” There are a lot of thinking people who would argue, on policy, both that the government is wrong and the farmers’ position might not be tenable in its entirety. Neither the government’s nor the farmers’ position addresses the long-term challenges of the environment. But equally, the government’s position does not address the real long-term issues of precarity in the agriculture sector.
You claim you were ready to compromise, put the Bills in abeyance. But that will not be enough for two reasons. You denied standing to those who disagreed; they were the ground on which allegiances were tested, not policy debated. It is abundantly clear the changes Indian agriculture requires cannot be done within the framework of these Bills. The only way to move forward is to repeal the bills and start from first principles. You will get new allies and a better outcome.”
India’s foremost liberal commentator on farm laws. ?
BJP needs a vajpayee type of smooth talker more than ever
Does someone have a clubhouse invite? Lots of interesting discussions on economics, history and genetics that I’d like to listen in to but currently missing out on. Let me know! ?
Rihanna Fenty Beauty brand under lens in India for ‘using mica from mines hiring child labour’
Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones at others
Dude, everybody in the internet era lives in a glass house (in more ways than one). All that matters is (1) how much attention your house attracts and (2) how many people you can muster to throw stones at another’s.
mistake of vajpayee, smooth talk over hard power, mistake of modi,only hard power and no place for diplomacy.
I don’t know what could be more diplomatic than giving in to almost all farmer demands and treating the tractor rally in the capital with kid gloves.
That is after they protested, diplomacy works best before. Find out who will be the most resistant to change and bring them over first.
You folks know about this guy, Balaji Viswanathan? He primarily posts on Quora, and is quite brilliant and insightful. He’s the CEO of his own robotics company and is well versed in literally everything. Check him out at: https://www.quora.com/profile/பாலாஜி-விஸ்வநாதன்-Balaji-Viswanathan
“What do Rihanna, Greta Thunberg and Vice President Kamala Harris’s niece, Meena Harris, have in common? They’re all rallying support for India’s farmer protests, which are morphing from an arcane domestic dispute into an emotive international cause. And they’re all mostly wrong in their thinking. …
“There’s nothing wrong with celebrities taking an interest in events half a world away. But when it comes to the farmer protests, celebrity Twitter activism is based on a reductive caricature of complex issues as a faceoff between colorfully turbaned sons of the soil and a thuggish government backed by evil corporations.
“If you dig into the details, the moral questions become less clear. Protesting farmers may have understandable fears about their futures, but they come mostly from a relatively privileged minority who benefit from an unsustainable procurement system set up more than 50 years ago. …”
Came across this trailer for an Indo-African rom com (Indian guy, Nigerian girl).
TBH I have never seen any Indian person dating a black person in real life, though I am sure there would be some.
For Netflix to be chasing this kind of demographic, they must really have exhausted all other combinations.
I do hope Indians start taking more interest in Africa.
I’m sure you know this, but Kamala Harris’ parents are Black & Indian.
I think Black & Indian marriages are somewhat more common in the Caribbean, although I’ve also heard that there are sometimes tensions between Indians and Blacks, particularly in Guyana.
But yea, beyond that, it’s not all that common, esp given some Indians’ prejudices toward Black people (not sure if Black people have prejudices against Indians, but wouldn’t be surprised… see Uganda, Guyana).
A marriage probably in the 1900’s, a Barbadian (Educated in England) was a judge in Ceylon married to Ceylon Burgher/Eurasian. One of the daughters Estelle Roberts was my mothers (Peace BeeBee) classmate. https://photos.app.goo.gl/wWozVCoEP8qS24zf7
Classmate who was radio officer married a Somali and they both lived in Sri Lanka
Classmates son (they live in US) married to an african american
I have dated a few African Americans while living in the US
over the last 6 months BP is now consistently getting more traffic from india than the usa…
can become big. conversations that dont get heard on mainstrem can become a bridge to better understanding.
google ‘dougla’
about 20% of trinidad’s population is mixed indian black
Chili isn’t Trinidadian (I believe her father is from Bangladesh and her mother is American Black), but yes, she is fairly representative of the look.
You forget arguably the most famous example: Nicki Minaj. Although more specifically, her father is a Dougla, her mother is Afro-Trinidadian.
I myself am of Dougla descent, though more Indian than African. One of my great-grandmothers was a true Trinidadian Dougla.
Thanks Indo-Carib for the link.
Some of the photos rhyme with the Sri Lankan look.
When in the US, I almost never mistook Indians for Sri Lankans.
Often mistook Trinidadians etc for Sri Lankans
This is a foodie video of Lankan restaurants in Staten Island, NY
The narrator, Skiz Fernando is Sri Lankan too. Skiz says he is pure Sinhalese, all I can say is hmm
For those who want to see India’s economic differential vis-a-vis Pakistan in terms of their sub-regions. You probably had some inkling about the differential but it is bigger than you think. Quite big! There is a vast gulf – the below video shows a time lapse from 1970 to 2020 on how the regions fared –
To put in perspective, Kerala in 1970 was already bigger than the economy of Balochistan. Today Kerala’s GDP is bigger than all of Pakistan minus Punjab. By 2030, Kerala will outstrip Pakistan.
Today Tamilnadu’s GDP is bigger that of Pakistan with only one third of its population. Big brother Maharashtra is playing in another league.
The difference is stark – we are going to enter a period of flux before the end of this decade. No entity within the Westphalian framework can survive this level of power differential without coping mechanisms (trade bridge, peace treaties, vassal status etc).
I think China colonizing Pak will be good. They will run the country better than the radical islamists and their corrupt zamindar panderers would. Ideally, market minded leaders, who are anti military industrial complex controlling everything, rise up there. For now, China’s strong guiding hand, despite there for an unequal bargain, is still better than the likely status quo.
No. All China wants is to suck Pakistan dry of it’s resources , be it’s consumer for it’s industrial products,supplier of raw materials and where Chinese capital can be invested on terms set by China, and China can give ‘loans’ to pakistan at exorbitant rates. In return China will support Pakistan in it’s attempt to grab Indian territory, and pakistan will keep quiet about China’s minorities like Uyghurs
In other words colonise Pakistan economically.
VijayVan
I assume you have heard of the Colombo Harbor East Container Terminal spat with India. SL has decided not to lease to India/Japan consortium.
India has ended the Swap agreement with SL.
Also a clause to get IMF backing to extend the Swap.
That seemed a odd clause because India and IMF are not really buddy buddies.
Then realized India is part of the Quad.
So maybe India game plan maybe to get IMF to force ECT to India.
Then the Quad directly or indirectly has a foothold in SL
Sbarrkum
India is cautious about Quad, rightly so. India has not been part of military alliances after 1947 so it is cautious. Even 5 year from now, can’t be sure about India’s entanglement in Quad. Indian foreign office is always suspicious about US intentions
The Chinese loans carry a significantly lower interest rates than the Paris Club and other loans from multilateral parties that still form the majority of Pakistan’s external debt. Not only that, the Chinese usually rollover these loans and are very flexible, the same cannot be said of other Western creditors. Chinese economic influence in Pakistan has had a net positive affect, they have collaborated in building and modernizing road, rail, port and power infrastructure in Pakistan that has already started yielding positive dividends will continue doing so in the near future. The power crisis of the 2010’s that decimated the textile industry is mostly a thing of the past. I don’t see any security concerns either, Pakistani establishment is good at playing both sides and any future Chinese threat can be easily countered by shifting the balance back towards the West.
I fail to see any downsides for Pakistan in its close cooperation with China both on the economic and military front.
Exactly. Pak will run bettrer under Xi.
S Qureishi
Same can be said of China Lanka relations.
Low rates some outright grants, infrastructure development.
More specially, no strings like privatizing national institutions, austerity measures etc
I can attest to that. The state of the roads and infra in Colombo that was Chinese made was much better than anything in Indian cities. The highways in SL that I traveled on (Colombo- Jaffna, Jaffna – Trinco) were smooth and spotless. And Jaffna itself was genteel and peaceful, with great roads and construction activity (the odd bombed out building that I expected was very rare but could still be seen). Chinese infra construction is nothing but a boon to these nations, and can only lead to positives.
The Chinese loans carry a significantly lower interest rates than the Paris Club….
Chinese debt agreements come with several parts – a loan agreement and a concessional agreement. If you are referring to the “sticker price”, you are correct. But if you look at the concessions – they have a discounted value that totally alters the overall picture.
Many of the concessionary side-agreements are opaque and are not released to the debtor country’s public for consumption. For most African countries and Asian low income countries like Pakistan, Srilanka – the Chinese have not offered portfolio debt (sovereign bonds) but direct loans. Which means that the repayment is backed by a collateral (minerals, mining rights or land FTA). Look at Page 38 in the below document.
If it is not clear yet, the Chinese are “exporting capital”, not providing sovereign loans. There is a world of difference between the two. It is not a free lunch.
I think you are naive to think that there is no ‘concessional value’ provided to Western creditors on top of the exorbitant interest rates they also happen to charge that stifles growth and condemns those countries to prolonged periods of stagnation and poverty. Their system is designed to make these loans stay on the country’s balance sheet while the actual funds are siphoned off by the corrupt elite back to Western banks and institutions, all the while collecting interest and receiving political concessions. Just take a look at where the elite in all developing countries stash their money.
China actually builds infrastructure on the ground, that promotes growth. I don’t see what is wrong in exporting their surplus capital. Perhaps the bidding process is not opaque, but things get made, as opposed to the previous creditors where most funds were lost to corruption. This debt trap diplomacy allegations have been circling for years now, mostly by American think tanks with ties to the American security establishment that seek to discredit the Chinese. The results however speak a different story.
In any case, Pakistan is clearly benefiting from the Chinese, which is why the full tilt towards them in the last few years and the results on the ground are visible to us.
@ S Quereshi
You are wilfully ignorant.
In case of sovereign debt, if the debtor cannot pay up – the lender takes a haircut. For the debtor – their credit ratings take a dive. The next loan will have higher interest rates. So this system works with transparently set rates and insolvency declarations.
For the credit lines that China is offering – it is always against a concession. In case the debtor cannot pay, the lender will seize assets earmarked for such eventualities. So you are only mortgaging your family jewels for some cash that you are anyway going to pay interest on.
In the case of sovereign debt, the lender is also interested in the investment model because he is going to take a haircut in case of failure. So they insist on actions (austerity programs) that will mitigate risk for them.
But China is a pawnbroker – they don’t care where you are going to take their money and put it in. They even take concessions in bidding for inflated turnkey contracts to build that asset. So they make money thrice – in interest payments, in executive contracts to build it and also if the asset model fails. Finest piece of shylocking I have ever seen!!
@Ugra
You should look up what happened to Argentina when they refused to pay and defaulted on their sovereign bonds. They aren’t still out of it and the country, which was one of the richest and most industrialized is now perpetually bankrupted with no relief in sight. Creditors don’t take a haircut, they get their pound of flesh and all the ‘concessions’ and ‘assets’ along with the higher interest rates.
As I said, the difference is just cosmetics. If you think the global monetary system is not rigged to favor a few players, then it is not me who is being willfully ignorant.
The Chinese lending model is working for many countries that know the alternative is much much worse.
@ S Qureishi
Haha….you chose the exact example I wanted to show. Argentina defaulted to be confronted with years of currency and fiscal crisis’s. But they did not lose any sovereignty. The debt was restructured to fit a newer schedule – Argentines actually met the targets by late 2006. Debt-trap diplomacy is a reality – ask the Tajiks. What you say may be a matter of perspective. The perennial debtor is always shilled by shiny offerings.
I am not sure how you define ”met targets”. Repaying the IMF does not mean anything, Argentina is currently seeking a $44billion bailout from the IMF, last year it had a run on its banks..
The fundamental issues were never resolved, Western creditors and vulture hedge funds did not take a haircut for their bad investments in Argentina, and even after 2006, Argentina’s external debt has ballooned, it’s deficits up, state assets privatized and cannibalized, and the country is facing another sovereign debt crisis. It’s a shining example of how to bleed one of the richest countries on the planet dry. Not sure how this is better than what China is doing (taking over the reigns of building productivity increasing infrastructure themselves)
Besides, at least for Pakistan, there is little to worry about Sovereignty. Sovereignty is guaranteed by the military, not gold.
Agree with Sbrakkum and Quereshi here. No amount of hand gesturing by Quad/West will help Sri Lanka or Pakistan unless they are willing to put their money where the mouth is. And China is the only country willing or was willing to invest when the chips were down.
Indias joining up with IMF (because of Quad) affiliation, makes sense if you read article below.
Also SL refused a US, Millennium Challenge Corp aid/grant of 400million. Even though the US kept pushing to give it/SL accept it.
===========================
Final question: these austerity and anti-labor policies which the IMF imposes on countries of the global South seem to be well known practices from before the IMF was created, from what you’ve discussed. Did the IMF invent anything new? In addition, in the 19th century, was predatory lending something common, or was direct invasion always the go-to method for subjugating a territory?
Prof Hudson
The 19th century was really the golden age of industrial capitalism. Countries wanted to invest to make a profit. They didn’t want to invest in dismantling an existing industry, because there wasn’t much industry to dismantle. They wanted to make profit by creating industry. There was a lot of investment in infrastructure, and it almost always lost money. For instance, there was recently a criticism of China saying, “Doesn’t China know that the Panama Canal went bankrupt again and again, and that all the investments in canals and the railroads all went broke again and again?” Of course China knows that. The idea is that you make investment not to make a profit on basic large infrastructure. The 19th century was basically inter-state lending, inter-governmental lending, public sector lending. That’s where the money was made. The late 20th century was one of financialization, dismantling the industry that was already in place, not lending to create industry to make a profit. It’s asset-stripping, not profit-seeking.
That’s what I meant by vassal state. Chinese mercantilist attitudes are quite exploitative – they already show that in every continent. They are going to sink their incisors deep into Pakistan’s sinews. On the other hand, they might throw them under the bus also.
I pointed out Kerala as a illustration to show that even Indian Communism has a leg up over Islamicate/Sharia systems in perceiving societal problems and figuring out sustainable solutions. Kerala went all out in land reform and universal education during the EMS years. They dismantled rent seeking structures and really figured out ways to make people understand their basic entitlements. I have myself dissed some of Kerala’s mechanisms in the past but I am going to put a line in my diary from now on.
Many YT channels bordering on promoting Nordic supremacy use the IE to promote their agenda. Indians having been opposing AIT give away an opportunity to make broader connection to the IE traditions and Vedic ones.
The fact that the “Sintashta were swarthy” need to promoted heavily. The Nordic supremacy YT channels need to be countered.
I did say this in a different way. Yamnaya R1b (today’s ‘westerners’) were not white. They became white when they came in contact with Vincha (I1/I2) people in Europe. So as the original Greeks, who were neither white nor spoke ‘Indo-European’ language.
In the thread: ”The great drama…”, Phy says – ‘From a historic perspective, it is whites who did terrible things to others. And many who recall history fall for the fact of being white as in itself a category of somehow being bad reinforced by actual racists in present world.’
Accordingly, considering the above, the previous quotation is equivalent to what I said before – ‘R1b (who originally were not whites!) started almost all wars in last 5000 years and conducted many genocides since they first came from Russian steppes to Europe’.
One historian writing about Vincha, said anecdotally (I will write about this more extensively) that – “In Vincha lived the last good people”, alluding that that they did not experienced any war for 2000 years before Yamnaya and had achieved the highest levels of technology, arts, architecture and social organisation. After that started a chain of wars and conquerings which did not stop until today.
Also, so as we said that the term ‘Indo-European’ is meaningless, we can say the same for the term ‘Caucasian’, which is used only in US and adopted from the Bible.
LOL, the (video on IE) comments sections shows that seemed to have completely ignored the “swarthy” skin color part and selectively focusing on ~ 25% blue eye color.
eNeM, there is something for you to focus while listening one old Serbian from 1971:
PS. Someone asked me about this old Serbian singer (he is still alive). For music lovers, there is another song from him performed alive 40 years after its recording (in 2014). The song’s name is ‘Odysseya’ (which means an endless life quest and journey). Of course, the seasoned pundits already know that Odyssey himself was a Serbian ancient traveler who was for 20 years returning from the battle for Troy.
The singer at that time had a world tour with other famous world singers – Mireille Mathieu, Dusty Springfield, Tom Jones, Engelbart Humperdinck. In addition, pundits can notice for 2 seconds an Indian violinist playing in orchestra.
The translation of the song – “Odysseya”
Way to fame and fortune, way to the throne
It was always the same from the beginning
The road to hell and abyss, the road to debacle
It was always the same from the beginning
No one knows what will happen, what to expect
Yesterdays leaves us a trail in the hair
The past and the future, the same story
Everything that shines ain’t always gonna be gold
Odyssey, odyssey, the path of thorns or the path of orchids
Odyssey, odyssey, life is just a new odyssey
… and for your perusal”
Rig Veda Mandala 2, Hymn 12
“Even the Heaven and Earth bow down before him, before his very breath the mountains tremble.
Known as the Soma-drinker, armed with thunder, who wields the bolt, He, O ye men, is Indra.”
Amusing thread all around. The commentors don’t realize that they are just as hateful and delusional as the people they are criticizing.
If India is serious about power projection then it needs to stop doing business deals through Western-controlled institutions like the IMF. Ideally, set up your own banking infrastructure like China did with AIIB. India now has foreign exchange reserves around 600 billion dollars, and still rapidly rising. Why not start with a capital base of around 100 billion USD and then start lending it out to countries in exchange for geopolitical favours?
As for Pakistan, it is untrue that China’s loans are predatory. Their interest rates are typically quite low. However, it is very telling that China is now dragging its feet to give out new loans to Pakistan.
The Chinese have gotten smarter and understood the game that Pakistanis play. They are trying to play both sides off each other and just gobble up more loans, which is inevitably going to the local oligarchs and feudal landlords. So Beijing is now starting to sit this one out. World Bank is going to demand tougher conditions. IMF is already demanding that Pakistan let its exchange rate be free.
It’s a country that is basically a black hole that just sucks resources. I always felt it was way overestimated in international affairs and Beijing is now coming to that conclusion, too. Use it as a hedge against India, yes, but free-for-all subsidies are coming to an end.
Indians should stop Pakistani obsession and instead compare ourselves to China – a worthy rival. Even the richest of India’s small states is barely at the same level as China’s poorest. Let’s fix that.
I really wish there was a vocal section of India’s left that pushed for universal education and large scale labour intensive growth. Instead we have petty union netas and idiotic culture warriors.
The right is weirdly obsessed with playing some intractable 4D chess games while the demographic dividend withers away.
Let’s fact it, Hindus don’t have a unified cultural&national consciousness yet. We’re all insular AF in our Castes&States. Indians just don’t have a unified cultural&historical narrative to rally behind besides “Fuck Pakistan”, and even that rhetoric has its limits.Most South&NE Indians don’t give a damn about Pakistan or the “Muslim Problem”.
“I really wish there was a vocal section of India’s left that pushed for universal education and large scale labour intensive growth”
Indian Right already does that with its Socialist policies, its just that the quality of Govt Healthcare&Education in India remains dogshit due to a lack of funding,manpower&redtape. As far as labour intensive growth is concerned, the Infra&political will just isn’t there. If there was ever a chance to take advantage of demographic dividend, we’re already missed it. Calling it a “demographic disaster” is more apt. India should start investing in block chains and A.I, IT Sector is the only goddamn silver lining we got.
Your statement about South India is laughably wrong.
Laughably Wrong, eh? Tell me, who in Tamil Nadu and Kerala worries about “The Muslim Problem”? I must’ve missed them.
” The Justin Trudeau government in Canada has finally woken up to death threats to Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Indian consul general at Vancouver made by pro-Khalistan separatists on January 26 and provided armed guard security to top Indian diplomats in Ottawa and Vancouver on Saturday.
In a diplomatic note to Canadian foreign ministry, the Indian high commission on February 2 informed that one Inderjit Singh Bains made death threats against Prime Minister Modi on January 26 outside the Vancouver consul general office and posted on the Facebook account of fellow separatist Narinder Singh Khalsa.
