Open Thread – 09/17/2021

I’ll probably be writing a piece (free) for my Substack on caste so that people can use it for a reference. The lie that it was “invented by the British” seems pretty pervasive and will spread in the next few years for various ideological reasons, so it is useful to always remember the truth even as the lie becomes regnant. Falsity always collapses, but it takes a while.

230 thoughts on “Open Thread – 09/17/2021”

  1. @Razib How much ANE(Ancestral North Eurasian) admixture do Jomons have?

    And do all Europeans and other West Eurasians have some East Eurasian admixture via ANE admixture?

    And are pygmies the only Africans to lack Eurasian admixture?

  2. The lie that it was “invented by the British” seems pretty pervasive

    Among what group?

    Most caste groups have elaborate lores on where they came from and in most cases this precedes the British.

  3. ….the lie that it was “invented by the British” seems pretty pervasive…

    This is quite widespread. I have seen it being articulated in a non-ideological setting. My own community has been chronicled since the Chola years. But perhaps, just as sociological phenomenon are first born in the imagination preceding reality, they too die first in the imagination before their earthly demise??

  4. Does the steppe/ ivc /aasi – caste correlation still hold of we remove Brahmins and Dalits from the analysis?

    And in NW India / Pakistan just remove Dalits.

    To what extent is there still a pattern ?

    The rationale for removing the Brahmins is that I think groups of them spread out from around Haryana/ west up/ Uttarakhand and proselytized the Hindu synthesis in the rest of India and also SE Asia following in the footsteps of the Buddhist missionaries.

    For Dalits I think most Dalit groups were basically hunter gatherer tribal groups that entered agrarian societies fairly late as the farmers slowly encroached upon the forests. So they have high AASI.

    I think if the correlation is greatly diminished we should consider the impact of the process of “sanskritization” and “rajputization” as historical means for social mobility for middle caste groups.

    If this is the case the I think of follows that the extensive Anthropological classification by the British for eg in the “castes and tribes of…” series (worth a read btw, and freely available in public domain if interested in the caste system) during the peak of racialist thought in the west played a role in ossification of the caste system.

    And there was a natural tendency to attempt to exploit caste divisions in India by the British to suppress rebellion and maintain control.

    Of course this is a much, much, milder claim than the “British created it”.

    But just a thought as to why this idea persists.

    1. Sumit, I think you put it well. It wasn’t necessarily a conspiritorial plot by the brits to fortify caste division, but a useful lever, situationally. More than anything the colonial period was coterminus with (not necessarily the prime mover behind) modernization , social science shaping elite understanding of groups, growing literacy and mass communications. It seems inevitable that religion and race would become primary filters of categorization for a period. My sense is that caste and jati are institutions like all others, with long life cycles , and smaller ones within. Almost every subcon origin person here, would find their own great grandparents as early participants in caste associations that had their own trusts and newsletters and marriage bureaus. Likewise for some or another mohammedan society, or sub ethnic association. This seemed to be a phenomenon that transcended south asia though

  5. Castes existed when hunter gatherers moved to domestication of animals and agriculture.. Even IVC had herders, farmers, potters, brick makers, architects, traders, metallurgists, fishermen etc.. As there were no large schools, knowledge would have to be transmitted hereditarily from parent to offspring.. So communities will form and knowlege would be transmitted within the community.. Maybe later on the castes became rigid and hierarchial because of adopting varna system..

  6. Found an interesting series of articles (mostly) about Indian wrestlers in Europe in the early 20th century. Seems like they were by far the best in the world at the time.

    If ~3 million people in Mongolia can get golds in combat sports, India and Pakistan have no excuse, considering what Punjab Kashmiris alone were accomplishing 100 years ago. Also, someone needs to make a movie about the Great Gama. It’d write itself.

    1. True. Net good you cited this. But on another note: this is also type of stuff that Birdari ethnosupremacists use to further latch onto their superiority biases. They love to cite 19-20th century texts that show how the British felt they were superior physically and in character, relative to other Indians.

      Also sports technique and tech has come a long way. Heavyweight wrestling is a lot different now than it was back then. Even stuff like swimming was different. A Hawaiian dominated some of the early records, despite his short torso and long legs, a structural kiss of death in swimming. But sports participation and tech was not nearly as optimized. His times are worse than high school ones today. Nonetheless, your original point about no excuses about ameliorating the pitiful medal counts still stands.

  7. Indian geneticist Niraj Rai makes some of the most clearest articulations so far on the state of archaeogenetics in India and new finds. In an interview with Arihant Pawariya of Vaad, a Youtube channel, he gives insight into the latest developments in the field.

    1. A South Indian megalithic site has yielded samples from the period 1300 – 500 BCE.
    2. Sinauli has yielded two samples – one of the warrior from the coffin next to the chariot and a female burial. Interestingly he dates this to 1700 BCE.
    3. A 1000 BCE PGW site (Abhaypur, Bareilly) in the Gangetic Plains has yielded a sample.
    4. A 200 BCE site from South India has yielded samples – it supposedly throws new light on ANI-ASI mixing.

    Very significant assertion from Niraj Rai – no Steppes signature until 700 BCE in North India – this is critical, it starts to peak only in the latter half of the first millennium BCE. He stresses this quite vocally. Promises that the next 2 years will be “breakthrough years” for Indian history.

    My own thoughts – The second half of the first millennium BCE is one of the most important periods of Indian history. Buddha, Mauryas, Chanakya, Panini, Ashoka all lived in this Era. The Buddha tells his disciples that Yavanas/Yonas do not have the varna system. Chanakya complains about foreign influence in Takshashila. This is the start of the invasions of the Sakas, Kambojas, Greeks and Pahlavas into India. Finally the genetic data starts to correspond with the archaeological and textual tradition of Ancient India.

    1. And chanakya’s people showed most interest in mixing with them?Because genetics clearly is so.

      1. @DaThang

        The PGW site in Bareilly from 1000 BCE has yielded a sample. So that is the one closest to 700 BCE. Interestingly Niraj Rai says that their conclusions are arising from a time curve. Apparently Steppes signature is nowhere as strong in 1000 BCE as it is today in modern Indians.


        Swat Valley is not North India! I am not talking about political boundaries. It does not even fall in the same Koppen classification.


        Chanakya’s fulminations about foreigners is well documented. I am pretty sure he was indeed reacting to the mixing of people and the dilution of Indic authority in those regions (Takshashila).

        1. It is weird to pick 700 BC specifically then, why not 800 BC or 900 BC. Like do they have a sample immediately after 700 BC which yields higher steppe ancestry? As far as I can see, the list only has two north Indian sample times: one time section is from 1700 BC and the other from 1000 BC. Other than there, there are Swat samples but they aren’t North India so I’d think that they wouldn’t include it, saying 700 BC sounds arbitrary. Also, any idea when these will be published?

          1. …It is weird to pick 700 BC specifically then, why not 800 BC or 900 BC.

            Because…..this is my speculation…..the PGW culture ends by 600 BCE roughly in an abrupt manner. It is quite normal to assume that the sample is representative of the archaeological culture. It is the same assumption used by Shinde/Narasimhan for the Rakhigarhi sample. Steppes introgression was assumed to be after the end of Mature Harappan (1800 BCE) even though the Rakhigarhi Woman is from 2300 BCE.

            I assume that the paper will be out in the coming year. They are concentrating their efforts on the R1a1 origins study. This is something he talked about at length (which I omitted in my original post). They sampled a massive 10000 participants (!!!) from India/Pakistan/Bangladesh, of which more than 3000 turned out to be R1a1. His words – they are concluding that R1a1 has a subcontinental origin.

