetics in regards to Bengal. Eastern Bengalis as found in the 1000 Genomes Project are defined by two distinctive things in comparison to other South Asians

1) 10-15% admixture of East Asian (Tibeto-Burman-like) ancestry around 1,500 years ago in a large single pulse. This admixture seems to be higher in people from the east than those further west (e.g., I am on the edge of the 1000 Genomes cluster because I have more East Asian than usual, and my family is from the furthest east of Bengal).

2) The lack of caste-like structure at all with a few exceptions (these exceptions cluster with Dalits and lack East Asian admixture, and were collected at the same time).

Eaton’s theory is that the massive demographic expansion in eastern Bengal happened during the Muslim period, with migration from the west under the supervision of Islamic elites. The problem from a genetic perspective is that the admixture around 1,500 years ago is pretty clear and hard to dispute (I’ve replicated the finding personally with the 1000 Genomes data), but West Bengalis have far less of it. If the demographic source was from West Bengal, it makes no sense why West Bengalis are so much less admixed vis-a-vis East Bengalis. A reasonable hypothesis would be that peasants migrated from the west mixed with local people. But the best fit of the model is that there was a single mixture between Indo-Aryan people and Tibeto-Burman people 1,500 years ago, not more recently. It clearly predates the Islamic period.

Though my confidence is modest, the evidence here implies in situ demographic expansion. That is, the lightly settled eastern region of the delta was opened up and populated by indigenous peasants, who were themselves descended from early Indo-Aryan groups who had admixed with intrusive Tibeto-Burmans. Interestingly, the cline of East Asian admixture is roughly congruent withe the cline of Islamicization.

There is a famous map of Poland and its voting patterns which shows that a century after the end of the rule of Poland by Russia and Germany modern Poles still vote geographically based on whether they were ruled by Germans or Russians. There is no great genetic difference here. Rather, it is all cultural. I believe that the admixture of Tibeto-Burmans may have had a long term impact on the Bengali peasantry in the east in terms of the solidity and integrity of “Hindu” identity in the region. Though not a cause, it may be an indicator of how unstable and fluid the frontier Indo-Aryan peasant society was. Possibly related to this is also the fact that Buddhism was strong in Bengal relatively late.

Assam shows that “Hinduization” can occur, even for invasive Tibeto-Burmans (the Ahom were themselves Tai, but most of the East Asian phenotype people in the region are not Tai). But this did not occur in Bengal because it was conquered by Muslims in the 13th century. The lack of caste-like structure in the genetics of East Bengal, with the exception of Brahmins (one of the samples in the 1000 Genomes Bangladesh sample seems to be half Bengali Brahmin), but its existence in West Bengal (reported by an Asian genome project consortium which hasn’t released its data), is notable and is strongly indicative of the weakness of “Hindu” cultural features.

Now, let’s move to Pakistan. The 1000 Genomes Pakistanis from Lahore are labeled Punjabi, but I assume some of them are Mohajir. Nevertheless, looking at a PCA the contrast between the Pakistani Lahore sample and the Dhaka Bangladesh sample was immediately quite striking when  I started analyzing the data in 2014. Like an Indian (Hindu) population the Pakistanis explored much of the “India-cline”. A few even overlapped with Tamil samples from Sri Lanka. In contrast, the Bangladesh samples were tightly clustered, with a relatively even admixture of East Asian ancestry shifting them out of the India-cline.

I decided to investigate further and found a strange result: the Bangladesh samples, unlike the Indian samples and Pakistan samples, exhibited a total lack of the runs of homozygosity that indicate a level of “inbreeding” among South Asian groups. This aligns with anthropology. Bangladeshi Muslims do not engage in cousin-marriage much, unlike Pakistani Muslims, and jati-caste dynamics don’t seem to exist in Bangladesh. Like Chinese or European populations, Bangladeshis seem “panmictic” on the world-wide scale. This surprised me.

Until recently I chalked up the Pakistani runs of homozygosity to parallel-cousin marriage. Runs of homozygosity in Muslim populations tend to be longer than among North Indian Hindus, who are jati endogamous, but gotra exogamous. The new paper, Fine-scale population structure and demographic history of British Pakistanis, have changed my views somewhat. Let me quote from the discussion:

We have carried out the first large-scale investigation of population structure and demographic history of Pakistanis. We found genetic structure in the cohort reflecting the influences of the biraderi social stratification system, with some subgroups forming identifiable and homogeneous clusters (Figures 1 and 2). Our analyses suggest that these subgroups come from a common ancestral population but diverged from one another within the last 70 generations (1,500-2,000 years) (Figure 3a). This is consistent with an earlier finding that the transition from intermarriage to strict endogamy on the Indian subcontinent started from about 70 generations ago, concurrent with or immediately after the drafting of the ancient Law Code of Manu that described a ranked social stratification system.

I’m a geneticist, not a historian, obviously, so the reference to the “Laws of Manu” should not be taken literally. Rather, they should be taken seriously. Contrary to what some “Trads” assert, the endogamy between Indian “communities” which is taken as a given today is not primal, or even Bronze Age, but a feature of the last 2,000 years. It is not recent though and predates Islam, let along the British. There are two dynamics to understanding the emergence of jati and the India-cline:

1) First, there was a mixture of very different groups between six and two thousand years

2) Then, starting two thousand year ago high levels of endogamy began to appear across many groups

These are broad and general stylized facts. It seems likely that between 1000 BC and year 0 there remained pockets of “pure” “AASI.” These were finally mixed in with various tribal populations who had substantial, albeit a minority, “IVC-related”, ancestry. In the Gangetic plain, a population that merged IVC-related ancestry with AASI ancestry had a 10-20% overlay of “steppe” ancestry between after 1500 BC (30% in Brahmins, 15% in peasants, 5% or less in Dalits).

Going back to the issue of Pakistan, unlike Bangladesh, it looks like these Punjabi-related groups began to diverge at the same time as other North Indian groups. The implication is strong that endogamy began all across the North around the same time (the pattern is found in the South as well). Why? I think this relates to the development of a mature Hindu cultural-religious matrix as a reaction and response to Buddhism and other sramana movements. Though I am not convinced entirely, I think it is entirely reasonable to think that the development of jati communalism was instrumental in the extinction of Buddhism and the decline of Jainism, and, allowed for flexible robustness in the face of Islam. There are two regions of South Asia where these caste-like dynamics are attenuated: Bangladesh, and Sri Lanka (the Tamils from the samples in the 1000 Genomes are Sri Lanka; there are clearly a few Brahmins, but on the whole, there is less stratification than the Telugu who are from India).

But Pakistan is a different case. The existence of a strong caste-like structure is indicative of a fully elaborated Hindu society as we understand it. This also makes sense in light of news stories that indicate caste-dynamics of pollution and prejudice in Pakistan, but not Bangladesh. There are caste-like dynamics in Middle Eastern Islamic societies, but they are all based on religion (e.g., Yemeni Jews and other minorities were ghettoized based on their religious identity). In Pakistan caste comes up with Christians who are converted from the lower castes. But I have read instances where it occurs amongst Muslims. I have not heard of anything similar outside of the case of Hindus in Bangladesh (e.g., my mother had a Brahmin friend growing up who told her not to engage or contact some low caste Hindus in the area where they lived when they were teens).

This is not rock-solid. Pakistani readers and commenters like to point out that there are records that define Punjab as mleccha territory. I’m not going to dispute this. Though it’s curious to me that these would be the only mleccha who exhibit evidence of caste in their genetics at the same time that it emerged among Hindus in core North India.

But motivated reasoning is strong. On my other blog ArainGang stated:

The Indian admixture dates from Moorjani are all over the place, ranging from 65-145 generations ago. UP Upper Caste dates are 65-85 generations ago. Per this study, most Punjabis diverged from each other 30-60 generations ago. So despite being conquered by the Aryans several centuries before UP, Punjabi genetic structure is emerging several centuries after their eastern neighbors. This goes against the idea of a uniform caste-crystallization reflecting Hinducization, affecting both Punjab and North India.

I’m a simple man. I don’t have a mastery of Hindu textual sources that these Pakistanis have. But I know the genetics, and he’s clearly garbling two different inferences, confusing the emergence of the India-cline (earlier) with the reduction in gene flow due to endogamy (later). ArainGang is a pretty savvy interpreter of the literature, despite his clear bias and preferences which are similar to the most sophisticated Hindu nationalists in magnitude if not direction, so I reread Moorjani et al. to confirm what I immediately knew from the results that he’s quoting. It is simply impossible to not see that the statistics he’s quoting do not say what he’s asserting they say. He clearly wanted this inference and so confused himself. Most people will not have his familiarity with the literature, so I’m assuming now Pakistanis will feel vindicated.

At this point, I’m going to have to update my views as to how seriously to take this individual since my previous respect meant that I actually reread a paper to make sure he was as wrong as I understood him to be. I invested time that I’m not inclined to ever invest again to give someone the benefit of the doubt.

I don’t know someone’s heart, nor do I care, but my personal assumption is that some Pakistanis want really strongly to differentiate themselves from Indians. This means they want strong evidence of cultural and genetic rupture.

As a parenthetical side-point, I don’t see Pathans doing this at length, though it is clear that they are quite distinct in a way Punjabis are not. To be frank, this tells us something deep, but I’ll leave it to the reader to mull over.

I don’t have a mastery of the primary literary sources like these Pakistanis, so I will leave that off. The more I delve into genetics the more it is clear to me that they have no case, and I can see exactly how they are engaging in either self-deception or plain deception. My confidence in the genetic origins of Pakistanis is weaker than my confidence in the Indo-Aryan migration theory. I would like more papers and also evidence from Sindh. My current best guess could be wrong. But as time progresses I assume I will become more and more confident, just as I have become so with the Indo-Aryan migration theory.

Obviously I am not Muslim, but I come from a Muslim family, and I do not understand why there is such an aversion to being descended from Hindus from Pakistanis in particular. In my family, we were told that being a convert to Islam is actually meritorious, rather than being born into Islam. Ironically, the fixation on descent and bloodlines is perhaps more evidence of just how Indian Pakistanis are!

As I said earlier I was, and to some extent still am, open to the idea that the tribes of modern Pakistan were not Hinduized, so their transition to Islam came from Buddhism or tribal religion. But it has to be admitted that from an orthodox Muslim perspective there is no daylight between Indian Buddhism, tribal paganism, and Hinduism. So the issue here is not about religion, but about cultural affinity (or preferred lack thereof) with North Indian Hinduism, which some people want to push so forward in time.

Readers of this weblog have various preferences and ideologies. That’s normal. Hindu nationalists often present a caricature of Greater India 2,000 years ago that is ahistorical, anachronistic, and unbelievable. It is in fact less plausible than some of the ideas Pakistanis are presenting. Pakistan is not as important, so I have not paid as much attention to it, but it does seem that the “Two-Nation-Theory” (which to be frank I broadly agree with as a contemporary historical matter) has given birth to a very strange impulse to deny the fundamental likely Indianness and Hinduness of people across the past in Pakistan (which by the way was observed and recorded by West Asian Muslims almost from the beginning when those people began to interact with people in the Indus valley).

* Will exclude Pathans from this treatment since they are liminal South Asians.

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174 Replies to “Why do Pakistanis not want to be descended from Hindus?”

  1. this is one artcile which was long overdue. i think indians, and PIOs (persons of indian origin) should really take a backseat for once, and let paksitanis and PPOs themselves answer this existential question, to wit – why do pakistanis not want to be descended from hindus?

    this is a question that has vexed the subcontinent for over a century now. two things are very certain. the undeniable hindu origins of pakistanis (at least those living east of indus), and their pathological need to deny these origins.

    why?

  2. Given that Pakistan itself was a Muhajir project and not a Punjabi-Sindhi one, all the Pakistani kvetching is beside the point.

  3. also, didn’t emphasize in the post: from a muslim s asian perspective pagans and buddhists would be no different than hindus. so why do pakistanis object to the term hindu? they object to association with hinduism as a higher religion. from a muslim angle this is irrelevant. so this is due to nationalism, not islam.

    1. fear of the AASI blood 😉

      But really so much of it comes down to remarks that disparage what they consider to be the indian phenotype and also inherent indian personality traits.

    2. Can you share some references for your observation “Hindu nationalists often present a caricature of Greater India 2,000 years ago that is ahistorical, anachronistic, and unbelievable” ?

  4. “I’m a simple man. I don’t have a mastery of Hindu textual sources that these Pakistanis have. ”

    LOL

    My two cents is this whole Hindu nat view of “the Hindu origins of South Asian Muslims” is evolving. Give it a decade or so, and it will mirror the Pak TNT. They will move from this current position to “muslims beings external to Subcontinent” similar to Tamil-Sinhalese in Sri Lanka. That would make it more coherent, irrespective of being factually true or not.

    A lesser tight knit Asabiya rather than a more expansive looser Asabiya.

  5. The aristocracy too converted and so did the laeties. From rights to charity, the motivation ranged between peace, safety and security and that’s a universal characteristic. Forced conversions were purely military and strategic – to ensure exclusion from the Hindu fold and dependency on their newly acquired status.

  6. Pakistanis don’t want to associate themselves with Indians for the same reason that North Indians look down on South Indians and Upper caste look down on Lower caste.

    They are more Caucasian and don’t want to have anything to do with Indians. If India turned Muslim today I think they’ll switch to Hindu or something else.

    1. It is definitely turning into this. Pak is becoming more of a Muslim Punjabi ethnonationalist state with heavy Pashtun assimilation than just a purely Muslim homeland for S Asians. I mean there were always undercurrents of that. they were accelerated post 1971. And they are accelerating even faster now as the world becomes more atheistic. I think race is the biggest element. Pakistanis hate the on average darker skinned more tropical featured Indians. I think racial hatred underpins this. The thing is that genetically Pakistanis are what,barring mohajirs,pashtuns,and balochis,like 15% more caucasian on average, maybe 20% if one wants to be liberal. By caucasian I mean descended from those groups who would have likely been anthroprometrically identified as such when the pseudoscience was at play. The whole racism is quite weird. But all of S Asia does it. Just the religious element provided the original catalyst for the breaking point and ideologues framed it temporarily as the mainstay causal link.

