338 thoughts on “Open Thread – 09/09/2022 – Brown Pundits”

      1. Since it was mined in India, and stayed in India, it should be returned to India. But then the British museum would be empty if they started returning the artifacts they plundered.

  1. India declaring a day of mourning is peak clown behavior, especially after literally calling the word Rajpath a colonial vestige.

  2. India declaring a day of mourning is peak clown behavior, especially after saying that the word Rajpath is a colonial vestige – a day before.

    1. So sad. Granted many elites collaborated and were enriched under their reign, so they love the monarchy.

  3. The Queen’s demise has triggered British empire derangement syndrome among Indians and Africans on social media. They denounce the Queen in the Queen’s English.

    1. “but I am pissed off, bitch is dead”

      Why was she a bitch? Real reasons please, not just retarded moral equivalence, jingoism and injured national pride.

      1. real reason is because she was a monarch who oversaw the colonial regime of which she is singularly a beneficiary. That is enough of a reason , after all, if they go about claiming civilizing India, it is more than fair to call them as such.

        1. India gained Independence in 1947, Queen Elizabeth became Queen in 1952 – five years after. She was Queen during Decolonization period.

  4. Some queries about South Asian ancestry for Razib:

    —How much Anatolian/Anatolia and CHG ancestry do South Asians have, particularly in the North and Northwest? I know the IVC component has Anatolia in it, what about other ancestral components?

    —How much BMAC ancestry do South Asians have?

    Can someone breakdown the math here:

    The Harappa Ancestry Project has a “ South Indian” component, which is apparently 50% West Eurasian and 50% East Eurasian, or ASI. Initially people thought the ASI was fully East Eurasian.

    Now I realize that since then, we have further refined ASI into AASI and Iran-related ancestry, the question is, what ratio is this ancestry present in?

    —Is ASI 33% West Eurasian and 66% AASI? Or is it 30% West Eurasian and 70% AASI? I’ve heard both numbers quoted and wanted to confirm.

    —Finally, I’ve read that AASI, particularly in the NW, has residual West Eurasian affinity as well, from ANE admixture. It also lies on/close to the West Eurasian boundary. Do we know anything about this in terms of raw numbers? What % of AASI is W. Eurasian?

    So if someone starts out with 40% South Indian, they would be 20% ASI, of which 33% is West Eurasian, so they would be around 13.4% AASI or East Eurasian, and 86.6% West Eurasian.

    —Is this correct? Or does the West Eurasian fraction of the South Indian score vary? What about ASI? Is it always 30-33% West Eurasian/Iran-related?

    If anyone has input, please chime in. Thanks all.

  5. Are NW South Asians like the Kambojas and Rors, Jaats, Jats, Arain, Khatri/Aroras and certain Sindhis West Eurasian peoples?


    Going by PCA, Oracles and admixture, it certainly seems like they are. They look to be as West Eurasian as Pashtuns/Pakhtuns and Kho/Chitrali people.

    This means they are all in the same 85-90% West Eurasian range, with the only difference being the % of Steppe, BMAC, Iran and AASI/E. Asian combo.

    Does this mean proper South Asia ends with UP Brahmins? It certainly seems like these NW tribes are best described as SouthCentral Asians as opposed to South Asians, as they not only originate from Central Asia, but have also retained their West Eurasian character/race as well. And since West Eurasians are intrusive to South Asia, these tribes are the personification of that intrusiveness physically and genetically.

    1. Generally, populations west of the Indus River should be termed as West Eurasians.

      Typically, from the DNA results (HarrappaWorld) I’ve seen, the most western-shifted South Asians are equal to the most eastern-shifted South Central Asians (Iranics and some Dardics).

      1. That makes no sense. Geography doesn’t determine West Eurasian-ness. Besides, these NW South Asian populations are migrants from west of the Indus River/Central and Southwest Asia to begin with, and Turkic and Mongol migrations and the Arab expansion pushed them towards NW South Asia. It’s just that some stayed behind in Afghanistan/Pakistan, which is also South Asian.

        Pakistan as a whole can never be considered West Eurasian, and neither can Afghanistan. Half of Afghanistan is not West Eurasian because of the huge Hazara/Uzbek/Turkic/Mixed Tajik influenced population present there. The vast majority of Pashtuns live in Pakistan as well, and so do Baloch and Brahui.

        Nearly all the Central Asian countries are not West Eurasian, and there are plenty of people in Southwest Asia, like in Southern/Eastern Iran, Gulf countries, Turkey, Azerbaijan, the Levant, Northern Africa and the Arab peninsula that are not West Eurasian due to excess ENA or SSA admixture. There are even entire population groups in the Caucasus and Russia and NE and Eastern Europe that are heavily East Eurasian influenced/mixed to the point where they are no longer West Eurasian either.

        But NW South Asian groups like the ones outlined above are definitely West Eurasian phenotypically and genetically— both on PCA, admixture and Oracles. They all have the same amount of AASI/ENA, within the same range and SD: 85-90%.

        I’ve seen the admixture breakdown for Kambojas and Khatris/Aroras/Sindhis, Jat Sikhs, Rors, Jaat Hindus, and Arains, and all of these tribes cluster with Pashtuns and Kho people and Kalash, including Northern/Eastern/Southern Pashtuns. They are also equally as West Eurasian as these groups in admixture and Oracles.

        Therefore, within South Asia, Pashtuns/Pakhtuns/Kho/Chitrali and Jaat/Ror/Kamboja/Khatri/Sindhi/Arain/Kalash are all within the same West Eurasian cluster. The maps above show this as well.

        1. Link to Admixture averages:

          Quick G25 run using Davidski’s model on the populations displayed on Araingang’s map. Unfortunately, only the publicly available averages were used, as I don’t have all the same coordinates. https://t.co/wjANMsJsJ0 pic.twitter.com/hwsjs63RZM— Amadeus (@ElShujinko) July 12, 2022

          SisBA2 is ~25% AASI. Han is either noise (for Jaats) or present at minor amounts (for Pashtuns/Kho/Chitralis). Adding up AASI and Han, along with any minor ENA in Anatolia gives the same 85-90% range for all aforementioned NW South Asian populations, from Jaats/Jats to the Pashtuns, Kambojas and others.

  6. Just a note on AASI:

    It seems that there are different ‘strains’ of AASI in South Asia/India, with at least three or four different localized variants of it in the subcontinent, at least going by what I’ve read.

    The Southern AASI strain best models South Indians and tribals and harbors some additional Hohabinhian and actual Onge like admixture that is completely absent in the NW and Northern AASI strains. This is according to the admixture model.

    There also seems to be an Eastern AASI strain that harbors some Austroasiatic and SE Asian type admixture which is absent among NW and Northern AASI.
    Finally, the NW AASI strain is the only one shared with West Eurasians. It also appears to have a different phenotype from the other AASI strains, at least based on the appearance of AASI heavy indigenes in the NW region of South Asia.

    This means AASI has huge diversity in phenotype and genotype within South Asia and mixing with a different AASI strain will have a big impact on phenotype. Perhaps why South Indian Brahmins (and indeed all South Indians) have a distinctive look that other Brahmins lack and South Asians lack. Also why Bengalis/East Indians tend to be distinctive as well.

    AASI also has zero relationship to Onge/Andamanese people, and this is true for all strains of AASI. Tibetans and certain SE Asians are far closer to Onge than AASI. Only the Southern AASI strain has some extra admixture from an Onge like source, but it isn’t directly derived from it fully.

  7. Britain went from from a creditor nation to a debtor nation. Was it because of corruption, mismanagement and privatization.

    Privatization is white washed, rebranded corruption.
    Stealing public assets into private pockets.

    Now to corruption and mismanagement in the UK.
    The UK amassed huge wealth stealing from the colonies. Worse they were drug dealers in a huge scale. eg Opium wars, where US, UK forced China to buy Opium in exchange for their industrialized goods. Yes, China was more industrialized than UK in the past. They made China a country of drug addicts and Chinas society collapsed. China only recovered in the 70’s and is now a world power leaving UK in the dust.

    For corruption and mismanagement look no further than COVID deaths. Despite colossal amounts of money spent there were 188,242 deaths (2,742/1M) compared to Sri Lankas 16.700 deaths (773/1M). The beauty is how the corruption and mismanagement is papered over, by calling it privatization (the same in US). Heads should roll for the number of deaths essentially a war crime but the uK population is gullible and bamboozled.

    Despite all the wealth obtained by rape and pillage of the colonies the UK is in debt 2,233 billion (103.7% of GDP). 27% of UK debt was overseas-owned, and China was the largest single country in that figure. That suggests that China might own about 15% of UK debt — so about 267 billion.

    Many of its iconic cars have been sold. eg Jaguar Land Rover (India), MG (china), Mini and Rolls-Royce (Germany/BMW), Bentley (Germany/VW). Its a good possibility the German acquisitions too will need to be sold with the energy shortage and economic collapse. Probably to China or even Russia they are both awash in money. The wheel turns, the wealth obtained by rape and pillage is returning to the East.
    NOTE: not a reflection on the Queen. She was a titular head and not a driver of policy.


  8. Who comes up with these stupid ideas.
    The first question that should be asked is the price cap only on Russian Oil.

    Here is a scenario Russia does not export at or below price cap to EU. That shortfall will need to be covered, say from mid east oil. Russia sells to mid east above price cap. Mid east sells above price cap+markup+transportation (compared to pipe line delivery).

    Whats even more stupider is that EU did not want long term contracts for gas and oil. On advice from US/Wall Street they only wanted on oil/gas on spot price.

    Its ching ching to Russia.


  9. Recent HDI rankings were released and India dropped from a value of 0.645 to 0.633 and ranks at 132. I believe a significant cause is the decline in life expectancy. An average Indian will now only live for 67.2 years, 3 years less than an Iraqi, almost 5 years less than a Bangladeshi, and almost 10 years less than a Sri Lankan on average.

    As I was going through the rankings, one more interesting tidbit is the mean years of schooling in India- which is just 6.7 years, lower than Palestine, Lebanon or any of the war torn countries. It’s even lower than Iraq which has mean school years of 7.9.

    This is just decades and decades of neglect for providing even the most basic services. Really puts in perspective all the hoopla and chest thumping about being the 5th biggest economy.

    1. While I agree with your comment in general, the figure 1 billion should give us a pause / perspective.

      And China should not be a frame of reference.

    2. when one is talking of India, one has to talk of individual states, it is too big to compare to those countries. averages mask accountability.

    3. What data do they use to calculate India’s HDI given that India has not undertaken a census in more than a decade?

    4. it would be great if people held the union government accountable for such abysmal results. large swathes of india are worse than the poorest subsaharan african countries and war-torn countries.

      but the sycophants will always come up with excuses. it’s all manmohan singh’s fault, it will take a while to recover! if that fails, it’s all nehru’s fault, hindoo rate of growth, grr! and if that fails, then it’s aurangzeb’s fault.

  10. I want to be on record, i was the only one on this site who wondered whether ukraine was not going easily for russia, i did think it could be an ambush. but then again, the peer pressure in here got me to think russia would win for sure. I blame you all in here.

  11. “I see perhaps US expected russia to do this and planned and prepared ukraine in laying a trap in frustrating russia…”
    “I still consider this as advantage russia. Given their army and capabilities as better overall. But I doubt whether they have clear goals on what to achieve and wonder whether their soldiers are prepared to being ruthless.
    But I now see this as russia committed itself to this completely. It is always better to find a face saver for all sides. Also, I find ukraine really dumb for accepting these risks.”

    “I remember new democracy metrics have been created, even for america in 1940’s are considered as not democracy. Only democracy that is valid according to them is liberal democracy. Regime change wars/ demography change wars. Constant conflict by col peters in 1997 has come true. Liberal imperialism. Same with russia. In fact now that I see, here is how i join the dots.
    From 2003 onwards America calculated (they have supercomputers to calculate different scenarios. In fact one of their machines predicted charan singh to become pm of India). Not that they give absolute correct prediction. But they must have seen that with rising china, in about 50 yrs china would become what it is today, simple compound interest will tell you that. Same with India, in 50 yrs, India probably will hit 16 trillion dollar economy. Given this scenarios, they needed to remove autocratic governments because china by itself has zero role in world, but with enough chess pieces on the board, china can cause some harm. So, perhaps, this was the reason why america went about getting rid of saddam, gadafi, and have been trying regime change wars in russia, and trying to either facilitate demographic change in India or regime change in India. Bcos in about another 50 yrs, world might get a lot more complicated. I just never understood america wasting away its resoures in the naughts, libya, iraq etc and now even russia, there is a thread on twitter that points to how every tom dick and harry saw ukraine joining nato would lead to war with russia. So, why do it?. Because russia is a very important piece in geostrategic chess board and in future, china might use it, unless, they get rid off it or diminish it.?
    For some reason, I feel I have hit upon a deep truth about america. Perhaps they have been playing on the future 50 yrs geostrategic board ?. After all, that is what their strategic literature always focusses on future scenarios. Also, america is now calling the bluff on nukes, why this chutzpah? . Why does it not respect others security interests/ balance of power?. Liberal internationalism is aggressive,bold, is time running out for powr differnce us engoyed?”

    Third paragraph was my hottest take and an inspired one. I am forced to admit, liberal internationalism is bold. I expect a serious change now only after 2100. It is not enough to be a super power, one needs to have big buffers before one takes on US led world.

    1. Doubt anyone is thinking this hard at the State Department. All the Kagans and Frums are just midwits focusing on basic personal advancement.

      Though, there once were genuinely smart and virtuous people running US foreign policy. But that ended with the generation that won US, the Second World War. America until then was a rising power, like China or India today, competing against the established European powers. To rise, you need smart people. But since 1945, America has been on easy mode. It’s the top dog. That results in a State Department full of Kagans rather than Kennans.

      Perhaps, the experience of America can serve as a warning to China/India/Russia who themselves want to reach the top. Once you reach the top, it’s all downhill.

    2. phyeco1

      some of the many factors and cold hard reality you are not thinking about

      a) the biggest, the US is running on debt with ever increasing trade deficits.
      Not sustainable as US is a very complex society needing ever increasing inputs.

      b) The US is no longer a manufacturing country, specially needs.
      Heck, no one needs their overpriced military stuff either.
      The only countries that buy are those that think there is a guarantee.
      i.e. That is the US will step in in a conflict (eg Taiwan)
      facebook, google are wants not needs for a tiny proportion of worlds population.

      c) Russia is awash in natural resources over and above its needs.
      It has not even tapped its Siberian/Arctic resources either.
      eg. Oil, gas and Uranium absolute needs for everyone
      Yeah, the US would love to break up Russia into small states and get at their goodies, i.e. natural resources.

      d) The Chinese Russian nexus means China get resources to continue be the foremost manufacturing producer for the world.
      In contrast, Europe is cutting its foot by sanctioning cheap Russian energy.
      That means manufacturing is either going to very expensive and/or go out of business. There is only so many months/years they can be bailed out by the govts.

      1. @sbarrkum

        Keep in mind, America also has a lot of natural resources comparable to Russia. And if you include Canada, which for all practical purposes is just a state of the US, then the country is mostly self-sufficient with regards to resources. And there is a large faction of the North American population that is willing to invest in and do the dirty work of extracting those resources if only allowed by the government. The Shale Revolution of 2010s comes to mind.

        Europe on the other hand is a lost case, I agree. I genuinly do not understand these people. They seem to think that its their current moral “superiority” that results in their wealth. Both the government and the people are nuts.

        Whats gonna happen, I think is that the remaining manufacturing in Europe will move to America where energy is much cheaper. Moving to China or heck even other parts of Asia is out of question. That era is of globalization is over. US has drawn the line and all the Western capital will stay increasingly stay within the region.

  12. well, empirical evidence suggests, they are thinking this hard. left afhanistan to bait putin into ukraine. trained ukraine troops for ambush. With putin old and a catastrophe in war with ukraine, his legacy will be tarnished, and he will be too old/sick(i hear cancer) to change it. And with sanctions on russia, it creates perfect breeding ground for a color revolution. China needs to make sure this does not happen. But that would mean it has to invest in russia. US recently gave 450 million dollars for f 16 in pakistan under guise of fighting terrorism leaving many experts scratching heads. Clearly, these f16s are meant to bolster pak vs India. America sees all these as frenemies, and wants to use each of these to check the others. A theory I read from some foreign policy expert. China uses russia to keep europe occupied, US uses India to keep china occupied, china and us use pak to keep India occupied. essentially, all non US powers are left in a mexican stand off with each other and america keeps suppling arms.
    To @sbarrkum , I just dont see US declining. As pointed out, they do have natural resources and can also tap into gulf country or lift bans on venezuela and reach agreement there. saudis also are people they can depend on for now. Their scientific/technology/economy/military class in number one. I now see wokeism as useful export by USA to disorient other countries, there is backfire as well but it will hurt USA much less than other countries. Anyone who thinks nyt or other news agencies in usa work independently of us intel/ govt are lying to themselves.
    “Spy Schools: How the CIA, FBI, and Foreign Intelligence Secretly Exploit America’s Universities ”
    did not read the book, but it answers that usa and other intelligence agencies use universities to recruit people. They even offer seats in universities to children of defectors and spies as a tactic to recruit them.
    Today, one has to give credit to usa where they did outthink their opponents. The whole ukraine thing had my spider tingle go off, it was obvious that after afghanistan withdrawal, one should expect some initiative from either china or russia, of which putin leading russia would have been an ideal candidate to set an ambush for. putin took his chance( should have worked on a face saving deal instead perhaps). I am confident that US is as terrifying as the results have shown over past 100 yrs. They did not lose their ability to think things through, though have been lazy at times or indiscriminate.

    1. I want all this to be true, and really hope the us deep state is secretly playing 4d chess. I just dont think that is the case.

      You have heard of the old maxim: “never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

      Perhaps we can modify it: “never attribute competence to that which is adequately explained by luck”.

      1. to sumit, to differentiate malice/stupidity might be confusing, but luck and competence are easy to differentiate. luck is sporadic, it doesnt guarantees victory unless everything else is put in place. incompetent people cannot get that lucky for that long.

  13. Hey Razib and other folks, I hope you’ll answer some questions I have.

    Q: Yamnaya is 50-55% EHG and 45-50% CHG/Iran_Chl related; while, EHG in Russian Steppe had a quarter of CHG ancestry. So, does Yamnaya have more CHG type ancestry than EHG ancestry in total if CHG in EHG is also taken into account or did the CHG type ancestry get diluted in EHG before forming Yamnaya with CHG/Iran_Chl?

    Q. Were battle axe culture in Scandinavia and bell beaker culture in the UK similar in terms of pigmentations?

    Q. Did a ANE rich population (60%+) ever live in South Asia?

    Q. Did Y-DNA haplogroup R2 in Iran_hg came from ANE?

  14. Some fun stuff for the weekend.

    Munneswaram, along with Koneswaram (Trincomalee), Naguleswaram (Keerimalai), Thiruketheeshwaram (Mannar), forms the five ancient temples (Ishwarams) dedicated to Shiva in the region including Sri Lanka.

    The Kali temple is also popular with Buddhists, who frequent the complex. Post-19th century, most of the devotees of all temples in the complex belong to the majority Sinhala Buddhist ethnic group; the temples, excluding the Ayyanayake and the Buddhist temple, are administered by families belonging to the minority Hindu Tamils.

    The Kali temple is a popular sorcery and cursing shrine associated with animal sacrifices and spirit possession. Spirit possession of devotees was noted by the Jesuit priests who left behind records of it in the 16th century.

    Devotees approaching the Goddess The music is Kaavadi, the same genre as in cricket matches and parties (called Papare at cricket matches)
    These are paid dancers.

    The main act, the businessman/(or thug) approaching with wife (in green blouse)
    Note: Sinhalese dont do serious vows like body piercing.
    To me this whole thing looks like they are at a party/disco.


    In the Deep South, Devinuwara Sri Vishnu temple festival.
    This is the tourist heavy stretch coastline.
    So guess many here are part of tourist industry.
    Same party atmosphere.

    For comparison Kavadi in Jaffna

    I posted this to show no Hindu or Tamil antipathy in SL
    Anti separatism no question.
    When searching for Kavadi was surprised at the number of Kali Temples all over SL.

    And then you get kavadi music at cricket matches.
    Then its called Papare.
    The two links below are from the school big matches.
    I went to one of the schools.
    We start early, for me first big match was grade 6 age 11.
    Grade 9, age 14 get drunk and enjoy the Papare.


    As the end of the day approaches, the music intensifies and most are drunk.
    By this time of the day, I’ll be the guy without a shirt.
    Three days of non stop drinking. Dont have the energy any longer.

  15. this is kavadi in Matale, near Kandy. (Central Highlands)
    Indian origin Estate Tamils.
    Serious stuff, the Sinhalese commenting in the audience is shocked.

    Getting ready, i.e. piercing the body.
    Kondavil Kali Kovil, Jaffna

    Note the Sinhalese Kavadi/Papare is a mixture of the original Hindu Kavadi with high pitched sax like instruments and Portuguese funeral/catholic processions with trumpets (like big bands). Trust the Sinhalese to take both and make into fun music.