          2. I don’t trust modern diversity derivates, people used to and still believe that R1b was West Asian on that basis. The south Asian specific R1a is descended from clades recently outside of South Asia and if the deeper R1a* itself originated in India then I’ll believe it once I see a 12000+ year old south Asian R1a.

          3. Yeah the one finding worth highlighting there is the Bareilly find (and if verified could mean a large revision to the prevailing ideas about the PGW-associated timing of Vedic migration from the upper Indus Valley to the Ganga Valley).

            It was always an open question whether Sinauli had significant steppe rulership, and this finding seems to confirm that it didn’t.

        2. Gandhara was not part of North India! We would be bereft of such high IQ insights without Ugra’s presence.

    2. The Buddha couldn’t have said that the “Yavanas have no varna system,” because Buddha’s era was from around 500 BC, and the Greeks only entered India with Herodotus around 400 BC. The Indian word for “Greeks” was actually “Yavana” (which is a cognate of “Helenic”).

        1. @Ugra
          If Mahabharata was an oral tradition, with perhaps more lax version control than liturgical texts, could we consider that the Yona/Yavana references may have been later addendums? Wouldn’t the epics themselves, if based on pre-bronze age events, have been composed in a proto-prakrit/sanskrit ? This would allow us to retain the possibility that the group was actually hellenic

          1. It’s quite possible. Please keep in mind that the Bhandarkar Institute published the BORI critical edition after parsing all versions throughout India.

    1. Emergency for food and price control(1). Even that not very draconian. If authority gets tip on hoarding or selling above control place gets raided. Essentially clamping on “war time” hoarding profiteering(2). If it is large scale hoarding, confiscated and sold. Small shops selling above price control, then a slap on wrist. eg in my Village, price of Sugar went from LKR 120 to LKR 240. Its now 140, about LKR 20 above controlled price of 120. The villager seem ok withe small increase in price.

      Retuers steep devaluation of its currency due to a foreign exchange crisis.. There has been an approx 10% (LKR 20) increase in USD to LKR rate since Raster Bomb. That said imports of much has been stopped (eg vehicles, electronics and even fertilizer). Govt saying going organic, to be seen how this works out at next rice harvest, around end of Jan. To open letter of credit (LC) for allowed imports some long process to get approval.

      SL has lost more than 50% of its foreign exchange income. (Tourism and some mid east remittances mainly)

      Two options
      a) Sell some assets or take on more debt to fund consumption (Thats what the previous liberal, west oriented govt did. Sold Hambantota to fund consumption for political gain.

      b) Tighten our belts, cut off imports and save whatever fx we get to service our debt. Then once things turn around take debt to diversify economy, specially self sufficiency in food.

        1. Lot of bad karma in India noh. High infant mortality, starvation the works.
          Is that because of persecution of muslims and dalits.

          Suggest, just give Kashmir to Pakistan and send the muslims there.

          1. You are lucky you lot picked the AASI-est Hindus to genocide. If this were Kashmiri Pandits or even maybe the Bengalis, Sri Lanka’s fate would be probably be different. But if ands buts were candy and nuts…

            Valga Tamil Eelam!

          2. I doubt that (Kashmiri Pandits or even maybe the Bengalis, Sri Lanka’s fate would be probably be different.) You over emphasize N-Indians solidarity for Bengalis/KPs. KPs have been finding that out lately, same with Bengalis in Assam.

            Bangladesh/Pakistan/Kashmir wars are fought for multiple reasons. Least among them is Indians sympathy for Bengalis/KPs

          3. AASI-est Hindus to genocide. If this were Kashmiri Pandits or even maybe the Bengalis, Sri Lanka’s fate would be probably be different.

            I hope you recall the AASI-est flip flop brigade, aka the LTTE gave the Indian Sikhs a run for their life. Then on your home turf with the help of Tamil Nadu Tamilians, the LTTE bumped off your Indian President.

            Those who have been supposed to genocided live a better life than in India. Better life expectancy, literacy, toilets at home (no necessity to shit on street). Get this 30+% live in the south among the genocidal Sinhalese. Some run the biggest conglomerates, like John Keels (Ken Balendra), Maharaja (Kili Rajamahendran). Intermarried too with Sinhalese. Plenty like me half breed mutts.

          4. “Those who have been supposed to genocided live a better life than in India. Better life expectancy, literacy, toilets at home (no necessity to shit on street). Get this 30+% live in the south among the genocidal Sinhalese. Some run the biggest conglomerates, like John Keels (Ken Balendra), Maharaja (Kili Rajamahendran). Intermarried too with Sinhalese. Plenty like me half breed mutts”

            Most people in most places live far better lives than Indians. Wouldn’t be surprised if Tibetans, Bengalis, Tutsis, Jews, Romas, Native Americans, etc., other victims of genocide and other marginalized peoples are nevertheless living far better than Indians. It’s very difficult not to.

            “I hope you recall the AASI-est flip flop brigade, aka the LTTE gave the Indian Sikhs a run for their life. Then on your home turf with the help of Tamil Nadu Tamilians, the LTTE bumped off your Indian President.”

            LTTE did big things, this is true.

            Valga Tamil Eelam!

          5. @sbarrkum

            To clarify i didn’t mean LTTE or tamils are weak but that other Hindus would have cared more if they were less aasi because of racism.

    2. The whole problem is Sri Lanka imports most of it basic necessities. Wheat and lentils, staples in SL cannot be grown in SL. Much of these are staples and even for rural poor villager.

      Rice, we can be self sufficient with the right incentives and subsidies.

      Any other “solution” is basically rearranging deck chairs couched in high flow economic verbiage,

      The west and opposition (western liberal) are predicting dire situation. IMF has offerred economic package, which has not been accepted with a “let us see/think about it” Trying to gain control and dikat of the west. Either make the Rajapakses more compliant to west,or topple them by talking up a “market crisis”.

      There were many protests, eg teachers wanting a raise (been an issue for 10 years now). I guess wanted the govt use the jack boot of the army and suppress. I too thought they would do it. Then could have accused govt of being authoritarian and dictatorial. Instead govt sent a few leaders into quarantine for breaking quarantine rules. Many protestors got COVID and that was the end of protests.

      (1) Mainly, Sugar, Rice, Milk powder.
      (2) Wholesaler Hoarders complaint is that they imported at higher price. Pile of bullshit. a) They are hoping USD to LKR will drop precipitously (has not) b)creating artificial shortages.

      Links in next reply. Links slow approval of comments.

      1. why can’t SL grow Lentils? Looks like a coastal diet of fish + rice is the only sustainable option for SL.

        1. The problem in SL is that imported essentials are cheaper than produced/grown in SL. High labor costs being the reason. So need protectionist tariffs.

          Looks like a coastal diet of fish + rice is the only sustainable option for SL
          We have plenty veggies, coconut and pulses other than lentils. Also egg, meat, chicken, beef and pork (no shortages). Typical lunch will consist of small amount of fish/meat/egg and one veggie in poor house hold. In rural middle class, three veggies. These days I have day labor (pay LKR 1,500/USD 7). They bring breakfast, sometimes rice and curry. I think its better than what I eat normally. The woman cooks lunch for all, so I am getting decent meals.

          With the exception of lentils and bengal gram, many of the traditional pulse crops such as green gram, black gram, horse gram, toor dhal and cowpeas can be cultivated successfully in Ceylon.
          All above more expensive than imported (Australia of all places) lentils

  8. Twitter Hindus like to say this- they don’t want to accept that something morally bad was present in the All wonderful ancient India. They have an aversion towards anything foreign- be it the Muslims or the British.

