Open Thread – 09/17/2021

I’ll probably be writing a piece (free) for my Substack on caste so that people can use it for a reference. The lie that it was “invented by the British” seems pretty pervasive and will spread in the next few years for various ideological reasons, so it is useful to always remember the truth even as the lie becomes regnant. Falsity always collapses, but it takes a while.

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Rose
Rose
2 years ago

@Razib How much ANE(Ancestral North Eurasian) admixture do Jomons have?

And do all Europeans and other West Eurasians have some East Eurasian admixture via ANE admixture?

And are pygmies the only Africans to lack Eurasian admixture?

Prats
Prats
2 years ago

The lie that it was “invented by the British” seems pretty pervasive

Among what group?

Most caste groups have elaborate lores on where they came from and in most cases this precedes the British.

Bhimrao
Bhimrao
2 years ago
Reply to  Prats

+1
Who believes this in India?

Narasingha Deva
Narasingha Deva
2 years ago
Narasingha Deva
Narasingha Deva
2 years ago
Narasingha Deva
Narasingha Deva
2 years ago
Ugra
Ugra
2 years ago

….the lie that it was “invented by the British” seems pretty pervasive…

This is quite widespread. I have seen it being articulated in a non-ideological setting. My own community has been chronicled since the Chola years. But perhaps, just as sociological phenomenon are first born in the imagination preceding reality, they too die first in the imagination before their earthly demise??

Sumit
Sumit
2 years ago

Does the steppe/ ivc /aasi – caste correlation still hold of we remove Brahmins and Dalits from the analysis?

And in NW India / Pakistan just remove Dalits.

To what extent is there still a pattern ?

The rationale for removing the Brahmins is that I think groups of them spread out from around Haryana/ west up/ Uttarakhand and proselytized the Hindu synthesis in the rest of India and also SE Asia following in the footsteps of the Buddhist missionaries.

For Dalits I think most Dalit groups were basically hunter gatherer tribal groups that entered agrarian societies fairly late as the farmers slowly encroached upon the forests. So they have high AASI.

I think if the correlation is greatly diminished we should consider the impact of the process of “sanskritization” and “rajputization” as historical means for social mobility for middle caste groups.

If this is the case the I think of follows that the extensive Anthropological classification by the British for eg in the “castes and tribes of…” series (worth a read btw, and freely available in public domain if interested in the caste system) during the peak of racialist thought in the west played a role in ossification of the caste system.

And there was a natural tendency to attempt to exploit caste divisions in India by the British to suppress rebellion and maintain control.

Of course this is a much, much, milder claim than the “British created it”.

But just a thought as to why this idea persists.

girmit
girmit
2 years ago
Reply to  Sumit

Sumit, I think you put it well. It wasn’t necessarily a conspiritorial plot by the brits to fortify caste division, but a useful lever, situationally. More than anything the colonial period was coterminus with (not necessarily the prime mover behind) modernization , social science shaping elite understanding of groups, growing literacy and mass communications. It seems inevitable that religion and race would become primary filters of categorization for a period. My sense is that caste and jati are institutions like all others, with long life cycles , and smaller ones within. Almost every subcon origin person here, would find their own great grandparents as early participants in caste associations that had their own trusts and newsletters and marriage bureaus. Likewise for some or another mohammedan society, or sub ethnic association. This seemed to be a phenomenon that transcended south asia though

Jiku matt
Jiku matt
2 years ago

Castes existed when hunter gatherers moved to domestication of animals and agriculture.. Even IVC had herders, farmers, potters, brick makers, architects, traders, metallurgists, fishermen etc.. As there were no large schools, knowledge would have to be transmitted hereditarily from parent to offspring.. So communities will form and knowlege would be transmitted within the community.. Maybe later on the castes became rigid and hierarchial because of adopting varna system..

Marco Navarro
Marco Navarro
2 years ago

Found an interesting series of articles (mostly) about Indian wrestlers in Europe in the early 20th century. Seems like they were by far the best in the world at the time.

https://www.ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_noble_0502.htm
https://www.ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_noble_0602.htm
https://www.ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_noble_0702.htm
https://www.ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_noble_0802.htm

If ~3 million people in Mongolia can get golds in combat sports, India and Pakistan have no excuse, considering what Punjab Kashmiris alone were accomplishing 100 years ago. Also, someone needs to make a movie about the Great Gama. It’d write itself.

thewarlock
thewarlock
2 years ago
Reply to  Marco Navarro

True. Net good you cited this. But on another note: this is also type of stuff that Birdari ethnosupremacists use to further latch onto their superiority biases. They love to cite 19-20th century texts that show how the British felt they were superior physically and in character, relative to other Indians.

Also sports technique and tech has come a long way. Heavyweight wrestling is a lot different now than it was back then. Even stuff like swimming was different. A Hawaiian dominated some of the early records, despite his short torso and long legs, a structural kiss of death in swimming. But sports participation and tech was not nearly as optimized. His times are worse than high school ones today. Nonetheless, your original point about no excuses about ameliorating the pitiful medal counts still stands.

Vikram
2 years ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUc4V3sB7Mg

Nice idea, combination of nostalgia with newness. Glad to see a much more inclusive skin palette in the new ad, especially for the girl.

My only complaint is that the pull shot was rather floppily executed by both actors.

Ugra
Ugra
2 years ago

Indian geneticist Niraj Rai makes some of the most clearest articulations so far on the state of archaeogenetics in India and new finds. In an interview with Arihant Pawariya of Vaad, a Youtube channel, he gives insight into the latest developments in the field.

1. A South Indian megalithic site has yielded samples from the period 1300 – 500 BCE.
2. Sinauli has yielded two samples – one of the warrior from the coffin next to the chariot and a female burial. Interestingly he dates this to 1700 BCE.
3. A 1000 BCE PGW site (Abhaypur, Bareilly) in the Gangetic Plains has yielded a sample.
4. A 200 BCE site from South India has yielded samples – it supposedly throws new light on ANI-ASI mixing.

Very significant assertion from Niraj Rai – no Steppes signature until 700 BCE in North India – this is critical, it starts to peak only in the latter half of the first millennium BCE. He stresses this quite vocally. Promises that the next 2 years will be “breakthrough years” for Indian history.

My own thoughts – The second half of the first millennium BCE is one of the most important periods of Indian history. Buddha, Mauryas, Chanakya, Panini, Ashoka all lived in this Era. The Buddha tells his disciples that Yavanas/Yonas do not have the varna system. Chanakya complains about foreign influence in Takshashila. This is the start of the invasions of the Sakas, Kambojas, Greeks and Pahlavas into India. Finally the genetic data starts to correspond with the archaeological and textual tradition of Ancient India.

anuragsharma
anuragsharma
2 years ago
Reply to  Ugra

And chanakya’s people showed most interest in mixing with them?Because genetics clearly is so.

DaThang
DaThang
2 years ago
Reply to  Ugra

The only pre-700 BC samples come from Sanauli 1700 BC right?

Ugra
Ugra
2 years ago
Reply to  DaThang

@DaThang

The PGW site in Bareilly from 1000 BCE has yielded a sample. So that is the one closest to 700 BCE. Interestingly Niraj Rai says that their conclusions are arising from a time curve. Apparently Steppes signature is nowhere as strong in 1000 BCE as it is today in modern Indians.