  7. I’d like to give my two cents on the matter from the perspective of Bihari Syed’s.

    I am the son of two Muhajir parents from Pakistan. Both are of Bihari descent. We are part of the Ashraf caste and specifically the Syed sub-caste. The reason for disliking the notion of Hindu ancestors is simply because in Islam paganism is looked down on. In fact it is one of the worst things one can do, to deny the One God. My family does not deny the Hindu ancestry, albeit they do not talk about it either. But logically everyone knows it is there. Our Bihari Muslim culture mirrors the Hindu Bihari culture in some marriage rituals, caste thinking and even superstitions/beliefs. As well, being a Syed is similar to being a Brahmin. Bloodlines are a big deal in my family. Being a Syed and the descendant of Prophet Muhammed is a matter of pride. Again similar to any high caste in South Asia. Hence why my suspicion of my family being descendants of Brahmins is probably correct given my 23 and me and GEDmatch results.

    When I shared this with some relatives many of them didn’t care much. To them anything Hindu is not seen as something to take pride in. A few did believe it given how marrying within the sub-caste was a big deal for centuries.

    What is important to Syed’s is having MENA ancestors. For example being a descendant of Prophet Muhammed, Imam Hussein, Ali al-Ridha or even Abdul Qadir Gilani. The Hindu ancestry seems to take a backseat. It’s because since we are Muslims only Muslim related history seems to matter. I find this ridiculous as we should also be taking pride in Ashoka the Great as well as other Hindu people.

    Anyways having Hindu ancestors shouldn’t be something that should be denied by Pakistanis but it is due to religion and nationalism.

    1. Bloodlines are a big deal in my family.

      in my experience, this attitude is common among the moderately or traditionally religious. not ‘fundamentalists’ and the like.

      pride is bloodlines seems in some ways antithetical to Islam. but people refashion religion in their own image, and the image of indian muslims is a hindu one 🙂 look the faces. that’s the face of ashoka looking back…

  8. I find this entire concept of accepting or denying ancestors’ religion/culture quite absurd.

    It’s not a matter to accept or deny, it’s a matter of FACT, as much as one’s gender is. There is no option to accept or deny.

    Though there is an issue with “Hindu” ancestry though. What exactly is Hindu? Would a Pakistani Muslim of “Khatri” ancestry see his ancestor as having same ‘Hindu’ identity as a modern Tamil Shudra? I have seen many Pakistanis take pride in their biradari’s history, but deny any association with other Indian castes. I think this feeling pre-dates Islam.

    1. What exactly is Hindu? Would a Pakistani Muslim of “Khatri” ancestry see his ancestor as having same ‘Hindu’ identity as a modern Tamil Shudra?

      Indian Hindus do have this concept of a scared geography that spans India.

      My family would do Yatras / pilgrimages to temples all over India. I think there are some pilgrimage sites in Pakistan.

      And the Pakistan government used to issue visas to visit when the relations were better. (Not sure if they still do)

      I think even the Sikhs (whose gurus were all Punjabi Khatris) And Indian followers are basically almost all Punjabi have sacred sites as far afield as Patna in Bihar and Nagpur in Maharashtra.

  9. What exactly is Hindu? Would a Pakistani Muslim of “Khatri” ancestry see his ancestor as having same ‘Hindu’ identity as a modern Tamil Shudra?

    the roots of indic civilization seem pretty deep, and though south India speaks dravidian languages, genetics and philology indicate aryans had an influence there. there are aryan loanwords in the earliest sangam poetry. the cultural affinity is clear. it was clear to ancient indians, and their neighbors.

    of course the racism against darker people is there, and probably underpins some of the issues i’m alluding to here. but not sure we should reduce it to just racism

  10. It has been a few years since we heard about endogamy setting in 1500-2500 years ago, or the examples of Telugu Vysyas etc. Why isn’t that information being expanded, refined and updated (or is it being?) – have people just lost interest in replicating these findings, or of whether this holds through for the myriad jAti-s they hadn’t yet investigated, or of how the times of endogamy setting in varies across India?

      1. Thank you very much for the link Razib.

        I trust they have their arguments sorted out, but knowing nothing about population genetics, the logic does baffle me. If I understand right, they approximate ANI with Kalash and, and by lookinng at the “ancestral block lengths” figure when “entire ANI blocks” stopped contributing to a particular jAti (and similarly with ASI and AAA and ATB). But can’t this also happen simply when pure ANI stops existing due to admixture?

        That said, from this I can believe that two jAti-s for which the lengths are different probably stopped intermarrying at a time suggested by the lengths. But I don’t see how this difference is observed for two jAti-s that have similar block lengths, say Gujarati Brahmins and West Bengal Brahmins (unless you appeal to Tibeto-Burman in Bengalis or so…)

        1. That said, from this I can believe that two jAti-s for which the lengths are different probably stopped intermarrying at a time suggested by the lengths. But I don’t see how this difference is observed for two jAti-s that have similar block lengths, say Gujarati Brahmins and West Bengal Brahmins (unless you appeal to Tibeto-Burman in Bengalis or so…)

          another way you do it is look at genetic distance btwn two groups. genetic distance is a function of the time btwn when two groups stopped sharing genes. if two “groups” still exchange genes beyond a certain threshold they will not have any genetic distance, since genetic distance is a function of drift, and drift can get swamped by gene flow

      2. Also is the comment on needing ancient DNA independent of the paper (unless you mean to get better estimates of original blocks)? Thanks again.

        1. yes. ancient dna serves as a check on model assumptions. we’d have much better parameter estimates in the model and would also constrain the model space.

      3. “But I don’t see how this difference is observed for two jAti-s that have similar block lengths, say Gujarati Brahmins and West Bengal Brahmins” — @froginthewell, good point.
        @razib, I also had this doubt when i first came across this paper, now being an amateur in the population genetics ,what i understood from the paper was that it was calculating time of last admixture of an ASI/AAA rich source to an ANI rich source and vice-versa (Khatris being representative of ANI in this case) but what if high ANI groups living not far from each other , lets say jats and rors , kept admixing with each other till much later ? This method wouldn’t be able to detect such admixture , would it ? Correct me if i am wrong but isn’t Basu et al’s method detecting time of last admixture between “races”(sorry for lack of a better term) ?

    1. Cousin marriages are quite common in Bangladesh from what I see on internet by googling. They cluster with each other because vast majority of bangladeshi are converts from shudra class or 1 type of people. West bengal have more genetic diversity. It was basis of their freedom strugle against hindu overlords who were brahmins.

      Comparision with Lahore G1000 samples is pointless as punjab always had dalit like population living beside other baradaris as servants or slaves. Which is basis of discrimination against indigenous tribal phenotype.

      British Pakistani samples also cluster closely with each other despite belonging to dozens of baradaris,. Vast majority of punjabis cluster closely as well but with exception of dalit like population.

      Imagine if good chunk of Bangladeshi were brahmin converts, they will be more closer to Bihari brahmin then average Bangladeshis. Or lets say if partition didn’t happen then east Bengal will be more diverse genetically because hindu brahmins would have stayed there. Certain type of population that converted is the answer here for author question.

      1. Cousin marriages are quite common in Bangladesh from what I see on internet by googling.

        i actually have 1000 genomes samples you fucking dumbass. they can’t be quite common if these samples don’t have obv ROH (1st cousin offspring always have huge ROH).

      2. “Imagine if good chunk of Bangladeshi were brahmin converts”

        A substantial number of brahmins certainly embraced Islam and assimilated into Bangladeshis. The steppe %age in Bangladeshis is not that low compared to average Indians(excluding NW and Brahmins).

    2. TBF no one in what is now Pakistan was anything but some kind of hindu. Exception are baloch and pathans, though people who makeup baloch and pathans are genetically hindu or lets say people who lived in this region for thousands of years before adopting Iranic language. As proven by dravidian Brahui being Baloch like and pathans being KP indo-aryan dard like genetically. My guess is few Iranic invaders were responsible for change of language in largelly indo-aryan western Pakistan till 1000AD.

      Pakistan as a whole was “hindu”. Proven by the fact that temples are found in every corner of Pakistan. You will not find temples in western Iran. For Iranians south Asia start from their east Iran/Balochistan. If you watch Iranian balochistan video, you will find baloch selling samosas and pakoras.

      So denying some kind of common religion of ancient Pakistanis with Indians is nothing more then self hate. I see this mostly from people who claim to be syeds/arabs in punjab or pathans who don’t even consider themselves south asians.

  11. Sooner or later, many Hindu and Pakistanis, in their quest for ancient ancestors will come to Vinca. Pakistanis maybe much later because they do not have ingrained reverence toward their ancestors. Many Indians have it, but they are still confused, although they intimately know the truth.

    Anyway, when this time comes, I will be waiting all on the bank of Danube with a glass of cold medovina (ancient alcoholic drink made from med i.e. honey) and with tunes of the most beautiful Serbian waltz:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLyfeTD0b7w

    1. Milan, we are not all Serbs. Serbs didn’t exist when South Asian populations formed, and your continued nonsense has gone beyond ridiculous mythical nationalism, and is now at the level of offensive. Stop stealing other people’s history and heritage. Our achievements are our own, not some “ancient Serbian tribes.”

      I don’t know why Razib hasn’t banned you, but this is stepping into the level of racism where pre-1960s Western European authors insisted that any achievement by non-whites was impossible, and therefore the result of an ancient white tribe. Stop.

      1. It seems you are a bit nervous? Did not like the waltz or you don’t drink medovina??

        I have never said such idiotic thing that YOU (who?) are all Serbs. I am not stealing (?) other people’s history. The truth is actually opposite, the Serbian history is stolen, and you are trying to do the same. You tell us where Serbs (and other Slavics) originated. Pls explain one thing only – the identical genes between Serbs and millions of SAsians. If you can’t do this, you should seek professional help or at least enrol some anger management course.
        I would not comment on such idiotic parallel with 1960es.

        One thing only!!!

        1. @ Milan Todorovic
          Proto Slavic lived side by side with Iranians; obviously, they picked up some Iranian ancestry including R1a. Hence, you can always claim to be Persian; it is also a glorious civilization after all. Since you believe Alexander was Slavic, conquest of Persia by him can be viewed as the revenge of the Slavic.

          1. Very well. You have very interesting sense for humour and you should contribute more here. And ‘proto-Slavic’ lived next to Iranians (=Aryans?). Razib will be trilled with your theory of picking up the genes. DO you know, by any chance, which genes they had before? And, they probably picked ‘Iranian’ language, too? What was their previous language? And, these are not only Serbs, there all other ‘Slavics’, too, e.g. Russians, Polish, Czechs, etc? And, Iranian R1a spread from Ireland to Vladivostok? It means that 150+ millions of Indians are Iranians? It means that ‘Iranians’ are actually original ‘Indo-Europeans’? And when all this ‘picking up’ happened? Can you also give us the theory about Vinca, who lived there and which language was spoken?

  12. On endogamy dating back just 1500-2000 years, I’d like to qualify that –

    The reason the genetic evidence does not suggest “strict” endogamy prior to the Common Era was not because endogamy was not an ideal

    Rather, the colonization of India was still WIP until the Gupta period.
    As tribes were settling virgin land, some amount of out-marriage was guaranteed. Once the land was settled, endogamy was observed more strictly.

    I did a thread on this once –

    https://twitter.com/shrikanth_krish/status/1288578180249317376

    1. Very interesting hypothesis. But wouldn’t your hypothesis entail earlier settling in of endogamy at the region of videgha mAthava than say the pUrva-shikhA Tambrams (aka chozhiyas?).

      1. Not necessarily

        Because there was a lot of churn in the North as well, with the influx of new tribes – Indo Greeks, Scythians – who would’ve had some kind of genetic imprint

        1. Because there was a lot of churn in the North as well, with the influx of new tribes – Indo Greeks, Scythians – who would’ve had some kind of genetic imprint

          there is no evidence of this. yes, there was some obv. these are not ghost ppl. but their imprint was trivial. the reich lab looked hard, since they have actually samples from steppe scythians. steppe scythians of the iron age are quite distinctive from indians in a specific way: they have northeast asian admixture (~10% or so). if there was substantial steppe scythian ancestry you’d see this in some amount, and you don’t (the individuals with east asian ancestry in india are ppl from the himalayan fringe, or a random pathan in the HGDP that has recent admixture).

  13. How much role favoritism by ruling system/class (e.g. Sharia) and by dominant local population (religious tribalism) played in spread of Islam in the subcontinent?

  14. Sometimes, Pakistanis who do not want to be descended from Hindu are similar to some Hindu who do not want to be descended from Aryans.

    1. that’s my experience.

      tho to be honest the pakistanis have a vaguer and more ‘defensible’ case imo since their model is always changing and it’s hard to falsify something that’s protean

    2. yes and no. One is denying minority ancestry whereas the other is denying bulk majority of ancestry tied to civilizational identity. The latter is more egregious by shear magnitude. But yes,both are dumb.

      One though is like an African American claiming to be white, identifying with his small degree of slave master identity. The other is like an African american denying having white ancestry. Yes this comparative isn’t perfect. But it gives you a rough idea.

  15. When your history teaches you that Turks and Arabs were winners, conquerors, and the purveyors of civilisation; while Hinduism is portrayed in the worst light possible, it seems inevitable that people would make such bold links based on very slight physiognomical differences.

    In my experience, claims to non-Indian ancestry is higher among more urban and elite Pakistanis than poorer ones. Rural Punjab is well aware of their links to Hindus.