    This is a problematic mentality- but at least they are disassociating with this practice in a way. A section among these twitter Hindus is even worse- They also think that ancient India had no ills like the former- but they do think that caste was an Indian concept. This combination leads to a listing of benefits of a birth based caste system and why it is still adequate to have it. Razib has talked about this to Kushal in a few podcasts.

    We need to accept that yes, this is a major social problem associated with India/Hinduism ; and work towards eliminating it. People say that this is intrinsic to Hinduism. We don’t need to outright deny this and say “nooo the British made it
    to divide us we wuz the best society to ever exist before they came”.

    Caste system indeed was intrinsic to Hinduism for a long period of time. Now Hinduism
    isn’t a dogmatic religion. It historically had space for contradictory thoughts- even the
    fundamentals changed from time to time.

    Why can’t we do the same with caste- It wasn’t there for all of Hindu history. Why should it be there in the future? Even if it was there for all of the Indian history- it
    doesn’t mean we don’t have to be a dynamic society. Large efforts have been made to
    do so and caste discriminations have reduced to a good extent. There is even space for

    There is still a lot more to do – it’s a very rooted system. But for that we have to accept
    that it existed, and still exists. And we have to prove that India isn’t a static society
    by trying to remove a near- constituent theme of the Hindu customs.

  9. The title vs. Quote from article

    “Earlier this decade, Rajni Thakkarwal was physically attacked by a group of Jatt boys during a performance in Phagwara to prevent her from singing chamaar-pop songs. (“Chamaar-pop” turns the caste name — often used as a slur by dominant caste people — into pride-filled identity assertion.)”

    “One such example from Malwa region is the music of Bant Singh – Dalit farmer, fiery singer, and political activist — which is emblematic of the upper-caste attacks on Dalit political and cultural assertion. He sang the revolutionary poetry of Sant Ram Udasi from a young age. To silence his activism, Jatt land-owners gang-raped his minor daughter. When he secured a conviction against them, Jatt men from his village battered his limbs, ultimately leading to amputations. Singh continues to be a singer-activist, now known by the sobriquet “Singing Torso.””

    Lol wtf. This is Jat Sikh on Dalit violence in Punjab. Where the hell is Hindutuva in this. Everything is blamed on Hindutva. Reality is S Asia is fucking tribal. Caste is in the DNA of S Asia, including throughout Indic Pak. Hindutuva, if anything, especially with its new subaltern appeal, is fighting this.

    1. The Jatt Sikh diaspora repeatedly mentions how their religion is morally much better than the regressive Hinduism because of its egalaratianism.

      The funny thing is that the Punjabi UC Hindus(Brahmins, Khatris, Aroras, Banias) are less casteist than the Jatt Sikhs

    2. Punjab had a violent past. Remember Nirankari Sikhs were also mercilessly murdered during insurgency. That conflict never ended, it morphed into another form as of today. The root of the problems have never been addressed which is the land reforms implementation.

  10. babul suprio has joined tmc. at last bengal is like all of india. hope this will stop the bannerjees/chaterjees lecturing all and sundry about the ” bengali exceptionalism”

    1. It also tells about how hindutva can never really grow in less-Hindu regions and those Johnny come lately hindutva guys from these regions are just here for power and have no ideological commitment to it.

      1. If nothing it will bring AAP a peg down when they rule a real debt ridden state and not a UT where they don’t have to care about revenue , policing and Infra


    “Furthermore since the Indian lobby is strong at the ICC, so it will not be easy for the PCB to win any case of compensation against New Zealand.”

    Isn’t India famously known to take the side of Pak-Ban-SL-Afg at ICC. Afg and Ban got their undeserved test status because India willed it.

    How is India involved in any of this? Also remember not so long ago PCB sued BCCI and lost, burnt bridges?


    btw, I think BCCI should have been forced to forfeit the test match they abandoned and made to pay compensation. Test>>>>>IPL.

  12. What slightly crazy historical narrative theory do you have that you can’t quite prove but think is worth considering ?

    1. If Gandhi wouldn’t have been as killed, india would have had a right wing govt in 70s -80 s after the death of Nehru.

      Had 9-11 not happened, US would have come closer and closer to Putin, and would have played similar role what China did in the 70s for usa against Ussr, against the current Chinese.

  13. I had always assumed that english word grass and hindi ghass both ultimately directly derived from indo European words. My reasoning had been that while the languages were very separated, if it made sense for one word being this similar it would be grass because of the role it played in steppe societies. But I just saw that the Sanskrit word for grass is totally different from these two. Does anyone know how did these two words end up being so similar


    We are going to end up with an Eastern Europe/US Deep South situation in the East unless large metros (5 million + with density above 3000/km2) can emerge. Once the demographic dividend ends in Eastern India, large scale depression will set in an already poor region.

    The irony here is that while migration is great for the individual, it harms the society in the long run. Ultimately you need your most driven, enterprising individuals to replace imports and add value to exports. If instead, they spend their time and energy finding a way out, the economy is never truly going to grow.

    1. Bhubaneswar seems geographically well positioned, and has a certain level of infra in place. Don’t know about the quality of ports in proximity though. Oriya ppl seem receptive enough to Jharkhand folks as well

      1. Paradip is a good port in Odisha. But this is more about people’s qualities. Odias are not a very entrepreneurial people. Despite the state being coastal, it doesnt really have a maritime, commerce based culture. Pretty feudal.

        1. Yes, that seems to be the case. My sense is that the Odiya cultural paradigm is more river economy than a coastal one. Maybe Andhra folks could replicate a Vizag up the coast

        2. Did my schooling there. Oriyas are the opposite of Gujjus. Culturally, its a North Indian state masquerading as a coastal one.

          Andhra has lost its mojo after the split.

          1. where do they plot in the more-hindu less-hindu matrix? They don’t seem as bong-phobic as the assamese posture. Thats got to deduct points

          2. Oh they are Bong phobic, just not on the Assam scale. And that understood considering there hasnt been an active invasion of Bengalis into Orissa.

            On Hindu matrix, i would put them in-between more and less Hindu regions. Moving towards more Hindu region. Similar to Assam. Very Indian/nation (supersedes their own subnationalism) oriented in outlook, unlike Dravidian or Bengali nationalism.


    “ Opposition bets on Hindutva to counter BJP

    The RSS can today sit back rather pleased that almost all the parties that operate in the Hindi belt now go some distance to prove their so-called Hindu-ness. AAP is highlighting its Hindu credentials, with Kejriwal promising that his party would make Uttarakhand the global spiritual capital of Hindus. The Congress is stating that Hindutva does not belong to the BJP and if they say Ram, we will say Bholenath.“

    Politics of more Hindu region ☝️

    1. Does the more Hinduness of this region have any implications for the world ? North India is going to be a very poor place for the foreseeable future, possible forever. Its heading in the Ukraine direction.

      1. For the longest time, no one on the blog seems to agree that N-India is more Hindu. Then isn’t the question really moot? We should first decide that.

        In my view, Hindu-ness is separate from economic prosperity. U can be a more-Hindu region and be rich (Gujarat) and be less-Hindu region and poor (North East). In UP itself, the most prosperous region were also the most religiously charged region, last election (Western UP).

        1. Well, I am not implying that more/less Hinduness has anything to do with economy. Its just that this is the most populated part of India, which has a decidedly feudal, salary seeking culture. Very different from Han Chinese and coastal Americans, both of whom are the majority in their countries.

          Unlike Gujarat, Western UP is prosperous because of transplants (both human and financial via taxes), not the locals. I am not very convinced about the Hinduness of Jats or Rajputs, but thats another discussion.