The letter from Indian high commission to Canadian foreign ministry makes it amply clear that death threats to the Indian Prime Minister constitutes an act of terrorism and requested that the matter should be thoroughly investigated and the action should be taken against the individuals to mitigate any security risk posed.”
good video on the Canada situation and their hypocrisy of supporting such measures when complaining to the WTO but then turning around and now supporting the middle man riot and caste agitation
Just LMFAO. Pak diaspora is about 10x better than Indian one at PR games.
I speculate that in the long run, India and the US will most likely experience severe ideological conflicts. The American elites are the descendants of Macauley, however they want to convert India and its elites towards American rather than British values. Look at Afghanistan to see exactly how successful that’s been.
The most important aspect of the last 3 decades in India are arguably the rise of Hindu nationalism and increasing displacement of Nehruvian values in both theory and practice as economic liberalisation and the growing wealth of India has led to confidence in indigenous Indian values. This caused an increasing rejection of liberal Western values and the universalism that underpins those values.
The core doctrine of Hindu nationalism as espoused by Savarkar is modernisation without Westernisation,. The failures of the West in the past two decades have made it a fair less appealing model.
The only people who hate American lecturing and self righteousness on human rights more than than Chinese elites are Indian elites. I have no doubt, future govs and probably the current Biden administration will use the tools of the American state to push for liberal western values in Bharat.
Unfortunately for them, India’s political and ideological elite are increasingly moving towards various forms of Hindu nationalism in a clear rejection of Ambedkar and Nehru.
Modi will not be replaced by a Brown Trudeau or Macron type. The current conflicts the Indian government has with Twitter offer a small taste of what to come in the coming decades as Indian elites aim to reverse 1757 and push for a neo Dharmic state as a replacement to and alternative to the liberal western model.
Ram mandir may be viewed in future history textbooks as the moment India made a definitive break with liberal western values to pursue its own path to modernity and wealth.
Certainly, long term readers of razib have seen him grow more and more disillusioned with western liberalism particularly in the US as it devolves into some sort of oligarchic neo tribal deconstructionist nightmare.
Perhaps India’s elites will pay some lip service to liberal values for the next decade or two, but I speculate we will eventually see Indian leaders who fully reject John Locke in favour of Sanatana Dharma.
We’re entering a century where non western conceptualisations of modernity are increasingly becoming less abstract and more concrete.
> the rise of Hindu nationalism and increasing displacement of Nehruvian values in both theory and practice as economic liberalisation and the growing wealth of India has led to confidence in indigenous Indian values
I am not convinced. If the BJP loses power (strong chances, what with all the protests that are going on), everything will go back to square one. The elites will come back with a vengeance.
For all desis running on the greencard-hamster-wheel, pay attention to oncoming traffic.
35% of all US dollars in existence have been printed in (the last) 10 months.
Now this is the kind of alarmist headline hunting tweet, every social butterfly wants to make on her feed. But the underlying sentiments and facts can be vouched for. Go to the St. Louis Fed website and check their time series for M1 supply. The tweet actually underestimates the explosive growth in 2020.
There cannot be a happy ending to this – macro-economically there will be severe consequences for world trade and comparative advantages. Some countries are going to sink and some are going to float. Just keep looking out for the sake of yourselves – the hamster wheel might make an unscheduled stop at the Weimar Republic.
This is on the heels of Polish (and soon Hungarian) anti-censorship laws for right-wingers. Are we going to see anything similar in India? Or is Modi too scared?
Joe Biden, the New Brezhnev
The emerging Biden doctrine suffers from the same problem, however, as the Brezhnev Doctrine did half a century ago. Each act of resistance – and there will be many in the years to come – undermines the hegemon’s credibility and self-confidence. After the Prague Spring was extinguished in 1968, and just beneath the drab surface of the reality of life under Communism, anti-Sovietism was rampant all over Eastern Europe. Back then, and for almost two decades thereafter, members of the Politburo were old, sluggish, devoid of ideas, and oblivious to the challenges their hegemony would soon face.
In contrast, America’s current neoconservative-neoliberal duopoly, back in power under the Biden-Harris regime, is neurotically hyperactive and still convinced that global hegemony can be reimposed as a morally mandated, open-ended, and self-justifying mission. This is madness. Leonid Brezhnev and his Politbureau comrades were dull and dumb, but by the late 1980’s they were rational enough to grasp that it was time to fold. Their contemporary heirs in Washington are insane, and therefore they will never go into that gentle night without a bang. But, there is hope. Quos deus vult perdere, dementat prius (Those whom God would destroy, He first deprives of reason).
“Senate approves bill mandating Arabic be taught in all Islamabad schools”
Less-Muslim region trying to catch up to Alpha-Muslim region.
It seems (based on cursory Twitter reading) that the military is consolidating ever more power in Pakistan with or without the connivance of Imran Khan’s “selected” government. Can Pakistanis (Syed?) confirm if this perception is true?
Perhaps Pakistan could do better under a military regime modeled on China’s communist state. Having single-minded focus on the economy with no distractions of elections, being able to make tough decisions and inflict near to medium term pain for long-term gains are all much more feasible under a (soft) dictatorship than under the tyranny of elections. China has proven this model, and so did other military regimes in Asia (Korea etc). We know that the military is corrupt, but so are civilian politicians, and CCP leaders, but would they be more effective? Sharad Pawar is known to be among the most corrupt politicians in India but even his detractors agreed that he was good for business. The same could apply in this case too. If somehow we could guarantee that Pakistan would become a middle income country in 25 years under a military regime would that be such a bad thing?
This would not work for India for many reasons including the mind boggling amount of diversity across caste, religion, region, language and race, and our unique path since independence (vs. Pakistan’s experience and tolerance /celebration of several military regimes). So really, just interested in hearing what folks of such a model for Pakistan.
” In some respects, they are doomed by the very nature of storytelling. A story is more farce than anthropology because of its two requirements—plot movement and entertainment. The moral arc is the easiest way to move a story, and the triumph of the underdog is a combination of movement and entertainment. The triumph of morality and of the underdog are not truths of the world, but two powerful plot devices that the world has forgotten are plot devices. In the face of such devices, the strong and the successful are no match for the lamenters. The strong always tell bad stories.
Also, the party has the talent of preaching to the converted, but not to the rest. Any priest can preach to converts, but it takes a prophet to convert. An organization of priests will naturally make it hard for prophets to rise.One of the reasons why strongmen have risen to power around the world is that intellectuals have become so despicable that even when they make sense, people doubt sense itself. This works the other way round, too. To a section of people in India and elsewhere, the BJP is such a cultural villain that they wish to believe the very opposite of what the party says is good for the nation.”
The pandemic seems done for for now in Delhi.
Took my mom to the hospital for an ultrasound today. So much crowd and little social distancing. The Covid wards are still fairly empty.
Hoping it stays this way ??
Thanks man for some good news. My parents have grown really restless with stays at home and all, and are planning a trip to Kashmir and Shimla. Even though I am vehemently against it. Don’t know if I can convince them to stay back till they get vaccinated.
Saurav/Prats, have you guys been advising your parents on which vaccine to take? We’ve got paralysis by analysis with mine, I’m wondering if either of the available two are better than waiting for moderna.
I am waiting for efficacy numbers for India to be released. Would have defaulted to AstraZeneca but the new results on the South African strain have put that decision on hold.
Also keep hearing from our acquaintances who are ‘in the know’ in the medical community that the Bharat Biotech vaccine is actually superior. I need to investigate this further.
The Novavax vaccine is also supposed to be available widely in the summer.
Was talking to a friend who is a neuro in the US but originally from India about the AZ and Bharat Biotech vaccines available in India. He expressed a mild preference for the AZ one, however would take BB if AZ was not readily available. According to him BB is a “copy” of the AZ vaccine and therefore low risk. He has recommended to his parents that they take the vaccine that is available as soon as it is available to them.
Unfortunately vaccine is another area where i am even more helpless wrt to my parents. Downsides of staying away from parents, i guess.
They are hell bent on getting whatever vaccine comes first out of the door, so that they dont have to stay home.
What is the proportion of Hindus among recent migrants from India to Canada?
Right now the number of Sikhs and Hindus in Canada is almost equal. I wonder how the politics there will evolve as this balance changes over the next decade.
I think Sikhs still outnumber Hindus for now. Though immigration from other areas have increased, over the years. From the right ‘Hindu’ areas i mean. Not the ‘woke’ Hindu areas. 😛
The politics might evolve on the same lines of the US though. First gen conservative, second gen Woke-max.
“The politics might evolve on the same lines of the US though.”
I feel like groups can maintain their cultures better in Canada than in the US. Probably because it is still a small country so the pressure to assimilate is relatively less. They also seem to have really bought into ‘multi-culturalism’ – something the rest of the west is moving away from.
This is just the view of an outsider based on observing folks I know who’ve moved to the two countries.
Someone more intimately familiar with the place can give a better idea.
Anti-cow bill passes in Karnataka. With Saurav’s link to news from Pakistan that they are implementing mandatory Arabic in their schools, we now see two divergent paths despite both societies being quite religious. One is importing a non-native language for reasons related to an identity crisis and the other is protecting animals. Which one is healthier?
I would not put that stark of a difference though. Both regions are trying to ape the ‘best practices’ of a more Hindu/Muslim region. Dont think Karnataka has any history of cow-slaughter and all. Only regions which pushed cow slaughter in the first round around the 60s and 70s like MP, UP etc are the ones which had this attachment to cows and stuff.
…ape the ‘best practices’ of a more Hindu region..
Still peddling your nonsense, huh. In many ways, this is the quintessential “lout-style-thinking” that marxists employ to reduce social problems to monochrome. In reality though, Indian marxists have reduced the cow slaughter problem to a savarna obsession with “culture over economics”. At least they make a well rounded rhetorical argument. You, on the other hand, merely insinuate all the time with no cogent explanation. I guess this is the furthest you can exert.
Its alright. I perhaps present a more crude way, of what essentially are the ground realities of India. Perhaps a more sophisticated person (as you said Marxists ) would present a well rounded version.
Nothing much would change though. Both will result in the same end set.
Its crude, I agree. But the reality is only in your head! 🙂
principia@
Karnataka’s both cultivator castes Lingayats in northern part and Vokkaligas in southern part of the State are devotees of Shiva(linga). Nandi in the form of a Bull is also worshipped along with Shivalinga. That coupled with Lingayath emphasis on vegetarianism means that the population is generally supportive of a ban on cow slaughter.
Shiva + Bull worship is believed to have started during IVC times. The 12 Jyotirlingas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyotirlinga) are considered the holiest places for Shaivism apart from the many Kuldevatas temples (Khandoba, Jotiba, Veerbhadra etc) who are also considered incarnations of Shiva. 9 of the 12 Jyotirlingas are in peninsular India. I don’t think I am the first one to suggest a correlation between IVC shifted population(s) and Shiva(linga) worship. I am not familiar with Tamil/Dravidian politics but we may be mistaking anit-brahmanism with anti-hindu. One can oppose brahmin domination and still be Hindu. I am using Hindu as a broader term for anyone following the native religious traditions of India which includes a tolerance of each other. Some sub-groups want to claim themselves to be more hindu to claim leadership and attendant rent-seeking opportunities.
‘I am not familiar with Tamil/Dravidian politics but we may be mistaking anit-brahmanism with anti-hindu.”
Old trick from Dravidian/Commie playbook. Once the Brahmin is neutralized, the next target will be the second in line Hindu caste. So on and so forth. And this is coming from someone who is not even Brahmin.
Who would know better than us (OBCs) ? When we were voting against the BJP in the 90s for commies/socialist, we were lionized as the rearguard of Secularism. When we started voting for BJP, we now are demonized as foot soldiers of Hindu right.
Saurav, the non-brahmin experience may be sufficiently different in Karnataka in that a monastic framework is very robust and long-standing among lingayats and vokkaligas. Its not a situation where cutting off the head (brahmins), kills the beast, as it may be up north. Furthermore, this system may be, as far as we know, the very reason for the survival and low attrition from hinduism in the deccan, considering islamicate rule was sustained here for considerable time. Another thing, despite the reputation among some that the south in many ways is developmentally advanced, because of our language cocoon, our elites in some ways are not as rarified and deracinated as the lutyens set (i’m not sure “prison notebooks” has a kannada edition). Our socialists perhaps have not had the same contempt for tradition, and there is a genuine conservativism that manifests among the language protectionists. Basically our “Sadashivnagar” crowd doesn’t have disdain for our rural folk in the way south delhi does for its counterpart. These different mechanics lead me to think that the endgame for anti-brahmin feeling differs, and is more an assertion of localism (including devotional practices that brahmins don’t patronize)
I agree and disagree somewhat.
The Southern Islamicate rule dwarfs in comparison to Northern one. So not sure South’s lower attrition is really due to monastic framework or just plain luck. On the contrary the rise of communism and Dravidianism as anti-Hindu forces despite South not having non-Hindu rule for long makes me believe that had Southern India seen a longer Muslim rule the attrition away from Hinduism would have been higher than the North.
Also the OBCs monastic framework are present in North as well. Many of them systematic dismantled but many like Goraknath etc have lived on. Again a long Muslim rule could have had the same results in the south. Brahmins are incidental to the whole process, and cutting them wouldn’t mean much. The current resurgence Hindu right in the North is being driven by OBCs , while Brahmins during the 2000s would vote for Congress etc just like every other caste group.
But yes on the difference of Southern elite vis-v Northern one, i wholly agree. The Southern elite both the vernacular and English speaking are closer to underclass, which the Northern elite can only dream off.
I should have been more specific about muslim rule, refering to the south above the krishna-tungabhadra basin, where it started in 1300 and continued until the peshwai era, and up until independence in those nizami regions. but in support of your point, it seems like the feudal elite in the upper south were still mainly hindu over all those centuries. Would be interesting to dive deeper into whether institutional hinduism is more elaborated in some regions vs others. Another point, the lingayat mutts are highly decentralized, and there are countless small town syndicates. Whats the correlate in Rajasthan and MP I wonder, among people who I interact with from these regions, the opinions of swamis don’t factor into social discourse it my experience.
+1 on Girmit’s point, although it is more of a monastic framework coupled with hereditary priestly sub-caste. For e.g. Lingayats rely on in-house Swamis for all their ritual needs including birth, death and marriage. I am not sure what is the situation in TN, MH or Hindi belt states. I remember back in his 2008-13 term, BSY had started giving government grants to Schools/institutions run by “mutts” of different castes and sub-castes including some considered as SCs. In KA, there is/was an increasing trend of each caste following the established template of monastic framework + priestly class. I am hoping this will reduce the inter-caste angst in KA and hopefully replicated all over India. A lot of caste friction is caused by having to depend on “social betters”.
Tamil OBCs in diaspora seem to observe all the normal rituals like other Indians except that may focus more on using tamil language and resistant to learning Hindi. I believe it is driven more by a desire to maintain their distinct sub-identity.
this measure is more in response to the muslims behaviour in coastal and highlands (malenadu) karnataka, where there have been many cases of cow thefts. there is a bit of friction between hindus and muslims here on this count. also bjp has very deep roots here.
secondly, jds also wanted bjp’s support to hit back at congress and bjp took its support in the bargain.
This is the second time in just four days that the govt is demanding Twitter to take down various accounts. Twitter is staring them in their eyes and calling their bluff. If Modi doesn’t introduce legislation then he is displaying shocking weakness, essentially allowing a private neoliberal company in the US to lord over Indian discourse.
Recently India’s ‘God of Cricket’ tweeted some vanilla comments on how “India issues are internal” and its a sovereign country. Mallus of course couldn’t stand that.
Less Hindu area—> Less Indian. At least the India we know about. Whether that’s a good or a bad thing is upto each individual.
Razib – My posts on this thread have been held up for some reason.
Cultural appropriation is largely about money and claiming historical prestige, aka increasing soft power, for one’s group. She is mad mostly white people directly profit off of American whites doing yoga. You have to think in a very tribalistic way to consistently come to the types of conclusions the crowd that always sees cultural appropriation in everything tends to come to. Does it exist? Sure. Is it as big of an issue as some of these academics make it out to be? Heck no.
They made an ad on the protests to be shown in Cali during the super-bowl
And unsurprisingly, the outro track has “Jatt” in it, lol
If you’re spending so much money, then the least you could’ve done is make it neat and unbiased
Nah, the cat is out of the bag. Might as well flaunt it.
Lmfao. The egos have peaked
Lol why make it unbiased? It was biased from the start. The whole procurement system biased, in terms who benefits from the current state of affairs. It makes sense the Jatt caste based rentier class that relies on government freebies to run their agricultural lands towards desertification on the backs of migrant and low caste labor, support this cause to protect their relatively higher incomes. It makes even more sense Khalistanis have latched on. This is their moment after decades to have even some sort of spotlight they can spin. They know, .movement wise, they bungled with the Air Canada hijacking, when it became quite clear what their central leadership involvement was. That was their last big moment as a movement. This issue is so easy for them. Their propaganda is strong. The Indian Right can learn a thing or two how to do Western appealing messaging from these people.
Honestly it is just as easy for the people at the protest to take Khalistani money and not support Khalistan as it is for Khalistanis to take ISI and CCP money and not support those illiberal entities. Granted, given the years of targeting killings of Hindus through Punjab in the 80s, the hardcore Jatt supremacism we even see here on any forum board, the entire fake encyclopedias like Jatwiki made online, I think the supremacism runs deep among the Khalistanis and really fuels their hate. The amount of anti bania just studd in Jatt media is incredible.
Buckle up folks, Bollywood and Discovery are now onto AIT vs OIT
Elite warriors of copper age, The secrets of Sinuali
Don’t understand the desperate need people have for some sort of hindu nationalism or unity. What for? To combat those oh so terrifying mussies? Give me a break. There’s never been any kind of Hindu unity, just different groups of people with their own caste/family/region-specific rituals and traditions. This is the kind of ‘traditionalism’ that’s needed- one that can complement scientific and social progress; not the regressive, neo-fascist ideology that’s promoted by the right and tacitly supported by moderates.
Of course, there are things that need to be changed, namely how much sway caste holds over socioeconomic and political outcomes, but this wish for some unification of all the hindus in the world is little more than aping the abrahamic understanding of the world and history, and even they, after centuries, haven’t been able to figure it out.
If India started an extermination campaign either within its borders or against bordering regions (Kashmir, Pak), just think about the legacy that kind of act will leave behind. Hindus are not the biggest victims of history (not even close), and yet they’ve stumbled into the status of oppressor without having ‘earned’ it. If they acted on this unearned status as tyrant, how would India not become a laughing stock in the annals of history? Acts of evil with none of the ‘benefits’ like science, tech, art, philosophy, etc. No one would want to be associated with hinduism any longer and it would just get absorbed into abrahamic faiths who would claim it as their own (the way white nationalists try to claim the Vedas as products of ‘white’ aryans).
Instead of setting up an alternative to the West and China, hindus just want to show that they have bigger dicks. No vision, no looking ahead, just a fixation on stale grievances.
And think about the disapora. We’re minorities everywhere else in the world; think about how humiliating it would be, having to explain to everyone else how we’re good hindus, not nutjobs like the genocidal maniacs ‘back home’. There goes your pan-hindu unity.
Embarrasseddiaspora your post also embarrassed us by being fact and logic free. Hope the diaspora can produce more independent and intelligent thinkers. You can secede from India or Hindus – we will bear the huge(:-)) loss
You seem to be more worried about your feelings when civilisations are literally clashing. Bhandhu these are civilisation issues.
Do not worry about India, it will survive and thrive.
If Muslims showed even half the guilt and remorse that you did, they’d all have left Islam already : )
No vision, no looking ahead
You sure sound like a policy expert.
just a fixation on stale grievances
How is worrying about everyday incidents involving Muslims killing (over religion)/ forcefully converting Hindus a “stale grievance”?
Just to be clear, nobody here condones Hindus killing Muslims either.
The difference is that the a Hindu killing a Muslim gets way more coverage than the other way around. That’s the annoying and counter-intuitive part. You think it’s possible to build a better society by simply bashing one group’s bigotry, while barely even acknowledging what another religion does? Can’t clap with one hand.