  16. They say that the most virulent forms of hatred occur among brothers.

    So when you’re dealing with people who have a former history of living together (still fresh in the collective memory), and an implicit understanding of common origins (despite contemporary differentiation, on whatever grounds that this differentiation might have occurred), the desire for exaggerated distinction (and the possibility of actual physical violence or conceptual dehumanization) becomes exceedingly powerful (to the point of obvious contradiction between what’s evident and what’s conceived). And considering the demographics of undivided Punjab, I think that this might be an important dynamic.

    But looking at the bigger picture…

    Punjabis are obviously not people from Maharashtra; they’re quite distinct from even Uttar Pradeshis. They’re a group on the fringe of South Asia, facing the Iranian plateau (with which the Greater Punjab has deep and ancient cultural links), and they’ve been subject to considerable Central Asian influence from periods long before Islam and the Turks/Pashtuns.

    ^ Yet at the same time, they are certainly a people of Greater India. They are distinct… but their distinction is still a distinction within the context of the Indian subcontinent. They’re very different from (let’s say) Tamils, but you can still observe and infer an organic network of connections tying them to populations as far afield as southern India. So for some of the Muslim Punjabis who would like to look towards their west for broader civilizational affinity (due to their Islamic inheritance), and who might feel a certain level of racial prejudice towards peninsular South Asians (who are obviously related them, yet also quite distinct from them), I think it’s only natural for them to seriously exaggerate the differentiation, to the point of even denying themselves a place in the broader Indian cultural sphere.

    And considering all of the above, most Pashtuns will lack these tendencies.

    Probably because you don’t need analyses based on ancient literature to decide whether they are South Asian or not; you can just look at them.

    ^ On average, Pashtuns from the tribal areas of Pakistan and Afghanistan do not look like Indians, of even the northern West Eurasian variety; these populations have their own distinct phenotypic range.

    And just a passing acquaintance with the culture is enough to demonstrate that many Pashtuns are either liminal South Asians (Yusufzai, Khalil, Daudzai, etc) with substantive affinities towards the Near East and Central Asia, or just West Asians/Near Easterners with a heavy Central Asian imprint (the Ghilzai and Durrani), or remnants of an ancient type of Central Asian population that no longer has any living representatives left in Turan proper (the Pashtun highlanders… Waziri, Mangal, Zadran, Tanai, Khugyani, Afridi, etc).

    Couple these dynamics with the broader lack of “racial” thinking in Pashtun culture, and you have a clear explanation for why Pashtuns don’t actively deny being Indian. There just isn’t a chip on our shoulders when it comes to this topic.

    In fact, I’ve known many Pashtuns IRL who will often take an interest in the South Asian influences on their culture (because it’s obviously there), and who certainly evince a fascination with the Hindu history of what is now Afghanistan/Khyber Pakhtunkhwa.

    1. good comment. Agree. I notice less racialist stuff coming from Pashtuns than I do Pak Punjabis on the interwebz. But some of this is likely due to internet access issue differences?

      Malala in her book said Pashtuns are quite colorist. in your exp, is this true?

      1. @thewarlock

        I think Pashtuns with connections to the Punjab (and thus with a considerable level of South Asian cultural influence) might show colorist tendencies… and the Pashtuns of the Swat valley fit that bill.

        The differences are even evident in the poetry and folk music; the Durrani/Ghilzai and highlanders often speak/sing of “tor/tora” (literally “black”) male love interests in their female-centric poetry/songs, and of “ghanam-rang” (literally “wheat-colored”, the meaning being very swarthy) female love interests in their male-centric poetry/songs. But the Pashtuns living on the eastern edge, facing Punjab… their girl is always “spina laka spogmai” (“as fair and sightly as the moon”, lol).

        ^ An anecdote, one which is kinda related:

        When I was just a kid, my mother befriended this Pashtuna lady with origins in Charsadda (eastern Khyber Pakhtunkhwa). She’d come over often to hangout/eat with my mom (among Pashtuns, hanging out = eating tons of food while conversing, lol).

        One day my mom pulled out the family photo album… you know, to show her friend some pictures of my maternal uncles and aunts, my maternal grandparents, etc.

        The lady remarked in Pashto, “you people are all so fair… what’s your Jati?”. My mom had no clue what she was talking about… so her friend said “I mean your “caste”? (She used the English word caste). Mom still didn’t understand, lol.

        A certain minority of Pashtuns can be very South Asian in terms of their thinking on cultural patterns, which isn’t surprising considering that these tend to be people from the eastern edge of the Pashtun region.

        1. I wonder how old this uniform hatred is for darker skin in S Asia. Razib has said there was a point in history where there was an actual uptick in AASI ancestry in the NW. Also, until recently I read many in the South would even use oils to blacken their skin in the sun because they thought it gave a beautiful shine. The “sharp features” thing and the “fair skin” thing I assume just come from inferiority complexes and bit of stockholm syndrome, after repeated invasions from peoples that fit those bills. Regardless, every group has some population of darker, more tropical featured people. Whether it is a minority like upper caste Punjabis or a near uniform thing like tamil dalits, who cares. Alienating those phenotypes with racialist ideas is wrong from not only a universalist perspective but even a self centered one. Introducing further artificial division, aka attaching false significance to certain phenotypic variations present in non-zero frequencies, into these already divided S Asian societies serves no one’s long term interests.

        2. @Sein

          I dont find that people in NW tribes like Jats and Khatris ever discuss skin color or caste like other Indians do. Fair skin is common enough in our families, that discussing it is really unnecessary. No different from the frequency of fairer skin among Pashtuns. And as far as caste goes, we only ever marry other people from our biradri, and historically, we have not been a part of the caste system anyway, so we don’t really talk about it at home.

          Also, there is a small minority of people in every South Asian group, be it Pashtuns or NW Indians, that are darker than average, and very ethnic looking, more than all other Pashtuns/NW Indians and in my experience it is only these people that feel a little bit like a minority in social events. But even then, I have never seen them vocalize feeling marginalized due to their dark skin, it is more due to looking different because of their facial features. The vast majority of Pashtuns and NW Indians have no racial hangups or colorist tendencies however. This is because they look distinct enough for this not to be a problem whatsoever.

          1. Don’t want to instigate an argument and I don’t even think much of a discussion is warranted because I don’t see a constructive trajectory, but your experiences vastly differ from mine

          2. // Fair skin is common enough in our families, that discussing it is really unnecessary //

            Hahahaha 😂

            (Vigorously brushing the chips off ones dark brown shoulder…)

      2. I think partly it might be because Pashtuns don’t see themselves as South Asian. They’re more West Asian and Central Asian, and in that context they’re more generally on the more swarthy end of things. But Punjabis tend to see themselves as South Asian, and in that context they’re more generally on the fair end of things. So Pashtuns maybe don’t have as much color pride or it might be a bit more complex for them given the people they compare themselves to.

        Just speculating though.

        1. Pashtuns live in South Asia, NOT West Asia or Central Asia. Heck, the vast majority of them live in Pakistan, and most of the rest in Eastern/Southern Afghanistan. Doesn’t matter, because both Afghanistan and Pakistan are considered to be a part of South Asia by all the important sources.

          Also, many NW Indians once lived in these very same regions before migrating to NW India after partition. Not really important, because at the end of the day, both NW Indians and Pashtuns live in South Asia, and share similar admixture profiles and ancestors. They also look the same and really blend in with each other. But this is only limited to a small minority of highly West Eurasian tribes or Biradris who live in the NW of India, including Punjab, Haryana, West UP and Rajasthan.

          “Punjabis” as a term doesnt mean anything, most Punjabis are no different from other South Asians in their appearance/admixture profile. Its only the small minority of NW tribes like the Jats, Khatris etc that look very different not just from other Punjabis, but from the entire country of Indians in general.

          Many of these people see themselves as Indian, sure, but they dont see themselves as part of some monolithic “Brown” race that is limited to the borders of modern-day India. They simply see themselves as unique people with Indian heritage and culture that live in the landmass called India, but that have historically lived in many other places, including the NW frontier, Afghanistan, Sindh, Balochistan, etc, all places that arent part of modern India today, but a part of South Asia. Racially they are more allied with peoples living further West, including Pathans and Pashtuns etc., but nationally they see themselves as part of India.

    2. @Sein
      “^ On average, Pashtuns from the tribal areas of Pakistan and Afghanistan do not look like Indians, of even the northern West Eurasian variety; these populations have their own distinct phenotypic range.”

      While this is true with respect to “average” Indians of the North and North West, this is completely untrue with respect to NW South Asian tribes like the Rors, Jats, Kambojas, Khatris, Sindhi Higher Castes and certain other tribes of the Punjab/Haryana and Kashmir. These NW South Asians have appearances and phenotypes that are no different from Pashtuns of all types, including all the Pashtun tribes that you mentioned and then some — be they liminal South Asians or Central Asians or West Asians with heavy Central Asian influence.

      In fact, it is fair to say that any Pashtun can come to NW South Asia/NW India, speak in Punjabi, Haryanvi, Dogri or Hindi/Urdu and pass with ease as a local NWner, as a member of the many tribes that reside there, including Jats and others. I have also seen many representatives of Pashtuns in-person over the years, here in America I’ve seen thousands at conferences such as the AAC held in DC, videos of which are available on YouTube. I’ve been to Little Kabul in CA and seen many Afghans in the flesh there as well. Furthermore, I went to school with some Pasthuns and currently attend a medical school with some that are my classmates. All of them pass with ease in NW South Asia as Jats and others.

      Of course, I have also seen the representative pictures you posted of different Afghan Pashtuns based on their tribe and locations in Afghanistan, and again, they all passed with flying colors as NW South Asians. Lastly, I’ve seen plenty of media with the Pashtun people online, be it TOLO TV, or VOA Dari/Pashto and many other Afghan-specific channels, including the graduation videos of the AUA in Kabul, and it goes without saying, I’ve yet to come across a Pashtun that looks different from Jats, Rors and others in NW South Asia. They look identical to each other. I will close by saying that I have seen a significant community of Pashtuns that live in NW India near Old Delhi (in the flesh), and know of some that live in Kolkata and others that live in UP (there are documentaries available on them online).

      They dont stand out in these places anymore than other NWners from the aforementioned Hindu and Sikh tribes. They have maintained endogamy as well, so they still have the same looks and appearances as their brethren further West. Honestly, I think of Pashtuns as our Dari and Pashto speaking brothers, who converted to Islam under the influence of Turkish expansion/raids. Their appearances/phenotypes and racial character are not any different from NW South Asian Hindu and Sikh tribes, and many of their cultural customs have parallel with ours, including the concept of treating guests with great honor and respect.

      1. While this is true with respect to “average” Indians of the North and North West, this is completely untrue with respect to NW South Asian tribes like the Rors, Jats, Kambojas, Khatris, Sindhi Higher Castes and certain other tribes of the Punjab/Haryana and Kashmir.

        you’re listing the majority of nw indians so how can’t they be the average?

        1. @Razib

          The majority of the NW still comprises of non-Biradri castes in terms of pure population numbers. The average would thus be skewed in terms of both appearance and AASI values, towards generic NWners that don’t have the same ancestral profile as Biradri groups like Jats and Rors and Khatris etc. That is what Sein was referring to as well, I believe. In India and in South Asia in general, you can’t take averages based on geographic region due to things like migration from other regions, the presence of large-r numbers of high-AASI and highly-Turkic admixed castes and individuals, and the heterogeneity of the demographics of the region in general. Only a relative minority of NWners such as those that form the biradri communities, are like the Pashtuns in a phenotypic/racial sense. Of course, you know the genetic details much better than I do, I am simply describing the population dynamics and social dynamics with regards to immigration and historic migration patterns, which have shaped the demographics of the region considerably.

          1. While the Indian government is notoriously poor at collecting data about caste-based population numbers, from what I’ve seen based on past Censuses ranging from the times of the British Raj to the the last time a caste-based survey was conducted in the NW (there was one conducted by the Mandal commission in 1980, another by the NSSO in 2006, and the most recent one, which was the largest caste-based census conducted in 2011 nation-wide), Biradri communities form less than half of the total population of the NW (the NW meaning Punjab, Haryana and the NCR region in general). This means they form a relative minority in the region. Hence, averages won’t be useful in terms of comparisons to specific groups like the Pashtuns and others.

      2. @APthk

        “Pashtuns… who converted to Islam under the influence of Turkish expansion/raids.”

        😂

        I’m sorry brother… but that, that right there was something else. I just stumbled on this right now.

        Thankfully, we do know a thing or two about the Islamization of the Pashtuns; and I can assure you that the broader Turkic expansion across Central and into West Asia had absolutely nothing to do with it. It’s an interesting topic in-and-of-itself. But brevity isn’t a virtue that I can proudly claim among my intellectual accomplishments. I write far too much… and this is a historical topic about which I could very well write a rather serious tome, one that hits the 500 pg mark (not counting footnotes, index, and bibliography).

        And just a parenthetical, but it should be noted that medieval sources construe both Turks and Pashtuns as being equally foreign to Greater India….. and that the expansion of Islam into the subcontinent was spearheaded by both Pashtuns and Turks.

        In fact, before the Mughals, many of the Islamic polities in the subcontinent were Pashtun projects. And even in the Mughal context, many of their military elites were Pashtun, and the Mughals viewed them as being in the same category as outland Turks and Persians.

        “Honestly, I think of Pashtuns as our Dari and Pashto speaking brothers…. and many of their cultural customs have parallel with ours, including the concept of treating guests with great honor and respect.”

        This though, this I can get on board with. I’ve never met any Hindu Jats, but I’ve known my own fair share of Sikh people (and I’ll assume that what applies in that case can also apply to Hindu Jats). And they really have been fundamentally good people. No doubts concerning hospitality and respect. And when I was a teenager, one summer I worked with a Sikh Jatt man who will forever live on in my mind as being among the most warmly generous (and among the most hilarious!) men that I’ve ever had the pleasure of knowing.