@Ummon

Swat Valley is not North India! I am not talking about political boundaries. It does not even fall in the same Koppen classification.

@anuragsharma

Chanakya’s fulminations about foreigners is well documented. I am pretty sure he was indeed reacting to the mixing of people and the dilution of Indic authority in those regions (Takshashila).

DaThang
DaThang
2 years ago
Reply to  Ugra

It is weird to pick 700 BC specifically then, why not 800 BC or 900 BC. Like do they have a sample immediately after 700 BC which yields higher steppe ancestry? As far as I can see, the list only has two north Indian sample times: one time section is from 1700 BC and the other from 1000 BC. Other than there, there are Swat samples but they aren’t North India so I’d think that they wouldn’t include it, saying 700 BC sounds arbitrary. Also, any idea when these will be published?

Ugra
Ugra
2 years ago
Reply to  DaThang

…It is weird to pick 700 BC specifically then, why not 800 BC or 900 BC.

Because…..this is my speculation…..the PGW culture ends by 600 BCE roughly in an abrupt manner. It is quite normal to assume that the sample is representative of the archaeological culture. It is the same assumption used by Shinde/Narasimhan for the Rakhigarhi sample. Steppes introgression was assumed to be after the end of Mature Harappan (1800 BCE) even though the Rakhigarhi Woman is from 2300 BCE.

I assume that the paper will be out in the coming year. They are concentrating their efforts on the R1a1 origins study. This is something he talked about at length (which I omitted in my original post). They sampled a massive 10000 participants (!!!) from India/Pakistan/Bangladesh, of which more than 3000 turned out to be R1a1. His words – they are concluding that R1a1 has a subcontinental origin.

DaThang
DaThang
2 years ago
Reply to  DaThang

I don’t trust modern diversity derivates, people used to and still believe that R1b was West Asian on that basis. The south Asian specific R1a is descended from clades recently outside of South Asia and if the deeper R1a* itself originated in India then I’ll believe it once I see a 12000+ year old south Asian R1a.

Ummon
Ummon
2 years ago
Reply to  DaThang

Yeah the one finding worth highlighting there is the Bareilly find (and if verified could mean a large revision to the prevailing ideas about the PGW-associated timing of Vedic migration from the upper Indus Valley to the Ganga Valley).

It was always an open question whether Sinauli had significant steppe rulership, and this finding seems to confirm that it didn’t.

Ummon
Ummon
2 years ago
Reply to  Ugra

Gandhara was not part of North India! We would be bereft of such high IQ insights without Ugra’s presence.

Ummon
Ummon
2 years ago
Reply to  Ugra

You don’t consider the Swat samples to be from “North India”?

Brown_Pundit_Man
Brown_Pundit_Man
2 years ago
Reply to  Ugra

The Buddha couldn’t have said that the “Yavanas have no varna system,” because Buddha’s era was from around 500 BC, and the Greeks only entered India with Herodotus around 400 BC. The Indian word for “Greeks” was actually “Yavana” (which is a cognate of “Helenic”).

Ugra
Ugra
2 years ago

@Brown_Pundit_Man

Yona/Yavana is a catch-all term for many people from the Northwest of India. It is first seen in Mahabharata. We can hardly pretend that MBh took place after Greek invasion.

Buddha indeed talked about Yavanas, Yonas. You can read about it in Assalayana Sutta. Link below –

http://www.suttas.com/mn-93-assalayana-sutta-to-assalayana.html

girmit
girmit
2 years ago
Reply to  Ugra

@Ugra
If Mahabharata was an oral tradition, with perhaps more lax version control than liturgical texts, could we consider that the Yona/Yavana references may have been later addendums? Wouldn’t the epics themselves, if based on pre-bronze age events, have been composed in a proto-prakrit/sanskrit ? This would allow us to retain the possibility that the group was actually hellenic

Ugra
Ugra
2 years ago
Reply to  girmit

It’s quite possible. Please keep in mind that the Bhandarkar Institute published the BORI critical edition after parsing all versions throughout India.

Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago

Any idea what’s going on in Sri Lanka. Sbrakum? Emergency and shit !

sbarrkum
2 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

Emergency for food and price control(1). Even that not very draconian. If authority gets tip on hoarding or selling above control place gets raided. Essentially clamping on “war time” hoarding profiteering(2). If it is large scale hoarding, confiscated and sold. Small shops selling above price control, then a slap on wrist. eg in my Village, price of Sugar went from LKR 120 to LKR 240. Its now 140, about LKR 20 above controlled price of 120. The villager seem ok withe small increase in price.

Retuers steep devaluation of its currency due to a foreign exchange crisis.. There has been an approx 10% (LKR 20) increase in USD to LKR rate since Raster Bomb. That said imports of much has been stopped (eg vehicles, electronics and even fertilizer). Govt saying going organic, to be seen how this works out at next rice harvest, around end of Jan. To open letter of credit (LC) for allowed imports some long process to get approval.

SL has lost more than 50% of its foreign exchange income. (Tourism and some mid east remittances mainly)

Two options
a) Sell some assets or take on more debt to fund consumption (Thats what the previous liberal, west oriented govt did. Sold Hambantota to fund consumption for political gain.

b) Tighten our belts, cut off imports and save whatever fx we get to service our debt. Then once things turn around take debt to diversify economy, specially self sufficiency in food.

Hoju
Hoju
2 years ago
Reply to  sbarrkum

Karma for Tamil Hindu genocide and ongoing persecution.

Valga Tamil Eelam!

Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago
Reply to  Hoju

This escalated quickly…

sbarrkum
2 years ago
Reply to  Hoju

Lot of bad karma in India noh. High infant mortality, starvation the works.
Is that because of persecution of muslims and dalits.

Suggest, just give Kashmir to Pakistan and send the muslims there.

Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago
Reply to  sbarrkum

I think this would have been a good bargain in 47 itself, let alone now…

Hoju
Hoju
2 years ago
Reply to  sbarrkum

You are lucky you lot picked the AASI-est Hindus to genocide. If this were Kashmiri Pandits or even maybe the Bengalis, Sri Lanka’s fate would be probably be different. But if ands buts were candy and nuts…

Valga Tamil Eelam!

Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago
Reply to  sbarrkum

I doubt that (Kashmiri Pandits or even maybe the Bengalis, Sri Lanka’s fate would be probably be different.) You over emphasize N-Indians solidarity for Bengalis/KPs. KPs have been finding that out lately, same with Bengalis in Assam.

Bangladesh/Pakistan/Kashmir wars are fought for multiple reasons. Least among them is Indians sympathy for Bengalis/KPs

sbarrkum
2 years ago
Reply to  sbarrkum

AASI-est Hindus to genocide. If this were Kashmiri Pandits or even maybe the Bengalis, Sri Lanka’s fate would be probably be different.

I hope you recall the AASI-est flip flop brigade, aka the LTTE gave the Indian Sikhs a run for their life. Then on your home turf with the help of Tamil Nadu Tamilians, the LTTE bumped off your Indian President.

Those who have been supposed to genocided live a better life than in India. Better life expectancy, literacy, toilets at home (no necessity to shit on street). Get this 30+% live in the south among the genocidal Sinhalese. Some run the biggest conglomerates, like John Keels (Ken Balendra), Maharaja (Kili Rajamahendran). Intermarried too with Sinhalese. Plenty like me half breed mutts.

