Since it was mined in India, and stayed in India, it should be returned to India. But then the British museum would be empty if they started returning the artifacts they plundered.
India does this nautanki for a lot of Arab kings too.
Roy
1 year ago
The Queen’s demise has triggered British empire derangement syndrome among Indians and Africans on social media. They denounce the Queen in the Queen’s English.
phyecho1
1 year ago
I dont go this often but I am pissed off, bitch is dead, long live the bastard.
real reason is because she was a monarch who oversaw the colonial regime of which she is singularly a beneficiary. That is enough of a reason , after all, if they go about claiming civilizing India, it is more than fair to call them as such.
India gained Independence in 1947, Queen Elizabeth became Queen in 1952 – five years after. She was Queen during Decolonization period.
Racelearner
1 year ago
Some queries about South Asian ancestry for Razib:
—How much Anatolian/Anatolia and CHG ancestry do South Asians have, particularly in the North and Northwest? I know the IVC component has Anatolia in it, what about other ancestral components?
—How much BMAC ancestry do South Asians have?
Can someone breakdown the math here:
The Harappa Ancestry Project has a “ South Indian” component, which is apparently 50% West Eurasian and 50% East Eurasian, or ASI. Initially people thought the ASI was fully East Eurasian.
Now I realize that since then, we have further refined ASI into AASI and Iran-related ancestry, the question is, what ratio is this ancestry present in?
—Is ASI 33% West Eurasian and 66% AASI? Or is it 30% West Eurasian and 70% AASI? I’ve heard both numbers quoted and wanted to confirm.
—Finally, I’ve read that AASI, particularly in the NW, has residual West Eurasian affinity as well, from ANE admixture. It also lies on/close to the West Eurasian boundary. Do we know anything about this in terms of raw numbers? What % of AASI is W. Eurasian?
So if someone starts out with 40% South Indian, they would be 20% ASI, of which 33% is West Eurasian, so they would be around 13.4% AASI or East Eurasian, and 86.6% West Eurasian.
—Is this correct? Or does the West Eurasian fraction of the South Indian score vary? What about ASI? Is it always 30-33% West Eurasian/Iran-related?
If anyone has input, please chime in. Thanks all.
Racelearner
1 year ago
Are NW South Asians like the Kambojas and Rors, Jaats, Jats, Arain, Khatri/Aroras and certain Sindhis West Eurasian peoples?
Going by PCA, Oracles and admixture, it certainly seems like they are. They look to be as West Eurasian as Pashtuns/Pakhtuns and Kho/Chitrali people.
This means they are all in the same 85-90% West Eurasian range, with the only difference being the % of Steppe, BMAC, Iran and AASI/E. Asian combo.
Does this mean proper South Asia ends with UP Brahmins? It certainly seems like these NW tribes are best described as SouthCentral Asians as opposed to South Asians, as they not only originate from Central Asia, but have also retained their West Eurasian character/race as well. And since West Eurasians are intrusive to South Asia, these tribes are the personification of that intrusiveness physically and genetically.
Generally, populations west of the Indus River should be termed as West Eurasians.
Typically, from the DNA results (HarrappaWorld) I’ve seen, the most western-shifted South Asians are equal to the most eastern-shifted South Central Asians (Iranics and some Dardics).
That makes no sense. Geography doesn’t determine West Eurasian-ness. Besides, these NW South Asian populations are migrants from west of the Indus River/Central and Southwest Asia to begin with, and Turkic and Mongol migrations and the Arab expansion pushed them towards NW South Asia. It’s just that some stayed behind in Afghanistan/Pakistan, which is also South Asian.
Pakistan as a whole can never be considered West Eurasian, and neither can Afghanistan. Half of Afghanistan is not West Eurasian because of the huge Hazara/Uzbek/Turkic/Mixed Tajik influenced population present there. The vast majority of Pashtuns live in Pakistan as well, and so do Baloch and Brahui.
Nearly all the Central Asian countries are not West Eurasian, and there are plenty of people in Southwest Asia, like in Southern/Eastern Iran, Gulf countries, Turkey, Azerbaijan, the Levant, Northern Africa and the Arab peninsula that are not West Eurasian due to excess ENA or SSA admixture. There are even entire population groups in the Caucasus and Russia and NE and Eastern Europe that are heavily East Eurasian influenced/mixed to the point where they are no longer West Eurasian either.
But NW South Asian groups like the ones outlined above are definitely West Eurasian phenotypically and genetically— both on PCA, admixture and Oracles. They all have the same amount of AASI/ENA, within the same range and SD: 85-90%.
I’ve seen the admixture breakdown for Kambojas and Khatris/Aroras/Sindhis, Jat Sikhs, Rors, Jaat Hindus, and Arains, and all of these tribes cluster with Pashtuns and Kho people and Kalash, including Northern/Eastern/Southern Pashtuns. They are also equally as West Eurasian as these groups in admixture and Oracles.
Therefore, within South Asia, Pashtuns/Pakhtuns/Kho/Chitrali and Jaat/Ror/Kamboja/Khatri/Sindhi/Arain/Kalash are all within the same West Eurasian cluster. The maps above show this as well.
Quick G25 run using Davidski’s model on the populations displayed on Araingang’s map. Unfortunately, only the publicly available averages were used, as I don’t have all the same coordinates. https://t.co/wjANMsJsJ0pic.twitter.com/hwsjs63RZM— Amadeus (@ElShujinko) July 12, 2022
SisBA2 is ~25% AASI. Han is either noise (for Jaats) or present at minor amounts (for Pashtuns/Kho/Chitralis). Adding up AASI and Han, along with any minor ENA in Anatolia gives the same 85-90% range for all aforementioned NW South Asian populations, from Jaats/Jats to the Pashtuns, Kambojas and others.
Racelearner
1 year ago
Just a note on AASI:
It seems that there are different ‘strains’ of AASI in South Asia/India, with at least three or four different localized variants of it in the subcontinent, at least going by what I’ve read.
The Southern AASI strain best models South Indians and tribals and harbors some additional Hohabinhian and actual Onge like admixture that is completely absent in the NW and Northern AASI strains. This is according to the admixture model.
There also seems to be an Eastern AASI strain that harbors some Austroasiatic and SE Asian type admixture which is absent among NW and Northern AASI.
Finally, the NW AASI strain is the only one shared with West Eurasians. It also appears to have a different phenotype from the other AASI strains, at least based on the appearance of AASI heavy indigenes in the NW region of South Asia.
This means AASI has huge diversity in phenotype and genotype within South Asia and mixing with a different AASI strain will have a big impact on phenotype. Perhaps why South Indian Brahmins (and indeed all South Indians) have a distinctive look that other Brahmins lack and South Asians lack. Also why Bengalis/East Indians tend to be distinctive as well.
AASI also has zero relationship to Onge/Andamanese people, and this is true for all strains of AASI. Tibetans and certain SE Asians are far closer to Onge than AASI. Only the Southern AASI strain has some extra admixture from an Onge like source, but it isn’t directly derived from it fully.
Britain went from from a creditor nation to a debtor nation. Was it because of corruption, mismanagement and privatization.
Privatization is white washed, rebranded corruption.
Stealing public assets into private pockets.
Now to corruption and mismanagement in the UK.
The UK amassed huge wealth stealing from the colonies. Worse they were drug dealers in a huge scale. eg Opium wars, where US, UK forced China to buy Opium in exchange for their industrialized goods. Yes, China was more industrialized than UK in the past. They made China a country of drug addicts and Chinas society collapsed. China only recovered in the 70’s and is now a world power leaving UK in the dust.
For corruption and mismanagement look no further than COVID deaths. Despite colossal amounts of money spent there were 188,242 deaths (2,742/1M) compared to Sri Lankas 16.700 deaths (773/1M). The beauty is how the corruption and mismanagement is papered over, by calling it privatization (the same in US). Heads should roll for the number of deaths essentially a war crime but the uK population is gullible and bamboozled.
Despite all the wealth obtained by rape and pillage of the colonies the UK is in debt 2,233 billion (103.7% of GDP). 27% of UK debt was overseas-owned, and China was the largest single country in that figure. That suggests that China might own about 15% of UK debt — so about 267 billion.
Many of its iconic cars have been sold. eg Jaguar Land Rover (India), MG (china), Mini and Rolls-Royce (Germany/BMW), Bentley (Germany/VW). Its a good possibility the German acquisitions too will need to be sold with the energy shortage and economic collapse. Probably to China or even Russia they are both awash in money. The wheel turns, the wealth obtained by rape and pillage is returning to the East.
.
NOTE: not a reflection on the Queen. She was a titular head and not a driver of policy.
Who comes up with these stupid ideas.
The first question that should be asked is the price cap only on Russian Oil.
Here is a scenario Russia does not export at or below price cap to EU. That shortfall will need to be covered, say from mid east oil. Russia sells to mid east above price cap. Mid east sells above price cap+markup+transportation (compared to pipe line delivery).
Whats even more stupider is that EU did not want long term contracts for gas and oil. On advice from US/Wall Street they only wanted on oil/gas on spot price.
Recent HDI rankings were released and India dropped from a value of 0.645 to 0.633 and ranks at 132. I believe a significant cause is the decline in life expectancy. An average Indian will now only live for 67.2 years, 3 years less than an Iraqi, almost 5 years less than a Bangladeshi, and almost 10 years less than a Sri Lankan on average.
As I was going through the rankings, one more interesting tidbit is the mean years of schooling in India- which is just 6.7 years, lower than Palestine, Lebanon or any of the war torn countries. It’s even lower than Iraq which has mean school years of 7.9.
This is just decades and decades of neglect for providing even the most basic services. Really puts in perspective all the hoopla and chest thumping about being the 5th biggest economy.
it would be great if people held the union government accountable for such abysmal results. large swathes of india are worse than the poorest subsaharan african countries and war-torn countries.
but the sycophants will always come up with excuses. it’s all manmohan singh’s fault, it will take a while to recover! if that fails, it’s all nehru’s fault, hindoo rate of growth, grr! and if that fails, then it’s aurangzeb’s fault.
phyecho1
1 year ago
I want to be on record, i was the only one on this site who wondered whether ukraine was not going easily for russia, i did think it could be an ambush. but then again, the peer pressure in here got me to think russia would win for sure. I blame you all in here.
phyecho1
1 year ago
“I see perhaps US expected russia to do this and planned and prepared ukraine in laying a trap in frustrating russia…”
“I still consider this as advantage russia. Given their army and capabilities as better overall. But I doubt whether they have clear goals on what to achieve and wonder whether their soldiers are prepared to being ruthless.
But I now see this as russia committed itself to this completely. It is always better to find a face saver for all sides. Also, I find ukraine really dumb for accepting these risks.”
“I remember new democracy metrics have been created, even for america in 1940’s are considered as not democracy. Only democracy that is valid according to them is liberal democracy. Regime change wars/ demography change wars. Constant conflict by col peters in 1997 has come true. Liberal imperialism. Same with russia. In fact now that I see, here is how i join the dots.
From 2003 onwards America calculated (they have supercomputers to calculate different scenarios. In fact one of their machines predicted charan singh to become pm of India). Not that they give absolute correct prediction. But they must have seen that with rising china, in about 50 yrs china would become what it is today, simple compound interest will tell you that. Same with India, in 50 yrs, India probably will hit 16 trillion dollar economy. Given this scenarios, they needed to remove autocratic governments because china by itself has zero role in world, but with enough chess pieces on the board, china can cause some harm. So, perhaps, this was the reason why america went about getting rid of saddam, gadafi, and have been trying regime change wars in russia, and trying to either facilitate demographic change in India or regime change in India. Bcos in about another 50 yrs, world might get a lot more complicated. I just never understood america wasting away its resoures in the naughts, libya, iraq etc and now even russia, there is a thread on twitter that points to how every tom dick and harry saw ukraine joining nato would lead to war with russia. So, why do it?. Because russia is a very important piece in geostrategic chess board and in future, china might use it, unless, they get rid off it or diminish it.?
For some reason, I feel I have hit upon a deep truth about america. Perhaps they have been playing on the future 50 yrs geostrategic board ?. After all, that is what their strategic literature always focusses on future scenarios. Also, america is now calling the bluff on nukes, why this chutzpah? . Why does it not respect others security interests/ balance of power?. Liberal internationalism is aggressive,bold, is time running out for powr differnce us engoyed?”
Third paragraph was my hottest take and an inspired one. I am forced to admit, liberal internationalism is bold. I expect a serious change now only after 2100. It is not enough to be a super power, one needs to have big buffers before one takes on US led world.
Doubt anyone is thinking this hard at the State Department. All the Kagans and Frums are just midwits focusing on basic personal advancement.
Though, there once were genuinely smart and virtuous people running US foreign policy. But that ended with the generation that won US, the Second World War. America until then was a rising power, like China or India today, competing against the established European powers. To rise, you need smart people. But since 1945, America has been on easy mode. It’s the top dog. That results in a State Department full of Kagans rather than Kennans.
Perhaps, the experience of America can serve as a warning to China/India/Russia who themselves want to reach the top. Once you reach the top, it’s all downhill.
some of the many factors and cold hard reality you are not thinking about
a) the biggest, the US is running on debt with ever increasing trade deficits.
Not sustainable as US is a very complex society needing ever increasing inputs.
b) The US is no longer a manufacturing country, specially needs.
Heck, no one needs their overpriced military stuff either.
The only countries that buy are those that think there is a guarantee.
i.e. That is the US will step in in a conflict (eg Taiwan)
facebook, google are wants not needs for a tiny proportion of worlds population.
c) Russia is awash in natural resources over and above its needs.
It has not even tapped its Siberian/Arctic resources either.
eg. Oil, gas and Uranium absolute needs for everyone
Yeah, the US would love to break up Russia into small states and get at their goodies, i.e. natural resources.
d) The Chinese Russian nexus means China get resources to continue be the foremost manufacturing producer for the world.
In contrast, Europe is cutting its foot by sanctioning cheap Russian energy.
That means manufacturing is either going to very expensive and/or go out of business. There is only so many months/years they can be bailed out by the govts.
Keep in mind, America also has a lot of natural resources comparable to Russia. And if you include Canada, which for all practical purposes is just a state of the US, then the country is mostly self-sufficient with regards to resources. And there is a large faction of the North American population that is willing to invest in and do the dirty work of extracting those resources if only allowed by the government. The Shale Revolution of 2010s comes to mind.
Europe on the other hand is a lost case, I agree. I genuinly do not understand these people. They seem to think that its their current moral “superiority” that results in their wealth. Both the government and the people are nuts.
Whats gonna happen, I think is that the remaining manufacturing in Europe will move to America where energy is much cheaper. Moving to China or heck even other parts of Asia is out of question. That era is of globalization is over. US has drawn the line and all the Western capital will stay increasingly stay within the region.
I agree with what you’re saying asides from what HJ has touched upon, but the US is no slouch in manufacturing. It’s second in the world in manufacturing output despite having a billion less people than China.
well, empirical evidence suggests, they are thinking this hard. left afhanistan to bait putin into ukraine. trained ukraine troops for ambush. With putin old and a catastrophe in war with ukraine, his legacy will be tarnished, and he will be too old/sick(i hear cancer) to change it. And with sanctions on russia, it creates perfect breeding ground for a color revolution. China needs to make sure this does not happen. But that would mean it has to invest in russia. US recently gave 450 million dollars for f 16 in pakistan under guise of fighting terrorism leaving many experts scratching heads. Clearly, these f16s are meant to bolster pak vs India. America sees all these as frenemies, and wants to use each of these to check the others. A theory I read from some foreign policy expert. China uses russia to keep europe occupied, US uses India to keep china occupied, china and us use pak to keep India occupied. essentially, all non US powers are left in a mexican stand off with each other and america keeps suppling arms.
To @sbarrkum , I just dont see US declining. As pointed out, they do have natural resources and can also tap into gulf country or lift bans on venezuela and reach agreement there. saudis also are people they can depend on for now. Their scientific/technology/economy/military class in number one. I now see wokeism as useful export by USA to disorient other countries, there is backfire as well but it will hurt USA much less than other countries. Anyone who thinks nyt or other news agencies in usa work independently of us intel/ govt are lying to themselves.
“Spy Schools: How the CIA, FBI, and Foreign Intelligence Secretly Exploit America’s Universities ”
did not read the book, but it answers that usa and other intelligence agencies use universities to recruit people. They even offer seats in universities to children of defectors and spies as a tactic to recruit them.
Today, one has to give credit to usa where they did outthink their opponents. The whole ukraine thing had my spider tingle go off, it was obvious that after afghanistan withdrawal, one should expect some initiative from either china or russia, of which putin leading russia would have been an ideal candidate to set an ambush for. putin took his chance( should have worked on a face saving deal instead perhaps). I am confident that US is as terrifying as the results have shown over past 100 yrs. They did not lose their ability to think things through, though have been lazy at times or indiscriminate.
to sumit, to differentiate malice/stupidity might be confusing, but luck and competence are easy to differentiate. luck is sporadic, it doesnt guarantees victory unless everything else is put in place. incompetent people cannot get that lucky for that long.
Hey Razib and other folks, I hope you’ll answer some questions I have.
Q: Yamnaya is 50-55% EHG and 45-50% CHG/Iran_Chl related; while, EHG in Russian Steppe had a quarter of CHG ancestry. So, does Yamnaya have more CHG type ancestry than EHG ancestry in total if CHG in EHG is also taken into account or did the CHG type ancestry get diluted in EHG before forming Yamnaya with CHG/Iran_Chl?
Q. Were battle axe culture in Scandinavia and bell beaker culture in the UK similar in terms of pigmentations?
Q. Did a ANE rich population (60%+) ever live in South Asia?
Q. Did Y-DNA haplogroup R2 in Iran_hg came from ANE?
Munneswaram
Munneswaram, along with Koneswaram (Trincomalee), Naguleswaram (Keerimalai), Thiruketheeshwaram (Mannar), forms the five ancient temples (Ishwarams) dedicated to Shiva in the region including Sri Lanka.
The Kali temple is also popular with Buddhists, who frequent the complex. Post-19th century, most of the devotees of all temples in the complex belong to the majority Sinhala Buddhist ethnic group; the temples, excluding the Ayyanayake and the Buddhist temple, are administered by families belonging to the minority Hindu Tamils.
The Kali temple is a popular sorcery and cursing shrine associated with animal sacrifices and spirit possession. Spirit possession of devotees was noted by the Jesuit priests who left behind records of it in the 16th century.
Devotees approaching the Goddess The music is Kaavadi, the same genre as in cricket matches and parties (called Papare at cricket matches)
These are paid dancers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YqdHls8Ydw
The main act, the businessman/(or thug) approaching with wife (in green blouse)
Note: Sinhalese dont do serious vows like body piercing.
To me this whole thing looks like they are at a party/disco. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zovnz4PmdLg
I posted this to show no Hindu or Tamil antipathy in SL
Anti separatism no question.
When searching for Kavadi was surprised at the number of Kali Temples all over SL.
And then you get kavadi music at cricket matches.
Then its called Papare.
The two links below are from the school big matches.
I went to one of the schools.
We start early, for me first big match was grade 6 age 11.
Grade 9, age 14 get drunk and enjoy the Papare.
As the end of the day approaches, the music intensifies and most are drunk.
By this time of the day, I’ll be the guy without a shirt.
Three days of non stop drinking. Dont have the energy any longer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrhvOI6YTYQ&t=73s
Note the Sinhalese Kavadi/Papare is a mixture of the original Hindu Kavadi with high pitched sax like instruments and Portuguese funeral/catholic processions with trumpets (like big bands). Trust the Sinhalese to take both and make into fun music.
No. It’s Gujaratis screwing Indian taxpayers outside Gujarat. The amount of taxpayer funds spent on the Ahmedabad bullet train, Patel statue and now this is obscene.
Patel statue was dumb but 90% state government, 4% private. 6% centre.
Mumbai-Ahmedabad HSR is funded by a very low interest INR denominated (money printer go burr) loan from Japanese Gov and is probably first of many HSR systems in various stages of construction.
That’s what I don’t get. If a state generates enough money, then they can put a statue in every nook and corner. Tamil Nadu produces enough to give out color televisions and grinders to its populace. It also gives out scooty to girls , while poorer Bihar is giving out cycles.
No body bats an eye lid when Delhi metro opened essentially from equal center and state resources even though Delhi as a state had enough money to bankroll it.
Nobody knows the total amount contributed by PSU’s to the construction of the Patel statue. The Ahmedabad bullet train is funded by an 6,000 crore loan from Japan but it has to be paid back. Is the state of Gujarat or the Centre going to pay back the loan? The godi media gives the impression the bullet train will be built with free money from Japan.
Data doesn’t back up your points. But ok, stay mad. Maybe vote Congress too. They will save you. Or better yet AAP. Capital investment= bad. Constant freebies, regardless of economic status= good.
the sad part of the Gujarat bias is that Modi has picked a terrible Gujarati architect for all his big projects. Central Vista, Kashi Corridor come to mind. The latter is so poorly done, the columns and pillars look like a very cheap imitation of Graeco-Roman architecture.
Lol sounds like more of a bad taste in architects. There are great Gujarati ones too. Not saying there isn’t Gujarati bias (there is) but the main driver seems of had architecture seems more bad taste than ethnic preference, unless one were to believe that all Gujarati architects suck and therefore by virtue of picking one, the projects would all suck.