          1. If Thakurs are not more-Hindu, not sure who qualifies as more-Hindu then, apart from Brahmins. I mean the whole category started with those two.

            Jats i agree, they are more like Marathas. More Hindu only when the situation demands. Though their antecedents gives them points for venturing out of Hindu-dom and coming back to it from time to time. Bit like Sikhs and the whole Khalistani/nationalist debate.

            On the question of transplant, every prosperous Indian region has been due to huge amount of transplant. If not people, then resources sourced from poor regions. Or is your case that Mumbai is India;s top city because of just local Marathi manoos?

          2. Well, there is practically no Hindu religion without Brahmins. Everyone else’s Hinduness is more nebulous. But lets leave that debate for another time.

            Calling Marathi manoos the locals of Mumbai is not at all accurate. It was a Koli fishing village. Kolis speak Marathi but have very little in common with Marathas. The city as we know it was established by Gujaratis, and has a Gujarati ethos. Marathas became the largest group later, but have never managed to displace the Gujaratis from the top spot. If the Marathas had become a total majority in the city, it would have probably lost its status.

            I cant see this playing out in Delhi. The Baniyas and Khatris will either wisen up and leave, or get evicted.

          3. “Calling Marathi manoos the locals of Mumbai is not at all accurate.”

            I would leave the Shiv Sena handle that…

            But to your larger point. What you say about Gujjus is true of Marwadis of Kolkata as well. True to larger extent of Punjabis of Delhi (post 47) . True of Lahore, Karachi (wrt to their Hindu/Sikh pops). That does not mean the local group has any less contribution. Without active support of the local group nothing can be built. Because they sure as hell know how to pull the whole thing down.

        2. @Saurav, you’ve been building this up for years now?. Can you at least table the discussion in a post?

      2. @Vikram

        Good question. Economic prosperity and religious revival/reform are closely intertwined. And there is ample societal recognition of a section of religious elites that outperform others. Example: WASPs in the US. Even in modern Europe, wealth and prosperity seems to accumulate within the countries that reformed earlier (same Protestant trend as in Max Weber’s analysis).

        In India, the worst places – UP, Bihar – carry not only the mental burden of a defeated history but are also deeply entrenched with dysfunctional elites. These places are suffering from the Peter Turchin’s overproduction of elites who add no value to either the religion or the economy.

        The most prosperous places in India are all the places (Gujarat, Karnataka, Maharashtra, Tamilnadu) who have created newer strains of Hinduism that have adapted to modernity and the industrial economy. I will list out a few things that show the confluence.

        Gujarat – Mercantilism – Swaminarayan Sampradaya
        Maharashtra – Savarkarite Industrialism – Hindutva
        Karnataka – Scientific Outlook – Vachana/Lingayatism/Rejection of Vedas
        Tamilnadu – Manufacturing focus – Anti-caste movement

        Cultural production of modern India is excessively concentrated in these four regions. Anything and everything you associate with the soft-power of modern India comes out of these 4 regions – art, tech, movies, commerce, culture, politics.

        These are the New Hindus who are already the centre-of-gravity of Modern Hinduism.

        The rest are playing catch-up and are being influenced by the dynamics of these four regions – whether they are elites or sub-alterns. Whatever the plebs from the Rest of India theorize, it doesn’t matter. They don’t possess the currency of success to influence people. They copy what people from these four regions do.

        1. LOL, i mean the rest of India has been copying the religion(s) of the Gangetic belt for centuries and all.

          As i have said there is Pakistan level of delusion, and then there is Dravidian level of delusion.

          1. Saurav – do you realise that you are literally wrong? I mean, LITERALLY?

            The last census of India, held in 2011, established the following.

            Tamilnadu is 87% Hindu
            Uttar Pradesh is 79% Hindu

            You probably don’t understand the meaning of delusion 🙂

          2. Well i was talking about Hindus so that of course leaves some groups out

            BTW your ‘Dravidian stock’ CM had the same comprehension issue (no surprise there) , so he wanted the more Hindu region to answer them


            “My question is whether the BJP government [at the Centre] and the AIADMK regime [in the State] see the Sri Lankan Tamils as Hindus at all. Though they are Tamils, they follow Hinduism. Wouldn’t their exclusion amount to rejecting Hindu Tamils?””

            And of course he got the answer. Doubt that you would get it though. ?

          3. “My question is whether the BJP government [at the Centre] and the AIADMK regime [in the State] see the Sri Lankan Tamils as Hindus at all. Though they are Tamils, they follow Hinduism. Wouldn’t their exclusion amount to rejecting Hindu Tamils?””

            I believe if Sri Lankan Tamil Hindus were somehow added to CAA, a lot of Tamils would’ve been pushed towards Hindutva

          4. Be as that may, what does it tell about hindutva that it added even bengali Hindus and not tamil Hindus.

            U know the answer… ?

          5. Exactly what I said earlier too but I think it has more to do with race. Tamil Hindus being at the bottom of the Indian racial hierarchy get treated like outcastes. Hindutva doesn’t care if Sri Lankan Tamil Hindus die, indeed they’d prefer it.

            Just pointlessly posting as like 10% of my posts get approved to be posted usually weeks later.

        2. Ugra, the question is how will the Northern elites seek to equalize the economic and cultural imbalance with the other regions. The cultural question is perhaps easier to answer. An insistence on Hindi as the preeminent language (possibly extending to bans on the use of English), and centrality of upper Gangetic culture as *the* authentic Indian culture.

          On the economics front, there a few different options. Direct expropriation of surplus from the coastal regions and redistribution via bureaucratic expansion in the centre, which will be dominated by Hindi speakers. Another option is intensified migration of Gangetic elites to coastal cities and taking over businesses and markets served by locals.

          1. @Vikram

            Simple answer – the Northern elites don’t know how to.

            Lets take the simplest power game in India – formation of an IPL team – it is the perfect collision of commerce, politics and culture. Do the elites of UP or Bihar have the balls or savvy to get an IPL team formed in their state even after 15 years? No.

            This is the art of forming empires – something that the Northern elites have forgotten. Mughals really beat the shit out of them. Forget imposing their will on other states, can they even impose their culture on their own state’s Muslims?? – who continuously create political coalitions opposed to the majority. This is another thing that MH, KA, TN and GJ are very successful at – they have imposed their will on the minorities.

            Every Gangetic elite who comes to Karnataka/Tamilnadu/Maha/Gujarat learns the local language, the second/third generation is totally assimilated. The Gangetic cultural matrix is very weak to non-existent and easily superimposed. While your reasoning might be a valid theory, reality proves otherwise. There is no Gangetic elite who has made it big in politics or commerce in the four states without being co-opted.

          2. Ugra:
            Interesting comment on Karnataka and how Brahminism and Sanskritization are not the same thing in that state.
            One potential reason is that Karnataka has a long history of having a second religiocultural pole in the form of Jainism. While Jainism was probably never the majority religion in the state, it was a substantial minority one (let’s say 20-35%) especially in Northern Karnataka, and a powerful one at that given the existence of Jain/Jain influenced kingdoms that were around for hundreds of years.
            Jain monks /scholars are also said to have been the biggest contributors to early Kannada literature/grammar etc.
            Through Jainism, Karnataka has always been, even at the middle caste level, familiar and comfortable with Northern Prakrit/Sanskrit and Northern culture/praxis, both of which were not necessarily tied only to higher/Brahminical Hinduism. And through Jainism there was always a robust, autonomous (from Brahminical Hinduism) religio culture that the Lingayats are the latest manifestation of.