Hoju
Hoju
2 years ago
Reply to  sbarrkum

“Those who have been supposed to genocided live a better life than in India. Better life expectancy, literacy, toilets at home (no necessity to shit on street). Get this 30+% live in the south among the genocidal Sinhalese. Some run the biggest conglomerates, like John Keels (Ken Balendra), Maharaja (Kili Rajamahendran). Intermarried too with Sinhalese. Plenty like me half breed mutts”

Most people in most places live far better lives than Indians. Wouldn’t be surprised if Tibetans, Bengalis, Tutsis, Jews, Romas, Native Americans, etc., other victims of genocide and other marginalized peoples are nevertheless living far better than Indians. It’s very difficult not to.

“I hope you recall the AASI-est flip flop brigade, aka the LTTE gave the Indian Sikhs a run for their life. Then on your home turf with the help of Tamil Nadu Tamilians, the LTTE bumped off your Indian President.”

LTTE did big things, this is true.

Valga Tamil Eelam!

Hoju
Hoju
2 years ago
Reply to  sbarrkum

To clarify i didn’t mean LTTE or tamils are weak but that other Hindus would have cared more if they were less aasi because of racism.

sbarrkum
2 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

The whole problem is Sri Lanka imports most of it basic necessities. Wheat and lentils, staples in SL cannot be grown in SL. Much of these are staples and even for rural poor villager.

Rice, we can be self sufficient with the right incentives and subsidies.

Any other “solution” is basically rearranging deck chairs couched in high flow economic verbiage,

The west and opposition (western liberal) are predicting dire situation. IMF has offerred economic package, which has not been accepted with a “let us see/think about it” Trying to gain control and dikat of the west. Either make the Rajapakses more compliant to west,or topple them by talking up a “market crisis”.

There were many protests, eg teachers wanting a raise (been an issue for 10 years now). I guess wanted the govt use the jack boot of the army and suppress. I too thought they would do it. Then could have accused govt of being authoritarian and dictatorial. Instead govt sent a few leaders into quarantine for breaking quarantine rules. Many protestors got COVID and that was the end of protests.

(1) Mainly, Sugar, Rice, Milk powder.
(2) Wholesaler Hoarders complaint is that they imported at higher price. Pile of bullshit. a) They are hoping USD to LKR will drop precipitously (has not) b)creating artificial shortages.

Links in next reply. Links slow approval of comments.

Bhumiputra
Bhumiputra
2 years ago
Reply to  sbarrkum

why can’t SL grow Lentils? Looks like a coastal diet of fish + rice is the only sustainable option for SL.

sbarrkum
2 years ago
Reply to  Bhumiputra

The problem in SL is that imported essentials are cheaper than produced/grown in SL. High labor costs being the reason. So need protectionist tariffs.

Looks like a coastal diet of fish + rice is the only sustainable option for SL
We have plenty veggies, coconut and pulses other than lentils. Also egg, meat, chicken, beef and pork (no shortages). Typical lunch will consist of small amount of fish/meat/egg and one veggie in poor house hold. In rural middle class, three veggies. These days I have day labor (pay LKR 1,500/USD 7). They bring breakfast, sometimes rice and curry. I think its better than what I eat normally. The woman cooks lunch for all, so I am getting decent meals.

With the exception of lentils and bengal gram, many of the traditional pulse crops such as green gram, black gram, horse gram, toor dhal and cowpeas can be cultivated successfully in Ceylon.
All above more expensive than imported (Australia of all places) lentils

surasena
surasena
2 years ago

Twitter Hindus like to say this- they don’t want to accept that something morally bad was present in the All wonderful ancient India. They have an aversion towards anything foreign- be it the Muslims or the British.

This is a problematic mentality- but at least they are disassociating with this practice in a way. A section among these twitter Hindus is even worse- They also think that ancient India had no ills like the former- but they do think that caste was an Indian concept. This combination leads to a listing of benefits of a birth based caste system and why it is still adequate to have it. Razib has talked about this to Kushal in a few podcasts.

We need to accept that yes, this is a major social problem associated with India/Hinduism ; and work towards eliminating it. People say that this is intrinsic to Hinduism. We don’t need to outright deny this and say “nooo the British made it
to divide us we wuz the best society to ever exist before they came”.

Caste system indeed was intrinsic to Hinduism for a long period of time. Now Hinduism
isn’t a dogmatic religion. It historically had space for contradictory thoughts- even the
fundamentals changed from time to time.

Why can’t we do the same with caste- It wasn’t there for all of Hindu history. Why should it be there in the future? Even if it was there for all of the Indian history- it
doesn’t mean we don’t have to be a dynamic society. Large efforts have been made to
do so and caste discriminations have reduced to a good extent. There is even space for
amendments.

There is still a lot more to do – it’s a very rooted system. But for that we have to accept
that it existed, and still exists. And we have to prove that India isn’t a static society
by trying to remove a near- constituent theme of the Hindu customs.

thewarlock
thewarlock
2 years ago

The title vs. Quote from article

https://theswaddle.com/hindutva-extremists-are-attacking-anti-caste-music-in-punjab-the-hate-is-not-new/

“Earlier this decade, Rajni Thakkarwal was physically attacked by a group of Jatt boys during a performance in Phagwara to prevent her from singing chamaar-pop songs. (“Chamaar-pop” turns the caste name — often used as a slur by dominant caste people — into pride-filled identity assertion.)”

“One such example from Malwa region is the music of Bant Singh – Dalit farmer, fiery singer, and political activist — which is emblematic of the upper-caste attacks on Dalit political and cultural assertion. He sang the revolutionary poetry of Sant Ram Udasi from a young age. To silence his activism, Jatt land-owners gang-raped his minor daughter. When he secured a conviction against them, Jatt men from his village battered his limbs, ultimately leading to amputations. Singh continues to be a singer-activist, now known by the sobriquet “Singing Torso.””

Lol wtf. This is Jat Sikh on Dalit violence in Punjab. Where the hell is Hindutuva in this. Everything is blamed on Hindutva. Reality is S Asia is fucking tribal. Caste is in the DNA of S Asia, including throughout Indic Pak. Hindutuva, if anything, especially with its new subaltern appeal, is fighting this.

surasena
surasena
2 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

The Jatt Sikh diaspora repeatedly mentions how their religion is morally much better than the regressive Hinduism because of its egalaratianism.

The funny thing is that the Punjabi UC Hindus(Brahmins, Khatris, Aroras, Banias) are less casteist than the Jatt Sikhs

Shashank
Shashank
2 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

Punjab had a violent past. Remember Nirankari Sikhs were also mercilessly murdered during insurgency. That conflict never ended, it morphed into another form as of today. The root of the problems have never been addressed which is the land reforms implementation.