    1. No. It’s Gujaratis screwing Indian taxpayers outside Gujarat. The amount of taxpayer funds spent on the Ahmedabad bullet train, Patel statue and now this is obscene.

        1. That’s what I don’t get. If a state generates enough money, then they can put a statue in every nook and corner. Tamil Nadu produces enough to give out color televisions and grinders to its populace. It also gives out scooty to girls , while poorer Bihar is giving out cycles.

          No body bats an eye lid when Delhi metro opened essentially from equal center and state resources even though Delhi as a state had enough money to bankroll it.

        2. Nobody knows the total amount contributed by PSU’s to the construction of the Patel statue. The Ahmedabad bullet train is funded by an 6,000 crore loan from Japan but it has to be paid back. Is the state of Gujarat or the Centre going to pay back the loan? The godi media gives the impression the bullet train will be built with free money from Japan.

      1. the sad part of the Gujarat bias is that Modi has picked a terrible Gujarati architect for all his big projects. Central Vista, Kashi Corridor come to mind. The latter is so poorly done, the columns and pillars look like a very cheap imitation of Graeco-Roman architecture.

        1. Lol sounds like more of a bad taste in architects. There are great Gujarati ones too. Not saying there isn’t Gujarati bias (there is) but the main driver seems of had architecture seems more bad taste than ethnic preference, unless one were to believe that all Gujarati architects suck and therefore by virtue of picking one, the projects would all suck.

          This would be like Kennedy picking a Catholic architect who happened to suck and then blaming it on mostly the fact that he picked a catholic. The assertion is kind of dick itself, without acknowledging the full context. It is literally bigoted because it paints an entire group of people with one broad brush.

  16. with reference to local congress arranging meeting with a rabid anti hindu christian padre:
    1) it appears now that congress has joined the battle for christian votes in tamilnadu.
    2) the elite christians of kerala appear not too confrontational with bjp. in absence of an elite christian group in tamilnadu, the fight for their votes is between dmk and congress. are nadar christians considered elite in tamilnadu?
    3) hindus need a so called ‘standard hindu narrative’ vis-a vis christianity and islam.

  17. News on India’s EV revolution –

    – Ather Energy sold 50000 EV scooters cumulatively at the end of August. The first 10K took 35 months. The last 10K took 2 months! This IIT Madras startup (and Bengaluru HQ’ed) is going places…

    – KPIT Technologies of Pune, a Tier 1 supplier to Global EV companies in the area of software defined automobiles, has patented its sodium-ion battery and is looking for prototype production. Sodium-Ion is 40-50% cheaper than a Lithium ion battery.

    – Faradion, the leader in research for sodium-ion batteries, has been acquired by Ambani (Reliance Industries) who is trying to enter battery production.

    – The newly appointed Director-General of CSIR is Dr. Kalaiselvi who is a specialist in fundamental battery research.

    There you have it……perfect indicators of a growing ecosystem by both government and private initiatives. If things come to fruition, we should see a complete exit of ICE engines from the 2-wheeler space in the next 10 years.

    The last great technological revolution in India was the mobile telecom (scams included). We put a phone/internet/digital money in almost every Indian’s hand in just 15 years.

  18. Seems some people are really trying to create a Hindutva boogeyman in the West.

    Someone is distributing a clearly fake death threat being circulated as being attributed to a hindutva supporter.

    The whole thing is comically fake to anyone familiar with how hindutva ppl talk / what memes they care about. For eg. they wouldn’t say it has “defamed Hindutva ideology” would just say it has insulted the “goddess Kali / Hinduism”.

    But people on r/ontario seem to believe it is true

    r/abcds is more aware but some still believe

    This kinda stuff is why I am convinced the caste stuff bubbling up of late will just be a tool for anti-brown and anti-hind bigotry.

    Really hope the perp is caught.

    1. This is scary and disgusting. On the one hand, it’s so poorly done that hopefully the record will be set straight. On the other hand, the anti-Hindu rhetoric has worked and many non-Hindus seem to be falling for this in r/ontario.

      99% likely it’s a Khalistani behind it.

    2. Pak nationalists and Khalistani element of Sikh diaspora is WAY better at propaganda. Their youth are WAY more loyal to their causes, even in 2nd and 3rd gen. Deracination is way more an Indian Hindu diaspora thing. Wokeness is going to screw Hindu Indian diaspora.

      Look at forums like reddit. You see a ton of activity from aforementioned groups. They are WAY more into homeland politics and super engaged. So they disproportionately have an impact on the narrative in the West.

      What is considered “uncle stuff” for most of the youth in Hindu community is considered part of the “woke activist” package in the others. The mobilization at the ground level is wild. It is crazy to gangs of 2nd 3rd gen Punjabis brag about “Jatt” and vandalize Gandhi statues. You can tell how their upbringing didn’t stamp put the anti social behavior that led to their gang proclivities, yet somehow maintained the ethno supremacy and religious hate. That is some powerful voodoo.

    3. I mean look at the recent Fremont Taco Bell incident. It is an embodiment of what is going on. Looking at the location of this crap, I have a pretty good sense of the type of forces that are behind this BS. Biradri ethonosupremacy may be in check in India and Pak from other forces. But it runs the show in inter desi Canadian politics and some regions of NorCal. Add in some of the Christian activism missionary politics with vested Pak nationalist interest and you get a pretty powerful force to malign the Hindu anglophone diaspora.

  19. Thought experiment: Would India have turned out differently if it had remained a symbolic constitutional monarchy rather than becoming a republic when it gained independence from England?

    Given the negligible formal power of a constitutional monarchy, you wouldn’t think so, but I’m not convinced that the symbolism wouldn’t have caused some changes.

    Alternatively, what if it had stayed a constitutional monarchy, but with an Indian monarch rather than a British one?

  20. Long time reader maybe my 1st post(unless I commented 3 years back, maybe I did)

    I don’t think the samples that HarappaWorld has or whatever represents most Bengali Brahmins. I’ve been scrolling through Google Images browsing through different “Chatterjees” and “Mukherjees” both of which are as you know Kulin Bengali Brahmin names and honestly I’ve come to the conclusion that yes, some of them do have less Mong but a very significant percentage of them have more Mong than me, someone who has 16% Mongoloid(NE Asian+SE Asian+Siberian). I’ve been thought to be Mestizo or Nepali in the past too so I guess some do see the Mongoloid admixture in me. Anyways, yeah a lot of the Bengali Brahmins look Asiatic/Mongoloid af and I find it hard to believe that all of them have around 5% Mong LOL that is way too little, wayyyy too much of an exaggeration. They’re either similar to me or MORE in terms of Mong.

    Some people might say phenotype isn’t genotype but seriously it is. You can’t use exceptions to say that a rule doesn’t apply lol your phenotype IS your genotype, ofc ur gonna get exceptions in a population of 8 billion, doesn’t mean it changes anything. 5% Mong is CERTAINLY not enough to sway someone’s appearance that much, in such a large number of people. There’s just not enough samples.

    Also I dunno if Mr. Razib cares about this dna stuff much these days but my ancestral origins on both sides are in Rangpur Division, specifically in a district called Dinajpur. In the past it was part of Kamrup and Kamata Kingdom and then the Mughals in 1686 but I’ve only seen one result from that part of Bangladesh before and incidentally enough that person had similar results to mine lol and I’m talking about HarappaWorld too. I was actually talking to this Bengali Brahmin dude on Reddit a while back cuz he got 12% EHG on IllustrativeDNA while I got 13.6% and it was weird to me.

    Anyways my result is
    ASI= 42.81%

    Baloch= 27.23%

    Caucasian= 5.98%

    NE Euro= 4.54%

    SE Asian= 6.21%

    NE Asian= 9.16%

    Papuan= 0.77%

    American= 0.27%

    Beringian= 0.74%

    Mediterranean= 0.26%

    San= 0.19%

    1. I also get like 19.4% Turkic+Mongol on the Turkic k11 calculator which is insane and corrobarates what my parents have told me.

      Also on Vahaduo my sample can be modelled as this with scaled G25coordinates and samples with a distance of 2.0451
      IND_Roopkund_A: 76.4
      KAZ_Karakhanid: 13.4
      Roopkund C: 6.6
      KAZ_Karluk: 3.6

      13.4+3.6= 17% Turkic

      Even with a 2 way model with IND_Roopkund_A and KAZ_Karluk I get a distance of 2.4373 which it itself pretty close
      IND_Roopkund_A: 72.4
      KAZ_Karluk: 27.6

      And these models are corroborated by IllustrativeDNA mixed mode stuff ofc as well as the Turkic k11 calculator on yourdnaportal and genoplot. I got much higher Turkic than even a lot of Turks lol and pretty much all of the ppl who posted here(31 pages)

      So yeah guess my parents weren’t lying lol pretty surprising stuff. I’m Bengali btw Razib pls talk more about Bengali genetics/genealogy/ancestry your posts on that stuff were amazing

  21. yeah so pretty much I don’t think the Bengali Brahmin samples on HarappaWorld and stuff don’t reflect the diversity of the population. Been scrolling through google images and seeing many Chatterjees and Mukherjees etc and yes there are some who do look more North than Bengali but quite a significant amount look regular Bengali or even a more Mongoloid-enriched Bengali. No way they would have 5% or less Mong admix tbh people say phenotype isn’t genotype but you can’t have phenotype without genotype and exceptions to a rule doesn’t mean the rule is invalid or doesn’t apply, everything has an exception and you will always get outliers in a population of 8+ billion people. I don’t buy that that these guys and girls who look straight up more Asiatic than me and other Bengalis have low amounts of Mong, there are levels to this, it’s just not plausible. There just isn’t enough samples for Bengali Brahmins is all.

    I’m a Bengali with ancestral origins from Dinajpur, which is in Rangpur Bangladesh (North Bengal) and the only other Harappaworld result I’ve seen from there was actually quite similar to mine lmao it was an HRP0 something I forget. Region was part of Kamarupa and Kamata Kingdom etc in the past and then the Mughals in 1686. My three closest populations were Bengalis, Bengali Brahmins and Biharis so clearly I’ve got a bit of a point.

    My result lol I got like 17% Mong which is like much higher than the 13% that regular Bengalis get hahahaha but the other Rangpur result had an 18% number as well. He also got like 4% Caucasian and I got 6% which is strange cuz Bengalis get 0% or 1%

    ASI= 42.81

    Baloch= 27.23

    Caucasian= 5.98

    NE Euro= 4.54

    SE Asian= 6.21

    Siberian= 1.84

    NE Asia= 9.16

    Papuan= 0.77

    American= 0.27

    Beringian= 0.74

    Mediterranean= 0.26

    San= 0.19

    1. Interesting then it seems there is significant variance among the Bengali brahmins.

      I always thought West Bengal CM Mamta Banerjee looked quite south East Asian despite being a Brahmin

      1. Sumit,

        Yeah Mamata Banerjee is just one of many examples of what I was talking about. I’m not Bengali Brahmin btw fyi don’t know if I confused you all but I was talking about myself being a standard Bengali dude, a non-Kulin Brahmin person/person with that ancestry.

    2. @Pencil

      Would you mind posting your picture so we can compare and see if your genotype matches your phenotype? Would be interesting to compare to other Bengali Brahmins, and see if higher Mongoloid percentages affect the phenotype greatly.

      I have seen Bengali Brahmins who looked like North/Central Indians, both Bihari Brahmins, Bhumihars and even some that look similar to some UP Brahmins, so there must be a lot of diversity in their phenotype based on how much AASI/East/SE Asian admixture they have. On average though, I believe they are as West Eurasian as Iyers.

      1. Racelearner,

        I’m a regular Bengali, I’m not of Kulin brahmin heritage as I mentioned in the comment.

        I’m thinking about posting a picture or two but I need to find a site that I can delete from. Maybe I’ll just accept using IMGUR but I dont like how they now make you give them your phone number

  22. Sri Lanka wins Asian Netball Championship for 2nd year running.
    Probably thanks to evergreen, 2.06m (6′ 9″) -tall goal shooter Tharjini Sivalingam. She is retiring this year as she is turning 45, Wonder how SL will do without her.

    Tharjini Sivalingam another Sri Lankan Tamil doing SL proud.
    she has been recognized as one of the most successful shooters of all time and often regarded as the tallest netball player ever. She is the most capped international netball player to represent Sri Lanka.
    She also faced many hardships in her childhood as she grew up in warzone.
    she holds a degree in Economics from the Eastern University in Batticaloa


    1. Brown on Brown crime. Unless a NW South Asian was involved. Then it’s Brown on Olive/White-adjacent crime. Or unless a Mongoloid admixed ethnicity was involved (Nepali and Himachali, Assamese Hindus) then it’s Brown on Yellow crime. Or maybe both parties involved were Yellow, or Olive or even White? For a Pan-Brown poster you sure seem to bring up a lot of unnecessary past incidents. The truth is there is no such thing as pan Brown unity. NW South Asians (Afghan, Pakistani and NW Indian) are White on arrival in the USA. Just like NE Indians and Nepalis and many Bengalis and Hill state Indians and Turkic Afghans and Pakis are Asian (specifically East Asian) on arrival in the USA. And just like most Gujjus are like non-White Latinos and Hispanics on arrival in the USA. And just like some Gujjus and South and East Indians and more generally, Dravidians, are “Indian” and /or mixed Black Latinos on arrival in the USA. Water finds it own level. And so does biologically determined race, which is a reflection of your DNA. No point wasting time trying to foist an artificial brown identity upon 2 Billion plus people where there is no such thing to begin with.

      1. Even the US Census Bureau specifically states that the term “Asian Indian” on the US census race classification form is “not a meaningful description of racial ancestral or ethnic heritage and does not have any biological or scientific meaning”.

        Not only that, but multiple research papers and studies conducted by the US Census Bureau and other organizations in the US including the FBI, have all come to the same conclusion: that “Asian Indian” is not a race or an ethnic group and that South Asians are free to self identify as the racial and ethnic group that best fits their ancestry and race. We all know that it was Gujaratis that sought to change the racial classification of South Asians from “White” which is what it used to be in 1970, to “Asian Indian“ in an attempt to get low interest SBA loans from the Reagan administration.

        Through their efforts and petitioning, after 10 Long years, they successfully managed to create a contrived race classification box on the US census for their own selfish needs in 1980, as is typical for the Gujarati mindset. They didn’t care a tiny bit for the interests of other South Asians, be they East Asian or SE Asian, or Dravidian or Caucasian racially.

        What’s even more curious is the fact that they refused to co-opt the already existing categories for race in the US census. They could’ve easily chosen to fit in as non-white Latinos/Hispanics. Because that is what they look like by and large, and all they have to do is adopt new names, something most already do by anglicizing it in subsequent generations. They already follow American culture or are supposed to and religion is a non-issue in the United States. After all, being Latino/Hispanic is about following a particular culture. And that culture is very mutable in the United States, so as long as you look like you can pass for Latino and you have a particular name that fits, shit you don’t even need a Latino name, then that’s what you are racially and scientifically.

        My theory is that they were ashamed to be put in the same category as Latinos, as perhaps they look down upon them because they tend to be of a different socioeconomic class typically. Perhaps they forgot about the fact that there are also white Latinos and Hispanics, both in their own subcontinent and in Latin America. So Kal Penn AKA Kalpen Modi is just a non-white Latino by a different name. If he hadn’t sold himself as a stereotypical Indian by starring in movies where a south Indian surname is used to represent all South Asians I guarantee you no one would’ve ever thought he was Indian. I’m sure you also look like a typical non-white Latino, likely an indigenous or mestizo Latino as that is what 90% of Gujaratis are. Harnizo is unlikely but still possible, like Priti Patel or Amisha Patel and Aditya Pancholi. And Castizo like Mahesh Bhatt is very unlikely unless you are a Gujarati Brahmin or other High Caste. No Criollos in Gujarat except Parsis like Rohinton Patel, DDS, and merchant Khatris, who are not native to Gujarat. Besides, if you were a Castizo or a Criolo you wouldn’t be so complexed about your identity, so I have my money on the fact that your mestizo; Harnizo would be very unlikely but still somewhat possible.

        BTW look up “Parag Khanna TED talk Asia” and watch his TED talk. He explains how Indian is a menangless term and how we are all different from each other and mixed with different things. No one thinks he looks Indian, even in India, forget about the US. He took a DNA test and was 83% West Eurasian or Caucasian. That makes him a castizo genetically and he looks like one too. In the US he fits in perfectly as a Castizo American who can even be white passing.

        Even Nikki Haley who is a Castizo, and Preet Bharara, who is also a Castizo are considered white in the US by other white people. Whereas Nirav Tolia is considered a non-white Hispanic/Latino who insists upon being “Indian” when in reality he’s no longer Indian as that is nothing but a nationality and the Indian government will not come and save his ass when he is moored on an island And will refuse to consider him an Indian. It’s pathetic that he sticks to that identity when in reality he is now just a non-white Hispanic American— that is the true biologic and legal and scientific reality of his identity and he better get used to it. It’s like a non-white indigenous American coming to the US and having children and then telling his own children that they are not Hispanic American but Mexican American. Just complete nonsense.

        1. LMAO! The concept of race is mostly meaningless in modern India.
          Differences in India are along the religion/caste axis – which broadly fits under the “culture” umbrella.

          Most of this race and ancestry schizo is courtesy Indian-Americans who feel lost without being grouped.

        2. One of the funniest stories is of this Upper Caste Northwestern Indian. He may have thought he too was white on arrival, but perhaps not so much upon deportation.


          The guy tries to argue that he’s actually white, and therefore eligible for citizenship. They say, among other things…

          – he did not meet the common sense definition of White


          “The eligibility of this applicant for citizenship is based on the sole fact that he is of high caste Hindu stock, born in village Taragarh Talawa, Amritsar district, Punjab, one of the extreme north western districts of India, and classified by certain scientific authorities as of the Caucasian or Aryan race … In the Punjab and Rajputana, while the invaders seem to have met with more success in the effort to preserve their racial purity, intermarriages did occur producing an intermingling of the two and destroying to a greater or less degree the purity of the “Aryan” blood. The rules of caste, while calculated to prevent this intermixture, seem not to have been entirely successful … the given group cannot be properly assigned to any of the enumerated grand racial divisions. The type may have been so changed by intermixture of blood as to justify an intermediate classification. Something very like this has actually taken place in India. Thus, in Hindustan and Berar there was such an intermixture of the “Aryan” invader with the dark-skinned Dravidian.”

          Lots of interesting concepts there to pick apart and get a sense of how early 20th century American elite thought of India.

          100 years later, and Northwesterners still think like this.

          1. To be fair, this isn’t everyone by any means. The loons are just expressive and misrepresent/misunderstand data nowadays to justify their preconceived notions. They think spazzing more will make people buy their BS more.

            Lol, lot of gore talk in all folk songs. Then get a reality check in Canada and suddenly turn into “brown munde.” Good stuff

          2. @Hoju
            Even Italians and Lebanese Arabs and Palestinians and Afghans were not considered White by the Supreme Court in the time frame you are talking about. They had to contest in court to be assigned “White” status by fighting multiple court cases, with an anthropologist on hand to be given that status. Their entire community had to mobilize and come up with strategies to convince the court that they were “White” — using arguments like “Jesus was born in the Levant, so we are White” etc —- still, many were socially ostracized at the time and even lynched and banned from marrying others in certain states. And these are Europeans we are talking about. It took a long time for them to be considered White. In contrast, there were very few people from the Indian subcontinent in the US at the time, so no such community existed and moreover, there were no Northwesterners of Aryan descent present in any significant quantity needed to petition and campaign for their change of status.

            Besides, Bhagat Singh Thind is just one case, and it is no surprise that he wasn’t considered White — after all, he looks like a Harnizo and is an admixed Sikh Jatt— there were multiple other cases where Indians were individually classified as “White” by the courts, you should look up the case law history to see that it was a case by case basis, no different from how other nationalities were treated. In fact, even in the South, multiple Indians were classified as “White” and allowed to use “White-only” facilities as they were looked upon as White by other Americans. Indians were treated so well that when an African American man wore a turban and went to the South, he was considered to be an exotic White man and allowed to freely use all White facilities. He even remarked that Whites told him that they hated African Americans but that he was a distinguished gentleman from India.

            Furthermore, groups like Italians used Indian culture/image to further hasten their acceptance into American society— Rudolph Valentino dressed like a Maharaja and was considered an exotic man from the East, very popular with audiences. And just like Arabs and Northern Africans and Afghan and Latinos were eventually assigned “White” status, so were Indians — in fact, in the 1960s, my grandparents came to the US and were considered White on arrival — because by then, the US government had classified Indians as “White” — owing to the fact that immigration from India had increased enough to the point that the US government needed to classify them. So just like other West Eurasian Caucasoids living in Asia, Indians too were classified as White once their immigration reached critical mass. You only talk about a singular case in a particular context/time period in history, while neglecting to mention the whole timeline. You are likely a typical complexed and most likely indigenous South Asian who passes for a Dravidian. Don’t try to drag all of us down with you, it will never work.