        “Their appearances/phenotypes and racial character are not any different from NW South Asian Hindu and Sikh tribes.”

        Again, I’ve never known any Hindu Jats. But I’ve seen diasporic Sikh and Hindu South Asians of all stripes all throughout my life, and I’ve traveled in both Pakistan and Afghanistan.

        And I have my own physical self as an example (lol). I’m a rather Pashtun-looking individual. The sort that could pass in the southwest as a Durrani, or in the highlands as a Karlani (especially when I let the beard and hair go wild), or in the northeastern region stretching from greater Nangarhar to greater Peshawar. Phenotypically, I’m a Pashtun’s Pashtun (Lmao).

        And to be completely frank, I stick out like a sore thumb among Punjabis and Sindhis. And yes, I’m referring to the Punjabis and Sindhis that are genetically West Eurasian, and phenotypically Caucasoid.

        No one in my immediate family can pass in any part of South Asia besides Kashmir… and even there we’d look “off”. It’s not even about pale skin, or “sharp” features.

        Yes, in the context of South Asia, I do have very pale skin (and a normal/average skin tone by Iranian plateau/Near Eastern standards + swarthier-Southern-Europeans-like-Sicilians standards), and by any standards my facial features involve a very narrow and prominent nose coupled with a bony/angular face (so what Indians call “sharp features”).

        But as you just noted, many northwestern South Asians can have paler skin, and many of those same northwestern South Asians can have narrow noses and angular faces. Yet… I still don’t look exactly like those people. I still look “off”.

        Hindu Jats are genetically West Eurasian, and phenotypically Caucasoid. Pashtuns are genetically West Eurasian, and phenotypically Caucasoid.

        But so are the Germans and Russians. Or the English and the Lithuanians. Or the Spaniards and the Greeks. Or Algerians and Moroccans. Or the Kurds and Lebanese Christians.

        Being phenotypically “Caucasoid” and genetically “West Eurasian” does not mean that everyone will look the same.

        And on a global scale, the genetic distinction between a Hindu Jat and a Pashtun certainly isn’t huge. But it isn’t trivial; these are very far from being genetically identical populations. It goes back to the Bronze Age:

        In terms of genomic ancestry, the largest single stream for Pashtuns comes from something related to the Oxus civilization (BMAC). The average Pashtun is around 40% BMAC (the southwesterners are 55%, the highlanders 50%, and the northeasterners will range between 45% and 20%, depending on the extent of Punjabi-related affinity).

        In terms of genomic ancestry, the largest single stream for Hindu Jats is something related to the Indus civilization. Hindu Jats are at 60%. We have some of this too… but not as much as any of the Jaats/Jatts/Jats.

        Then 40% of your genomic ancestry is from Sintashta + Botai/Dali_EBA (35% Sintashta + 5% Botai-like). Pashtuns are more like 30% Sintashta, but the range is from 25%-to a little over 35%, depending on geography. And our steppe ancestry skews towards Scythians, the Kangju, the Kushans, etc. Jats prefer Andronovo. Not exactly a shocker; the contemporary East Iranian population prefers ancient East Iranians of the historical era, while the Indo-Aryan populations prefers steppe peoples who might have been Indo-Iranian (rather than either/or. Because we still don’t have the right steppe samples for the “Indo” in Indo-Iranian)

        Even our R1a1a shows differentiation. Indian R1a1a tends to fall under L657; Pashtun R1a1a does not.

        This is my attempt at summary… and even then, it feels like I went overboard (and yet still, despite writing so much, I’ve simplified many things). But I hope you can see what I’m saying.

        1. @Commentator/Seinundzeit

          Good description of the genetic and phenotypical distinctions between NW South Asians and Pashtuns. I should add that Pashtuns are the genetically and phenotypically closest people to South Asians, and especially NW South Asians, among the non-South Asian peoples APthk will find. My brother did his military service in Kabul, Afghanistan, and remarked the particularly swarthy complexion of Pashtuns as someone coming from Turkey, imagine how stronger such remarks he would make about the locals if he was a soldier in Punjab or Sindh.

          1. @Onur

            Thank you; I just wanted to be factual.

            “My brother did his military service in Kabul, Afghanistan”

            For what it’s worth, Kabul is only 25% Pashtun on paper (the Afghan government likes to inflate Pashtun numbers; good chance that Kabul is only 15%-20% Pashtun). And many Kabuli Pashtun people have Tajik or Uzbek mothers, and even Tajik or Uzbek paternal grandmothers (probably 30% of them, so definitely a non-trivial amount are mixed).

            So your brother actually saw Tajiks, Uzbeks, and Hazara, with a sprinkling of Pashtuns here and there. If he was in Helmand, or Paktika, or Laghman… then he would’ve been in the Pashtun heartland (regions where 80%-100% of the population is Pashtun). It’s better he wasn’t though, as a matter of safety; a lot of military “action” in those parts. Kabul is much less dangerous.

            I’ve been to Istanbul, but no other part of Turkey (when I was 12; a family vacation). We blended in with the locals. And we’re pretty normal looking Pashtuns.

            Adjusting for tanning (and in both Afghanistan and Pakistan, most Pashtun men are heavily tanned by the sun, and doused in that ever present dust, lol), not much of a difference (if any) between Pashtun and Turkish pigmentation.

            Especially the people from eastern Turkey (you might find this of interest: we’re “family friends” with a family ancestrally rooted in eastern Turkey, right here in the states), and your Kurds. The ones with roots in the Balkans though… definitely lighter than us on average.

            And genetically, the northeastern Pashtuns would be the closest West Asians to northwestern South Asia (Punjabis and Sindhis). But not the central and southwestern Pashtuns. (I have samples for all three groups)

            By phenotype though, the most northwestern South Asian-looking people of the Greater Near East or Central Asia are not even the northeastern Pashtuns (even though genetically, they and the Kalasha do fit that bill).

            I think Balochis take that title. They’re definitely culturally Near Eastern, and genetically they’re a unique sort of West Asian… but physically, they look kinda northwestern Indian. Because they have tons of Iran_N, and Iran_N probably looked fairly similar to some contemporary South Asians.

            A big part of the stereotypical “Indian” phenotype draws from this West Eurasian heritage (the CHG/Sarazm_EN/Iran_N/Indus_perhiphery family of ancient populations; we could call them the ANE-shifted ancient West Asians). Which is why some western Persians and Kurds can look surprisingly “Indian”.

            Also, related to the above:

            Balochis look kinda northern South Asian, despite being genetically West Asian… but some Iranian Bandaris look straight up South Indian! It’s actually pretty cool. I’m referring to the ones without African admixture; those individuals are distinguishable by their curly hair.

            ^ I suppose there’s a large minority of non-African admixed Bandaris who look like South Indians, because they have even less Levant_N/Anatolia_N than Balochis. The Levant_N/Anatolia_N in Balochis might somewhat vaguely mirror the phenotypic effects of Steppe_MLBA in northwestern South Asia… while lower levels of such ancestry in Bandaris makes their Iran_N heritage more phenotypically obvious?

            Ergo, perhaps Iran_N-related populations would’ve looked like the more West Eurasian South Indians (some South Indians are at 60% West Eurasian, and their Brahmins are around 70% West Eurasian), but without the AASI influence?

          2. @Commentator

            Y dont u write an article on the current peace process in Afghanistan. It would be of great insight 2 all of us 🙂

          3. @Commentator/Seinundzeit

            Thanks for your thoughtful input as usual. My brother made separate remarks about different ethnic groups in Kabul, the one I mentioned was his remark specifically about Pashtuns. He also noted the lack of people with Turanid looks among Pashtuns in contrast to the other ethnic groups of Kabul.

            I have not traveled beyond Turkey in West Asia or in Central Asia, so cannot make detailed remarks about the looks of the peoples there, but the skin pigmentation maps I have seen usually show Turkey lighter in average pigmentation than most other parts of West Asia and than South Central Asia. This is in line with my personal observations of various West Asian peoples in Austria. Turkey has very low percentage of dark individuals like the Khorasani Persian guy I saw in Austria for instance and the Turkish skin pigmentation average is not so different from the Southern European values I have seen. I trust you when you said you blended in Turkey, many individuals from the other West Asian countries would also have no difficulty passing in Turkey.

            Yes, you could be right on the Balochi issue, some YouTube videos of them I have watched also show them to have many dark individuals. I have heard similar remarks about them before.

        2. “Hindu Jats are genetically West Eurasian, and phenotypically Caucasoid. Pashtuns are genetically West Eurasian, and phenotypically Caucasoid.”

          @ Commentator/Seinundzeit
          LoL. I dont even know what this comment means. what i do know is that when you started commenting on this blog, you brought in a lot of fresh air. i cherished your detailed comments on pashtun society, like what are their worldviews, what makes them tick, and such.

          and now, sad to see that you falling into the usual muck of genotype phenotype nitpicking. nothing pisses me more than this idle chatter. i would happily engage with even the dumbest internet hindus (even the ones who claim that kaaba and taj mahal were ancient hindu temples. yes that dumb!), than this race crazy crowd.

          1. Scorpion Eater,

            “I dont even know what this comment means.”

            It would really depend on the context. If the context is wholly predicated on a general sense of pragmatism (like if we’re trying to simplify any given conversation):

            West Eurasian = any population that derives the majority of it’s genetic ancestry from populational streams that are closely related (in various ways) to Iran_N (Neolithic samples from the Zagros. Close relatives of these people were Mesolithic hunter-gatherers from the southern Caucasus; samples from Sarazm in Tajikistan; and presumably Indus valley-related samples, of Bronze Age provenance), Anatolia_N (Neolithic samples from western Turkey. Close relatives of Neolithic Levantine farmers), WHG (Mesolithic European hunter-gatherers), and ANE (Siberian hunter-gatherers, whom also survived into the Bronze Age of Central Asia. Late survivals represented by Botai).

            Caucasoid = populations that cluster together in the context of cranio-facial morphology, and show clear morphological and metrical distinction from populations in Sub-Saharan Africa and East Eurasia. This concept is much older than “West Eurasian”. But unsurprisingly, they overlap almost perfectly.

            Now, if instead we’re aiming at something deeper, like perhaps an in-depth understanding of human gene-flow and genetic differentiation across the greater breadth and depth of space and time… then, then in that case both terms are nearly meaningless. (Nearly all West Eurasians have some sort of cryptic East Eurasian admixture baked-in, and some West Eurasians have hard-to-parse Para-African admixture that isn’t exactly African (Ibero-Marusians), and most West Eurasians have Basal Eurasian admixture).

            ^ qpGraph is enough to show the complexities (and uncertainties) that are involved in our shared family tree.

            But when talking to someone like Apthk, there’s not much point in diving into the complexities (let alone veering into very serious territory, serious territory in which we might possibly discuss the local ontology involved with aDNA studies, or even the epistemic issues).

            It’s definitely not quality conversation; rereading it certainly doesn’t make one proud (lol). But in my defense, even a man of thought must sometimes allow his neurons a chance to rearrange themselves. 😁

            ^ Jokes aside though, I totally hear ya. And I apologize.

          2. Saurav,

            You’re much too kind.

            I do have some thoughts on the current situation. I wouldn’t mind sharing them; I’ll polish them up though.

        3. @ Commentator/Seinundzeit
          hey hi mate
          I think what really Pakistani Pashtuns(those who live in KPK province, not those who live in Balochistan or Afghanistan) are differing from Northwest South Asians is that, they have less AASI(this is the main factor) and they have more BMAC related admixture.
          For comparison, I have compared Uthmankhel Pashtuns(Pretty typical Pashtun group) with Iranian Fars(Southern Iranian group), Tajiks from Tajikistan and Northwest South Asians.
          So, here is the result i got(Fit in Nmonte)
          1
          Gujar Pakistan Average
          5.26
          2
          Potohar Rajput Average
          5.48
          3
          Punjab Ramgharia Average
          5.55
          4
          Tajik Average
          7.34
          5
          Iranian Fars Average
          11.83
          As you can clearly see, My comparison is Unbiased, as i have compared generic Northwest groups(Not even Jatt or Khatri type group) with Uthmankhel Pashtuns
          As we can see clearly, they are noticeably closer to Northwest groups than they are to tajiks(Tajikistan) or Southern Iranians, Anyway the groups which i have compared(Northwest groups) were not the most west eurasian shifted groups, If we compare them with Khatris or Kambojs, Uthmankhel Pashtuns will be lot more closer to Khatri type groups.
          Anyway, If we compare Afghani Pashtuns or those who live in Balochistan, that will be a different story, But those who live in KPK province are undoubtedly closer to Northwest South Asians than they are to Tajiks or Southern Iranians.
          I think, Most of the pashtuns live in KPK province like 70% of the total pashtun population( u can correct me here),
          Anyway, I used Nmonte here rather than Fst because Nmonte does not get affected by inbreeding while Fst does.

  17. I think Pakistanis special-pleading for Pakistan as culturally distinct from India is an is-ought confusion.

    Pakistan wants to be different. It is hard to create difference in culture ex nihilo, so they try to read that wish into history and justify their difference by tethering themselves to every foreign invader since the ārya-s. The further back in time they go, the more stupid and unfalsifiable it sounds.

    They should let go of the past baggage and concentrate on their present and future if they truly want to be ‘different’. But true to their Indic nature the family looms large (even when in denial). It is hard to speciate.

    PS: I concur that the mastery of Pakistanis of Sanskrit lit is astounding!

    1. he is the idol for the Pak Punjabi ethnonationalist islamoapologists. Our resident one constantly quotes him verbatim. I didn’t realize until I went on araingang’s medium and read some of the posts. He is big on Pak subreddit too. The guy is a celebrity with his penchant for rationalization.