This would be like Kennedy picking a Catholic architect who happened to suck and then blaming it on mostly the fact that he picked a catholic. The assertion is kind of dick itself, without acknowledging the full context. It is literally bigoted because it paints an entire group of people with one broad brush.
lol yea that was a reach! but still. such bad aesthetics, ugh.
brown
1 year ago
with reference to local congress arranging meeting with a rabid anti hindu christian padre:
1) it appears now that congress has joined the battle for christian votes in tamilnadu.
2) the elite christians of kerala appear not too confrontational with bjp. in absence of an elite christian group in tamilnadu, the fight for their votes is between dmk and congress. are nadar christians considered elite in tamilnadu?
3) hindus need a so called ‘standard hindu narrative’ vis-a vis christianity and islam.
Ugra
1 year ago
News on India’s EV revolution –
– Ather Energy sold 50000 EV scooters cumulatively at the end of August. The first 10K took 35 months. The last 10K took 2 months! This IIT Madras startup (and Bengaluru HQ’ed) is going places…
– KPIT Technologies of Pune, a Tier 1 supplier to Global EV companies in the area of software defined automobiles, has patented its sodium-ion battery and is looking for prototype production. Sodium-Ion is 40-50% cheaper than a Lithium ion battery.
– Faradion, the leader in research for sodium-ion batteries, has been acquired by Ambani (Reliance Industries) who is trying to enter battery production.
– The newly appointed Director-General of CSIR is Dr. Kalaiselvi who is a specialist in fundamental battery research.
There you have it……perfect indicators of a growing ecosystem by both government and private initiatives. If things come to fruition, we should see a complete exit of ICE engines from the 2-wheeler space in the next 10 years.
The last great technological revolution in India was the mobile telecom (scams included). We put a phone/internet/digital money in almost every Indian’s hand in just 15 years.
Sumit
1 year ago
Seems some people are really trying to create a Hindutva boogeyman in the West.
Someone is distributing a clearly fake death threat being circulated as being attributed to a hindutva supporter.
The whole thing is comically fake to anyone familiar with how hindutva ppl talk / what memes they care about. For eg. they wouldn’t say it has “defamed Hindutva ideology” would just say it has insulted the “goddess Kali / Hinduism”.
This is scary and disgusting. On the one hand, it’s so poorly done that hopefully the record will be set straight. On the other hand, the anti-Hindu rhetoric has worked and many non-Hindus seem to be falling for this in r/ontario.
Pak nationalists and Khalistani element of Sikh diaspora is WAY better at propaganda. Their youth are WAY more loyal to their causes, even in 2nd and 3rd gen. Deracination is way more an Indian Hindu diaspora thing. Wokeness is going to screw Hindu Indian diaspora.
Look at forums like reddit. You see a ton of activity from aforementioned groups. They are WAY more into homeland politics and super engaged. So they disproportionately have an impact on the narrative in the West.
What is considered “uncle stuff” for most of the youth in Hindu community is considered part of the “woke activist” package in the others. The mobilization at the ground level is wild. It is crazy to gangs of 2nd 3rd gen Punjabis brag about “Jatt” and vandalize Gandhi statues. You can tell how their upbringing didn’t stamp put the anti social behavior that led to their gang proclivities, yet somehow maintained the ethno supremacy and religious hate. That is some powerful voodoo.
I mean look at the recent Fremont Taco Bell incident. It is an embodiment of what is going on. Looking at the location of this crap, I have a pretty good sense of the type of forces that are behind this BS. Biradri ethonosupremacy may be in check in India and Pak from other forces. But it runs the show in inter desi Canadian politics and some regions of NorCal. Add in some of the Christian activism missionary politics with vested Pak nationalist interest and you get a pretty powerful force to malign the Hindu anglophone diaspora.
Thought experiment: Would India have turned out differently if it had remained a symbolic constitutional monarchy rather than becoming a republic when it gained independence from England?
Given the negligible formal power of a constitutional monarchy, you wouldn’t think so, but I’m not convinced that the symbolism wouldn’t have caused some changes.
Alternatively, what if it had stayed a constitutional monarchy, but with an Indian monarch rather than a British one?
Roy
1 year ago
The Rise and Fall of Imran Khan
The saga of the Pakistani prime minister is a testament to the challenges populist reformers face when they gain political power.
Long time reader maybe my 1st post(unless I commented 3 years back, maybe I did)
I don’t think the samples that HarappaWorld has or whatever represents most Bengali Brahmins. I’ve been scrolling through Google Images browsing through different “Chatterjees” and “Mukherjees” both of which are as you know Kulin Bengali Brahmin names and honestly I’ve come to the conclusion that yes, some of them do have less Mong but a very significant percentage of them have more Mong than me, someone who has 16% Mongoloid(NE Asian+SE Asian+Siberian). I’ve been thought to be Mestizo or Nepali in the past too so I guess some do see the Mongoloid admixture in me. Anyways, yeah a lot of the Bengali Brahmins look Asiatic/Mongoloid af and I find it hard to believe that all of them have around 5% Mong LOL that is way too little, wayyyy too much of an exaggeration. They’re either similar to me or MORE in terms of Mong.
Some people might say phenotype isn’t genotype but seriously it is. You can’t use exceptions to say that a rule doesn’t apply lol your phenotype IS your genotype, ofc ur gonna get exceptions in a population of 8 billion, doesn’t mean it changes anything. 5% Mong is CERTAINLY not enough to sway someone’s appearance that much, in such a large number of people. There’s just not enough samples.
Also I dunno if Mr. Razib cares about this dna stuff much these days but my ancestral origins on both sides are in Rangpur Division, specifically in a district called Dinajpur. In the past it was part of Kamrup and Kamata Kingdom and then the Mughals in 1686 but I’ve only seen one result from that part of Bangladesh before and incidentally enough that person had similar results to mine lol and I’m talking about HarappaWorld too. I was actually talking to this Bengali Brahmin dude on Reddit a while back cuz he got 12% EHG on IllustrativeDNA while I got 13.6% and it was weird to me.
I also get like 19.4% Turkic+Mongol on the Turkic k11 calculator which is insane and corrobarates what my parents have told me.
Also on Vahaduo my sample can be modelled as this with scaled G25coordinates and samples with a distance of 2.0451
IND_Roopkund_A: 76.4
KAZ_Karakhanid: 13.4
Roopkund C: 6.6
KAZ_Karluk: 3.6
13.4+3.6= 17% Turkic
Even with a 2 way model with IND_Roopkund_A and KAZ_Karluk I get a distance of 2.4373 which it itself pretty close
IND_Roopkund_A: 72.4
KAZ_Karluk: 27.6
So yeah guess my parents weren’t lying lol pretty surprising stuff. I’m Bengali btw Razib pls talk more about Bengali genetics/genealogy/ancestry your posts on that stuff were amazing
Pencil
1 year ago
Aw man why was I comment moderated, there were no bad words or anything breaking the rules 🙁
Pencil
1 year ago
yeah so pretty much I don’t think the Bengali Brahmin samples on HarappaWorld and stuff don’t reflect the diversity of the population. Been scrolling through google images and seeing many Chatterjees and Mukherjees etc and yes there are some who do look more North than Bengali but quite a significant amount look regular Bengali or even a more Mongoloid-enriched Bengali. No way they would have 5% or less Mong admix tbh people say phenotype isn’t genotype but you can’t have phenotype without genotype and exceptions to a rule doesn’t mean the rule is invalid or doesn’t apply, everything has an exception and you will always get outliers in a population of 8+ billion people. I don’t buy that that these guys and girls who look straight up more Asiatic than me and other Bengalis have low amounts of Mong, there are levels to this, it’s just not plausible. There just isn’t enough samples for Bengali Brahmins is all.
I’m a Bengali with ancestral origins from Dinajpur, which is in Rangpur Bangladesh (North Bengal) and the only other Harappaworld result I’ve seen from there was actually quite similar to mine lmao it was an HRP0 something I forget. Region was part of Kamarupa and Kamata Kingdom etc in the past and then the Mughals in 1686. My three closest populations were Bengalis, Bengali Brahmins and Biharis so clearly I’ve got a bit of a point.
My result lol I got like 17% Mong which is like much higher than the 13% that regular Bengalis get hahahaha but the other Rangpur result had an 18% number as well. He also got like 4% Caucasian and I got 6% which is strange cuz Bengalis get 0% or 1%
Yeah Mamata Banerjee is just one of many examples of what I was talking about. I’m not Bengali Brahmin btw fyi don’t know if I confused you all but I was talking about myself being a standard Bengali dude, a non-Kulin Brahmin person/person with that ancestry.
Would you mind posting your picture so we can compare and see if your genotype matches your phenotype? Would be interesting to compare to other Bengali Brahmins, and see if higher Mongoloid percentages affect the phenotype greatly.
I have seen Bengali Brahmins who looked like North/Central Indians, both Bihari Brahmins, Bhumihars and even some that look similar to some UP Brahmins, so there must be a lot of diversity in their phenotype based on how much AASI/East/SE Asian admixture they have. On average though, I believe they are as West Eurasian as Iyers.
I’m a regular Bengali, I’m not of Kulin brahmin heritage as I mentioned in the comment.
I’m thinking about posting a picture or two but I need to find a site that I can delete from. Maybe I’ll just accept using IMGUR but I dont like how they now make you give them your phone number
Sri Lanka wins Asian Netball Championship for 2nd year running.
Probably thanks to evergreen, 2.06m (6′ 9″) -tall goal shooter Tharjini Sivalingam. She is retiring this year as she is turning 45, Wonder how SL will do without her.
Tharjini Sivalingam another Sri Lankan Tamil doing SL proud.
she has been recognized as one of the most successful shooters of all time and often regarded as the tallest netball player ever. She is the most capped international netball player to represent Sri Lanka.
She also faced many hardships in her childhood as she grew up in warzone.
she holds a degree in Economics from the Eastern University in Batticaloa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tharjini_Sivalingam
Brown on Brown crime. Unless a NW South Asian was involved. Then it’s Brown on Olive/White-adjacent crime. Or unless a Mongoloid admixed ethnicity was involved (Nepali and Himachali, Assamese Hindus) then it’s Brown on Yellow crime. Or maybe both parties involved were Yellow, or Olive or even White? For a Pan-Brown poster you sure seem to bring up a lot of unnecessary past incidents. The truth is there is no such thing as pan Brown unity. NW South Asians (Afghan, Pakistani and NW Indian) are White on arrival in the USA. Just like NE Indians and Nepalis and many Bengalis and Hill state Indians and Turkic Afghans and Pakis are Asian (specifically East Asian) on arrival in the USA. And just like most Gujjus are like non-White Latinos and Hispanics on arrival in the USA. And just like some Gujjus and South and East Indians and more generally, Dravidians, are “Indian” and /or mixed Black Latinos on arrival in the USA. Water finds it own level. And so does biologically determined race, which is a reflection of your DNA. No point wasting time trying to foist an artificial brown identity upon 2 Billion plus people where there is no such thing to begin with.
Even the US Census Bureau specifically states that the term “Asian Indian” on the US census race classification form is “not a meaningful description of racial ancestral or ethnic heritage and does not have any biological or scientific meaning”.
Not only that, but multiple research papers and studies conducted by the US Census Bureau and other organizations in the US including the FBI, have all come to the same conclusion: that “Asian Indian” is not a race or an ethnic group and that South Asians are free to self identify as the racial and ethnic group that best fits their ancestry and race. We all know that it was Gujaratis that sought to change the racial classification of South Asians from “White” which is what it used to be in 1970, to “Asian Indian“ in an attempt to get low interest SBA loans from the Reagan administration.
Through their efforts and petitioning, after 10 Long years, they successfully managed to create a contrived race classification box on the US census for their own selfish needs in 1980, as is typical for the Gujarati mindset. They didn’t care a tiny bit for the interests of other South Asians, be they East Asian or SE Asian, or Dravidian or Caucasian racially.
What’s even more curious is the fact that they refused to co-opt the already existing categories for race in the US census. They could’ve easily chosen to fit in as non-white Latinos/Hispanics. Because that is what they look like by and large, and all they have to do is adopt new names, something most already do by anglicizing it in subsequent generations. They already follow American culture or are supposed to and religion is a non-issue in the United States. After all, being Latino/Hispanic is about following a particular culture. And that culture is very mutable in the United States, so as long as you look like you can pass for Latino and you have a particular name that fits, shit you don’t even need a Latino name, then that’s what you are racially and scientifically.
My theory is that they were ashamed to be put in the same category as Latinos, as perhaps they look down upon them because they tend to be of a different socioeconomic class typically. Perhaps they forgot about the fact that there are also white Latinos and Hispanics, both in their own subcontinent and in Latin America. So Kal Penn AKA Kalpen Modi is just a non-white Latino by a different name. If he hadn’t sold himself as a stereotypical Indian by starring in movies where a south Indian surname is used to represent all South Asians I guarantee you no one would’ve ever thought he was Indian. I’m sure you also look like a typical non-white Latino, likely an indigenous or mestizo Latino as that is what 90% of Gujaratis are. Harnizo is unlikely but still possible, like Priti Patel or Amisha Patel and Aditya Pancholi. And Castizo like Mahesh Bhatt is very unlikely unless you are a Gujarati Brahmin or other High Caste. No Criollos in Gujarat except Parsis like Rohinton Patel, DDS, and merchant Khatris, who are not native to Gujarat. Besides, if you were a Castizo or a Criolo you wouldn’t be so complexed about your identity, so I have my money on the fact that your mestizo; Harnizo would be very unlikely but still somewhat possible.
BTW look up “Parag Khanna TED talk Asia” and watch his TED talk. He explains how Indian is a menangless term and how we are all different from each other and mixed with different things. No one thinks he looks Indian, even in India, forget about the US. He took a DNA test and was 83% West Eurasian or Caucasian. That makes him a castizo genetically and he looks like one too. In the US he fits in perfectly as a Castizo American who can even be white passing.
Even Nikki Haley who is a Castizo, and Preet Bharara, who is also a Castizo are considered white in the US by other white people. Whereas Nirav Tolia is considered a non-white Hispanic/Latino who insists upon being “Indian” when in reality he’s no longer Indian as that is nothing but a nationality and the Indian government will not come and save his ass when he is moored on an island And will refuse to consider him an Indian. It’s pathetic that he sticks to that identity when in reality he is now just a non-white Hispanic American— that is the true biologic and legal and scientific reality of his identity and he better get used to it. It’s like a non-white indigenous American coming to the US and having children and then telling his own children that they are not Hispanic American but Mexican American. Just complete nonsense.
LMAO! The concept of race is mostly meaningless in modern India.
Differences in India are along the religion/caste axis – which broadly fits under the “culture” umbrella.
Most of this race and ancestry schizo is courtesy Indian-Americans who feel lost without being grouped.
One of the funniest stories is of this Upper Caste Northwestern Indian. He may have thought he too was white on arrival, but perhaps not so much upon deportation.
The guy tries to argue that he’s actually white, and therefore eligible for citizenship. They say, among other things…
– he did not meet the common sense definition of White
and
“The eligibility of this applicant for citizenship is based on the sole fact that he is of high caste Hindu stock, born in village Taragarh Talawa, Amritsar district, Punjab, one of the extreme north western districts of India, and classified by certain scientific authorities as of the Caucasian or Aryan race … In the Punjab and Rajputana, while the invaders seem to have met with more success in the effort to preserve their racial purity, intermarriages did occur producing an intermingling of the two and destroying to a greater or less degree the purity of the “Aryan” blood. The rules of caste, while calculated to prevent this intermixture, seem not to have been entirely successful … the given group cannot be properly assigned to any of the enumerated grand racial divisions. The type may have been so changed by intermixture of blood as to justify an intermediate classification. Something very like this has actually taken place in India. Thus, in Hindustan and Berar there was such an intermixture of the “Aryan” invader with the dark-skinned Dravidian.”
Lots of interesting concepts there to pick apart and get a sense of how early 20th century American elite thought of India.
100 years later, and Northwesterners still think like this.
To be fair, this isn’t everyone by any means. The loons are just expressive and misrepresent/misunderstand data nowadays to justify their preconceived notions. They think spazzing more will make people buy their BS more.
Lol, lot of gore talk in all folk songs. Then get a reality check in Canada and suddenly turn into “brown munde.” Good stuff
@Hoju
Even Italians and Lebanese Arabs and Palestinians and Afghans were not considered White by the Supreme Court in the time frame you are talking about. They had to contest in court to be assigned “White” status by fighting multiple court cases, with an anthropologist on hand to be given that status. Their entire community had to mobilize and come up with strategies to convince the court that they were “White” — using arguments like “Jesus was born in the Levant, so we are White” etc —- still, many were socially ostracized at the time and even lynched and banned from marrying others in certain states. And these are Europeans we are talking about. It took a long time for them to be considered White. In contrast, there were very few people from the Indian subcontinent in the US at the time, so no such community existed and moreover, there were no Northwesterners of Aryan descent present in any significant quantity needed to petition and campaign for their change of status.
Besides, Bhagat Singh Thind is just one case, and it is no surprise that he wasn’t considered White — after all, he looks like a Harnizo and is an admixed Sikh Jatt— there were multiple other cases where Indians were individually classified as “White” by the courts, you should look up the case law history to see that it was a case by case basis, no different from how other nationalities were treated. In fact, even in the South, multiple Indians were classified as “White” and allowed to use “White-only” facilities as they were looked upon as White by other Americans. Indians were treated so well that when an African American man wore a turban and went to the South, he was considered to be an exotic White man and allowed to freely use all White facilities. He even remarked that Whites told him that they hated African Americans but that he was a distinguished gentleman from India.
Furthermore, groups like Italians used Indian culture/image to further hasten their acceptance into American society— Rudolph Valentino dressed like a Maharaja and was considered an exotic man from the East, very popular with audiences. And just like Arabs and Northern Africans and Afghan and Latinos were eventually assigned “White” status, so were Indians — in fact, in the 1960s, my grandparents came to the US and were considered White on arrival — because by then, the US government had classified Indians as “White” — owing to the fact that immigration from India had increased enough to the point that the US government needed to classify them. So just like other West Eurasian Caucasoids living in Asia, Indians too were classified as White once their immigration reached critical mass. You only talk about a singular case in a particular context/time period in history, while neglecting to mention the whole timeline. You are likely a typical complexed and most likely indigenous South Asian who passes for a Dravidian. Don’t try to drag all of us down with you, it will never work.
Jaats and Khatris and Kambojas are 86 to 88-92% West Eurasian. We are White and cluster within range of other West Eurasians. This is according to the latest cutting edge science. Look at the admixture averages I listed above. Since AASI has West Eurasian in it as well, these values will only increase in the future. There are Russians and Turks that cluster next to us on PCA maps. So we are definitely White. Whiter than North Africans even, who are also considered White. Deal with its
BTW, he wasn’t deported. On the contrary, he was not only given citizenship soon after the case, he was a successful businessman in his own community, and he married a White woman and had kids with her, all of whom were considered White. Other South Asians were also able to petition to stay thanks to Ganesh Pandit, a lawyer in the US. And starting in the 1940s, Indians began immigrating to the US in larger numbers, thanks to a decision by the US Congress that recognized Indian independence. Perhaps you should do your research better. Then again, I expect no less from an incensed, complexed, emotional indigenous South Asian like yourself.
‘Speaking at the event, DMK MP A. Raja said “Viduthalai, Murasoli (DMK’s mouthpiece), Theekathir (Communist Party of India’s mouthpiece), and others should start asking – ‘Who is a Hindu?’. We should have the right to assert – ‘we don’t wish to be a Hindu, why are you keeping me as a Hindu?’.”
“You’re a Shudra till you remain a Hindu. You’re a son of the prostitute till you remain a Shudra. You’re a Panchaman (Dalit) till you remain a Hindu. You’re an untouchable till you remain a Hindu. How many of you wish to stay as children of prostitutes? How many of you wish to remain untouchable? Only if we’re vocal about these questions, it will become elemental in breaking Santhana (Sanatana Dharma).”
it is nearly impossible to argue with the tamil middle castes. they have political power with the vague ‘dravidian’ ideology and will not let go. many of them are devote hindus, but for the sake of political power, this strange ideology stays.
One can argue that Bangladeshi Hindus or Pakistani Hindus are more “devout” than Indian Hindus, since they are a minority and cling to their faith more. What matters is political power which we all know where it rests in less Hindu areas.
Lol they can try. One nation. It will happen. Family visited Indian Kashmir recently. Things are not perfect but a lot better than before the abrogation. Things will change. Just a matter of time
Even the US Census Bureau specifically states that the term “Asian Indian” on the US census race classification form is “not a meaningful description of racial ancestral or ethnic heritage and does not have any biological or scientific meaning”.
Not only that, but multiple research papers and studies conducted by the US Census Bureau and other organizations in the US including the FBI, have all come to the same conclusion: that “Asian Indian” is not a race or an ethnic group and that South Asians are free to self identify as the racial and ethnic group that best fits their ancestry and race. We all know that it was Gujaratis that sought to change the racial classification of South Asians from “White” which is what it used to be in 1970, to “Asian Indian“ in an attempt to get low interest SBA loans from the Reagan administration.