            Jaats and Khatris and Kambojas are 86 to 88-92% West Eurasian. We are White and cluster within range of other West Eurasians. This is according to the latest cutting edge science. Look at the admixture averages I listed above. Since AASI has West Eurasian in it as well, these values will only increase in the future. There are Russians and Turks that cluster next to us on PCA maps. So we are definitely White. Whiter than North Africans even, who are also considered White. Deal with its

          3. @Hoju

            BTW, he wasn’t deported. On the contrary, he was not only given citizenship soon after the case, he was a successful businessman in his own community, and he married a White woman and had kids with her, all of whom were considered White. Other South Asians were also able to petition to stay thanks to Ganesh Pandit, a lawyer in the US. And starting in the 1940s, Indians began immigrating to the US in larger numbers, thanks to a decision by the US Congress that recognized Indian independence. Perhaps you should do your research better. Then again, I expect no less from an incensed, complexed, emotional indigenous South Asian like yourself.

  23. Is there any research comparing the happiness of women of married vs unmarried women?

    Trying to win an argument with a friend and all I find are junk Paul Dolan links.

    1. @Prats

      A small aside, this gentleman seems awfully like ur friend who u met in Chennai.


      ‘Speaking at the event, DMK MP A. Raja said “Viduthalai, Murasoli (DMK’s mouthpiece), Theekathir (Communist Party of India’s mouthpiece), and others should start asking – ‘Who is a Hindu?’. We should have the right to assert – ‘we don’t wish to be a Hindu, why are you keeping me as a Hindu?’.”

      “You’re a Shudra till you remain a Hindu. You’re a son of the prostitute till you remain a Shudra. You’re a Panchaman (Dalit) till you remain a Hindu. You’re an untouchable till you remain a Hindu. How many of you wish to stay as children of prostitutes? How many of you wish to remain untouchable? Only if we’re vocal about these questions, it will become elemental in breaking Santhana (Sanatana Dharma).”

      More Hindu-region i presume….

      1. this gentleman seems awfully like ur friend who u met in Chennai

        My friend is a pretty vocal Hindu.

        I think midwit Dravidian elite wants to create a separate identity from Hinduism while most Tamils don’t care about that rhetoric.

        1. I wouldn’t go far as to say ‘most Tamils don’t care about that rhetoric’, considering they have voted for the ideology since independence.

          1. it is nearly impossible to argue with the tamil middle castes. they have political power with the vague ‘dravidian’ ideology and will not let go. many of them are devote hindus, but for the sake of political power, this strange ideology stays.

          2. Devoutness is a meaningless measure.

            One can argue that Bangladeshi Hindus or Pakistani Hindus are more “devout” than Indian Hindus, since they are a minority and cling to their faith more. What matters is political power which we all know where it rests in less Hindu areas.

  24. Even the US Census Bureau specifically states that the term “Asian Indian” on the US census race classification form is “not a meaningful description of racial ancestral or ethnic heritage and does not have any biological or scientific meaning”.

    Not only that, but multiple research papers and studies conducted by the US Census Bureau and other organizations in the US including the FBI, have all come to the same conclusion: that “Asian Indian” is not a race or an ethnic group and that South Asians are free to self identify as the racial and ethnic group that best fits their ancestry and race. We all know that it was Gujaratis that sought to change the racial classification of South Asians from “White” which is what it used to be in 1970, to “Asian Indian“ in an attempt to get low interest SBA loans from the Reagan administration.

    Through their efforts and petitioning, after 10 Long years, they successfully managed to create a contrived race classification box on the US census for their own selfish needs in 1980, as is typical for the Gujarati mindset. They didn’t care a tiny bit for the interests of other South Asians, be they East Asian or SE Asian, or Dravidian, or even Aryan/Caucasian racially. Without this action, we would still be considered “White” by the US government.

    What’s even more curious is the fact that they refused to co-opt the already existing categories for race in the US census. They could’ve easily chosen to fit in as non-white Latinos/Hispanics. Because that is what they look like by and large, and all they have to do is adopt new names, something most already do by anglicizing it in subsequent generations. They already follow American culture or are supposed to and religion is a non-issue in the United States. After all, being Latino/Hispanic is about following a particular culture. And that culture is very mutable in the United States, so as long as you look like you can pass for Latino and you have a particular name that fits, shit you don’t even need a Latino name, then that’s what you are racially and scientifically.

    My theory is that they were ashamed to be put in the same category as Latinos, as perhaps they look down upon them because they tend to be of a different socioeconomic class typically. Perhaps they forgot about the fact that there are also white Latinos and Hispanics, both in their own subcontinent and in Latin America. So Kal Penn (he anglicized his name) AKA Kalpen Modi is just a non-white Latino by a different name. If he hadn’t sold himself as a stereotypical Indian by starring in movies where a south Indian surname is used to represent all South Asians I guarantee you no one would’ve ever thought he was Indian. I’m sure you (thewarlock) also look like a typical non-white Latino, likely an indigenous or mestizo Latino as that is what 90% of Gujaratis are. Harnizo is unlikely but still possible, like Priti Patel or Amisha Patel and Aditya Pancholi. And Castizo like Mahesh Bhatt is very unlikely unless you are a Gujarati Brahmin or other High Caste. No Criollos in Gujarat except Parsis like Rohinton Patel, DDS, and merchant Khatris, who are not native to Gujarat. Besides, if you were a Castizo or a Criolo you wouldn’t be so complexed about your identity, so I have my money on the fact that your mestizo; Harnizo would be very unlikely but still somewhat possible.

    BTW watch “Parag Khanna TED talk Asia”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=3715FIdHkJE

    ^^and watch his TED talk. He explains how Indian is a menangless term and how we are all different from each other and mixed with different things. No one thinks he looks Indian, even in India, forget about the US. He took a DNA test and was 83% West Eurasian or Caucasian. That makes him a castizo genetically and he looks like one too. In the US he fits in perfectly as a Castizo American who can even be white passing.

    Even Nikki Haley who is a Castizo, and Preet Bharara, who is also a Castizo are considered white in the US by other white people. Whereas Nirav Tolia is considered a non-white Hispanic/Latino who insists upon being “Indian” when in reality he’s no longer Indian as that is nothing but a nationality and the Indian government will not come and save his ass when he is moored on an island And will refuse to consider him an Indian. It’s pathetic that he sticks to that identity when in reality he is now just a non-white Indigenous/Hispanic American— that is the true biologic and legal and scientific reality of his identity and he better get used to it. It’s like a non-white indigenous American coming to the US from Mexico and having children in the USA and then telling his own children that they are not Indigenous/Hispanic American but Mexican American. Just complete nonsense.

    Even more absurd when you realize that the AASI range in South Asia is from 0% AASI to 85% AASI, not including NE and SE Asian admixture found in some groups, that also ranges from 0% E Asian to 99% E Asian. Jesus Christ, that’s like the difference between Han Chinese, Uyghurs, Uzbeks and Turkish people. Or like the difference between Kenyans, Somalians, Ethiopians, Eritreans, Suadanese, Moroccans and Egyptians. Might as well call all of Africa Black and all of Asia Han Chinese. And all of Latin America Indigenous American racially. Just insane logic to say South Asians are all the same. They never were and they never will be.

  25. LOL I already forgot my sign in details for the original account hahaha

    Anyways playing around with Vahaduo is fun.
    I can be modelled as 84.4 Bengali_Bangladesh, 10.4 Turkmen, and 5.2 Tibetan_Lhasa with a distance of 1.65%

  26. By Latin American race standards my parents are an interracial couple.

    But they from the same region and community in India.

    Should I start identifying as mixed (west Eurasian and East Eurasian) or this weird European racial caste classification when people ask me my background ?

    1. @Sumit

      It’s quite simple really, if you look Caucasian/Middle Eastern/White, you can and should identify as one. Because if you are a member of one race that happens to be Caucasian, then that is what you are biologically and legally, and that is what the world will perceive you as, and consider you to be. And your phenotype/your parents’ phenotypes will reflect this biological/social truth as well.

      On the other hand, if you look mixed and/or non-white, or non-Caucasian, then you should identify as a non-white Latino/Hispanic as that is what you would be considered as in the Americas and in Europe, being a mixed Eurasian.

      Now if you have admixture from an Onge-like source AKA Hoabinhians and Jarawa, like many South Indians and Adivasis, Tribals, and Bengalis/Bangladeshis, then you can still pass as a non-white Latino, but depending on how much Onge like admixture you have, and depending on how your appearance is impacted, people might mistake you for Black-admixed Latino and/or the stereotypical “Dravidian/Sri Lankan/Tamil” look that some idiots think represents all South Asians and that has become infamous as the “Indian” look the world over. Good luck in that case, because Northern and Northwestern Indians/South Asians and indeed even Gujaratis don’t have any admixture from Jarawa and Hoabinhians and Onge-like sources and will never look like those Tamils/Bengalis/Tribals that do and will never have that problem as a result.

      1. “ then you should identify as a non-white Latino/Hispanic ”

        Thanks. I am going to start identifying as Latino / Hispanic going forward. Or perhaps Latinx to be more politically correct.

        I don’t know genetics, so grateful that we have scientific race experts to help with this topic.

        Thanks again!

        1. @Sumit

          No worries my Latin brother. In South Asia, we are all Latinos, it’s just that some are White Latinos, some non-White Latinos, some Black Latinos, some Middle Eastern/Northern African Latinos and some East Asian Latinos. All depends on:

          1) The strain of AASI you are mixed with (SE Asian)
          2) How much AASI you are mixed with
          3) What else you are mixed with (SSA, NE/SE Asian)
          4) Whether you have additional Onge-like admixture
          5) How much Steppe/Iran admixture you have

          Here’s a 100% Gujarati couple that looks exactly like indigenous Americans/the Northern AASI strain:

          Keep in mind, as outlined above, there are a lot of different AASI strains, and all strains look different from each other within South Asia due to divergent evolution/climate etc.m, in addition to possessing extra ENA admixture from other sources, depending on the strain. I will post examples of other AASI strains and how their progeny turn out when mixing with West Eurasians/Caucasians, both SouthCentral Asians within South Asia, and MENA and European folks as well. Stay tuned.

      2. @Racelearner

        You are delusional. LOL. You can cherrypick as much as you want but Indians and Pakis don’t look Latino. Here in Canada, anybody can tell the difference between an Indian and some other brown guy hahaha it’s why Brampton is clowned so often. They know what international students and Doordash delivery dudes look like.

        Yeah bro Ro Khanna totally looks white bro not like a typical pajeet hahaha and he’s supposed to have less AASI cuz he’s a Punjabi Khatri.
        Same goes for the US where those NW indians are called Rajesh and Baljeet and stereotyped, why do Indians try so hard to be someone they’re not especially these Punjabi pajeets when everyone can identify them from a mile away hahahaha this guy actually thinks he’s white or some weird Caucasian thing lol just bring that up in real life and watch how hard you get laughed at.

        Even “Jatts” like Bindy Johal are easily identified as Indian I love how Indians in particular hate themselves so much that they try to LARP as other ethnicities lol you don’t see Sri Lankans, Bengalis or the Mauritians Guyanese Trinidadians or Fijans try this BS

  27. I was always intrigued by the fact that there are Khatris that look like Rahul Dev and Ranbir Kapoor/Raj Kapoor, while others look like Anindita Nayyar the Bollywood actress, like Ro Khanna the Congressman, and like Kunal Nayyar, the actor who plays Raj Koothrapalli on the Big Bang Theory.

    They obviously look like members of two entirely different racial groups; one looks fully White/Caucasian of the Mediterranean, Iranid/Irano-Afghan/East Med branch, while the other three look fully like Latin/Hispanic Americans, either indigenous, for Ro and Kunal and Castizo for Anindita. Yet both groups claim to be Khatris. How could this be?

    (Yes, if Anindita Nayyar and Ro Khanna and Kunal Nayyar went to Mexico/Latin America, people would speak to them in Spanish. Heck, even in North America, other Latinos would speak to them in Spanish/their mother tongue. They don’t even have to change their names, their phenotype/facial appearance/race is like that of Latin Americans. Changing their name would just confirm American suspicions that they are non-White Latinos/Hispanics. Khanna should join the Hispanic caucus, as that is his true community.)

    Why/how could this be? Is it a magic trick or some random artifact of genetic recombination that Khatris look so different from each other? Is Jyoti Chopra of MGM (who looks White) the same genetically as Priyanka Chopra of Nick Jonas fame (who looks indigenous Latino), and they just happened to turn out looking like different races? Is Neera Tanden the same as Jay Tandon in Los Angeles? Or are the ones that look indigenous/non-White like Priyanka Chopra and Neera and others doing something far more sinister/stupid?

    Well, the answer is just like I suspected for years/common sense: they are simply lying about their background/heritage. Who is lying? Well, my friends, it’s rather obvious isn’t it? Ro Khanna and Kunal Nayyar and Anindita Nayyar and Priyanka Chopra and others of their ilk are lying. And how do I know this to be true?

    Two reasons. Firstly, the latest PCA plots show that there are not just one group of Khatris, but rather two or even three groups of Khatris. The first group clusters with other South Central Asians like Jaats, Rors, Jats, Kambojas, Sindhi UCs, Kalash, Kho, Chitrali, Pathans, Pashtuns and Pakhtuns and Tajiks, as well as certain POK Gujjars. This is the Caucasian/West Eurasian/Aryan group that looks like Raj Kapoor and Jay Tandon. Their entire family passes as White/Caucasian because they all share the same genetic background/heritage. They are 85%+ Caucasian/West Eurasian.

    The second group of Khatris clusters near Gujarati Brahmins and the third group of Khatris clusters near Guptas and lower caste North Indians and East Indians. Corresponds perfectly to the phenotypes of Anindita Nayyar (Castizo like Gujarati Brahmins) and Kunal Nayyar and Ro Khanna (indigenous like Guptas and lower caste North Indians). What a beautiful coincidence! So what genetic analyses tell us is that Khatris are not a homogeneous group of people, with a range of AASI admixture from 12/13% to as much as 60-65% on the higher end. And this is reflected in their phenotypes. So the more mixed ones retain their Khatri identity (most likely they were never Khatris to begin with) despite being and looking nothing like Aryan/Caucasian Khatris.

    The second reason is again related to the above: The group of Khatris that doesn’t look Caucasian/ white/Middle Eastern also has parents and grandparents and indeed great grandparents/past ancestors that don’t look like Caucasians either. Whereas the group of Khatris that looks Caucasian has consistency throughout their family with every member looking white/Middle Eastern and/or Caucasian for generations. This tells us that race phenotype and DNA are all correlated directly.

    In South Asia, just like in other countries, your face/race is a reflection of your caste/tribe/DNA. Nothing is random or a mutation or unexplainable or inconsistent. Everything makes perfect sense. It’s just that some people lie and/or are ashamed about their heritage and background and make up contrived identities, while others stay true to their heritage and bloodline and look like what they say they are, something that genetic analysis and DNA studies back up completely. The same goes for other tribes and castes in south Asia such as the Pashtuns and the Jaats and the Kambojas, most of them are saying the truth about their identity and look like what they are, but a significant minority in each of these groups that happens to be larger in numbers within India, claims to be something that they are not, something that is easily verifiable from their appearance and indeed, from DNA studies. There are outlier Pashtuns and Jats scattered among lower caste north and east Indians on any PCA.

    This is the harsh reality of real life and of living in the west, you can no longer lie about being Brahmin or Khatri, or Jaat or Pashtun while being as mixed as a regular generic South Asian, and get away with it— You have to actually look like what you claim you are, which means you have to look white and/or Middle Eastern. Welcome to the brave New World, where water finds its own level — get used to it.

  28. “you can no longer lie about being Brahmin or Khatri, or Jaat or Pashtun while being as mixed as a regular generic South Asian, and get away with it”

    even the most brazen casteists I have met in my life would shy away from talking like this.

  29. For South Asians the choice is simply this:

    Northerners/Gujaratis- Tortilla vs Roti/Bhakri

    Southerners without Onge- Idli vs Arepa

    NWners/Aryans- Naan/Kulcha vs Pita/Lavash

    Easterners/Northeasterners- Chilli Paneer/Chicken vs Mapo Tofu/General Tso’s

    Southerners with Onge- String Hoppers vs Jollof Rice

    Make the choice Latino brotherhood. Now that we are bonafide Americans, we must assimilate and integrate as Americans as well. Pick a side. Pledge your allegiance. And live your life. As easy as pie. BTW, if it’s not obvious enough, the food choices are analogous to the racial groups you belong in for Americans.

    All of us have our equivalents in the Americas. We are global citizens in the true sense. No wonder on all PCAs Latin Americans cluster right next to us, from Paniya to Pashtuns. AASI diversified at the same time as SE and NE Asians and the natives of the Americas, so all of this makes sense and also explains why AASI looks identical to the natives of the Americas. In fact Native Americans were once in correctly classified as Australoid, just like certain ASI strains in India were.

    1. The thing is in America you have Black Lives Matter activists like Shaun King who are basically mostly white.

      There are even cases of fully white European Americans who passsed as black like Jessica Krug or Rachel Dolezal.

      So wouldn’t it be equally feasible for South Asians to identify in a manner similar to African Americans.

      What I mean is under a one drop rule for Brown, rather than African American (although I think that would be interesting as well ).

      Americans also have categories like “non-Hispanic white” because Hispanic whites aren’t really viewed as regular whites due to one drop rule.

      So South Asian “Hispanic whites” risk similar types of exclusion from “non-Hispanic whites”

      1. @Sumit
        Lots of Bullshit and wrong information in your comment.

        Shaun King is neither Black nor White — he is a non White Latino of the Black extraction. And Black people aren’t just West-East Eurasian mixed. They are West Eurasian-SSA mixed, and SSA has nothing to do with East Eurasians. In fact, East Eurasians are the farthest thing from SSA on planet Earth. Furthermore, the Black identity/identification in the US is based on looking visibly Black admixed, not the one drop rule, which by the way, only applied to African Americans in the Jim Crow era and holds no relevance today. In fact, studies have found that once people have less than 20% SSA they stop identifying as Black.

        If it still held relevance today, then all Arabs and Northern Africans would be considered Black, not to mention many Portuguese and Italians mixed with Black that live in Europe, and all Latin Americans, even those that are 90% European and look White would become Black as well. That is simply not the case anymore and even in the past, those that didn’t look Black passed as White. In addition, to show that the one drop rule only applied in the context of African Americans mixing with Europeans, Arabs and Northern Africans and Europeans and Latin and Hispanic Americans and Jews mixed with Black were always considered non Black and the one drop rule never applied to them at any time in history.

        Did you know that all Latinos that weren’t indigenous were considered White by the US starting from the 1890s up to 1970, when a small group of Latinos lobbied for a new Latin/Hispanic category to be created solely for cultural representation? Did you know that up until that point, ALL Mestizos/harnizos/Castizos/ and Criollos were considered simply White and didn’t have a separate box for themselves? In other words, when Arabs and Italians were struggling to be considered White, Latin/Hispanic and mixed Native Americans of all stripes and races and admixtures (except visibly Black admixed/appearance) were considered White in the US by the US government. As far as passing as a different race is concerned, people can pass as members of many different races by tanning their skin and getting perms and plastic surgery, it still doesn’t change their DNA, biological and legal race and that’s an entirely different topic that has no relevance here.

        Did you also know that people that speak Latin Languages like Spanish and Portuguese and Italian also mark “White Hispanic/Latino” despite being of full European descent because the term has no racial utility, simply a cultural affinity? And that it is simply an optional term/affiliation that you can choose not to identify with if not a part of that culture? Did you know that White Latinos/Hispanics are treated no differently from other Whites and have never been excluded or treated differently either? The category was never created because of a one drop rule. How do you get all of this wrong information? Don’t make up things when they are not true at all.

        There was never a one-drop rule for Latinos or East Eurasians in the United States — there is no such thing/concept/paradigm and there never was— and if such a rule had existed, then all Europeans would have been affected by it, as they share ancestry with Native Americans and because all West Eurasians have some East Eurasian admixture/ancestry, both ancient and modern, from ANE, Siberia, NE Asia, AASI (found in ancient European components) and modern ones. All Russians, Turks, Iranians, Azeris, Central Asians, Eastern and Northeastern Europeans, Central Europeans, and Latin Americans would have been affected by this imaginary rule that never existed and for good reason.

        The one drop rule only existed for blacks and even then was not applicable to those mixed with blacks outside of the Americas at any point in time. In fact, the existence of a one-Drop rule for East Eurasian admixture would be akin to a Nazi-like state when Hitler was in power and everyone except Sardinians would be considered non-White because all the other Europeans are relatively more mixed than Sardinians. Indeed all West Eurasians are mixed with East Eurasians to different degrees, it’s just that Sardinians are the least admixed of all along with certain groups like Assyrians. Even Hitler did not have a one drop rule for East Eurasian admixture, be it ASI/brown/Native American or south east Asian or north east Asian admixture. In fact, he even considered the Japanese to be Aryans. Even Hitler would not be considered white using the one drop rule.

