322 thoughts on “Open Thread – 10/14/2022 – Brown Pundits”

  1. The President of the New York Stock Exchange, a White American woman named Lynn Martin, looks completely like a NW South Asian; she would fit among Kambojas/Rors/Khatris/Pashtuns/Jats/Sindhis:


    While this South Asian man interviewing her wouldn’t be out of place among non White Latin Americans, looks indigenous to South Asia/America:


    They both look like members of different races and ethnicities. The difference is akin to that between White/Caucasian Americans and Indigenous Latin Americans. For Americans and for people outside of South Asia they are members of vastly different racial groups. This is how vast South Asia’s diversity is.

    A good analogy in the South Asian context would be the difference between generic Gujaratis and NW South Asian Caucasians. Tamils would not even figure in the comparison due to a having different AASI strain and possessing Onge—like admixture.

    South Asians span the range from indigenous South American to White South Americans and everything in between. Then there’s the East and SE Asian looking/admixed South Asians, ranging from Chinese/Thai looking all the way to Hazara and Uzbek and Turkmen and Tajik looking. While AASI is a form of an ancient SE Asian element, it’s best approximation are the natives of the Americas.

    The Hoabinhian admixed Southern and Eastern Indians are unique as well, different from all other South Asians, and have their own AASI strain and unique appearance indigenous to South Asia.

    To think that all South Asians belong in one box or color (Brown) is a laughable notion. It is an impossibly absurd sentiment, one that isn’t supported by science or indeed, by social and cultural norms. Or by anyone with two eyes and a functioning brain. The genetic PCA spans the entire range from almost purely West Eurasian to almost purely East Eurasian.

  2. The genetic and phenotypic differences between South Asian groups just within the Indian subcontinent are mind boggling.

    You have midcaste Gujarati Vanias at 60-65% West Eurasian and Kambojas and Khatris and some Sindhis at 85-88% West Eurasian and Jaats and Rors and Pashtuns at 88-90% West Eurasian.

    That’s a difference of 25-30% West Eurasian between Gujarati Vanias and NW South Asian Caucasians, akin to the difference between Amhara/Eastern Africans/Ethiopian Jews and the average Saudi man, or akin to the difference between the average Uzbek and the average Iranian. Or the difference between the average Turkmen and the average Russian.

    And when you look at the difference between most generic South Asians, who are around 50-55% West Eurasian, and NW South Asians, the difference is laughably absurd. A continental difference.

    We can never be one people. It would make a mockery of identity and science and biological realities the world over.

    Since AASI has additional West Eurasian in it, this means these NW South Asians are >>90% West Eurasian in many cases, which would only inflate these distances even more.

    We’re also all mixed with different AASI strains and most of us lack Hoabinhian admixture and SE Asian admixture found in Bengalis and South Indians as well. This makes us all extremely different from each other.

    Even to outsiders, Castizos like Hrithik Roshan, Freddy Mercury, Neil Nitin Mukesh and Nikki Haley are White passing, and the furthest thing from Indian or South Asian, not even to speak of Criollos, that are essentially White being Caucasians.

    India can never make it unless it Balkanizes.

    1. . For a race based balkanization, we would literally have to gather all the upper castes and brahmins in one area, all the indigenous adivasis in another, dalits, SC’s and the rest in other states. Heck even among brahmins, there’s significant variation in the steppe genes across various subcastes and regions.

      If a balkanization were to ever happen, it would most likely be on a linguistic basis, not racial, with states like TN being the prime candidate.

  3. Thanks for uploading, Razib!

    One feedback – would it be possible to put the original broadcast date of the podcasts in the name or in the thumbnail image?

  4. UPA vs Modi econ perf


    “When one looks at comparative economic growth, tracked using current US dollars, four countries feature as the best performers of the 2011-21 decade: Bangladesh, China, Vietnam and India — in that order. (For India, 2021 means the financial year 2021-22, its last completed year.)

    Only two of these four countries figured among the top performers of the previous decade, with China in the lead and Vietnam in fifth place (tying with Turkey). Remember that this period (2001-11) saw India’s best ever decadal growth performance, by far. But, as is rarely recognised, the country’s growth in that period was marginally slower than the average for all emerging markets and developing countries (EMs), a grouping that includes all but some 40 “advanced” economies.”