Through their efforts and petitioning, after 10 Long years, they successfully managed to create a contrived race classification box on the US census for their own selfish needs in 1980, as is typical for the Gujarati mindset. They didn’t care a tiny bit for the interests of other South Asians, be they East Asian or SE Asian, or Dravidian, or even Aryan/Caucasian racially. Without this action, we would still be considered “White” by the US government.
What’s even more curious is the fact that they refused to co-opt the already existing categories for race in the US census. They could’ve easily chosen to fit in as non-white Latinos/Hispanics. Because that is what they look like by and large, and all they have to do is adopt new names, something most already do by anglicizing it in subsequent generations. They already follow American culture or are supposed to and religion is a non-issue in the United States. After all, being Latino/Hispanic is about following a particular culture. And that culture is very mutable in the United States, so as long as you look like you can pass for Latino and you have a particular name that fits, shit you don’t even need a Latino name, then that’s what you are racially and scientifically.
My theory is that they were ashamed to be put in the same category as Latinos, as perhaps they look down upon them because they tend to be of a different socioeconomic class typically. Perhaps they forgot about the fact that there are also white Latinos and Hispanics, both in their own subcontinent and in Latin America. So Kal Penn (he anglicized his name) AKA Kalpen Modi is just a non-white Latino by a different name. If he hadn’t sold himself as a stereotypical Indian by starring in movies where a south Indian surname is used to represent all South Asians I guarantee you no one would’ve ever thought he was Indian. I’m sure you (thewarlock) also look like a typical non-white Latino, likely an indigenous or mestizo Latino as that is what 90% of Gujaratis are. Harnizo is unlikely but still possible, like Priti Patel or Amisha Patel and Aditya Pancholi. And Castizo like Mahesh Bhatt is very unlikely unless you are a Gujarati Brahmin or other High Caste. No Criollos in Gujarat except Parsis like Rohinton Patel, DDS, and merchant Khatris, who are not native to Gujarat. Besides, if you were a Castizo or a Criolo you wouldn’t be so complexed about your identity, so I have my money on the fact that your mestizo; Harnizo would be very unlikely but still somewhat possible.
^^and watch his TED talk. He explains how Indian is a menangless term and how we are all different from each other and mixed with different things. No one thinks he looks Indian, even in India, forget about the US. He took a DNA test and was 83% West Eurasian or Caucasian. That makes him a castizo genetically and he looks like one too. In the US he fits in perfectly as a Castizo American who can even be white passing.
Even Nikki Haley who is a Castizo, and Preet Bharara, who is also a Castizo are considered white in the US by other white people. Whereas Nirav Tolia is considered a non-white Hispanic/Latino who insists upon being “Indian” when in reality he’s no longer Indian as that is nothing but a nationality and the Indian government will not come and save his ass when he is moored on an island And will refuse to consider him an Indian. It’s pathetic that he sticks to that identity when in reality he is now just a non-white Indigenous/Hispanic American— that is the true biologic and legal and scientific reality of his identity and he better get used to it. It’s like a non-white indigenous American coming to the US from Mexico and having children in the USA and then telling his own children that they are not Indigenous/Hispanic American but Mexican American. Just complete nonsense.
Even more absurd when you realize that the AASI range in South Asia is from 0% AASI to 85% AASI, not including NE and SE Asian admixture found in some groups, that also ranges from 0% E Asian to 99% E Asian. Jesus Christ, that’s like the difference between Han Chinese, Uyghurs, Uzbeks and Turkish people. Or like the difference between Kenyans, Somalians, Ethiopians, Eritreans, Suadanese, Moroccans and Egyptians. Might as well call all of Africa Black and all of Asia Han Chinese. And all of Latin America Indigenous American racially. Just insane logic to say South Asians are all the same. They never were and they never will be.
LOL I already forgot my sign in details for the original account hahaha
Anyways playing around with Vahaduo is fun.
I can be modelled as 84.4 Bengali_Bangladesh, 10.4 Turkmen, and 5.2 Tibetan_Lhasa with a distance of 1.65%
Sumit
1 year ago
By Latin American race standards my parents are an interracial couple.
But they from the same region and community in India.
Should I start identifying as mixed (west Eurasian and East Eurasian) or this weird European racial caste classification when people ask me my background ?
It’s quite simple really, if you look Caucasian/Middle Eastern/White, you can and should identify as one. Because if you are a member of one race that happens to be Caucasian, then that is what you are biologically and legally, and that is what the world will perceive you as, and consider you to be. And your phenotype/your parents’ phenotypes will reflect this biological/social truth as well.
On the other hand, if you look mixed and/or non-white, or non-Caucasian, then you should identify as a non-white Latino/Hispanic as that is what you would be considered as in the Americas and in Europe, being a mixed Eurasian.
Now if you have admixture from an Onge-like source AKA Hoabinhians and Jarawa, like many South Indians and Adivasis, Tribals, and Bengalis/Bangladeshis, then you can still pass as a non-white Latino, but depending on how much Onge like admixture you have, and depending on how your appearance is impacted, people might mistake you for Black-admixed Latino and/or the stereotypical “Dravidian/Sri Lankan/Tamil” look that some idiots think represents all South Asians and that has become infamous as the “Indian” look the world over. Good luck in that case, because Northern and Northwestern Indians/South Asians and indeed even Gujaratis don’t have any admixture from Jarawa and Hoabinhians and Onge-like sources and will never look like those Tamils/Bengalis/Tribals that do and will never have that problem as a result.
No worries my Latin brother. In South Asia, we are all Latinos, it’s just that some are White Latinos, some non-White Latinos, some Black Latinos, some Middle Eastern/Northern African Latinos and some East Asian Latinos. All depends on:
1) The strain of AASI you are mixed with (SE Asian)
2) How much AASI you are mixed with
3) What else you are mixed with (SSA, NE/SE Asian)
4) Whether you have additional Onge-like admixture
5) How much Steppe/Iran admixture you have
Keep in mind, as outlined above, there are a lot of different AASI strains, and all strains look different from each other within South Asia due to divergent evolution/climate etc.m, in addition to possessing extra ENA admixture from other sources, depending on the strain. I will post examples of other AASI strains and how their progeny turn out when mixing with West Eurasians/Caucasians, both SouthCentral Asians within South Asia, and MENA and European folks as well. Stay tuned.
You are delusional. LOL. You can cherrypick as much as you want but Indians and Pakis don’t look Latino. Here in Canada, anybody can tell the difference between an Indian and some other brown guy hahaha it’s why Brampton is clowned so often. They know what international students and Doordash delivery dudes look like.
Yeah bro Ro Khanna totally looks white bro not like a typical pajeet hahaha and he’s supposed to have less AASI cuz he’s a Punjabi Khatri.
Same goes for the US where those NW indians are called Rajesh and Baljeet and stereotyped, why do Indians try so hard to be someone they’re not especially these Punjabi pajeets when everyone can identify them from a mile away hahahaha this guy actually thinks he’s white or some weird Caucasian thing lol just bring that up in real life and watch how hard you get laughed at.
Even “Jatts” like Bindy Johal are easily identified as Indian I love how Indians in particular hate themselves so much that they try to LARP as other ethnicities lol you don’t see Sri Lankans, Bengalis or the Mauritians Guyanese Trinidadians or Fijans try this BS
lol one of them tried to pull this shit in court in the US and got rekt.
Racelearner
1 year ago
I was always intrigued by the fact that there are Khatris that look like Rahul Dev and Ranbir Kapoor/Raj Kapoor, while others look like Anindita Nayyar the Bollywood actress, like Ro Khanna the Congressman, and like Kunal Nayyar, the actor who plays Raj Koothrapalli on the Big Bang Theory.
They obviously look like members of two entirely different racial groups; one looks fully White/Caucasian of the Mediterranean, Iranid/Irano-Afghan/East Med branch, while the other three look fully like Latin/Hispanic Americans, either indigenous, for Ro and Kunal and Castizo for Anindita. Yet both groups claim to be Khatris. How could this be?
(Yes, if Anindita Nayyar and Ro Khanna and Kunal Nayyar went to Mexico/Latin America, people would speak to them in Spanish. Heck, even in North America, other Latinos would speak to them in Spanish/their mother tongue. They don’t even have to change their names, their phenotype/facial appearance/race is like that of Latin Americans. Changing their name would just confirm American suspicions that they are non-White Latinos/Hispanics. Khanna should join the Hispanic caucus, as that is his true community.)
Why/how could this be? Is it a magic trick or some random artifact of genetic recombination that Khatris look so different from each other? Is Jyoti Chopra of MGM (who looks White) the same genetically as Priyanka Chopra of Nick Jonas fame (who looks indigenous Latino), and they just happened to turn out looking like different races? Is Neera Tanden the same as Jay Tandon in Los Angeles? Or are the ones that look indigenous/non-White like Priyanka Chopra and Neera and others doing something far more sinister/stupid?
Well, the answer is just like I suspected for years/common sense: they are simply lying about their background/heritage. Who is lying? Well, my friends, it’s rather obvious isn’t it? Ro Khanna and Kunal Nayyar and Anindita Nayyar and Priyanka Chopra and others of their ilk are lying. And how do I know this to be true?
Two reasons. Firstly, the latest PCA plots show that there are not just one group of Khatris, but rather two or even three groups of Khatris. The first group clusters with other South Central Asians like Jaats, Rors, Jats, Kambojas, Sindhi UCs, Kalash, Kho, Chitrali, Pathans, Pashtuns and Pakhtuns and Tajiks, as well as certain POK Gujjars. This is the Caucasian/West Eurasian/Aryan group that looks like Raj Kapoor and Jay Tandon. Their entire family passes as White/Caucasian because they all share the same genetic background/heritage. They are 85%+ Caucasian/West Eurasian.
The second group of Khatris clusters near Gujarati Brahmins and the third group of Khatris clusters near Guptas and lower caste North Indians and East Indians. Corresponds perfectly to the phenotypes of Anindita Nayyar (Castizo like Gujarati Brahmins) and Kunal Nayyar and Ro Khanna (indigenous like Guptas and lower caste North Indians). What a beautiful coincidence! So what genetic analyses tell us is that Khatris are not a homogeneous group of people, with a range of AASI admixture from 12/13% to as much as 60-65% on the higher end. And this is reflected in their phenotypes. So the more mixed ones retain their Khatri identity (most likely they were never Khatris to begin with) despite being and looking nothing like Aryan/Caucasian Khatris.
The second reason is again related to the above: The group of Khatris that doesn’t look Caucasian/ white/Middle Eastern also has parents and grandparents and indeed great grandparents/past ancestors that don’t look like Caucasians either. Whereas the group of Khatris that looks Caucasian has consistency throughout their family with every member looking white/Middle Eastern and/or Caucasian for generations. This tells us that race phenotype and DNA are all correlated directly.
In South Asia, just like in other countries, your face/race is a reflection of your caste/tribe/DNA. Nothing is random or a mutation or unexplainable or inconsistent. Everything makes perfect sense. It’s just that some people lie and/or are ashamed about their heritage and background and make up contrived identities, while others stay true to their heritage and bloodline and look like what they say they are, something that genetic analysis and DNA studies back up completely. The same goes for other tribes and castes in south Asia such as the Pashtuns and the Jaats and the Kambojas, most of them are saying the truth about their identity and look like what they are, but a significant minority in each of these groups that happens to be larger in numbers within India, claims to be something that they are not, something that is easily verifiable from their appearance and indeed, from DNA studies. There are outlier Pashtuns and Jats scattered among lower caste north and east Indians on any PCA.
This is the harsh reality of real life and of living in the west, you can no longer lie about being Brahmin or Khatri, or Jaat or Pashtun while being as mixed as a regular generic South Asian, and get away with it— You have to actually look like what you claim you are, which means you have to look white and/or Middle Eastern. Welcome to the brave New World, where water finds its own level — get used to it.
Gajamardanam
1 year ago
“you can no longer lie about being Brahmin or Khatri, or Jaat or Pashtun while being as mixed as a regular generic South Asian, and get away with it”
even the most brazen casteists I have met in my life would shy away from talking like this.
Racelearner
1 year ago
For South Asians the choice is simply this:
Northerners/Gujaratis- Tortilla vs Roti/Bhakri
Southerners without Onge- Idli vs Arepa
NWners/Aryans- Naan/Kulcha vs Pita/Lavash
Easterners/Northeasterners- Chilli Paneer/Chicken vs Mapo Tofu/General Tso’s
Southerners with Onge- String Hoppers vs Jollof Rice
Make the choice Latino brotherhood. Now that we are bonafide Americans, we must assimilate and integrate as Americans as well. Pick a side. Pledge your allegiance. And live your life. As easy as pie. BTW, if it’s not obvious enough, the food choices are analogous to the racial groups you belong in for Americans.
All of us have our equivalents in the Americas. We are global citizens in the true sense. No wonder on all PCAs Latin Americans cluster right next to us, from Paniya to Pashtuns. AASI diversified at the same time as SE and NE Asians and the natives of the Americas, so all of this makes sense and also explains why AASI looks identical to the natives of the Americas. In fact Native Americans were once in correctly classified as Australoid, just like certain ASI strains in India were.
@Sumit
Lots of Bullshit and wrong information in your comment.
Shaun King is neither Black nor White — he is a non White Latino of the Black extraction. And Black people aren’t just West-East Eurasian mixed. They are West Eurasian-SSA mixed, and SSA has nothing to do with East Eurasians. In fact, East Eurasians are the farthest thing from SSA on planet Earth. Furthermore, the Black identity/identification in the US is based on looking visibly Black admixed, not the one drop rule, which by the way, only applied to African Americans in the Jim Crow era and holds no relevance today. In fact, studies have found that once people have less than 20% SSA they stop identifying as Black.
If it still held relevance today, then all Arabs and Northern Africans would be considered Black, not to mention many Portuguese and Italians mixed with Black that live in Europe, and all Latin Americans, even those that are 90% European and look White would become Black as well. That is simply not the case anymore and even in the past, those that didn’t look Black passed as White. In addition, to show that the one drop rule only applied in the context of African Americans mixing with Europeans, Arabs and Northern Africans and Europeans and Latin and Hispanic Americans and Jews mixed with Black were always considered non Black and the one drop rule never applied to them at any time in history.
Did you know that all Latinos that weren’t indigenous were considered White by the US starting from the 1890s up to 1970, when a small group of Latinos lobbied for a new Latin/Hispanic category to be created solely for cultural representation? Did you know that up until that point, ALL Mestizos/harnizos/Castizos/ and Criollos were considered simply White and didn’t have a separate box for themselves? In other words, when Arabs and Italians were struggling to be considered White, Latin/Hispanic and mixed Native Americans of all stripes and races and admixtures (except visibly Black admixed/appearance) were considered White in the US by the US government. As far as passing as a different race is concerned, people can pass as members of many different races by tanning their skin and getting perms and plastic surgery, it still doesn’t change their DNA, biological and legal race and that’s an entirely different topic that has no relevance here.
Did you also know that people that speak Latin Languages like Spanish and Portuguese and Italian also mark “White Hispanic/Latino” despite being of full European descent because the term has no racial utility, simply a cultural affinity? And that it is simply an optional term/affiliation that you can choose not to identify with if not a part of that culture? Did you know that White Latinos/Hispanics are treated no differently from other Whites and have never been excluded or treated differently either? The category was never created because of a one drop rule. How do you get all of this wrong information? Don’t make up things when they are not true at all.
There was never a one-drop rule for Latinos or East Eurasians in the United States — there is no such thing/concept/paradigm and there never was— and if such a rule had existed, then all Europeans would have been affected by it, as they share ancestry with Native Americans and because all West Eurasians have some East Eurasian admixture/ancestry, both ancient and modern, from ANE, Siberia, NE Asia, AASI (found in ancient European components) and modern ones. All Russians, Turks, Iranians, Azeris, Central Asians, Eastern and Northeastern Europeans, Central Europeans, and Latin Americans would have been affected by this imaginary rule that never existed and for good reason.
The one drop rule only existed for blacks and even then was not applicable to those mixed with blacks outside of the Americas at any point in time. In fact, the existence of a one-Drop rule for East Eurasian admixture would be akin to a Nazi-like state when Hitler was in power and everyone except Sardinians would be considered non-White because all the other Europeans are relatively more mixed than Sardinians. Indeed all West Eurasians are mixed with East Eurasians to different degrees, it’s just that Sardinians are the least admixed of all along with certain groups like Assyrians. Even Hitler did not have a one drop rule for East Eurasian admixture, be it ASI/brown/Native American or south east Asian or north east Asian admixture. In fact, he even considered the Japanese to be Aryans. Even Hitler would not be considered white using the one drop rule.
So no, South Asians would never identify in a matter similar to African-Americans, who themselves don’t all identify as African-American beyond a single threshold of sub-Saharan African admixture anyway. Besides there are 1 billion other reasons why the African-American example does not apply to Eurasians like us, some of which I have listed above.
Like I outlined above, Hispanic whites are viewed as no different from other non-Hispanic whites when it comes to racial legal social and biological realities. This has always been the case. This was simply a cultural distinction that was lobbied for by Hispanics themselves because they didn’t like simply being considered white as they considered their culture to be distinctive from Anglo-Saxon culture and wanted recognition for it. This is something that is less important these days as America is increasingly a melting pot and people follow American culture and more and more Latinos are simply identifying as whites without checking the Hispanic box according to the US census. So South Asians that are White/Caucasian racially do not risk any type of exclusion from other people that also identify as white. These are the facts, take it or leave it.
Racelearner
1 year ago
What’s fascinating is that researchers have found Onge-like/Jarawa-like/Hoabinhian like affinity in certain isolated groups of indigenous South Americans as well — this explains why certain indigenous South Americans can be as dark as Fitzpatrick 5 or even close to 6 on the pigmentation scale — and why they look identical to Tamil and Telugu Dalits/Lower Castes/Adivasis/Tribals in many cases. I’m sure the hotter climate also plays a role, particularly at that longitude/latitude. Random selection and sexual selection also play roles.
Some even theorize that there was a land/sea-based migration of indigenous people from Southern South Asia to South America a long time ago. Perhaps why there are so many similarities between Indigenous Americans and even Tamils/Southern Indians/Sri Lankans, forget about Northern AASI strains, whom they are identical to in appearance and diet.
Did you know that the traditional dress worn by Mexican indigenous people is derived from the Sari?!?! Yes, you read that right — a Tamil slave from India introduced the Sari to the natives of the Americas back in the 16th Century, and they immediately started adopting/wearing a slightly modified version of it—called the China Poblana—and it is directly derived from it. The similarities just keep getting larger and larger. Sari vs. China Poblana — make your choice Dravidians.
I recently went to the museum for the American Indian at the national mall in DC and the tour guide there told me that many people who come to visit from the Indian subcontinent feel an intense emotional connection to the exhibits there and even start crying, saying that they feel a deep spiritual and racial connection to the natives of the Americas and that they look like Indians to them. Even the tour guide herself (who was of Native Indian descent) remarked that they looked like different Native American tribes/Natives of the Americas and mixed Natives, not to mention the fact that Native Americans were and are still called “Indians” and were officially classified as “Indian American” until 1980. Some Indian reservations and organizations still use that term, making the use of the term “Indian American” by South Asians utterly absurd and useless, and rendering the identification of South Asians as “Indian” even more laughable.
Make the switch. Do the right thing. Join the international Latino brotherhood, from Chennai to Chandigarh to Chelyabinsk to Chula Vista. Everyone is LatinX. Just pick your specific flavor of LatinX. And live your life as an American of that group. Assimilate or be irrelevant. No one cares about South Asian worldviews and identification. Everyone thinks like Americans becaus they represent popular culture and worldviews.
Another attack by radical Sikh extremists in Toronto against Hindus.
I wonder if Sikh extremism falls under the umbrella of White supremacy. Then maybe terrorist sympathizers like Jagmeet Singh would be forced to take it seriously.
sameer
1 year ago
Vedanta and Foxconn formed a JV and announced that they’d invest $19.5Bn in Gujarat for a Semiconductor Plant. It’s interesting that neither of them have previous semiconductor manufacturing experience, though Foxconn does manufacture electronics. Both of them also have shady labor practices. It’s great that there is some initiative to bring this tech to India, but the pessimist in me is suspicious. Semiconductors are turning out to be the next gold rush. Lots of players but few winners. What do y’all think?
Was watching Telegu movie Sita ramam last night. Is it just me or there is a glut of South Indian movies now with Pakistan, Indian army, nationalism etc as their themes?
In 1984 elections, the BJP won only two seats nationwide. One was in Gujarat and the other was in then Andhrapradesh, now telanagana constituency of Haumakonda.
So, in a way, they did get a start in AP. Why they didn’t expand is multiple factors, most important in my opinion are (a) allying with TDP (b) YS Rajashekhar Reddy who revived Congress fortunes from 2004 until they broke up the state.
But i see all around the ‘march lands’ and the ‘peripheral people’ being more and more ingrained into mainstream now. Hispanics in USA, Sindhis in Pakistan etc.
They will never cover it. The Canadian government loves to nurture khalistani terrorists. One of the major party leaders is a notorious terrorist sympathizer.
The greatest terrorist attack in Canadian history was committed by Sikh extremists on an air India flight that mostly had Canadian Hindus in it. And that has mostly been brushed aside, so there’s a track record of the Canadian government encouraging Sikhs to attack Hindus.