        So no, South Asians would never identify in a matter similar to African-Americans, who themselves don’t all identify as African-American beyond a single threshold of sub-Saharan African admixture anyway. Besides there are 1 billion other reasons why the African-American example does not apply to Eurasians like us, some of which I have listed above.

        Like I outlined above, Hispanic whites are viewed as no different from other non-Hispanic whites when it comes to racial legal social and biological realities. This has always been the case. This was simply a cultural distinction that was lobbied for by Hispanics themselves because they didn’t like simply being considered white as they considered their culture to be distinctive from Anglo-Saxon culture and wanted recognition for it. This is something that is less important these days as America is increasingly a melting pot and people follow American culture and more and more Latinos are simply identifying as whites without checking the Hispanic box according to the US census. So South Asians that are White/Caucasian racially do not risk any type of exclusion from other people that also identify as white. These are the facts, take it or leave it.

  30. What’s fascinating is that researchers have found Onge-like/Jarawa-like/Hoabinhian like affinity in certain isolated groups of indigenous South Americans as well — this explains why certain indigenous South Americans can be as dark as Fitzpatrick 5 or even close to 6 on the pigmentation scale — and why they look identical to Tamil and Telugu Dalits/Lower Castes/Adivasis/Tribals in many cases. I’m sure the hotter climate also plays a role, particularly at that longitude/latitude. Random selection and sexual selection also play roles.

    Some even theorize that there was a land/sea-based migration of indigenous people from Southern South Asia to South America a long time ago. Perhaps why there are so many similarities between Indigenous Americans and even Tamils/Southern Indians/Sri Lankans, forget about Northern AASI strains, whom they are identical to in appearance and diet.

    Did you know that the traditional dress worn by Mexican indigenous people is derived from the Sari?!?! Yes, you read that right — a Tamil slave from India introduced the Sari to the natives of the Americas back in the 16th Century, and they immediately started adopting/wearing a slightly modified version of it—called the China Poblana—and it is directly derived from it. The similarities just keep getting larger and larger. Sari vs. China Poblana — make your choice Dravidians.

    I recently went to the museum for the American Indian at the national mall in DC and the tour guide there told me that many people who come to visit from the Indian subcontinent feel an intense emotional connection to the exhibits there and even start crying, saying that they feel a deep spiritual and racial connection to the natives of the Americas and that they look like Indians to them. Even the tour guide herself (who was of Native Indian descent) remarked that they looked like different Native American tribes/Natives of the Americas and mixed Natives, not to mention the fact that Native Americans were and are still called “Indians” and were officially classified as “Indian American” until 1980. Some Indian reservations and organizations still use that term, making the use of the term “Indian American” by South Asians utterly absurd and useless, and rendering the identification of South Asians as “Indian” even more laughable.

    Make the switch. Do the right thing. Join the international Latino brotherhood, from Chennai to Chandigarh to Chelyabinsk to Chula Vista. Everyone is LatinX. Just pick your specific flavor of LatinX. And live your life as an American of that group. Assimilate or be irrelevant. No one cares about South Asian worldviews and identification. Everyone thinks like Americans becaus they represent popular culture and worldviews.

    1. Aren’t AASI at lot darker than any Amerindian group?

      Like compare Irula tribal people to an uncontacted Amazon caste.

      And even upper caste Indian are often quite dark, that skin color has to come from somewhere.

      For eg. Look at Indian cricketer Hardik Pandya

  31. Vedanta and Foxconn formed a JV and announced that they’d invest $19.5Bn in Gujarat for a Semiconductor Plant. It’s interesting that neither of them have previous semiconductor manufacturing experience, though Foxconn does manufacture electronics. Both of them also have shady labor practices. It’s great that there is some initiative to bring this tech to India, but the pessimist in me is suspicious. Semiconductors are turning out to be the next gold rush. Lots of players but few winners. What do y’all think?

  32. Was watching Telegu movie Sita ramam last night. Is it just me or there is a glut of South Indian movies now with Pakistan, Indian army, nationalism etc as their themes?

    Is the South becoming more ‘Indian’ 🙂

    1. telugus were always like that. Which raises the question, why did not bjp get its first break in telugu lands.

      1. In 1984 elections, the BJP won only two seats nationwide. One was in Gujarat and the other was in then Andhrapradesh, now telanagana constituency of Haumakonda.

        So, in a way, they did get a start in AP. Why they didn’t expand is multiple factors, most important in my opinion are (a) allying with TDP (b) YS Rajashekhar Reddy who revived Congress fortunes from 2004 until they broke up the state.

      2. I am perhaps reading more into it.

        But i see all around the ‘march lands’ and the ‘peripheral people’ being more and more ingrained into mainstream now. Hispanics in USA, Sindhis in Pakistan etc.

      1. They will never cover it. The Canadian government loves to nurture khalistani terrorists. One of the major party leaders is a notorious terrorist sympathizer.

        The greatest terrorist attack in Canadian history was committed by Sikh extremists on an air India flight that mostly had Canadian Hindus in it. And that has mostly been brushed aside, so there’s a track record of the Canadian government encouraging Sikhs to attack Hindus.

        Heck under the guise of religious accommodation Sikh teens are allowed to carry daggers into schools and such. Imagine letting such people, who are the furthest thing from stoic, carry weapons everywhere.

        Canada is not a serious country.

      2. We need to put a wall around Brampton. Let the Punjabis and the Gujjus fight it out (although its gonna be pretty one sided). Don’t want a Gujju exodus towards the rest of GTA but gotta live with it.

        Canadian government has dropped the ball on immigration, they are importing too many Indians, and that too from a specific area. Almost 33% of immigrants are from India – mostly Punjab/Haryana – and all of them land in Greater Toronto Area. Brampton is rife with corruption, and an official hub of every type of fraud/scam known to man.

        1. Gujus have stupidly gone too far down ahimsa pacifism nonsense. They should go back to same ways of neighboring marathis and rajasthanis. These clowns knew they could get away with harassment of pacifists. Gujus must change. Being an easy target is idiotic. Doubt major change anytime soon. They are so far removed from any dominant culture that isn’t mercentile. Don’t hold your breath for even a 10% MQM.

          Gujus often will move wherever it is safe and prosperous. If that’s where you will, they will tend to move there.

          Anyway, I will keep encouraging people to stand up to these radicals. Hopefully, I am wrong and Gujus wakeup a bit.

        2. Knowing gujus, they will wait for other Hindu groups to engage in direct physical violence. You saw that with the Haryana guy Vishal Jood in Australia. The whole mindset has to change. At least in S Africa, the guju Indians picked up guns recently to counter the riots. But they are removed enough from the “bijness” only culture.

          1. Direct violence is not a game gujjus can win.

            But Kushal Mehra has a good podcast on Khaslistani politics in canada. And how they successfully game the election process in the election primaries to get their candidates selected in all the major parties.

            It is time for Hindu Canadians to do the same.

          2. But I also agree that some level of credible threat of violence is required to get respect as a dark skinned minority group in the west.

            I notice on google news there is no coverage of this by any major canadian outlet, only indian outlets.

            Anti-black, sikh, or muslim graffiti would be covered.

          3. It’s easy enough to say that Hindu Canadians need to be engaged in the political nitty gritty of Canadian primaries and that Hindu Canadians need to respond in-kind to violence at the street level.

            But one thing to keep in mind is that most adult Hindu Canadians tend to be in school or working.

          4. In Canada, Gujratis are docile and have no street cred. They are not big in arts, media or politics. Most of them aspire to become middle managers in some midsized Canadian company, crunching or analyzing numbers, satisfied with rat race mediocrity. The enterprising ones are also so conservative that they are dominated in business by even the Sikhs. Their kids become deracinated within the first generation, compared to second or third gen Sikh Punjabis who still yap about Jatt pride. The other two major Hindu groups in Canada are Bengalis and Tamils – both hate Gujratis. Hindus trying to politically mobilize in Canada is just a pipe dream. Not gonna happen.

          5. @Qureshi @thewarlock

            First gen Indians in the US are unfortunately into ‘rat race mediocrity’, In second gen everyone becomes a doctor which is a good thing. NI are not as retarded about Amreeka as Madraasis but Gujjus in the US stand out because a lot of them get into the US via visa fraud and end up working for drab restaurants/motel/uber/…

            In Pakistani mohallas in the US (NYC/Houston/Chicago), I see burqa, chappal, above ankle pyjama, goat-like beard, poverty, charity thrift stores, ten grocery shops and ten cheap restaurants right next to each other, reminds me of Barabanki/Lucknow-Sadar/Chandani-Chowk.

            Do Indians in Brampton also live like that? Indians (including Indian Muslims) in the US seem to be a much-much richer than Pakistanis.

          6. If the game in Amreeka-Kanedaa remains fair i.e. no discrimination or violence, then in the long term my money is on Baniyas. I have seen their families and work-ethic up close. I only hope they don’t become American and stay true to their values. They will run circles around Chini/Gora/Baman/Thakur/Punjabis/Madraasi/… everyone.

          7. Quite the opposite, the baniya culture is shown to be deficient when things are ‘fair’ & a social caste network does not provide any competitive advantage. It is risk averse and lacking imagination. North American culture is social, and its business culture is focused on customer service, innovation and risk taking is heavily rewarded and penny pinching is not fruitful. In Canada, it’s even more easier to start a small business than the US due to heavy government incentives on tax rates, healthcare and subsidies. (they cut you down to size if you start getting too big though). In this environment, risk takers are rewarded more, because the government got your back if you fail. Sikhs, Tamils, Chinese, Italians, Pakistanis, all have done well.

            //In Pakistani mohallas in the US (NYC/Houston/Chicago), I see burqa, chappal, above ankle pyjama, goat-like beard, poverty, charity thrift stores, ten grocery shops and ten cheap restaurants right next to each other, reminds me of Barabanki/Lucknow-Sadar/Chandani-Chowk.//

            Don’t know man, Pakistani Americans also seem to be quite rich with $90K median income which is quite high. Burqas are not common at all, and the only South Asian women I ever saw wearing Burqa were Gujrati Muslims.. Hijab on the other hand is quite common. You are right about cheap restuarants and grocery shops.. Not sure why that is in Chicago and NYC. GTA is much better on that account.

          8. In my experience in Toronto, I think South Indians and Gujaratis get along pretty well. Perhaps not for purposes of political mobilization, but at least as far as Hindu groups from India go they socialize with each other extensively. I think there’s some solidarity there.

          9. ‘Pakistani Americans also seem to be quite rich with $90K median income which is quite high.’

            I could be wrong. I am also comparing Indian neighborhoods in the Bay Area that I have lived in, with NYC/Chicago/Houston which is not fair.

            On Burqa: I have seen it too many times to count in many cities. Could have Afghans, idk?

            I think ease of getting GC means a lot more blue collar (less academically talented?) Pakistanis get into the US. Also Pakistani-IIT i.e., LUMS the biggest feeder to American universities unfortunately doesn’t teach engineering. NUST, COMSAT, and such are not at the tier of IITs. I have seen a few brilliant hardworking Pakistani Punjabi engineering guys from these places but the numbers are still low. I think Pakistani doctors have a better ratio because it is up to individual merit in USMLE STEP 1/2, unlike pedigree in engineering. I don’t know enough 1.5-2nd, 3rd gen Pakistanis.

            From what I understand, chutiya Indians are washing puke stains from carpets all over Brampton clubs pretending to be CC students, reasonably good ones are coming to US for MS, prachand chutiya ones are crossing the Mexico border. Most of Canada except BC and parts of Monreal is anyways ugly, depressingly cold and miserable. We have too many chutiya berojgaar guys in Punjab, welcome phenomenon. What proportion are from Haryana?

        3. Brampton is disgusting and dangerous.

          The Canadian visa office in Chandigarh should be abolished. Canada is already weak when it comes to fraud, but the Chandigarh visa office is the worst. That would solve half the issues.

          Unfortunately, the Khalistani vote bank is strong, GTA suburbs are key to federal politics, and many Khalistanis occupy the highest echelons of the Canadian political apparatus.

        4. @Quereishi Canada has been cracking down though. This year a huge number of student visas were rejected in India, with the majority of those being from Punjab. Canada Immigration is a huge industry in Punjab. You literally see IELTS coaching boards on almost every street.

          1. Guju business potential takes time to click. Same with politics. The US has seen a big rise in both only recently catching attention. Sikhs are just more established in Canada and have more numbers. Give it some time.
            As for street cred, Gujus have that really no where. Gangsterism is just not culturally valued at all. Cultural dissemination is also a fail. Blend and adapt or stay insular is mostly what Gujus do. They don’t repackage and really market their own culture. Punjabis are the kings of that from their food to making music. That along with a lot of military backgrounds, rustic rural roots, a ton of recent homeland violence in their history, and strong machismo culture makes them a lot more amenable to street gangs and obtaining street cred that way.

            Sikhism is also very very well branded. The irony of preaching egalitarianism yet rife with a ton of casteism (eg. Jatt chauvanism, did gurudwaras) and even sexism in many cases (eg. highest selective abortion rates) is just given a pass. Langars and charity work are extremely well publicized even with organizations like khalsa aid having a clearly very political element, though of course doing some good work. History of military service for the West in world wars helps a ton. Finally, domination of entire media scene in India from North to South (eg. Actress import) by some Punjabi Hindus and pedastalization of their relatively fairer skin and more caucasoid features among the 2/3 non dalit population, also adds to the mix. Basically, the baseline milleau for street cred and media domination already exists among Sikhs and Punjabis in general.

            They are also massive winners by coming to Canada early. The property value surges allow them to be a lot more entrepreneurial in business.
            One trend that is there is deracination among their educated classes that are becoming more white collar and heavy rise of wokeism. Birth rates are also falling a lot. Demographics do not favor the community. Immigration temporarily will solve that. But homeland politics shifting demographically will put some reverse pressure back on them. Also, illegal immigration and future immigration in general, when it ebbs and flows, will eventually favor places like gangetic plains, as the region, albeit slowly, improves. The friction that will be seen will be of a different sort. Haryana immigrants already are clashing with Punjab ones. Heck even Khalistani and non khalistani sword fights are already are showing up. Gang violence and drugs have risen and are tearing through community in such a way that even Punjabiyat idols like Moosewala are impacted. Sikh on Sikh violence is huge, look at Stockton shooting recently. So things are not so rosy on that front.

            I do see some glimmer of hope for Guju diaspora. Guys like Sumit and I aren’t uncommon anymore. We recognize our community issues and are changing to fill in the cultural gaps. It is only a glimmer because deracination tends to win out faster than staying culturally loyal and also filling in the gaps. But let’s see. Maybe things will surprise me. I won’t stop highlighting the issues. One advantage of deracination is the ability to use Western vehicles of institutions (aka formal legal, etc.) Rather than engage directly in mud fighting. This is already seen with how Gujus are highlighting the recent incident. International level wealth and family connection for large media houses is already there. So alternate vehicles of pressure exist outside of direct street confrontation. Of course, this is not enough. But the situation is not as dire as if Gujus were relatively poor like Punjabi mistreated dalits.

            Gujus need an organized response like Jews. It took a Holocaust to fully incentivize the latter to add martialness to mercantilism. Hopefully gujus need less. Fortunately for martial groups, learning mercantilism is both a lot easier and more incentivized in the more globalizing technocratic world.

            Final element is that in young generation that is educated. I see a lot less of this friction and BS. Yes political views can vary but people realize that there is a lot of life beyond this and that there is more in common between most people , regardless of race, than there is different. Interaction with other groups, something educated people tend to do more of by being in more cosmopolitan spaces on average, leads to a lot less reliance on these types of tribal identities. These clashes are more of a blue collar thing. And that blue collar nature of the community, chapter wise, though still fueled by immigration, is waning in the legacy population. Yes educated activists are much more dangerous so there is that side. But that is more of the fort oof many groups to counteract because that is more of brain game with media narratives, not an all out brawl.

        5. @Q
          Bania culture is not risk averse at all in business. A lot of family gamble everything to make it big. You have no idea what you are talking about. Networth is continuing surge and Baniya descendents are playing a big role in Silicon valley and a ton of startups.

          Making rip off hip hop music with crass Punjabi lyrics is not the epitome of creativity. Creativity wise, I don’t see a deficits outside of some narrow media views. Education values differ for sure. Ivy League enrollments are a testament to that as are National Merit Scholar lists. I see plenty of Gujarati and non Gujarati Banja risk taking from the hedgefund space to big tech. Small business ownership is massive among both groups. Look at who does some of the riskiest small businesses, including liquor store and pawn shop ownership in low income areas or motels in rural America. It is often Gujaratis. Selling drugs type risk isn’t something Gujaratis. But taking legal business risk is certainly very common.

          Canadian situation is not a fair comparison. If anything, Sikhs there have bania advantage of established wealth.

          Pak income is 2/3 of Indian income in America. They tend to also live in high expense places like Indian Americans. So purchasing power wise, their income is not extraordinarily above median American one but certainly better. Much better than UK counterparts.

          1. Few points:

            1) I think Pak Americans tend to prefer single income households with defined gender roles, even highly educated professional ones, compared to Indian American households. Also, Indian Americans are earning more because they concentrate in High COL states like NY and Cali, whereas significant number of Pak Americans live in low COL areas like Texas and Virginia. Indians are more likely to be in IT which pays higher as well. These three factors explains most of the household income disparity.

            2) When I talk about Brampton as a ghetto, it’s quite relative. If you haven’t visited Canada, you would think that it’s some crime infested inner city hood. In reality, Brampton town has a median household income of around $100,000.. which is higher than Toronto city. So it’s all relative. We are not talking about some slum here, the criticism is actually on the culture and attitudes.

            3) My post is not some Gujrati hate post, Gujratis must have been very successful in the US, I don’t know the social dynamics. However I am comparing groups in GTA that start off from the same place two three decades ago. Gujrati community in Canada is also quite old, and there has been a significant mass of Gujratis since the 90’s. All immigrant groups started off from the bottom inner city neighborhoods.. but then eventually expanded as the city expands. But few groups performed better than others, Gujarati are at the lower end of that spectrum. Go to outer burbs of GTA and you will find Srilankan Tamils, Sikh Punjabis, Pakistanis buying property, but rarely groups like Gujaratis or Bengalis. All my Gujarati friends who were in living in Scarborough 20 years ago are still living in run down Scarborough. None of my SikhPunjabi/Pakistani/Tamil friends are.

          2. “Gujrati community in Canada is also quite old, and there has been a significant mass of Gujratis since the 90’s”

            So this seemed wrong based on what I know. So I looked up the data nearly half all Gujarati speakers in Canada migrated there in the last 10 years.

            There is historical Census data on # of people who “know a language” in the country.

            Basically the size of the community almost doubled between 2011 and 2021 from 118k to 209k. Which is 4x what it was in the 1991.

            For comparison the Tamil community for comparison had 238k speakers in 2021 compared to 180k in 2011 which is a much more modest increase.

            source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Canada

          3. Sumit,

            The pattern is the same whether you look at Punjabis or Gujratis or Tamils over the long term.

            in 1991, there were 54,000 Gujaratis, 37,000 Tamils, 167,000 Punjabis.
            in 2001, there were 81,000 Gujaratis, 111,000 Tamils, 338,000 Punjabis.
            in 2011, 119,000 Gujaratis, 179,000 Tamils, 545,000 Punjabis.
            in 2021 209,000 Gujaratis, 238,000 Tamils, 942,000 Punjabis.

            Punjabis increased by 564%
            Gujratis increased by 387%
            Tamils increased by 643%

            I would also add something, the Tamil and Punjabi immigrant populations, especially from the 90’s is refugee population, so low quality.. but the Gujrati one is mostly immigrant via the tough Canadian immigration system. By all accounts, Gujratis should have dominated the other two economically at least, but this has not turned out like that.

          4. Qureshi

            Your analysis is misleading…

            1. The 80s and earlier group of Gujarati immigrants are disproportionately, East African and Ishmaeli Muslim they do quite well economically.

            See this list

            The current wave is directly out of India and much more recent.

            2. Punjabis have several times the population. The have a lot of recent migrants but also had an old base from the same group.

            3. Tamils immigration spiked in Sri Lankan civil war and is now mostly slow. 2nd gen has integrated well.

            Gujarati culture is relatively entrepreneurial but they don’t have super powers. I don’t see why anyone expects them to “dominate”.

            Also not sure how you can call any them an old community when half of them immigrated in the last 10 years.

        6. @Q

          Final disagreement is social element. Hell Gujus are so adaptable and social that they played a big role in the Trump and Biden campaigns. The entire younger generation is way less conservative. That comes with the deracination. Across Anerican high society, Gujus are popping up just fine. I don’t agree with your analysis.

          Main wins for Punjabi again is element of capitilizaing on the already dominant cultural space from India and settling in Canada with big land holdings early. This along with street reputation and very effective culture fidelity programs, Khalistani or not, with a less deracinated youth. This allows for very good sustained media coverage. Outside of that, I don’t see much difference, especially as you move through generations.

          Maybe America just does it better. But in the end, the American identity trumps all. And residual mercantilism seems a lot better than feudal chauvanism for modern economic spaces, especially in elite avenues. But that’s just my view.