      1. lol he’s also big on other desi-related subs, including r/sikh, r/abcdesis, etc. always ripping on Hindus one way or another (but smart enough to call it “Hindutva” in the same way some of the more sophisticated anti-Muslim types will use “Islamism”).

        1. Yeah Khalistanis and Pakistani Punjabis like his thinly veiled supremacism and Hindu trashing. Leftists just like to get their hands on anything that insults the majority. So they are the most naive. Diaspora is full of them.

          1. Yeah, i think there might be decoupling of Indian and Indian diaspora (and the woke “diaspora in mind” back in India) sort of like Iran and Irani diaspora . It would be good after all. Perhaps it will push Indian Americans to look for their own sub culture rather than hanging on to Indian culture to make their mark, similar 2 how African Americans did.

  18. all the OIT ppl. though the more competent ones who don’t lie or mislead (a lot of OIT ppl don’t know what they are talking about re: genetics, but a minority do)

  19. Koenraad Elst once speculated that the IVC inhabitants were the actual Mlecchas of the Vedas. If that’s pointing to even a partial truth, then Pakistanis are the real inheritors of that culture. Islam is only an aberration.

    Has anyone read the thoughts of Maharaja Ranjit Singh on the inhabitants of the Northwest beyond the Punjab? One might be mistaken into thinking that those were the utterances of some modern Indians.

    1. Meluhha (pronounced Melukkha) initially referred to what is now Baloch. Highland area.

      Meluhha > Baluhhu > Maloch/Baloch

      And India is clearly rooted in the Sindh. Both these areas are in modern Pakistan.

      So what were the original names of Gujarat, Punjab and Haryana? We have no idea, they were all lumped under Sindh/Baloch by outsiders.

      1. So the “branding” behind the name India comes from Indic civilizational ethos that developed in the Indian subcontinent over the course of history.

        Wouldn’t really have mattered if it was called something else.

        Yes the ancestors of the people who currently make up modern Pakistan legitimately contributed to some of that ethos.

        But modern Pakistanis disavow almost all Indic connections that existed pre-Islam.

        So to try to exclusively claim the name “India” now while disavowing so much of what it stands for is silly.

        1. \Pakistanis disavow almost all Indic connections that existed pre-Islam.\

          You can add ‘disavow almost all Hindu connections that existed pre-47’

        2. or take credit for many of the achievements of indic civilization by claiming to be the true inheritors and those of the rest of the subcontinent just as identity less clowns who want to take credit for the history of the glorious NW peoples. the narrative is shifting from a religious one to an equally false and much more racist Pak Punjabi supremacist one, led by aforementioned yours truly.

          Will the real Indus Shady please stand up
          Please stand up…

  20. The reason why Pakistanis are even interested in this stuff because they know it discomforts Indians. And whatever discomforts Indians, comforts them.

    Rather than reason or harp on “why cant they accept Indic roots? “, its better to just laugh off their assertion to anything IVC or Indian and deny them all history. More history for your own folks.

    1. I found the opposite to be true in my interactions with the Pakistanis (mostly in the US over last two decades and mostly in parties etc.. not online) The Indians typically claim brotherhood with them just to piss them off. They have so magnificently deluded themselves as the descendants of the Turks, Arabs and even their Holy Prophet (so many Indian Sayyads) that ‘Aap hamare hi to log hain’ often results in an immediate ‘constipated look’ on many a faces. Even the Mohajir ones. (I have however seen several exceptions among Sindhis) One of my Bihari Pakistani friends (only non practicing Pakistani Muslim I know) makes brutal fun of his ‘Sayyad’ wife that she married a ‘Pasminda’. For Bonus points, Indians bring up that Allama Iqbal was a second generation convert and was overcompensating for his ‘Hinduness’!
      As a corollary, most Parsees I know seem so very comfortable with their Indianness despite a largely Persian ancestry!

    1. This post reminds me of the ‘out of india’ aryan loony theories peddled by some of the bloggers on this site. Well written, referenced articles, that to the uninitiated may seem like some reasonable argument, but in reality just complete bullsh** that would be laughed off the stage by any objective historian/scientist.

  21. “That being said, a large proportion of Indians did convert to Islam. Why? How? The hypothesis that this was due to forced conversion at the point of a sort is not plausible. This is, frankly, the view of the ignorant and stupid. This did occur across Islamic history, but this was the exception, not the rule.” you write.
    While I have much respect for all the stuff you write about DNA/ ancestry (elsewhere as well) your knowledge of history is shocking. One single source on atrocities and conversion is the first volume of Wll Durant’s monumental history. Contemporary of Muslim chroniclers write with much satisfaction of both the genocide and conversion of Hindus. This is similar to what Catholics did in pockets in India and elsewhere. Large scale conversions took place never in the centre but in the periphery. This was true of the mughals as well as other muslim rulers This is true of Malabar both when Tipu Sultan invaded and at the time of the Moplah rebellion. Contemporary local records and books published then are a good source. No so the politically motivated historians of recent times!(when I was a young district officer in Malabar in the 60s I went through the records of the Moplah rebellion, including reports eyewitness accounts and petitions of the affected. I met many old women and men in their 70s and 80s who did remember the horror of those dreadful times.

  22. your knowledge of history is shocking. One single source on atrocities and conversion is the first volume of Wll Durant’s monumental history. Contemporary of Muslim chroniclers write with much satisfaction of both the genocide and conversion of Hindus.

    i have forgotten more history in a day that you know. that’s probably true.

    you seem incapable of understanding that muslims, in particular, are vainglorious braggart. nominally they should have killed the hindus but they taxed them and stole for them. so they made sure there were records amplifying their periodic massacres.

    being a dumbass, you probably take the armies of one million in the ancient world at face value. like you, they lacked the ability to count and a tenuous relationship to empirics.

    you are the like the Muslim, an adherent to your delusion. common sense can’t break through because your dogma is strong. if force was critical then there’d be more rape, evident in the genes. there is none.

    though perhaps like Richard Nixon the central asian muslims found indian woman exceedingly ugly?

    1. @Razib

      if force was critical then there’d be more rape, evident in the genes. there is none.

      though perhaps like Richard Nixon the central asian muslims found indian woman exceedingly ugly?

      Do you think we can explain the ubiquity of Turkic admixture (varying in amount from region to region) among the Muslims of Anatolia and some parts of the eastern Balkans as a result of widespread mass enslavement and/or rape of the Christian natives by the Turkic invaders, especially following the conquests? I can ask a similar question about the Muslims of large parts of today’s Arab-speaking world based on the wide distribution of the Arabian admixture there (though not in all parts, and the Arabian admixture may actually be lower than the later imported slave – white or black – admixture in some parts, see my genetic analyses below). If your answer to these questions is yes, do you think the widespread mass enslavement and/or rape of the conquered non-Muslims is the main driver of the spread of Turkish and Arabic in those regions respectively along with Islam? Obviously in those parts of the world Turkic and Arabian conquerors and their descendants did not find the natives in general ugly, but to the contrary, more beautiful than themselves and worthy to mix with going by their own history, writings and also genetics.

      Among the Iranian Muslims I usually do not find any Arabian admixture in my genetic analyses, but even many of the non-Turkic-speaking ones show some Turkic admixture, however in quite tiny amounts (again, see my genetic analyses below), so presumably they converted to Islam without any Arabian admixture for the vast majority, explaining also why they preserved their Iranian languages while converting to Islam; and beginning from the Seljuk conquests of Iran, some of them acquired some Turkic admixture, but only those parts that acquired Turkic admixture beyond a certain threshold switched to a Turkic language.

      https://drive.google.com/file/d/1f7RX8W6160ggUQpk2Fu4QvnVTgc5p6wm/view?usp=sharing

      https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bEeIIjXaE66JKLAwsDMwYPYlfmiTinIh/view?usp=sharing

      https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1a5byEejcptHST6X2L6Exb60uGXnyI6tZYI7HWG-EkkE/edit#gid=0

      https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-dExi7dxWVfM5p_fppGYRyNBXx0SBeBIDE0r78MpqKw/edit#gid=0


      1. Do you think we can explain the ubiquity of Turkic admixture (varying in amount from region to region) among the Muslims of Anatolia and some parts of the eastern Balkans as a result of widespread mass enslavement and/or rape of the Christian natives by the Turkic invaders,

        no.

        1. I thought so. The main determinant on the genetic impact of an invasion seems to be immigrant/resident ratio, which in turn is highly influenced by demographic, geographical, cultural and historical conditions.

    2. There is this explanation that Muslims exaggerated violence to brag, Hindus did so to claim victimhood and English did it to divide. Unfortunately you can’t find ethnographic evidence on how many were killed. May be the central Asian Muslims found Indian woman exceedingly ugly so there was no incentive to keep them alive and rape than to kill. My be they were enslaved and transported away to be sold. May be most of the offsprings of those unfortunates couldn’t survive.

      Probably, once the war phase was over, people, being too many, weren’t converted by sword but by stick and carrots policy. Sharia discriminated non-Muslims economically and socially. Non-Islamic religions and their followers were humiliated regularly. Tribalism of Muslims in regional majority worked the same way. How it succeeded can be seen in the history (and present situation of non-Muslims) of Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan. It’s similar to low intensity war with violence and socio-economic bigotry employed to long-term effectiveness.

    3. @razib, are you willing to consider that the poster is not ‘intellectually challenged’ as you accuse him of (albeit in less polite terms)but simply a good politician? ‘Forced conversions’ has much more of a currency than the run of the mill enticement,inducement,to curry favors, to get ahead etc etc right?
      I just thought of something.. If the Muslim haters shifted the narrative from ‘forced conversion’ to ‘enticement/inducement’. They will get a new weapon… “Bike huve logon ki auladen”. Medieval equivalent of ‘Ricebag converts’. It may not work for the GENUINE RSS believers though…They really want to embrace the Muslims and bring them back to the mother culture.

    4. @Razib,
      With regard to the Central Asian Muslims finding Indian women ugly, it wasn’t true in all instances. After all, the great Mughal emperors often married many Hindu Rajput women themselves, and Rajput queens often held pride of place in the Royal Harem, serving as the chief queen in many cases. Akbar married a Hindu Rajput Princess, so an Indian woman, and his son Jahangir also married an Indian Hindu Rajput princess as well, who later gave birth to Shah Jahan, the greatest Mughal Emperor of them all. Every other Mughal emperor, including and after Aurangzeb, always had a Rajput wife as one of his chief consorts, sometimes serving as the Queen Mother as well.

      Shah Jahan was thus at least 75% Indian genetically/by ancestry and looked like many NW Indians as well, as his portraits depict him. The Mughal harems had women hailing from all over the Muslim world, and yet they still chose to keep many Indian women in their legendary harems, and form marital alliances with Hindu Rajput Royal families, with the net result that Mughals effectively assimilated into Indian society in the genetic and cultural sense by the time Shah Jahan came to the throne.

      As far as Nixon is concerned, I doubt he really meant what he said, it was perhaps a snide remark expressing his exasperation at the political impasse he had reached with Indira Gandhi’s government in those turbulent times. Let’s not forget, Nixon was not exactly a stranger to such off-color remarks; he is also on record to have claimed that Homosexuality destroyed Greece and Rome, and that African women have an “animal-like charm” to them. Little did he know that Indian women can look like anything, from the East Asian beauty to the Latina diva to the MENA and Eastern European princess that he likely admired. There are also rumors that he was gay himself, and might have been in the closet. Though this is unsubstantiated according to the evidence we have.

  23. the new world is major exception. the ethnographic evidence and some Y chromosome work indicates high polygyny by iberian men.

    my point re: south asia is that the idea that there were mass conversions through force seem ridiculous. it could happen but it would be strange that these central asian warriors who often arrived without female companions didn’t engage in mass rapes somewhat correlated with their mass killings.

    basically it seems clear that muslims, who viewed hindus as subhuman, wanted to depict themselves as killer ghazis. so they exaggerated the extent of their violence and brutality since that was a meritorious act in their moral system. the reality is that they killed and looted opportunistically, and most of India and indians were left untouched so long as they paid protection money.

    the less intelligent hindus take Muslim braggadocio at face value since they have a civilizational animus.

    it seems the vast majority of Muslim conversion occurred opportunistically and communally. not through blatant coercion at the point of a sword

    1. Communal conversions indeed make a difference. In contrast, in Anatolia and parts of the eastern Balkans conversions to Islam seem to have happened like this mostly: largely male Turkish-speaking Muslim conquerors and later immigrants taking local wives or concubines (no big deal to take a local Christian wife or concubine during the times of conquests, they mostly converted to Islam anyway) + largely opportunistic or economically-induced conversions of individual Christians over the centuries. Communal conversions to Islam happened in Anatolia too, but they seem to be more a feature of the conversions in most parts of the Balkans (Bosniaks, Muslim Albanians, Pomaks, Torbesh, Vallahades and maybe also some of the Greater Macedonian Turks seem to be their outcome) and of northeastern Anatolia, Crete, southern Georgia, and parts of Cyprus and coastal Crimea.

      1. Turkish people in Anatolia/Turkey today are anywhere from 5 to 20% East Asian in their Autosomal makeup, (with most in the 5-16% range, and some outliers going up to 25% East Asian in some cases) based on the results I have seen of the admixture analyses of Turkish people published online. There are even some cases of minor Sub-Saharan African admixture in certain Turks as is evidenced by the results that have been published.

        NW Indian tribes are anywhere from 10-17% AASI, which is a sister group of NE Asian, and part of the same clade/race as East Asians. In this sense, most Turkish people and NW Indian Tribes are equally West Eurasian/Caucasian, and equally admixed with Asian groups. In some cases, NW Indians and Turkish also share some common ancestors. This also explains why some Turkish people look identical to NW Indians, and vice versa.