Heck under the guise of religious accommodation Sikh teens are allowed to carry daggers into schools and such. Imagine letting such people, who are the furthest thing from stoic, carry weapons everywhere.
We need to put a wall around Brampton. Let the Punjabis and the Gujjus fight it out (although its gonna be pretty one sided). Don’t want a Gujju exodus towards the rest of GTA but gotta live with it.
Canadian government has dropped the ball on immigration, they are importing too many Indians, and that too from a specific area. Almost 33% of immigrants are from India – mostly Punjab/Haryana – and all of them land in Greater Toronto Area. Brampton is rife with corruption, and an official hub of every type of fraud/scam known to man.
Gujus have stupidly gone too far down ahimsa pacifism nonsense. They should go back to same ways of neighboring marathis and rajasthanis. These clowns knew they could get away with harassment of pacifists. Gujus must change. Being an easy target is idiotic. Doubt major change anytime soon. They are so far removed from any dominant culture that isn’t mercentile. Don’t hold your breath for even a 10% MQM.
Gujus often will move wherever it is safe and prosperous. If that’s where you will, they will tend to move there.
Anyway, I will keep encouraging people to stand up to these radicals. Hopefully, I am wrong and Gujus wakeup a bit.
Knowing gujus, they will wait for other Hindu groups to engage in direct physical violence. You saw that with the Haryana guy Vishal Jood in Australia. The whole mindset has to change. At least in S Africa, the guju Indians picked up guns recently to counter the riots. But they are removed enough from the “bijness” only culture.
But Kushal Mehra has a good podcast on Khaslistani politics in canada. And how they successfully game the election process in the election primaries to get their candidates selected in all the major parties.
It’s easy enough to say that Hindu Canadians need to be engaged in the political nitty gritty of Canadian primaries and that Hindu Canadians need to respond in-kind to violence at the street level.
But one thing to keep in mind is that most adult Hindu Canadians tend to be in school or working.
In Canada, Gujratis are docile and have no street cred. They are not big in arts, media or politics. Most of them aspire to become middle managers in some midsized Canadian company, crunching or analyzing numbers, satisfied with rat race mediocrity. The enterprising ones are also so conservative that they are dominated in business by even the Sikhs. Their kids become deracinated within the first generation, compared to second or third gen Sikh Punjabis who still yap about Jatt pride. The other two major Hindu groups in Canada are Bengalis and Tamils – both hate Gujratis. Hindus trying to politically mobilize in Canada is just a pipe dream. Not gonna happen.
First gen Indians in the US are unfortunately into ‘rat race mediocrity’, In second gen everyone becomes a doctor which is a good thing. NI are not as retarded about Amreeka as Madraasis but Gujjus in the US stand out because a lot of them get into the US via visa fraud and end up working for drab restaurants/motel/uber/…
In Pakistani mohallas in the US (NYC/Houston/Chicago), I see burqa, chappal, above ankle pyjama, goat-like beard, poverty, charity thrift stores, ten grocery shops and ten cheap restaurants right next to each other, reminds me of Barabanki/Lucknow-Sadar/Chandani-Chowk.
Do Indians in Brampton also live like that? Indians (including Indian Muslims) in the US seem to be a much-much richer than Pakistanis.
If the game in Amreeka-Kanedaa remains fair i.e. no discrimination or violence, then in the long term my money is on Baniyas. I have seen their families and work-ethic up close. I only hope they don’t become American and stay true to their values. They will run circles around Chini/Gora/Baman/Thakur/Punjabis/Madraasi/… everyone.
Quite the opposite, the baniya culture is shown to be deficient when things are ‘fair’ & a social caste network does not provide any competitive advantage. It is risk averse and lacking imagination. North American culture is social, and its business culture is focused on customer service, innovation and risk taking is heavily rewarded and penny pinching is not fruitful. In Canada, it’s even more easier to start a small business than the US due to heavy government incentives on tax rates, healthcare and subsidies. (they cut you down to size if you start getting too big though). In this environment, risk takers are rewarded more, because the government got your back if you fail. Sikhs, Tamils, Chinese, Italians, Pakistanis, all have done well.
//In Pakistani mohallas in the US (NYC/Houston/Chicago), I see burqa, chappal, above ankle pyjama, goat-like beard, poverty, charity thrift stores, ten grocery shops and ten cheap restaurants right next to each other, reminds me of Barabanki/Lucknow-Sadar/Chandani-Chowk.//
Don’t know man, Pakistani Americans also seem to be quite rich with $90K median income which is quite high. Burqas are not common at all, and the only South Asian women I ever saw wearing Burqa were Gujrati Muslims.. Hijab on the other hand is quite common. You are right about cheap restuarants and grocery shops.. Not sure why that is in Chicago and NYC. GTA is much better on that account.
In my experience in Toronto, I think South Indians and Gujaratis get along pretty well. Perhaps not for purposes of political mobilization, but at least as far as Hindu groups from India go they socialize with each other extensively. I think there’s some solidarity there.
‘Pakistani Americans also seem to be quite rich with $90K median income which is quite high.’
I could be wrong. I am also comparing Indian neighborhoods in the Bay Area that I have lived in, with NYC/Chicago/Houston which is not fair.
On Burqa: I have seen it too many times to count in many cities. Could have Afghans, idk?
I think ease of getting GC means a lot more blue collar (less academically talented?) Pakistanis get into the US. Also Pakistani-IIT i.e., LUMS the biggest feeder to American universities unfortunately doesn’t teach engineering. NUST, COMSAT, and such are not at the tier of IITs. I have seen a few brilliant hardworking Pakistani Punjabi engineering guys from these places but the numbers are still low. I think Pakistani doctors have a better ratio because it is up to individual merit in USMLE STEP 1/2, unlike pedigree in engineering. I don’t know enough 1.5-2nd, 3rd gen Pakistanis.
From what I understand, chutiya Indians are washing puke stains from carpets all over Brampton clubs pretending to be CC students, reasonably good ones are coming to US for MS, prachand chutiya ones are crossing the Mexico border. Most of Canada except BC and parts of Monreal is anyways ugly, depressingly cold and miserable. We have too many chutiya berojgaar guys in Punjab, welcome phenomenon. What proportion are from Haryana?
The Canadian visa office in Chandigarh should be abolished. Canada is already weak when it comes to fraud, but the Chandigarh visa office is the worst. That would solve half the issues.
Unfortunately, the Khalistani vote bank is strong, GTA suburbs are key to federal politics, and many Khalistanis occupy the highest echelons of the Canadian political apparatus.
@Quereishi Canada has been cracking down though. This year a huge number of student visas were rejected in India, with the majority of those being from Punjab. Canada Immigration is a huge industry in Punjab. You literally see IELTS coaching boards on almost every street.
Guju business potential takes time to click. Same with politics. The US has seen a big rise in both only recently catching attention. Sikhs are just more established in Canada and have more numbers. Give it some time.
As for street cred, Gujus have that really no where. Gangsterism is just not culturally valued at all. Cultural dissemination is also a fail. Blend and adapt or stay insular is mostly what Gujus do. They don’t repackage and really market their own culture. Punjabis are the kings of that from their food to making music. That along with a lot of military backgrounds, rustic rural roots, a ton of recent homeland violence in their history, and strong machismo culture makes them a lot more amenable to street gangs and obtaining street cred that way.
Sikhism is also very very well branded. The irony of preaching egalitarianism yet rife with a ton of casteism (eg. Jatt chauvanism, did gurudwaras) and even sexism in many cases (eg. highest selective abortion rates) is just given a pass. Langars and charity work are extremely well publicized even with organizations like khalsa aid having a clearly very political element, though of course doing some good work. History of military service for the West in world wars helps a ton. Finally, domination of entire media scene in India from North to South (eg. Actress import) by some Punjabi Hindus and pedastalization of their relatively fairer skin and more caucasoid features among the 2/3 non dalit population, also adds to the mix. Basically, the baseline milleau for street cred and media domination already exists among Sikhs and Punjabis in general.
They are also massive winners by coming to Canada early. The property value surges allow them to be a lot more entrepreneurial in business.
One trend that is there is deracination among their educated classes that are becoming more white collar and heavy rise of wokeism. Birth rates are also falling a lot. Demographics do not favor the community. Immigration temporarily will solve that. But homeland politics shifting demographically will put some reverse pressure back on them. Also, illegal immigration and future immigration in general, when it ebbs and flows, will eventually favor places like gangetic plains, as the region, albeit slowly, improves. The friction that will be seen will be of a different sort. Haryana immigrants already are clashing with Punjab ones. Heck even Khalistani and non khalistani sword fights are already are showing up. Gang violence and drugs have risen and are tearing through community in such a way that even Punjabiyat idols like Moosewala are impacted. Sikh on Sikh violence is huge, look at Stockton shooting recently. So things are not so rosy on that front.
I do see some glimmer of hope for Guju diaspora. Guys like Sumit and I aren’t uncommon anymore. We recognize our community issues and are changing to fill in the cultural gaps. It is only a glimmer because deracination tends to win out faster than staying culturally loyal and also filling in the gaps. But let’s see. Maybe things will surprise me. I won’t stop highlighting the issues. One advantage of deracination is the ability to use Western vehicles of institutions (aka formal legal, etc.) Rather than engage directly in mud fighting. This is already seen with how Gujus are highlighting the recent incident. International level wealth and family connection for large media houses is already there. So alternate vehicles of pressure exist outside of direct street confrontation. Of course, this is not enough. But the situation is not as dire as if Gujus were relatively poor like Punjabi mistreated dalits.
Gujus need an organized response like Jews. It took a Holocaust to fully incentivize the latter to add martialness to mercantilism. Hopefully gujus need less. Fortunately for martial groups, learning mercantilism is both a lot easier and more incentivized in the more globalizing technocratic world.
Final element is that in young generation that is educated. I see a lot less of this friction and BS. Yes political views can vary but people realize that there is a lot of life beyond this and that there is more in common between most people , regardless of race, than there is different. Interaction with other groups, something educated people tend to do more of by being in more cosmopolitan spaces on average, leads to a lot less reliance on these types of tribal identities. These clashes are more of a blue collar thing. And that blue collar nature of the community, chapter wise, though still fueled by immigration, is waning in the legacy population. Yes educated activists are much more dangerous so there is that side. But that is more of the fort oof many groups to counteract because that is more of brain game with media narratives, not an all out brawl.
@Q
Bania culture is not risk averse at all in business. A lot of family gamble everything to make it big. You have no idea what you are talking about. Networth is continuing surge and Baniya descendents are playing a big role in Silicon valley and a ton of startups.
Making rip off hip hop music with crass Punjabi lyrics is not the epitome of creativity. Creativity wise, I don’t see a deficits outside of some narrow media views. Education values differ for sure. Ivy League enrollments are a testament to that as are National Merit Scholar lists. I see plenty of Gujarati and non Gujarati Banja risk taking from the hedgefund space to big tech. Small business ownership is massive among both groups. Look at who does some of the riskiest small businesses, including liquor store and pawn shop ownership in low income areas or motels in rural America. It is often Gujaratis. Selling drugs type risk isn’t something Gujaratis. But taking legal business risk is certainly very common.
Canadian situation is not a fair comparison. If anything, Sikhs there have bania advantage of established wealth.
Pak income is 2/3 of Indian income in America. They tend to also live in high expense places like Indian Americans. So purchasing power wise, their income is not extraordinarily above median American one but certainly better. Much better than UK counterparts.
1) I think Pak Americans tend to prefer single income households with defined gender roles, even highly educated professional ones, compared to Indian American households. Also, Indian Americans are earning more because they concentrate in High COL states like NY and Cali, whereas significant number of Pak Americans live in low COL areas like Texas and Virginia. Indians are more likely to be in IT which pays higher as well. These three factors explains most of the household income disparity.
2) When I talk about Brampton as a ghetto, it’s quite relative. If you haven’t visited Canada, you would think that it’s some crime infested inner city hood. In reality, Brampton town has a median household income of around $100,000.. which is higher than Toronto city. So it’s all relative. We are not talking about some slum here, the criticism is actually on the culture and attitudes.
3) My post is not some Gujrati hate post, Gujratis must have been very successful in the US, I don’t know the social dynamics. However I am comparing groups in GTA that start off from the same place two three decades ago. Gujrati community in Canada is also quite old, and there has been a significant mass of Gujratis since the 90’s. All immigrant groups started off from the bottom inner city neighborhoods.. but then eventually expanded as the city expands. But few groups performed better than others, Gujarati are at the lower end of that spectrum. Go to outer burbs of GTA and you will find Srilankan Tamils, Sikh Punjabis, Pakistanis buying property, but rarely groups like Gujaratis or Bengalis. All my Gujarati friends who were in living in Scarborough 20 years ago are still living in run down Scarborough. None of my SikhPunjabi/Pakistani/Tamil friends are.
The pattern is the same whether you look at Punjabis or Gujratis or Tamils over the long term.
in 1991, there were 54,000 Gujaratis, 37,000 Tamils, 167,000 Punjabis.
in 2001, there were 81,000 Gujaratis, 111,000 Tamils, 338,000 Punjabis.
in 2011, 119,000 Gujaratis, 179,000 Tamils, 545,000 Punjabis.
in 2021 209,000 Gujaratis, 238,000 Tamils, 942,000 Punjabis.
Punjabis increased by 564%
Gujratis increased by 387%
Tamils increased by 643%
I would also add something, the Tamil and Punjabi immigrant populations, especially from the 90’s is refugee population, so low quality.. but the Gujrati one is mostly immigrant via the tough Canadian immigration system. By all accounts, Gujratis should have dominated the other two economically at least, but this has not turned out like that.
Final disagreement is social element. Hell Gujus are so adaptable and social that they played a big role in the Trump and Biden campaigns. The entire younger generation is way less conservative. That comes with the deracination. Across Anerican high society, Gujus are popping up just fine. I don’t agree with your analysis.
Main wins for Punjabi again is element of capitilizaing on the already dominant cultural space from India and settling in Canada with big land holdings early. This along with street reputation and very effective culture fidelity programs, Khalistani or not, with a less deracinated youth. This allows for very good sustained media coverage. Outside of that, I don’t see much difference, especially as you move through generations.
Maybe America just does it better. But in the end, the American identity trumps all. And residual mercantilism seems a lot better than feudal chauvanism for modern economic spaces, especially in elite avenues. But that’s just my view.
Pak origin doctors are fine. They vary in quality like Indian ones. In general, Aga Khan grads have been great in my experience. The ones I met tend to be exclusively Mohajirs from well off families, many of whom grew up in places like the Gulf and returned to Pak for education.
Bengalis and Tamils hate Gujaratis? Beyond minor usual ethnic desi friction, I have not seen that in America. Yeah some views on Modi might be diff on average. But with American politics, meritocratic culture, value for education and family, and avoidance of crime- all three are similar.
Maybe Sri Lankan Tamils are an exception. They don’t view India favorably. Maybe that is what you are referring.
I sometimes think you live in some parallel reality in GTA. I haven’t seen the majority of the stuff you have gone on about.
Lol at penny pinching. Yeah maybe with blowing money on driving super cars. But a huge part of bania culture is setting a side large portion of income for business reinforcement. You seem to go of Pak caricature of “evil Hindu Baniya,” not the least bit surprising. Keep it up. Enough will laugh all the way to the bank.
Banias also are dominant in Indian startup scene. But to you that will all be entirely conspiratorial nepotism. So I won’t go into that. If you dug a little, youd be surprised of the humble origins of some in cities on diff corners of India.
Gujaratis on the whole are ideal immigrants. Hard working and entrepreneurial. Nice culture too, even if it’s not as well publicized or known.
Not a fan of the Modi sycophancy among many Gujaratis who I’ve met, though I suspect if another ethnicity’s person was PM and they had resounding democratic wins then they may act that way too.
DaThang
1 year ago
Re: The monologue on Unsupervised Libsyn- 15% is more like the North Indian average than the pan Indian subcontinent average.
Did she return the Kohinoor?
Return to whom ?
Since it was mined in India, and stayed in India, it should be returned to India. But then the British museum would be empty if they started returning the artifacts they plundered.
”The diamond, long the subject of an ownership dispute, was a gift to Queen Victoria from a Sikh king, says the Indian government”
https://news.sky.com/story/india-koh-i-noor-gem-given-to-uk-not-stolen-10248324
https://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/kohinoor-was-not-stolen-it-was-gifted-to-britain-govt-to-sc/
India declaring a day of mourning is peak clown behavior, especially after literally calling the word Rajpath a colonial vestige.
India declaring a day of mourning is peak clown behavior, especially after saying that the word Rajpath is a colonial vestige – a day before.
So sad. Granted many elites collaborated and were enriched under their reign, so they love the monarchy.
India does this nautanki for a lot of Arab kings too.
The Queen’s demise has triggered British empire derangement syndrome among Indians and Africans on social media. They denounce the Queen in the Queen’s English.
I dont go this often but I am pissed off, bitch is dead, long live the bastard.
“but I am pissed off, bitch is dead”
Why was she a bitch? Real reasons please, not just retarded moral equivalence, jingoism and injured national pride.
real reason is because she was a monarch who oversaw the colonial regime of which she is singularly a beneficiary. That is enough of a reason , after all, if they go about claiming civilizing India, it is more than fair to call them as such.
India gained Independence in 1947, Queen Elizabeth became Queen in 1952 – five years after. She was Queen during Decolonization period.
Some queries about South Asian ancestry for Razib:
—How much Anatolian/Anatolia and CHG ancestry do South Asians have, particularly in the North and Northwest? I know the IVC component has Anatolia in it, what about other ancestral components?
—How much BMAC ancestry do South Asians have?
Can someone breakdown the math here:
The Harappa Ancestry Project has a “ South Indian” component, which is apparently 50% West Eurasian and 50% East Eurasian, or ASI. Initially people thought the ASI was fully East Eurasian.
Now I realize that since then, we have further refined ASI into AASI and Iran-related ancestry, the question is, what ratio is this ancestry present in?
—Is ASI 33% West Eurasian and 66% AASI? Or is it 30% West Eurasian and 70% AASI? I’ve heard both numbers quoted and wanted to confirm.
—Finally, I’ve read that AASI, particularly in the NW, has residual West Eurasian affinity as well, from ANE admixture. It also lies on/close to the West Eurasian boundary. Do we know anything about this in terms of raw numbers? What % of AASI is W. Eurasian?
So if someone starts out with 40% South Indian, they would be 20% ASI, of which 33% is West Eurasian, so they would be around 13.4% AASI or East Eurasian, and 86.6% West Eurasian.
—Is this correct? Or does the West Eurasian fraction of the South Indian score vary? What about ASI? Is it always 30-33% West Eurasian/Iran-related?
If anyone has input, please chime in. Thanks all.
Are NW South Asians like the Kambojas and Rors, Jaats, Jats, Arain, Khatri/Aroras and certain Sindhis West Eurasian peoples?
https://ibb.co/8xBmwbg
https://ibb.co/WxGJJB6
https://ibb.co/ssW6HTZ
https://ibb.co/7GB9X9d
https://ibb.co/ZGdp2Fv
https://ibb.co/LhCD4nj
https://ibb.co/vq4gxcf
https://ibb.co/ZKhQDKy
Going by PCA, Oracles and admixture, it certainly seems like they are. They look to be as West Eurasian as Pashtuns/Pakhtuns and Kho/Chitrali people.
This means they are all in the same 85-90% West Eurasian range, with the only difference being the % of Steppe, BMAC, Iran and AASI/E. Asian combo.
Does this mean proper South Asia ends with UP Brahmins? It certainly seems like these NW tribes are best described as SouthCentral Asians as opposed to South Asians, as they not only originate from Central Asia, but have also retained their West Eurasian character/race as well. And since West Eurasians are intrusive to South Asia, these tribes are the personification of that intrusiveness physically and genetically.
Generally, populations west of the Indus River should be termed as West Eurasians.
Typically, from the DNA results (HarrappaWorld) I’ve seen, the most western-shifted South Asians are equal to the most eastern-shifted South Central Asians (Iranics and some Dardics).
That makes no sense. Geography doesn’t determine West Eurasian-ness. Besides, these NW South Asian populations are migrants from west of the Indus River/Central and Southwest Asia to begin with, and Turkic and Mongol migrations and the Arab expansion pushed them towards NW South Asia. It’s just that some stayed behind in Afghanistan/Pakistan, which is also South Asian.
Pakistan as a whole can never be considered West Eurasian, and neither can Afghanistan. Half of Afghanistan is not West Eurasian because of the huge Hazara/Uzbek/Turkic/Mixed Tajik influenced population present there. The vast majority of Pashtuns live in Pakistan as well, and so do Baloch and Brahui.
Nearly all the Central Asian countries are not West Eurasian, and there are plenty of people in Southwest Asia, like in Southern/Eastern Iran, Gulf countries, Turkey, Azerbaijan, the Levant, Northern Africa and the Arab peninsula that are not West Eurasian due to excess ENA or SSA admixture. There are even entire population groups in the Caucasus and Russia and NE and Eastern Europe that are heavily East Eurasian influenced/mixed to the point where they are no longer West Eurasian either.