      3. @Bhimrao

        Pak origin doctors are fine. They vary in quality like Indian ones. In general, Aga Khan grads have been great in my experience. The ones I met tend to be exclusively Mohajirs from well off families, many of whom grew up in places like the Gulf and returned to Pak for education.

        Bengalis and Tamils hate Gujaratis? Beyond minor usual ethnic desi friction, I have not seen that in America. Yeah some views on Modi might be diff on average. But with American politics, meritocratic culture, value for education and family, and avoidance of crime- all three are similar.

        Maybe Sri Lankan Tamils are an exception. They don’t view India favorably. Maybe that is what you are referring.

        I sometimes think you live in some parallel reality in GTA. I haven’t seen the majority of the stuff you have gone on about.

        1. “ Maybe Sri Lankan Tamils are an exception. They don’t view India favorably. “

          Let me assure u they are not the exception 😉

        2. Never heard about this Tamil & Bengali hate for Gujaratis in the GTA. I don’t think there’s some SL Tamil exception.

    1. Lol at penny pinching. Yeah maybe with blowing money on driving super cars. But a huge part of bania culture is setting a side large portion of income for business reinforcement. You seem to go of Pak caricature of “evil Hindu Baniya,” not the least bit surprising. Keep it up. Enough will laugh all the way to the bank.

      Banias also are dominant in Indian startup scene. But to you that will all be entirely conspiratorial nepotism. So I won’t go into that. If you dug a little, youd be surprised of the humble origins of some in cities on diff corners of India.

      1. Gujaratis on the whole are ideal immigrants. Hard working and entrepreneurial. Nice culture too, even if it’s not as well publicized or known.

        Not a fan of the Modi sycophancy among many Gujaratis who I’ve met, though I suspect if another ethnicity’s person was PM and they had resounding democratic wins then they may act that way too.

  33. Re: The monologue on Unsupervised Libsyn- 15% is more like the North Indian average than the pan Indian subcontinent average.

  34. @sumit

    What is interesting is that this type of same strategic brigading is present online too. No group has this level of organization. They make Bania/Brahmin/rajput caste networks of India look like nothing.

    “The Sikhs have strong internal unity based on the caste (vast majority are Jatt Sikhs).”

    The Sikhs are known to have a tight community structure, which places them at an advantage in such a system, say observers.

    “To succeed in the nomination system you need to have very strong grassroots networks from which to sign up members and then deliver at the nomination selection meeting,” Jaskaran Sandhu, senior consultant at political consultancy, Crestview Strategy told ThePrint.

    “These networks are very sophisticated and layered, and have been organically developed and refined in the Sikh community over decades in a way few others can easily mimic.”

    This particular nomination system has also allowed a minority within a minority — the Khalistan supporters — to gain a voice in Canadian politics.

    “The reason why the Sikh community in Canada is politically successful is that it is well organised. Through the gurdwaras, they organise community events, non-profits, fundraising for charities, food banks… It’s a very community-oriented community,” said Anita Singh, a PhD from Dalhousie University, Canada, and an expert on the country’s diaspora politics, told ThePrint.

    “There’s also financial means within the community to spend on political campaigns,” she added.

    At the grassroots level, substantial politicking among Sikhs begins at board elections for gurdwaras. Eventually, a group of 10 to 20 men gain control of a gurdwara, and can use it to raise campaign money and influence about 40 to 50 extended families.

    “From a young age, Sikhs are encouraged to volunteer in campaigns and learn not only how to fight elections but how government works in general,” said Sandhu.

    “Sikhs take community building, democratic engagement, and grassroots empowerment seriously. It is built into our very ethos,” he added. ‘

    1. warlock
      What is interesting is that this type of same strategic brigading is present online too. No group has this level of organization. They make Bania/Brahmin/rajput caste networks of India look like nothing.

      I would say the Terrorist LTTE supporting Sri Lankan Tamils organizations in the West are equal or better. Heck, they have the clout to get US Congress, Canada parliament, UK MP’s to make statements to create a separate state in Sri Lanka.
      It does help that would be in the interests of the west too, to have a client state, with 55million strong people of similar origin in nearby India. That population has never been comfortable with greater India or Hindi supremacy either. So the wests client state in SL can be used to destabilize India.

      No different from the Terrorist LTTE supporting Sri Lankan Tamil diaspora in the west. Toronto and London seem to be the epicenter, with significant presence in France

      1. @sbarrkum
        You’d be surprised at the level of indifference to the affairs of SL Tamils that exists in TN itself, let alone other parts of south India. You’d practically have to remind people that they exist, and those that do know a bit would think that all SL Tamils are estate worker diaspora, and hence less legitimate as stakeholders in island politics.
        I’ve known some SL Tamil “activists” over the years. They are quite reserved in their proselytizing because they are thoroughly convinced of its truth and have little room for reconciliation. Its tragic because getting crushed was the only way to put them down. Very calculating people and this was reflected in the way they fought a secretive, regimented and vengeful war. Khalistanis couldn’t be more different despite the military pedigree of so many sikh families. With a big demographic majority of a border state, and an even bigger majority of land ownership, and yet they couldn’t raise units to fight a civil war. Weapons supply through the back door from pakistan but we only saw sloppiness and mawkish punjabi theatre all around.

        1. ” but we only saw sloppiness and mawkish punjabi theatre all around.”

          Apart from a rather large lunatic fringe, I do not think the Sikhs really wanted to secede from India in the 1980s. Sikhs were and are extremely well integrated into the Indian deep state (army, police, intelligence services). The most capable and intelligent Sikhs (KPS Gill, Manmohan Singh, General Brar etc) worked for India rather than against India to fight for Khalistan. I do not know of any Khalistani who is not an incompetent buffoon.

          Generally Sikhs have had it great in India. They have been one of the biggest beneficiaries of the economic opportunities India presented since independence until the 1980s.

          However times have changed. Since the 1980s the community is facing (relative) decline with the lunatic fringe increasing and saner heads almost gone. Punjab hasn’t been able to reap much benefits of post-liberalization India despite its proximity to the growth center of NCR. Unlike South Indians Sikhs were not able to make a jump from intensive agriculture to industry. They seem to be in too much love with a strange romantic notion of agriculture.

        2. girmit,
          Thank you for an insightful comments

          I’ve known some SL Tamil “activists” over the years. They are quite reserved in their proselytizing because they are thoroughly convinced of its truth and have little room for reconciliation.

          I think the flip side is true too. The Sinhalese too have the red line or “god” given truth that the island is indivisible. i.e. no separatism in any form.

          Semi Related. I assume you seen my comments on the egalitarianism of the Sinhalese. I have a cynical opinion of why. One believes if the neighbor becomes much richer/powerful they will use that to prevent ones own path to power/riches. So pull them down if they become too big and distribute. You could call it socialism.

          This is in contrast to the “American Dream”. Most buy into it, and think they too can become multi millionaires. So they dont care about the neighbors becoming rich and powerful. Capitalist may be.

          A joke about Sri Lankans/Sinhalese
          There was a visit to Hell. The Devil took the visitors on a tour Many pits, one for each country. Each pit had a couple of devils with pitchforks to push back those trying to climb out. There was one that did not have devils guarding. Asked the Devil answered, “thats Sri lankans, if one tries to climb out others pull him back in”

      2. “west wants a client state/5th column in strategic areas” explains everything and then an ngo / activist/ newspaper complex/ universities etc grows around that.

  35. The recent fracas on Twitter over India passing the UK in nominal GDP numbers has had one unintended consequence. The latest data for various regions has been retrieved from official documents.

    GDP per capita (2022 – 23) in USD
    Telangana – 3987
    Gujarat – 3798
    Tamilnadu – 3767
    Maharashtra – 3457
    Karnataka – 3356
    Kerala – 3548
    Andhra – 3155

    This South and West contiguous zone is the most important landmass in the South Asia. Consisting of 500 million people, they will be the economic engine.

    We have Delhi at 6688 USD in the North. That is also an important engine.

    1. Could you please also post the link to this data?

      Granted by the time this post gets approved you may need to provide the link for next year’s.

      1. @Hoju

        Lol….yes! I wanted to put the source in the original post. It kept bouncing.

        Source is from the Compendium of State Budgets FY22-23.

  36. I see that our More-Hindu-Bimaru-Warlord has scored some imaginary kills by posting some details about A Raja……

    Some specific details – A Raja has been thoroughly sidelined by the current DMK administration. He has a thoroughly documented ambition of vying with Stalin for the party leadership.

    During the 2021 polls, he was gagged by Stalin from making any public comments. After the win he has been sidelined from the Ministries – he holds no power at all.

    He has made all sorts of comments ( separate nation etc.) since then. This is the “loose cannon” disease that afflicts all jilted political leaders – from Shourie to Azad to Nitish.

    1. Are you seriously going to pretend that this turd is an “extremist”? DMK’s ideology is Anti-Hinduism, he is the norm. For that matter, all Leftists in India more or less think like him. Leftists always ALWAYS reduce Hinduism down to Caste&Superstition and then continue to shit on this straw-man version of Hinduism.

  37. I find it funny to see people here obsessing over “street cred”. Blacks in the US have lots of “street cred”. That didn’t get them anywhere. The fact that their criminals get social protection in the media is not of their own making, but simply the result of bored rich white liberals seeking to defend the indefensible (like the new gender trends). In terms of social outcomes, their community is still in the dumps.

    As for Quereshi’s bait comments where he tries to attack gujjus as opposed to the supposedly more impressive punjabis, we should consider that Pakistan’s endless economic failures make any comparison with India uncomfortable for him, so it is natural that he prefers limiting the comparison to a tiny subsample of people abroad.

    The true measure of a people isn’t their diaspora, which is usually small and self-selected. It’s their homelands. By that standard, the average Indian gujju blows the average pak punjabi completely out of the water. It’s not even close.

    On India’s GDP: it makes more sense to look at India as a disaggregated union of states like the EU than comparing it with unitary nations like China. We should look at Indian states separately. We wouldn’t compare e.g. Germany and Bulgaria in Europe so why should we do the same for states in India?

    Bihar may be at sub-Saharan levels of poverty but the Western/Southern coastal belt states are doing quite well, comparatively speaking. They are now about as rich as North Africa and beginning to reach the lower-end of Latin America states.

    The point about HDI that was made earlier in the thread is important. India’s education & health metrics are pretty subpar. The single-minded obsession with GDP is wrong-headed. More focus should be shifted to educational and health outcomes.

    The issue here is that education and health are primarily areas which states are responsible for. So it makes little sense to blame the center for what is apparently a widely distributed failing across both INC and BJP. I don’t count AAP since New Delhi is flush with cash, which makes their job all that easier.

    Gautam Adani is now the 2nd richest person in the world. It speaks to an insane wealth concentration even greater than in the US. How sustainable is that?

    Speaking of gujjus, they seemingly can’t stop winning.


    But yeah, buying property in the outer burbs of Toronto is the true measure of communal success for delusional diasporaoids, lmao.

    1. @principa

      Pakistan’s economic problems can be squarely blamed on Punjabis. Since they have took the reigns of the country, the country has gone steadily downhill. However this has more to do with the inheritance of the British empire than anything else. Punjabis dominated the British Indian military under the Raj, and Pakistan got the fat share of that, more than the country could handleresulting in the all powerful military establishment.

      There is no Gujju hate here, just telling you how it is. The true test of a cultural strength is when it is uprooted from the homeland and alienated from all the social advantages it has. Gujjus unfortunately are no Jews even if other Indians chalk them up to be. Not saying that they are failures, on the contrary they do decently. However nothing spectacular that everyone else needs to look upto. Like what is there to lookup to?

      Warlock mocks spending money on supercars.. if accumulating numbers on a screen is the Gujju way, sounds boring and uninspiring.

    2. @principa

      Pakistan’s economic problems can be squarely blamed on Punjabis. Since they have took the reigns of the country, the country has gone steadily downhill. However this has more to do with the inheritance of the British empire than anything else. Punjabis dominated the British Indian military under the Raj, and Pakistan got the fat share of that, more than the country could handleresulting in the all powerful military establishment.

      There is no Gujju hate here, just telling you how it is. The true test of a cultural strength is when it is uprooted from the homeland and alienated from all the social advantages it has. Gujjus unfortunately are no Jews even if other Indians chalk them up to be. Not saying that they are failures, on the contrary they do decently. However nothing spectacular that everyone else needs to look upto. Like what is there to lookup to?

      Warlock mocks spending money on supercars.. if accumulating numbers on a screen is the Gujju way, sounds boring and uninspiring. Give me fast cars, superbikes, expensive watches and beautiful women over a couple of extra digits on the computer screen and a skinny fat body.

      1. Skinny fat body is a desi thing in general. Most people of all groups are eithe obese or skinny fat. Maybe 20% in one group isn,’t and it is 10% in another. And most of these guys with less money and a range rover are fat or skinny fat. And trust me, Gujus like nice watches . And plenty have Mercedes, bmws, Lexus, teslas, etc. Buying hummers, range rovers, and escalades while appropriating the African American experience is just less common among Gujus.
        You fall into the same trap of thinking the streotype is the reality. There are a lot more skinny fat and obese Punjabis blowing money trying to act “cool” or “hard” than a bunch of Hrithik Roshans walking around. But ok.

        And Gujus have literally displaced Jews in the diamond market in Belgium. Gujus aren’t jews, for sure. But to say they aren’t economically exceptional among desis is just being blind.

        Lol at beautiful women. Yeah I see so many of the guys who scream “Jatt” all day long with all the ladies. I saw them go to the same clubs in groups. Drink too much whiskey. Like all groups, the good looking ones did fine and the others just struck out or got intermittently lucky. Then everyone goes to the same hookah bar and late night take out and goes home in an uber or drunk drives the range rover back home while blasting 3 peg at 4am.

        I’ll use your same logic. To think Punjabis are some sort of Baller Lotharios is idiotic. They are just a desi group with a lot of cultural soft power from clever modification of music with EDM and hip hop beats and a more “live it up” attitude coupled with more of the anti social gang stuff, on average, compared to other S Asians groups. Half of their worship in desi circles comes from people’s moronic love for lighter on average skin and more cacuasoid featured people. And no not everyone by any means at all looks like the “ideal.” But portraying these exceptions as the norm is plenty classic.

        Yes the folksy “can do attitude,” lack of disdain for blue collar work, strong work ethic, loyal behavior, charity through religion, and reverence for physical/mental strength is admirable and all features of old school Punjabi cultural norms. There is a lot for other groups to learn. But the appropriation of anti social gang culture is moronic. One can be tough but not criminal behaving/romanticizing.

        Anyway, these differences are dying with every generation. Some take longer but they die down. American culture wins in the end. Learn the good, avoid the bad.

        1. @warlock
          To digress a bit, boorish and rowdy don’t make for great gangsters. Like a sinewy gurkha makes a great infantryman, a taciturn chartered account or hotelier from Udupi makes a good mafioso.

        2. Not to mention how dumb they are. Literally never met any group as retarded as GTA Jatts.

          Many of the ones my age still live with their parents and grandparents in multigenerational homes bought in the 80s. For spending money they sell weed and coke using their mom’s minivan.

  38. Parmvir Singh: Say His Name

    Every day seems to bring another crime video. This one is especially grim. The store clerk gave the thug everything he demanded, and posed no threat at all to him. The thug shot him simply because he, the thug, is an animal.


    I haven’t been able to get this awful video out of my head; c-store/gas represent 15% of robberies and 5% of violent crime in the US, victims overwhelmingly Indian (62%)

    This one was in MS a few days ago

      1. Yes, bring these knee grows, and for three centuries beat them, treat them like animals, breed them to get light skinned house slaves, or big field hands, break up family and create a dysfunctional families. No question it is totally their fault.
        The US has 698 prisoners per 100,000 (the highest in the world) of which close to 50% are black AfricanAmericans
        If my father and mother had been in the US, they would have be in the back of the bus till 1960. Who knows what kind of living I would have had.
        The average Sri Lankan hated the colonials and their minions.
        What makes you think the long time residents black or white are going to welcome new immigrants with open arms. Specially if the new immigrants are more well off. As economy deteriorates and inequality increases, expect more of this kind violence.

        1. Many won’t be welcoming. But Rule of Law is important. Injustices happened and and effects are still there today. But not appropriately prosecuting crime is a failed approach. I guarantee people of all groups believe this guy should get the needle.

          1. But Rule of Law is important. Injustices happened and and effects are still there today.

            The draconian rule of Law will not fix the underlying causes of societal violence. It just reinforces the belief of inequality of justice and increases the divide of us vs them. The highest incarceration rate at “for profit” prisons hs not made a dent in crime and violence.

            To quote from Roy’s article
            “As the police officer talked to me, furious people from the neighborhood stood on the other side of the police tape and yelled things like, “Fuck you! Get the fuck out, this is our neighborhood!””

            The US has always been the most violent society in the developed world and it is becoming more violent by the day. It seems to be heading to a Brazil, the well off in guarded gated communities.


        2. Nah you can’t blame everything on slavery or past discrimination. American slavery was neither unique nor the most brutal. Many peoples throughout history have suffered far far worse than whatever American blacks imagine that their ancestors suffered. And the people most suffering from a subset of their population behaving like total animals(men aged 12-30) are they themselves. Not killing, robbing and raping or not particularly hard tasks and are not conditioned upon your grandfather being able to attend Harvard University and being a millionaire.

  39. With a tendency to proclaim excellence rather than pursue it, the peddling of American exceptionalism encourages Americans to maintain a robust sense of national achievement – despite mounting evidence to the contrary.

    In its global rankings, the United Nations Office of Sustainable Development dropped the U.S. to 41st worldwide (score 74.55), down from its previous ranking of 32nd. The U.S. ranks between Cuba and Bulgaria. (Sri Lanka ranks 76, score 70.03)

    The U.S. is also now considered a “flawed democracy,” according to The Economist’s democracy index.

    The Office of Sustainable Development’s rankings differ from more traditional development measures in that they are more focused on the experiences of ordinary people, including their ability to enjoy clean air and water, than the creation of wealth.

    So while the gigantic size of the American economy counts in its scoring, so too does unequal access to the wealth it produces.

    The Economist’s democracy index now groups the U.S. among “flawed democracies,” with an overall score that ranks between Estonia and Chile. It falls short of being a top-rated “full democracy” in large part because of a fractured political culture. This growing divide is most apparent in the divergent paths between “red” and “blue” states.


    1. other day i was trying to listen to a podcast that featured professor varshney, he began with “the science of democracy tells us”, I couldnt listen to it anymore.
      There is no science of politics, except perhaps machiavellianism, which is logical. Thats about it. all this democracy ranking business etc is bs. Earlier, democracy meant voting of people. now they have changed it to mean about minorities ,etc and hence now say that us was not a democracy in 1940’s etc. I mean, the guys essenitally refuse to distinguish between liberal democracy vs democracy. Its a word game .

  40. https://scroll.in/article/1032823/opinion-with-the-queens-death-the-system-of-looting-and-genocide-she-represented-should-end-too

    “ On British television, the noted anti-colonial intellectual Shashi Tharoor reminded the whitewashers of Empire how they never taught colonial history to their own people, noting its particular absence from the A-Level history curriculum.

    The response in Pakistan remained largely meek. It was depressing to see many of Pakistan’s elite, the enduring ‘brown sahibs’, actually pretend to mourn the queen whose forbears ensured that Pakistan and India would remain at daggers drawn for the foreseeable future. The worst were graduates of Oxford and Cambridge, who posted notes of condolence to the monarch as if the monarchy would check to see if they were appropriately servile and obsequious.“

  41. This question is for everyone:

    Does anyone else think that Ron DeSantis and his Lt. Governor look like Central South Asians? As in, when you see him on TV, do you feel like he is one of your “people” and that you are the same ethnic group as him? Because there are Jaats and Khatris and Kambojas and Pashtuns that look like both of them. And I certainly do feel a connection to both of them, I think they are both of my ethnic group/as “White” as me —in fact I’ve seen a doppelgänger of DeSantis with dirty blonde hair and beige skin in Gurgaon before.

    If you see him and feel no such connection, you’re obviously very different from South Central Asians living in India and Pakistan/Afghanistan. You lack the instinct to recognize him because you are likely a different race from NW South Asians like Rahul Dev.

    And you guys probably know who Karl Rock is. Well if you look up the video where he introduces his parents, he shows his dad. To me, his dad looks like a Jaat/Ror. In fact, I’ve seen similar phenotypes in Haryana as well.

    If you guys feel similarly, I’d love to hear it, because I have a feeling that most South Asians feel very differently and will take these men as White men that don’t pass in South Asia/they feel no connection to. All the other South Asians I know feel more connected to people like Kamala Harris and George Lopez, which is understandable for different reasons.