        Of course, Turkey has seen many different West Eurasian groups migrate over the centuries, including many that never came to India, such as the Circassians and other European peoples who were imported into Turkey as slaves and concubines. This means that many Turkish people have different appearances not found in countries further East, like Iran and Iraq and NW India. But there are still overlaps with people living in these aforementioned countries due to shared ancestors and historical migration, particularly from Iran, which explains why NW Indians and some Turks overlap in appearances.

        Here in America, I have come across many different types of Turkish people, some I thought were NW Indian at first, others looked like New World non-White Latinos to me, and still others looked like Dr. Oz and what I can only describe as quasi-Eastern European. There are also some that look like Levantines. So there is great diversity among the Turkish people.

    2. “it seems the vast majority of Muslim conversion occurred opportunistically and communally. not through blatant coercion at the point of a sword.”

      How much of impact has centuries of divergent fertility rates between the various religious communities had? Am I wrong in assuming the by and large Muslim community has had a higher rate (not necessarily by a lot) and after centuries the impact has been quite significant?

      1. How much of impact has centuries of divergent fertility rates between the various religious communities had? Am I wrong in assuming the by and large Muslim community has had a higher rate (not necessarily by a lot) and after centuries the impact has been quite significant?

        we can’t assume this. fertility rates change fast. jews had much higher fertility than non-jews in 18th century in central europe and lower by 20th century. muslims had lower fertility than xtians in balkans in 19th century, mostly cuz they were more urban.

        islam as an ideology IS pronatalist. so this might make an impact on the margin, but not much. (judaism is pronatalist too, and implicitly hinduism is in expecting the vast majority of people to be householders at some point)

    1. I was just letting Mr. Dincer here know that his vaunted Turkish self isn’t different from NW Indians, both in terms of ENA admixture and in terms of phenotype in many cases. As you have rightly observed in the past, he seems to have a hard on for Middle Eastern purity and likes disassociating himself from all South Asians, and I have seen his posts on Eurogenes and other blogs testifying to this fact. He really shouldn’t be engaging in such tomfoolery given how mixed Turkish people are and given the diversity of appearances among them. I’m also a little tickled at his amateur analyses of Iranians, and I plan to put him in his place very soon regarding his claim that Iranians weren’t affected post Iron Age by Turkic and Arabic migrations and rape/killings/assimilation. Citations and data coming right up Mr. Dincer.

  24. @APthk

    Yes, there are some NW South Asians (from Pakistan and NW India) who can easily pass in Turkey, but those individuals can usually pass easily in West Asian countries in general, so I would search the basis of the phenotypical overlaps in the West Eurasian components rather than the East Eurasian ones. After all, “East Eurasian proper” and AASI separated tens of thousands of years ago, so there is presumably very limited phenotypical overlap between them (as a similar case: how much phenotypical overlap do you see between the Papuans and modern East Eurasians?). The AASI-heavy populations with no admixture from “East Eurasian proper” (so the Munda and Bengalis are out) in general do not have phenotypical similarities to modern East Eurasians.

    As for Iranian genetics, I have already made reference several times to the tiny Turkic admixtures seen in some of the Iranian-speaking Muslim groups of Iran. But I do not see the same evidence for the Muslim Arab mix in them except the Sayyids among them, to the contrary, many Iraqi and Gulf Arabs show recent Iranian mix in genetics. I am not Iranian or related to Iran, so I have no reason to push for any Iranian purity, I am just stating what I observe in genetic results with the perspective of an outside observer.

    That the Turks show no or almost no South Asian admixture in genetic tests is a fact. But I am not vocal about it unlike some Iranians who make South Asian admixture an obsession and try every way to disassociate themselves from South Asia. I have rarely spoken on the subject of South Asian admixture in Turks over the years, so your portrayal of me as someone fixated on that topic is utterly misleading.

    1. @warlock
      JJ Bhai/Doctor Saab, I believe we got off on the wrong foot. I’m being completely genuine when I say that I have no bone to pick with Gujaratis or other South Asians for that matter. I greatly respect them from the bottom of my heart, and I feel proud to have AASI ancestry that all South Asians share. I am also happy to see diaspora Gujaratis prosper in all kinds of environments and countries, despite the uphill battle they face upon arrival. I also respect you as an individual for your achievements in the medical field.

      What irks me is not your identity as a Gujarati, but the general idea I have seen peddled by certain people, including yourself, and including other non-South Asians, that we are all just one big “Brown” monolith that can be caricatured or other-ized by fellow Americans or Europeans or any groups of people outside of South Asia. I was just watching “The Problem with Apu” the other day, and I realized, the Hank Azarias of the world genuinely believe that Indians are all some “Brown folk” who speak in an exaggerated caricature of an accent (I have NEVER heard ANY South Asian speak in his drawl) and that they all look similar, eat the same food (“Curry”) and speak the same “Indian” language.

      Not only is this wrong, it lends itself to further lampooning of the Indian diaspora and NRI community, as well as of the Indian Americans that live here. If Azaria and Matt Groening had known of India’s mind-boggling diversity in race, ethnicity, language, accents, religion, cuisine, culture and traditions, alongside many other things, I really doubt they would have gone out on a limb and come up with a ridiculous character like Apu (which he admits was a caricature of convenience store workers he encountered in a California 7/11).

      If Azaria had know for instance, that there are Indians that look East or South East Asian in the NE of India, that there are Black South Asians like the Siddi, that there are non-White Latino and Hispanic looking folk in the West and North of India, and that there are also Jews, both Baghdadi, Bene Israel, Kolkata Jews, and Syrian Jews, in addition to West Asian/Persian/Slavic-looking NW biradri folks living in India, there would simply be no way the Simpsons, or for that matter any prejudiced American, would have gotten away with the stereotypes and preconceived notions we see all over media/the world regarding ALL South Asians, as personified by Apu and the “Rapist Indian” or “Street-shitting Indian” memes.

      I firmly believe that pointing out the fact that we are not all a monolith, and that our ethnic groups and racial groups have distinct identities despite sharing many things like Religion, language and aspects of culture is our strength, for it makes us less vulnerable to ignorant stereotyping and prejudice/racism, and will make even the most ignorant of folk think twice before painting all Indians, or ANY Indian with the same brush. I think you got the wrong impression about this, and hence think that pointing out the very real phenotypic, genetic, and cultural differences amongst us serves to demonize AASI heavy castes, or to splinter the South Asian community. I couldn’t disagree with this more.

      Highlighting our diversity would only serve to improve our image and to strengthen it, for once people realize that Indian is nothing more than a nationality, they would ALWAYS hesitate to come up with racist ideas/tropes/caricatures/characters/memes and prejudiced opinions/views about ANY and ALL South Asians the way they do currently, and this would not only protect the castes that look “Stereotypically Brown” but also the entire Indian community as a whole. I hope you see this holistic picture, because it would hardly make sense for there to be any “Indian” jokes or racialist views if people understand that Indian is a nationality and the original “America of the East” if you will, and as such Indian can mean anything from a Chinese person to a Black person to a Mexican person to a MENA person and even a White person, based on India’s diversity and how these people would be classified by Americans racially.

      We need more people to understand this fact, so that India and Indians along with their image is strengthened as a whole. Less “Birdy Num Num”. Seeing that India is a part of the global village will only serve to help us, rather than the way things are currently, where Indians are seen as some sort of a outcaste group with appearances and accents and culture/traditions not found anywhere outside of India. Let me know if you have further questions about this, I can talk over email. Let me know what your email address is. Thanks.

      1. thanks. While me may disagree on some stuff, I do appreciate the sentiment you expressed here. I think we should focus on stuff we agree on because I think that’s most major things. We are both pro-science, pro-classical liberalism, anti- radical leftism, and pro dharmic people.

      2. Apthk, you make some great points. For many in the US, understanding the differences between us is not worth their time. If anything, to understand our variety is to dignify, and for a diaspora desi to only insist on the collective identity is to privilege the white POV above all others. As such its considered clever to say “white-supremicist don’t care whether you are north-south, paki/hindu, tropical looking / himalayan fair, to them we are all spice rack dot-heads”. I can’t think of a better reason to assert our particularities, while honouring our civilizational ties.

        1. While I think this is true, people need to stand up for each other both ways. When people say, XYZ NW Indian origin bollywood actor “doesn’t look Indian” I notice even more AASI people challenge the assertion and assert Indian diversity. I see this online in the likes of youtube comments and also in real however.

          However, when whites disparage the looks of more tropical featured and dark people, I notice NW people run from that and say stuff like “Only S Indians are like that,” “Punjabis don’t look like that. We look tall, fair, strong, and better” and try to assert they are some form of superior phenotypic race that should be distanced from the others.

          It would be good to have the diversity honored. But not in a way to centralize the scapegoating to our more AASI peers but rather to assert “We are all S Asians. Yes there are racial and cultural differences between groups. But we have a common civilizational bond and identity. Stop shitting on my fellow people.”

          I notice light skinned blacks come to the rescue of dark skinned more bantu featured african Americans when people say they “look like monkeys” and other absurdly racist comments. But I have seen WAY too often, the NW upper caste/agricultural tribe crowd assert diversity mostly for the sake of passing on the scapegoating to other groups.

          Also, btw I refuse to agree with the point that even the most NW shifted tribes outside of say Nuristanis don’t have at least a non insignificant minority of darker and more tropical featured people. Also, 10-17% AASI is quite a low estimate and inconsistent with the Reich lab data. But that’s all a minor point. The bigger point is that NW Indians need to show more brotherhood with others, if they truly care about diversity to show strength of Indian civilization rather than diversity just a means of just narrowing the target on more AASI people.

          And the social circles thing I just don’t get man. Generally, the NW upper caste/agricultural tribe people are on average praised for their looks, seen as the ideal representation of the type of S Asian the diaspora wants to present in image heavy industries. I didn’t see any of this alienation in India either, living their many months in my youth.

          But again, to each their own. I still stand by my general point. And yes, I do understand the primary agency for those people who are targeted by racism, more AASI looking heavy people largely in US for anti-S Asian racism, falls upon the people targeted themselves. They need to stand up and love themselves. This still doesn’t change the fact that allies are always good, especially those with whom a natural civilizational bond already exists.

          1. agree with warlock re not standing up for more southern/eastern people and distancing. i don’t care, but it’s kind of pathetic IMO. and least pakistani muslims can LARP has persian even tho persians make fun of them 😉

          2. warlock, yes , it would be a shame to ignore the very real civilizational bonds between south asians and lose sight of that, on a global scale, we have much more in common ancestry-wise than with any other group. That said, respect is earned. If tropical looking desis don’t value their own aesthetics, that inferiority complex will permeate all parts of the culture, and i understand why there would be nothing inspiring in the association with them.

  25. (Google translated – Update)

    “The SDA’s (=muslims leading political party) game with migrants could turn into a military operation against Christians in Bosnia

    The Serbian Republic (=1/2 of Bosnian territory, MT) must no longer view this problem only as a security issue, but also as a defence one, because the situation could easily turn into a military operation against Christians in Bosnia. It should not be forgotten that there are estimates that there are currently at least 40,000 fake migrants in Bosnia. There are not migrants moving towards a better life then the defeated Taliban and ISIL and Al Qaeda soldiers currently positioned in the Balkans with a view to further actions in Europe.

    Sefik Dzaferovic (muslim member of central presidency) and (muslim) Minister for Foreign Affairs Biserka Turkovic were openly against the return of 3000 fake migrants-jihadists sent by Pakistani government to Pakistan. And this is not done by accident. The SDA has never given up on building an aggressive Islamic society and that is why migrants from Islamic countries are its ideal weapon. In this way, the SDA not only abuses state institutions, but also carries out a kind of silent aggression against Bosnia. “

    NOTE: In spite of half-half division of Bosnian territory btw. Serbs and Muslims, Serbs are (despite multiple genocides) still owners of more than 75% of the land. Muslim politicians in muslim controlled half of Bosnia, use jihadists to attack Serbian villages and to do ethnic cleansing. In the capital city of Bosnia, Sarajevo, where was the Winter Olympic games in 1984, before the war Serbs were one half of 500 K population. Now, there are no Serbs in Sarajevo.

  26. Parag Khanna, who BTW is an admixed Khatri and thus looks like a Castizo to me, explains this global village mindset perfectly, when he explains exactly what it means to be “Indian” and “Asian”, I highly recommend you watch his TED talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3715FIdHkJE

    As it turns out, Parag is around 17% SE Asian or AASI, with the rest of his DNA being West Asian and Northern European (Steppe DNA). Despite not being a NW Indian Jat like Nikki Haley, or a “Pure” Khatri like Shashi Kapoor, both of whom are Criollos and pass with flying colors as Europeans or West Asians, Parag still passes in many places around the globe, throughout Asia, from Persia to Turkey. Imagine if a lot more people knew about Indians like Parag Khanna, and that Indians are so diverse. Imagine, for instance, if more people knew that Freddy Mercury was an Indian whose ancestors have lived in India for more than 1,500 years and have mixed with Gujaratis heavily, sharing mtDNA with them, and more than a quarter of their autosomal ancestry with them, even speaking Gujarati and adopting their names, customs and traditions. Imagine if they knew that Freddy spent most of his crucial formative years growing up in Mumbai and learning music from Indians.

    Imagine if more folks knew that Nikki Haley is 100% NW Indian (and not mixed with British or other folk recently) and that there are millions of Indians like her in NW India. If more people realize just how intimately different groups of Indians are connected to the rest of the world, and how similar they are to many groups of people around the world, ranging from West Asians to Latin Americans to Eastern Europeans to Central and East/SE Asians, depending on their castes, both genetically, culturally and phenotypically, they would think twice, nay thrice, before spouting trollish nonsense about ANY and ALL Indians and South Asians. Diversity is our strength, not our enemy. Remember this.