Bash bigots from all religions, why the bias, what good do people think they’re gonna achieve by not condemning assholes from one part of the society? And not being honest also invites more anger.
If you care a lot about what others (I guess westerners, to be exact) think about you, then do what you feel is the best for you. Stop misrepresenting others by calling their grievances “stale” or casually throwing around words like “genocidal maniac”.
//If Muslims showed even half the guilt and remorse that you did, they’d all have left Islam already : )//
This is just another version of ”white man bad bad” that a lot of woke/commies keep harping about.
It’s amusing to see the similarities between Hindunats and Woke/commies
Vedas were produced by Sanskrit speakers. Where Sanskrit originated and who are/were its native speakers? What does it mean Rg and Veda? What does it mean ‘white nationalists’? Which nation?
*The amount of just anti-bania stuff in Jatt media is incredible. The Modi-Shah stuff has an interesting caste flavor to it as well I think. It amounts to the irrational suspicion of an anti semitism towards Jews in the American Industrial Age. No one is saying there are progroms, but there is certainly open bias that in aggregate can even be argued as hatred against Bania origin people.
I always love the disclaimers of “Sikhism is anti-caste.” Yes it is in theory. But in practice, some of the most hardcore casteists, who say stuff about “Chamars, churas, brahmins, banias, etc.” that would make most people’s skin crawl along with the blatant caste based riots to secure disproportionate government benefits, are evidence to all about the retained casteist attitudes. The Indian Constitution is also anti-caste. It doesn’t mean people listen.
How do SC, NGT judgments impact the economy? NITI Aayog commissions study to find out
NM already posted the trailer link to the upcoming Sinauli show on Discovery Plus.
One of the archaeologists is stating on the trailer – Sinauli is the most important discovery of the 21st century so far. It is going to overturn a lot of treasured theories in the West.
There are feverish attempts to appropriate or spin Sinauli by Western Indologists. But the Indian archaeological establishment is standing firm. I wrote a detailed dissection of Parpola’s contorted attempt to classify them as early Aryans.
So far the Indian archaeological record was silent on the AIT/AMT question. This allowed western Indologists to get away with the argumentum ex silentio escape card. But now Sinauli is falsifying AIT/AMT in every way possible – the date, the location and the cultural landscape.
There are three pieces of archaeological evidence –
1. The Chariot burial – This is quite the star of the show. Enough has been said on this.
2. Rice in funerary jars @ the chariot burial – This blows up many chestnuts in western Indology. If we all agree with the contention that rice is not found in the Rgveda but only in the Yajur, then we start pushing the dates for Rgveda into the 3rd millennium.
3. Royal burials – A large hoard of weapons and gold ornaments point to a necropolis for the ruling class. This is very much in contrast to Harappan burials.
Early attempts at synchronicity of the textual tradition with the archaeological data shows a close match with burial rites mentioned in the Shatapatha Brahmana.
Ugra, I thought the trailer was presenting a OIT favorable view?
Regardless , it WILL present a native-Indian view. Of how we were the inventor of most things. I dont think ,considering the political climate, anyone would take a chance of doing otherwise.
@NM
Yes, you can say that – a OIT favorable view. More precisely it is presenting the view of the Indian archaeological establishment. The fact that they are doing this is unprecedented. That was what I was referring to….
The Sinauli team’s findings has been swept under the carpet by the Indian historical establishment – it is just astounding. The earliest chariot burial this far in the East has been from China in 1100 BC (Yin dynasty). This one pushes the record back by a full 800 years.
And of course we have Indologists to hand who are just ready with their “ox-cart” sticker. There was no horse in the grave, so it cannot be a chariot. But there was no ox in the grave either. Therefore it must be a motorized cart or perhaps the dead man pulled it himself – the earliest rickshawallah in antiquity!
motorized cart = Aryan Tesla
Many years ago, in Liverppol Indology list discussions , referring to arya on chariots as ‘panzers’ created a storm in the tea cup. It all the heated discussions that followed it was not clear who first used the expression and the blame was laid on many people and the term was repudiated completely. Ghosts of nazis easily falls in indological discussions
The EV evolution has taken a rather interesting turn in India. Kanishk Sinha, a Kolkata based lawyer who is a patentee for registration of electric vehicles across India for 20 years is claiming to be the only facilitator who can get electric vehicles registered in India. As per his claim, any individual state or union territory doesn’t have the rights to directly register any battery operated electric vehicle in their province. Any EV customer will have to use Amit Engineering’s service to get their vehicle registered, as it has leased the rights from Kanishk Sinha.
The apex court’s order also states that EV registration by any other party, be it state or union territory, will be considered to be an infringement of the patent and thereby of Supreme Court’s order as well. As per Sinha’s claims, the Supreme Court has also put a stay order on registration of EVs by Delhi Government. The court had also asked to stop the registration of electric vehicles in India on February 24, 2020 and it was upheld by the Supreme Court on January 12, 2021. The Delhi government has said that it will stop the registration of e-Rickshaws in the state while the Jammu & Kashmir government has already stopped. Other states are yet to follow the order.
The Sanauli paper, mentions that these are late Harrappan. Around 3800 years ago.
So either steppe people arrived in India much earlier and assimilated with Harrappans or Harrappans had horse drawn chariots.
Either way it’s interesting. I would say this the first challenge which AIT has to consider seriously.
One of the most important statements for sanauli is this by Manjul
“The whip we have discovered is specifically the one that is used on a horse, not a bull.
I would like to understand their reasoning for this.
@ugra what’s your understanding?
@NM
Beautiful find!! The whip used depends upon the psychology of the animal. Bulls are “bull-headed” like the English expression. They do not react that much to pain stimuli. But their attention is broken with a loud sound. A whip for bulls has a snaking arc, it makes a lot of noise but very less impact strength. So the whip is used to get a cracking sound to get the bull’s attention.
A horse is rather sensitive and inflicting pain gets the response. This is quite cruel. Many horses die from repeated whipping. Even today jockeys whip their horses to speed them – and there are calls to ban the whip.
Europeans have stopped using draught animals since a long time. I suspect they no longer understand the significance of different whips. Indians still retain the practice.
That’s why I repeatedly remark on the common sensical approach of the lead excavator, Mr Manjul. This man in the field is worth a thousand scholars who have not left their libraries.
This dude cites brownpundits in his answer. Funnily enough, those maps are made only with the plurality caste groups of the individual states. I remember when they were first posted a few years ago in a few places.
Aka Punjab is modeled exclusively as Jat and Gujarat as Patel, when for example Jats are pike 25% of Punjab. The other more AASI castes of Punjab are ignored, as usual, including the 30% dalits who have just as much claim to Punjab and model with S Indian dalits. If you took a real average the numbers would be a lot closer. Additionally, a big hoo ha is made for about 15% on average more West Eurasian DNA compared to surrounding area major groups. There is always a crap ton of manipulation with this stuff. Quora is just funny. It, along with reddit, is often a cesspool of confirmation bias circle jerking, granted the whole “bubble” culture of the internet is becoming that way.
Oh Keindie Pump Up The Bong Oh Keinde
Oh Mamata Banerjee
The Serbian Prosecutor’s Office for Organized Crime, in cooperation with the Service for the Fight against Organized Crime, arrested the son of the Ambassador of Pakistan to Romania, who tried to transfer three migrants from Bangladesh through this border crossing to Hungary. The migrants were in the trunk of a diplomatic Mercedes, which was used by the Pakistani ambassador to Romania.
D. Galijasevic, an expert on security and the fight against international terrorism, says that this is an undoubted success of the Serbian secret services and an action whose real details will be marked “strictly confidential”.
– This is not about the “adventurism” of the son of an ambassador or his desire to earn “pocket money” by smuggling migrants, but about a secret operation in which all segments of the Pakistani state are involved. Taking advantage of the EU and Balkan occupation of the corona virus pandemic, this was an attempt to transfer some very important people for the Pakistani services “under the radar” to the European Union. It is up to us to guess whether it was former high-ranking members of the defeated Islamic State who wanted to escape to the West, operatives of some “black op” secret operation or members of some terrorist organizations.
He states that Pakistan’s Intercity Intelligence Service (ISI), currently one of the five most powerful secret services in the world, and that its activities in the Balkans, which began with the war in Bosnia, intensified with the outbreak of the migrant crisis.
– Thanks to the Pakistani secret service – the largest number of former members of the Islamic State managed to avoid lawsuits and get to Europe. The group also includes former commanders or religious leaders, who were recruited by the Pakistani secret service during the war. Depending on the importance and rank in the Islamic State, they do not pass the entire migrant route, but transfer them to the EU as “diplomatic mail” or under other, fictitious names.
Pakistan played an active role in arming the Bosnia’s muslim Army, but also in educating Muslim personnel. At least three generals of the Armed Forces of Bosnia, some of whom are still active, attended the course of their military-intelligence service during the war, from 1993 to 1995, in the Pakistani city of Quetta, which was attended by several current leaders of the Islamic State, Al Qaeda and the Al Nusra movement. Bosnia Defence Minister General Sifet Podzic completed the course, as did Khalid Sheikh Muhammad, the main organizer of the September 11, 2001 attacks on the United States. Muhammad entered Bosnia with a false identity and then obtained Bosnia citizenship. His role in Bosnia was to recruit new and network old members of Al Qaeda. Practically, with the network of terrorists that he organized in Bosnia, the Intelligence Service of Pakistan used Bosnia to attack the Twin Towers and the Pentagon. “American Extreme News” declared the Pakistani intelligence service the best and strongest service of its kind in the world.
Pak ISI is nothing short of incredible. RAW is a comparative joke.
A very interesting survey on Indian-Americans is out. It underlines many of my assumptions. 2nd gen Indian-Americans see a dramatic drop-off in attachment to India.
Hindu Americans give Modi a net approval of +50. The only other religious group to do so are Christians but only at +2. All other groups give him a negative.
There are some signs of “liberal in the US but conservative in India” hypocrisy. For example on questions of illegal immigration, the position taken in the US context is more liberal than when asked about illegal immigration in India.
Finally, US-born Indians are far more dovish on China. About equal shares think the US shouldn’t provoke China by strengthening India’s military as do those who support the US doing that. Among NRIs, more than half think the US should support India against China even at the risk of provocation. Only 21% do not think so.
Indian-Americans show every sign of a classic rapidly assimilating minority. Any hawkishness and cultural conservatism on India is mostly present primarily because of a high immigration rate, which keeps the NRI share fairly elevated. That tends to melt away fairly substantially (but not completely) by the 2nd gen.
An issue I’ve highlighted many times is that Indian-Americans are very split along religious lines. Modi really is “the Hindu leader” with all non-Hindu groups either barely positive on him (Christians) or strongly negative (everyone else).This poll was also taken in Sept of last year, so before the farmer protests. I would assume the Sikh opinion has fallen very rapidly since the poll was conducted.
The question “I have supported religious organizations in India in the last year” has more positive responses from US-born folks (21%) than foreign born (13%). Interesting.
This is just another version of ”white man bad bad” that a lot of woke/commies keep harping about.
It’s amusing to see the similarities between Hindunats and Woke/commies
I’m not even a Hindunat, lol.
And read what I wrote again.
I’m ridiculing that guy’s logic, not advocating for “all Muslims bad” or “white man bad” or anything similar at all.
I’m barely even religious to begin with, I was pretty much a “#atheist #freethinker” type (I’ve gone back to calling myself a Hindu though, only really celebrate Diwali each year though) and very apolitical at one point.
I just have a really big problem with Islam, the stuff I’ve seen happen is pretty alarming, and it irks me when everyone just lets such dangerous behaviour slide (because they don’t want to “offend” someone or come across as islamophobic or whatever else). If having a problem with Islam automatically makes me a Hindunat, then I guess I am one.
Latest manifestation of the big problem, a 17 year old French girl getting death threats and she had go in hiding and change schools since she criticised Islam
France Mila affair: Five held for death threats over video critical of Islam
it appears that swapan das gupta is out of pioneer.
@Ugra
> And of course we have Indologists to hand who
> are just ready with their “ox-cart” sticker [applied
> to Sanauli would-be “chariots”]. There was no horse
> in the grave, so it cannot be a chariot. But there was
> no ox in the grave either.
Note the complete absence of remains or representations of horses (or onagers, like those drawing Sumerian war wagons) in the burials of Sanauli – an inexplicable fact when considering that all other implements of war of the local dignitaries buried there were excavated from the site. On the contrary, in spite of a complete absence of bullock remains, too, the presence, on the lid of one of the Sanauli sarcophagi, of a row of figures in relief having a horned headgear (which rather looks like a bovine head with a frond of pipal between the horns, see pic at
is likely to be connected to the animals that presumably pulled the vehicles buried together with the sarcophagi (and also to certain earlier Harappan iconographic motifs, for that matter).
Let me, thus, repeat once again that the vehicles unearthed at Sanauli were not spoked-wheeled chariots (ratha-s) as those described in Vedic texts. Those solid-wheeled vehicles cannot be considered true battle or racing *chariots* like the ones found at Sintashta (c.2000 BCE).
@Francesco Brighenti
Your logical excursions are bizarre. I will try to explain the engineering details.
The size and weight of the wheel tells you something about the function of the vehicle. Torque requires a force to be transmitted over the radial distance. By increasing the wheel size, you increase the radial distance and also reduce the torque at wheel rims applied to the ground. The smaller the wheel, higher the driving force transmitted to the ground.
Second, a heavier wheel allows you to decelerate faster and take curves, turns, banks easier. Heavy wheels have a higher mass and the mass is concentrated away from the centre of rotation, causing a higher inertial load. If the foot is taken off the accelerator, the the heavier wheel will decelerate quicker than the lighter wheel.
This is why modern fucking trains have small solid wheels! To make them go very fast (top speed) but also decelerate quickly when required.
If I were a war chariot maker, I would fix small solid wheels – I would want to go faster but also I want to lose speed quickly to change directions.
If I were a transport cart maker, I would fix large, spoked wheels. Because going slowly at a sustainable pace is the golden rule. The traditional Indian bullock cart looks exactly like that. Any Indian will tell you that.
The Sinauli vehicle was a war chariot buried with its warrior. The weapons buried in the grave are secondary attestation.
Ugra Heavy wheels have a higher mass and the mass is concentrated away from the centre of rotation, causing a higher inertial load.
I read with interest till I came to the above.
Any wheel, spoked, solid whatever has its center of mass/gravity the center of the circle/wheel. (9th grade. O/L Physics). If not the wheel is unbalanced and becomes very obvious with a little speed. That why car wheels are taken to be balanced.
Then every engineering claim you make is suspect, though it sounds impressive.
@sbarrkum
I did not say anything the way you have understood it. My mistake was to explain moment of inertia and vector physics in layman’s language.
A solid wheel (whose weight is evenly distributed across the disk) and a spoked wheel whose mass is concentrated only on the rim have different levels of moment of inertia, translational and rotational kinetic energy. It is a standard derivation from Newton’s laws. See below –
You don’t have to talk about unbalanced wheels. Even car mechanics in the back of nowhere know that.
@NM
> One of the most important statements for Sanauli
> is this by Manjul:
>
> “The whip we have discovered is specifically the
> one that is used on a horse, not a bull.
>
> I would like to understand their reasoning for this.
I think so far Dr. Manjul has made this statement only in this video interview:
Also in the famous Daimabad bronze model cart, having solid wheels (just like the Sanauli vehicles) and drawn by a pair of zebu oxen (not horses!), the cart driver holds a whip in his right hand – see pics at
P. Yule, _Metalwork of the Bronze Age in India_, München 1985, pp. 30-31 writes that the upper surface of the Daimabad cart’s whip is “cross-hatched.” The latter feature may be meant to represent the crossed leather strip covering the shaft of the whip, quite like in the Sanauli example. Therefore, why does Manjul say, “That whip is only used for the horse chariot”? That’s a mystery to me!
@Francesco
It seems you make a lot of claims while being so ignorant. Why Sanauli find is a chariot?
1. Carts and chariots both use spoked wheels, and they have similar construction; yet they are recognised to be different. The reason is that people can only sit on a cart. One the other hand, chariot allows you to stand. This is the main difference between the two. FYI: Sumerian chariots had solid wheels.
2. The shape of the vehicle found at Sanauli shows that it could only be drawn by a horse/mule. The yoke itself is constructed in that way.
Lol Trudeau called and asked Modi for vaccines. Modi obliged.
Question for our punjabi pundits – asking as an ignorant southie, what explains the fact that many surnames such as Bedi, Gulati, Kukreja, Suri, Puri, etc. are shared by Hindus and Sikhs? Do say hindu bedis intermarry with sikh bedis, or if not did they at one point in time?
These are predominantly Khatri and Arora last names, and much like Hindu and Jain Agarwals, caste predominates religious sect when it comes to marriage. Traditionally, religious orientation is seen very much as a personal choice in these communities.
This is in contrast to Jat Sikhs and Hindu Jats, who have distilled into two completely different ethnic groups. Traditionally, Jat Sikhs and Hindu Jats will marry neither outside caste, nor religion.
Excellent analogy. Yup Hindu and Jain Vaishya generally mix (some exceptions) marriage wise like Sikh and Hindu Khatris do. Generally though, kids tend to adopt religion of the father.
Thanks, Vikram and warlock!
This has to do with heartlands and recent tribal splits. Heart land of vaishyas is I sould say Southern Rajasthan. That is also the center of Jainism in the past. So it just worked out that way.
In the same way, the Khatri Arora heartland is West Punjab. Interestingly enough,both groups are mercantile. Maybe the business spirit of comprimise also influences it. But most of it is just probably tribalism.
Classic example could be Ambani is a Hindu Vania (gujarati vaishya/bania) and Adani is a Gujarati vania Jain. Intermarriage between the two’s families, even if say they were typical people, wouldn’t be seen as a big deal and considered intratribe.
Btw, I endorse none of this tribalism. I hope people continue to mix freely so these divisions stop.
Well if you want to get into the nitty gritty Mukesh Ambani himself is the product of an inter-caste marriage.
His mother Kokilaben is a Patel, but no one seems to have cared even back in his fathers era and is entirely non-controversial.
Btw I only came across this while reading Hamish McDonalds biography on the Ambani’s.
Where he plays up all the standard tropes about Indias caste system, marriage etc. And seems to think that Dhirubhai married within his caste.
He doesn’t seem to realize that “Kokilaben Patel’ is a different caste from “Dhirubhai Ambani”.
A 13 year old Gujarati school kid wouldn’t make this type of mistake.
I couldn’t really take that book seriously after that point.
There are some interesting texts in newspapers and magazines. The author is an OIT guy but there are some interesting confirmations of something what I wrote few times before. He is probably known to Indian readers and he wrote the paper:
Itihasa Darpan, vol. 25, 1-2, pp. 59-66, 2020
Uttarakuru and the Slavs, Subhash Kak
Or, in the newspaper:
Slavs Searching for their Gods -By Shri Subhash Kak
He uses the term ‘Slavs’ although this term did not exist before the 7thc.AC. The right term should be ‘Serbs’. But, it is good as far as I could see that he has not used the meaningless term ‘Indo-European’. He listed Slavs’ (i.e. Serbian) gods and found their parallels in Hinduism. We will discuss this in our next discussion topic after linguistics – mythology.
Another important thing, which I wrote before and he directly or indirectly confirmed – Sakas, i.e. Scythians, Yuezhi in China (remember the guy with moustaches who told us that ancient Chinese were Serbs?), Kushans were Slavs (i.e. Serbian speaking tribes).
I have read Subhash Kak’s articles on comparative mythology and symbols. His other articles on this topic are quite interesting too.
If anyone interested, this is an interesting set of recent lectures on IVC archeology and script by Kenoyer. https://youtu.be/CWeuu2ltl5E
Couple of interesting points:
1. IVC script has indications of multiple languages being written in that. If one watches closely the collection of all symbols of IVC, it is startling how closely they follow the script rules of deccan scripts (e.g., guninthaalu). But these are not all from same region, which means they could be ‘adjacent’ scripts (e.g, Telugu – Kannada scripts). Given the extensive trade networks of IVC, they could’ve been multi-lingual.