    1. That is some serious cringe, even by BP’s standards(i rarely ever comment on BP cuz i dont know much, but cudnt resist this time). You should’ve been here when Apthk used to be around, you two wudve complemented each other very well. And a usrname like “racelearner” in the 2022? lmao

    2. Oh i’m sry, i just perused this whole thread, and going by the “latino” “castizo” references and from what i remember, that is def Apthk, welcome back! (grabbing my popcorn for ur forthcoming insightful comments on how u people are so diff from us)

      1. @Dheeraj

        hahaha even you realize how deluded this Racelearner bud bud ding ding Doordash driver is

        This clown really thinks Karl Rock who has a Germanic/Nordic look passes in Punjab or something HAHAHAHA holy crap is this guy an elaborate troll?

    3. Here’s a Kalash man from NW South Asia that looks like Ron DeSantis’ biological brother, almost a doppelgänger; and definitely the same racial/ethnic group as Ron: https://ibb.co/fq1Tg0m

      There are people in NW South Asia, among Jaats/Khatris/Jats and others etc. that look exactly like him.

      Since Rors/Jaats/Jats/Khatris/Pashtuns and Kambojas cluster with the Kalash and Kho/Chitrali people on PCAs, have similar AASI levels, share Oracles, and have more Steppe than the Kalash in many cases, it is no surprise that these faces are often found among SouthCentral Asians in NW India and Pakistan/Afghanistan.

      Only admixed South Asians would have trouble recognizing these faces as their own. NW South Asian UCs and tribes/biradris would count Ron DeSantis and Karl Rocks’ father as a part of their own ethnic group. After all, these NW South Asians are essentially like Pamiri Tajiks with minor additional AASI. This is a good test to see just how different the average South Asian is from these NW tribes/Biradris with Central Asian origins.

  42. Bunch of triggered responses from South Asian trolls as usual. Karl Rock doesn’t look South Central Asian, but his dad totally does. Read carefully. BTW, even though IMO Karl Rock can never pass as South Central Asian, he certainly can pass as a Pamiri Tajik. And some of them live on the Tajikistan/Afghanistan/Pakistan border.

    And that Sikh Jatt you posted fits perfectly as a non White Latin American Indio mestizo from Mexico. He likely clusters with Punjabi Chamars and looks the part as well. Definitely not in the South Central Asian cluster with Jaats and Khatris and Pashtuns. There are outlier Jatt Sikh samples that cluster with Biharis Brahmins and others. No surprises here.

    He is LARPing as a Jatt Sikh and failing as usual, kind of like how someone with the last name Hernandez can be both White Latino and non White Latino. Not so hard to understand. This has already been explained above. I’m sure you look like some variety of non-White Latino as well.

    1. >Bunch of triggered responses from South Asian trolls as usual

      @Apthk/racelearner if that was an attack at me, then i’d like to inform u that I recently had an epiphany as per which I actually am a Non-West Eurasian-looking South Asian, so i’d really appreciate if you could decribe me as such(after all, i’d least expect u of all people to lack such nuance in phenotypic classification;) )

      Anyway, since we’re at it: What would I pass as in the US/Canada? A castizo, right?
      Some background: Father is a Punjabi brahmin, mother is a gujju OBC(i’m told we’ve some Kashmiri ancestry from my paternal grandma’s side, but not sure tbh)

      https://ibb.co/mGVMCBL (sry for the abysmal picture quality)

  43. Ron DeSantis and his Lt Gov are sending boatloads of illegal Latin immigrants to Martha’s Vineyard and yet they all look like generic North and East South Asian lower castes, Bihari/Bengali/UP/Gujarati and Punjabi Chamars and Churas, even like many South Indian middle and lower castes:


    They literally look like the people you see on the streets of South Asia. South Asians are living in the US with two identities, and it’s redundant. You will be considered non-White Latino anyways and it’s not long before people realize that non White “Pajeets” are really non White “Julios” with Turbans, especially once the Turban comes off and names are anglicized. Join the Latin brotherhood already.

    OTOH, the White Latinos/White South Central Asians like Rahul Dev are the same race as Ron DeSantis and his Lt. Governor. Even Nikki Haley, a Castizo, is passing as White. Tragic all around for generic South Asians who refuse to accept their new identities. Don’t be like Sanjay Gupta. Adopt your new homeland and become Jose Martinez instead. Comes with many benefits too. You can even identify as White like George Zimmerman if you wish.

    1. Here’s a Kalash man from NW South Asia that looks like Ron DeSantis’ biological brother, almost a doppelgänger; and definitely the same racial/ethnic group as Ron: https://ibb.co/fq1Tg0m

      There are people in NW South Asia, among Jaats/Khatris/Jats and others etc. that look exactly like him.

      Since Rors/Jaats/Jats/Khatris/Pashtuns and Kambojas cluster with the Kalash and Kho/Chitrali people on PCAs, have similar AASI levels, share Oracles, and have more Steppe than the Kalash in many cases, it is no surprise that these faces are often found among SouthCentral Asians in NW India and Pakistan/Afghanistan.

      Only admixed South Asians would have trouble recognizing these faces as their own. NW South Asian UCs and tribes/biradris would count Ron DeSantis and Karl Rocks’ father as a part of their own ethnic group. After all, these NW South Asians are essentially like Pamiri Tajiks with minor additional AASI. This is a good test to see just how different the average South Asian is from these NW tribes/Biradris with Central Asian origins.

  44. This Latino (non White Indio Mestizo) from Colombia, who has no South Asian ancestors in his family tree looks entirely like a Punjabi Chura and those Churas that LARP as Jatt and cluster with lower castes:


    Even his girlfriend, who is a indigenous Gujarati Chamar, looks fully non White Latino, and she refused to believe that he was a Latino when she first saw him and vice versa.

    In fact, South Asian people regularly mistake him for South Asian while Latinos think he’s Latin. His face is literally the clone of hundreds of millions of generic NW and Northern, Western lower castes in South Asia, and his ethnic group/appearance predominates in that region among indigenous people/lower castes.

    This is not a coincidence. He likely clusters with chamars as well, since Mexicans and other Latin Americans cluster right next to South and South Central Asians of different castes and with Iranians, all the way to Turks/Italians/Greeks. Genotype = Phenotype. You can’t swindle your way out of this one.

    1. “Genotype = Phenotype.”
      A lot of South Asians overlap with black ppl in the USA phenotypically aside from the hair texture but are genetically more related to Latinos (East + West Eurasian).

      Lets take for eg. Indian tech tycoon Shiv Nader as an example.

      He looks like Uncle Phil from fresh prince. But genetically he has no african ancestry.

      Should his company HCL be classified as a Black owned business (phenotype) or as a Latino owned business (genetics)?

  45. Watching the pictures from Angraijan’s funeral reminds me how shallow all these rich gora people are. How do they have the time to do their emo makeup, nice hats, black dresses, matching shoes,… when they are mourning? Do they go funeral shopping?

  46. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.scroll.in/article/1031851/after-a-church-attack-sikh-residents-of-this-punjab-village-want-vandals-punished

    “On August 29, there were at least two incidents of violence and intimidation reported in Punjab. In Amritsar district, Nihangs, blue-clad members of a Sikh order of warriors, disrupted a Christian prayer meeting, alleging forced conversion. The Akal Takht – the highest centre of authority in Sikhism – later demanded that the first information report on the incident be withdrawn and the arrested Nihangs be released. In Ludhiana, a pastor was forced to bow to a Hindu idol.

    In Patiala on the same day, the neighbours of a pastor complained to the police about him – meetings organised at his home were disturbing the peace, they claimed

    Earlier, on July 19, a pastor in Ludhiana was attacked in his car. The FIR registered at a local police station booked the accused for attempt to murder and rioting while armed with deadly weapon.

    The pastor in Ludhiana was taken to a hospital after he fell unconscious. He was attacked when he was on his way back from a prayer meeting. (Photo: Special arrangement)
    In many states, such as Madhya Pradesh and Uttar Pradesh, stringent anti-conversion laws have been used to target Christian communities. Punjab does not have such a law, although there is growing pressure from sections of the Sikh clergy and from Hindutva groups for one.

    On August 30, Giani Harpreet Singh, the jathedar, or head, of the Akal Takht had alleged forced conversions in Punjab on a Facebook Live session. “So-called Christian missionaries have been forcibly converting Sikhs by adopting miracle cures and fraudulent practices,” he claimed.

    He told The Indian Express that Sikhs had been filing police complaints for the last six months against alleged forced conversions. “It is time to demand an anti-conversion law in the state,” he said.

    A village united
    Tarn Taran district is no stranger to violence against Christians. In 2020, a pastor and his family were reportedly attacked with swords here. But in Takkarpura village, many are pushing back against anti-Christian rhetoric”

    1. The radical left, now more mainstream, has a deep and paradoxical relationship with radical islam and more importantly its “wolves in sheep’s clothing” fake “moderate” sympathizers. And the new ultra woke tik tok generation of diaspora desis is extremely ill prepared. the uncle boomers class is technologically behind and completely outclassed by woke propaganda. There are genuine wokes allied with the brainwashed young Khalistani generation aka the Jagmeet singh class, islamist sympathizing youth aka the Ilhan Omar class, and the polytheistic hating young missionary generation aka the Trushke class. They are all flanked by the Lutyen’ leftist post modern marxists aka Arundhati Roy and Romila Thapar class. Rana Ayub is a combo cherry on top. Diaspora Hindus are screwed, unless they wake up. Hopefully new more virat immigrants from the homeland help give them a wakeup call.

      The thing is that most young people of all religions and backgrounds have a mostly uninterested view. But the activist class of many groups has a deeply anti Hindu and break India spirit. The Pak deep state is also quite supportive, and PRC has a vested interest as well. The whole eco system is actually quite well done.

    2. People might disagree with me but Hindu diaspora needs to act with more tact. All these parades with bulldozers just ain’t gonna work when most of the mainstream media narrative is against you.

      Islamists over the past few years realized that using brute force and violent threats to win people over just wont work, so instead they carefully constructed alliances with the woke left using Palestine, BLM and other divisive issues. It also helps to have a compliant media like Al-Jazeera, NYT and WaPo that will usually present only one side of the story. Go to any Pro-Palestine rally, and it wont be long before you see a “Queers for Palestine” banner. In the Anglophone world you need to be the victim to gain the support of the woke left.

      1. Western liberals like Islam because both they and Muslims hate “White Christian” culture. Islam is a historical(and current) enemy of Christendom so Western liberals like it. The enemy of my enemy. Thats all there is to it. Hindus are weird exotics that don’t factor in to this dynamic. You are never going to see white liberals holding “Queers for Modi” sign. Frankly, Hindus are never going to pull of the we are victims too card as long as American Hindus remain filthy rich for all to see and Modi/BJP runs India.

  47. A side note about dumb aspects of Gujarati culture…

    Gujarati Hindus are engaged in a religious diet purity death spiral.

    Gujarati people love arbitrary fasts and dietary restrictions.

    One of my uncles brags about not even drinking Cha(i) because caffeine is an intoxicant. One of my cousins did a fast where he only ate food that was colored white for a month.

    At the tail end certain spices are also considered to be intoxicating, and left over food is considered to be non-veg.

    I don’t eat animal products, for ethical reasons, so I like the outcome.

    But sometimes I question whether the motives of Gujarati diet restrictions, like are you really concerned with animal welfare or just keeping up with the Jains ?

    1. Even Jains mostly don’t do the onion a d garlic thing anymore. Also I hate how much the priesthood version of strict ahimsa was disseminated into guju culture.

      Rajasthani Jains have more balance where rules for religious monks and lay people is different in a sense for ahimsa, same as like Buddhism. So overdoing the whole non violence stuff is not as extreme.

      Weird asceticism virtue worshipping is a cultural deficiency among Gujaratis as a whole.

        1. 40% of gujus eat meat. Muslim Gujus def have seafood dishes. The thing is that Guju immigrants and people of notoriety are Jains, Hindu Vanias, and Patels. Even Rajputs and Brahmins are sidelined.

          Jains and Hindu Vania have been vegetarian. Panels, after Swaminarayan popularity, became a lot more vegetarian in the past couple hundred years but enough still do it eat meat. Regardless, the virtue signaling, moniker of upper classless, and morality associations with vegetarianism are highest in dharmic Gujarati culture than anywhere else in the subcontinent. This is even when Punjab is proportionally more vegetarian. Attitude towards meat there is more live and let live. For some Gujaratis, meat eaters are bad and unclean. It is a weird level of fanaticism.

          1. I am pretty sure rural patels were already predominantly vegetarian way before swaminarayan, but possibly in a more easy going traditionalist way like Jaats.

            There are no traditional non-vegetarian dishes that I am aware of and all the elderly women in the community seem grossed out by meat.

            The swaminarayn neo-religious stuff is another layer of ritual purity and strictness part of the escalating “purity death spiral”.

            The “Akram Vignan” movement is the next phase in this “arms race”. They believe in the Jain (# of sense based approach) and Hindu (sattavic approach), the truely devout take the strictest of both approaches as well as a brahmacharya vow (no-fap, celibacy) even while married.

            People think Gandhi was a pervert for doing semen retention stuff but if you understand the gujju “purity death spiral” it all makes sense.

            The way things are headed I think perhaps gujjus religious extremists will discover a form of Sokushinbutsu in the next 20 years or so.

      1. Idk, I’ve got respect for any group that tries to limit the confinement, torture, and slaughter of animals for gustatory pleasure

  48. Since President Biden assumed office nearly two years ago, his ‘open border’ policies have allowed 4.9 million illegal aliens, or about the entire population of Ireland, to cross into the US.

    America is facing a historic crisis at its southern border. White House officials could care less and have welcomed illegals (though not welcomed in white liberal elite towns, such as Martha’s Vineyard).

    The source says the task of identifying Venezuelans who have criminal records in their home country is nearly impossible. Of the thousands of Venezuelan migrants surrendering along the U.S.-Mexico border daily, most, according to the source, are being released into the United States. Without effective diplomatic relations with Venezuela, the source says access to criminal databases in that country simply does not exist.

    The source says it is unknown how many have already been released into the interior of the United States to pursue asylum.

    Sounds like Fidel Castros Mariel boatlift in 1980. 125K of the refugees had been released from jails and mental health facilities in Cuba.

  49. Can’t post in the other thread for some reason.

    No sensible person takes ‘mainstream media’ seriously. Their biases were laid bare when they ganged up on Trump. Indians want gora-validation because Indians deep down want to be gora, in looks and thought.

    1. Westerners of today did not build this world they just inherited their advantages, they were born into it. They are not great. They were never good.

      1. Don’t look to the west, world is now way bigger than the west. Make your own things, pay for our own new art and architecture movements, our own new genres of music, give money to political causes in India, …

    2. Freedom costs money. At least build sewers and drainage in Indian cities for Gods sake. If we don’t do this our great grand children too will be begging for visas and dream of raising Coconuts.

      1. I think what you are running into is the Indian comfort with imperfection. This is both a weakness and a strength, but does not suit my own personality. I like my surroundings in perfect order. This is actually the main reason I dont think I can ever move back. Even at a young age, I could see that people around me were much more comfortable with litter (even inside trains !), bending rules than I was.

        On the other hand, warmth in relationships is significantly higher in India. After all, humans are imperfect and Americans find this much harder to process. In India, you can have a social life without being overtly social. In the US, I have known people for years without knowing anything about their family or interests. Doing things for people outside your nuclear family is rare. Socializing feels very forced and artificial here to be frank. Also, all the Indians here tend to be very similar, which is understandable.

        I am less ok with this aspect of the US than I was when I was younger, especially since I have started losing interest in my past times like cricket, exercise and video games. But I can understand your distress at India’s disorder. It has real consequences and I hope it can be mitigated.

  50. Security forces are now operating at 6:1 kill ratios versus terrorists in Kashmir. There has been a marked change since the revocation of Article 370, the ratio was 2:1 even in 2013, increasing slowly till 2019 and then substantially after 2019.

    I wonder what ratio will make Pakistan and the terrorist groups give up. Pakistan’s efforts to up the ante this year havent succeeded, a lot of militants are getting arrested. And Pakistani forces have been operating at 1:1 ratios versus Balochi and Pashtun fighters for a few years now.

    What will Pakistan try next ?

    1. Vikram
      I wonder what ratio will make Pakistan and the terrorist groups give up.
      Maybe the Sri Lankan solution, cut of the head of the hydra. So that there is no charismatic leader/s to rally around.

      Did the US take a page out of SL’s book in ending Tamil terrorism. SL ended the 30 year war in May 2009 by executing the top leaders* including Prabhakaran and family.
      The US followed by executing Bin Laden in May 2011 and various other leaders in the following years. Al Qaeda is now a shell of its former strength.

      |*Executing terrorists is not a war crime.

      1. There is not one charismatic leader for Kashmir, and unlike SL/LTTE, motivation for the jihadis are completely different.

        There is hope. Was reading about the successful, decade long counter terror operations against the maoists. Most leaders are either arrested/surrendered or killed. From a peak force numbers of 7000, they have been reduced to a few hundred and lost most of their sanctuaries. It took a bit more time, but eventually fighting against a republic is not an easy thing, even an asymmetric one.

    2. There is very little left to try. Most of the infiltrations across LOC are small scale jihadists with no coherent strategy and are easily put down. They heydays of Kashmir insurgency and dreams of a massive intifada are long gone.
      The Baloch, ISKP and TTP insurgency is only going to get worse especially with the current political, economic and flood situations.

      1. I am afraid that the China factor is in play here. An India at $ 15,000 gdp (PPP) will be fatal for the CCP. I expect them to goad Pak into trying more terror attacks in India, targeting important commercial centers.

        India must push for Pakistan’s inclusion on the FATF black list, and punish companies investing there.

    1. Iranians are a lot more irreligious than people think. Probabaly as communist as any Russian was in the 60s or 70s. Its only the threat of strong government response that maintains the illusion of a religious people. But the Iranian government having survived the last four decades also seems strong enough to ward of any attempt at a color revolution by the Americans. One thing for sure, if the government ever collapses, Islam will rapidly decline in the country. Something like Catholicsim in Ireland and Spain.

      1. Is there data to back this? I have seen a large spread. Recently got to know of a FOB Iranian Ph.D. student in America who refuses (argues? idk) to let her Indian female house-mate bring any guys to their home. She refuses to shake hands with men even professionally. Sad.

        The only other person in the US that I have seen not shake hands with opposite sex was a super religious (beard, above ankle pyjama) Pakistani grad student.

  51. for their twinkling — can settle on riverside trees. “Their light blazes and is extinguished by a common sympathy,” a British diplomat touring Thailand wrote in 1857. “At one moment every leaf and branch appears decorated with diamond-like fire.”

    If one hs seen this, it is really a wondrous sight. Specially during new mooon (moonless nights) If there is a lightning flash, the fire flies lighting stops and minute or so all start again in unison.
    Often go to a nearby stretch o paddy field, so no electricity*. There are huge trees near the irrigation channels that always have water flowing. The trees are full of fireflies and a really fantastic sight.

    *Bright lights apparently are a deterrent to fireflies.


  52. i feel that mohan baghawat meeting muslim notables is more to send a signal to his followers than getting any concrete results.
    probably he is getting aware that the grass roots hindutva movement does not need rss any more for the ground level action.
    also some desire of leaving a record for posterity and legacy……

    1. I don’t think any of the RSS’ opponents have ever recognized these ideological shifts (or overtures, depending on your point of view), they still call them neo-Nazis and murderers. So what’s even the point?

      1. I am agnostic on RSS (I don’t know anything about them) but their optics are horrible.

        For starters it would really help if they switched from that weird Nazi salute to a Namaste greeting.

        The next step is to switch to a traditional uniform of some sort instead of those ridiculous high shorts. Along with tilaks, maybe make these saffron in color, to stand out.

        This stuff is just the low hanging fruit.

        Modi is actually quite good at optics (recent cheetah reintroduction stuff was quite good). Another group that is really good at PR is the Sikhs.

        Perhaps RSS can learn from them.

        (South Asian Muslims are really bad at PR, but as a protected / infantilized group their dysfunction is antifragile so don’t compare yourself with them)

        1. “as a protected / infantilized group their dysfunction is antifragile” can you elaborate a bit on this? never heard it put this way, but I think you’re on to something.

          1. Just random thoughts…

            Antifragile = gains from disorder

            Critical theory = 100% of differences in outcome between politically relevant groups are due to prejudice. This should be remedied through special privileges for said group.

            To the extent that critical theory holds, dysfunction in a politically relevant group is Antifragile.

            More disorder / dysfunction = more special privileges.

            One can argue that at some point people will have enough of the dysfunction etc.

            But currently critical theory is ascendant, and we may be far from peak woke.

  53. PFI’s Puppets in Media, Social Media And Intelligentsia Need to Be Busted

    Let us see what PFI’s eight-page document titled ‘India Vision 2047: Towards rule of Islam in India’, which was recovered after the Bihar police busted the Phulwari Sharif module, talks about.
    “If we look into history of Islam, Muslims were always in minority and for victory we do not need to have a majority. PFI is confident that even if 10% of total Muslim population rally behind it, PFI would subjugate the coward majority community to their knees and bring back the glory of Islam in India [sic],” it says. “For this, one needs to repeatedly remind Muslim community of its grievances and establish grievances where there is none. All our frontal organisations including the party should be focussed on expanding and recruiting new members. Simultaneously, we have to establish an Islamic identity among everyone beyond the concept of being an Indian.”