            Lingayats according to some were in significant percentages Jain before Basava- Northern Karnataka the current Lingayat stronghold was long a Jain stronghold in the second half of the first millennium, and early second millennium.

            Thoughts? (Girmit might know a lot about this too)

          3. “Forget imposing their will on other states, can they even impose their culture on their own state’s Muslims??”

            This is a great point, but it does not result in the implication for Bengali Hindus and Dravidians that you are assuming. Northern Hindus are afraid of Muslims and Sikhs, it has taken a political movement originating in Maharashtra, financed and led by Gujaratis to get them to a point where even simple prohibitions on cow slaughter can be enforced.

            But they are not afraid of Bengalis and South Indians. The feeling is very much that of racial superiority, much like Pakistanis feel vis-a-vis Hindustani and Bengali Muslims, despite the common religion. When the time comes they will seek to impose cultural control and economic expropriation. It will be critical to see how the Marathis will flip. They are one Indo-Aryan group not afraid of Muslims and bowing down to Delhi.

          4. “But they are not afraid of Bengalis and South Indians. The feeling is very much that of racial superiority, much like Pakistanis feel vis-a-vis Hindustani and Bengali Muslims, despite the common religion. When the time comes they will seek to impose cultural control and economic expropriation. It will be critical to see how the Marathis will flip. They are one Indo-Aryan group not afraid of Muslims and bowing down to Delhi.”

            The Gujaratis and Marathis will eagerly bow to the North and help them further subjugate the South and Bengal. They will even take the leadership role in this.

            Kannadigas are a more interesting question.

          5. Everyone bows to Gangetic folks. Just like Shivaji needed a Gangetic brahmin (since Brahmins from other areas wont do, and he knew) to uplift himself, similarly the Marathi and Gujju Hindutva guys still have to kowtow to Ayodhya (Bal Thackeray) and Benaras ( Modi) to burnish their Hindu credentials. And if they split from N-Indian Hindutva like Shiv Sena has been attempting , pretty soon they will have their Hindutva credentials revoked. Their is a reason that penguin Thackeray has to keep on asserting that he is a Hindu (we all know why 🙂 ) and Modi has to contest from UP.

            So yeah the Marathis and Gujjus ( highly unlikely) can revolt. But that would be revolt similar to non religious Dravidian/Bengali sub-nationalism kind and not nearly anything close to Hindutva.

          6. @Ugra
            “Every Gangetic elite who comes to Karnataka/Tamilnadu/Maha/Gujarat learns the local language, the second/third generation is totally assimilated. The Gangetic cultural matrix is very weak to non-existent and easily superimposed.”
            I had so desperately wished Bimaru immigrants learn the local language and culturally assimilate.
            But after spending many years in MH/ GJ, few things are quite obvious

            – locals themselves treat Bimaru language Hindi as one spoken by the elites. In most elite private residential schools of MH/ GJ, casual conversation takes a flip to Hindi when you want to seek attention or stamp authority.

            – you can never expect a response when you ask something in Kannada/ Gujarati/ Marathi while in Kanpur or Patna. But you can get away in absolute ease despite not knowing more than few local words in KA/ GJ/ MH.

            I used to think and blame Bimaru immigrants for all this. But the hard truth is somewhere deep down KA/ GJ/ MH local residents understand Hindi’s influence and authority and are happy with the status quo. Bimaru immigrants are like English speakers who expect everyone in the world to know their language and expect a response in the same too.

          7. @ Vikram

            ….But they are not afraid of Bengalis and South Indians. The feeling is very much that of racial superiority, much like Pakistanis feel vis-a-vis Hindustani and Bengali Muslims, despite the common religion. When the time comes they will seek to impose cultural control and economic expropriation….

            The past and the present show a timid society with no attempt at reform or consolidation. I would really say that this sounds like escapist fantasy. This feels like Mungerilal.

          8. @ Saurav

            Everyone bows to Gangetic folks…..

            BIMARU Olympics where being poorest, lowest HDI, unemployed and regressive is a gold medal achievement.

          9. @Saurav Much of the social capital that led to reconstituting colonial India as a republic was gangetic based. Arguably the most expansive sense of India radiates from that region as well (and by certain upper-castes of other regions). This would have been unconsciously acknowledged by regional leaders. Three generations post-independence, the question is whether that same reliance on the gangetic version of the “idea of india” is required. Shivaji took legitimacy from a benaras brahmin but in no way considered himself Hindustani.

          10. @Girmit

            If your contestation is that we need a new version of “idea of india” , than be my guest. I was just stating what has been the past and present. I would be keen to see how “regional leaders” would take initiative in shaping a new version. I am pretty sure it will be a repackaged version of the current one. Since the base software of India is still a N-Indian Hindu one.

            And till the base remains the same, dont be surprised if the Gangetic plains maintains its primacy similar to Saudi have vis-v Islam.

        3. Karnataka – Scientific Outlook – Vachana/Lingayatism/Rejection of Vedas

          well except for a section of lingayats and some ‘ educated’ dalits, rejection of vedas ( and implied brahminism) etc is not an observed phenomenon.

          the rise of prosperity and bjp are sort of homogenising hindu practices. earlier, weddings, and funerals used be be slightly different for brahmins and non brahmins. now it is almost the same, and in urban areas the system of funeral is becoming cremation almost across the caste spectrum.
          the process of ‘sansktritisation’ is very powerful and lay lingayats cannot be outside this in the long run.

          1. @Brown

            Well the current Chief minister and the ex chief minister come from Lingayat sub-communities which explicitly reject Vedas and uphold Basava? In which other state of India, is this possible?

            It is not necessary for everyone to do this. The fact that this is normal in Karnataka speaks volumes about its reformist credentials.

            Sanskritisation and Brahminical structures in Karnataka are not coeval.

  16. Came across these interesting documentaries on the andamanese tribals (in Hindi)

    The Great Andamanese tribe, the first to be contacted, seem highly assimilated and look indian admixed (the woman at the 6 min mark just looks like a generic Indian). And the school kids at the end seem very Indian in terms of mannerisms.

    And then the one in the jarawa, only contacted fairly recently, which seem far more raw, and they seem far less assimilated based on expressions and demeanour. Also don’t look admixed.

    1. I am reading reports that Amrinder dismissal is counter productive for Congress. Plus all this talk of AAP having a cake walk.

      Not sure how much is just Delhi’s media chatter and how much is reality. Congress seem so far ahead that some missteps shouldn’t harm them. Plus it has taken a categorical stand against farm laws, something Akalis have flip flopped on. Not sure with opposition divided b/w Akalis and AAP, how Congress can really lose.

  17. Alia Bhatt has made a pro-woman ad, and it’s causing a ruckus.

    At the same time, Cadbury is re-creating an iconic ad with a woman starrer.

    Hindutva or not, it seems to me that India is moving firmly in the right direction. It also disproves those claiming India is somehow regressing socially.

    P.S. Hoju, keep posting those videos, I watch most of them.

  18. So Canada just had its federal election.

    Ruling Liberal party had a minority government. Called a snap election in August the day Kabul fell. They were polling well and wanted to get a majority. Since calling the election, polling for the Liberals declined steadily.

    Election happened… and pretty much exactly same results as 2019, down to the seats. Liberal minority government again. Kind of a loss for Trudeau, but still forming government is a kind of win.

    Khalistani Jagmeet Singh retained his seat and his party made very minor gains, but pretty much same situation. I don’t think he’s taken seriously, which is good. I like the party, but not the leader.