2. There is a distinct change in elite between 1900-1300BC even through there is cultural continuity. Kenoyer’s evidence is the decline in “unicorn” seals. However, the religious and ritualistic elements appear unbroken as well as urbanism (e.g. Taxila). From both his lectures, it seems like 2600-1900BC some dynasty united different regional urban centers, but they got back to different regions again after 1900BC which continued up to Buddhist period.
Good stuff.
@ Violet….good source material. Goes into my view list.
BTW, regarding PNG sugarcane in N India (1000 BCE), are you sure that it could not have spread by natural dispersal from Myanmar ? After all sugarcane is just a variety of wild grass.
I wish there was more of these lectures on IVC. It is really fascinating to see how much of archeology is done in the last 20-30 years. It is unlikely any aDNA from IVC is going to be representative since they were mainly a cremation culture.
About sugarcane, PNG is an island. Everything has to leave by a boat. They spread their sugarcane both east and west (to Polynesia and Madagascar).
There is a competing sugarcane variety Saccharum sinense that is widespread in SE Asia. If it was a wild spread, then hybrid would be mixed with this variety too. It can’t be so cleanly different or selective.
@Ugra
> Your logical excursions are bizarre.
> I will try to explain the engineering details.
Well, for what it’s worth you may be an engineer, yet you seem to know nothing about Bronze Age chariot technology.
> The Sinauli vehicle was a war chariot
> buried with its warrior.
This is an authoritative definition of the English term ‘chariot’ given by M.A. Littauer and J.H. Crouwel, two leading specialists in ancient vehicles:
http://tinyurl.com/y59wykz4
“Chariot – A light, fast, two-wheeled, usually horse-drawn, vehicle with spoked wheels; used for warfare, hunting, racing and ceremonial purposes. Its crew usually stood.”
Ancient battle/racing “chariots” had spoked wheels, and the spokes of their wheels were made of metal, not of wood like those — much larger — of traditional Indian bullock carts you erroneously cite for comparison.
@Francesco Brighenti
Are you not up to speed? Littauer and Crouwel have already stated that the Sintashta vehicles are only carts, not chariots!
Yes, you heard it correctly. Littauer and Crouwel called the Sintashta vehicles as carts.
“49% of Indian Americans back PM Modi, voted Republican, survey finds”
People want low taxes.
@Tpot
> It seems you make a lot of claims
> while being so ignorant.
Thank you for your kindness!
> Carts and chariots both use spoked wheels,
> and they have similar construction; yet they
> are recognised to be different. The reason is
> that people can only sit on a cart. On the other
> hand, chariot allows you to stand. This is the
> main difference between the two.
In the Daimabad bronze model cart, having solid wheels and drawn by a pair of oxen, the driver stands:
Sumerians had no “chariots”, just battle wagons with four solid wheels which were drawn by four onagers.
> The shape of the vehicle found at Sanauli
> shows that it could only be drawn by a
> horse/mule. The yoke itself is constructed
> in that way.
What is so special in the yoke of the Sanauli wheeled vehicles that would indicate they could be only be drawn by horses/mules (and not by oxen)?
@ Francesco Brighenti
I will answer for Tpot if it is alright.
Take a magnifying glass and look at the Daimabad bronze. I mean it. The yoke harness has two U shaped mechanisms to fit over the Zebu bulls humps. It is very significant.
Now look at the Sinauli chariots. They don’t have the U shaped halter. It is a simple straight mechanism.
Horses have halters tied to the neck and their ribcage to transfer the propulsive loads to the yoke. Zebu bulls transfer the loads via their hump.
It is very clear to a neutral observer. That is why the AIT camp is panicking!! A layman can clearly see the difference.
What is so special in the yoke of the Sanauli wheeled vehicles that would indicate they could be only be drawn by horses/mules (and not by oxen)?
Just wondering wouldn’t the same question be applicable to Sintashta too, how was it answered in that context? (Apart from any horse bones?)
@ Francesco
1. You should look at how chariots came to to be: They were actually an evolution of ox carts. So, your example shows a proto chariot. The reason it is a proto chariot is because it lacks a platform. You can observe this from the pictures of Sanauli chariot and Daimabad proto chariot yourself.
* Further FYI: You should look at the article “The evolution of the double-horse chariots from the bronze age to the Hellenistic times” to learn about the Mesopotamian chariots.
* For clearing away your ignorance
From 9 Ancient Sumerian Inventions That Changed the World
“The Sumerians didn’t invent wheeled vehicles, but they probably developed the first two-wheeled chariot in which a driver drove a team of animals, writes Richard W. Bulliet in The Wheel: Inventions and Reinventions. Goodman says that there’s evidence the Sumerians had such carts for transportation in the 3000s B.C., but they were probably used for ceremonies or by the military, rather than as a means to get around the countryside, where the rough terrain would have made wheeled travel difficult.”
The chariot is exactly the same as the Daimabad bronze one. If it only had a platform, it can be considered to be a proper chariot. Of course, the most effective version of the chariot had spoked wheels.
2. What is special about the yoke? It is the angle that the yoke makes with the ground. A horse/mule pulls from the lower half of the body while ox pulls the vehicle from the upper half. And then there is the whip also, as mentioned by Manjul, the ASI jt. director.
From an anonymous government official in the article:
“When it comes to national security, safety and sovereignty, this government can go to any extent as was evident from our action against TikTok,” he said. “We are giving you [Twitter] space to do business in India, not to run its democracy.”
Vinca’s motorized, branded cars thousands of years before Aryans.
Hoabinhian hunter-gatherer from Laos 8,000 years ago: 1.76 m
Neolithic Shandong Dawenkou male average: 1.72 m
Han Dynasty Duke of Chu: 1.72 m
Neolithic Henan Yangshao male average: 1.68 m
Paleolithic Ryukyu Ishigaki Shiraho Saonetabaru hunter-gatherer: 1.65 m
Han Dynasty noble woman from Jiangsu: 1.65 m
From the Han dynasty Chu-yen slips, the average height of males 18 years and older was 169.59 cm, which is closer to 5’7”.
This was taken out of 18 people recorded who were also recorded as adult males, which gives a small sample size. However, other evidence of around the time says more or less the same thing.A ccording to the bones excavated in ZhengZhou:
1) Han dynasty adult males average 170 cm, adult females average 161.25 cm
2) Tang dynasty adult males average 166.67 cm, adult females average 156.05 cm
3) Song dynasty adult males average 163.45 cm, adult females 156.01 cm
-from “ZhenZhou study on Han, Tang, and Song excavated tomb bones”
As you can see, ancient Sinitic males and females weren’t significantly taller compared to contemporary populations from other parts of Asia.
According to the above data, all those Three Kingdom generals were likely around 1.70 or slightly less, so a Hoabinhian hunter-gatherer from prehistoric SE Asia can easily defeat any one of them in a one-on-one dual
Who’s on Koo? Who is planning to? Razib?
@NM
[FB:] “What is so special in the yoke of the Sanauli wheeled vehicles that would indicate they could be only be drawn by horses/mules (and not by oxen)?”
[NM:] “Just wondering wouldn’t the same question be applicable to Sintashta too, how was it answered in that context? (Apart from any horse bones?)”
The only remains we have of the Sintashta vehicles are the lower part
of spoked wheel impressions. We do not have remains of the vehicles themselves — including, of course, their draft poles and yokes. However, there is no doubt the chariots were pulled by horses as horse skeletal remains (skulls and bones) and cheekpieces for horse-bits have been found in those burials in plenty. Had the buried vehicles been drawn by bullocks, you wouldn’t have found horse remains and cheeckpieces in those burials.
Thanks
@Ugra
“Are you not up to speed? Littauer and Crouwel have already stated that the Sintashta vehicles are only carts, not chariots! Yes, you heard it correctly. Littauer and Crouwel called the Sintashta vehicles as carts: https://mobile.twitter.com/TrueShoebill .You are really throwing sources at me which demolish your case. I expect better!”
Read better Littauer & Crouwel’s famous 1996 article “The Origin of the True Chariot” at https://tinyurl.com/53qv7gwo ; unlike what is stated in your Twitter source, they never claim the Sintashta-Petrovka vehicles were “carts”, although their (respectable) position is that those vehicles “would not be manoeuvrable enough for use either in warfare or in racing” (p. 52). Littauer & Crouwel point to aspects of the Sintashta-Petrovka vehicles — narrow gauges and short length of the naves — that would make them inherently unstable and unsuitable for speed or maneuverability.
However, in subsequent years D. Anthony replied to this type of criticism (also from other specialists) by pointing out that the first examples of Sintashta-Petrovka chariots published in English had gauges of only about 1.2–1.3 m, whereas six other chariots, still unknown to Littauer, Crouwel and other critics in the mid-1990s, had gauges between 1.4 and 1.6 m and were consequently as wide as some of the highly manoeuvrable Egyptian war chariots — see at
Therefore, this kind of dismissal of the functional utility of Sintashta-Petrovka chariots does not stand scrutiny.
@Francesco Brighenti
There was nothing remaining of the Sintashta carts. Almost nothing. Just some treads in the soil layer and horse remains and disintegrated boards. There was not even a yoke. Maybe the cart was pushed by men. With so few artifacts, the myth of a chariot origin was started.
Tell me what is the textual tradition of the Sintashta? Did they record the usage of chariots in stories? Did they even have a script?
All the evidence is in India – we have attested textual evidence of use of chariots, we have divinities in war chariots. And the Sinauli chariot is much better preserved – you know why? Because it has copper cladding all over!! Sintashta is a joke. Who goes to war in the Bronze Age without metal? The Sinauli chariot is a real war machine.
Bronze age India pioneered the use of bronze (earliest bronze artifact in the world), one of the nine primary centres of crop domestication, urbanism, dairy farming and trading (Zebu), elephant domestication and one of the 4 centres of independent script development. Multi-disciplinary assessment indicates that India is also an independent centre of development of the war chariot.
Lol! – you have made Sintashta chariots (accepted as such by most of international scholars) into “carts” and, conversely, you have made Sanauli carts (identified as chariots only by some Indian archaeologists who adhere to the “Vedic Harappa” / OIT paradigm and by the Indian media sucking up the Sanghis) into “war chariots”. Congratulations!
As to the one extant yoke of the Sanauli vehicles, it is represented by a crossbar measuring about 95 cm in length – see images at https://tinyurl.com/y6gf7vaf and at https://tinyurl.com/y28h4bk6 (Fig. No. 10). A similar straight crosspiece, although apparently longer than 95 cm (of course, in scale), constitutes the yoke of most of Harappan terracotta model carts, drawn by a pair of oxen, as reconstructed by archaeologists – see images at https://tinyurl.com/1a164rf1 .
So let me once again ask: Why did Dr. Manjul state that the whip and the yoke he excavated from Sanauli burials could only be used in a vehicle drawn by horses?
Don’t generalize, I am Sangh guy, but I am more convinced AIT than OIT. The original Sangh guy Bal Gangadhar Tilak wrote book promoting AIT
@Francesco Brighenti
Your question on whips is already answered. Scroll up. It has to do with animal psychology.
Paradigm changes are frequent in all fields. You want to hold on to certain narratives and disregard newer finds. The excavators have reported their findings in peer reviewed archaeological journals. Sticking your head in the sand is your prerogative. I am not stopping you.
@Francesco
You are intelligent enough to ask great questions; yet you are extremely close minded and biased enough to not even believe what your eyes show! Let me explain to you once again:
1. Why yoke could only be drawn by a mule/horse?
In the google examples you linked, the yoke is close to horizontal for vehicles driven by oxens. This is because oxens pull from the upper half of the body. The yoke cannot be attached to the base of the vehicle, and yet be robust and efficient enough to transfer power to the vehicle. Being at an angle implies that draught animals (horse/mule) that transfer power from the lower half of the body pulled the vehicle.
2. Why Sanauli find is a chariot?
The platform of the vehicle in Sanauli is below the wheel centre. This is what makes a person able to stand and drive the chariot. On the other hand, the platform on a cart is above wheel centre. I know you will ignore and continue with your trope that sanauli find is a cart and not a chariot. I encourage you to just be consistent and call all chariots in the world as carts! Or please tell me why something that can be observed by inspection is wrong.
Images of spoked wheels as well as miniature models of such wheels date back to the middle of 3d millennium BC, including in India. From the standpoint of of historical reconstructions, this means that a wheel with spokes (as well as vehicles with such wheels) was well known to people long before the Sintashtians. The dating of Sintashta wheels with spokes 2-3 centuries earlier than samples from other regions is just an archaeological formality in the discussion about the primacy of the invention of this type of transport.
It must be said that the deserted steppe is much more convenient for archaeological searches than urbanized densely populated areas.
Delhi: 25-Year-Old Rinku Sharma Dies After Brutal Mob Lynching; Modus Operandi Consistent With Jihadist Hate Crimes
I think this has become a pattern, what’s stopping Amit Shah from setting up a CBI probe team?
@Ex
“Images of spoked wheels as well as miniature models of such wheels date back to the middle of 3d millennium BC, including in India. From the standpoint of of historical reconstructions, this means that a wheel with spokes (as well as vehicles with such wheels) was well known to people long before the Sintashtians.”
B.B. Lal and other Indian archaeologists (as well as, embarassingly, J.M. Kenoyer, too) claim that Harappan terracotta discs of this type : https://tinyurl.com/279hkola would represent miniature models of spoked wheels and would, therefore, “demonstrate” (!) that the Harappans had war chariots equal to the Vedic ratha. Instead, these are most likely spindles for spinning in the form of a perforated disc (English “spindle whorls”), decorated with a radial pattern. Similar motifs appear all over the world many thousands of years before the wheel, let alone the spoked one, existed. You can also find them in societies that never adopted the use of the wheel, such as native North American ones. To claim that these objects represent the spokes of the wheel of a war chariot demonstrates how little critical discrimination is left among these Indian archaeologists.
to Francesco Brighenti https://www.archaeologyonline.net/artifacts/horse-debate
-Horse has always been a rare animal in India in both the Harrapa and the post-Harappan period.
– The same applies to finds of chariots.
-Horse in Rigveda is more a symbolic animal. Its frequent mention in hymns should not at all reflect the structure of animal husbandry of the Vedic Aryans.
– The composers of the Rig Veda most likely lived in the countryside , therefore there are almost no urban motives there.
@Francesco
If you are asking such basic questions on how archaeologists confirmed the presence of carts in Harappa, then you don’t know anything regarding the topic. To help you, here is a compulsory reading before you embarrass yourself more “Wheeled Vehicles of the Indus Valley Civilization of Pakistan and India”.
FYI not only cart figurines have been found but also cart tracks. Furthermore, if even Sanauli find does not convince you, nothing will.
Another Khalistani hit piece from a Soros funded Open Society fellow. Pure bias in this.
Ironic how he frames a Jat Sikh and now pan Jat caste agitation of rentier class farmers who are using extortionist methods to stop opening of markets to protect their freebies as symbols of anti oppression.
From the richest state to a poor one. Over reliance on drugs and agriculture. Even the license raj can’t prop up them for so long. But don’t worry. After destroying Punjab’s water tables with inefficient farming and the air with stubble burning,many will use MSP money to send their kids abroad. Leaving the land damaged for future generations.
“About 110 million farmers have been striking on the outskirts of Delhi for over two months, braving the biting cold and rain in a peaceful protest against the three new agricultural laws that were passed last September. As many as 70 farmers have apparently died during the protest. Families of farmers who died during protests will not be compensated, the federal government told the lower house.”
https://theprint.in/national-interest/modi-govt-has-lost-farm-laws-battle-now-raising-sikh-separatist-bogey-will-be-a-grave-error/599860/
Modi govt has lost farm laws battle, now raising Sikh separatist bogey will be a grave error
https://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/columns/nationalism-new-india-protest-democracy-pb-mehta-7176577/
” There are a lot of thinking people who would argue, on policy, both that the government is wrong and the farmers’ position might not be tenable in its entirety. Neither the government’s nor the farmers’ position addresses the long-term challenges of the environment. But equally, the government’s position does not address the real long-term issues of precarity in the agriculture sector.
You claim you were ready to compromise, put the Bills in abeyance. But that will not be enough for two reasons. You denied standing to those who disagreed; they were the ground on which allegiances were tested, not policy debated. It is abundantly clear the changes Indian agriculture requires cannot be done within the framework of these Bills. The only way to move forward is to repeal the bills and start from first principles. You will get new allies and a better outcome.”
India’s foremost liberal commentator on farm laws. ?
BJP needs a vajpayee type of smooth talker more than ever
Does someone have a clubhouse invite? Lots of interesting discussions on economics, history and genetics that I’d like to listen in to but currently missing out on. Let me know! ?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/theprint.in/india/rihannas-fenty-beauty-under-scanner-in-india-for-using-mica-from-mines-hiring-child-labour/599647/%3ffbclid=IwAR1Un3A5czUJGXgtmrmGk-isptYvPAvocKAVhJQcMnPiUIO3-lKJ1Ja8_ys&
Rihanna Fenty Beauty brand under lens in India for ‘using mica from mines hiring child labour’
Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones at others
Dude, everybody in the internet era lives in a glass house (in more ways than one). All that matters is (1) how much attention your house attracts and (2) how many people you can muster to throw stones at another’s.
mistake of vajpayee, smooth talk over hard power, mistake of modi,only hard power and no place for diplomacy.
I don’t know what could be more diplomatic than giving in to almost all farmer demands and treating the tractor rally in the capital with kid gloves.
That is after they protested, diplomacy works best before. Find out who will be the most resistant to change and bring them over first.
You folks know about this guy, Balaji Viswanathan? He primarily posts on Quora, and is quite brilliant and insightful. He’s the CEO of his own robotics company and is well versed in literally everything. Check him out at: https://www.quora.com/profile/பாலாஜி-விஸ்வநாதன்-Balaji-Viswanathan
Razib, very good talk on hominid tool findings in South India; going on right now
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6R2qp53jrH4&feature=youtu.be
anyone ask genetics related Questions
i don’t think talkers know genertics
“Rihanna Rallies to the Wrong Cause in India: Farmers protest in defense of a dysfunctional system, and Modi has treated them relatively gently.”
By Sadanand Dhume | Feb. 4, 2021
https://www.wsj.com/articles/rihanna-rallies-to-the-wrong-cause-in-india-11612465735
“What do Rihanna, Greta Thunberg and Vice President Kamala Harris’s niece, Meena Harris, have in common? They’re all rallying support for India’s farmer protests, which are morphing from an arcane domestic dispute into an emotive international cause. And they’re all mostly wrong in their thinking. …
“There’s nothing wrong with celebrities taking an interest in events half a world away. But when it comes to the farmer protests, celebrity Twitter activism is based on a reductive caricature of complex issues as a faceoff between colorfully turbaned sons of the soil and a thuggish government backed by evil corporations.
“If you dig into the details, the moral questions become less clear. Protesting farmers may have understandable fears about their futures, but they come mostly from a relatively privileged minority who benefit from an unsustainable procurement system set up more than 50 years ago. …”
Came across this trailer for an Indo-African rom com (Indian guy, Nigerian girl).
TBH I have never seen any Indian person dating a black person in real life, though I am sure there would be some.
For Netflix to be chasing this kind of demographic, they must really have exhausted all other combinations.
I do hope Indians start taking more interest in Africa.
—
Namaste-Wahala
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJzCtDD-FDQ
I’m sure you know this, but Kamala Harris’ parents are Black & Indian.
I think Black & Indian marriages are somewhat more common in the Caribbean, although I’ve also heard that there are sometimes tensions between Indians and Blacks, particularly in Guyana.
But yea, beyond that, it’s not all that common, esp given some Indians’ prejudices toward Black people (not sure if Black people have prejudices against Indians, but wouldn’t be surprised… see Uganda, Guyana).