Narasingha Deva
Narasingha Deva
2 years ago

https://theprint.in/opinion/whatsapp-to-telegram-pakistan-backed-militant-groups-pushing-taliban-agenda-in-kashmir/735182/

WhatsApp to Telegram, Pakistan-backed militant groups pushing Taliban agenda in Kashmir

Narasingha Deva
Narasingha Deva
2 years ago
Brown
Brown
2 years ago

babul suprio has joined tmc. at last bengal is like all of india. hope this will stop the bannerjees/chaterjees lecturing all and sundry about the ” bengali exceptionalism”

Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago
Reply to  Brown

It also tells about how hindutva can never really grow in less-Hindu regions and those Johnny come lately hindutva guys from these regions are just here for power and have no ideological commitment to it.

thewarlock
thewarlock
2 years ago
Reply to  Saurav
Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

Almost all. Contrast it to Hindu regions, where even opposition to BJP has to be Hindutva

Narasingha Deva
Narasingha Deva
2 years ago

https://theprint.in/politics/humiliated-thrice-in-last-2-months-amarinder-hands-in-resignation-as-punjab-cm/735843/

‘Humiliated thrice in last 2 months’ — Amarinder hands in resignation as Punjab CM

One of the few good people in congress….
He should join AAP to ensure it’s defeat

Jezza
Jezza
2 years ago

Serious question: Would AAP be any worse for Punjab than the other parties?

Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago
Reply to  Jezza

If nothing it will bring AAP a peg down when they rule a real debt ridden state and not a UT where they don’t have to care about revenue , policing and Infra

Jezza
Jezza
2 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

Thank you for your answer.

Narasingha Deva
Narasingha Deva
2 years ago
Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago

https://twitter.com/iyervval/status/1439231684289859588?s=21

“ WB police rocked up in UP to arrest a BJYM leader who had offered a ₹11 Lakh bounty on Mamata’s head. The WB police officers were locked up & thrashed mercilessly. UP police had to rescue WB police – notice the BJYM leader asks “aur khela chahiye”? ???“

Sumit
Sumit
2 years ago

Historic fortress destroyed by Taliban 2.0

https://mobile.twitter.com/BamiyanLove/status/1438421874854223872

New Taliban is old Taliban.

Bhimrao
Bhimrao
2 years ago

https://www.dawn.com/news/1646925/pakistan-cricket-set-to-incur-huge-financial-reputational-losses

“Furthermore since the Indian lobby is strong at the ICC, so it will not be easy for the PCB to win any case of compensation against New Zealand.”

Isn’t India famously known to take the side of Pak-Ban-SL-Afg at ICC. Afg and Ban got their undeserved test status because India willed it.

How is India involved in any of this? Also remember not so long ago PCB sued BCCI and lost, burnt bridges?

###

btw, I think BCCI should have been forced to forfeit the test match they abandoned and made to pay compensation. Test>>>>>IPL.

Hoju
Hoju
2 years ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMfRBfRXVhU

Drive in Mumbai.

Mumbai’s skyline is pretty awesome. And it’s organic due to demand rather than artificial prestige projects like in Dubai.

In a few decades, I think Mumbai can compete with the best of them in terms of its skyline.

Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago

https://theprint.in/india/book-on-kashmir-puts-authors-father-an-ex-raw-official-in-spotlight/735700/

Book on Kashmir puts author’s father, an ex-RAW official, in spotlight

Sumit
Sumit
2 years ago

What slightly crazy historical narrative theory do you have that you can’t quite prove but think is worth considering ?

Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago
Reply to  Sumit

If Gandhi wouldn’t have been as killed, india would have had a right wing govt in 70s -80 s after the death of Nehru.

Had 9-11 not happened, US would have come closer and closer to Putin, and would have played similar role what China did in the 70s for usa against Ussr, against the current Chinese.

Narasingha Deva
Narasingha Deva
2 years ago

I had always assumed that english word grass and hindi ghass both ultimately directly derived from indo European words. My reasoning had been that while the languages were very separated, if it made sense for one word being this similar it would be grass because of the role it played in steppe societies. But I just saw that the Sanskrit word for grass is totally different from these two. Does anyone know how did these two words end up being so similar

sbarrkum
2 years ago

english word grass and hindi ghass
In sinhala trees=ghass tree=gaha

Brown
Brown
2 years ago

https://www.asianage.com/india/all-india/180921/iaf-signs-deal-with-french-air-force-to-purchase-phased-out-mirage-aircraft.html

is there a feeling that retrofitted second hand mirages are good for fighting pak? might be a good move!!!

ABC
ABC
2 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

Do you know about Archive.is? You can bypass paywalls with this.

Narasingha Deva
Narasingha Deva
2 years ago
Hoju
Hoju
2 years ago

Walk through an idyllic commie village in the Western Ghats in southern Kerala. Feels a bit like rural Bali.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCGKY9yiFK0

Vikram
2 years ago

https://scroll.in/article/1005372/the-migrant-workers-who-never-went-back

We are going to end up with an Eastern Europe/US Deep South situation in the East unless large metros (5 million + with density above 3000/km2) can emerge. Once the demographic dividend ends in Eastern India, large scale depression will set in an already poor region.

The irony here is that while migration is great for the individual, it harms the society in the long run. Ultimately you need your most driven, enterprising individuals to replace imports and add value to exports. If instead, they spend their time and energy finding a way out, the economy is never truly going to grow.

girmit
girmit
2 years ago
Reply to  Vikram

Bhubaneswar seems geographically well positioned, and has a certain level of infra in place. Don’t know about the quality of ports in proximity though. Oriya ppl seem receptive enough to Jharkhand folks as well

Vikram
2 years ago
Reply to  girmit

Paradip is a good port in Odisha. But this is more about people’s qualities. Odias are not a very entrepreneurial people. Despite the state being coastal, it doesnt really have a maritime, commerce based culture. Pretty feudal.

girmit
girmit
2 years ago
Reply to  Vikram

Yes, that seems to be the case. My sense is that the Odiya cultural paradigm is more river economy than a coastal one. Maybe Andhra folks could replicate a Vizag up the coast

Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago
Reply to  Vikram

Did my schooling there. Oriyas are the opposite of Gujjus. Culturally, its a North Indian state masquerading as a coastal one.

Andhra has lost its mojo after the split.

girmit
girmit
2 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

where do they plot in the more-hindu less-hindu matrix? They don’t seem as bong-phobic as the assamese posture. Thats got to deduct points

Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

Oh they are Bong phobic, just not on the Assam scale. And that understood considering there hasnt been an active invasion of Bengalis into Orissa.

On Hindu matrix, i would put them in-between more and less Hindu regions. Moving towards more Hindu region. Similar to Assam. Very Indian/nation (supersedes their own subnationalism) oriented in outlook, unlike Dravidian or Bengali nationalism.

Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/comment/opposition-bets-on-hindutva-to-counter-bjp-313446

“ Opposition bets on Hindutva to counter BJP

The RSS can today sit back rather pleased that almost all the parties that operate in the Hindi belt now go some distance to prove their so-called Hindu-ness. AAP is highlighting its Hindu credentials, with Kejriwal promising that his party would make Uttarakhand the global spiritual capital of Hindus. The Congress is stating that Hindutva does not belong to the BJP and if they say Ram, we will say Bholenath.“

Politics of more Hindu region ☝️

Vikram
2 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

Does the more Hinduness of this region have any implications for the world ? North India is going to be a very poor place for the foreseeable future, possible forever. Its heading in the Ukraine direction.

Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago
Reply to  Vikram

For the longest time, no one on the blog seems to agree that N-India is more Hindu. Then isn’t the question really moot? We should first decide that.

In my view, Hindu-ness is separate from economic prosperity. U can be a more-Hindu region and be rich (Gujarat) and be less-Hindu region and poor (North East). In UP itself, the most prosperous region were also the most religiously charged region, last election (Western UP).