But NW South Asian groups like the ones outlined above are definitely West Eurasian phenotypically and genetically— both on PCA, admixture and Oracles. They all have the same amount of AASI/ENA, within the same range and SD: 85-90%.
I’ve seen the admixture breakdown for Kambojas and Khatris/Aroras/Sindhis, Jat Sikhs, Rors, Jaat Hindus, and Arains, and all of these tribes cluster with Pashtuns and Kho people and Kalash, including Northern/Eastern/Southern Pashtuns. They are also equally as West Eurasian as these groups in admixture and Oracles.
Therefore, within South Asia, Pashtuns/Pakhtuns/Kho/Chitrali and Jaat/Ror/Kamboja/Khatri/Sindhi/Arain/Kalash are all within the same West Eurasian cluster. The maps above show this as well.
Link to Admixture averages:
SisBA2 is ~25% AASI. Han is either noise (for Jaats) or present at minor amounts (for Pashtuns/Kho/Chitralis). Adding up AASI and Han, along with any minor ENA in Anatolia gives the same 85-90% range for all aforementioned NW South Asian populations, from Jaats/Jats to the Pashtuns, Kambojas and others.
Just a note on AASI:
It seems that there are different ‘strains’ of AASI in South Asia/India, with at least three or four different localized variants of it in the subcontinent, at least going by what I’ve read.
The Southern AASI strain best models South Indians and tribals and harbors some additional Hohabinhian and actual Onge like admixture that is completely absent in the NW and Northern AASI strains. This is according to the admixture model.
There also seems to be an Eastern AASI strain that harbors some Austroasiatic and SE Asian type admixture which is absent among NW and Northern AASI.
Finally, the NW AASI strain is the only one shared with West Eurasians. It also appears to have a different phenotype from the other AASI strains, at least based on the appearance of AASI heavy indigenes in the NW region of South Asia.
This means AASI has huge diversity in phenotype and genotype within South Asia and mixing with a different AASI strain will have a big impact on phenotype. Perhaps why South Indian Brahmins (and indeed all South Indians) have a distinctive look that other Brahmins lack and South Asians lack. Also why Bengalis/East Indians tend to be distinctive as well.
AASI also has zero relationship to Onge/Andamanese people, and this is true for all strains of AASI. Tibetans and certain SE Asians are far closer to Onge than AASI. Only the Southern AASI strain has some extra admixture from an Onge like source, but it isn’t directly derived from it fully.
Britain went from from a creditor nation to a debtor nation. Was it because of corruption, mismanagement and privatization.
Privatization is white washed, rebranded corruption.
Stealing public assets into private pockets.
Now to corruption and mismanagement in the UK.
The UK amassed huge wealth stealing from the colonies. Worse they were drug dealers in a huge scale. eg Opium wars, where US, UK forced China to buy Opium in exchange for their industrialized goods. Yes, China was more industrialized than UK in the past. They made China a country of drug addicts and Chinas society collapsed. China only recovered in the 70’s and is now a world power leaving UK in the dust.
For corruption and mismanagement look no further than COVID deaths. Despite colossal amounts of money spent there were 188,242 deaths (2,742/1M) compared to Sri Lankas 16.700 deaths (773/1M). The beauty is how the corruption and mismanagement is papered over, by calling it privatization (the same in US). Heads should roll for the number of deaths essentially a war crime but the uK population is gullible and bamboozled.
Despite all the wealth obtained by rape and pillage of the colonies the UK is in debt 2,233 billion (103.7% of GDP). 27% of UK debt was overseas-owned, and China was the largest single country in that figure. That suggests that China might own about 15% of UK debt — so about 267 billion.
Many of its iconic cars have been sold. eg Jaguar Land Rover (India), MG (china), Mini and Rolls-Royce (Germany/BMW), Bentley (Germany/VW). Its a good possibility the German acquisitions too will need to be sold with the energy shortage and economic collapse. Probably to China or even Russia they are both awash in money. The wheel turns, the wealth obtained by rape and pillage is returning to the East.
.
NOTE: not a reflection on the Queen. She was a titular head and not a driver of policy.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicspending/bulletins/ukgovernmentdebtanddeficitforeurostatmaast/september2021
lubos motl has shut down the blog.
Who comes up with these stupid ideas.
The first question that should be asked is the price cap only on Russian Oil.
Here is a scenario Russia does not export at or below price cap to EU. That shortfall will need to be covered, say from mid east oil. Russia sells to mid east above price cap. Mid east sells above price cap+markup+transportation (compared to pipe line delivery).
Whats even more stupider is that EU did not want long term contracts for gas and oil. On advice from US/Wall Street they only wanted on oil/gas on spot price.
Its ching ching to Russia.
https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/us-treasury-russian-oil-price-cap-guidance-gives-safe-harbor-maritime-service-2022-09-09/
Recent HDI rankings were released and India dropped from a value of 0.645 to 0.633 and ranks at 132. I believe a significant cause is the decline in life expectancy. An average Indian will now only live for 67.2 years, 3 years less than an Iraqi, almost 5 years less than a Bangladeshi, and almost 10 years less than a Sri Lankan on average.
As I was going through the rankings, one more interesting tidbit is the mean years of schooling in India- which is just 6.7 years, lower than Palestine, Lebanon or any of the war torn countries. It’s even lower than Iraq which has mean school years of 7.9.
This is just decades and decades of neglect for providing even the most basic services. Really puts in perspective all the hoopla and chest thumping about being the 5th biggest economy.
While I agree with your comment in general, the figure 1 billion should give us a pause / perspective.
And China should not be a frame of reference.
when one is talking of India, one has to talk of individual states, it is too big to compare to those countries. averages mask accountability.
Was the decline in life expectancy due to COVID?
What data do they use to calculate India’s HDI given that India has not undertaken a census in more than a decade?
it would be great if people held the union government accountable for such abysmal results. large swathes of india are worse than the poorest subsaharan african countries and war-torn countries.
but the sycophants will always come up with excuses. it’s all manmohan singh’s fault, it will take a while to recover! if that fails, it’s all nehru’s fault, hindoo rate of growth, grr! and if that fails, then it’s aurangzeb’s fault.
I want to be on record, i was the only one on this site who wondered whether ukraine was not going easily for russia, i did think it could be an ambush. but then again, the peer pressure in here got me to think russia would win for sure. I blame you all in here.
“I see perhaps US expected russia to do this and planned and prepared ukraine in laying a trap in frustrating russia…”
“I still consider this as advantage russia. Given their army and capabilities as better overall. But I doubt whether they have clear goals on what to achieve and wonder whether their soldiers are prepared to being ruthless.
But I now see this as russia committed itself to this completely. It is always better to find a face saver for all sides. Also, I find ukraine really dumb for accepting these risks.”
“I remember new democracy metrics have been created, even for america in 1940’s are considered as not democracy. Only democracy that is valid according to them is liberal democracy. Regime change wars/ demography change wars. Constant conflict by col peters in 1997 has come true. Liberal imperialism. Same with russia. In fact now that I see, here is how i join the dots.
From 2003 onwards America calculated (they have supercomputers to calculate different scenarios. In fact one of their machines predicted charan singh to become pm of India). Not that they give absolute correct prediction. But they must have seen that with rising china, in about 50 yrs china would become what it is today, simple compound interest will tell you that. Same with India, in 50 yrs, India probably will hit 16 trillion dollar economy. Given this scenarios, they needed to remove autocratic governments because china by itself has zero role in world, but with enough chess pieces on the board, china can cause some harm. So, perhaps, this was the reason why america went about getting rid of saddam, gadafi, and have been trying regime change wars in russia, and trying to either facilitate demographic change in India or regime change in India. Bcos in about another 50 yrs, world might get a lot more complicated. I just never understood america wasting away its resoures in the naughts, libya, iraq etc and now even russia, there is a thread on twitter that points to how every tom dick and harry saw ukraine joining nato would lead to war with russia. So, why do it?. Because russia is a very important piece in geostrategic chess board and in future, china might use it, unless, they get rid off it or diminish it.?
For some reason, I feel I have hit upon a deep truth about america. Perhaps they have been playing on the future 50 yrs geostrategic board ?. After all, that is what their strategic literature always focusses on future scenarios. Also, america is now calling the bluff on nukes, why this chutzpah? . Why does it not respect others security interests/ balance of power?. Liberal internationalism is aggressive,bold, is time running out for powr differnce us engoyed?”
Third paragraph was my hottest take and an inspired one. I am forced to admit, liberal internationalism is bold. I expect a serious change now only after 2100. It is not enough to be a super power, one needs to have big buffers before one takes on US led world.
Doubt anyone is thinking this hard at the State Department. All the Kagans and Frums are just midwits focusing on basic personal advancement.
Though, there once were genuinely smart and virtuous people running US foreign policy. But that ended with the generation that won US, the Second World War. America until then was a rising power, like China or India today, competing against the established European powers. To rise, you need smart people. But since 1945, America has been on easy mode. It’s the top dog. That results in a State Department full of Kagans rather than Kennans.
Perhaps, the experience of America can serve as a warning to China/India/Russia who themselves want to reach the top. Once you reach the top, it’s all downhill.
phyeco1
some of the many factors and cold hard reality you are not thinking about
a) the biggest, the US is running on debt with ever increasing trade deficits.
Not sustainable as US is a very complex society needing ever increasing inputs.
b) The US is no longer a manufacturing country, specially needs.
Heck, no one needs their overpriced military stuff either.
The only countries that buy are those that think there is a guarantee.
i.e. That is the US will step in in a conflict (eg Taiwan)
facebook, google are wants not needs for a tiny proportion of worlds population.
c) Russia is awash in natural resources over and above its needs.
It has not even tapped its Siberian/Arctic resources either.
eg. Oil, gas and Uranium absolute needs for everyone
Yeah, the US would love to break up Russia into small states and get at their goodies, i.e. natural resources.
d) The Chinese Russian nexus means China get resources to continue be the foremost manufacturing producer for the world.
In contrast, Europe is cutting its foot by sanctioning cheap Russian energy.
That means manufacturing is either going to very expensive and/or go out of business. There is only so many months/years they can be bailed out by the govts.
@sbarrkum
Keep in mind, America also has a lot of natural resources comparable to Russia. And if you include Canada, which for all practical purposes is just a state of the US, then the country is mostly self-sufficient with regards to resources. And there is a large faction of the North American population that is willing to invest in and do the dirty work of extracting those resources if only allowed by the government. The Shale Revolution of 2010s comes to mind.
Europe on the other hand is a lost case, I agree. I genuinly do not understand these people. They seem to think that its their current moral “superiority” that results in their wealth. Both the government and the people are nuts.
Whats gonna happen, I think is that the remaining manufacturing in Europe will move to America where energy is much cheaper. Moving to China or heck even other parts of Asia is out of question. That era is of globalization is over. US has drawn the line and all the Western capital will stay increasingly stay within the region.
I agree with what you’re saying asides from what HJ has touched upon, but the US is no slouch in manufacturing. It’s second in the world in manufacturing output despite having a billion less people than China.
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NV.IND.MANF.CD?most_recent_value_desc=true
well, empirical evidence suggests, they are thinking this hard. left afhanistan to bait putin into ukraine. trained ukraine troops for ambush. With putin old and a catastrophe in war with ukraine, his legacy will be tarnished, and he will be too old/sick(i hear cancer) to change it. And with sanctions on russia, it creates perfect breeding ground for a color revolution. China needs to make sure this does not happen. But that would mean it has to invest in russia. US recently gave 450 million dollars for f 16 in pakistan under guise of fighting terrorism leaving many experts scratching heads. Clearly, these f16s are meant to bolster pak vs India. America sees all these as frenemies, and wants to use each of these to check the others. A theory I read from some foreign policy expert. China uses russia to keep europe occupied, US uses India to keep china occupied, china and us use pak to keep India occupied. essentially, all non US powers are left in a mexican stand off with each other and america keeps suppling arms.
To @sbarrkum , I just dont see US declining. As pointed out, they do have natural resources and can also tap into gulf country or lift bans on venezuela and reach agreement there. saudis also are people they can depend on for now. Their scientific/technology/economy/military class in number one. I now see wokeism as useful export by USA to disorient other countries, there is backfire as well but it will hurt USA much less than other countries. Anyone who thinks nyt or other news agencies in usa work independently of us intel/ govt are lying to themselves.
“Spy Schools: How the CIA, FBI, and Foreign Intelligence Secretly Exploit America’s Universities ”
did not read the book, but it answers that usa and other intelligence agencies use universities to recruit people. They even offer seats in universities to children of defectors and spies as a tactic to recruit them.
Today, one has to give credit to usa where they did outthink their opponents. The whole ukraine thing had my spider tingle go off, it was obvious that after afghanistan withdrawal, one should expect some initiative from either china or russia, of which putin leading russia would have been an ideal candidate to set an ambush for. putin took his chance( should have worked on a face saving deal instead perhaps). I am confident that US is as terrifying as the results have shown over past 100 yrs. They did not lose their ability to think things through, though have been lazy at times or indiscriminate.
I want all this to be true, and really hope the us deep state is secretly playing 4d chess. I just dont think that is the case.
You have heard of the old maxim: “never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
Perhaps we can modify it: “never attribute competence to that which is adequately explained by luck”.
to sumit, to differentiate malice/stupidity might be confusing, but luck and competence are easy to differentiate. luck is sporadic, it doesnt guarantees victory unless everything else is put in place. incompetent people cannot get that lucky for that long.
Hey Razib and other folks, I hope you’ll answer some questions I have.
Q: Yamnaya is 50-55% EHG and 45-50% CHG/Iran_Chl related; while, EHG in Russian Steppe had a quarter of CHG ancestry. So, does Yamnaya have more CHG type ancestry than EHG ancestry in total if CHG in EHG is also taken into account or did the CHG type ancestry get diluted in EHG before forming Yamnaya with CHG/Iran_Chl?
Q. Were battle axe culture in Scandinavia and bell beaker culture in the UK similar in terms of pigmentations?
Q. Did a ANE rich population (60%+) ever live in South Asia?
Q. Did Y-DNA haplogroup R2 in Iran_hg came from ANE?
Some fun stuff for the weekend.
Munneswaram
Munneswaram, along with Koneswaram (Trincomalee), Naguleswaram (Keerimalai), Thiruketheeshwaram (Mannar), forms the five ancient temples (Ishwarams) dedicated to Shiva in the region including Sri Lanka.
The Kali temple is also popular with Buddhists, who frequent the complex. Post-19th century, most of the devotees of all temples in the complex belong to the majority Sinhala Buddhist ethnic group; the temples, excluding the Ayyanayake and the Buddhist temple, are administered by families belonging to the minority Hindu Tamils.
The Kali temple is a popular sorcery and cursing shrine associated with animal sacrifices and spirit possession. Spirit possession of devotees was noted by the Jesuit priests who left behind records of it in the 16th century.
Devotees approaching the Goddess The music is Kaavadi, the same genre as in cricket matches and parties (called Papare at cricket matches)
These are paid dancers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YqdHls8Ydw
The main act, the businessman/(or thug) approaching with wife (in green blouse)
Note: Sinhalese dont do serious vows like body piercing.
To me this whole thing looks like they are at a party/disco.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zovnz4PmdLg
Munneswaram.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munneswaram_temple
In the Deep South, Devinuwara Sri Vishnu temple festival.
This is the tourist heavy stretch coastline.
So guess many here are part of tourist industry.
Same party atmosphere.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxaJt5XWiG4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1pkt6nmlss
For comparison Kavadi in Jaffna
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-93iyo8I_8
I posted this to show no Hindu or Tamil antipathy in SL
Anti separatism no question.
When searching for Kavadi was surprised at the number of Kali Temples all over SL.
And then you get kavadi music at cricket matches.
Then its called Papare.
The two links below are from the school big matches.
I went to one of the schools.
We start early, for me first big match was grade 6 age 11.
Grade 9, age 14 get drunk and enjoy the Papare.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmraCY_uwfw&
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGKnB1VhcBA
As the end of the day approaches, the music intensifies and most are drunk.
By this time of the day, I’ll be the guy without a shirt.
Three days of non stop drinking. Dont have the energy any longer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrhvOI6YTYQ&t=73s
this is kavadi in Matale, near Kandy. (Central Highlands)
Indian origin Estate Tamils.
Serious stuff, the Sinhalese commenting in the audience is shocked.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lN2w1EZKPkw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrqgubbPQhs
Getting ready, i.e. piercing the body.
Kondavil Kali Kovil, Jaffna
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJ0duJv0gLA&t=202s
part2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwQGPuH6dX4
Note the Sinhalese Kavadi/Papare is a mixture of the original Hindu Kavadi with high pitched sax like instruments and Portuguese funeral/catholic processions with trumpets (like big bands). Trust the Sinhalese to take both and make into fun music.
@Sumit
Gujus embrace the IVC
https://swarajyamag.com/culture/national-maritime-heritage-complex-to-be-built-at-gujarats-lothal-at-a-cost-of-rs-3500-crore
No. It’s Gujaratis screwing Indian taxpayers outside Gujarat. The amount of taxpayer funds spent on the Ahmedabad bullet train, Patel statue and now this is obscene.
Patel statue was dumb but 90% state government, 4% private. 6% centre.
Mumbai-Ahmedabad HSR is funded by a very low interest INR denominated (money printer go burr) loan from Japanese Gov and is probably first of many HSR systems in various stages of construction.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_high-speed_railway_lines_in_India
Delhi metro opened ~20 years ago and was quite novel in India at the time, but now popping up in every city India.
That’s what I don’t get. If a state generates enough money, then they can put a statue in every nook and corner. Tamil Nadu produces enough to give out color televisions and grinders to its populace. It also gives out scooty to girls , while poorer Bihar is giving out cycles.
No body bats an eye lid when Delhi metro opened essentially from equal center and state resources even though Delhi as a state had enough money to bankroll it.
Nobody knows the total amount contributed by PSU’s to the construction of the Patel statue. The Ahmedabad bullet train is funded by an 6,000 crore loan from Japan but it has to be paid back. Is the state of Gujarat or the Centre going to pay back the loan? The godi media gives the impression the bullet train will be built with free money from Japan.
https://www.rbi.org.in/Scripts/BS_ViewBulletin.aspx?Id=21070
Data doesn’t back up your points. But ok, stay mad. Maybe vote Congress too. They will save you. Or better yet AAP. Capital investment= bad. Constant freebies, regardless of economic status= good.
the sad part of the Gujarat bias is that Modi has picked a terrible Gujarati architect for all his big projects. Central Vista, Kashi Corridor come to mind. The latter is so poorly done, the columns and pillars look like a very cheap imitation of Graeco-Roman architecture.
Lol sounds like more of a bad taste in architects. There are great Gujarati ones too. Not saying there isn’t Gujarati bias (there is) but the main driver seems of had architecture seems more bad taste than ethnic preference, unless one were to believe that all Gujarati architects suck and therefore by virtue of picking one, the projects would all suck.
This would be like Kennedy picking a Catholic architect who happened to suck and then blaming it on mostly the fact that he picked a catholic. The assertion is kind of dick itself, without acknowledging the full context. It is literally bigoted because it paints an entire group of people with one broad brush.
lol yea that was a reach! but still. such bad aesthetics, ugh.
with reference to local congress arranging meeting with a rabid anti hindu christian padre:
1) it appears now that congress has joined the battle for christian votes in tamilnadu.
2) the elite christians of kerala appear not too confrontational with bjp. in absence of an elite christian group in tamilnadu, the fight for their votes is between dmk and congress. are nadar christians considered elite in tamilnadu?
3) hindus need a so called ‘standard hindu narrative’ vis-a vis christianity and islam.
News on India’s EV revolution –
– Ather Energy sold 50000 EV scooters cumulatively at the end of August. The first 10K took 35 months. The last 10K took 2 months! This IIT Madras startup (and Bengaluru HQ’ed) is going places…
– KPIT Technologies of Pune, a Tier 1 supplier to Global EV companies in the area of software defined automobiles, has patented its sodium-ion battery and is looking for prototype production. Sodium-Ion is 40-50% cheaper than a Lithium ion battery.
– Faradion, the leader in research for sodium-ion batteries, has been acquired by Ambani (Reliance Industries) who is trying to enter battery production.
– The newly appointed Director-General of CSIR is Dr. Kalaiselvi who is a specialist in fundamental battery research.
There you have it……perfect indicators of a growing ecosystem by both government and private initiatives. If things come to fruition, we should see a complete exit of ICE engines from the 2-wheeler space in the next 10 years.
The last great technological revolution in India was the mobile telecom (scams included). We put a phone/internet/digital money in almost every Indian’s hand in just 15 years.
Seems some people are really trying to create a Hindutva boogeyman in the West.
Someone is distributing a clearly fake death threat being circulated as being attributed to a hindutva supporter.
The whole thing is comically fake to anyone familiar with how hindutva ppl talk / what memes they care about. For eg. they wouldn’t say it has “defamed Hindutva ideology” would just say it has insulted the “goddess Kali / Hinduism”.
But people on r/ontario seem to believe it is true
https://www.reddit.com/r/ontario/comments/xbidf1/this_insanity_is_being_delivered_in_etobicoke/
r/abcds is more aware but some still believe
https://www.reddit.com/r/ABCDesis/comments/xbveae/this_is_being_distributed_to_homes_in_ontario/
This kinda stuff is why I am convinced the caste stuff bubbling up of late will just be a tool for anti-brown and anti-hind bigotry.