A marriage probably in the 1900’s, a Barbadian (Educated in England) was a judge in Ceylon married to Ceylon Burgher/Eurasian. One of the daughters Estelle Roberts was my mothers (Peace BeeBee) classmate.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/wWozVCoEP8qS24zf7
Classmate who was radio officer married a Somali and they both lived in Sri Lanka
Classmates son (they live in US) married to an african american
I have dated a few African Americans while living in the US
over the last 6 months BP is now consistently getting more traffic from india than the usa…
can become big. conversations that dont get heard on mainstrem can become a bridge to better understanding.
google ‘dougla’
about 20% of trinidad’s population is mixed indian black
re: famous ppl
– chill of tlc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rozonda_Thomas
– tatyana ali https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatyana_Ali
Chili isn’t Trinidadian (I believe her father is from Bangladesh and her mother is American Black), but yes, she is fairly representative of the look.
You forget arguably the most famous example: Nicki Minaj. Although more specifically, her father is a Dougla, her mother is Afro-Trinidadian.
I myself am of Dougla descent, though more Indian than African. One of my great-grandmothers was a true Trinidadian Dougla.
Nice little write-up on the topic:
http://rewindandcomeagain.com/west-indian-word-of-the-week-dougla/
Thanks Indo-Carib for the link.
Some of the photos rhyme with the Sri Lankan look.
When in the US, I almost never mistook Indians for Sri Lankans.
Often mistook Trinidadians etc for Sri Lankans
This is a foodie video of Lankan restaurants in Staten Island, NY
The narrator, Skiz Fernando is Sri Lankan too. Skiz says he is pure Sinhalese, all I can say is hmm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_70mpid-3Pw
For those who want to see India’s economic differential vis-a-vis Pakistan in terms of their sub-regions. You probably had some inkling about the differential but it is bigger than you think. Quite big! There is a vast gulf – the below video shows a time lapse from 1970 to 2020 on how the regions fared –
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjEC0LP-M_8
To put in perspective, Kerala in 1970 was already bigger than the economy of Balochistan. Today Kerala’s GDP is bigger than all of Pakistan minus Punjab. By 2030, Kerala will outstrip Pakistan.
Today Tamilnadu’s GDP is bigger that of Pakistan with only one third of its population. Big brother Maharashtra is playing in another league.
The difference is stark – we are going to enter a period of flux before the end of this decade. No entity within the Westphalian framework can survive this level of power differential without coping mechanisms (trade bridge, peace treaties, vassal status etc).
I think China colonizing Pak will be good. They will run the country better than the radical islamists and their corrupt zamindar panderers would. Ideally, market minded leaders, who are anti military industrial complex controlling everything, rise up there. For now, China’s strong guiding hand, despite there for an unequal bargain, is still better than the likely status quo.
No. All China wants is to suck Pakistan dry of it’s resources , be it’s consumer for it’s industrial products,supplier of raw materials and where Chinese capital can be invested on terms set by China, and China can give ‘loans’ to pakistan at exorbitant rates. In return China will support Pakistan in it’s attempt to grab Indian territory, and pakistan will keep quiet about China’s minorities like Uyghurs
In other words colonise Pakistan economically.
VijayVan
I assume you have heard of the Colombo Harbor East Container Terminal spat with India. SL has decided not to lease to India/Japan consortium.
India has ended the Swap agreement with SL.
Also a clause to get IMF backing to extend the Swap.
That seemed a odd clause because India and IMF are not really buddy buddies.
Then realized India is part of the Quad.
So maybe India game plan maybe to get IMF to force ECT to India.
Then the Quad directly or indirectly has a foothold in SL
Sbarrkum
India is cautious about Quad, rightly so. India has not been part of military alliances after 1947 so it is cautious. Even 5 year from now, can’t be sure about India’s entanglement in Quad. Indian foreign office is always suspicious about US intentions
The Chinese loans carry a significantly lower interest rates than the Paris Club and other loans from multilateral parties that still form the majority of Pakistan’s external debt. Not only that, the Chinese usually rollover these loans and are very flexible, the same cannot be said of other Western creditors. Chinese economic influence in Pakistan has had a net positive affect, they have collaborated in building and modernizing road, rail, port and power infrastructure in Pakistan that has already started yielding positive dividends will continue doing so in the near future. The power crisis of the 2010’s that decimated the textile industry is mostly a thing of the past. I don’t see any security concerns either, Pakistani establishment is good at playing both sides and any future Chinese threat can be easily countered by shifting the balance back towards the West.
I fail to see any downsides for Pakistan in its close cooperation with China both on the economic and military front.
Exactly. Pak will run bettrer under Xi.
S Qureishi
Same can be said of China Lanka relations.
Low rates some outright grants, infrastructure development.
More specially, no strings like privatizing national institutions, austerity measures etc
I can attest to that. The state of the roads and infra in Colombo that was Chinese made was much better than anything in Indian cities. The highways in SL that I traveled on (Colombo- Jaffna, Jaffna – Trinco) were smooth and spotless. And Jaffna itself was genteel and peaceful, with great roads and construction activity (the odd bombed out building that I expected was very rare but could still be seen). Chinese infra construction is nothing but a boon to these nations, and can only lead to positives.
The Chinese loans carry a significantly lower interest rates than the Paris Club….
Chinese debt agreements come with several parts – a loan agreement and a concessional agreement. If you are referring to the “sticker price”, you are correct. But if you look at the concessions – they have a discounted value that totally alters the overall picture.
Many of the concessionary side-agreements are opaque and are not released to the debtor country’s public for consumption. For most African countries and Asian low income countries like Pakistan, Srilanka – the Chinese have not offered portfolio debt (sovereign bonds) but direct loans. Which means that the repayment is backed by a collateral (minerals, mining rights or land FTA). Look at Page 38 in the below document.
https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w26050/revisions/w26050.rev0.pdf
If it is not clear yet, the Chinese are “exporting capital”, not providing sovereign loans. There is a world of difference between the two. It is not a free lunch.
I think you are naive to think that there is no ‘concessional value’ provided to Western creditors on top of the exorbitant interest rates they also happen to charge that stifles growth and condemns those countries to prolonged periods of stagnation and poverty. Their system is designed to make these loans stay on the country’s balance sheet while the actual funds are siphoned off by the corrupt elite back to Western banks and institutions, all the while collecting interest and receiving political concessions. Just take a look at where the elite in all developing countries stash their money.
China actually builds infrastructure on the ground, that promotes growth. I don’t see what is wrong in exporting their surplus capital. Perhaps the bidding process is not opaque, but things get made, as opposed to the previous creditors where most funds were lost to corruption. This debt trap diplomacy allegations have been circling for years now, mostly by American think tanks with ties to the American security establishment that seek to discredit the Chinese. The results however speak a different story.
In any case, Pakistan is clearly benefiting from the Chinese, which is why the full tilt towards them in the last few years and the results on the ground are visible to us.
@ S Quereshi
You are wilfully ignorant.
In case of sovereign debt, if the debtor cannot pay up – the lender takes a haircut. For the debtor – their credit ratings take a dive. The next loan will have higher interest rates. So this system works with transparently set rates and insolvency declarations.
For the credit lines that China is offering – it is always against a concession. In case the debtor cannot pay, the lender will seize assets earmarked for such eventualities. So you are only mortgaging your family jewels for some cash that you are anyway going to pay interest on.
In the case of sovereign debt, the lender is also interested in the investment model because he is going to take a haircut in case of failure. So they insist on actions (austerity programs) that will mitigate risk for them.
But China is a pawnbroker – they don’t care where you are going to take their money and put it in. They even take concessions in bidding for inflated turnkey contracts to build that asset. So they make money thrice – in interest payments, in executive contracts to build it and also if the asset model fails. Finest piece of shylocking I have ever seen!!
@Ugra
You should look up what happened to Argentina when they refused to pay and defaulted on their sovereign bonds. They aren’t still out of it and the country, which was one of the richest and most industrialized is now perpetually bankrupted with no relief in sight. Creditors don’t take a haircut, they get their pound of flesh and all the ‘concessions’ and ‘assets’ along with the higher interest rates.
As I said, the difference is just cosmetics. If you think the global monetary system is not rigged to favor a few players, then it is not me who is being willfully ignorant.
The Chinese lending model is working for many countries that know the alternative is much much worse.
@ S Qureishi
Haha….you chose the exact example I wanted to show. Argentina defaulted to be confronted with years of currency and fiscal crisis’s. But they did not lose any sovereignty. The debt was restructured to fit a newer schedule – Argentines actually met the targets by late 2006. Debt-trap diplomacy is a reality – ask the Tajiks. What you say may be a matter of perspective. The perennial debtor is always shilled by shiny offerings.
I am not sure how you define ”met targets”. Repaying the IMF does not mean anything, Argentina is currently seeking a $44billion bailout from the IMF, last year it had a run on its banks..
The fundamental issues were never resolved, Western creditors and vulture hedge funds did not take a haircut for their bad investments in Argentina, and even after 2006, Argentina’s external debt has ballooned, it’s deficits up, state assets privatized and cannibalized, and the country is facing another sovereign debt crisis. It’s a shining example of how to bleed one of the richest countries on the planet dry. Not sure how this is better than what China is doing (taking over the reigns of building productivity increasing infrastructure themselves)
Besides, at least for Pakistan, there is little to worry about Sovereignty. Sovereignty is guaranteed by the military, not gold.
Agree with Sbrakkum and Quereshi here. No amount of hand gesturing by Quad/West will help Sri Lanka or Pakistan unless they are willing to put their money where the mouth is. And China is the only country willing or was willing to invest when the chips were down.
Indias joining up with IMF (because of Quad) affiliation, makes sense if you read article below.
Also SL refused a US, Millennium Challenge Corp aid/grant of 400million. Even though the US kept pushing to give it/SL accept it.
===========================
Final question: these austerity and anti-labor policies which the IMF imposes on countries of the global South seem to be well known practices from before the IMF was created, from what you’ve discussed. Did the IMF invent anything new? In addition, in the 19th century, was predatory lending something common, or was direct invasion always the go-to method for subjugating a territory?
Prof Hudson
The 19th century was really the golden age of industrial capitalism. Countries wanted to invest to make a profit. They didn’t want to invest in dismantling an existing industry, because there wasn’t much industry to dismantle. They wanted to make profit by creating industry. There was a lot of investment in infrastructure, and it almost always lost money. For instance, there was recently a criticism of China saying, “Doesn’t China know that the Panama Canal went bankrupt again and again, and that all the investments in canals and the railroads all went broke again and again?” Of course China knows that. The idea is that you make investment not to make a profit on basic large infrastructure. The 19th century was basically inter-state lending, inter-governmental lending, public sector lending. That’s where the money was made. The late 20th century was one of financialization, dismantling the industry that was already in place, not lending to create industry to make a profit. It’s asset-stripping, not profit-seeking.
https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2021/02/michael-hudson-changes-in-super-imperialism.html
I think China colonizing Pak will be good.
That’s what I meant by vassal state. Chinese mercantilist attitudes are quite exploitative – they already show that in every continent. They are going to sink their incisors deep into Pakistan’s sinews. On the other hand, they might throw them under the bus also.
I pointed out Kerala as a illustration to show that even Indian Communism has a leg up over Islamicate/Sharia systems in perceiving societal problems and figuring out sustainable solutions. Kerala went all out in land reform and universal education during the EMS years. They dismantled rent seeking structures and really figured out ways to make people understand their basic entitlements. I have myself dissed some of Kerala’s mechanisms in the past but I am going to put a line in my diary from now on.
@Razib thank you for brining up the fact that the “Sintashta were swarthy” on Nick Barksdale channel.
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXkPxtbQlQU )
Many YT channels bordering on promoting Nordic supremacy use the IE to promote their agenda. Indians having been opposing AIT give away an opportunity to make broader connection to the IE traditions and Vedic ones.
The fact that the “Sintashta were swarthy” need to promoted heavily. The Nordic supremacy YT channels need to be countered.
I did say this in a different way. Yamnaya R1b (today’s ‘westerners’) were not white. They became white when they came in contact with Vincha (I1/I2) people in Europe. So as the original Greeks, who were neither white nor spoke ‘Indo-European’ language.
In the thread: ”The great drama…”, Phy says – ‘From a historic perspective, it is whites who did terrible things to others. And many who recall history fall for the fact of being white as in itself a category of somehow being bad reinforced by actual racists in present world.’
Accordingly, considering the above, the previous quotation is equivalent to what I said before – ‘R1b (who originally were not whites!) started almost all wars in last 5000 years and conducted many genocides since they first came from Russian steppes to Europe’.
One historian writing about Vincha, said anecdotally (I will write about this more extensively) that – “In Vincha lived the last good people”, alluding that that they did not experienced any war for 2000 years before Yamnaya and had achieved the highest levels of technology, arts, architecture and social organisation. After that started a chain of wars and conquerings which did not stop until today.
Also, so as we said that the term ‘Indo-European’ is meaningless, we can say the same for the term ‘Caucasian’, which is used only in US and adopted from the Bible.
LOL, the (video on IE) comments sections shows that seemed to have completely ignored the “swarthy” skin color part and selectively focusing on ~ 25% blue eye color.
eNeM, there is something for you to focus while listening one old Serbian from 1971:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1Da4Ax6dqM
PS. Someone asked me about this old Serbian singer (he is still alive). For music lovers, there is another song from him performed alive 40 years after its recording (in 2014). The song’s name is ‘Odysseya’ (which means an endless life quest and journey). Of course, the seasoned pundits already know that Odyssey himself was a Serbian ancient traveler who was for 20 years returning from the battle for Troy.
The singer at that time had a world tour with other famous world singers – Mireille Mathieu, Dusty Springfield, Tom Jones, Engelbart Humperdinck. In addition, pundits can notice for 2 seconds an Indian violinist playing in orchestra.
The translation of the song – “Odysseya”
Way to fame and fortune, way to the throne
It was always the same from the beginning
The road to hell and abyss, the road to debacle
It was always the same from the beginning
No one knows what will happen, what to expect
Yesterdays leaves us a trail in the hair
The past and the future, the same story
Everything that shines ain’t always gonna be gold
Odyssey, odyssey, the path of thorns or the path of orchids
Odyssey, odyssey, life is just a new odyssey
No one knows what will happen…
Odyssey, odyssey, the path of thorns …
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_P-DylIaNsQ
… and for your perusal”
Rig Veda Mandala 2, Hymn 12
“Even the Heaven and Earth bow down before him, before his very breath the mountains tremble.
Known as the Soma-drinker, armed with thunder, who wields the bolt, He, O ye men, is Indra.”
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Rig_Veda/Mandala_2/Hymn_12
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaVZbtqloDA
https://www.jatland.com/home/Sardar_Ballabh_Bhai_Patel
Sardar Patel was apparently a Jat…
😉
Jatland wiki ah man, such a wonderful resource. 🙂
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/indians-are-claiming-chitral-and-kohistan-too-as-indian-territory.670124/
Amusing thread all around. The commentors don’t realize that they are just as hateful and delusional as the people they are criticizing.
If India is serious about power projection then it needs to stop doing business deals through Western-controlled institutions like the IMF. Ideally, set up your own banking infrastructure like China did with AIIB. India now has foreign exchange reserves around 600 billion dollars, and still rapidly rising. Why not start with a capital base of around 100 billion USD and then start lending it out to countries in exchange for geopolitical favours?
As for Pakistan, it is untrue that China’s loans are predatory. Their interest rates are typically quite low. However, it is very telling that China is now dragging its feet to give out new loans to Pakistan.
China and Pakistan fall out over Belt and Road frameworks
Meanwhile, Pakistan is seeking 12 billions in new loans from the World Bank.
The Chinese have gotten smarter and understood the game that Pakistanis play. They are trying to play both sides off each other and just gobble up more loans, which is inevitably going to the local oligarchs and feudal landlords. So Beijing is now starting to sit this one out. World Bank is going to demand tougher conditions. IMF is already demanding that Pakistan let its exchange rate be free.
It’s a country that is basically a black hole that just sucks resources. I always felt it was way overestimated in international affairs and Beijing is now coming to that conclusion, too. Use it as a hedge against India, yes, but free-for-all subsidies are coming to an end.
https://www.scmp.com/magazines/post-magazine/long-reads/article/3080219/liangzhu-5000-year-old-chinese-civilisation-time
good read. razib you should check out this
Indians should stop Pakistani obsession and instead compare ourselves to China – a worthy rival. Even the richest of India’s small states is barely at the same level as China’s poorest. Let’s fix that.
I really wish there was a vocal section of India’s left that pushed for universal education and large scale labour intensive growth. Instead we have petty union netas and idiotic culture warriors.
The right is weirdly obsessed with playing some intractable 4D chess games while the demographic dividend withers away.
Let’s fact it, Hindus don’t have a unified cultural&national consciousness yet. We’re all insular AF in our Castes&States. Indians just don’t have a unified cultural&historical narrative to rally behind besides “Fuck Pakistan”, and even that rhetoric has its limits.Most South&NE Indians don’t give a damn about Pakistan or the “Muslim Problem”.
“I really wish there was a vocal section of India’s left that pushed for universal education and large scale labour intensive growth”
Indian Right already does that with its Socialist policies, its just that the quality of Govt Healthcare&Education in India remains dogshit due to a lack of funding,manpower&redtape. As far as labour intensive growth is concerned, the Infra&political will just isn’t there. If there was ever a chance to take advantage of demographic dividend, we’re already missed it. Calling it a “demographic disaster” is more apt. India should start investing in block chains and A.I, IT Sector is the only goddamn silver lining we got.
Your statement about South India is laughably wrong.
Laughably Wrong, eh? Tell me, who in Tamil Nadu and Kerala worries about “The Muslim Problem”? I must’ve missed them.
” The Justin Trudeau government in Canada has finally woken up to death threats to Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Indian consul general at Vancouver made by pro-Khalistan separatists on January 26 and provided armed guard security to top Indian diplomats in Ottawa and Vancouver on Saturday.
In a diplomatic note to Canadian foreign ministry, the Indian high commission on February 2 informed that one Inderjit Singh Bains made death threats against Prime Minister Modi on January 26 outside the Vancouver consul general office and posted on the Facebook account of fellow separatist Narinder Singh Khalsa.
The letter from Indian high commission to Canadian foreign ministry makes it amply clear that death threats to the Indian Prime Minister constitutes an act of terrorism and requested that the matter should be thoroughly investigated and the action should be taken against the individuals to mitigate any security risk posed.”
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/trudeau-govt-wakes-up-to-death-threat-to-pm-modi-provides-security-to-envoys-101612678127959.html
These radical extremists must be brought to justice
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XUk240ASDs&feature=youtu.be&ab_channel=ThePrint
good video on the Canada situation and their hypocrisy of supporting such measures when complaining to the WTO but then turning around and now supporting the middle man riot and caste agitation
https://www.firstpost.com/world/new-york-assembly-passes-resolution-calling-for-declaration-of-kashmir-american-day-india-expresses-concern-9278561.html
Just LMFAO. Pak diaspora is about 10x better than Indian one at PR games.
I speculate that in the long run, India and the US will most likely experience severe ideological conflicts. The American elites are the descendants of Macauley, however they want to convert India and its elites towards American rather than British values. Look at Afghanistan to see exactly how successful that’s been.
The most important aspect of the last 3 decades in India are arguably the rise of Hindu nationalism and increasing displacement of Nehruvian values in both theory and practice as economic liberalisation and the growing wealth of India has led to confidence in indigenous Indian values. This caused an increasing rejection of liberal Western values and the universalism that underpins those values.
The core doctrine of Hindu nationalism as espoused by Savarkar is modernisation without Westernisation,. The failures of the West in the past two decades have made it a fair less appealing model.
The only people who hate American lecturing and self righteousness on human rights more than than Chinese elites are Indian elites. I have no doubt, future govs and probably the current Biden administration will use the tools of the American state to push for liberal western values in Bharat.
Unfortunately for them, India’s political and ideological elite are increasingly moving towards various forms of Hindu nationalism in a clear rejection of Ambedkar and Nehru.
Modi will not be replaced by a Brown Trudeau or Macron type. The current conflicts the Indian government has with Twitter offer a small taste of what to come in the coming decades as Indian elites aim to reverse 1757 and push for a neo Dharmic state as a replacement to and alternative to the liberal western model.
Ram mandir may be viewed in future history textbooks as the moment India made a definitive break with liberal western values to pursue its own path to modernity and wealth.