      1. Apologies Razib, it only took me this long to patch up my animus with JJ Saab. I am a proud BP connoisseur and hope to contribute here without fomenting controversy. Thank you so much for being a voice of reason and a male role model for us younger South Asian Americans seeking to make an impact on our communities. I look forward to continue learning from your infinite wisdom, in addition to deriving inspiration from your successes on the professional (and personal) fronts.

        1. ApThk thinks that JJ are thewarlock’s initials. Only thewarlock here will get the “joke” 🙂

          APThk: I like your recently conciliatory approach, but may be, just may be tone down the Razib flattery :))

          1. True..although it is Jaat and not Jatt. The latter, because of their Sikh faith, are more admixed and therefore 2% more AASI. Important distinction

          2. Let’s keep it that way lol. People have tried to blackmail me and shit for some trolling I have done in the past for the sake of just rustling jimmies. That too my cousin used my account on a few forums, leading to wilder shit than I’m comfortable with lmfao. Never let family and friends troll on your accounts. Internet is a wild place…

    1. @ Razib

      One of my replies to the warlock wasn’t going through, I emailed you the post, would appreciate it if you could post in response to his last reply, I think it covers the good questions and issues he brings up.

      1. Wasn’t Padmavati the hindu girl with hots for the white-presenting (thanks Razib!) Turkic Muslim chap? What secrets might her box contain…

    1. We’re all Brown on the inside. Whether we are Fitzpatrick 2 or 3 on the outside doesnt matter. But I didn’t realize one could “sound” brown as well, perhaps Kashmiri Pandits are taught how to judge whether someone’s syntax sounds like an author with a particular color of skin, in the vein of Panini, albeit a more amateurish, juvenile one. BTW, I was born and brought up in the US. I feel connected to my NW Indian roots however. I just want all of us to live in harmony, be it Kashmiri Pandits, Rors/Jats or Patels and Bongs and Tamils. AASI unites us, and our Indic heritage keeps us connected to each other. Ironically I think you take after your cousin and live in your own “American/Western World” despite living in NW India. Ah, the confused NW Indian that acts like a modern-day Sahib. A familiar yet humorous sight. I’ve seen people like you here in the states, mostly recent NRI arrivals. They try to be something they’re not an fail miserably. But in your case, it seems like a family affliction. Please feel free to continue living your fantasies, I’m sure they will bring you much comfort, just like Arjun’s solos on YouTube will bring him the fame he wants from his miniscule YouTube audience. Born in the wrong place, at the wrong time. Talk about Confused Desi.

  27. i can’t post it. there must be some unicode. or something that causes it to choke.

    why don’t u start a blog devoted to the topic and you can link to your posts?

  28. I use AASI numbers from reich lab and add about a quarter of the IPE DNA to AASI, given the averaged individuals were 25% AASI. So I think most groups are at the very least 20%, with most of these NW birdaris bring like 25%. I do not agree that they would majority pass as caucasians. Outliers do. But not most. They don’t look as brown or non caucasoid featured on average as other S Asian groups, but they do not average pure west eurasian looking. Btw, Razib has said plenty of times the steppe is likely exagerrated based on nature of the data. So West Eurasian percent maybe even a bit lower.

    I don’t think NW people are being simply uncouth when they insult others. They are being serious with their assertions of racial supremacy, in terms of phenotype. They do it constantly and are the power brokers of the image conscious industries of India. And yes that is changing as other Indians learn to love themselves. But I also would like NW people to encourage the self love rather than lampoon about their more caucasoid appearance, like I have constantly witnessed. You see nonsense with the likes of Karan johar asserting Pakistanis look better than Indians. It is clear his khatri sensibilities were referring to relative causoidedness.
    And as someone who has dealt with and pushed back HARD against some of the most brutal NW birdari types on various fora who espouse hardcore supremacist views, I know a thing or two about the depth of these things. Look at the types Razib has to ban on here. It is routinely Pak and Indians of these types.

    There was a paper on bullying rates in the UK. Pakistanis, Indians, and Bangladeshis all got bullied at similar rates. You can google that. And this is despite the fact that yes on average there will be a phenotypic difference between them. Yes Westerners can differentiate between very light and very dark S Asians and less and more caucasoid ones. But frankly, I don’t see this treatment differential at all man.

    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/001318800363845?journalCode=rere20

    I am glad you likely pass as white in america and didn’t face bullying. I am glad your whole family might be this way. But I wouldn’t generalize to these Birdaris. And also the “fake khatri,” “fake jatt,” “pseudo arain” type of claims get old when counter examples are shown of phenotypes. Especially large crowd pics of panchayats and riots where diversity is clear as day.
    I have nothing against you man. I like S Asian diversity and I want to help S Asians improve their image, especially the historically and currently vary disproportionally badly treated AASI people. But I just disagree with you on a fundamental facts of inter S Asian group dynamics and racial break downs.

    Appreciate your attempt at civility.

    1. “I use AASI numbers from reich lab and add about a quarter of the IPE DNA to AASI, given the averaged individuals were 25% AASI. So I think most groups are at the very least 20%, with most of these NW birdaris bring like 25%. I do not agree that they would majority pass as caucasians. Outliers do. But not most. They don’t look as brown or non caucasoid featured on average as other S Asian groups, but they do not average pure west eurasian looking. Btw, Razib has said plenty of times the steppe is likely exagerrated based on nature of the data. So West Eurasian percent maybe even a bit lower.”

      Like I mentioned, your guess is as good as mine. No one knows what the exact breakdown of West:East Eurasian is at this point, if they did, it would have been published in a peer-reviewed journal with the claim that their estimates were 99% accurate and incontrovertible. But whether NW South Asians like Rors are 80% or more West Eurasian or whether some others like Kashmiri Pandits etc are 75% West Eurasian or more/less doesnt really matter. Bruce Lee was Asian ENOUGH for it not to matter — in other words, Bruce might not have been purely East Eurasian, but he was still a part of the larger East Eurasian race and representative of the individuals of that group. The phenotype takes precedence over some arbitary %, as most West Eurasians are admixed today. And just like Bruce is considered East Eurasian, people like Nikki Haley et al are considered West Eurasian, regardless of incomplete genetic data or admixture %s. Genetic data have only recently surfaced and are far from definitive. People dont base their identities on arbitrary % of genetic data that are far from accurate to begin with. The real world doesnt care for genetic admixture %. People identify based on their phenotype, just like Bruce did, and just like everyone else in the world does.

      As far as whether they pass as Caucasians, I’m assuming you read my reply to you above, do you think Zaha Hadid and Sheila Nazarian’s extended family pass as Pure Caucasians? There’s many examples where that came from, but I’m beginning to think you dont understand just how diverse West Asians and Caucasians truly are. What’s happening is that your ignorance of this great diversity is leading you to think that Jatts and Rors are not all “Caucasian” in appearance and thus dont all pass West of the Indus. In my experience, this is clearly not the case, but then again, since we have no scientific data to refute this in a concrete manner, this will just come down to your word vs mine again, just like the AASI admixture we already covered. I will not cover this topic any further because of this fact.

      “I don’t think NW people are being simply uncouth when they insult others. They are being serious with their assertions of racial supremacy, in terms of phenotype. They do it constantly and are the power brokers of the image conscious industries of India. And yes that is changing as other Indians learn to love themselves. But I also would like NW people to encourage the self love rather than lampoon about their more caucasoid appearance, like I have constantly witnessed. You see nonsense with the likes of Karan johar asserting Pakistanis look better than Indians. It is clear his khatri sensibilities were referring to relative causoidedness. And as someone who has dealt with and pushed back HARD against some of the most brutal NW birdari types on various fora who espouse hardcore supremacist views, I know a thing or two about the depth of these things. Look at the types Razib has to ban on here. It is routinely Pak and Indians of these types.”

      Karan Johar does not represent NW Indians. FYI, he neither looks like one of us either. I wouldn’t take an example of a person in Bollywood who is renowned for his controversial statements as an ambassador for the views of all NW Indians. And his statement is so laughably wrong, I am not going to bother addressing it either. Why do you give so much weight to the opinions of some prejudiced supremacist NWners? Do you give equal weight to NE Indians who say the same or even more prejudiced things? Why not?

      “There was a paper on bullying rates in the UK. Pakistanis, Indians, and Bangladeshis all got bullied at similar rates. You can google that. And this is despite the fact that yes on average there will be a phenotypic difference between them. Yes Westerners can differentiate between very light and very dark S Asians and less and more caucasoid ones. But frankly, I don’t see this treatment differential at all man.”

      You know why this paper doesn’t prove anything, after all you deal with far more academically rigorous papers on a daily basis I’m sure, and as such can figure out why there are too many confounding factors that haven’t been controlled for in this study. But lets just say that without knowing exactly why this bullying occurred, and what castes/ethnicities were involved, and who it was doing the bullying, there is no way to come to a conclusion about whether race/ethnicity was the primary reason. And BTW, extrapolating this to the lived experience of South Asians of diverse racial and ethnic groups is completely wrong, again for reasons that you already know.

      BTW, the abstract of the paper you linked clearly states that the bullying was as likely from fellow Asians as it was from White British folks, and that most all of the bullying was due to religious and/or cultural reasons. It also states that not all children were bullied. Have you also considered that people that are purely West Asian like Zaha Hadid or purely European like Southern Italians would also be bullied for various reasons, including their appearance? (And Muslims and Italians have traditionally been victim to vicious other-ing and bullying and racism, even lynching in the Southern United States alone, not to mention other countries). In other words, that paper doesn’t really show us anything or prove anything about how different races and ethnicities of South Asians are treated by Europeans or MENA folks, controlling for culture, religion and socio-economic status.

      “I am glad you likely pass as white in america and didn’t face bullying. I am glad your whole family might be this way. But I wouldn’t generalize to these Birdaris. And also the “fake khatri,” “fake jatt,” “pseudo arain” type of claims get old when counter examples are shown of phenotypes. Especially large crowd pics of panchayats and riots where diversity is clear as day.”

      “White-passing” AKA Sanskritization is a well-known phenomenon in South Asia, particularly NW South Asia, so I’m not surprised to see this in practice. In this case again, unless you show me a paper that shows otherwise, one cannot come to a conclusion that shows that these non-Caucasian Jatts are truly who they claim to be, and are no different from the West Asian looking Jatts. But again, you seem to miss the larger point, the presence of any Jatts that look West Eurasian should be enough to refute common stereotypes about South Asians peddled by Americans and others. We also dont know who you are classifying as “tropical featured” vs “West Asian”, as I’ve already shown, such distinctions can be very subtle in some cases, owing to the ethnic nature of some West Asian faces, and also because many admixed NW South Asians share the bulk of their heritage with Jatts and can thus look very similar to them, but still not exactly like them.

      “I have nothing against you man. I like S Asian diversity and I want to help S Asians improve their image, especially the historically and currently vary disproportionally badly treated AASI people. But I just disagree with you on a fundamental facts of inter S Asian group dynamics and racial break downs.”

      I don’t know man, from this conversation I seem to get the feeling that you have been hurt in the past by certain rowdy NWners and as such are reluctant to see the bigger picture here, and to understand that our diversity in race is our strength. But I hope you can change with time. Thanks for being civil as well.

      1. I dislike people who supremacists. When it comes to S Asian groups, the proportion if supremacists has been highest in those groups, from what I’ve seen online and also on a softer level in real life. Btw, this sentiment is nonunique on brownpundits. My experiences are just quite different from yours. And we can all talk about confounders till the cows come home for data that goes against our narratives and claim “livid experiences” every which way.

        Regardless, I don’t think we are changing each other’s views anytime soon. I am just happy thia didn’t descend into some weird ad hominem contest. Those are fun, but they have gotten old on here. Fun talking bud. Wish you luck.

  29. I tend to agree with Warlock
    What Warlock is complaining about it True much more often than untrue. That kind of casual supremacy is not very uncommon in my experience too (thought it’s my tribe ppl who indulge in it). And IMO it’s not just NW thing.

  30. The boundary of who passes for as white in the West should be the Radcliffe line not the Durand line. cis-Radcliffe = white. trans-Radcliffe = brown 🙂

  31. BTW, to give you an idea about Turkish phenotypes, let me relate my observations on the phenotypes of my relatives in terms of passing. My father is Anatolian Turkish from central Anatolia and my mother is Balkan Turkish (half from northeastern Bulgaria and half from the Bulgarian border region of what is now Greek Macedonia). All my maternal relatives with no recent Anatolian Turkish or other West Asian admixture easily pass in Europe, they have European looks ranging from the Mediterranean varieties to the Nordic ones, with lots of Euro Alpine types as well (I do not like to use these largely outdated physical anthropological categories, just using them to give you an idea), which is expected given the largely native Balkan origins of Balkan Turks. As for my paternal relatives, I can broadly group them into three categories based on passing, listed based on frequency, and these can be generalized to Anatolian Turks in general: 1- those who pass primarily in West Asia and have a harder time passing in Europe; 2- those who more easily pass in Europe, some even much more in Europe than in West Asia; 3- those with clear Turanid traits and can thus pass in Central Asia, especially the southern parts with high West Eurasian ancestry. Sorry for the OT, will not write more on this topic, just wanted to share my observations as the subject was brought up in the comments to this thread.

    1. Turks have a good amount of people that pass as European, obviously a higher percentage than that found in NW South Asians. I agree with your observations regarding the appearances of Turkish people as well. A good minority look Nordic and would never pass in NW South Asia or even Iran, while a good majority have a rather West Asian-specific phenotype that passes well all through West Asia, and in NW South Asia among Jats/Khatris etc. and in Afghanistan among Pashtuns as well. Then there is the Turanid minority that only passes in Central Asia and parts of West Asia with significant Turkic admixture such as Azerbaijan, Turkey, parts of Iran, and parts of NW South Asia among the Turkic admixed castes. Finally, there is the Mediterranean phenotype that in itself has a range of appearances, some can pass both in West Asia and Europe (and to some extent in NW South Asia), and some fit in much better in Europe than in West Asia. Erdogan passes as NW South Asian Jatt with ease for instance. NW South Asians also have what can be described as a Slavic look in certain cases, just like some Turks, and this overlaps with some Eastern Europeans as well. BTW, there are also some Alpines present in NW South Asia, just like in Turkey. Great diversity indeed.