Vikram
2 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

Well, I am not implying that more/less Hinduness has anything to do with economy. Its just that this is the most populated part of India, which has a decidedly feudal, salary seeking culture. Very different from Han Chinese and coastal Americans, both of whom are the majority in their countries.

Unlike Gujarat, Western UP is prosperous because of transplants (both human and financial via taxes), not the locals. I am not very convinced about the Hinduness of Jats or Rajputs, but thats another discussion.

Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago
Reply to  Vikram

If Thakurs are not more-Hindu, not sure who qualifies as more-Hindu then, apart from Brahmins. I mean the whole category started with those two.

Jats i agree, they are more like Marathas. More Hindu only when the situation demands. Though their antecedents gives them points for venturing out of Hindu-dom and coming back to it from time to time. Bit like Sikhs and the whole Khalistani/nationalist debate.

On the question of transplant, every prosperous Indian region has been due to huge amount of transplant. If not people, then resources sourced from poor regions. Or is your case that Mumbai is India;s top city because of just local Marathi manoos?

Vikram
2 years ago
Reply to  Vikram

Well, there is practically no Hindu religion without Brahmins. Everyone else’s Hinduness is more nebulous. But lets leave that debate for another time.

Calling Marathi manoos the locals of Mumbai is not at all accurate. It was a Koli fishing village. Kolis speak Marathi but have very little in common with Marathas. The city as we know it was established by Gujaratis, and has a Gujarati ethos. Marathas became the largest group later, but have never managed to displace the Gujaratis from the top spot. If the Marathas had become a total majority in the city, it would have probably lost its status.

I cant see this playing out in Delhi. The Baniyas and Khatris will either wisen up and leave, or get evicted.

Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago
Reply to  Vikram

“Calling Marathi manoos the locals of Mumbai is not at all accurate.”

I would leave the Shiv Sena handle that…

But to your larger point. What you say about Gujjus is true of Marwadis of Kolkata as well. True to larger extent of Punjabis of Delhi (post 47) . True of Lahore, Karachi (wrt to their Hindu/Sikh pops). That does not mean the local group has any less contribution. Without active support of the local group nothing can be built. Because they sure as hell know how to pull the whole thing down.

girmit
girmit
2 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

, you’ve been building this up for years now?. Can you at least table the discussion in a post?

Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago
Reply to  girmit

LOL, be frank… deep down you agree with my hypothesis, no?

girmit
girmit
2 years ago
Reply to  girmit

haha, there’s something to it. I’m not all in yet though

Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago
Reply to  girmit

When it took Hindu right 70 odd years to convince fellow Hindus, i am a small fish in comparison…

Ugra
Ugra
2 years ago
Reply to  Vikram

Good question. Economic prosperity and religious revival/reform are closely intertwined. And there is ample societal recognition of a section of religious elites that outperform others. Example: WASPs in the US. Even in modern Europe, wealth and prosperity seems to accumulate within the countries that reformed earlier (same Protestant trend as in Max Weber’s analysis).

In India, the worst places – UP, Bihar – carry not only the mental burden of a defeated history but are also deeply entrenched with dysfunctional elites. These places are suffering from the Peter Turchin’s overproduction of elites who add no value to either the religion or the economy.

The most prosperous places in India are all the places (Gujarat, Karnataka, Maharashtra, Tamilnadu) who have created newer strains of Hinduism that have adapted to modernity and the industrial economy. I will list out a few things that show the confluence.

Gujarat – Mercantilism – Swaminarayan Sampradaya
Maharashtra – Savarkarite Industrialism – Hindutva
Karnataka – Scientific Outlook – Vachana/Lingayatism/Rejection of Vedas
Tamilnadu – Manufacturing focus – Anti-caste movement

Cultural production of modern India is excessively concentrated in these four regions. Anything and everything you associate with the soft-power of modern India comes out of these 4 regions – art, tech, movies, commerce, culture, politics.

These are the New Hindus who are already the centre-of-gravity of Modern Hinduism.

The rest are playing catch-up and are being influenced by the dynamics of these four regions – whether they are elites or sub-alterns. Whatever the plebs from the Rest of India theorize, it doesn’t matter. They don’t possess the currency of success to influence people. They copy what people from these four regions do.

Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago
Reply to  Ugra

LOL, i mean the rest of India has been copying the religion(s) of the Gangetic belt for centuries and all.

As i have said there is Pakistan level of delusion, and then there is Dravidian level of delusion.

Ugra
Ugra
2 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

Saurav – do you realise that you are literally wrong? I mean, LITERALLY?

The last census of India, held in 2011, established the following.

Tamilnadu is 87% Hindu
Uttar Pradesh is 79% Hindu

You probably don’t understand the meaning of delusion 🙂

Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

Well i was talking about Hindus so that of course leaves some groups out

BTW your ‘Dravidian stock’ CM had the same comprehension issue (no surprise there) , so he wanted the more Hindu region to answer them

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/tamil-nadu/are-sri-lankan-tamils-not-hindus-asks-stalin/article30314508.ece

“My question is whether the BJP government [at the Centre] and the AIADMK regime [in the State] see the Sri Lankan Tamils as Hindus at all. Though they are Tamils, they follow Hinduism. Wouldn’t their exclusion amount to rejecting Hindu Tamils?””

And of course he got the answer. Doubt that you would get it though. ?

Narasingha Deva
Narasingha Deva
2 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

“My question is whether the BJP government [at the Centre] and the AIADMK regime [in the State] see the Sri Lankan Tamils as Hindus at all. Though they are Tamils, they follow Hinduism. Wouldn’t their exclusion amount to rejecting Hindu Tamils?””

I believe if Sri Lankan Tamil Hindus were somehow added to CAA, a lot of Tamils would’ve been pushed towards Hindutva

Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

Be as that may, what does it tell about hindutva that it added even bengali Hindus and not tamil Hindus.

U know the answer… ?

Hoju
Hoju
2 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

Exactly what I said earlier too but I think it has more to do with race. Tamil Hindus being at the bottom of the Indian racial hierarchy get treated like outcastes. Hindutva doesn’t care if Sri Lankan Tamil Hindus die, indeed they’d prefer it.

Just pointlessly posting as like 10% of my posts get approved to be posted usually weeks later.

Vikram
2 years ago
Reply to  Ugra

Ugra, the question is how will the Northern elites seek to equalize the economic and cultural imbalance with the other regions. The cultural question is perhaps easier to answer. An insistence on Hindi as the preeminent language (possibly extending to bans on the use of English), and centrality of upper Gangetic culture as *the* authentic Indian culture.

On the economics front, there a few different options. Direct expropriation of surplus from the coastal regions and redistribution via bureaucratic expansion in the centre, which will be dominated by Hindi speakers. Another option is intensified migration of Gangetic elites to coastal cities and taking over businesses and markets served by locals.

Hoju
Hoju
2 years ago
Reply to  Vikram

They might also employ the Kashmir solution to any proudly dissenting state, like TN, Kerala, and Bengal.

Ugra
Ugra
2 years ago
Reply to  Vikram

Simple answer – the Northern elites don’t know how to.

Lets take the simplest power game in India – formation of an IPL team – it is the perfect collision of commerce, politics and culture. Do the elites of UP or Bihar have the balls or savvy to get an IPL team formed in their state even after 15 years? No.