    The Conservatives likely win the popular vote again, but because their voters are so concentrated in the Canadian Prairies, they don’t get a lot of seats for it (i.e., they run up the score in the seats they win), while Liberals win many seats with a plurality of support.

    Nice Twitter thread on some overall trends in Canadian politics w/ graphs:

  19. Latest event in BIMARU Olympics –

    Yogi Adityanath implies that rations from the Public Distribution System (PDS) were being stolen by “Abba Jaan’s” and are now put to a stop by his Government.

    The OBC parties in the Gangetic Heartland have reacted predictably.

    Akhilesh Yadav has decried the language used. Nitish Kumar’s party in Bihar has also termed it as a provocation. Congressis and Communists have started “My Abba Jaan” campaign on Twitter.

    Full on heat before the main event.

  20. There’s such a striking difference between how Islamists have reacted to the Rohingya Muslim genocide when compared to how Hindutvas have reacted to the Tamil Hindu genocide. The difference is night and day, with one group trying to help the victims and the other heaping praise on the killers.

    No wonder Islam is flourishing around the world while Hinduism is on the verge of dying.

    1. Oh i would go one step further…

      We N-Indians have carried the burden of less Hindu ethnicities for far too long. Not only that , less Hindu ethnicities have been constantly weakening Hindu causes and harming it from within.

      Its time the less Hindu ethnicities fight their own battles.

      1. How and whose burden exactly are N-Indians carrying? You have admitted that South subsidizes the North. You piss on Jats and Marathas who do the most of our fighting.

        1. How and whose burden exactly are N-Indians carrying? You have admitted that South subsidizes the North. You piss on Jats and Marathas who do the most of our fighting.

          You should get familiar with the concept of ‘bakaiti’.

          It entails not being particularly good at anything apart from creating nuisance but being extremely proud of it.

          A related concept is encapsulated in the phrase:
          “Zindagi jhand ba, phir bhi ghamand ba”

          The essence behind this is probably untranslatable but what it literally means is – ‘Life is shit but I have too much pride to admit it.’

          Most Hindi-speaking states suffer from this.

    2. Hinduism’s curse is racial. Until we acknowledge and fix that, nothing will change. I say it bluntly often and argue frequently with the hardcore racialists. Hence, I get into a lot of heated disagreements.

      1. @warlock,
        Disagree. A lot of our ills can be explained by this quote by Thucydides “The society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools.”

  21. Man some of the patients here are a bunch of petulant morons and ingrates…they don’t get the vaccine, they get the Corona, and they get mad *at me* when they start tanking. Of course they don’t ever consider that they have a BMI of 47 and an A1C of 13.

  22. One aspect of the Northern-Southern debate is the fact that India’s parliamentary representation is still stuck at 1971’s census figures. Carnegie had a very good piece on this topic a few years ago:

    India’s emerging crisis of representation.

    A common narrative you hear a lot is that Southern states “feed” the North by a net transfer of funds in exchange for being politically overrepresented. However, GST taxes from from MH+GJ alone overwhelm all Southern states put together. So the myth isn’t very accordant to the facts. They are richer, of course, but their fiscal importance to the center is overblown.

    The approach of successive Indian governments have been to postpone this issue into perpetuity due to it being very sensitive, but for how long will that continue?

    After all: quantity is a quality in of itself. Tamil Nadu reached sub-replacement fertility in the early 2000s. Bihar and UP are still above 3. If and when the North calls the bluff of the South, the question is if the South can cause enough headaches to postpone it again. Obviously only Indians living in India will be able to answer that question.

    1. @principia

      Good article….however some points are misrepresented by Milan and Jamie.

      1. Delimitation is coming. That’s why the Modi Admin is pressing the accelerator on the new Parliament Building.

      2. Delimitation was delayed since the 1970s because policymakers did not want to penalise the better performing states who had reduced their replacement rates. So it was very much a conscious political decision, reiterated by successive governments (Congress, Janata Dal, BJP)

      3. The Election Commission of India does not use the Webster method in constituency delimitation. Plus proportional representation is not a key aim.

      4. GST revenues are not an indication of manufacturing potential but rather they are a indicator of POS (point of sale) potential. GST flows reduce as they reach the end of the finished goods stage from the raw material stage. This is because the raw material credit is setoff at every stage.

      5. As a result, Maharashtra and Gujarat provide some of the highest GST collections because the point-of-sale is recorded at the Corporate Headquarters of most companies. In fact, almost all of India’s oil and gas industry is situated in MH/GJ and so are the corporate HQs of most Oil PSUs. This shows up in the skewed GST collections.

      6. Jayalalitha (when she was CM) pointed this out to the GST Committee and ensured that it is not the basis of resource allocation.

      My political views on delimitation and resource sharing –

      There is broad consensus on equity throughout India about helping another state especially if it is under-performing. Perhaps this is stemming from the Hindu Joint Family concept. Having said this, delimitation will be politically risky – uneasy will be the crown that oversees it – in this case, Modi (hopefully!!)

      Uttar Pradesh, Rajasthan, current MP will be divided into several manageable states (like erstwhile Bihar) – this will be the punishment for bad performance. The numbers will not slide or increase as much as the article shows for every state.

      But it will be a period of turbulence.

    2. @principia

      To make it clear to you (….and other BP readers) about GST

      1. It is destination based tax as opposed to the earlier origin based tax.

      2. There are three components – Central GST, State GST and Integrated GST

      3. CGST and SGST are levied on intra-state movement. IGST only on cross-border transactions.

      If a Hyundai car manufactured in Chennai is sold to a person in Lucknow, the three components will be decided by the location of the dealer (Reseller).

      Compared to earlier taxation regime, net effect is that – GST tax reported by Tamilnadu on this car sale will be lower than GST tax reported by UP.

      Unique case is Oil and Gas sector, which is outside purview of GST, but fuel goes into the value of every product, which is taxed anyway. In this case, Gujarat and Maha have a net gain as they are primary producers and importers of crude oil from the Middle East.

      Second impact is that – consuming states will always report higher tax than the producing states. So Karnataka and Tamilnadu show this effect. While MH and GJ continue to reap higher taxes as petroleum products are outside GST purview.

      Ratios of the three components are more helpful in analysing a State’s contribution to overall tax.

    3. The South will be powerless to stop it. Ultimately, the South is a colony of the North, with some more eagerly supportive of that situation (Karnataka) than others.

      1. @Hoju
        I generally agree with what you say but how much of a victim complex must you have to equate distributing parliament seats based on population to colonialism. Also look up fright equalisation policy since you seem to be unaware of it.

        1. How much of a colonial dhimmi do you have to be to give away what little power is left for the South because some states still haven’t figured out what a condom is and how to use it.

          Why do we have to keep rewarding incompetence?

          Ultimately, it matters little. The writing is on the wall.

      2. @Hoju,
        You are mirror image of Saurav and Qureshi. The whole plains region along the Grand Trunk Road seem to suffer from this complex of not being able to imagine a relationship of equals.

    4. There wont be delimitation. Or at least all the states will keep their ratios unchanged. Nor will states be divided unless their is bottom up agitations, which there are almost none currently. Modi is too smart to rock the boat. He wins ‘Hindu India’ comprehensively, and inching towards good position in less-Hindu regions.

      There is/was a silent understanding b/w the North and South. The north does not shout too much on delimitation, and the South doesn’t crow too much on resources siphoned. Now if any side breaks the compact, the other side will demand their pound of flesh. Either way Modi is in a win-win situation.

        1. As long as modi remains the only leader with OBC+UC+market support he won’t be irrelevant. No other leader from Bjp satisfies this base condition. Folks banking on yogi over estimate his appeal. Left alone he can’t carry BJP in UP, let alone carry BJP in other states.