  5. Frontiers for freedom, george landrith. They took a wsj ad against modi, calling for sanctions against Indian ministers. Tunku vardarajan called for similar maginsky or something sanctions. Our guesses are working are on the spot. India should Ignore and grow for next 40 yrs/ 50 yrs. And only then, do the talking and acting. Also, biden gave a statement against pakistan. there is a motion to recognize 1971 genocide, which is the real darkspot of usa and as usual trying to cover that record with this “recognition”.

    1. Some relief that SG tried to draw distinction between traditional reporting/journalism and advocacy/activist based journalism. There was a dig about regime change operation.

    2. shekar gupta is true to himself and this is seen by his rolled sleeves,albeit with a jacket on!!!

  6. The brouhaha over the Germany based “Global Hunger Index” is overflowing on Indian twitter. Had to dive into the methodology to understand what their “method” is. The top countries, that is the “least hungry” on their rankings are –

    Belarus, Bosnia, Chile, China, Croatia, Hungary, Kuwait, Latvia Lithuania, Montenegro, Macedonia, Romania, Serbia, Slovakia, Turkey and Uruguay.

    Unusual suspects, to say the least!

    They use 4 parameters to drive their index – child stunting, child wasting, undernourishment and child mortality. These parameters are drawn from other published sources (UN, FAO, UNICEF, WHO) and normalized.

    The primary sources themselves have been normalized from governmental sources. So this is a double-normalized comparison.

    From what statistical knowledge I have, normalisation favors the mean and skews the outliers even further outward. This could be one of the outcomes of having super-large countries and extremely tiny states in the same ranked score.

    I also think that there is some amount of ex-communist zone data that is crowding out all other countries from the left tail. The “least hungry” countries are predominantly in the Eastern Europe/Slavic zone. There is no adequate temporal explanation for this “good performance”.

    Because the curve ranking is force fitted, “managed” data will always crowd out good data.

    1. I can see how underemployed people and their dependents can be more food insecure in a very high mean income country vs a middle income one with very low food prices, housing cost and ethnic homogeneity. As an analogy, consider how within countries we see the most struggling people in the richest cities. Once you run out of cash and don’t have access to a kitchen and utensils, one can’t even take advantage of the low cost of preparing “survival” food, like daal-rice, roti, or mac n cheese where a meal can cost <$1. You go out in any US city and are set back $3 at a bare minimum and in the demoralising company of junkies and other folks scraping by. Not going to get out of that rut anytime soon.

      1. There could be multiple lines of reasoning to substantiate the results. I am more interested in the methodology itself.

        Another little factoid buried inside – they interviewed 3000 people in India for a questionnaire related to consumption trends. If i remember correctly, the stat sample sizing must be at least 390 people per million pop to achieve scaling. That means that the pan-India sample size should have been 500k people at least (half a million people).

        The German excel-incels settled for a 3000 sample size! These folks should regress to using Roman numerals. No competence in handling big numbers.

  7. Following “The Wire”‘s travails on Meta now. It is a hot fire, the steel beams are buckling and Tunku is going to collapse inward.

    Whoever did this to them is a top notch saboteur. All the good liberal ideologues of India are getting massacred in the big bad tech world.

    Can’t blame them – they became “social science intellectuals” in the first place because their intellect wasn’t enough for STEM.

  8. Professor at Harvard
    Nobel Peace Prize frontrunners
    And now, to top it all, the Wire-Meta drama

  9. More often than not, occam’s razor works quite well and will get you to truth or the meat of the issue.I could have saved 8 yrs, but then again. I was a liberal and self deluded and refused to see what reality really was about.


    Fascinating background: Omidyar, US State Department, NGO work in India, religious studies degree, work on conversion, caste, gender, and “human rights.”

    on emma, a person working for omidyar network. she is chief of staff omidyar network, supporting wire.

  10. The india stack is pretty impressive. Not sure which sarkari babu to give credit to for this, but good job.


    It is more open than the china stack (social credit system, WeChat mega app)

    And more transparent, less duplicitous in nature than the America stack (snowden, big tech, slowly eroding illusion of privacy)

  11. https://twitter.com/indiainpixels/status/1581678295774826496?s=20&t=gapwIPz4OLBy4oJQdq7SXg
    India. States by height above 6’0. Key seems to be nutrition. Gujarat actually not too bad, despite very bad stunting stats relative to its gdp per capita. More of a West to East Cline.

    This nutrition trend is consistent with the Secular Heights Survey data which showed Jains and Sikhs as tallest men. Also consistent with average height data.

    Have some 6’0+ people in my family in India. Closest is maternal uncle, maternal grandpa, and maternal great grandpa (he was considered a giant back then).