Really hope the perp is caught.
This is scary and disgusting. On the one hand, it’s so poorly done that hopefully the record will be set straight. On the other hand, the anti-Hindu rhetoric has worked and many non-Hindus seem to be falling for this in r/ontario.
99% likely it’s a Khalistani behind it.
Pak nationalists and Khalistani element of Sikh diaspora is WAY better at propaganda. Their youth are WAY more loyal to their causes, even in 2nd and 3rd gen. Deracination is way more an Indian Hindu diaspora thing. Wokeness is going to screw Hindu Indian diaspora.
Look at forums like reddit. You see a ton of activity from aforementioned groups. They are WAY more into homeland politics and super engaged. So they disproportionately have an impact on the narrative in the West.
What is considered “uncle stuff” for most of the youth in Hindu community is considered part of the “woke activist” package in the others. The mobilization at the ground level is wild. It is crazy to gangs of 2nd 3rd gen Punjabis brag about “Jatt” and vandalize Gandhi statues. You can tell how their upbringing didn’t stamp put the anti social behavior that led to their gang proclivities, yet somehow maintained the ethno supremacy and religious hate. That is some powerful voodoo.
I mean look at the recent Fremont Taco Bell incident. It is an embodiment of what is going on. Looking at the location of this crap, I have a pretty good sense of the type of forces that are behind this BS. Biradri ethonosupremacy may be in check in India and Pak from other forces. But it runs the show in inter desi Canadian politics and some regions of NorCal. Add in some of the Christian activism missionary politics with vested Pak nationalist interest and you get a pretty powerful force to malign the Hindu anglophone diaspora.
Thought experiment: Would India have turned out differently if it had remained a symbolic constitutional monarchy rather than becoming a republic when it gained independence from England?
Given the negligible formal power of a constitutional monarchy, you wouldn’t think so, but I’m not convinced that the symbolism wouldn’t have caused some changes.
Alternatively, what if it had stayed a constitutional monarchy, but with an Indian monarch rather than a British one?
The Rise and Fall of Imran Khan
The saga of the Pakistani prime minister is a testament to the challenges populist reformers face when they gain political power.
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/the-rise-and-fall-of-imran-khan/
Excellent work Modi
https://swarajyamag.com/politics/modi-likely-to-achieve-what-no-one-before-him-has-solve-the-naga-issue-and-bring-lasting-peace-to-north-east
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wionews.com/south-asia/imran-khan-meets-former-cia-analyst-after-accusing-us-led-conspiracy-for-his-ouster-515474/amp
He learning
Long time reader maybe my 1st post(unless I commented 3 years back, maybe I did)
I don’t think the samples that HarappaWorld has or whatever represents most Bengali Brahmins. I’ve been scrolling through Google Images browsing through different “Chatterjees” and “Mukherjees” both of which are as you know Kulin Bengali Brahmin names and honestly I’ve come to the conclusion that yes, some of them do have less Mong but a very significant percentage of them have more Mong than me, someone who has 16% Mongoloid(NE Asian+SE Asian+Siberian). I’ve been thought to be Mestizo or Nepali in the past too so I guess some do see the Mongoloid admixture in me. Anyways, yeah a lot of the Bengali Brahmins look Asiatic/Mongoloid af and I find it hard to believe that all of them have around 5% Mong LOL that is way too little, wayyyy too much of an exaggeration. They’re either similar to me or MORE in terms of Mong.
Some people might say phenotype isn’t genotype but seriously it is. You can’t use exceptions to say that a rule doesn’t apply lol your phenotype IS your genotype, ofc ur gonna get exceptions in a population of 8 billion, doesn’t mean it changes anything. 5% Mong is CERTAINLY not enough to sway someone’s appearance that much, in such a large number of people. There’s just not enough samples.
Also I dunno if Mr. Razib cares about this dna stuff much these days but my ancestral origins on both sides are in Rangpur Division, specifically in a district called Dinajpur. In the past it was part of Kamrup and Kamata Kingdom and then the Mughals in 1686 but I’ve only seen one result from that part of Bangladesh before and incidentally enough that person had similar results to mine lol and I’m talking about HarappaWorld too. I was actually talking to this Bengali Brahmin dude on Reddit a while back cuz he got 12% EHG on IllustrativeDNA while I got 13.6% and it was weird to me.
Anyways my result is
ASI= 42.81%
Baloch= 27.23%
Caucasian= 5.98%
NE Euro= 4.54%
SE Asian= 6.21%
NE Asian= 9.16%
Papuan= 0.77%
American= 0.27%
Beringian= 0.74%
Mediterranean= 0.26%
San= 0.19%
I also get like 19.4% Turkic+Mongol on the Turkic k11 calculator which is insane and corrobarates what my parents have told me.
Also on Vahaduo my sample can be modelled as this with scaled G25coordinates and samples with a distance of 2.0451
IND_Roopkund_A: 76.4
KAZ_Karakhanid: 13.4
Roopkund C: 6.6
KAZ_Karluk: 3.6
13.4+3.6= 17% Turkic
Even with a 2 way model with IND_Roopkund_A and KAZ_Karluk I get a distance of 2.4373 which it itself pretty close
IND_Roopkund_A: 72.4
KAZ_Karluk: 27.6
And these models are corroborated by IllustrativeDNA mixed mode stuff ofc as well as the Turkic k11 calculator on yourdnaportal and genoplot. I got much higher Turkic than even a lot of Turks lol and pretty much all of the ppl who posted here(31 pages)
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?195528-How-T%FCrkic-are-you-Post-your-Turkic-K11-results
So yeah guess my parents weren’t lying lol pretty surprising stuff. I’m Bengali btw Razib pls talk more about Bengali genetics/genealogy/ancestry your posts on that stuff were amazing
Aw man why was I comment moderated, there were no bad words or anything breaking the rules 🙁
yeah so pretty much I don’t think the Bengali Brahmin samples on HarappaWorld and stuff don’t reflect the diversity of the population. Been scrolling through google images and seeing many Chatterjees and Mukherjees etc and yes there are some who do look more North than Bengali but quite a significant amount look regular Bengali or even a more Mongoloid-enriched Bengali. No way they would have 5% or less Mong admix tbh people say phenotype isn’t genotype but you can’t have phenotype without genotype and exceptions to a rule doesn’t mean the rule is invalid or doesn’t apply, everything has an exception and you will always get outliers in a population of 8+ billion people. I don’t buy that that these guys and girls who look straight up more Asiatic than me and other Bengalis have low amounts of Mong, there are levels to this, it’s just not plausible. There just isn’t enough samples for Bengali Brahmins is all.
I’m a Bengali with ancestral origins from Dinajpur, which is in Rangpur Bangladesh (North Bengal) and the only other Harappaworld result I’ve seen from there was actually quite similar to mine lmao it was an HRP0 something I forget. Region was part of Kamarupa and Kamata Kingdom etc in the past and then the Mughals in 1686. My three closest populations were Bengalis, Bengali Brahmins and Biharis so clearly I’ve got a bit of a point.
My result lol I got like 17% Mong which is like much higher than the 13% that regular Bengalis get hahahaha but the other Rangpur result had an 18% number as well. He also got like 4% Caucasian and I got 6% which is strange cuz Bengalis get 0% or 1%
ASI= 42.81
Baloch= 27.23
Caucasian= 5.98
NE Euro= 4.54
SE Asian= 6.21
Siberian= 1.84
NE Asia= 9.16
Papuan= 0.77
American= 0.27
Beringian= 0.74
Mediterranean= 0.26
San= 0.19
Interesting then it seems there is significant variance among the Bengali brahmins.
I always thought West Bengal CM Mamta Banerjee looked quite south East Asian despite being a Brahmin
Sumit,
Yeah Mamata Banerjee is just one of many examples of what I was talking about. I’m not Bengali Brahmin btw fyi don’t know if I confused you all but I was talking about myself being a standard Bengali dude, a non-Kulin Brahmin person/person with that ancestry.
@Pencil
Would you mind posting your picture so we can compare and see if your genotype matches your phenotype? Would be interesting to compare to other Bengali Brahmins, and see if higher Mongoloid percentages affect the phenotype greatly.
I have seen Bengali Brahmins who looked like North/Central Indians, both Bihari Brahmins, Bhumihars and even some that look similar to some UP Brahmins, so there must be a lot of diversity in their phenotype based on how much AASI/East/SE Asian admixture they have. On average though, I believe they are as West Eurasian as Iyers.
Racelearner,
I’m a regular Bengali, I’m not of Kulin brahmin heritage as I mentioned in the comment.
I’m thinking about posting a picture or two but I need to find a site that I can delete from. Maybe I’ll just accept using IMGUR but I dont like how they now make you give them your phone number
Sri Lanka wins Asian Netball Championship for 2nd year running.
Probably thanks to evergreen, 2.06m (6′ 9″) -tall goal shooter Tharjini Sivalingam. She is retiring this year as she is turning 45, Wonder how SL will do without her.
Tharjini Sivalingam another Sri Lankan Tamil doing SL proud.
she has been recognized as one of the most successful shooters of all time and often regarded as the tallest netball player ever. She is the most capped international netball player to represent Sri Lanka.
She also faced many hardships in her childhood as she grew up in warzone.
she holds a degree in Economics from the Eastern University in Batticaloa
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tharjini_Sivalingam
https://news.yahoo.com/asian-netball-championship-sri-lanka-step-too-far-singapore-131001890.html
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1986-12-01-mn-198-story.html
Never forget.
Brown on Brown crime. Unless a NW South Asian was involved. Then it’s Brown on Olive/White-adjacent crime. Or unless a Mongoloid admixed ethnicity was involved (Nepali and Himachali, Assamese Hindus) then it’s Brown on Yellow crime. Or maybe both parties involved were Yellow, or Olive or even White? For a Pan-Brown poster you sure seem to bring up a lot of unnecessary past incidents. The truth is there is no such thing as pan Brown unity. NW South Asians (Afghan, Pakistani and NW Indian) are White on arrival in the USA. Just like NE Indians and Nepalis and many Bengalis and Hill state Indians and Turkic Afghans and Pakis are Asian (specifically East Asian) on arrival in the USA. And just like most Gujjus are like non-White Latinos and Hispanics on arrival in the USA. And just like some Gujjus and South and East Indians and more generally, Dravidians, are “Indian” and /or mixed Black Latinos on arrival in the USA. Water finds it own level. And so does biologically determined race, which is a reflection of your DNA. No point wasting time trying to foist an artificial brown identity upon 2 Billion plus people where there is no such thing to begin with.
Even the US Census Bureau specifically states that the term “Asian Indian” on the US census race classification form is “not a meaningful description of racial ancestral or ethnic heritage and does not have any biological or scientific meaning”.
Not only that, but multiple research papers and studies conducted by the US Census Bureau and other organizations in the US including the FBI, have all come to the same conclusion: that “Asian Indian” is not a race or an ethnic group and that South Asians are free to self identify as the racial and ethnic group that best fits their ancestry and race. We all know that it was Gujaratis that sought to change the racial classification of South Asians from “White” which is what it used to be in 1970, to “Asian Indian“ in an attempt to get low interest SBA loans from the Reagan administration.
Through their efforts and petitioning, after 10 Long years, they successfully managed to create a contrived race classification box on the US census for their own selfish needs in 1980, as is typical for the Gujarati mindset. They didn’t care a tiny bit for the interests of other South Asians, be they East Asian or SE Asian, or Dravidian or Caucasian racially.
What’s even more curious is the fact that they refused to co-opt the already existing categories for race in the US census. They could’ve easily chosen to fit in as non-white Latinos/Hispanics. Because that is what they look like by and large, and all they have to do is adopt new names, something most already do by anglicizing it in subsequent generations. They already follow American culture or are supposed to and religion is a non-issue in the United States. After all, being Latino/Hispanic is about following a particular culture. And that culture is very mutable in the United States, so as long as you look like you can pass for Latino and you have a particular name that fits, shit you don’t even need a Latino name, then that’s what you are racially and scientifically.
My theory is that they were ashamed to be put in the same category as Latinos, as perhaps they look down upon them because they tend to be of a different socioeconomic class typically. Perhaps they forgot about the fact that there are also white Latinos and Hispanics, both in their own subcontinent and in Latin America. So Kal Penn AKA Kalpen Modi is just a non-white Latino by a different name. If he hadn’t sold himself as a stereotypical Indian by starring in movies where a south Indian surname is used to represent all South Asians I guarantee you no one would’ve ever thought he was Indian. I’m sure you also look like a typical non-white Latino, likely an indigenous or mestizo Latino as that is what 90% of Gujaratis are. Harnizo is unlikely but still possible, like Priti Patel or Amisha Patel and Aditya Pancholi. And Castizo like Mahesh Bhatt is very unlikely unless you are a Gujarati Brahmin or other High Caste. No Criollos in Gujarat except Parsis like Rohinton Patel, DDS, and merchant Khatris, who are not native to Gujarat. Besides, if you were a Castizo or a Criolo you wouldn’t be so complexed about your identity, so I have my money on the fact that your mestizo; Harnizo would be very unlikely but still somewhat possible.
BTW look up “Parag Khanna TED talk Asia” and watch his TED talk. He explains how Indian is a menangless term and how we are all different from each other and mixed with different things. No one thinks he looks Indian, even in India, forget about the US. He took a DNA test and was 83% West Eurasian or Caucasian. That makes him a castizo genetically and he looks like one too. In the US he fits in perfectly as a Castizo American who can even be white passing.
Even Nikki Haley who is a Castizo, and Preet Bharara, who is also a Castizo are considered white in the US by other white people. Whereas Nirav Tolia is considered a non-white Hispanic/Latino who insists upon being “Indian” when in reality he’s no longer Indian as that is nothing but a nationality and the Indian government will not come and save his ass when he is moored on an island And will refuse to consider him an Indian. It’s pathetic that he sticks to that identity when in reality he is now just a non-white Hispanic American— that is the true biologic and legal and scientific reality of his identity and he better get used to it. It’s like a non-white indigenous American coming to the US and having children and then telling his own children that they are not Hispanic American but Mexican American. Just complete nonsense.
LMAO! The concept of race is mostly meaningless in modern India.
Differences in India are along the religion/caste axis – which broadly fits under the “culture” umbrella.
Most of this race and ancestry schizo is courtesy Indian-Americans who feel lost without being grouped.
One of the funniest stories is of this Upper Caste Northwestern Indian. He may have thought he too was white on arrival, but perhaps not so much upon deportation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Bhagat_Singh_Thind
The guy tries to argue that he’s actually white, and therefore eligible for citizenship. They say, among other things…
– he did not meet the common sense definition of White
and
“The eligibility of this applicant for citizenship is based on the sole fact that he is of high caste Hindu stock, born in village Taragarh Talawa, Amritsar district, Punjab, one of the extreme north western districts of India, and classified by certain scientific authorities as of the Caucasian or Aryan race … In the Punjab and Rajputana, while the invaders seem to have met with more success in the effort to preserve their racial purity, intermarriages did occur producing an intermingling of the two and destroying to a greater or less degree the purity of the “Aryan” blood. The rules of caste, while calculated to prevent this intermixture, seem not to have been entirely successful … the given group cannot be properly assigned to any of the enumerated grand racial divisions. The type may have been so changed by intermixture of blood as to justify an intermediate classification. Something very like this has actually taken place in India. Thus, in Hindustan and Berar there was such an intermixture of the “Aryan” invader with the dark-skinned Dravidian.”
Lots of interesting concepts there to pick apart and get a sense of how early 20th century American elite thought of India.
100 years later, and Northwesterners still think like this.
To be fair, this isn’t everyone by any means. The loons are just expressive and misrepresent/misunderstand data nowadays to justify their preconceived notions. They think spazzing more will make people buy their BS more.
Lol, lot of gore talk in all folk songs. Then get a reality check in Canada and suddenly turn into “brown munde.” Good stuff
@Hoju
Even Italians and Lebanese Arabs and Palestinians and Afghans were not considered White by the Supreme Court in the time frame you are talking about. They had to contest in court to be assigned “White” status by fighting multiple court cases, with an anthropologist on hand to be given that status. Their entire community had to mobilize and come up with strategies to convince the court that they were “White” — using arguments like “Jesus was born in the Levant, so we are White” etc —- still, many were socially ostracized at the time and even lynched and banned from marrying others in certain states. And these are Europeans we are talking about. It took a long time for them to be considered White. In contrast, there were very few people from the Indian subcontinent in the US at the time, so no such community existed and moreover, there were no Northwesterners of Aryan descent present in any significant quantity needed to petition and campaign for their change of status.
Besides, Bhagat Singh Thind is just one case, and it is no surprise that he wasn’t considered White — after all, he looks like a Harnizo and is an admixed Sikh Jatt— there were multiple other cases where Indians were individually classified as “White” by the courts, you should look up the case law history to see that it was a case by case basis, no different from how other nationalities were treated. In fact, even in the South, multiple Indians were classified as “White” and allowed to use “White-only” facilities as they were looked upon as White by other Americans. Indians were treated so well that when an African American man wore a turban and went to the South, he was considered to be an exotic White man and allowed to freely use all White facilities. He even remarked that Whites told him that they hated African Americans but that he was a distinguished gentleman from India.
Furthermore, groups like Italians used Indian culture/image to further hasten their acceptance into American society— Rudolph Valentino dressed like a Maharaja and was considered an exotic man from the East, very popular with audiences. And just like Arabs and Northern Africans and Afghan and Latinos were eventually assigned “White” status, so were Indians — in fact, in the 1960s, my grandparents came to the US and were considered White on arrival — because by then, the US government had classified Indians as “White” — owing to the fact that immigration from India had increased enough to the point that the US government needed to classify them. So just like other West Eurasian Caucasoids living in Asia, Indians too were classified as White once their immigration reached critical mass. You only talk about a singular case in a particular context/time period in history, while neglecting to mention the whole timeline. You are likely a typical complexed and most likely indigenous South Asian who passes for a Dravidian. Don’t try to drag all of us down with you, it will never work.
Jaats and Khatris and Kambojas are 86 to 88-92% West Eurasian. We are White and cluster within range of other West Eurasians. This is according to the latest cutting edge science. Look at the admixture averages I listed above. Since AASI has West Eurasian in it as well, these values will only increase in the future. There are Russians and Turks that cluster next to us on PCA maps. So we are definitely White. Whiter than North Africans even, who are also considered White. Deal with its
@Hoju
BTW, he wasn’t deported. On the contrary, he was not only given citizenship soon after the case, he was a successful businessman in his own community, and he married a White woman and had kids with her, all of whom were considered White. Other South Asians were also able to petition to stay thanks to Ganesh Pandit, a lawyer in the US. And starting in the 1940s, Indians began immigrating to the US in larger numbers, thanks to a decision by the US Congress that recognized Indian independence. Perhaps you should do your research better. Then again, I expect no less from an incensed, complexed, emotional indigenous South Asian like yourself.
Over thinking?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.opindia.com/2022/09/dal-khalsa-terror-org-co-founder-who-hijacked-a-1981-indian-airlines-flight-found-living-in-pakistan/amp/
If course. This is a repeat thing.
Is there any research comparing the happiness of women of married vs unmarried women?
Trying to win an argument with a friend and all I find are junk Paul Dolan links.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10902-017-9941-3
Here is one
@Prats
A small aside, this gentleman seems awfully like ur friend who u met in Chennai.
https://thecommunemag.com/youre-a-shudra-prostitutes-son-till-youre-hindu-dmk-mp-2g-raja-yet-again-spews-venom-against-hinduism/
‘Speaking at the event, DMK MP A. Raja said “Viduthalai, Murasoli (DMK’s mouthpiece), Theekathir (Communist Party of India’s mouthpiece), and others should start asking – ‘Who is a Hindu?’. We should have the right to assert – ‘we don’t wish to be a Hindu, why are you keeping me as a Hindu?’.”
“You’re a Shudra till you remain a Hindu. You’re a son of the prostitute till you remain a Shudra. You’re a Panchaman (Dalit) till you remain a Hindu. You’re an untouchable till you remain a Hindu. How many of you wish to stay as children of prostitutes? How many of you wish to remain untouchable? Only if we’re vocal about these questions, it will become elemental in breaking Santhana (Sanatana Dharma).”
More Hindu-region i presume….
this gentleman seems awfully like ur friend who u met in Chennai
My friend is a pretty vocal Hindu.
I think midwit Dravidian elite wants to create a separate identity from Hinduism while most Tamils don’t care about that rhetoric.
I wouldn’t go far as to say ‘most Tamils don’t care about that rhetoric’, considering they have voted for the ideology since independence.
it is nearly impossible to argue with the tamil middle castes. they have political power with the vague ‘dravidian’ ideology and will not let go. many of them are devote hindus, but for the sake of political power, this strange ideology stays.
Devoutness is a meaningless measure.
One can argue that Bangladeshi Hindus or Pakistani Hindus are more “devout” than Indian Hindus, since they are a minority and cling to their faith more. What matters is political power which we all know where it rests in less Hindu areas.
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/jammu-and-kashmir-parties-to-oppose-non-local-voters-in-list-101662834732073.html
Lol they can try. One nation. It will happen. Family visited Indian Kashmir recently. Things are not perfect but a lot better than before the abrogation. Things will change. Just a matter of time
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11015899/amp/Man-acquitted-Air-India-bombings-shot-death-Canada.html
Indian deep state?