This is the art of forming empires – something that the Northern elites have forgotten. Mughals really beat the shit out of them. Forget imposing their will on other states, can they even impose their culture on their own state’s Muslims?? – who continuously create political coalitions opposed to the majority. This is another thing that MH, KA, TN and GJ are very successful at – they have imposed their will on the minorities.

Every Gangetic elite who comes to Karnataka/Tamilnadu/Maha/Gujarat learns the local language, the second/third generation is totally assimilated. The Gangetic cultural matrix is very weak to non-existent and easily superimposed. While your reasoning might be a valid theory, reality proves otherwise. There is no Gangetic elite who has made it big in politics or commerce in the four states without being co-opted.

lurker
lurker
2 years ago
Reply to  Vikram

Ugra:
Interesting comment on Karnataka and how Brahminism and Sanskritization are not the same thing in that state.
One potential reason is that Karnataka has a long history of having a second religiocultural pole in the form of Jainism. While Jainism was probably never the majority religion in the state, it was a substantial minority one (let’s say 20-35%) especially in Northern Karnataka, and a powerful one at that given the existence of Jain/Jain influenced kingdoms that were around for hundreds of years.
Jain monks /scholars are also said to have been the biggest contributors to early Kannada literature/grammar etc.
Through Jainism, Karnataka has always been, even at the middle caste level, familiar and comfortable with Northern Prakrit/Sanskrit and Northern culture/praxis, both of which were not necessarily tied only to higher/Brahminical Hinduism. And through Jainism there was always a robust, autonomous (from Brahminical Hinduism) religio culture that the Lingayats are the latest manifestation of.

Lingayats according to some were in significant percentages Jain before Basava- Northern Karnataka the current Lingayat stronghold was long a Jain stronghold in the second half of the first millennium, and early second millennium.

Thoughts? (Girmit might know a lot about this too)

Vikram
2 years ago
Reply to  Vikram

“Forget imposing their will on other states, can they even impose their culture on their own state’s Muslims??”

This is a great point, but it does not result in the implication for Bengali Hindus and Dravidians that you are assuming. Northern Hindus are afraid of Muslims and Sikhs, it has taken a political movement originating in Maharashtra, financed and led by Gujaratis to get them to a point where even simple prohibitions on cow slaughter can be enforced.

But they are not afraid of Bengalis and South Indians. The feeling is very much that of racial superiority, much like Pakistanis feel vis-a-vis Hindustani and Bengali Muslims, despite the common religion. When the time comes they will seek to impose cultural control and economic expropriation. It will be critical to see how the Marathis will flip. They are one Indo-Aryan group not afraid of Muslims and bowing down to Delhi.

Hoju
Hoju
2 years ago
Reply to  Vikram

“But they are not afraid of Bengalis and South Indians. The feeling is very much that of racial superiority, much like Pakistanis feel vis-a-vis Hindustani and Bengali Muslims, despite the common religion. When the time comes they will seek to impose cultural control and economic expropriation. It will be critical to see how the Marathis will flip. They are one Indo-Aryan group not afraid of Muslims and bowing down to Delhi.”

The Gujaratis and Marathis will eagerly bow to the North and help them further subjugate the South and Bengal. They will even take the leadership role in this.

Kannadigas are a more interesting question.

Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago
Reply to  Vikram

Everyone bows to Gangetic folks. Just like Shivaji needed a Gangetic brahmin (since Brahmins from other areas wont do, and he knew) to uplift himself, similarly the Marathi and Gujju Hindutva guys still have to kowtow to Ayodhya (Bal Thackeray) and Benaras ( Modi) to burnish their Hindu credentials. And if they split from N-Indian Hindutva like Shiv Sena has been attempting , pretty soon they will have their Hindutva credentials revoked. Their is a reason that penguin Thackeray has to keep on asserting that he is a Hindu (we all know why 🙂 ) and Modi has to contest from UP.

So yeah the Marathis and Gujjus ( highly unlikely) can revolt. But that would be revolt similar to non religious Dravidian/Bengali sub-nationalism kind and not nearly anything close to Hindutva.

Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago
Reply to  Vikram

@Ugra
“Every Gangetic elite who comes to Karnataka/Tamilnadu/Maha/Gujarat learns the local language, the second/third generation is totally assimilated. The Gangetic cultural matrix is very weak to non-existent and easily superimposed.”
I had so desperately wished Bimaru immigrants learn the local language and culturally assimilate.
But after spending many years in MH/ GJ, few things are quite obvious

– locals themselves treat Bimaru language Hindi as one spoken by the elites. In most elite private residential schools of MH/ GJ, casual conversation takes a flip to Hindi when you want to seek attention or stamp authority.

– you can never expect a response when you ask something in Kannada/ Gujarati/ Marathi while in Kanpur or Patna. But you can get away in absolute ease despite not knowing more than few local words in KA/ GJ/ MH.

I used to think and blame Bimaru immigrants for all this. But the hard truth is somewhere deep down KA/ GJ/ MH local residents understand Hindi’s influence and authority and are happy with the status quo. Bimaru immigrants are like English speakers who expect everyone in the world to know their language and expect a response in the same too.

Ugra
Ugra
2 years ago
Reply to  Vikram

@ Vikram

….But they are not afraid of Bengalis and South Indians. The feeling is very much that of racial superiority, much like Pakistanis feel vis-a-vis Hindustani and Bengali Muslims, despite the common religion. When the time comes they will seek to impose cultural control and economic expropriation….

The past and the present show a timid society with no attempt at reform or consolidation. I would really say that this sounds like escapist fantasy. This feels like Mungerilal.

Ugra
Ugra
2 years ago
Reply to  Vikram

@ Saurav

Everyone bows to Gangetic folks…..

BIMARU Olympics where being poorest, lowest HDI, unemployed and regressive is a gold medal achievement.

girmit
girmit
2 years ago
Reply to  Vikram

Much of the social capital that led to reconstituting colonial India as a republic was gangetic based. Arguably the most expansive sense of India radiates from that region as well (and by certain upper-castes of other regions). This would have been unconsciously acknowledged by regional leaders. Three generations post-independence, the question is whether that same reliance on the gangetic version of the “idea of india” is required. Shivaji took legitimacy from a benaras brahmin but in no way considered himself Hindustani.

Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago
Reply to  Vikram

If your contestation is that we need a new version of “idea of india” , than be my guest. I was just stating what has been the past and present. I would be keen to see how “regional leaders” would take initiative in shaping a new version. I am pretty sure it will be a repackaged version of the current one. Since the base software of India is still a N-Indian Hindu one.

And till the base remains the same, dont be surprised if the Gangetic plains maintains its primacy similar to Saudi have vis-v Islam.

Brown
Brown
2 years ago
Reply to  Ugra

Karnataka – Scientific Outlook – Vachana/Lingayatism/Rejection of Vedas

well except for a section of lingayats and some ‘ educated’ dalits, rejection of vedas ( and implied brahminism) etc is not an observed phenomenon.

the rise of prosperity and bjp are sort of homogenising hindu practices. earlier, weddings, and funerals used be be slightly different for brahmins and non brahmins. now it is almost the same, and in urban areas the system of funeral is becoming cremation almost across the caste spectrum.
the process of ‘sansktritisation’ is very powerful and lay lingayats cannot be outside this in the long run.