      I like Turkish people BTW, one of my parents’ best friends in their early years in the USA hailed from Turkey — the patriach was a very kind and well-mannered gentleman who loved feeding us large trays of Baklava over Turkish coffee and Meveli Lokum. His wife gifted us a Nazar Boncoglu to keep away the evil eye, as they were quite fond of my cute baby face 😉 I won’t give away their full name, but I can tell you their first names — Mehmet and Eylul. The entire family was more like the Paternal side of your own family, in that they had a rather West Asian appearance and as such, easily overlapped with the looks of NW South Asians like our family. They were also quite big fans of Bollywood, what was unusual was that they liked a rather peculiar actor named Shatrughan Sinha, who hails from Bihar in India, one of the most impoverished states. Apparently, Mr. Sinha was the object of adulation of many Turks in their generation. The wife also liked Shashi Kapoor quite a bit, and often compared me to him, haha.

      I will visit Istanbul sometime in the future, I plan to stay at a hotel overlooking the Bosphorus and apart from visiting the usual landmarks such as the Haghia Sophia and the Blue Mosque, indulge in some Turkish Baths/Spa treatments as well. How is the nightlife in Istanbul? Is there an international scene?

      1. During my first semester at my university in Austria, my roommate at the dorm was a Persian from Shiraz in Iran. He was working at a pizza shop. One of the staff members at the pizza shop was a Sikh from Indian Punjab, who was dark, but not so darker than the Khorasani Persian staff member from NE Iran in the same pizza shop. My Shirazi Persian roommate had a more general West Asian appearance, so not dark but not light either, I think his looks fit best in Iran in line with his Iranian origins, but he would easily pass in any other part of West Asia. The Khorasani Persian and the Punjabi Sikh would probably pass easiest in Arabia in West Asia, especially the Khorasani Persian due to his Mediterranean features. I have seen lighter NW Indians than the Punjabi Sikh, I do not take him as representative.

        Nightlife in Istanbul is pretty active and rich, it is a city that is awake 24/7 as its residents say. Beşiktaş, Beyoğlu and Kadıköy are especially famous districts for their nightlife, next I can name Bakırköy. The first three have many historical buildings too, like Fatih and Üsküdar.

      2. Speaking of Europeanness, today the term European has an unofficial and non-PC de facto definition (not saying it is the only definition, but a widely employed definition even if not an openly declared one): non-Muslim West Eurasian. By this definition, Muslims of European origin are non-European and non-Muslims of West Asian and even North African origin are European, genetics and looks have very little, if any, bearing on this definition of European beyond being West Eurasian or not. It is my guess that there will be more consolidation on this practical definition over time as a defense mechanism as Europe faces more Muslim immigration. Europe is dwindling in its native population and has a hard time assimilating Muslims (even native European Muslims) while it much more easily assimilates non-Muslims of West Asia and North Africa, so I expect that Europe will identify itself more and more based on this fault line. As for non-West Eurasian non-Muslims, those who pass by looks as West Eurasian like some NW South Asians and some southern Central Asians and are also non-Muslim can also be easily considered European by this definition. I am not saying I favor this definition, this is just what I observe as a general trend in Europe.

  32. The Swedish Arab Party is publicly advising Swedes who do not like migrants – to move out on their own (Google translated)

    SWEDEN is one of the strongholds of European liberalism and multiculturalism.

    And, it has already got its Arab party, which goes further than ethnic Swedes in understanding and applying liberalism and multiculturalism. In his own interest, of course.

    The Arab Party has just called on Swedes who do not value multiculturalism to renounce Swedish citizenship and leave the country!

    They announced on their official Facebook channel:

    “The Arab Party is asking all Swedes who do not accept the values of diversity to renounce their citizenship and leave the country. You have nothing to do here, your Sweden, which you would like to bring back, is gone forever! ”

    The Arab Party went a step further, perhaps crossing the Rubicon.

    She announced that she would work on the project “emigration for Swedes who do not like the situation in the country”.

    Moreover, he promises that all Swedes who are critical of immigration will be offered generous monetary compensation if they leave Sweden voluntarily.

    According to party secretary Krar Al-Hamede, this will enable more efficient immigration, as well as “lead to the unification of the country”:

    “If multiculturalism is not to someone’s liking, society can help them emigrate. We want to conclude agreements with countries that may be of interest to Swedes for resettlement, such as Poland, Thailand, New Zealand or other more homogeneous and less religious countries. “We see that many Swedes, especially pensioners, would like to move, but they cannot afford it, and we will help them,” Al-Hamede explained.

    The Arab Party is a new party. They plan to run in the 2022 parliamentary elections.

    1. @warlock
      I think Muslim Jatts are somewhat different from hindu/Sikh jatt neighbours genetically by having marginally more AASI and more IVC related ancestry and more importantly significant less steppe ancestry than their jatt neighbours(especially those who live in Northern Pakistan), Muslim Jatts of Central Punjab(Pakistan) have more steppe ancestry than Northern Pakistani Punjabi Jatts but have less steppe ancestry than Sikh Jatts.

      1. According to the harapaworld results the muslim jutt proporions weren’t very dissimilar to those of up brahmins. Idk how it came to be like that or if that maps to global25 values.

        1. @ DaThang
          I think AASI levels of Muslim Jatts are between Sikh Jatts and Up brahmins, IVC ancestry or Iran_N peaks in Muslim Jatts and Steppe percentage is identical to UP brahmins or a bit lower especially for Pothohar regions.

  33. Deepika is brahmin, so more Aryan, Ranvir is Sindhi , aren’t sindhi the least aryan and more IVC?

    actually, she is rare example of a darker female in her community, the GSB brahmins, whose male and females are lighter than the crowd around. they also have lighter eyeball shades.
    he father, prakash padukone, an indian badminton star and idol was very fair.

  34. @Girmit

    please reread my post. I never said tropical featured people shouldn’t respect themselves. I even said they should be their own advocates first. But more west eurasian members of NW crowd have the power in the image game in India and some enjoy throwing others under the bus in the West, when push comes to shove. I don’t like that behavior.

    And I really disagree about these massive phenotype diff comments. By reich numbers someone like me is what like 20% less west eurasian than even the most steppe shifted Hindu jats and 15% less than Sikh Jats with like 15% more ASI even on harrapa. These people are talking mestizo vs. full. It is quite ironic. Yes differences are there but it gets so overblown it is ridiculous.
    This is what I look like. People of that community have asked me if I am from it. I don’t really think they look as caucasian on average as is being promoted here. I look like a generic brown dude.

    https://i.imgur.com/NwOn3pG.jpg

    Btw, if we want to go full pseudoscience and look at old anthro books, more than just these birdari groups were classified as “caucasoid.”

    Regardless, I fully accept on average some groups look more West Eurasian. What I vehemently disagree with are the extent of their phenotypic ranges and the ranges of others and thus truly non significant overlap. There are more Jats I have seen in the NRC area who pass as generic N Indian than as some Near Easterners or Turks or Iranians or whatever is said here.

    1. Hindu jats and 15% less than Sikh Jats with like 15% more ASI even on harrapa. These people are talking mestizo vs. full.

      Caste has nothing to do with ‘latin american style racial classifications’

      Just because a Gujju Yadav like aditya pancholi is more white passing than most Haryanvi jaats, that doesn’t make him a Jaat in a caste sense.

      Similarly Haryanvi Jaat political scion Dushyant Chautala doesn’t become a Gujju yadav just because he looks brown.

      Indians care a lot about skin color, and want to be lighter etc.

      But I hadn’t heard of this Latin American racial categories stuff before, that is some 2nd gen identity issues.

      My theory is this stems from subcontinental people being profoundly uncool and white people being the dominant group in the West. You will want to differentiate to the extent that you can.

      I experienced this after 9/11 to an extent where I tried to differentiate Indians from Arabs because I was getting picked on, in my pred. white-jewish school so I understand the impulse.

      But I was a child back then, as a mature adult this stuff should be silly, but I see a lot of South Asian people engaging in this vis-a-vis other south asians.

      1. Yeah I think I responding to their odd paradigm more than anything else.

        They act like it’s a 90 10 West to East Eurasian paradigm for NW Birdari groups vs. typical N indian when it is really like 75-80 20 vs. 60 40. It is more Castizo vs. Harnizo but they misrepresent it like Peninsulares vs. Mestizo. I know analogy is imperfect but basically I am illustrating the exaggeration of difference between NW birdari and other non dalit N Indians that the former like to portray.

        But yes the paradigm is certainly imperfect in and of itself. But even if you were take it at face value, it still doesn’t work the way it is presented here.

        Btw this is all based on genotypic averages will tend to correlate with average phenotypes for large groups. And there is way more overlap in terms of phenotype than I think some people are comfortable with. Some I think stems from what you said, a fear of association with the low status AASI heavy Indian phenotype which is tagged with a bunch of bad streotypes in the West.

        1. @thewarlock
          I dont think people have a fear of association. This makes it seem like people are purposely trying to distance themselves for some prejudiced reason, when in reality, it is just a different racial identity that makes them different. Nikki Haley for instance wouldnt fear being associated with Sanjay Gupta. One looks fully Caucasian, the other a Harnizo Latino. For Americans and everyone else, the difference is pretty striking and obvious.

          In my experience, (and you’ve seen what I look like, along with my family members) NW South Asia is like Latin America in this sense, where you have Punjabis and Harynavis that look like Indigenous Indians, all the way to Mestizos, Harnizos, Castizos and Criollos. The only difference is, most NW South Asians are either Mestizos or Harnizos phenotypically. The Castizos are uncommon, and the Criollos are rare and limited to certain NW tribes like the Jatts, Khatris, Pandits, Kambojas, etc.

          Makes sense, because Hindu Jatts and Rors, Khatris, etc are super-rare in the Indian population. If you add up the Criollo population of NW India, including Hindu and Sikh Jatts, Khatris and other small NW tribes, you barely make up 2% of the entire population of India. Of course Criollos are still not like Peninsulares, as they are not as relatively genetically “pure” as Peninsulares are, but they look identical to Peninsulares in their phenotype and racial affinities. In our case, Peninsulares dont even exist anymore as well, as they all migrated to South Asia after leaving their homelands. Therefore, these Criollos are really the only living representative of these people that still exists.

          Its no surprise then that these people are so rarely seen, especially here in the West where most NRI people hail from South, East and West India. We are all proud Bharatiyas, our phenotypical and racial differences make us unique but we are still united in a cultural and religious sense. Of course we also share AASI and other traits, but these traits are a part of the global sphere in terms of East and West Eurasian as well. So it is really culture and historical connections and religion that make us unique on a Global PCA of genetic diversity. Its also what gives us a larger group identity. Otherwise, we are just part of the Eurasian cline as members of the great Eurasian club.

  35. The term west Eurasian is used too liberally. The Iran component could end up being like 50% basal Eurasian which is more different from West Eurasian than east Asians are.

    1. @DaThang

      The thing is, all modern West Eurasians have Basal Eurasian admixture, so it is today a constituting element of West Eurasianness.

        1. @DaThang

          Irrespective of whatever West Eurasian “purity” we are talking about, the Basal Eurasian admixture has made West Eurasians more distinctive and sui generis on a global scale than before. They were genetically closer to East Eurasians before that.

          1. Which is exactly why I am making a distinction between west Eurasian proper and modern inhabitants of west Eurasia who have basal Eurasian. If basal Eurasian wasn’t there, west Eurasians would be west Eurasian proper. I think that this basal came from somewhere in Arabia, expanding about 30,000 years ago, and by 15,000 years ago was most heavily concentrated in eastern Arabia-eastern Iran region. I think that eastern Iran is the source of the Iran component in south Asia.

            Anyway, all of this is somewhat unexpected since thewarlocke’s theory used to be (still is?) steppe : aasi proportion. Maybe he changed it.

  36. @ onur,
    do you still have people with mongolian face cuts? i was in istanbul almost 15 years back, and could not see any one like that.

        1. @Brown

          Yes, as the average East Eurasian ancestry in modern Turkey is less than 10%. It is normal since the Turkic conquerors, who came to what is now Turkey with about 45-50% average East Eurasian ancestry according to the ancient genome results, constituted a minority in what is now Turkey and over time their blood diluted as a result of mixing with the much more numerous Christian natives they conquered, Turkified and Islamized facilitated through their control of the state and the army and the subjugation of non-Muslims by turning them into a kind of second class citizens with higher taxes (dhimmitude), stimulating their conversion to Islam.

          1. So, about 20% migrant ancestry, which is about as much as the mlba migrant ancestry in north Indian general castes. Somewhat analogous.

          2. @DaThang

            Yes, also close to the amount of the average European ancestry of the Africans Americans in the US. Though in that case African ancestors are also immigrant.

          3. In terms of ancestry, yes. But the African American analogy would be closer if the west Africans themselves also had 20% European ancestry. Like people who derive 80% from the place where their ancestors lived for thousands of years. Another case would be some Latino countries with more of the native ancestry. And maybe Arab ancestry in north Africans.

    1. mongolian face cuts

      Face cut, quite common usage in Sri Lanka, English, Sinhalese and Tamil.

      Means facial features.
      I am starting to wonder about Brown, ex Sri Lankan ?

      mangolian looks, as the original turks were mangolian.

      Mangolian like a Pangolian. Some one is playing games.

    1. Sorry but you are just salty that you are not Pashtun or a Jaat (not even a Jatt with their 2ppt higher AASI)

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