Even the US Census Bureau specifically states that the term “Asian Indian” on the US census race classification form is “not a meaningful description of racial ancestral or ethnic heritage and does not have any biological or scientific meaning”.
Not only that, but multiple research papers and studies conducted by the US Census Bureau and other organizations in the US including the FBI, have all come to the same conclusion: that “Asian Indian” is not a race or an ethnic group and that South Asians are free to self identify as the racial and ethnic group that best fits their ancestry and race. We all know that it was Gujaratis that sought to change the racial classification of South Asians from “White” which is what it used to be in 1970, to “Asian Indian“ in an attempt to get low interest SBA loans from the Reagan administration.
Through their efforts and petitioning, after 10 Long years, they successfully managed to create a contrived race classification box on the US census for their own selfish needs in 1980, as is typical for the Gujarati mindset. They didn’t care a tiny bit for the interests of other South Asians, be they East Asian or SE Asian, or Dravidian, or even Aryan/Caucasian racially. Without this action, we would still be considered “White” by the US government.
What’s even more curious is the fact that they refused to co-opt the already existing categories for race in the US census. They could’ve easily chosen to fit in as non-white Latinos/Hispanics. Because that is what they look like by and large, and all they have to do is adopt new names, something most already do by anglicizing it in subsequent generations. They already follow American culture or are supposed to and religion is a non-issue in the United States. After all, being Latino/Hispanic is about following a particular culture. And that culture is very mutable in the United States, so as long as you look like you can pass for Latino and you have a particular name that fits, shit you don’t even need a Latino name, then that’s what you are racially and scientifically.
My theory is that they were ashamed to be put in the same category as Latinos, as perhaps they look down upon them because they tend to be of a different socioeconomic class typically. Perhaps they forgot about the fact that there are also white Latinos and Hispanics, both in their own subcontinent and in Latin America. So Kal Penn (he anglicized his name) AKA Kalpen Modi is just a non-white Latino by a different name. If he hadn’t sold himself as a stereotypical Indian by starring in movies where a south Indian surname is used to represent all South Asians I guarantee you no one would’ve ever thought he was Indian. I’m sure you (thewarlock) also look like a typical non-white Latino, likely an indigenous or mestizo Latino as that is what 90% of Gujaratis are. Harnizo is unlikely but still possible, like Priti Patel or Amisha Patel and Aditya Pancholi. And Castizo like Mahesh Bhatt is very unlikely unless you are a Gujarati Brahmin or other High Caste. No Criollos in Gujarat except Parsis like Rohinton Patel, DDS, and merchant Khatris, who are not native to Gujarat. Besides, if you were a Castizo or a Criolo you wouldn’t be so complexed about your identity, so I have my money on the fact that your mestizo; Harnizo would be very unlikely but still somewhat possible.
BTW watch “Parag Khanna TED talk Asia”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=3715FIdHkJE
^^and watch his TED talk. He explains how Indian is a menangless term and how we are all different from each other and mixed with different things. No one thinks he looks Indian, even in India, forget about the US. He took a DNA test and was 83% West Eurasian or Caucasian. That makes him a castizo genetically and he looks like one too. In the US he fits in perfectly as a Castizo American who can even be white passing.
Even Nikki Haley who is a Castizo, and Preet Bharara, who is also a Castizo are considered white in the US by other white people. Whereas Nirav Tolia is considered a non-white Hispanic/Latino who insists upon being “Indian” when in reality he’s no longer Indian as that is nothing but a nationality and the Indian government will not come and save his ass when he is moored on an island And will refuse to consider him an Indian. It’s pathetic that he sticks to that identity when in reality he is now just a non-white Indigenous/Hispanic American— that is the true biologic and legal and scientific reality of his identity and he better get used to it. It’s like a non-white indigenous American coming to the US from Mexico and having children in the USA and then telling his own children that they are not Indigenous/Hispanic American but Mexican American. Just complete nonsense.
Even more absurd when you realize that the AASI range in South Asia is from 0% AASI to 85% AASI, not including NE and SE Asian admixture found in some groups, that also ranges from 0% E Asian to 99% E Asian. Jesus Christ, that’s like the difference between Han Chinese, Uyghurs, Uzbeks and Turkish people. Or like the difference between Kenyans, Somalians, Ethiopians, Eritreans, Suadanese, Moroccans and Egyptians. Might as well call all of Africa Black and all of Asia Han Chinese. And all of Latin America Indigenous American racially. Just insane logic to say South Asians are all the same. They never were and they never will be.
https://thediplomat.com/2022/09/implications-of-indias-agnipath-scheme-for-recruitment-of-soldiers-for-nepals-gurkhas/
Very real concerns. Especially Maoist part
https://www.google.com/amp/s/pix11.com/news/local-news/queens/82-year-old-man-beaten-robbed-on-queens-street-we-need-justice/amp/
Sad stuff. Guy 82.
LOL I already forgot my sign in details for the original account hahaha
Anyways playing around with Vahaduo is fun.
I can be modelled as 84.4 Bengali_Bangladesh, 10.4 Turkmen, and 5.2 Tibetan_Lhasa with a distance of 1.65%
By Latin American race standards my parents are an interracial couple.
But they from the same region and community in India.
Should I start identifying as mixed (west Eurasian and East Eurasian) or this weird European racial caste classification when people ask me my background ?
@Sumit
It’s quite simple really, if you look Caucasian/Middle Eastern/White, you can and should identify as one. Because if you are a member of one race that happens to be Caucasian, then that is what you are biologically and legally, and that is what the world will perceive you as, and consider you to be. And your phenotype/your parents’ phenotypes will reflect this biological/social truth as well.
On the other hand, if you look mixed and/or non-white, or non-Caucasian, then you should identify as a non-white Latino/Hispanic as that is what you would be considered as in the Americas and in Europe, being a mixed Eurasian.
Now if you have admixture from an Onge-like source AKA Hoabinhians and Jarawa, like many South Indians and Adivasis, Tribals, and Bengalis/Bangladeshis, then you can still pass as a non-white Latino, but depending on how much Onge like admixture you have, and depending on how your appearance is impacted, people might mistake you for Black-admixed Latino and/or the stereotypical “Dravidian/Sri Lankan/Tamil” look that some idiots think represents all South Asians and that has become infamous as the “Indian” look the world over. Good luck in that case, because Northern and Northwestern Indians/South Asians and indeed even Gujaratis don’t have any admixture from Jarawa and Hoabinhians and Onge-like sources and will never look like those Tamils/Bengalis/Tribals that do and will never have that problem as a result.
“ then you should identify as a non-white Latino/Hispanic ”
Thanks. I am going to start identifying as Latino / Hispanic going forward. Or perhaps Latinx to be more politically correct.
I don’t know genetics, so grateful that we have scientific race experts to help with this topic.
Thanks again!
I want my affirmative action and DEI position.
@Sumit
No worries my Latin brother. In South Asia, we are all Latinos, it’s just that some are White Latinos, some non-White Latinos, some Black Latinos, some Middle Eastern/Northern African Latinos and some East Asian Latinos. All depends on:
1) The strain of AASI you are mixed with (SE Asian)
2) How much AASI you are mixed with
3) What else you are mixed with (SSA, NE/SE Asian)
4) Whether you have additional Onge-like admixture
5) How much Steppe/Iran admixture you have
Here’s a 100% Gujarati couple that looks exactly like indigenous Americans/the Northern AASI strain:
https://drewaltizer.com/event/10506-sfmoma-modern-ball-art-museum-fundraiser-little-dragon-2018/photo/3581207-megha_tolia-nirav_tolia
Keep in mind, as outlined above, there are a lot of different AASI strains, and all strains look different from each other within South Asia due to divergent evolution/climate etc.m, in addition to possessing extra ENA admixture from other sources, depending on the strain. I will post examples of other AASI strains and how their progeny turn out when mixing with West Eurasians/Caucasians, both SouthCentral Asians within South Asia, and MENA and European folks as well. Stay tuned.
@Racelearner
You are delusional. LOL. You can cherrypick as much as you want but Indians and Pakis don’t look Latino. Here in Canada, anybody can tell the difference between an Indian and some other brown guy hahaha it’s why Brampton is clowned so often. They know what international students and Doordash delivery dudes look like.
Yeah bro Ro Khanna totally looks white bro not like a typical pajeet hahaha and he’s supposed to have less AASI cuz he’s a Punjabi Khatri.
Same goes for the US where those NW indians are called Rajesh and Baljeet and stereotyped, why do Indians try so hard to be someone they’re not especially these Punjabi pajeets when everyone can identify them from a mile away hahahaha this guy actually thinks he’s white or some weird Caucasian thing lol just bring that up in real life and watch how hard you get laughed at.
Even “Jatts” like Bindy Johal are easily identified as Indian I love how Indians in particular hate themselves so much that they try to LARP as other ethnicities lol you don’t see Sri Lankans, Bengalis or the Mauritians Guyanese Trinidadians or Fijans try this BS
lol one of them tried to pull this shit in court in the US and got rekt.
I was always intrigued by the fact that there are Khatris that look like Rahul Dev and Ranbir Kapoor/Raj Kapoor, while others look like Anindita Nayyar the Bollywood actress, like Ro Khanna the Congressman, and like Kunal Nayyar, the actor who plays Raj Koothrapalli on the Big Bang Theory.
They obviously look like members of two entirely different racial groups; one looks fully White/Caucasian of the Mediterranean, Iranid/Irano-Afghan/East Med branch, while the other three look fully like Latin/Hispanic Americans, either indigenous, for Ro and Kunal and Castizo for Anindita. Yet both groups claim to be Khatris. How could this be?
(Yes, if Anindita Nayyar and Ro Khanna and Kunal Nayyar went to Mexico/Latin America, people would speak to them in Spanish. Heck, even in North America, other Latinos would speak to them in Spanish/their mother tongue. They don’t even have to change their names, their phenotype/facial appearance/race is like that of Latin Americans. Changing their name would just confirm American suspicions that they are non-White Latinos/Hispanics. Khanna should join the Hispanic caucus, as that is his true community.)
Why/how could this be? Is it a magic trick or some random artifact of genetic recombination that Khatris look so different from each other? Is Jyoti Chopra of MGM (who looks White) the same genetically as Priyanka Chopra of Nick Jonas fame (who looks indigenous Latino), and they just happened to turn out looking like different races? Is Neera Tanden the same as Jay Tandon in Los Angeles? Or are the ones that look indigenous/non-White like Priyanka Chopra and Neera and others doing something far more sinister/stupid?
Well, the answer is just like I suspected for years/common sense: they are simply lying about their background/heritage. Who is lying? Well, my friends, it’s rather obvious isn’t it? Ro Khanna and Kunal Nayyar and Anindita Nayyar and Priyanka Chopra and others of their ilk are lying. And how do I know this to be true?
Two reasons. Firstly, the latest PCA plots show that there are not just one group of Khatris, but rather two or even three groups of Khatris. The first group clusters with other South Central Asians like Jaats, Rors, Jats, Kambojas, Sindhi UCs, Kalash, Kho, Chitrali, Pathans, Pashtuns and Pakhtuns and Tajiks, as well as certain POK Gujjars. This is the Caucasian/West Eurasian/Aryan group that looks like Raj Kapoor and Jay Tandon. Their entire family passes as White/Caucasian because they all share the same genetic background/heritage. They are 85%+ Caucasian/West Eurasian.
The second group of Khatris clusters near Gujarati Brahmins and the third group of Khatris clusters near Guptas and lower caste North Indians and East Indians. Corresponds perfectly to the phenotypes of Anindita Nayyar (Castizo like Gujarati Brahmins) and Kunal Nayyar and Ro Khanna (indigenous like Guptas and lower caste North Indians). What a beautiful coincidence! So what genetic analyses tell us is that Khatris are not a homogeneous group of people, with a range of AASI admixture from 12/13% to as much as 60-65% on the higher end. And this is reflected in their phenotypes. So the more mixed ones retain their Khatri identity (most likely they were never Khatris to begin with) despite being and looking nothing like Aryan/Caucasian Khatris.
The second reason is again related to the above: The group of Khatris that doesn’t look Caucasian/ white/Middle Eastern also has parents and grandparents and indeed great grandparents/past ancestors that don’t look like Caucasians either. Whereas the group of Khatris that looks Caucasian has consistency throughout their family with every member looking white/Middle Eastern and/or Caucasian for generations. This tells us that race phenotype and DNA are all correlated directly.
In South Asia, just like in other countries, your face/race is a reflection of your caste/tribe/DNA. Nothing is random or a mutation or unexplainable or inconsistent. Everything makes perfect sense. It’s just that some people lie and/or are ashamed about their heritage and background and make up contrived identities, while others stay true to their heritage and bloodline and look like what they say they are, something that genetic analysis and DNA studies back up completely. The same goes for other tribes and castes in south Asia such as the Pashtuns and the Jaats and the Kambojas, most of them are saying the truth about their identity and look like what they are, but a significant minority in each of these groups that happens to be larger in numbers within India, claims to be something that they are not, something that is easily verifiable from their appearance and indeed, from DNA studies. There are outlier Pashtuns and Jats scattered among lower caste north and east Indians on any PCA.
This is the harsh reality of real life and of living in the west, you can no longer lie about being Brahmin or Khatri, or Jaat or Pashtun while being as mixed as a regular generic South Asian, and get away with it— You have to actually look like what you claim you are, which means you have to look white and/or Middle Eastern. Welcome to the brave New World, where water finds its own level — get used to it.
“you can no longer lie about being Brahmin or Khatri, or Jaat or Pashtun while being as mixed as a regular generic South Asian, and get away with it”
even the most brazen casteists I have met in my life would shy away from talking like this.
For South Asians the choice is simply this:
Northerners/Gujaratis- Tortilla vs Roti/Bhakri
Southerners without Onge- Idli vs Arepa
NWners/Aryans- Naan/Kulcha vs Pita/Lavash
Easterners/Northeasterners- Chilli Paneer/Chicken vs Mapo Tofu/General Tso’s
Southerners with Onge- String Hoppers vs Jollof Rice
Make the choice Latino brotherhood. Now that we are bonafide Americans, we must assimilate and integrate as Americans as well. Pick a side. Pledge your allegiance. And live your life. As easy as pie. BTW, if it’s not obvious enough, the food choices are analogous to the racial groups you belong in for Americans.
All of us have our equivalents in the Americas. We are global citizens in the true sense. No wonder on all PCAs Latin Americans cluster right next to us, from Paniya to Pashtuns. AASI diversified at the same time as SE and NE Asians and the natives of the Americas, so all of this makes sense and also explains why AASI looks identical to the natives of the Americas. In fact Native Americans were once in correctly classified as Australoid, just like certain ASI strains in India were.
The thing is in America you have Black Lives Matter activists like Shaun King who are basically mostly white.
There are even cases of fully white European Americans who passsed as black like Jessica Krug or Rachel Dolezal.
So wouldn’t it be equally feasible for South Asians to identify in a manner similar to African Americans.
What I mean is under a one drop rule for Brown, rather than African American (although I think that would be interesting as well ).
Americans also have categories like “non-Hispanic white” because Hispanic whites aren’t really viewed as regular whites due to one drop rule.
So South Asian “Hispanic whites” risk similar types of exclusion from “non-Hispanic whites”
@Sumit
Lots of Bullshit and wrong information in your comment.
Shaun King is neither Black nor White — he is a non White Latino of the Black extraction. And Black people aren’t just West-East Eurasian mixed. They are West Eurasian-SSA mixed, and SSA has nothing to do with East Eurasians. In fact, East Eurasians are the farthest thing from SSA on planet Earth. Furthermore, the Black identity/identification in the US is based on looking visibly Black admixed, not the one drop rule, which by the way, only applied to African Americans in the Jim Crow era and holds no relevance today. In fact, studies have found that once people have less than 20% SSA they stop identifying as Black.
If it still held relevance today, then all Arabs and Northern Africans would be considered Black, not to mention many Portuguese and Italians mixed with Black that live in Europe, and all Latin Americans, even those that are 90% European and look White would become Black as well. That is simply not the case anymore and even in the past, those that didn’t look Black passed as White. In addition, to show that the one drop rule only applied in the context of African Americans mixing with Europeans, Arabs and Northern Africans and Europeans and Latin and Hispanic Americans and Jews mixed with Black were always considered non Black and the one drop rule never applied to them at any time in history.
Did you know that all Latinos that weren’t indigenous were considered White by the US starting from the 1890s up to 1970, when a small group of Latinos lobbied for a new Latin/Hispanic category to be created solely for cultural representation? Did you know that up until that point, ALL Mestizos/harnizos/Castizos/ and Criollos were considered simply White and didn’t have a separate box for themselves? In other words, when Arabs and Italians were struggling to be considered White, Latin/Hispanic and mixed Native Americans of all stripes and races and admixtures (except visibly Black admixed/appearance) were considered White in the US by the US government. As far as passing as a different race is concerned, people can pass as members of many different races by tanning their skin and getting perms and plastic surgery, it still doesn’t change their DNA, biological and legal race and that’s an entirely different topic that has no relevance here.
Did you also know that people that speak Latin Languages like Spanish and Portuguese and Italian also mark “White Hispanic/Latino” despite being of full European descent because the term has no racial utility, simply a cultural affinity? And that it is simply an optional term/affiliation that you can choose not to identify with if not a part of that culture? Did you know that White Latinos/Hispanics are treated no differently from other Whites and have never been excluded or treated differently either? The category was never created because of a one drop rule. How do you get all of this wrong information? Don’t make up things when they are not true at all.
There was never a one-drop rule for Latinos or East Eurasians in the United States — there is no such thing/concept/paradigm and there never was— and if such a rule had existed, then all Europeans would have been affected by it, as they share ancestry with Native Americans and because all West Eurasians have some East Eurasian admixture/ancestry, both ancient and modern, from ANE, Siberia, NE Asia, AASI (found in ancient European components) and modern ones. All Russians, Turks, Iranians, Azeris, Central Asians, Eastern and Northeastern Europeans, Central Europeans, and Latin Americans would have been affected by this imaginary rule that never existed and for good reason.
The one drop rule only existed for blacks and even then was not applicable to those mixed with blacks outside of the Americas at any point in time. In fact, the existence of a one-Drop rule for East Eurasian admixture would be akin to a Nazi-like state when Hitler was in power and everyone except Sardinians would be considered non-White because all the other Europeans are relatively more mixed than Sardinians. Indeed all West Eurasians are mixed with East Eurasians to different degrees, it’s just that Sardinians are the least admixed of all along with certain groups like Assyrians. Even Hitler did not have a one drop rule for East Eurasian admixture, be it ASI/brown/Native American or south east Asian or north east Asian admixture. In fact, he even considered the Japanese to be Aryans. Even Hitler would not be considered white using the one drop rule.
So no, South Asians would never identify in a matter similar to African-Americans, who themselves don’t all identify as African-American beyond a single threshold of sub-Saharan African admixture anyway. Besides there are 1 billion other reasons why the African-American example does not apply to Eurasians like us, some of which I have listed above.
Like I outlined above, Hispanic whites are viewed as no different from other non-Hispanic whites when it comes to racial legal social and biological realities. This has always been the case. This was simply a cultural distinction that was lobbied for by Hispanics themselves because they didn’t like simply being considered white as they considered their culture to be distinctive from Anglo-Saxon culture and wanted recognition for it. This is something that is less important these days as America is increasingly a melting pot and people follow American culture and more and more Latinos are simply identifying as whites without checking the Hispanic box according to the US census. So South Asians that are White/Caucasian racially do not risk any type of exclusion from other people that also identify as white. These are the facts, take it or leave it.
What’s fascinating is that researchers have found Onge-like/Jarawa-like/Hoabinhian like affinity in certain isolated groups of indigenous South Americans as well — this explains why certain indigenous South Americans can be as dark as Fitzpatrick 5 or even close to 6 on the pigmentation scale — and why they look identical to Tamil and Telugu Dalits/Lower Castes/Adivasis/Tribals in many cases. I’m sure the hotter climate also plays a role, particularly at that longitude/latitude. Random selection and sexual selection also play roles.
Some even theorize that there was a land/sea-based migration of indigenous people from Southern South Asia to South America a long time ago. Perhaps why there are so many similarities between Indigenous Americans and even Tamils/Southern Indians/Sri Lankans, forget about Northern AASI strains, whom they are identical to in appearance and diet.
Did you know that the traditional dress worn by Mexican indigenous people is derived from the Sari?!?! Yes, you read that right — a Tamil slave from India introduced the Sari to the natives of the Americas back in the 16th Century, and they immediately started adopting/wearing a slightly modified version of it—called the China Poblana—and it is directly derived from it. The similarities just keep getting larger and larger. Sari vs. China Poblana — make your choice Dravidians.
I recently went to the museum for the American Indian at the national mall in DC and the tour guide there told me that many people who come to visit from the Indian subcontinent feel an intense emotional connection to the exhibits there and even start crying, saying that they feel a deep spiritual and racial connection to the natives of the Americas and that they look like Indians to them. Even the tour guide herself (who was of Native Indian descent) remarked that they looked like different Native American tribes/Natives of the Americas and mixed Natives, not to mention the fact that Native Americans were and are still called “Indians” and were officially classified as “Indian American” until 1980. Some Indian reservations and organizations still use that term, making the use of the term “Indian American” by South Asians utterly absurd and useless, and rendering the identification of South Asians as “Indian” even more laughable.