Certainly, long term readers of razib have seen him grow more and more disillusioned with western liberalism particularly in the US as it devolves into some sort of oligarchic neo tribal deconstructionist nightmare.
Perhaps India’s elites will pay some lip service to liberal values for the next decade or two, but I speculate we will eventually see Indian leaders who fully reject John Locke in favour of Sanatana Dharma.
We’re entering a century where non western conceptualisations of modernity are increasingly becoming less abstract and more concrete.
> the rise of Hindu nationalism and increasing displacement of Nehruvian values in both theory and practice as economic liberalisation and the growing wealth of India has led to confidence in indigenous Indian values
I am not convinced. If the BJP loses power (strong chances, what with all the protests that are going on), everything will go back to square one. The elites will come back with a vengeance.
For all desis running on the greencard-hamster-wheel, pay attention to oncoming traffic.
https://twitter.com/danheld/status/1338861737030733828
35% of all US dollars in existence have been printed in (the last) 10 months.
Now this is the kind of alarmist headline hunting tweet, every social butterfly wants to make on her feed. But the underlying sentiments and facts can be vouched for. Go to the St. Louis Fed website and check their time series for M1 supply. The tweet actually underestimates the explosive growth in 2020.
There cannot be a happy ending to this – macro-economically there will be severe consequences for world trade and comparative advantages. Some countries are going to sink and some are going to float. Just keep looking out for the sake of yourselves – the hamster wheel might make an unscheduled stop at the Weimar Republic.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.timesofindia.com/india/climate-change-behind-uttarakhand-glacier-burst-experts-feel/amp_articleshow/80736594.cms
Climate change behind Uttarakhand glacier burst, experts feel
Macron slams Twitter by attacking its outsized power unilaterally shaping in public discourse:
https://twitter.com/Satyanewshi/status/1358409145083256832
This is on the heels of Polish (and soon Hungarian) anti-censorship laws for right-wingers. Are we going to see anything similar in India? Or is Modi too scared?
Joe Biden, the New Brezhnev
The emerging Biden doctrine suffers from the same problem, however, as the Brezhnev Doctrine did half a century ago. Each act of resistance – and there will be many in the years to come – undermines the hegemon’s credibility and self-confidence. After the Prague Spring was extinguished in 1968, and just beneath the drab surface of the reality of life under Communism, anti-Sovietism was rampant all over Eastern Europe. Back then, and for almost two decades thereafter, members of the Politburo were old, sluggish, devoid of ideas, and oblivious to the challenges their hegemony would soon face.
In contrast, America’s current neoconservative-neoliberal duopoly, back in power under the Biden-Harris regime, is neurotically hyperactive and still convinced that global hegemony can be reimposed as a morally mandated, open-ended, and self-justifying mission. This is madness. Leonid Brezhnev and his Politbureau comrades were dull and dumb, but by the late 1980’s they were rational enough to grasp that it was time to fold. Their contemporary heirs in Washington are insane, and therefore they will never go into that gentle night without a bang. But, there is hope. Quos deus vult perdere, dementat prius (Those whom God would destroy, He first deprives of reason).
https://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/blog/joe-biden–the-new-brezhnev/
https://www.dawn.com/news/1604889
“Senate approves bill mandating Arabic be taught in all Islamabad schools”
Less-Muslim region trying to catch up to Alpha-Muslim region.
It seems (based on cursory Twitter reading) that the military is consolidating ever more power in Pakistan with or without the connivance of Imran Khan’s “selected” government. Can Pakistanis (Syed?) confirm if this perception is true?
Perhaps Pakistan could do better under a military regime modeled on China’s communist state. Having single-minded focus on the economy with no distractions of elections, being able to make tough decisions and inflict near to medium term pain for long-term gains are all much more feasible under a (soft) dictatorship than under the tyranny of elections. China has proven this model, and so did other military regimes in Asia (Korea etc). We know that the military is corrupt, but so are civilian politicians, and CCP leaders, but would they be more effective? Sharad Pawar is known to be among the most corrupt politicians in India but even his detractors agreed that he was good for business. The same could apply in this case too. If somehow we could guarantee that Pakistan would become a middle income country in 25 years under a military regime would that be such a bad thing?
This would not work for India for many reasons including the mind boggling amount of diversity across caste, religion, region, language and race, and our unique path since independence (vs. Pakistan’s experience and tolerance /celebration of several military regimes). So really, just interested in hearing what folks of such a model for Pakistan.
https://www.livemint.com/opinion/columns/the-ruling-party-s-odd-inability-to-promote-a-good-idea-11612710184099.html
” In some respects, they are doomed by the very nature of storytelling. A story is more farce than anthropology because of its two requirements—plot movement and entertainment. The moral arc is the easiest way to move a story, and the triumph of the underdog is a combination of movement and entertainment. The triumph of morality and of the underdog are not truths of the world, but two powerful plot devices that the world has forgotten are plot devices. In the face of such devices, the strong and the successful are no match for the lamenters. The strong always tell bad stories.
Also, the party has the talent of preaching to the converted, but not to the rest. Any priest can preach to converts, but it takes a prophet to convert. An organization of priests will naturally make it hard for prophets to rise.One of the reasons why strongmen have risen to power around the world is that intellectuals have become so despicable that even when they make sense, people doubt sense itself. This works the other way round, too. To a section of people in India and elsewhere, the BJP is such a cultural villain that they wish to believe the very opposite of what the party says is good for the nation.”
The pandemic seems done for for now in Delhi.
Took my mom to the hospital for an ultrasound today. So much crowd and little social distancing. The Covid wards are still fairly empty.
Hoping it stays this way ??
Thanks man for some good news. My parents have grown really restless with stays at home and all, and are planning a trip to Kashmir and Shimla. Even though I am vehemently against it. Don’t know if I can convince them to stay back till they get vaccinated.
Saurav/Prats, have you guys been advising your parents on which vaccine to take? We’ve got paralysis by analysis with mine, I’m wondering if either of the available two are better than waiting for moderna.
I am waiting for efficacy numbers for India to be released. Would have defaulted to AstraZeneca but the new results on the South African strain have put that decision on hold.
Also keep hearing from our acquaintances who are ‘in the know’ in the medical community that the Bharat Biotech vaccine is actually superior. I need to investigate this further.
The Novavax vaccine is also supposed to be available widely in the summer.
Was talking to a friend who is a neuro in the US but originally from India about the AZ and Bharat Biotech vaccines available in India. He expressed a mild preference for the AZ one, however would take BB if AZ was not readily available. According to him BB is a “copy” of the AZ vaccine and therefore low risk. He has recommended to his parents that they take the vaccine that is available as soon as it is available to them.
Unfortunately vaccine is another area where i am even more helpless wrt to my parents. Downsides of staying away from parents, i guess.
They are hell bent on getting whatever vaccine comes first out of the door, so that they dont have to stay home.
https://m.economictimes.com/tech/startups/bellatrix-aerospace-is-building-a-space-taxi-for-satellites/amp_articleshow/80740925.cms
Bellatrix Aerospace is building a ‘space taxi’ for satellites
https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/farm-protests-indo-canadians-get-threat-calls-for-supporting-india-s-stance-101612765071904.html
Shocker…
What is the proportion of Hindus among recent migrants from India to Canada?
Right now the number of Sikhs and Hindus in Canada is almost equal. I wonder how the politics there will evolve as this balance changes over the next decade.
I think Sikhs still outnumber Hindus for now. Though immigration from other areas have increased, over the years. From the right ‘Hindu’ areas i mean. Not the ‘woke’ Hindu areas. 😛
The politics might evolve on the same lines of the US though. First gen conservative, second gen Woke-max.
“The politics might evolve on the same lines of the US though.”
I feel like groups can maintain their cultures better in Canada than in the US. Probably because it is still a small country so the pressure to assimilate is relatively less. They also seem to have really bought into ‘multi-culturalism’ – something the rest of the west is moving away from.
This is just the view of an outsider based on observing folks I know who’ve moved to the two countries.
Someone more intimately familiar with the place can give a better idea.
https://indianexpress.com/article/india/anti-cow-slaughter-bill-passed-in-karnataka-legislative-council-7180150/
Anti-cow bill passes in Karnataka. With Saurav’s link to news from Pakistan that they are implementing mandatory Arabic in their schools, we now see two divergent paths despite both societies being quite religious. One is importing a non-native language for reasons related to an identity crisis and the other is protecting animals. Which one is healthier?
I would not put that stark of a difference though. Both regions are trying to ape the ‘best practices’ of a more Hindu/Muslim region. Dont think Karnataka has any history of cow-slaughter and all. Only regions which pushed cow slaughter in the first round around the 60s and 70s like MP, UP etc are the ones which had this attachment to cows and stuff.
…ape the ‘best practices’ of a more Hindu region..
Still peddling your nonsense, huh. In many ways, this is the quintessential “lout-style-thinking” that marxists employ to reduce social problems to monochrome. In reality though, Indian marxists have reduced the cow slaughter problem to a savarna obsession with “culture over economics”. At least they make a well rounded rhetorical argument. You, on the other hand, merely insinuate all the time with no cogent explanation. I guess this is the furthest you can exert.
Its alright. I perhaps present a more crude way, of what essentially are the ground realities of India. Perhaps a more sophisticated person (as you said Marxists ) would present a well rounded version.
Nothing much would change though. Both will result in the same end set.
Its crude, I agree. But the reality is only in your head! 🙂
principia@
Karnataka’s both cultivator castes Lingayats in northern part and Vokkaligas in southern part of the State are devotees of Shiva(linga). Nandi in the form of a Bull is also worshipped along with Shivalinga. That coupled with Lingayath emphasis on vegetarianism means that the population is generally supportive of a ban on cow slaughter.
Shiva + Bull worship is believed to have started during IVC times. The 12 Jyotirlingas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyotirlinga) are considered the holiest places for Shaivism apart from the many Kuldevatas temples (Khandoba, Jotiba, Veerbhadra etc) who are also considered incarnations of Shiva. 9 of the 12 Jyotirlingas are in peninsular India. I don’t think I am the first one to suggest a correlation between IVC shifted population(s) and Shiva(linga) worship. I am not familiar with Tamil/Dravidian politics but we may be mistaking anit-brahmanism with anti-hindu. One can oppose brahmin domination and still be Hindu. I am using Hindu as a broader term for anyone following the native religious traditions of India which includes a tolerance of each other. Some sub-groups want to claim themselves to be more hindu to claim leadership and attendant rent-seeking opportunities.
‘I am not familiar with Tamil/Dravidian politics but we may be mistaking anit-brahmanism with anti-hindu.”
Old trick from Dravidian/Commie playbook. Once the Brahmin is neutralized, the next target will be the second in line Hindu caste. So on and so forth. And this is coming from someone who is not even Brahmin.
Who would know better than us (OBCs) ? When we were voting against the BJP in the 90s for commies/socialist, we were lionized as the rearguard of Secularism. When we started voting for BJP, we now are demonized as foot soldiers of Hindu right.
Saurav, the non-brahmin experience may be sufficiently different in Karnataka in that a monastic framework is very robust and long-standing among lingayats and vokkaligas. Its not a situation where cutting off the head (brahmins), kills the beast, as it may be up north. Furthermore, this system may be, as far as we know, the very reason for the survival and low attrition from hinduism in the deccan, considering islamicate rule was sustained here for considerable time. Another thing, despite the reputation among some that the south in many ways is developmentally advanced, because of our language cocoon, our elites in some ways are not as rarified and deracinated as the lutyens set (i’m not sure “prison notebooks” has a kannada edition). Our socialists perhaps have not had the same contempt for tradition, and there is a genuine conservativism that manifests among the language protectionists. Basically our “Sadashivnagar” crowd doesn’t have disdain for our rural folk in the way south delhi does for its counterpart. These different mechanics lead me to think that the endgame for anti-brahmin feeling differs, and is more an assertion of localism (including devotional practices that brahmins don’t patronize)
I agree and disagree somewhat.
The Southern Islamicate rule dwarfs in comparison to Northern one. So not sure South’s lower attrition is really due to monastic framework or just plain luck. On the contrary the rise of communism and Dravidianism as anti-Hindu forces despite South not having non-Hindu rule for long makes me believe that had Southern India seen a longer Muslim rule the attrition away from Hinduism would have been higher than the North.
Also the OBCs monastic framework are present in North as well. Many of them systematic dismantled but many like Goraknath etc have lived on. Again a long Muslim rule could have had the same results in the south. Brahmins are incidental to the whole process, and cutting them wouldn’t mean much. The current resurgence Hindu right in the North is being driven by OBCs , while Brahmins during the 2000s would vote for Congress etc just like every other caste group.
But yes on the difference of Southern elite vis-v Northern one, i wholly agree. The Southern elite both the vernacular and English speaking are closer to underclass, which the Northern elite can only dream off.
I should have been more specific about muslim rule, refering to the south above the krishna-tungabhadra basin, where it started in 1300 and continued until the peshwai era, and up until independence in those nizami regions. but in support of your point, it seems like the feudal elite in the upper south were still mainly hindu over all those centuries. Would be interesting to dive deeper into whether institutional hinduism is more elaborated in some regions vs others. Another point, the lingayat mutts are highly decentralized, and there are countless small town syndicates. Whats the correlate in Rajasthan and MP I wonder, among people who I interact with from these regions, the opinions of swamis don’t factor into social discourse it my experience.
+1 on Girmit’s point, although it is more of a monastic framework coupled with hereditary priestly sub-caste. For e.g. Lingayats rely on in-house Swamis for all their ritual needs including birth, death and marriage. I am not sure what is the situation in TN, MH or Hindi belt states. I remember back in his 2008-13 term, BSY had started giving government grants to Schools/institutions run by “mutts” of different castes and sub-castes including some considered as SCs. In KA, there is/was an increasing trend of each caste following the established template of monastic framework + priestly class. I am hoping this will reduce the inter-caste angst in KA and hopefully replicated all over India. A lot of caste friction is caused by having to depend on “social betters”.
Tamil OBCs in diaspora seem to observe all the normal rituals like other Indians except that may focus more on using tamil language and resistant to learning Hindi. I believe it is driven more by a desire to maintain their distinct sub-identity.
this measure is more in response to the muslims behaviour in coastal and highlands (malenadu) karnataka, where there have been many cases of cow thefts. there is a bit of friction between hindus and muslims here on this count. also bjp has very deep roots here.
secondly, jds also wanted bjp’s support to hit back at congress and bjp took its support in the bargain.
https://indianexpress.com/article/india/twitter-accounts-block-govt-notice-khalistan-sympathiser-pakistan-7179728/
This is the second time in just four days that the govt is demanding Twitter to take down various accounts. Twitter is staring them in their eyes and calling their bluff. If Modi doesn’t introduce legislation then he is displaying shocking weakness, essentially allowing a private neoliberal company in the US to lord over Indian discourse.
https://www.news18.com/news/buzz/sachin-tendulkars-cut-outs-smeared-with-black-oil-by-kerala-youth-congress-workers-over-unity-tweet-3396776.html
Recently India’s ‘God of Cricket’ tweeted some vanilla comments on how “India issues are internal” and its a sovereign country. Mallus of course couldn’t stand that.
Less Hindu area—> Less Indian. At least the India we know about. Whether that’s a good or a bad thing is upto each individual.
Razib – My posts on this thread have been held up for some reason.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-yoga-american-white-supremacy-michigan-state-university-shreena-gandhi-racism-professor-a8185206.html
Yoga=White supremacy
Cultural appropriation is largely about money and claiming historical prestige, aka increasing soft power, for one’s group. She is mad mostly white people directly profit off of American whites doing yoga. You have to think in a very tribalistic way to consistently come to the types of conclusions the crowd that always sees cultural appropriation in everything tends to come to. Does it exist? Sure. Is it as big of an issue as some of these academics make it out to be? Heck no.
They made an ad on the protests to be shown in Cali during the super-bowl
And unsurprisingly, the outro track has “Jatt” in it, lol
If you’re spending so much money, then the least you could’ve done is make it neat and unbiased
Nah, the cat is out of the bag. Might as well flaunt it.
Lmfao. The egos have peaked
Lol why make it unbiased? It was biased from the start. The whole procurement system biased, in terms who benefits from the current state of affairs. It makes sense the Jatt caste based rentier class that relies on government freebies to run their agricultural lands towards desertification on the backs of migrant and low caste labor, support this cause to protect their relatively higher incomes. It makes even more sense Khalistanis have latched on. This is their moment after decades to have even some sort of spotlight they can spin. They know, .movement wise, they bungled with the Air Canada hijacking, when it became quite clear what their central leadership involvement was. That was their last big moment as a movement. This issue is so easy for them. Their propaganda is strong. The Indian Right can learn a thing or two how to do Western appealing messaging from these people.
Honestly it is just as easy for the people at the protest to take Khalistani money and not support Khalistan as it is for Khalistanis to take ISI and CCP money and not support those illiberal entities. Granted, given the years of targeting killings of Hindus through Punjab in the 80s, the hardcore Jatt supremacism we even see here on any forum board, the entire fake encyclopedias like Jatwiki made online, I think the supremacism runs deep among the Khalistanis and really fuels their hate. The amount of anti bania just studd in Jatt media is incredible.
Buckle up folks, Bollywood and Discovery are now onto AIT vs OIT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wU8TzHv9nW4
https://twitter.com/BajpayeeManoj/status/1358723393307226115
Elite warriors of copper age, The secrets of Sinuali
Don’t understand the desperate need people have for some sort of hindu nationalism or unity. What for? To combat those oh so terrifying mussies? Give me a break. There’s never been any kind of Hindu unity, just different groups of people with their own caste/family/region-specific rituals and traditions. This is the kind of ‘traditionalism’ that’s needed- one that can complement scientific and social progress; not the regressive, neo-fascist ideology that’s promoted by the right and tacitly supported by moderates.
Of course, there are things that need to be changed, namely how much sway caste holds over socioeconomic and political outcomes, but this wish for some unification of all the hindus in the world is little more than aping the abrahamic understanding of the world and history, and even they, after centuries, haven’t been able to figure it out.
If India started an extermination campaign either within its borders or against bordering regions (Kashmir, Pak), just think about the legacy that kind of act will leave behind. Hindus are not the biggest victims of history (not even close), and yet they’ve stumbled into the status of oppressor without having ‘earned’ it. If they acted on this unearned status as tyrant, how would India not become a laughing stock in the annals of history? Acts of evil with none of the ‘benefits’ like science, tech, art, philosophy, etc. No one would want to be associated with hinduism any longer and it would just get absorbed into abrahamic faiths who would claim it as their own (the way white nationalists try to claim the Vedas as products of ‘white’ aryans).
Instead of setting up an alternative to the West and China, hindus just want to show that they have bigger dicks. No vision, no looking ahead, just a fixation on stale grievances.
And think about the disapora. We’re minorities everywhere else in the world; think about how humiliating it would be, having to explain to everyone else how we’re good hindus, not nutjobs like the genocidal maniacs ‘back home’. There goes your pan-hindu unity.
Embarrasseddiaspora your post also embarrassed us by being fact and logic free. Hope the diaspora can produce more independent and intelligent thinkers. You can secede from India or Hindus – we will bear the huge(:-)) loss
You seem to be more worried about your feelings when civilisations are literally clashing. Bhandhu these are civilisation issues.
Do not worry about India, it will survive and thrive.
If Muslims showed even half the guilt and remorse that you did, they’d all have left Islam already : )
No vision, no looking ahead
You sure sound like a policy expert.
just a fixation on stale grievances
How is worrying about everyday incidents involving Muslims killing (over religion)/ forcefully converting Hindus a “stale grievance”?
Just to be clear, nobody here condones Hindus killing Muslims either.
The difference is that the a Hindu killing a Muslim gets way more coverage than the other way around. That’s the annoying and counter-intuitive part. You think it’s possible to build a better society by simply bashing one group’s bigotry, while barely even acknowledging what another religion does? Can’t clap with one hand.
Bash bigots from all religions, why the bias, what good do people think they’re gonna achieve by not condemning assholes from one part of the society? And not being honest also invites more anger.
If you care a lot about what others (I guess westerners, to be exact) think about you, then do what you feel is the best for you. Stop misrepresenting others by calling their grievances “stale” or casually throwing around words like “genocidal maniac”.