          1. Modi’s ambition is to be a great man of history. After his term is over, if he hangs out on the periphery of politics he knows he puts his legacy at risk. Thats why he’s transitioning into sadhu mode. He will legit live in that cave in uttarkhand, occasionally wander the country and give sermons on sacrifice. He will be called upon to adjudicate party disputes from the cave but will put up the pretense of not wanting to be troubled. It will be interesting as hell.

          2. It’s possible but I doubt. Just like Indian cricketers and movie stars , politicians don’t know when and how to retire. Modi will have to be pushed aside rather than him stepping down. Just like Advani.

    1. To add to this – the Parliament representation.

      Maha+Gujarat+Karnataka+Goa+Kerala+Tamil Nadu+ Telangana + Andhra contribute 55% of the GST collected but only hold 38% of Parliament’s seats.

      Bringing this closer to 45% representation in Parliament will be a doable goal for delimitation.

  23. huge debate in karnataka assembly on conversion. one ex minister said that his mother was as converted. there were details of how lambanis/ banjaras are converted wholesale. demand for stricter anti conversion law from all in the house. bjp might oblige.

    as a consequence a group of christian bishops met chief minister and asked him not to bring an anti conversion law saying that there are no forceful conversions.!!! strange.

    1. Again it falls on the quintessential N-Indian Hindu party to being in anti conversion laws to safeguard Hinduism/Hindus. A bit like CAA.

      Typical, but not surprising.

        1. … which still does not take away the fact that the reason the BJP , is BJP in the first place is because of N-india. Not despite it.


    Why India must strengthen its public sector

    Today, as the Indian government readies to privatise India’s most vital and significant PSEs — Bharat Petroleum (a Fortune 500 company) BEML, and the Shipping Corporation — and dismember ONGC, the Chinese may be happy to acquire these firms and their assets, through a chain of firms they would control. Yet, these firms are important strategic assets to confront a rising China, more valuable than Rafale jets or leased Russian submarines. Bharat Petroleum has assets in 17 countries and holds part of India’s strategic oil reserves. Declining support to SCI and Indian shipping has meant that the share of India’s maritime trade carried by Indian ships is today a minuscule 6 per cent, down from 40 per cent in 1989 (figure 3). No prizes for guessing whose ships transport India’s trade.
    The government’s refusal to support PSEs at critical moments has left wide gaps in key industrial capabilities. With the collapse of HMT, India is forced to import 80 per cent of its machine tools, the bedrock of manufacturing. The undermining of the pharmaceutical PSEs like IDPL and HAL, once India’s pride, makes it dependent on active ingredients from China. The government’s reluctance to support BHEL has flooded the Indian power sector with Chinese equipment. Moreover, India is largely absent in emerging technologies like solar wafers, computer chips or EV batteries. India needs to imitate China in establishing new PSEs in strategic and emerging industries, which require patient capital and greater risk. In the development of a civilian aircraft, India has lost a decade due to the ideological reservation about spending public money for developing anything outside defence.

    1. BS.

      “today a minuscule 6 per cent, down from 40 per cent in 1989”
      This is one of those school debate-event type made up stance.

      “The government’s reluctance to support BHEL”
      Really? ?

      These companies are in need of free government money for ‘critical’ decades not “critical moments” and if allowed to they will seek it for critical centuries and critical millenniums.

        1. I had a Bengali VLSI professor in college who would bore everyone to death in his Bengali accent for weeks on how the GoI has appointed HIM and only him to oversee setting up a multi billion dollar semiconductor foundry. His drama went on for a full decade in mid 2000s-mid 2010s.

          A graduate student later accused him of sexual harassment. These ‘billion-trillion’ people are full of shit and don’t know how difficult it is to set up even a 100 people business that can generate USD 10 million/year. Their plan is always simple: Give ME shit ton of money. I am too important to move my ass and do a small proof of concept.

          The only ones who manage to get away with this plan are the politicians and bureaucrats.

          1. I too had a Bengali VLSI prof with an atrocious Bengali accent. Probably put me off the field for good.

            I genuinely do think that the Bengali accent should be banned and anyone speaking it should be sent to a correction facility. Similar to the policies followed in Alsace-Lorraine.

            All these Bongs monopolise higher education and then become profs, consequently sucking out all joy from education for the youth of the country.

            If Modi has any guts, he should put this in the next higher education policy document.

          2. “I genuinely do think that the Bengali accent should be banned ”

            I think Bengalis itself should be banned TBH…

          3. I think Bengalis itself should be banned TBH…

            IMO it’s their accent that they draw their true powers from. You cut that off and you render them impotent.

          4. I am more of a ‘dont want to take my chances’ type of guy. They have already created enough destruction , so might as well ban them..

          5. Bengalis are easily the most haraami professors in India. These BCs would actually volunteer into disciplinary committees and fail students. The funniest episode I had was a professor failing (and thus taking away the merit-means scholarship) of a student in a National Service Scheme ‘volunteer’ coursework. The poor Gult guy was begging him to pass. I remember the Bengali professor saying that he is giving the student a second chance to do community service by failing him. The Punjabi army major who ran the NCC was orders of magnitude kinder.

            And the accent man, wtf is wrong with the Bengali accent!

            Another thing I noticed is how nice these Bengali profs are to female students.

    shekhar gupta, reacting to kamala harris’s lecture to modi. shekhar gupta wants modi to kiss and make up with muslims in india so that the current u s administration is comfortable.

    just wondering if this is correct. india had kept israel at an arm’s length to please indian muslims. when this changed, indian muslims did not even take notice of.

  26. Was watching a video of Modi meeting Harris on YouTube.

    Modi speaking in Hindi and using a translator.

    Indian Left: “Look at this low class, low IQ PM can’t even speak English”

    Indian Right: “PM knows how speak English very well, but chooses to speak in Hindi to promote our national language”

    Neither group questioned the presumption that speaking English makes you higher IQ.

  27. I have discovered that my new wife is a rabid Kpop fanatic. She will have me put on music shows and then when BTS comes on, she will cheer “Jimin” and “Jungkook” and various other terms as the young Korean men come to the limelight and do their dances. She knows who is who virtually all the time.

    I can’t say that I see the appeal of this stuff…but I’m glad it makes her happy.


    While watching it, I thought this film could be about how American newspapers lure Indian opinion writers and transplant America inside them, after which they start writing like Americans

    Every Indian who watches Get Out may think it is about how the minds of their peers are rebooted to imitate Americans: The startup guy who did engineering as his parents insisted, married their pick of spouse, and produced ‘we-two-ours-two’ kids, and now suddenly want to “disrupt”, that venture capitalist who indulges in a mission Asians almost never used to have—saving the world. That economist who knows the castes of his friends and foes but now talks of “Clash of Civilizations” as though it is some new thought. That writer who has started saying, “I am so stoked.” And Indians who never read a single Indian newspaper but subscribe to The New York Times.

    It is so easy for the US to co-opt the most refined, educated, talented and affluent sections (all of these are mutually exclusive) of the developing world, and make them comical imitators of some American ideal. But for many years now, we have been hearing that the US is in decline.

    1. Double speak is the normal mode of human speech. More pronounced with Indians as they become mature and independent very late.

      I consider eternal-H1B Indians to be small business owners. Their main business being just staying in the US. In doing so they make more money than 99% of Indians, which is a reasonably good outcome.