Ugra
Ugra
2 years ago
Reply to  Brown

@Brown

Well the current Chief minister and the ex chief minister come from Lingayat sub-communities which explicitly reject Vedas and uphold Basava? In which other state of India, is this possible?

It is not necessary for everyone to do this. The fact that this is normal in Karnataka speaks volumes about its reformist credentials.

Sanskritisation and Brahminical structures in Karnataka are not coeval.

Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-09-19/huawei-s-decline-shows-why-china-will-struggle-to-dominate

Huawei’s Decline Shows Why China Will Struggle to Dominate
Two years ago the telecom giant was set to control global 5G, but now its goal is survival. Beijing’s belligerence is to blame.

Don’t bet against America…. Yet.

Bhimrao
Bhimrao
2 years ago

On Del Rio:

Build the wall fools! If India can do it why can’t the US?

Roy
Roy
2 years ago
Reply to  Bhimrao

Read Kevin MacDonald’s “Culture of Critique” to understand immigration dynamics in the US.

Sumit
Sumit
2 years ago

Came across these interesting documentaries on the andamanese tribals (in Hindi)

The Great Andamanese tribe, the first to be contacted, seem highly assimilated and look indian admixed (the woman at the 6 min mark just looks like a generic Indian). And the school kids at the end seem very Indian in terms of mannerisms.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_PjTPuedN5o

And then the one in the jarawa, only contacted fairly recently, which seem far more raw, and they seem far less assimilated based on expressions and demeanour. Also don’t look admixed.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gc5r1IDhmiU

Bhimrao
Bhimrao
2 years ago

Congress + Capt. Amrinder Singh: “Vinash Kaale, Vipreet Buddhi”

Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago
Reply to  Bhimrao

I am reading reports that Amrinder dismissal is counter productive for Congress. Plus all this talk of AAP having a cake walk.

Not sure how much is just Delhi’s media chatter and how much is reality. Congress seem so far ahead that some missteps shouldn’t harm them. Plus it has taken a categorical stand against farm laws, something Akalis have flip flopped on. Not sure with opposition divided b/w Akalis and AAP, how Congress can really lose.

Bhimrao
Bhimrao
2 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Punjab_Legislative_Assembly_election
Vote % difference are not that big. Navjot Singh Sidhu is not a professional. Professionals win elections as Amit Shah has decisively shown.

Prats
Prats
2 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

AAP is definitely not going to get a majority in Punjab. It’s just Delhi bias.

Hoju
Hoju
2 years ago

Hoping to see Jagmeet Singh’s party to lose badly tonight.

principia
principia
2 years ago

Alia Bhatt has made a pro-woman ad, and it’s causing a ruckus.

https://indianexpress.com/article/entertainment/bollywood/alia-bhatt-questioning-kanyadan-in-latest-ad-leaves-twitter-divided-labelled-woke-feminism-7520780/

At the same time, Cadbury is re-creating an iconic ad with a woman starrer.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/entertainment/tv/cadbury-recreates-iconic-ad-with-woman-cricketer-shankar-mahadevan-s-27-year-old-song-is-still-there-101631940669953.html

Hindutva or not, it seems to me that India is moving firmly in the right direction. It also disproves those claiming India is somehow regressing socially.

P.S. Hoju, keep posting those videos, I watch most of them.

Hoju
Hoju
2 years ago

How will the IPL recover?

Hoju
Hoju
2 years ago

So Canada just had its federal election.

Ruling Liberal party had a minority government. Called a snap election in August the day Kabul fell. They were polling well and wanted to get a majority. Since calling the election, polling for the Liberals declined steadily.

Election happened… and pretty much exactly same results as 2019, down to the seats. Liberal minority government again. Kind of a loss for Trudeau, but still forming government is a kind of win.

Khalistani Jagmeet Singh retained his seat and his party made very minor gains, but pretty much same situation. I don’t think he’s taken seriously, which is good. I like the party, but not the leader.

The Conservatives likely win the popular vote again, but because their voters are so concentrated in the Canadian Prairies, they don’t get a lot of seats for it (i.e., they run up the score in the seats they win), while Liberals win many seats with a plurality of support.

Nice Twitter thread on some overall trends in Canadian politics w/ graphs:

https://twitter.com/acoyne/status/1440162537698258952

thewarlock
thewarlock
2 years ago

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-BSN-3nmMyM

People forget. Jatts are only 25% of Punjab and Dalits are 33%. Diaspora and punjabi music industry act like it’s something totally different.

Narasingha Deva
Narasingha Deva
2 years ago

https://interestingengineering.com/a-new-electrocatalyst-massively-improves-the-commercial-viability-of-green-hydrogen

A New Electrocatalyst Massively Improves the Commercial Viability of Green Hydrogen

Narasingha Deva
Narasingha Deva
2 years ago
Ugra
Ugra
2 years ago

Latest event in BIMARU Olympics –

Yogi Adityanath implies that rations from the Public Distribution System (PDS) were being stolen by “Abba Jaan’s” and are now put to a stop by his Government.

The OBC parties in the Gangetic Heartland have reacted predictably.

Akhilesh Yadav has decried the language used. Nitish Kumar’s party in Bihar has also termed it as a provocation. Congressis and Communists have started “My Abba Jaan” campaign on Twitter.

Full on heat before the main event.

Narasingha Deva
Narasingha Deva
2 years ago

https://theprint.in/pageturner/excerpt/how-i-got-into-trouble-in-kerala-for-setting-a-question-paper-with-the-word-muhammed-in-it/737129/

How I got into trouble in Kerala for setting a question paper with the word ‘Muhammed’ in it

In his autobiography, ‘A Thousand Cuts’, professor T.J. Joseph recounts the experience during and after the 2010 event that changed his life.

Hoju
Hoju
2 years ago

There’s such a striking difference between how Islamists have reacted to the Rohingya Muslim genocide when compared to how Hindutvas have reacted to the Tamil Hindu genocide. The difference is night and day, with one group trying to help the victims and the other heaping praise on the killers.

No wonder Islam is flourishing around the world while Hinduism is on the verge of dying.

Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago
Reply to  Hoju

Oh i would go one step further…

We N-Indians have carried the burden of less Hindu ethnicities for far too long. Not only that , less Hindu ethnicities have been constantly weakening Hindu causes and harming it from within.

Its time the less Hindu ethnicities fight their own battles.

Bhumiputra
Bhumiputra
2 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

How and whose burden exactly are N-Indians carrying? You have admitted that South subsidizes the North. You piss on Jats and Marathas who do the most of our fighting.

Prats
Prats
2 years ago
Reply to  Bhumiputra

How and whose burden exactly are N-Indians carrying? You have admitted that South subsidizes the North. You piss on Jats and Marathas who do the most of our fighting.

You should get familiar with the concept of ‘bakaiti’.

It entails not being particularly good at anything apart from creating nuisance but being extremely proud of it.

A related concept is encapsulated in the phrase:
“Zindagi jhand ba, phir bhi ghamand ba”

The essence behind this is probably untranslatable but what it literally means is – ‘Life is shit but I have too much pride to admit it.’

Most Hindi-speaking states suffer from this.

thewarlock
thewarlock
2 years ago
Reply to  Hoju

Hinduism’s curse is racial. Until we acknowledge and fix that, nothing will change. I say it bluntly often and argue frequently with the hardcore racialists. Hence, I get into a lot of heated disagreements.