//If Muslims showed even half the guilt and remorse that you did, they’d all have left Islam already : )//
This is just another version of ”white man bad bad” that a lot of woke/commies keep harping about.
It’s amusing to see the similarities between Hindunats and Woke/commies
Vedas were produced by Sanskrit speakers. Where Sanskrit originated and who are/were its native speakers? What does it mean Rg and Veda? What does it mean ‘white nationalists’? Which nation?
*The amount of just anti-bania stuff in Jatt media is incredible. The Modi-Shah stuff has an interesting caste flavor to it as well I think. It amounts to the irrational suspicion of an anti semitism towards Jews in the American Industrial Age. No one is saying there are progroms, but there is certainly open bias that in aggregate can even be argued as hatred against Bania origin people.
I always love the disclaimers of “Sikhism is anti-caste.” Yes it is in theory. But in practice, some of the most hardcore casteists, who say stuff about “Chamars, churas, brahmins, banias, etc.” that would make most people’s skin crawl along with the blatant caste based riots to secure disproportionate government benefits, are evidence to all about the retained casteist attitudes. The Indian Constitution is also anti-caste. It doesn’t mean people listen.
https://www.reddit.com/r/india/comments/ld2294/farm_bills_2020_protests/
Incredible. There is actual dissent and constructive debate on the leftist forum. The mods have been sleeping.
https://indianexpress.com/article/india/amarinder-singh-punjab-govt-farm-laws-agriculture-reforms-7180435/lite/
Punjab Govt expert panel urged reforms akin to farm laws but Captain rejected
https://internetshutdowns.in/
Anyone know how exactly these internet shutdowns are implemented? Is it purely central govt. calling the shots, or are state govts. involved too?
Surprised to see Rajasthan at #2
https://aeon.co/ideas/the-right-to-vote-should-be-restricted-to-those-with-knowledge
The right to vote should be restricted to those with knowledge
https://theprint.in/judiciary/how-do-sc-ngt-judgments-impact-the-economy-niti-aayog-commissions-study-to-find-out/601351/?amp
How do SC, NGT judgments impact the economy? NITI Aayog commissions study to find out
NM already posted the trailer link to the upcoming Sinauli show on Discovery Plus.
One of the archaeologists is stating on the trailer – Sinauli is the most important discovery of the 21st century so far. It is going to overturn a lot of treasured theories in the West.
There are feverish attempts to appropriate or spin Sinauli by Western Indologists. But the Indian archaeological establishment is standing firm. I wrote a detailed dissection of Parpola’s contorted attempt to classify them as early Aryans.
https://www.reddit.com/r/BrownPundits/comments/kzswco/a_western_indologist_puts_the_cart_before_the/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
So far the Indian archaeological record was silent on the AIT/AMT question. This allowed western Indologists to get away with the argumentum ex silentio escape card. But now Sinauli is falsifying AIT/AMT in every way possible – the date, the location and the cultural landscape.
There are three pieces of archaeological evidence –
1. The Chariot burial – This is quite the star of the show. Enough has been said on this.
2. Rice in funerary jars @ the chariot burial – This blows up many chestnuts in western Indology. If we all agree with the contention that rice is not found in the Rgveda but only in the Yajur, then we start pushing the dates for Rgveda into the 3rd millennium.
3. Royal burials – A large hoard of weapons and gold ornaments point to a necropolis for the ruling class. This is very much in contrast to Harappan burials.
Early attempts at synchronicity of the textual tradition with the archaeological data shows a close match with burial rites mentioned in the Shatapatha Brahmana.
Ugra, I thought the trailer was presenting a OIT favorable view?
Regardless , it WILL present a native-Indian view. Of how we were the inventor of most things. I dont think ,considering the political climate, anyone would take a chance of doing otherwise.
@NM
Yes, you can say that – a OIT favorable view. More precisely it is presenting the view of the Indian archaeological establishment. The fact that they are doing this is unprecedented. That was what I was referring to….
The Sinauli team’s findings has been swept under the carpet by the Indian historical establishment – it is just astounding. The earliest chariot burial this far in the East has been from China in 1100 BC (Yin dynasty). This one pushes the record back by a full 800 years.
And of course we have Indologists to hand who are just ready with their “ox-cart” sticker. There was no horse in the grave, so it cannot be a chariot. But there was no ox in the grave either. Therefore it must be a motorized cart or perhaps the dead man pulled it himself – the earliest rickshawallah in antiquity!
motorized cart = Aryan Tesla
Many years ago, in Liverppol Indology list discussions , referring to arya on chariots as ‘panzers’ created a storm in the tea cup. It all the heated discussions that followed it was not clear who first used the expression and the blame was laid on many people and the term was repudiated completely. Ghosts of nazis easily falls in indological discussions
=> Tesla = Ar1ayan
https://www.timesnownews.com/mumbai/article/after-demonstrations-outside-his-home-sachin-tendulkar-approached-by-aap-to-tweet-in-favour-of-protesting-farmers/717727
Pathetic. Some leftists know only tribalism and intimidation.
https://www.carandbike.com/news/supreme-court-stops-e-rickshaw-registration-in-india-new-grant-for-ev-registration-2363804/amp
The EV evolution has taken a rather interesting turn in India. Kanishk Sinha, a Kolkata based lawyer who is a patentee for registration of electric vehicles across India for 20 years is claiming to be the only facilitator who can get electric vehicles registered in India. As per his claim, any individual state or union territory doesn’t have the rights to directly register any battery operated electric vehicle in their province. Any EV customer will have to use Amit Engineering’s service to get their vehicle registered, as it has leased the rights from Kanishk Sinha.
The apex court’s order also states that EV registration by any other party, be it state or union territory, will be considered to be an infringement of the patent and thereby of Supreme Court’s order as well. As per Sinha’s claims, the Supreme Court has also put a stay order on registration of EVs by Delhi Government. The court had also asked to stop the registration of electric vehicles in India on February 24, 2020 and it was upheld by the Supreme Court on January 12, 2021. The Delhi government has said that it will stop the registration of e-Rickshaws in the state while the Jammu & Kashmir government has already stopped. Other states are yet to follow the order.
The Sanauli paper, mentions that these are late Harrappan. Around 3800 years ago.
So either steppe people arrived in India much earlier and assimilated with Harrappans or Harrappans had horse drawn chariots.
Either way it’s interesting. I would say this the first challenge which AIT has to consider seriously.
One of the most important statements for sanauli is this by Manjul
“The whip we have discovered is specifically the one that is used on a horse, not a bull.
I would like to understand their reasoning for this.
@ugra what’s your understanding?
@NM
Beautiful find!! The whip used depends upon the psychology of the animal. Bulls are “bull-headed” like the English expression. They do not react that much to pain stimuli. But their attention is broken with a loud sound. A whip for bulls has a snaking arc, it makes a lot of noise but very less impact strength. So the whip is used to get a cracking sound to get the bull’s attention.
A horse is rather sensitive and inflicting pain gets the response. This is quite cruel. Many horses die from repeated whipping. Even today jockeys whip their horses to speed them – and there are calls to ban the whip.
Europeans have stopped using draught animals since a long time. I suspect they no longer understand the significance of different whips. Indians still retain the practice.
That’s why I repeatedly remark on the common sensical approach of the lead excavator, Mr Manjul. This man in the field is worth a thousand scholars who have not left their libraries.
https://www.quora.com/What-does-Rajput-think-about-the-Jatland-website-where-all-the-Rajput-kings-are-being-declared-as-Jats/answer/Amandeep-Singh-Kang-2?ch=10&share=1fbab54c&srid=u6vS8
This dude cites brownpundits in his answer. Funnily enough, those maps are made only with the plurality caste groups of the individual states. I remember when they were first posted a few years ago in a few places.
Aka Punjab is modeled exclusively as Jat and Gujarat as Patel, when for example Jats are pike 25% of Punjab. The other more AASI castes of Punjab are ignored, as usual, including the 30% dalits who have just as much claim to Punjab and model with S Indian dalits. If you took a real average the numbers would be a lot closer. Additionally, a big hoo ha is made for about 15% on average more West Eurasian DNA compared to surrounding area major groups. There is always a crap ton of manipulation with this stuff. Quora is just funny. It, along with reddit, is often a cesspool of confirmation bias circle jerking, granted the whole “bubble” culture of the internet is becoming that way.
https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1693202
Basic necessities index. Bangladesh screwed again by Didi.
Oh Keindie Pump Up The Bong Oh Keinde
Oh Mamata Banerjee
The Serbian Prosecutor’s Office for Organized Crime, in cooperation with the Service for the Fight against Organized Crime, arrested the son of the Ambassador of Pakistan to Romania, who tried to transfer three migrants from Bangladesh through this border crossing to Hungary. The migrants were in the trunk of a diplomatic Mercedes, which was used by the Pakistani ambassador to Romania.
D. Galijasevic, an expert on security and the fight against international terrorism, says that this is an undoubted success of the Serbian secret services and an action whose real details will be marked “strictly confidential”.
– This is not about the “adventurism” of the son of an ambassador or his desire to earn “pocket money” by smuggling migrants, but about a secret operation in which all segments of the Pakistani state are involved. Taking advantage of the EU and Balkan occupation of the corona virus pandemic, this was an attempt to transfer some very important people for the Pakistani services “under the radar” to the European Union. It is up to us to guess whether it was former high-ranking members of the defeated Islamic State who wanted to escape to the West, operatives of some “black op” secret operation or members of some terrorist organizations.
He states that Pakistan’s Intercity Intelligence Service (ISI), currently one of the five most powerful secret services in the world, and that its activities in the Balkans, which began with the war in Bosnia, intensified with the outbreak of the migrant crisis.
– Thanks to the Pakistani secret service – the largest number of former members of the Islamic State managed to avoid lawsuits and get to Europe. The group also includes former commanders or religious leaders, who were recruited by the Pakistani secret service during the war. Depending on the importance and rank in the Islamic State, they do not pass the entire migrant route, but transfer them to the EU as “diplomatic mail” or under other, fictitious names.
Pakistan played an active role in arming the Bosnia’s muslim Army, but also in educating Muslim personnel. At least three generals of the Armed Forces of Bosnia, some of whom are still active, attended the course of their military-intelligence service during the war, from 1993 to 1995, in the Pakistani city of Quetta, which was attended by several current leaders of the Islamic State, Al Qaeda and the Al Nusra movement. Bosnia Defence Minister General Sifet Podzic completed the course, as did Khalid Sheikh Muhammad, the main organizer of the September 11, 2001 attacks on the United States. Muhammad entered Bosnia with a false identity and then obtained Bosnia citizenship. His role in Bosnia was to recruit new and network old members of Al Qaeda. Practically, with the network of terrorists that he organized in Bosnia, the Intelligence Service of Pakistan used Bosnia to attack the Twin Towers and the Pentagon. “American Extreme News” declared the Pakistani intelligence service the best and strongest service of its kind in the world.
Pak ISI is nothing short of incredible. RAW is a comparative joke.
A very interesting survey on Indian-Americans is out. It underlines many of my assumptions. 2nd gen Indian-Americans see a dramatic drop-off in attachment to India.
Hindu Americans give Modi a net approval of +50. The only other religious group to do so are Christians but only at +2. All other groups give him a negative.
There are some signs of “liberal in the US but conservative in India” hypocrisy. For example on questions of illegal immigration, the position taken in the US context is more liberal than when asked about illegal immigration in India.
Finally, US-born Indians are far more dovish on China. About equal shares think the US shouldn’t provoke China by strengthening India’s military as do those who support the US doing that. Among NRIs, more than half think the US should support India against China even at the risk of provocation. Only 21% do not think so.
Indian-Americans show every sign of a classic rapidly assimilating minority. Any hawkishness and cultural conservatism on India is mostly present primarily because of a high immigration rate, which keeps the NRI share fairly elevated. That tends to melt away fairly substantially (but not completely) by the 2nd gen.
An issue I’ve highlighted many times is that Indian-Americans are very split along religious lines. Modi really is “the Hindu leader” with all non-Hindu groups either barely positive on him (Christians) or strongly negative (everyone else).This poll was also taken in Sept of last year, so before the farmer protests. I would assume the Sikh opinion has fallen very rapidly since the poll was conducted.
The question “I have supported religious organizations in India in the last year” has more positive responses from US-born folks (21%) than foreign born (13%). Interesting.
This is just another version of ”white man bad bad” that a lot of woke/commies keep harping about.
It’s amusing to see the similarities between Hindunats and Woke/commies
I’m not even a Hindunat, lol.
And read what I wrote again.
I’m ridiculing that guy’s logic, not advocating for “all Muslims bad” or “white man bad” or anything similar at all.
I’m barely even religious to begin with, I was pretty much a “#atheist #freethinker” type (I’ve gone back to calling myself a Hindu though, only really celebrate Diwali each year though) and very apolitical at one point.
I just have a really big problem with Islam, the stuff I’ve seen happen is pretty alarming, and it irks me when everyone just lets such dangerous behaviour slide (because they don’t want to “offend” someone or come across as islamophobic or whatever else). If having a problem with Islam automatically makes me a Hindunat, then I guess I am one.
Latest manifestation of the big problem, a 17 year old French girl getting death threats and she had go in hiding and change schools since she criticised Islam
France Mila affair: Five held for death threats over video critical of Islam
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55992267
it appears that swapan das gupta is out of pioneer.
@Ugra
> And of course we have Indologists to hand who
> are just ready with their “ox-cart” sticker [applied
> to Sanauli would-be “chariots”]. There was no horse
> in the grave, so it cannot be a chariot. But there was
> no ox in the grave either.
Note the complete absence of remains or representations of horses (or onagers, like those drawing Sumerian war wagons) in the burials of Sanauli – an inexplicable fact when considering that all other implements of war of the local dignitaries buried there were excavated from the site. On the contrary, in spite of a complete absence of bullock remains, too, the presence, on the lid of one of the Sanauli sarcophagi, of a row of figures in relief having a horned headgear (which rather looks like a bovine head with a frond of pipal between the horns, see pic at
https://fl.thgim.com/arts-and-culture/heritage/article24923217.ece/alternates/FREE_810/FL2817 ),
is likely to be connected to the animals that presumably pulled the vehicles buried together with the sarcophagi (and also to certain earlier Harappan iconographic motifs, for that matter).
Let me, thus, repeat once again that the vehicles unearthed at Sanauli were not spoked-wheeled chariots (ratha-s) as those described in Vedic texts. Those solid-wheeled vehicles cannot be considered true battle or racing *chariots* like the ones found at Sintashta (c.2000 BCE).
@Francesco Brighenti
Your logical excursions are bizarre. I will try to explain the engineering details.
The size and weight of the wheel tells you something about the function of the vehicle. Torque requires a force to be transmitted over the radial distance. By increasing the wheel size, you increase the radial distance and also reduce the torque at wheel rims applied to the ground. The smaller the wheel, higher the driving force transmitted to the ground.
Second, a heavier wheel allows you to decelerate faster and take curves, turns, banks easier. Heavy wheels have a higher mass and the mass is concentrated away from the centre of rotation, causing a higher inertial load. If the foot is taken off the accelerator, the the heavier wheel will decelerate quicker than the lighter wheel.
This is why modern fucking trains have small solid wheels! To make them go very fast (top speed) but also decelerate quickly when required.
If I were a war chariot maker, I would fix small solid wheels – I would want to go faster but also I want to lose speed quickly to change directions.
If I were a transport cart maker, I would fix large, spoked wheels. Because going slowly at a sustainable pace is the golden rule. The traditional Indian bullock cart looks exactly like that. Any Indian will tell you that.
The Sinauli vehicle was a war chariot buried with its warrior. The weapons buried in the grave are secondary attestation.
Ugra
Heavy wheels have a higher mass and the mass is concentrated away from the centre of rotation, causing a higher inertial load.
I read with interest till I came to the above.
Any wheel, spoked, solid whatever has its center of mass/gravity the center of the circle/wheel. (9th grade. O/L Physics). If not the wheel is unbalanced and becomes very obvious with a little speed. That why car wheels are taken to be balanced.
Then every engineering claim you make is suspect, though it sounds impressive.
@sbarrkum
I did not say anything the way you have understood it. My mistake was to explain moment of inertia and vector physics in layman’s language.
A solid wheel (whose weight is evenly distributed across the disk) and a spoked wheel whose mass is concentrated only on the rim have different levels of moment of inertia, translational and rotational kinetic energy. It is a standard derivation from Newton’s laws. See below –
http://electron6.phys.utk.edu/phys135core/modules/m8/energy.html
You don’t have to talk about unbalanced wheels. Even car mechanics in the back of nowhere know that.
@NM
> One of the most important statements for Sanauli
> is this by Manjul:
>
> “The whip we have discovered is specifically the
> one that is used on a horse, not a bull.
>
> I would like to understand their reasoning for this.
I think so far Dr. Manjul has made this statement only in this video interview:
https://twitter.com/bhikhshu/status/1173009722766712833
“We got the whip also with the chariot. That whip is like having a portion of leather strip. That type of whip is only used for the horse chariot.”
Also in the famous Daimabad bronze model cart, having solid wheels (just like the Sanauli vehicles) and drawn by a pair of zebu oxen (not horses!), the cart driver holds a whip in his right hand – see pics at
https://www.livehistoryindia.com/forgotten-treasures/2018/04/04/daimabads-mystery-man
P. Yule, _Metalwork of the Bronze Age in India_, München 1985, pp. 30-31 writes that the upper surface of the Daimabad cart’s whip is “cross-hatched.” The latter feature may be meant to represent the crossed leather strip covering the shaft of the whip, quite like in the Sanauli example. Therefore, why does Manjul say, “That whip is only used for the horse chariot”? That’s a mystery to me!
@Francesco
It seems you make a lot of claims while being so ignorant. Why Sanauli find is a chariot?
1. Carts and chariots both use spoked wheels, and they have similar construction; yet they are recognised to be different. The reason is that people can only sit on a cart. One the other hand, chariot allows you to stand. This is the main difference between the two. FYI: Sumerian chariots had solid wheels.
2. The shape of the vehicle found at Sanauli shows that it could only be drawn by a horse/mule. The yoke itself is constructed in that way.
https://theprint.in/india/india-tops-in-asia-with-most-sugar-daddies-unemployment-inequality-cited-as-reason/601856/
based
Lol Trudeau called and asked Modi for vaccines. Modi obliged.
Question for our punjabi pundits – asking as an ignorant southie, what explains the fact that many surnames such as Bedi, Gulati, Kukreja, Suri, Puri, etc. are shared by Hindus and Sikhs? Do say hindu bedis intermarry with sikh bedis, or if not did they at one point in time?
These are predominantly Khatri and Arora last names, and much like Hindu and Jain Agarwals, caste predominates religious sect when it comes to marriage. Traditionally, religious orientation is seen very much as a personal choice in these communities.
This is in contrast to Jat Sikhs and Hindu Jats, who have distilled into two completely different ethnic groups. Traditionally, Jat Sikhs and Hindu Jats will marry neither outside caste, nor religion.
Excellent analogy. Yup Hindu and Jain Vaishya generally mix (some exceptions) marriage wise like Sikh and Hindu Khatris do. Generally though, kids tend to adopt religion of the father.
Thanks, Vikram and warlock!
This has to do with heartlands and recent tribal splits. Heart land of vaishyas is I sould say Southern Rajasthan. That is also the center of Jainism in the past. So it just worked out that way.
In the same way, the Khatri Arora heartland is West Punjab. Interestingly enough,both groups are mercantile. Maybe the business spirit of comprimise also influences it. But most of it is just probably tribalism.
Classic example could be Ambani is a Hindu Vania (gujarati vaishya/bania) and Adani is a Gujarati vania Jain. Intermarriage between the two’s families, even if say they were typical people, wouldn’t be seen as a big deal and considered intratribe.
Btw, I endorse none of this tribalism. I hope people continue to mix freely so these divisions stop.
Well if you want to get into the nitty gritty Mukesh Ambani himself is the product of an inter-caste marriage.