      America has given Indians unthinkable amounts of money and opportunities. Indian mind is still very new to a world where things just work as intended and has a superficial understanding of how gora-society works, we just fit into whatever gora people have already made for us. No real understanding, connection with the undercurrents and market hence reliance on buzzwords, and cliches to get by.

      1. I think there is a split b/w Indian tech ( h1b folks) and the liberal arts-PhD-tenured wallahs. The former earn much more which is the main chagrin of the latter.

        As to “ why are these less accomplished small town IT coolies supporting modi?” But since the latter category has more muscle and fancy English in media outlets they are trying the best they can.

      2. “I consider eternal-H1B Indians to be small business owners. Their main business being just staying in the US.”

        If in pursuit of their side-businesses lots of H1B Indians are getting to senior positions in the industry, I would say its time well spent.

        It takes a lot of honest effort to rise in the industry or even to maintain your job. One should be technically sound, be able to learn new things, have the ability to work in a diverse workplace with lots of other people, manage people working under them etc.

        These people are the salt of the earth. Not bullshit artists like the ones in the liberal arts academia.

  29. Speaking about inter-class hate and jealousy, I personally think the ‘salt of the earth’ type people in the middle or lower classes are the ones that harbor the most amount of resentment and jealousy within, against the upper classes. This almost always comes out in casual drawing room conversations. I just say this because just this week I encountered several different events, one a family gathering, another a friends gathering and lastly a couple of movies I watched this week, and they all had the same theme: those evil bourgeoisie are the cause of every wrong in this world. One gets jaded with everyone acting like a victim. Everyone acts as if they (or their tribe of choosing) is suppressed or by the ones above, when they would act exactly the same (or worse) if the roles are exchanged.

    1. I am not talking about the Pakistani middle class.
      Pakistanis are unique for their reactionary, Jihadi mindset, even amongst the Muslim countries.

      1. I think this is why Pakistan has a bright future. Our middle classes are not content to wallow in self pity.

        1. Lol. You guys have made self-pity the very reason for your existence.

          Thats all you guys keep doing.

          Recently Pakistanis did a lot of rona-dhona after new-zealand and england showed you your ‘aukaat’ by withdrawing from the tours? Your PM has been publically whining about US govt ignoring him for some time now.

          Anyway scoot off. My comment was about Indians. Pakistanis like yourselves cannot add any meaning to the debate.

          1. Brother I did not even reply to you, perhaps you should look at the post again. I just made a general comment. I mean, you are the one whining, and now I am just pointing that out 🙂

      2. I think Pakistani middle class is in the 90s stage of Indian middle class. Indian middle class too during its rise in the 90s were far too concerned on moving up the ladder, and replacing the old rich/elite to have time for self pity.

        Its most recently there has been a split in Indian middle class where you now have a rise of the woke middle class consisting of children of the 90s middle class, who rage about ‘revolution against the state’ and ‘standing with the downtrodden’. Soon it will happen in Pakistan middle class too, don’t know if it will be large enough.

  30. the catholics of goa still remember their earlier castes (bamon, gurikar,etc), some the christians of kerala also remember their earlier castes. do kerala or tamil muslims remember their earlier castes? my experience with kannada muslims is that they don’t remember their castes.
    any comments?

    1. Goa has Christian Kshatriyas. LOL.

      Always reminds me of Muslim Rajpoots of Pakistan. Sadly haven’t come across Muslim Marathas…

          1. But still the chutzpah to have a name like Arya in Dravidian homeland, and then being successful. Salute…

          2. Even after so many years, the Gangetics have no clue, not so surprising though. Stage names can range from Aryan to Russian, it doesn’t mean anything. There are plenty of Lenin’s and Stalin’s in the cinema industry, doesn’t make us culturally closer to Russians.


    So this article by Imran Khan is nothing spectacular, same old , same old. But one thing really caught my eye. And that’s what he talks about not one but three previous Pakistan premier.

    “Pakistan’s military dictator Pervez Musharraf agreed to every American demand for military support after 9/11. This cost Pakistan, and the United States, dearly.

    President Asif Zardari, undoubtedly the most corrupt man to have led my country, told the Americans to continue targeting Pakistanis because “collateral damage worries you Americans. It does not worry me.” Nawaz Sharif, our next prime minister, was no different.”

    Now call me old fashioned but this level of accusations against previous Premier in a foreign newspaper by current PM, seems really odd. I mean within one’s own country, there is a lot of mudslinging on previous Premier ( Modi on Nehru, Congress on Vajpayee etc), but overseas i am yet to see PMs calling their predecessor names.

    1. Kaptaan and his team enjoys talking like that. Nawaz-Zardari didn’t even put Imran in jail or rigged elections or beat up his party members. The corruption charges against Nawaz are not egregious and his loyalty can’t be questioned.


    India will need more than green hydrogen

    Unless political economy issues around discoms are addressed, India’s renewable energy plans will fail

    PM Modi could coordinate a ‘coalition of the willing’ in which BJP-ruled states join hands with solar- and wind-intensive states such as Tamil Nadu, which have the most to gain from a renewable energy-friendly distribution policy, and commit to a reform package with teeth

  33. subramaniam swamy is actively supporting jagan. i feel his scheme is to get a rajya sabha nomination from jagan’s party, since it is doubtful that he may not get a renomination by bjp.

    1. Can Swamy still wail against ‘Christian conversions’ and all once Jagan nominates him? Plus will he revert back to his secular ‘Lets ban RSS and BJP’ avatar of pre 2000s?

      I think BJP might nominate him just to keep his mouth shut. Since he has nuisance value of legally blocking Govt initiatives and all/.

  34. With regards to the Indian reservation system what happens into mixed caste babies where the parents are from different categories (say a forward caste person marries a scheduled caste) ?

    Is it the one drop rule or patrilineal or something else?

    (I think as a long term policy the one drop rule would be the best)

    1. father’s caste prevails in education and jobs. surprisingly their original caste prevails in politics. eg. meera kumar, daughter of jagjeevan ram who is married to a brahmin contests in the s c reserved seat.
      also ‘tribals’ like ajit jogi although are christians , contest in the s t seats.

    1. This is an incorrect translation.

      He clearly says “all Hindus I have seen in my life are dark, but you look like a Pathan (fair)”

      1. Yes. Correct. Most pak hindus are dalits. It makes sense. Most dalits are dark

        “You look fair, resembling a Pathan. ”

        Is around what I translated it to

        1. Pretty much every Hindu in Pakistan that I have met were generally fair or the same color as their neighbors, not dark at all. This is mostly in Karachi & Hyderabad.

          Christians on the other hand, were almost always darker than the surrounding population.

      2. My translation

        “All the hindus I have seen in my life have have been a little bit black (uses the English word black, possibly wants to say dark), but you look like a Pathan, white / fair”

        I don’t think it was meant in a demeaning way at all.

        I can easily see someone making this same comment in an Indian context mate to a fair skinned south Indian person telling them they look Kashmir

        Or even within a western context by a non Indian telling someone they don’t look Indian.

  35. Mulana doest meant in bad taste at all , this is common jargon used by average folks all day , if someone is lighter than average in Pak Punjab , people say look more Pathan etc . Similarly Black is just easy word for darker , used by common people. Only wrong thing is that he is stereotyping a religion with color or racial atribute , when follower of a religion can be anyone but even this is subconsciously done by us all the time , we think of christains to be white europeans , muslims to be dark haired/dark eyed people and so on.

    Ancedotal story , here in Germany most Indians are of South Indian IT types and here we have a Pak Sindhi Hindu guy who look like Salman Butt , he went to a diwali festival by ISA and he told me ,every one there told him , you dont look Hindu , you look Paki/Muslim etc

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