Hoju
Hoju
2 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

I enjoy your posts on the topic.

Bhumiputra
Bhumiputra
2 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

@warlock,
Disagree. A lot of our ills can be explained by this quote by Thucydides “The society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools.”

H. M. Brough
H. M. Brough
2 years ago

Man some of the patients here are a bunch of petulant morons and ingrates…they don’t get the vaccine, they get the Corona, and they get mad *at me* when they start tanking. Of course they don’t ever consider that they have a BMI of 47 and an A1C of 13.

thewarlock
thewarlock
2 years ago
Reply to  H. M. Brough

I sympathize. Life of a resident during COVID

principia
principia
2 years ago

One aspect of the Northern-Southern debate is the fact that India’s parliamentary representation is still stuck at 1971’s census figures. Carnegie had a very good piece on this topic a few years ago:

India’s emerging crisis of representation.

A common narrative you hear a lot is that Southern states “feed” the North by a net transfer of funds in exchange for being politically overrepresented. However, GST taxes from from MH+GJ alone overwhelm all Southern states put together. So the myth isn’t very accordant to the facts. They are richer, of course, but their fiscal importance to the center is overblown.

The approach of successive Indian governments have been to postpone this issue into perpetuity due to it being very sensitive, but for how long will that continue?

After all: quantity is a quality in of itself. Tamil Nadu reached sub-replacement fertility in the early 2000s. Bihar and UP are still above 3. If and when the North calls the bluff of the South, the question is if the South can cause enough headaches to postpone it again. Obviously only Indians living in India will be able to answer that question.

Ugra
Ugra
2 years ago
Reply to  principia

@principia

Good article….however some points are misrepresented by Milan and Jamie.

1. Delimitation is coming. That’s why the Modi Admin is pressing the accelerator on the new Parliament Building.

2. Delimitation was delayed since the 1970s because policymakers did not want to penalise the better performing states who had reduced their replacement rates. So it was very much a conscious political decision, reiterated by successive governments (Congress, Janata Dal, BJP)

3. The Election Commission of India does not use the Webster method in constituency delimitation. Plus proportional representation is not a key aim.

4. GST revenues are not an indication of manufacturing potential but rather they are a indicator of POS (point of sale) potential. GST flows reduce as they reach the end of the finished goods stage from the raw material stage. This is because the raw material credit is setoff at every stage.

5. As a result, Maharashtra and Gujarat provide some of the highest GST collections because the point-of-sale is recorded at the Corporate Headquarters of most companies. In fact, almost all of India’s oil and gas industry is situated in MH/GJ and so are the corporate HQs of most Oil PSUs. This shows up in the skewed GST collections.

6. Jayalalitha (when she was CM) pointed this out to the GST Committee and ensured that it is not the basis of resource allocation.

My political views on delimitation and resource sharing –

There is broad consensus on equity throughout India about helping another state especially if it is under-performing. Perhaps this is stemming from the Hindu Joint Family concept. Having said this, delimitation will be politically risky – uneasy will be the crown that oversees it – in this case, Modi (hopefully!!)

Uttar Pradesh, Rajasthan, current MP will be divided into several manageable states (like erstwhile Bihar) – this will be the punishment for bad performance. The numbers will not slide or increase as much as the article shows for every state.

But it will be a period of turbulence.

Ugra
Ugra
2 years ago
Reply to  principia

@principia

To make it clear to you (….and other BP readers) about GST

1. It is destination based tax as opposed to the earlier origin based tax.

2. There are three components – Central GST, State GST and Integrated GST

3. CGST and SGST are levied on intra-state movement. IGST only on cross-border transactions.

If a Hyundai car manufactured in Chennai is sold to a person in Lucknow, the three components will be decided by the location of the dealer (Reseller).

Compared to earlier taxation regime, net effect is that – GST tax reported by Tamilnadu on this car sale will be lower than GST tax reported by UP.

Unique case is Oil and Gas sector, which is outside purview of GST, but fuel goes into the value of every product, which is taxed anyway. In this case, Gujarat and Maha have a net gain as they are primary producers and importers of crude oil from the Middle East.

Second impact is that – consuming states will always report higher tax than the producing states. So Karnataka and Tamilnadu show this effect. While MH and GJ continue to reap higher taxes as petroleum products are outside GST purview.

Ratios of the three components are more helpful in analysing a State’s contribution to overall tax.

Hoju
Hoju
2 years ago
Reply to  principia

The South will be powerless to stop it. Ultimately, the South is a colony of the North, with some more eagerly supportive of that situation (Karnataka) than others.

Narasingha Deva
Narasingha Deva
2 years ago
Reply to  Hoju


I generally agree with what you say but how much of a victim complex must you have to equate distributing parliament seats based on population to colonialism. Also look up fright equalisation policy since you seem to be unaware of it.

Hoju
Hoju
2 years ago

How much of a colonial dhimmi do you have to be to give away what little power is left for the South because some states still haven’t figured out what a condom is and how to use it.

Why do we have to keep rewarding incompetence?

Ultimately, it matters little. The writing is on the wall.

Bhumiputra
Bhumiputra
2 years ago
Reply to  Hoju

,
You are mirror image of Saurav and Qureshi. The whole plains region along the Grand Trunk Road seem to suffer from this complex of not being able to imagine a relationship of equals.

Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago
Reply to  principia

There wont be delimitation. Or at least all the states will keep their ratios unchanged. Nor will states be divided unless their is bottom up agitations, which there are almost none currently. Modi is too smart to rock the boat. He wins ‘Hindu India’ comprehensively, and inching towards good position in less-Hindu regions.

There is/was a silent understanding b/w the North and South. The north does not shout too much on delimitation, and the South doesn’t crow too much on resources siphoned. Now if any side breaks the compact, the other side will demand their pound of flesh. Either way Modi is in a win-win situation.

Vikram
2 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

Modi will be irrelevant to the BJP soon. The question is what will Yogi do.

Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago
Reply to  Vikram

As long as modi remains the only leader with OBC+UC+market support he won’t be irrelevant. No other leader from Bjp satisfies this base condition. Folks banking on yogi over estimate his appeal. Left alone he can’t carry BJP in UP, let alone carry BJP in other states.

H.M. Brough
H.M. Brough
2 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

Modi is probably going to croak soon tbh…

girmit
girmit
2 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

Modi’s ambition is to be a great man of history. After his term is over, if he hangs out on the periphery of politics he knows he puts his legacy at risk. Thats why he’s transitioning into sadhu mode. He will legit live in that cave in uttarkhand, occasionally wander the country and give sermons on sacrifice. He will be called upon to adjudicate party disputes from the cave but will put up the pretense of not wanting to be troubled. It will be interesting as hell.

Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

It’s possible but I doubt. Just like Indian cricketers and movie stars , politicians don’t know when and how to retire. Modi will have to be pushed aside rather than him stepping down. Just like Advani.

Narasingha Deva
Narasingha Deva
2 years ago

https://scroll.in/article/999972/warming-in-the-himalayas-is-pushing-the-indian-subcontinent-towards-water-insecurity

Warming in the Himalayas is pushing the Indian Subcontinent towards water insecurity

Brown Pundits