His mother Kokilaben is a Patel, but no one seems to have cared even back in his fathers era and is entirely non-controversial.
Btw I only came across this while reading Hamish McDonalds biography on the Ambani’s.
Where he plays up all the standard tropes about Indias caste system, marriage etc. And seems to think that Dhirubhai married within his caste.
He doesn’t seem to realize that “Kokilaben Patel’ is a different caste from “Dhirubhai Ambani”.
A 13 year old Gujarati school kid wouldn’t make this type of mistake.
I couldn’t really take that book seriously after that point.
There are some interesting texts in newspapers and magazines. The author is an OIT guy but there are some interesting confirmations of something what I wrote few times before. He is probably known to Indian readers and he wrote the paper:
Itihasa Darpan, vol. 25, 1-2, pp. 59-66, 2020
Uttarakuru and the Slavs, Subhash Kak
Or, in the newspaper:
Slavs Searching for their Gods -By Shri Subhash Kak
https://www.hindupost.in/world/slavs-searching-for-their-gods/
He uses the term ‘Slavs’ although this term did not exist before the 7thc.AC. The right term should be ‘Serbs’. But, it is good as far as I could see that he has not used the meaningless term ‘Indo-European’. He listed Slavs’ (i.e. Serbian) gods and found their parallels in Hinduism. We will discuss this in our next discussion topic after linguistics – mythology.
Another important thing, which I wrote before and he directly or indirectly confirmed – Sakas, i.e. Scythians, Yuezhi in China (remember the guy with moustaches who told us that ancient Chinese were Serbs?), Kushans were Slavs (i.e. Serbian speaking tribes).
I have read Subhash Kak’s articles on comparative mythology and symbols. His other articles on this topic are quite interesting too.
If anyone interested, this is an interesting set of recent lectures on IVC archeology and script by Kenoyer.
https://youtu.be/CWeuu2ltl5E
Couple of interesting points:
1. IVC script has indications of multiple languages being written in that. If one watches closely the collection of all symbols of IVC, it is startling how closely they follow the script rules of deccan scripts (e.g., guninthaalu). But these are not all from same region, which means they could be ‘adjacent’ scripts (e.g, Telugu – Kannada scripts). Given the extensive trade networks of IVC, they could’ve been multi-lingual.
2. There is a distinct change in elite between 1900-1300BC even through there is cultural continuity. Kenoyer’s evidence is the decline in “unicorn” seals. However, the religious and ritualistic elements appear unbroken as well as urbanism (e.g. Taxila). From both his lectures, it seems like 2600-1900BC some dynasty united different regional urban centers, but they got back to different regions again after 1900BC which continued up to Buddhist period.
Good stuff.
@ Violet….good source material. Goes into my view list.
BTW, regarding PNG sugarcane in N India (1000 BCE), are you sure that it could not have spread by natural dispersal from Myanmar ? After all sugarcane is just a variety of wild grass.
I wish there was more of these lectures on IVC. It is really fascinating to see how much of archeology is done in the last 20-30 years. It is unlikely any aDNA from IVC is going to be representative since they were mainly a cremation culture.
About sugarcane, PNG is an island. Everything has to leave by a boat. They spread their sugarcane both east and west (to Polynesia and Madagascar).
There is a competing sugarcane variety Saccharum sinense that is widespread in SE Asia. If it was a wild spread, then hybrid would be mixed with this variety too. It can’t be so cleanly different or selective.
@Ugra
> Your logical excursions are bizarre.
> I will try to explain the engineering details.
Well, for what it’s worth you may be an engineer, yet you seem to know nothing about Bronze Age chariot technology.
> The Sinauli vehicle was a war chariot
> buried with its warrior.
This is an authoritative definition of the English term ‘chariot’ given by M.A. Littauer and J.H. Crouwel, two leading specialists in ancient vehicles:
http://tinyurl.com/y59wykz4
“Chariot – A light, fast, two-wheeled, usually horse-drawn, vehicle with spoked wheels; used for warfare, hunting, racing and ceremonial purposes. Its crew usually stood.”
Ancient battle/racing “chariots” had spoked wheels, and the spokes of their wheels were made of metal, not of wood like those — much larger — of traditional Indian bullock carts you erroneously cite for comparison.
@Francesco Brighenti
Are you not up to speed? Littauer and Crouwel have already stated that the Sintashta vehicles are only carts, not chariots!
Yes, you heard it correctly. Littauer and Crouwel called the Sintashta vehicles as carts.
https://mobile.twitter.com/TrueShoebill
You are really throwing sources at me which demolish your case. I expect better!
https://i.redd.it/16jq0ugjyog61.jpg
just lmfao
Woke squad all in. Khalistanis started the leftist domino effect.
https://theprint.in/india/49-of-indian-americans-back-pm-modi-voted-republican-survey-finds/601182/
“49% of Indian Americans back PM Modi, voted Republican, survey finds”
People want low taxes.
@Tpot
> It seems you make a lot of claims
> while being so ignorant.
Thank you for your kindness!
> Carts and chariots both use spoked wheels,
> and they have similar construction; yet they
> are recognised to be different. The reason is
> that people can only sit on a cart. On the other
> hand, chariot allows you to stand. This is the
> main difference between the two.
In the Daimabad bronze model cart, having solid wheels and drawn by a pair of oxen, the driver stands:
https://www.livehistoryindia.com/forgotten-treasures/2018/04/04/daimabads-mystery-man
So, by your definition, is this a “chariot”?
> FYI: Sumerian chariots had solid wheels.
Sumerians had no “chariots”, just battle wagons with four solid wheels which were drawn by four onagers.
> The shape of the vehicle found at Sanauli
> shows that it could only be drawn by a
> horse/mule. The yoke itself is constructed
> in that way.
What is so special in the yoke of the Sanauli wheeled vehicles that would indicate they could be only be drawn by horses/mules (and not by oxen)?
@ Francesco Brighenti
I will answer for Tpot if it is alright.
Take a magnifying glass and look at the Daimabad bronze. I mean it. The yoke harness has two U shaped mechanisms to fit over the Zebu bulls humps. It is very significant.
Now look at the Sinauli chariots. They don’t have the U shaped halter. It is a simple straight mechanism.
Horses have halters tied to the neck and their ribcage to transfer the propulsive loads to the yoke. Zebu bulls transfer the loads via their hump.
It is very clear to a neutral observer. That is why the AIT camp is panicking!! A layman can clearly see the difference.
What is so special in the yoke of the Sanauli wheeled vehicles that would indicate they could be only be drawn by horses/mules (and not by oxen)?
Just wondering wouldn’t the same question be applicable to Sintashta too, how was it answered in that context? (Apart from any horse bones?)
@ Francesco
1. You should look at how chariots came to to be: They were actually an evolution of ox carts. So, your example shows a proto chariot. The reason it is a proto chariot is because it lacks a platform. You can observe this from the pictures of Sanauli chariot and Daimabad proto chariot yourself.
* Further FYI: You should look at the article “The evolution of the double-horse chariots from the bronze age to the Hellenistic times” to learn about the Mesopotamian chariots.
* For clearing away your ignorance
From 9 Ancient Sumerian Inventions That Changed the World
“The Sumerians didn’t invent wheeled vehicles, but they probably developed the first two-wheeled chariot in which a driver drove a team of animals, writes Richard W. Bulliet in The Wheel: Inventions and Reinventions. Goodman says that there’s evidence the Sumerians had such carts for transportation in the 3000s B.C., but they were probably used for ceremonies or by the military, rather than as a means to get around the countryside, where the rough terrain would have made wheeled travel difficult.”
The chariot is exactly the same as the Daimabad bronze one. If it only had a platform, it can be considered to be a proper chariot. Of course, the most effective version of the chariot had spoked wheels.
2. What is special about the yoke? It is the angle that the yoke makes with the ground. A horse/mule pulls from the lower half of the body while ox pulls the vehicle from the upper half. And then there is the whip also, as mentioned by Manjul, the ASI jt. director.
Twitter Blocks Some Accounts in India Again Following Government Demands
From an anonymous government official in the article:
“When it comes to national security, safety and sovereignty, this government can go to any extent as was evident from our action against TikTok,” he said. “We are giving you [Twitter] space to do business in India, not to run its democracy.”
Vinca’s motorized, branded cars thousands of years before Aryans.
https://www.pinterest.com.au/lane8841/vinca/
Height variations:
Hoabinhian hunter-gatherer from Laos 8,000 years ago: 1.76 m
Neolithic Shandong Dawenkou male average: 1.72 m
Han Dynasty Duke of Chu: 1.72 m
Neolithic Henan Yangshao male average: 1.68 m
Paleolithic Ryukyu Ishigaki Shiraho Saonetabaru hunter-gatherer: 1.65 m
Han Dynasty noble woman from Jiangsu: 1.65 m
From the Han dynasty Chu-yen slips, the average height of males 18 years and older was 169.59 cm, which is closer to 5’7”.
This was taken out of 18 people recorded who were also recorded as adult males, which gives a small sample size. However, other evidence of around the time says more or less the same thing.A ccording to the bones excavated in ZhengZhou:
1) Han dynasty adult males average 170 cm, adult females average 161.25 cm
2) Tang dynasty adult males average 166.67 cm, adult females average 156.05 cm
3) Song dynasty adult males average 163.45 cm, adult females 156.01 cm
-from “ZhenZhou study on Han, Tang, and Song excavated tomb bones”
As you can see, ancient Sinitic males and females weren’t significantly taller compared to contemporary populations from other parts of Asia.
According to the above data, all those Three Kingdom generals were likely around 1.70 or slightly less, so a Hoabinhian hunter-gatherer from prehistoric SE Asia can easily defeat any one of them in a one-on-one dual
Who’s on Koo? Who is planning to? Razib?
@NM
[FB:] “What is so special in the yoke of the Sanauli wheeled vehicles that would indicate they could be only be drawn by horses/mules (and not by oxen)?”
[NM:] “Just wondering wouldn’t the same question be applicable to Sintashta too, how was it answered in that context? (Apart from any horse bones?)”
The only remains we have of the Sintashta vehicles are the lower part
of spoked wheel impressions. We do not have remains of the vehicles themselves — including, of course, their draft poles and yokes. However, there is no doubt the chariots were pulled by horses as horse skeletal remains (skulls and bones) and cheekpieces for horse-bits have been found in those burials in plenty. Had the buried vehicles been drawn by bullocks, you wouldn’t have found horse remains and cheeckpieces in those burials.
Thanks
@Ugra
“Are you not up to speed? Littauer and Crouwel have already stated that the Sintashta vehicles are only carts, not chariots! Yes, you heard it correctly. Littauer and Crouwel called the Sintashta vehicles as carts: https://mobile.twitter.com/TrueShoebill .You are really throwing sources at me which demolish your case. I expect better!”
Read better Littauer & Crouwel’s famous 1996 article “The Origin of the True Chariot” at https://tinyurl.com/53qv7gwo ; unlike what is stated in your Twitter source, they never claim the Sintashta-Petrovka vehicles were “carts”, although their (respectable) position is that those vehicles “would not be manoeuvrable enough for use either in warfare or in racing” (p. 52). Littauer & Crouwel point to aspects of the Sintashta-Petrovka vehicles — narrow gauges and short length of the naves — that would make them inherently unstable and unsuitable for speed or maneuverability.
However, in subsequent years D. Anthony replied to this type of criticism (also from other specialists) by pointing out that the first examples of Sintashta-Petrovka chariots published in English had gauges of only about 1.2–1.3 m, whereas six other chariots, still unknown to Littauer, Crouwel and other critics in the mid-1990s, had gauges between 1.4 and 1.6 m and were consequently as wide as some of the highly manoeuvrable Egyptian war chariots — see at
https://erenow.net/ancient/the-horse-the-wheel-and-language/15.php
See also the diagram showing the measurements of the gauges of nine Sintashta-Petrovka chariots in the web article by Anthony & Brown at
https://tinyurl.com/194tqwdc
(scroll down to the closing part of the article)
Therefore, this kind of dismissal of the functional utility of Sintashta-Petrovka chariots does not stand scrutiny.
@Francesco Brighenti
There was nothing remaining of the Sintashta carts. Almost nothing. Just some treads in the soil layer and horse remains and disintegrated boards. There was not even a yoke. Maybe the cart was pushed by men. With so few artifacts, the myth of a chariot origin was started.
Tell me what is the textual tradition of the Sintashta? Did they record the usage of chariots in stories? Did they even have a script?
All the evidence is in India – we have attested textual evidence of use of chariots, we have divinities in war chariots. And the Sinauli chariot is much better preserved – you know why? Because it has copper cladding all over!! Sintashta is a joke. Who goes to war in the Bronze Age without metal? The Sinauli chariot is a real war machine.
Bronze age India pioneered the use of bronze (earliest bronze artifact in the world), one of the nine primary centres of crop domestication, urbanism, dairy farming and trading (Zebu), elephant domestication and one of the 4 centres of independent script development. Multi-disciplinary assessment indicates that India is also an independent centre of development of the war chariot.
https://www.hindupost.in/politics/islamists-issue-pamphlets-asking-marwaris-to-leave-tn/
Radical haleems of Tamil Nadu. Absolutely disgusting.
https://www.opindia.com/2021/02/hafiz-saeed-aide-gopal-singh-chawla-announces-tractor-rally-in-pakistan/
https://indianexpress.com/article/world/pakistan-sikh-girl-rape-5423270/
halal haleem owaisi
@Ugra
re. your comment archived at https://tinyurl.com/y2m32ohu :
Lol! – you have made Sintashta chariots (accepted as such by most of international scholars) into “carts” and, conversely, you have made Sanauli carts (identified as chariots only by some Indian archaeologists who adhere to the “Vedic Harappa” / OIT paradigm and by the Indian media sucking up the Sanghis) into “war chariots”. Congratulations!
As to the one extant yoke of the Sanauli vehicles, it is represented by a crossbar measuring about 95 cm in length – see images at https://tinyurl.com/y6gf7vaf and at https://tinyurl.com/y28h4bk6 (Fig. No. 10). A similar straight crosspiece, although apparently longer than 95 cm (of course, in scale), constitutes the yoke of most of Harappan terracotta model carts, drawn by a pair of oxen, as reconstructed by archaeologists – see images at https://tinyurl.com/1a164rf1 .
So let me once again ask: Why did Dr. Manjul state that the whip and the yoke he excavated from Sanauli burials could only be used in a vehicle drawn by horses?
Don’t generalize, I am Sangh guy, but I am more convinced AIT than OIT. The original Sangh guy Bal Gangadhar Tilak wrote book promoting AIT
@Francesco Brighenti
Your question on whips is already answered. Scroll up. It has to do with animal psychology.
Paradigm changes are frequent in all fields. You want to hold on to certain narratives and disregard newer finds. The excavators have reported their findings in peer reviewed archaeological journals. Sticking your head in the sand is your prerogative. I am not stopping you.
@Francesco
You are intelligent enough to ask great questions; yet you are extremely close minded and biased enough to not even believe what your eyes show! Let me explain to you once again:
1. Why yoke could only be drawn by a mule/horse?
In the google examples you linked, the yoke is close to horizontal for vehicles driven by oxens. This is because oxens pull from the upper half of the body. The yoke cannot be attached to the base of the vehicle, and yet be robust and efficient enough to transfer power to the vehicle. Being at an angle implies that draught animals (horse/mule) that transfer power from the lower half of the body pulled the vehicle.
2. Why Sanauli find is a chariot?
The platform of the vehicle in Sanauli is below the wheel centre. This is what makes a person able to stand and drive the chariot. On the other hand, the platform on a cart is above wheel centre. I know you will ignore and continue with your trope that sanauli find is a cart and not a chariot. I encourage you to just be consistent and call all chariots in the world as carts! Or please tell me why something that can be observed by inspection is wrong.
Images of spoked wheels as well as miniature models of such wheels date back to the middle of 3d millennium BC, including in India. From the standpoint of of historical reconstructions, this means that a wheel with spokes (as well as vehicles with such wheels) was well known to people long before the Sintashtians. The dating of Sintashta wheels with spokes 2-3 centuries earlier than samples from other regions is just an archaeological formality in the discussion about the primacy of the invention of this type of transport.
It must be said that the deserted steppe is much more convenient for archaeological searches than urbanized densely populated areas.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/swarajyamag.com/amp/story/news-brief%252Fdelhi-25-yo-rinku-sharma-dies-after-brutal-mob-lynching-modus-operandi-consistent-with-jihadist-hate-crimes
Delhi: 25-Year-Old Rinku Sharma Dies After Brutal Mob Lynching; Modus Operandi Consistent With Jihadist Hate Crimes
I think this has become a pattern, what’s stopping Amit Shah from setting up a CBI probe team?
@Ex
“Images of spoked wheels as well as miniature models of such wheels date back to the middle of 3d millennium BC, including in India. From the standpoint of of historical reconstructions, this means that a wheel with spokes (as well as vehicles with such wheels) was well known to people long before the Sintashtians.”
B.B. Lal and other Indian archaeologists (as well as, embarassingly, J.M. Kenoyer, too) claim that Harappan terracotta discs of this type : https://tinyurl.com/279hkola would represent miniature models of spoked wheels and would, therefore, “demonstrate” (!) that the Harappans had war chariots equal to the Vedic ratha. Instead, these are most likely spindles for spinning in the form of a perforated disc (English “spindle whorls”), decorated with a radial pattern. Similar motifs appear all over the world many thousands of years before the wheel, let alone the spoked one, existed. You can also find them in societies that never adopted the use of the wheel, such as native North American ones. To claim that these objects represent the spokes of the wheel of a war chariot demonstrates how little critical discrimination is left among these Indian archaeologists.
to Francesco Brighenti
https://www.archaeologyonline.net/artifacts/horse-debate
-Horse has always been a rare animal in India in both the Harrapa and the post-Harappan period.
– The same applies to finds of chariots.
-Horse in Rigveda is more a symbolic animal. Its frequent mention in hymns should not at all reflect the structure of animal husbandry of the Vedic Aryans.
– The composers of the Rig Veda most likely lived in the countryside , therefore there are almost no urban motives there.
@Francesco
If you are asking such basic questions on how archaeologists confirmed the presence of carts in Harappa, then you don’t know anything regarding the topic. To help you, here is a compulsory reading before you embarrass yourself more “Wheeled Vehicles of the Indus Valley Civilization of Pakistan and India”.
FYI not only cart figurines have been found but also cart tracks. Furthermore, if even Sanauli find does not convince you, nothing will.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/time.com/5938041/india-farmer-protests-democracy/%3famp=true
Another Khalistani hit piece from a Soros funded Open Society fellow. Pure bias in this.
Ironic how he frames a Jat Sikh and now pan Jat caste agitation of rentier class farmers who are using extortionist methods to stop opening of markets to protect their freebies as symbols of anti oppression.
https://www.macdonaldlaurier.ca/mli-releases-khalistan-project-pakistan/
Good read.
From the richest state to a poor one. Over reliance on drugs and agriculture. Even the license raj can’t prop up them for so long. But don’t worry. After destroying Punjab’s water tables with inefficient farming and the air with stubble burning,many will use MSP money to send their kids abroad. Leaving the land damaged for future generations.
https://m.tribuneindia.com/news/punjab/punjabs-per-capita-income-falls-to-rs1-15l-lower-than-national-avg-211096
https://www.globalsistersreport.org/news/social-justice/column/why-arent-we-talking-about-farmers-protest-india
“About 110 million farmers have been striking on the outskirts of Delhi for over two months, braving the biting cold and rain in a peaceful protest against the three new agricultural laws that were passed last September. As many as 70 farmers have apparently died during the protest. Families of farmers who died during protests will not be compensated, the federal government told the lower house.”
110 million! LMFAO. Flagrant misinfo.
https://www.reddit.com/r/india/comments/li3w2r/rinku_sharma_murder_case_4_held_cops_say_business/?sort=new
So many comments deleted! LMFAO. Randia outdoing itself lately
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/biden-needs-a-new-pakistan-policy-this-is-what-it-should-look-like/
https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Belt-and-Road/China-moves-for-more-control-over-Belt-and-Road-in-Pakistan
Parallels to Imperial Japan’s Manchuria