    But then comes the more sinister bit. The art of deception. Or as it is known in the Islamic world, ‘Al Taqiyyah’.

    “Party should utilise concepts such as ‘National Flag’, ‘Constitution’ and ‘Ambedkar’ to shield the real intention of establishing an Islamic rule and to reach out to SCs/STs/OBCs. We would reach out to the executive and judiciary and also strive to infiltrate our members at all levels in order to gather information and get favourable outcomes in matters of our interest. Further, liaisoning is to be established with foreign Islamic countries for funding and other help,” the PFI vision documents says.

    It draws from the Quranic idea of Al Taqiyyah. Sura 3:28 says: “Let not believers take disbelievers as allies, instead of fellow believers. And whoever does that has nothing to do with Allah, except when that person is taking precaution against them in prudence. And Allah warns you of Himself, and Allah is the destination.”


  54. Though the initial trigger was the death of a woman by the morality police, the protests in Iran seem to be mostly about Kurdish rights. The Western media on the other hand makes it seem like it’s only about women’s rights. What they dont get is that 20 something year old guys, particularly in the Middle East, will risk their lives for their religion, language etc but no one is going to do that for “women’s rights”.

  55. Saw Brahmaastra last week.

    Absolutely crap movie.

    Terrible story and editing. And despite all the VFX, a distinct lack of vision.

    I don’t think Bollywood can ever make a global scale movie with the current lot involved.

    1. On big screen they can show Jacqueline Fernandez’s (or Katrina’s) thighs in Houseful 5, or Race 6. Or they can swindle Netflix or Amazon.

      Nepotism has high costs. I enjoy TVF more than Bollywood or Tollywood. Rajamouli is an exception.

  56. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXKy12G5qUg

    ^All of these women (from India) as well as the Indian panel member, look like non-White Latin Americans/Hispanics.

    The moment they change their names to Maria and Elisabeta and Jose, they become non-White Latinos for the US


    ^ This guy would be considered a more Caucasian non-White Latino in the US than the other women, but still passes as a Harnizo non-White Hispanic/Latino. Jose Martinez if you will.


    ^ This guy would be considered aWhite passing/MENA/“Arab” and/or Castizo Latino. In the same category as Preet Bharara and Nikki Haley, who are both Castizos, and like Freddy Mercury.


    ^ This guy would be considered White/Italian/Greek/Persian and/or a Criollo Latin/Hispanic American. Just like Shashi Kapoor and Rahul Dev.

    1. Hey rt1990w, why do you always post Khatris as examples of whiteness in NW South Asia, as if there was large minority of them looking White? Why not Jaats and Rors when your family is from Haryana?

      1. I don’t know what you’re talking about. My family is not from Haryana. These people are public figures, I would post examples of all castes if I knew of public figures from each caste.

        Besides, if Khatris are White so are Arains/Aroras/Kambojas/Jatts/Rors/UC Sindhis and some Kashmiri tribes, as they are more West Eurasian than Khatris, both on PCA and in admixture. And of course, from the community members I’ve seen in real life, they look the part too.

        1. Judging from your comments, your family is from somewhere around the NCR.
          The reason you can’t find examples of even the most West Eurasian dominant people looking “white” in appreciable numbers besides a few outliers is a simple one – they pretty much don’t exist.

          Of the groups you’ve listed, the light-types almost never pass as typical Afghans let alone MENA/Caucasus or even South European save for a handful of outliers.

          1. I don’t know what you mean by passing — from what I’ve seen of these communities, as long as they are West Eurasian (their Parents/Grandparents are all West Eurasian) they all pass as West Asians, and passing in Europe is possible in cases where Steppe ancestry is reflected in their phenotypes or when their West Asian face overlaps with Europeans.

            PCA and admixture results speak for themselves too, they cluster with other South Central Asians like Pashtuns and Kho/Chitralis. Passing as Afghan is a meaningless term, most Afghans are mixed and look Turkic; NW South Central Asians look like Pashtuns and some Ishkashimi Tajiks, after all their best fit is in Iran, so Afghanistan is a given.

            As far as numbers are concerned, I won’t be surprised if the vast majority of Jats/Khatris/Kambojas and Rors don’t pass West of Afghanistan, because the simple truth of the matter is that the vast majority aren’t even who they are/claim to be to begin with —- there are large groups of people in each of these castes and tribes that are autosomally as admixed as lower caste North Indians who are only Upper caste in surname, and that cluster with lower castes as well.

            They make up the bulk of people in each caste/tribe. Like Ro Khanna or Dushyant Chautala. Any PCA of South Asia shows this, there are plenty of outlier Khatris, Pashtuns, Pathans and Jats scattered along the PCA cline, ranging from Chamars to Baniyas to Brahmins. OTOH, the minority of people that are autosomally West Eurasian and that cluster with other South Central Asians, form a minority in each of these castes and tribes and they look the part as well. In any society with caste based hypergamy such claims to upper caste status is expected. It has been going on for centuries.

        2. Didn’t you say you were a haryanvi jat in a previous avatar?

          Username Apthk or something like that

  57. Since Pakistan is rarely discussed here, I try to sometimes diversify the debates a bit since it’s important to keep ajour of what’s happening across India’s borders.

    The devastating floods that struck Pak a few weeks ago required $30 billion to repair the damage. Islamabad raised the issue of “climate reparations”. So far they’ve received something like $240 million, not even 1% of what they need.

    The Pak currency is reaching the same heights as before the IMF bailout, essentially wiping out all the gains.

    In the midst of this economic chaos, they need a steady hand. So far, the current technocrat (Miftah) has the position as finance minister but now the frontpage of Dawn is splashed with Ishaq Dar’s grubby face. This is the guy who kept an artificial exchange rate and is generally seeing as a complete idiot. Pakistan has many of those, to be sure, but this guy takes the cake. He is politically influential and is seen as close to the Nawaz family.

    There have been whispers for months about him replacing the technocrat Miftah who has no political base of support. We’ll see what happens but it certainly seems like Pakistan is in a long-term structural decline. It’s easy to overlook them as so much is happening in the world otherwise.

  58. @warlock

    Your comments about fighting deracination are interesting but IMHO it’s mostly a doomed fight. Ethno-nationalism is a demonised concept in the world today, but it is the only sure-fire way to ensure continuity for your people. Even if birthrates are falling, if you can control the borders it will mean a lot. Japan, despite Abe’s best attempts to make it multicultural, is still very homogenous long after their population peaked.

    It’s simply a very small number of people who have the perseverance and mental acuity to keep culture intact for generations. And this isn’t even about Hindu (or moslem) issues because both those religions have their subgroups. Especially Islam given how many different countries are moslem. Most moslems in the West are quite recent, but when I look at the 2nd gen where I live in Europe I see a lot of assimiliation. Either marrying non-moslems or when marrying other moslems, not marrying those from your own ethnic group. That’s also a form of cultural dilution.

    The recent rally by Sikhs in Brampton interested me and it seems few here either noticed or if you did, bothered to even write about it. To me, it shows the dilemma. Sikhs are certainly a unique ethno-religious group yet the prospect of their own homeland is essentially nil. They had 57% of Punjab’s population in the 2011 census. The 2010s was a period of very high migration of sikhs, particularly to Canada, so I suspect the numbers in the newest Indian census will be pretty blackpilling.

    So as Sikhs are leaving their ancestral homeland they start staging rallies for a Khalistan over in Canada. Apparently 100K showed up.


    India is understandably concerned but in my view, they have little reason to be that. It’s basically a form of guilt-tripped diaspora LARPing by a group who know deep down they will never get their state.

    I mean, if you’re going to argue for a “Khalistan”, shouldn’t you first live in the area? Abandoning the place just makes you look weak. I suspect we will see much more of this kind of LARPing from other groups as they come to the West. They will have pangs of guilt and will do these empty gestures like Sikh Khalistan rallies.

      1. Khalistan was always an ethnoreligious movement. A portion of Jatt Sikhs hijacked Sikhism and wanted to create a feudal agricultural theocratic state straddling NW India and Pak region. Their descendents fled to places like Canada in the 80s. You can tell Jattism is perhaps even stronger than Sikhism; among the pro Khalistani youth, “Jatt is King,” vibes are greater in GTA than the type of inclusivity that Guru Nanak promoted via Sikhism .

        Everyone recognized the thin veneer of equality, with the worst sex ratios among Sikhs, implying the highest selective abortion rates. Also, the hypocrisy of separate Gurudwaras for people like Chamars and Jats, even permeating the diaspora. You also see among the worst caste based land ownership disparity rates. Casteism and tribal vibes permeate almost every major song, so it is even in modern pop culture.

        Razib has even talked about the racism towards S Indians that young Central Valley California American Jatt Sikhs displayed. They will ally with Democrats and go to BLM rallies but then talk shit about ugly S Indians ruining their image, via people associating all Indian groups with a single identity.

    1. As Punjab falls deeper into debt from socialist stupidty and consequences of poor environmental management, draining the water table and stubble burning destroying the air, be sure the Khalistanis will blame “oppressive UC Hindu” rule.

      Even many diaspora Sikhs do not support Khalistan, perhaps even most. But among the youth, it is trendy and part of the “Woke” narrative. Bhinderwale is their Che. Very astutely allying with socialists like NDP and using new wokedom is something Khalistanis have done extremely well. Their propaganda is next tier. It would make the likes of Goebbels and Trotsky envious. They use Tik Tok and insta like boomer Hindutuva ITcell uses Whatsapp. Youth is future so their side is planting seeds best.

      Alliance with secular Pakistani nationalists and from there broader leftist radical islamoaplogists is also there, particularly notable in Canada, the epicenter of the Moosewala style “Punjabiyat” narrative. They will turn Punjab narrative into the equivalent of Palestine for Canadian leftists. It is already happening. Hindus and sensible Sikh voices are relatively inactive.

      The only hope is new migrants more aggressively calling out the BS and tussling with the radicalism openly. This will draw attention and galvanize other sides to fight to have their voices heard against the, until now, largely silently building, Khalistani agenda.

      1. Per 2011 census Sikhs are 1.48 percent of the population of Canada

        Per 2011 census Sikhs are 1.8 percent of the population of India.

        Give the level of immigration in the last 10 years I think on a percentage basis they are a higher proportion of Canada’s population compared to India.

    2. India is understandably concerned but in my view, they have little reason to be that. It’s basically a form of guilt-tripped diaspora LARPing by a group who know deep down they will never get their state.

      India should be concerned
      The LTTE was heavily funded by the SL Tamil diaspora in the west, specially in Toronto, Canada and the UK. The funding thru legal channels ended after 9/11 when the LTTE was designated a Terrorist group.

      That was a war for 30 years, courtesy India and the West Luckily the Chinese gave funds and arms and it was ended decisively in 2009.

      If the Sikhs get a charismatic leader, and a nearby safe haven (eg in Pakistan) India will have a big problem on its hands

      1. Indian state is well aware. Hence why they track these things so much. Indian media was all over Canada referendum. Heck Farmer Protest was heavily funded by diaspora dollars. It almost turned into a flash point before Hindu Jaats also joined in. Then Indian state breathed a sigh of relief because then it was more of a pan caste agitation. Then they gave up totally when Bhagwat of socialist RSS was scared to lose Jaat vote in UP and influenced Modi to take it back.

        1. I dont think it was because of Jaat vote. The Jaats of Haryana-Punjab oppose the BJP, while the miniscule pops in UP and Rajasthan vote for other parties. In UP and Haryana, its the non Jaats who vote BJP in Jaat regions.

          There is no vote to be had.

          1. There was nothing to be gained by persisting. It’s just one less problem BJP could do without. Bit like CAA. As soon as the Bengal election were over the BJP dropped it like a hot potato.

            In both cases, the demographics which these laws would help, do not want it themselves. So why should BJP carry their burden. If these groups want to rot, they can rot. The BJP electoral fate do not depend on either of these demographics.

  59. Brown,,
    Here is Dravidian or probably pre-Dravidian

    kali kovil kaavadi
    I love the music past about approx 5;00 mins

    Kavadi Aattam (Tamil:காவடி ஆட்டம், Malayalam: കാവടിയാട്ടം) (“Burden Dance”) is a ceremonial sacrifice and offering practiced by devotees during the worship of Lord Murugan, the Hindu God of War.

    The most spectacular practice is the vel kavadi, essentially a portable altar up to two meters tall, decorated with peacock feathers and attached to the devotee through 108 vels pierced into the skin on the chest and back. Fire walking and flagellation may also be practiced. It is claimed that devotees are able to enter a trance, feel no pain, do not bleed from their wounds and have no scars left behind.

    I am surprised that the Vel Kavadi did not take hold among the Sinhalese, though they do Kavadi “Lite” forr Kali. Thy cynic in me thinks typical off the Sinhalese,, the easy path not too much work.

    1. very interesting,my observations:
      1. the song in the background is about gana natha i.e ganesha, which is a pan hindu god.
      2. the initial sankalpa or dedication is done by a brahmin priest, with the participants given a ‘pavitra’ made from darbhe grass.
      3. the rites of kavadi are then taken over by non brahmins, for obvious reasons.
      4. thus the puja process gets the sanctity of brahmins, and in turn vedic hinduism.
      5. my question is if the practices are 100% vedic and is conducted by tamil brahmins, will the dravidians accept this is part of their heritage. seems doubtful.

      1. brown
        I assume you are a Brahmin
        Sri Lanka is Sudra country
        Even in Hindu Jaffna, Brahmins are non entities. No political clout, wealth or education. often fake claims of being Brahmins.
        The vellala owners of the temples are ok with the fakery. It legitimizes their ownership on the cheap..

        To add their is no anti brahminism in Sri Lanka. brahmin were never a factor.

  60. There is good show called “Main Bhi Bharat” about indian tribal people, sadly it is Hindi so hard for english speakers to access.

    Interesting to learn that there is a tribe in Himachal that practices Polyandry where 2 brothers get married to one wife.

    Similar to the Pandava protagonists the Mahabharat.

    Seems to stem from poverty and skewed sex ratio, but interesting from a genetic perspective as well, they say they don’t know which brother their kids belong to.

    1. wrote about polyandry in Sri Lanka in Brown Pundits.

      There is an old Sinhala saying where four breasts cant get along, four heads can.

      Many are under the impression that polyandry was some ancient/mythical social structure ( (e.g. Draupadi in the Mahabaratha).

      To the the contrary it was prevalent till modern times in Sri Lanka/Ceylon, Nepal and certain groups in India. In Ceylon polyandry was prevalent till the 1950’s in the remote parts of the Kandyan kingdom, e.g. Nuwara-Kalaviya.


    2. I first heard about it among Tibetans. Maybe harsh environment made if selective advantage? R vs. K strategy?

      1. warlock
        Sri Lanka, specially the hill country is anyting but harsh. Lotus eaters paradise where rains fall , sun shines and fruit trees in abundance.

        There has to be rethink, to understand.
        The concept that the individual does not own property or the children. The individual and children “belongs”* to the property. Then everything falls into place.

        One can walk away from the “property” but then they loose income and rights deriving from property. Much the same as a “Diga” marriage for a woman. She looses her rights to home property. However, loosing is not permanent, if one comes back, like a woman who leaves her diga marriage, and comes back to her home she gets back her income and right from home property.

        Does not really curtail individualism, just the ability to fund individualism from inherited wealth. The huge pro, is the safety net.

  61. Been tinkering on Vahaduo for a while, it sure is an addictive little program lol

    So I tried to keep it simple on Vahaduo and used a small amount of samples to get the closest distance I could as a Bengali Muslim. I used Shahr-i-Sokhta BA2, Shahr-i-Sokhta BA1, Simulated AASI average by DMXX(you can download it on Genoplot through nmonte), Sintashta and, NPL Samdzong. Used Samdzong cuz I have a high Mongoloid component and this was the one that gave me the closest fit cuz it’s Tibetan/Tibetic and North Bengal fellas like myself score our Mong from there cuz of geographical proximity etc you get the idea.
    Heres what I got:

    Target: wiseman_scaled
    Distance: 2.0584% / 0.02058409

    30.6 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

    22.2 Simulated_AASI_by_DMXXAverage_scaled

    19.8 NPL_Samdzong_1500BP

    15.0 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA

    12.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA1

    Pretty solid distance I’d say, no? I hear that brown folks in general don’t really get BA1 much. Lurker Bengalis could try out this model, if you’re from North Bengal like myself (I’m from Rangpur, North Bengal is Rajshahi and up, including northern Mymensingh and ofc Jalpaiguri, Darjeeling Cooch Behar u get the gist), you’d prolly get a decent fit. For other Bengalis, replace the Samdzong with Amur River or Dai or Burman idk

    Also, I scored 10.8% Caucasian Hunter Gatherer on IllustrativeDNA which is almost nonexistent in South Asians, I’ve only seen one South Indian get 9% while everybody else either got none or 2-3%. Because of that I added Georgian Populations to the Vahaduo model and got an even closer distance of 1.8774 but somehow they used Georgian Jew instead of GEO_CHG lol

    Target: wiseman_scaled
    39.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

    20.4 Simulated_AASI_by_DMXXAverage_scaled

    19.0 NPL_Samdzong_1500BP

    5.5 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA

    9.6 Georgian_Jew

    4.6 MNG_Afasanievo

    1.6 RUS_Tyumen_HG

    asking if razib senpai, thewarlock, dathang or any of you other fellas tell me what’s up. What do you guys think my AASI is, and my Steppe as well as my IVC-related ancestry???? Would be appreciated lol

  62. So just did the calculations based off of the Vahaduo model..

    IVC-related= 34%

    AASI= 31%

    Tibetan= 20%

    Steppe= 15%

    Basically that is how my ancestry is broken down lulz basically an even split between West Eurasian and East Eurasian which falls in line with the estimates for us ethnic Bengalis(non Brahmins, at least from the samples we got). From Dinajpur, in Rangpur and Rangpur is historically a part of North Bengal(Varendra).

    Yall post yours for comparison

    1. Lol all of India makes funny of Gujaratis, especially Banias. How can anyone blame them? Easy targets unfortunately

    1. I’ll be brief: I think it was the US. They may have had help from local collaborators, but ultimately the question isn’t “who pulled the trigger” so much as “who ordered the hit”?

      What’s amazing, but not very surprising, is how calmly the German elites are taking it, essentially lying down. I do not believe that the sabotage came as an act of shock for them. You don’t blow up pipelines like this without significant Deep State buy-in on the German side.

      1. Thanks principia, thought you would be more of the Russians did it variety.
        Yes, HJ EU is occupied territory, the place is full of US bases
        Some other stuff I noted
        Zelensky should read up about President Ngô Đình Diệm, Americas man in South Vietnam till he wasnt and was then murdered. Hope he has also heard Kissingers “”To be an enemy of America can be dangerous, but to be a friend is fatal.”

        According to Lucien Conein, the US Army and CIA officer who was the American liaison with the coup, most of the officers, including Minh, wanted Diệm to have an “honorable retirement” from office, followed by exile.

        Dunn offered to personally go to the brothers’ hideout to escort him so that the generals could not kill him, but Lodge refused, saying, “We just can’t get that involved.”[16] Dunn said, “I was really astonished that we didn’t do more for them.”[18] Having refused to help the brothers to leave the country safely, Lodge later said after they had been shot, “What would we have done with them if they had lived? Every Colonel Blimp in the world would have made use of them.

        Somebody is happy and sees opportunity in Nordstream pipes being blown up.
        Blinken: weaponization of energy by Russia – is to work very closely with European partners as well as countries around the world to make sure that there is enough energy on world markets. And so we’ve significantly increased our production as well as making available to Europe liquefied natural gas. And we’re now the leading supplier of LNG to Europe to help compensate for any gas or oil that it’s losing as a result of Russia’s aggression against Ukraine.
        And ultimately this is also a tremendous opportunity. It’s a tremendous opportunity to once and for all remove the dependence on Russian energy and thus to take away from Vladimir Putin the weaponization of energy as a means of advancing his imperial designs.
        That’s very significant and that offers tremendous strategic opportunity for the years to come , but meanwhile, we’re determined to do everything we possibly can to make sure that the consequences of all of this are not borne by citizens in our countries or, for that matter, around the world.

  63. https://openthemagazine.com/essays/hinduism-is-forging-a-new-unity-around-its-history-of-persecution/

    ‘If Hindu kings had invaded the Hijaz over hundreds of years, used Arab Muslim women as sex slaves and exported thousands to India, taxed Muslims if they wished to continue practicing Islam, sacked Mecca, built a Shiva temple on the Kaaba’s ruins, boasted about watering their horses at the Zamzam well—and documented all of this themselves in extensive chronicles—one might expect Muslims to feel a touch of resentment. In the Mus­lim narrative, Hindus would be cast as brutal aggressors, bent on eradicating their faith and humiliating its followers. It would be difficult, if not outright dishonest, to gainsay that narrative.