Make the switch. Do the right thing. Join the international Latino brotherhood, from Chennai to Chandigarh to Chelyabinsk to Chula Vista. Everyone is LatinX. Just pick your specific flavor of LatinX. And live your life as an American of that group. Assimilate or be irrelevant. No one cares about South Asian worldviews and identification. Everyone thinks like Americans becaus they represent popular culture and worldviews.
Aren’t AASI at lot darker than any Amerindian group?
Like compare Irula tribal people to an uncontacted Amazon caste.
And even upper caste Indian are often quite dark, that skin color has to come from somewhere.
For eg. Look at Indian cricketer Hardik Pandya
https://twitter.com/CoHNAOfficial/status/1570151957993558017?s=20&t=So6WVAJMhpuPoXpka-3Yjw
Another attack by radical Sikh extremists in Toronto against Hindus.
I wonder if Sikh extremism falls under the umbrella of White supremacy. Then maybe terrorist sympathizers like Jagmeet Singh would be forced to take it seriously.
Vedanta and Foxconn formed a JV and announced that they’d invest $19.5Bn in Gujarat for a Semiconductor Plant. It’s interesting that neither of them have previous semiconductor manufacturing experience, though Foxconn does manufacture electronics. Both of them also have shady labor practices. It’s great that there is some initiative to bring this tech to India, but the pessimist in me is suspicious. Semiconductors are turning out to be the next gold rush. Lots of players but few winners. What do y’all think?
…..for aggrawal is an honorable man.!!
Was watching Telegu movie Sita ramam last night. Is it just me or there is a glut of South Indian movies now with Pakistan, Indian army, nationalism etc as their themes?
Is the South becoming more ‘Indian’ 🙂
telugus were always like that. Which raises the question, why did not bjp get its first break in telugu lands.
In 1984 elections, the BJP won only two seats nationwide. One was in Gujarat and the other was in then Andhrapradesh, now telanagana constituency of Haumakonda.
So, in a way, they did get a start in AP. Why they didn’t expand is multiple factors, most important in my opinion are (a) allying with TDP (b) YS Rajashekhar Reddy who revived Congress fortunes from 2004 until they broke up the state.
I am perhaps reading more into it.
But i see all around the ‘march lands’ and the ‘peripheral people’ being more and more ingrained into mainstream now. Hispanics in USA, Sindhis in Pakistan etc.
disturbing
https://www.hindustantimes.com/cities/chandigarh-news/sgpc-objects-banning-of-flags-carrying-bhindranwale-s-pictures-101648074960200-amp.html
Don’t worry @thewarlock bhai. Not a big deal.
@Sumit
https://www.timesnownews.com/india/khalistan-zindabad-graffiti-on-walls-of-torontos-baps-swaminarayan-mandir-india-strongly-condemns-incident-demands-probe-article-94211168
This is getting bad. It is going to get worse and worse for a bit.
I am pro the creation of an independent, separate, Khalistan… in Brampton.
They will never cover it. The Canadian government loves to nurture khalistani terrorists. One of the major party leaders is a notorious terrorist sympathizer.
The greatest terrorist attack in Canadian history was committed by Sikh extremists on an air India flight that mostly had Canadian Hindus in it. And that has mostly been brushed aside, so there’s a track record of the Canadian government encouraging Sikhs to attack Hindus.
Heck under the guise of religious accommodation Sikh teens are allowed to carry daggers into schools and such. Imagine letting such people, who are the furthest thing from stoic, carry weapons everywhere.
Canada is not a serious country.
We need to put a wall around Brampton. Let the Punjabis and the Gujjus fight it out (although its gonna be pretty one sided). Don’t want a Gujju exodus towards the rest of GTA but gotta live with it.
Canadian government has dropped the ball on immigration, they are importing too many Indians, and that too from a specific area. Almost 33% of immigrants are from India – mostly Punjab/Haryana – and all of them land in Greater Toronto Area. Brampton is rife with corruption, and an official hub of every type of fraud/scam known to man.
Gujus have stupidly gone too far down ahimsa pacifism nonsense. They should go back to same ways of neighboring marathis and rajasthanis. These clowns knew they could get away with harassment of pacifists. Gujus must change. Being an easy target is idiotic. Doubt major change anytime soon. They are so far removed from any dominant culture that isn’t mercentile. Don’t hold your breath for even a 10% MQM.
Gujus often will move wherever it is safe and prosperous. If that’s where you will, they will tend to move there.
Anyway, I will keep encouraging people to stand up to these radicals. Hopefully, I am wrong and Gujus wakeup a bit.
Knowing gujus, they will wait for other Hindu groups to engage in direct physical violence. You saw that with the Haryana guy Vishal Jood in Australia. The whole mindset has to change. At least in S Africa, the guju Indians picked up guns recently to counter the riots. But they are removed enough from the “bijness” only culture.
Direct violence is not a game gujjus can win.
But Kushal Mehra has a good podcast on Khaslistani politics in canada. And how they successfully game the election process in the election primaries to get their candidates selected in all the major parties.
It is time for Hindu Canadians to do the same.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjLQFco1IGc
But I also agree that some level of credible threat of violence is required to get respect as a dark skinned minority group in the west.
I notice on google news there is no coverage of this by any major canadian outlet, only indian outlets.
Anti-black, sikh, or muslim graffiti would be covered.
It’s easy enough to say that Hindu Canadians need to be engaged in the political nitty gritty of Canadian primaries and that Hindu Canadians need to respond in-kind to violence at the street level.
But one thing to keep in mind is that most adult Hindu Canadians tend to be in school or working.
In Canada, Gujratis are docile and have no street cred. They are not big in arts, media or politics. Most of them aspire to become middle managers in some midsized Canadian company, crunching or analyzing numbers, satisfied with rat race mediocrity. The enterprising ones are also so conservative that they are dominated in business by even the Sikhs. Their kids become deracinated within the first generation, compared to second or third gen Sikh Punjabis who still yap about Jatt pride. The other two major Hindu groups in Canada are Bengalis and Tamils – both hate Gujratis. Hindus trying to politically mobilize in Canada is just a pipe dream. Not gonna happen.
@Qureshi @thewarlock
First gen Indians in the US are unfortunately into ‘rat race mediocrity’, In second gen everyone becomes a doctor which is a good thing. NI are not as retarded about Amreeka as Madraasis but Gujjus in the US stand out because a lot of them get into the US via visa fraud and end up working for drab restaurants/motel/uber/…
In Pakistani mohallas in the US (NYC/Houston/Chicago), I see burqa, chappal, above ankle pyjama, goat-like beard, poverty, charity thrift stores, ten grocery shops and ten cheap restaurants right next to each other, reminds me of Barabanki/Lucknow-Sadar/Chandani-Chowk.
Do Indians in Brampton also live like that? Indians (including Indian Muslims) in the US seem to be a much-much richer than Pakistanis.
If the game in Amreeka-Kanedaa remains fair i.e. no discrimination or violence, then in the long term my money is on Baniyas. I have seen their families and work-ethic up close. I only hope they don’t become American and stay true to their values. They will run circles around Chini/Gora/Baman/Thakur/Punjabis/Madraasi/… everyone.
Quite the opposite, the baniya culture is shown to be deficient when things are ‘fair’ & a social caste network does not provide any competitive advantage. It is risk averse and lacking imagination. North American culture is social, and its business culture is focused on customer service, innovation and risk taking is heavily rewarded and penny pinching is not fruitful. In Canada, it’s even more easier to start a small business than the US due to heavy government incentives on tax rates, healthcare and subsidies. (they cut you down to size if you start getting too big though). In this environment, risk takers are rewarded more, because the government got your back if you fail. Sikhs, Tamils, Chinese, Italians, Pakistanis, all have done well.
//In Pakistani mohallas in the US (NYC/Houston/Chicago), I see burqa, chappal, above ankle pyjama, goat-like beard, poverty, charity thrift stores, ten grocery shops and ten cheap restaurants right next to each other, reminds me of Barabanki/Lucknow-Sadar/Chandani-Chowk.//
Don’t know man, Pakistani Americans also seem to be quite rich with $90K median income which is quite high. Burqas are not common at all, and the only South Asian women I ever saw wearing Burqa were Gujrati Muslims.. Hijab on the other hand is quite common. You are right about cheap restuarants and grocery shops.. Not sure why that is in Chicago and NYC. GTA is much better on that account.
In my experience in Toronto, I think South Indians and Gujaratis get along pretty well. Perhaps not for purposes of political mobilization, but at least as far as Hindu groups from India go they socialize with each other extensively. I think there’s some solidarity there.
‘Pakistani Americans also seem to be quite rich with $90K median income which is quite high.’
I could be wrong. I am also comparing Indian neighborhoods in the Bay Area that I have lived in, with NYC/Chicago/Houston which is not fair.
On Burqa: I have seen it too many times to count in many cities. Could have Afghans, idk?
I think ease of getting GC means a lot more blue collar (less academically talented?) Pakistanis get into the US. Also Pakistani-IIT i.e., LUMS the biggest feeder to American universities unfortunately doesn’t teach engineering. NUST, COMSAT, and such are not at the tier of IITs. I have seen a few brilliant hardworking Pakistani Punjabi engineering guys from these places but the numbers are still low. I think Pakistani doctors have a better ratio because it is up to individual merit in USMLE STEP 1/2, unlike pedigree in engineering. I don’t know enough 1.5-2nd, 3rd gen Pakistanis.
From what I understand, chutiya Indians are washing puke stains from carpets all over Brampton clubs pretending to be CC students, reasonably good ones are coming to US for MS, prachand chutiya ones are crossing the Mexico border. Most of Canada except BC and parts of Monreal is anyways ugly, depressingly cold and miserable. We have too many chutiya berojgaar guys in Punjab, welcome phenomenon. What proportion are from Haryana?
Canada is the dumping ground of the former British Empire
Brampton is disgusting and dangerous.
The Canadian visa office in Chandigarh should be abolished. Canada is already weak when it comes to fraud, but the Chandigarh visa office is the worst. That would solve half the issues.
Unfortunately, the Khalistani vote bank is strong, GTA suburbs are key to federal politics, and many Khalistanis occupy the highest echelons of the Canadian political apparatus.
@Quereishi Canada has been cracking down though. This year a huge number of student visas were rejected in India, with the majority of those being from Punjab. Canada Immigration is a huge industry in Punjab. You literally see IELTS coaching boards on almost every street.
Guju business potential takes time to click. Same with politics. The US has seen a big rise in both only recently catching attention. Sikhs are just more established in Canada and have more numbers. Give it some time.
As for street cred, Gujus have that really no where. Gangsterism is just not culturally valued at all. Cultural dissemination is also a fail. Blend and adapt or stay insular is mostly what Gujus do. They don’t repackage and really market their own culture. Punjabis are the kings of that from their food to making music. That along with a lot of military backgrounds, rustic rural roots, a ton of recent homeland violence in their history, and strong machismo culture makes them a lot more amenable to street gangs and obtaining street cred that way.
Sikhism is also very very well branded. The irony of preaching egalitarianism yet rife with a ton of casteism (eg. Jatt chauvanism, did gurudwaras) and even sexism in many cases (eg. highest selective abortion rates) is just given a pass. Langars and charity work are extremely well publicized even with organizations like khalsa aid having a clearly very political element, though of course doing some good work. History of military service for the West in world wars helps a ton. Finally, domination of entire media scene in India from North to South (eg. Actress import) by some Punjabi Hindus and pedastalization of their relatively fairer skin and more caucasoid features among the 2/3 non dalit population, also adds to the mix. Basically, the baseline milleau for street cred and media domination already exists among Sikhs and Punjabis in general.
They are also massive winners by coming to Canada early. The property value surges allow them to be a lot more entrepreneurial in business.
One trend that is there is deracination among their educated classes that are becoming more white collar and heavy rise of wokeism. Birth rates are also falling a lot. Demographics do not favor the community. Immigration temporarily will solve that. But homeland politics shifting demographically will put some reverse pressure back on them. Also, illegal immigration and future immigration in general, when it ebbs and flows, will eventually favor places like gangetic plains, as the region, albeit slowly, improves. The friction that will be seen will be of a different sort. Haryana immigrants already are clashing with Punjab ones. Heck even Khalistani and non khalistani sword fights are already are showing up. Gang violence and drugs have risen and are tearing through community in such a way that even Punjabiyat idols like Moosewala are impacted. Sikh on Sikh violence is huge, look at Stockton shooting recently. So things are not so rosy on that front.
I do see some glimmer of hope for Guju diaspora. Guys like Sumit and I aren’t uncommon anymore. We recognize our community issues and are changing to fill in the cultural gaps. It is only a glimmer because deracination tends to win out faster than staying culturally loyal and also filling in the gaps. But let’s see. Maybe things will surprise me. I won’t stop highlighting the issues. One advantage of deracination is the ability to use Western vehicles of institutions (aka formal legal, etc.) Rather than engage directly in mud fighting. This is already seen with how Gujus are highlighting the recent incident. International level wealth and family connection for large media houses is already there. So alternate vehicles of pressure exist outside of direct street confrontation. Of course, this is not enough. But the situation is not as dire as if Gujus were relatively poor like Punjabi mistreated dalits.
Gujus need an organized response like Jews. It took a Holocaust to fully incentivize the latter to add martialness to mercantilism. Hopefully gujus need less. Fortunately for martial groups, learning mercantilism is both a lot easier and more incentivized in the more globalizing technocratic world.
Final element is that in young generation that is educated. I see a lot less of this friction and BS. Yes political views can vary but people realize that there is a lot of life beyond this and that there is more in common between most people , regardless of race, than there is different. Interaction with other groups, something educated people tend to do more of by being in more cosmopolitan spaces on average, leads to a lot less reliance on these types of tribal identities. These clashes are more of a blue collar thing. And that blue collar nature of the community, chapter wise, though still fueled by immigration, is waning in the legacy population. Yes educated activists are much more dangerous so there is that side. But that is more of the fort oof many groups to counteract because that is more of brain game with media narratives, not an all out brawl.
@Q
Bania culture is not risk averse at all in business. A lot of family gamble everything to make it big. You have no idea what you are talking about. Networth is continuing surge and Baniya descendents are playing a big role in Silicon valley and a ton of startups.
Making rip off hip hop music with crass Punjabi lyrics is not the epitome of creativity. Creativity wise, I don’t see a deficits outside of some narrow media views. Education values differ for sure. Ivy League enrollments are a testament to that as are National Merit Scholar lists. I see plenty of Gujarati and non Gujarati Banja risk taking from the hedgefund space to big tech. Small business ownership is massive among both groups. Look at who does some of the riskiest small businesses, including liquor store and pawn shop ownership in low income areas or motels in rural America. It is often Gujaratis. Selling drugs type risk isn’t something Gujaratis. But taking legal business risk is certainly very common.
Canadian situation is not a fair comparison. If anything, Sikhs there have bania advantage of established wealth.
Pak income is 2/3 of Indian income in America. They tend to also live in high expense places like Indian Americans. So purchasing power wise, their income is not extraordinarily above median American one but certainly better. Much better than UK counterparts.
Few points:
1) I think Pak Americans tend to prefer single income households with defined gender roles, even highly educated professional ones, compared to Indian American households. Also, Indian Americans are earning more because they concentrate in High COL states like NY and Cali, whereas significant number of Pak Americans live in low COL areas like Texas and Virginia. Indians are more likely to be in IT which pays higher as well. These three factors explains most of the household income disparity.
2) When I talk about Brampton as a ghetto, it’s quite relative. If you haven’t visited Canada, you would think that it’s some crime infested inner city hood. In reality, Brampton town has a median household income of around $100,000.. which is higher than Toronto city. So it’s all relative. We are not talking about some slum here, the criticism is actually on the culture and attitudes.
3) My post is not some Gujrati hate post, Gujratis must have been very successful in the US, I don’t know the social dynamics. However I am comparing groups in GTA that start off from the same place two three decades ago. Gujrati community in Canada is also quite old, and there has been a significant mass of Gujratis since the 90’s. All immigrant groups started off from the bottom inner city neighborhoods.. but then eventually expanded as the city expands. But few groups performed better than others, Gujarati are at the lower end of that spectrum. Go to outer burbs of GTA and you will find Srilankan Tamils, Sikh Punjabis, Pakistanis buying property, but rarely groups like Gujaratis or Bengalis. All my Gujarati friends who were in living in Scarborough 20 years ago are still living in run down Scarborough. None of my SikhPunjabi/Pakistani/Tamil friends are.
“Gujrati community in Canada is also quite old, and there has been a significant mass of Gujratis since the 90’s”
So this seemed wrong based on what I know. So I looked up the data nearly half all Gujarati speakers in Canada migrated there in the last 10 years.
There is historical Census data on # of people who “know a language” in the country.
Basically the size of the community almost doubled between 2011 and 2021 from 118k to 209k. Which is 4x what it was in the 1991.
For comparison the Tamil community for comparison had 238k speakers in 2021 compared to 180k in 2011 which is a much more modest increase.
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Canada
Sumit,
The pattern is the same whether you look at Punjabis or Gujratis or Tamils over the long term.
in 1991, there were 54,000 Gujaratis, 37,000 Tamils, 167,000 Punjabis.
in 2001, there were 81,000 Gujaratis, 111,000 Tamils, 338,000 Punjabis.
in 2011, 119,000 Gujaratis, 179,000 Tamils, 545,000 Punjabis.
in 2021 209,000 Gujaratis, 238,000 Tamils, 942,000 Punjabis.
Punjabis increased by 564%
Gujratis increased by 387%
Tamils increased by 643%
I would also add something, the Tamil and Punjabi immigrant populations, especially from the 90’s is refugee population, so low quality.. but the Gujrati one is mostly immigrant via the tough Canadian immigration system. By all accounts, Gujratis should have dominated the other two economically at least, but this has not turned out like that.
Qureshi
Your analysis is misleading…
1. The 80s and earlier group of Gujarati immigrants are disproportionately, East African and Ishmaeli Muslim they do quite well economically.
See this list
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Canadian_people_of_Gujarati_descent
The current wave is directly out of India and much more recent.
2. Punjabis have several times the population. The have a lot of recent migrants but also had an old base from the same group.
3. Tamils immigration spiked in Sri Lankan civil war and is now mostly slow. 2nd gen has integrated well.
Gujarati culture is relatively entrepreneurial but they don’t have super powers. I don’t see why anyone expects them to “dominate”.
Also not sure how you can call any them an old community when half of them immigrated in the last 10 years.
@Q
Final disagreement is social element. Hell Gujus are so adaptable and social that they played a big role in the Trump and Biden campaigns. The entire younger generation is way less conservative. That comes with the deracination. Across Anerican high society, Gujus are popping up just fine. I don’t agree with your analysis.
Main wins for Punjabi again is element of capitilizaing on the already dominant cultural space from India and settling in Canada with big land holdings early. This along with street reputation and very effective culture fidelity programs, Khalistani or not, with a less deracinated youth. This allows for very good sustained media coverage. Outside of that, I don’t see much difference, especially as you move through generations.
Maybe America just does it better. But in the end, the American identity trumps all. And residual mercantilism seems a lot better than feudal chauvanism for modern economic spaces, especially in elite avenues. But that’s just my view.
@Bhimrao
Pak origin doctors are fine. They vary in quality like Indian ones. In general, Aga Khan grads have been great in my experience. The ones I met tend to be exclusively Mohajirs from well off families, many of whom grew up in places like the Gulf and returned to Pak for education.
Bengalis and Tamils hate Gujaratis? Beyond minor usual ethnic desi friction, I have not seen that in America. Yeah some views on Modi might be diff on average. But with American politics, meritocratic culture, value for education and family, and avoidance of crime- all three are similar.
Maybe Sri Lankan Tamils are an exception. They don’t view India favorably. Maybe that is what you are referring.
I sometimes think you live in some parallel reality in GTA. I haven’t seen the majority of the stuff you have gone on about.
“ Maybe Sri Lankan Tamils are an exception. They don’t view India favorably. “
Let me assure u they are not the exception 😉
Never heard about this Tamil & Bengali hate for Gujaratis in the GTA. I don’t think there’s some SL Tamil exception.
Lol at penny pinching. Yeah maybe with blowing money on driving super cars. But a huge part of bania culture is setting a side large portion of income for business reinforcement. You seem to go of Pak caricature of “evil Hindu Baniya,” not the least bit surprising. Keep it up. Enough will laugh all the way to the bank.
Banias also are dominant in Indian startup scene. But to you that will all be entirely conspiratorial nepotism. So I won’t go into that. If you dug a little, youd be surprised of the humble origins of some in cities on diff corners of India.
Gujaratis on the whole are ideal immigrants. Hard working and entrepreneurial. Nice culture too, even if it’s not as well publicized or known.
Not a fan of the Modi sycophancy among many Gujaratis who I’ve met, though I suspect if another ethnicity’s person was PM and they had resounding democratic wins then they may act that way too.
Re: The monologue on Unsupervised Libsyn- 15% is more like the North Indian average than the pan Indian subcontinent average.