    The Hindu invasions of the Dar ul-Islam never happened, of course. The inverse of that happened. The stigmata remain. Prayag is still named “Allahabad” on the maps. Unlike Rama’s birth site, Krishna’s remains marked by a dargah. The most obvious effect of those invasions can be seen on the map: South Asia’s Muslims feared living in a democracy among people their co-religionists had conquered and despoiled so long ago. They agitated for, and received, a separate country.’

    1. I think some kind of reconquista was always on the cards once conversion to Islam stalled in India (15% in Mughal era, 17% at the time of 1871 census). Rural UP is 90% Hindu even today.

      The nature of the reconquista was determined by the attitudes of the Muslim elite, internal Hindu politics and British policy. The outcome is basically a ‘fully Muslim’, but somewhat globally adrift Pakistani Muslim and a Hinduizing Indian Muslim.

      Basically the Muslim distilled out rather than diffusing in.

    2. Prayag is still named “Allahabad” on the maps
      Then just change it, Hindus are the majority. Why whine about something that can be easily changed?

      Unlike Rama’s birth site, Krishna’s remains marked by a dargah
      Then just build a new Temple there and stop crying about “Historical Grievance” and “icons of oppression” like a Leftist. Gangetic Hindus seriously need to grow a pair and get over it.

  64. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80BhjRh-Q-s

    Amazing discussion between Patel and Hsu. Points on additive nature of human genetic variation is amazing. I definitely did not appreciate that. I always anticipated more higher order interactions. But the point about Fisher’s modeling results and why that intuitively makes sense really opened up my mind. Just a privilege to have free access to such knowledge.

  65. China’s unicorns are almost all “hard tech”-related.


    No fintech, no ecommerce, no web3 fluff. I’ve said before and I’ll say it again: there’s a difference between unicorns and unicorns. Just getting a bloated valuation isn’t very worthwhile. Is actual innovation occurring or is it just more speculative nonsense?

  66. What are your recommendations for a good “Gateway article” to introduce generally curious people to ancient DNA stuff?

    Context –
    Have a lawyer friend who has read a bunch of history but is clueless about the recent advances in our understanding due to ancient DNA.
    Maybe something related to caste or India could be the hook.

    1. The organization “Hindus for Human Rights” opposes any notion of “Human Rights for Hindus” in the diaspora.

      They deny any form of Hinduphobia exists and were against very reasonable things like recognition that the “swastika” (a culturally appropriated term) is not a hate symbol and has deep roots in Hinduism. They also list moderate Hindu organizations like the Hindu American Foundation as hate groups.

      To the extent that diaspora Hindu have any political clout it should be focused on efforts in exposing this org.

    2. ‘hell for Hindu diaspora’

      Hindu diaspora should think long and hard about their selfishness. They think that they are uniquely talented and have gamed the system. At their core they want to become white and erase all but the convenient connections to their brethren and land. Raising even worse off ABCDs who give nothing back and think of themselves as whites.

      BC itna chutiya banate hain duniya ko, I see so many Indian doctors who want others to believe that they came to the US to ‘serve the disadvantaged communities in Southern Ohio’, Aji ***** mera! America hi toh bacha tha seva ke liye.

      Just because FOBs immigrated to the west they start talking as if it was their ancestors and their values who sailed the world, pillaged and enslaved other races, built the airplane, unleashed subatomic bonds, invented Hilbert spaces, or discovered the double helix. Forgetting their true place and aukaat in the world.

      World is too wicked, too unfair. Pay money today, organize and preempt. Or remain Prithviraj and see your kids convert.

      When they come for you, it won’t matter if you were chanting ‘Gau-mutra states’, ‘our culture not Hindu culture’, ‘I am an American, we are not a tribal society’ (LuLz @ the coconuts who say the last one).

      1. Who is “coming for them”?

        My Indian neighbours have Western names for their children.. since their skin color is quite light, next generation nobody is telling them apart. And perhaps this is better for them. Unlike Islam, Hindus don’t have international allies or the mosque network. They get ahead by assimilating.

        You just seem to harbor resentment for diaspora Indians for leaving India. It is God’s green earth..people should go wherever they are rewarded the most.

        1. The Wokes. Islamists will directly murder them in a riot like what was about to happen in the UK. But the Wokes are most dangerous. They will claim all success is from “caste privilege.” In the US at least, the blunt tool of affirmative action will be used to cut down many. Hopefully Canada does not have this plague of basically a reservations system. One in which some groups can do an entire standard deviation lower and get the same goodies.

          Number of Indians passing off as fully white is a tiny minority. The other result is funding by leftists of Break India forces. That’s a whole ecosystem described above.

          And assimilation to Western values is good for every group. Not disputing that. Even most Muslims do that in the US. In the UK, radical islamist proportion is much higher. Hopefully Canada is more like the US. I know quite a few atheist only cultural Muslims and some just pure atheists like Razib, especially Iranians and Lebanese. MENA more likely become that way. S Asian ones stay more hard-core for whatever reason.

          And these Mosque networks aren’t exactly helping many get ahead like assimilation would. Effect is small. People do both for a reason. Assimilation is Trump

      2. Who is “coming for them”?

        Folks have already stopped counting Indians from India in diversity positions even though they might have been disadvantaged, struggled and worked harder than other groups. This is already happening, the only check against this is the sheer volume and effort Indians are putting in.

        “Unlike Islam, Hindus don’t have international allies or the mosque network. They get ahead by assimilating.”

        Islam has leftist wankers for allies only because they want to virtue signal and piss off the conservatives and win votes. Mosques are anyways the haunt of weirdos. I used to live in muslim majority areas so I know.

        “You just seem to harbor resentment for diaspora Indians for leaving India.”
        I cheer for Indians (including diaspora) unconditionally. Indians in the US (1st as well as 2nd gen) have always been kind and helpful to me. I just don’t like the selfishness and petty scheming that I see in lots of Indian tech bros that I am around.

        “It is God’s green earth..people should go wherever they are rewarded the most.”
        Obviously, I don’t know why you doubt that I don’t want this. I want Indians to do well, succeed and enjoy all the good things that Africa, Latin America, Europe, Australia… have to offer.

        Bhai, I was not talking about you. You are Gujju Jain, you folks (and Marwaris) get +10 points in any Indian’s head anyways.

    3. I’ve read the ad. I do agree with the point about Bilkis Bano which is disgusting and I hope justice is served in that case. But honestly people get too much worked about these ads and opinion pieces that appear in WaPo, NYT and other sites. These newspapers have pretty low credibility and WaPo is even losing subscribers. In order to get more revenue, they need to manufacture more outrage because outrage sells and that’s exactly what they’re doing.

      Israel, Russia, China get far more negative coverage on a daily basis than India gets in a week. Probably throw in Brazil and Iran too. As India’s economy grows, it’s pretty much expected that there will more scrutiny. Policy decisions aren’t made based on some news, opinion pieces and ads.

  67. richard hanania now has a different view about democracy, liberalism, americanism etc. He is more knowledgeable than me, it is his day job, but I just want to say, you heard it from me, first. Though those who backed US were saying so from the start, so make of it what you will.

    1. Russia is being humiliated. I supported Russia at first and my sympathies still lie with it but I can’t deny that they are a laughing stock right now. If you are going to invade and you don’t win then you will start losing your supporters one by one.

      1. Also I don’t think the US-India partnership will amount to anything. US will frankly not accept a relationship of equals. It has never had to in its history other than a temporary one with Soviet Union during WW2. India is strong enough that it will not accept a subordinate status. It’s not a relationship that will work out. If India and China could come to some sort of rapprochement that would be great for both countries.

        1. China will not view India as an equal either. Why should it? It is way ahead and wants total hegemony

          1. warlock
            China will not view India as an equal either. Why should it? It is way ahead and wants total hegemony
            Can you provide evidence for your claim of total hegemony.

          2. @warlock
            Where are India and China’s interests fundamentally at odds? The way i see it both of these countries, being so populous have two shared strategic characteristics. One is securing resources for growth, mainly not being boxed out of global trade access. Second, which makes them somewhat benign, is that they can become superpowers without creating a new wealth paradigm. What makes the US so dangerous is that to maintain our position we must supress others. Our population is only a strength vs a vs Europe and Japan. China becoming a 25k per capita GDP nominal economy would be unacceptably disruptive. Even India at 12k nominal is unpalatable. India and China have less to lose from the world developing and converging on western levels of wealth. Without a 150k per capita GDP paradigm emerging in the west, they are going to only perceive strategic threats. In the current year, tech isn’t providing the optimism to forecast those productivity gains in next few decades. Too many bottlenecks, energy foremost.

          3. Re. China and IN being at odds, I am/was still inclined to believe that they are not at odds. But the Chinese definitely get a vote on this. There is a strong faction within CCP that wouldn’t mind teaming up with US and kicking RU and IN down. Obviously PK and UKR will act willing proxies in this gameplan. Supporting data points in this regard are a recent Chinese official saying to US that IN is watching on a hill while 2 tigers (CN and US) are fighting it out. Further a retired Politburo official (Song) has gently admonished to take up reform and opening up path.
            Bottomline is that US has sorted out IK in PK. If CCP internal battles sort out in favor of non-confrontationist lobby then RU & IN will indeed face difficult strategic environments. This does not mean that we bend the knee to US but be open and pragmatic and not over estimate our capacities. Emulate CN by being open to cooperation for mutual benefit but don’t allow internal sabotage.

  68. Here’s a Kalash man from NW South Asia that looks like Ron DeSantis’ biological brother, almost a doppelgänger; and definitely the same racial/ethnic group as Ron: https://ibb.co/fq1Tg0m

    There are people in NW South Asia, among Jaats/Khatris/Jats and others etc. that look exactly like him.

    Since Rors/Jaats/Jats/Khatris/Pashtuns and Kambojas cluster with the Kalash and Kho/Chitrali people on PCAs, have similar AASI levels, share Oracles, and have more Steppe than the Kalash in many cases, it is no surprise that these faces are often found among South Central Asians in NW India and Pakistan/Afghanistan.

    Only admixed South Asians would have trouble recognizing these faces as their own. NW South Asian UCs and tribes/biradris would count Ron DeSantis and Karl Rocks’ father as a part of their own ethnic group. After all, these NW South Asians are essentially like Pamiri Tajiks with minor additional AASI.

    This is a good test to see just how different the average South Asian is from these NW tribes/Biradris with Central Asian origins.

    Here in the US, water finds its own level and all South Asians self-segregate based on their racial and ethnic group and other Americans treat them as they appear/ based on their race and facial appearance. Those that are Aryan/Caucasian like Jats and Khatris thus are White for America and those that are non-White pass either as Latinos/Hispanics of different stripes, or as NE/SE Asians, as Blacks (Siddis) or as Dravidians/stereotypical Onge admixed South Asians from Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and Southern India that are in some cases mistaken for black at first glance by the uninformed.

    1. Hindu Culture being labelled as “Secular” is an absolute win in my eyes. If Xtians in TN are willing to accept the Cholas&Valluvar as long as we pretend they’re “secular” icons, then let’s get on with it! If Akbar can become a “Secular” emperor then so can the Cholas lol

    1. Lets see how long the Swedes(and Euros in general) will keep on being self-righteous about their law and order policies. Me thinks when parts of Stockholm look like Chicago, their police might also start behaving more like the American ones. All in all, the idiocy of Scandinavians is remarkable. Americans have litte choice other than to work with the demographics we got. Scandinavians on the other hand had an amazing high trust, low crime society well into the late 2000s that they sacrified on the altar of moral superiority. Fucking idiots deserve it.

      1. The bombings had nothing to do with Islam. It was connected to a Yugoslav 2nd gen immigrant, a Serb in fact, who recently was let out of prison. He had lived in both places and his old associates are more than willing to send a public message to him that they haven’t forgotten him. Presumably a lot of bad blood remains.

        You can construe an anti-immigration narrative around these bombings, but then it’d have to be based on race rather than religion given that Serbs are Christians.

        (It’s very typical of Indians to view the world through the prism of religion, because that’s the dominant faultline in the subcontinent, even if that rarely makes much sense in the West).

        1. I didn’t mention religion. But now that you have brought it up, its pretty clear that its not Christians who are causing most of the issues in Sweden. Its mostly Muslim Syrians, Iraqis, Afghanis and Somalis. Religion may have nothing to do with it. Perhaps if the Afghanis were Lutherans, they would still be engaging in car bombings. But I just don’t believe it.

          1. HJ
            I think that most MENA are unruly because they are not addicts, booze or hard drugs.

            Europe should take a leaf out the US and flood economically deprived areas with hard. Unhappily not sustainable in the long term as will spread to the better parts.

  69. On CN and IN teaming up.

    I used to believe the Chinese were smart enough to see the benefits but then they idiotically decided to initiate the border crisis of 2020. Clearly, they seem to be operating under a zero-sum game.

    Worse, given the paucity of Chinese support to Russia during this war (outside of energy imports), it seems pretty clear to me that Beijing isn’t in a rush to decouple from the Western system. Honestly, I think the Chinese are just “let us sell stuff to the world and leave us alone”. They are only engaged in trying to supplant Western tech because they are *forced* to by the West. If no sanctions had been forthcoming, they’d just be a Mega Taiwan. Rich, but isolated.

    Another fact is that India’s elites are too westernised to even attempt to pull away from the Western sphere. Western-oriented liberals may not win elections in India and perhaps they cannot call upon the loyalty of the Hindi heartland, but they still hold the commanding heights in terms of media, universities, NGOs etc.

    A much larger share of India’s upper-middle class have family in the West than their Chinese counter-parts. Most Chinese international students actually go back home these days, whereas most Indians end up staying. This also acts as a natural barrier for any anti-Western alliance, since large amounts of UMC Indians still want to settle in the West given the opportunity. Any domestic policy shift that would make this harder will be opposed by them, fiercely.

    So I am skeptical of a CN/IN alliance both because the Chinese have proven themselves to be geopolitically dumb as well as the fact that Indian upper-middle class elites are much more westernised than their Chinese counter-parts.

    On top of that, India’s economy is much more vulnerable to sanctions than China’s is. Most of India’s specialisation has been in software exports. In terms of hardware, they are far behind. This may be changing with the PLI schemes, but even here we’re mostly talking joint ventures etc.

    The US slept at the wheel when China started to move away from the Western camp (politically). They will not make this mistake twice when it comes to India. This also explains why there is so much talk about Hindutva in the Western press. The ground is being prepared for future interventions, and you need political justifications to do it, which are now soon complete.

  70. It sucks being right about USA and its support for wokeism. the wokeism in america is a blowback of its interventionist policies in rest of the world.
    Our guess about america at brownpundits and getting them right inspite of propaganda by USA with a lot of brown people / black people etc peddling their interests is a fantastic endorsement for this site. It really is, It took a good part of 8 yrs to get to this point. Now, people might have to disseminate it so next gen and others wont need decades to get this point. Hope the twitter folks do it. I am out. The best foreign policy, domestic policy, security policy, internal and external , for H’s , every thing is 20 trillion dollar economy.

    And yes, america is paving the ground for intervention, because people realise, islamic fundamentalism probably cannot be solved within liberal democratic framework.

    1. The Chinese got it right first by putting Uighur Islamic Extremists in re education camps.

      1. China is also lot more socially stable than India. 90%+ of the country is Han Chinese. Sure there are regional difference(Cantonese vs Hokkien) but they still consider themselves to be part of the same ethnocultural group. Muslims are maybe 1-2% of the population split between Chinese Muslims(Hui) and Turkic Muslims(Uyghur). Hui and Uyghur are not fond of each other. Chinese emperors in the past frequently used Hui troops to fight Uyghurs. In general, Hui seem to put their Chinese identity over their Muslim one.

  71. It is a fact, the nations foundations are not possible on liberal/democratic framework. Utopianism is worst possible human mistake in such times. Now Islamic fundamentalism is the gound on which US will seek intervention in India, building to help pakistan. Make no doubt about it, china has risen, they do not seek another asian giant to rise as well. We are the target. I am least bothered about islamic fundamentalism. But I will admit fear of USA. That has always been there. They have many tools, economic, political, military, tech, ngo academy media complex. Make no doubt about it.And america has revealed its cards by its recent thaw in relations with pakistan. Pakistan has nothing to offer usa, except to be a tool against India. That was why it was created by british who still are the primary advisers to usa on this part of the world.
    20 trillion dollars economy or something worse will happen. No other way about it. My point of islamic fundamentalism cannot be solved in liberal democratic framework simply is about time. Even christian fundamentalism has thinned over time, that is centuries. expecting to happen in decades as hoped by Indian national congress/ gandhi/nehru and their utopianism was a serious blunder and generations have paid for it already . It will be the sword used against us.
    My view is that India should bow to west for next 50 yrs or pretend to do so, deceit for a period of time to survive a hegemon is acceptable. problem is, no one in India wants India to bow, except rahul gandhi( for timebeing) and some wokeshits. Last time, India simply chose to lead non alignment movement for usa to support pakistan. Not choosing usa will make you their no 1 enemy.
    My relatively correct prediction wrt to russia was based also on my fear of usa. It is ok to fear usa. They are the most powerful hegemon in human history. Even china with its power and wealth has chosen not to help russia any time soon, they realize usa is too powerful even now. China will have to continue its role in staying low for another 50 yrs.
    There is no dispute to usa being undispute power for next 50 yrs at a minimum, and maximum of 150 yrs. But in order to do that, you need to immunized your society within, what liberal order is doing is undoing the westphalian order where internal interference on religion was to be avoided. The new hegemon wants to control your social attitudes,disputes etc inside your own country.

    This take of mine is a prophylactic take, better be prepared than sorry to be caught by the new hegemons frenzy. New york times/ wapo are good bets to understand what the new hegemon thinks. They stopped journalism long ago. As their recent coverage about the dispute between hindus/muslims in England has shown. American media has direct connection to american intelligence.

    Just saw a video where american ambassador to russia laughs and admits lying as essential part of ambassadors, in trying to fool ukraine on their possibility to join nato.

  72. Again, this is not a prediction, as i admitted, my fear of usa is big enough that i dont want this to be true, but reality is a bitch and it can bite you anywhere. so, we need to focus on getting stronger, immunizing oneself socially, and not facing the ire of usa for next 50 yrs at a minimum.

  73. zubair and co, alt fact checker have been nominated for nobel prize for peace. After unleashing jihadi violence through partial cut video.

    Modiji is indeed incredibly kind to these western interventionists. Or too dumb to do anything much about such things.

  74. https://americankahani.com/perspectives/american-durga-puja-big-money-class-and-caste-corrupt-an-inclusive-community-festival/

    ‘Sadly, they also flourish as exclusive pockets of classist representations of the once sarbojonin festival that are now mired in tacky maintenance of class. In many of these celebrations that occur in enclosed spaces of schools or auditoriums, people must wear color-coded bands, denoting higher registration fees than others that would enable them access to a lavish dinner and secure a seat to the entertainment program for the evening.

    Literally, a spiritually auspicious occasion is turned into a fetishistic bodily marker of status and wealth! Not just limiting access and hierarchizing Bengali circles, the way these diasporic Durga Pujas are organized, they also bar possibilities of any intercultural/faith dialogue and interaction beyond a certain class of Bengalis in America. While in India, Durga Puja means feasting and celebration for all, caste bias is implicit in diaspora celebrations also as it is a well-known fact that it is primarily upper caste Indians who have ‘made it’ abroad. ‘

    1. This is some next level historical revisionism

      Rajaraja is around 1100 CE. Built one of the largest temples (Brihadisvara) and then put a pic of him and his guru in the temple.

      You can make a better claim that no Hinduism during Mahajanpada period (6th century BCE). No one will ofc.

      1. @Sumit
        I think it’s just invoking a semantic argument that not only was RRC not hindu, neither were gurjara-pratiharas. Hindu identity was inchoate in that period, even if the elements were perhaps all there.

        1. By this logic one could argue then that the Hindu identity was inchoate till the rise of Hindutva?

          Makes more sense to view it as a evolving set of traditions with historical continuity and lineage imo.

        2. U guys are debating as if there is some merit in these ‘Cholas are Hindus or not’ arguments. LOL

          Its not really about enquiry. Its about politics.

    2. if bjp gets two more terms of clear mandates in centre with dmk having no role to play will make all dravidians hopping mad hopeless cases.
      i somehow feel that these extreme posturing is for seeking attention, which they are not getting as of now and in near future.

    1. Just a matter of time. The new army chief might not be a predisposed to current regime as Bajwa is.

      Plus he might want to flow with how the winds are blowing, the the wind is certainly blowing Imran’s way.

    1. I am not Muslim but shabbir ally is very progressive for a Muslim scholar. (On stuff like LGBTQ+, slavery, Hindus / Buddhists, Shariah law, stoning, apostasy etc)

      He is Guyanese Canadian and popular among some in the west. So quite atypical and not representative or average religious Muslim view globally.

      Overall a positive outcome of the Woke x Muslim collab.

  75. shit has hit the fan due to the conversion oaths of the neo buddhists while converting in delhi. now how this will be confronted by hindu right needs to be seen. public abuse of hindu gods is not acceptable.

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