  12. Whoever did this to them is a top notch saboteur. All the good liberal ideologues of India are getting massacred in the big bad tech world.

    Can’t blame them – they became “social science intellectuals” in the first place because their intellect wasn’t enough for STEM.

    Made me really question who their tech guy even is.
    If I’m not wrong, it looks like he went to BITS Mesra. And he claims on his blog that he’s friends with Postman’s founder.
    Also looks very different in a recent video, when compared to all his profile pics.
    His resume is in the description-

    I don’t think he’s clueless about what he’s doing, and I’m not sure what prompted this whole “tech-journalism” phase.
    Also went and read the whole ‘Tek Fog’ story, because I didn’t care about it when it came out.
    Even that looks equally suspicious, zero proof and extremely shaky evidence. It’s all just “source: trust me bro”. Other tech folks called it out too.
    They don’t seem to understand the ‘Sagan standard’.

    If I had to guess, I’d say they wrote the whole bogus Tek Fog story, received good reception, and thought they could write another piece that involves Meta, and take another shot at BJP.
    However when some American journo shared the tweet, Meta’s comm. guy took notice and responded, and everything spiraled out of control from there on.
    I’d say that the Wire isn’t entirely being Nidhi’d, at least one or more of their employees are in on this.

  13. The Indian RW bellyaching about “how the West is out to get us”/”The west is against Hindus”/”unholy Islamist-Woke nexus against India” seems very hyperbolic. It must be nice for them to inhabit a world where everything revolves around India, but that’s not the case. Not saying there isn’t a grain of truth to these sort of statements but if anything it’s a minor irritant in the wider scheme of things.

    One often points to how often Modi has been “demonised”, India’s falling democratic ratings, etc. but do these actually matter? To those who have been observing these things in the west, the demonisation against Erdogan/Putin/Xi/Orban/Bolsonaro etc. have been orders of magnitude worse, no one cares.

    As for the unholy nexus the west and the islamists, methinks that this is entirely symbolic and it will end the moment the west stops having any interest in the oil rich regions of the middle east. If anything the modern age of pax-americana has been very harsh on muslims globally. Uncounted millions of muslims have died directly or indrectly from western action in Iraq/Afpak/Libya/Somalia etc. Post 9/11, muslim immigrants suffered horrific racism in the west. Enture mosques full of worshippers have been shot up as in NZ, and there are entire political parties in Europe that run on explicit anti-muslim agendas. The recent uptick of anti-hindu/anti-hindutva rhetoric in the west doesn’t really compare yet but the trend does seem disturbing in itself.

    The recent months have shown that the US-led west is entering a gloves-off phase against its rivals. Senior US politicians have openly taunted China by visiting Taiwan. Efforts have been taken to openly block China’s chip industry from developing. And after the recent CCP conference the number of anti-Xi hitpieces have proliferated everywhere. As for Russia, the US is openly pushing its European allies into economic wilderness, a fate which ironically is being cheered on by these countries themselves as a cost they’re willing to bear. No wonder that India’s opportunistic increasing of trade with Russia (something I personally support btw, this isn’t our war) is seen as a stab in the back and is raising questions, something that will only get worse as the this uncertain age drags on.

    Nevertheless it seems clear to me that India does not feature anywhere in the west’s crosshairs, if that were the case then there would be way, way more hostility against the country and Indian immigrants. India has done quite well for itself using western tech to get ahead, and Indian immigrants have done better than any other group in the west. Hindu immigrants should definitely mobilise and organise against targeted campaigns, spread indic culture and act as ambassadors but this isn’t a time to feel sorry for ourselves.

    1. Nevertheless it seems clear to me that India does not feature anywhere in the west’s crosshairs, if that were the case then there would be way, way more hostility against the country and Indian immigrants.

      Delusional. Anti-Indian hit pieces have exploded in the past 5 years in the Western media. The reason why it isn’t going up even more is because the West is cynically using India as a wedge against China.

      As for immigrants, why would the West block access to smart Indians? It makes sense to brain drain weaker countries. Moreover, many Indians in the 2nd and 3rd gen become very whitewashed and are useful “native informants”. Many can be used to deal with Indian matters. Indians will always inherently trust a brown face over a white one. Very useful to have an ever-growing comprador class at your disposal.

      Hindu immigrants should definitely mobilise and organise against targeted campaigns

      With all due respect, most of “Hindu activism” in the West is utterly pathetic. Even Audrey Truschke still has a job. This is not just a problem for Indians. Asians as a whole are economically highly successful but politically they are pygmies at best.

      This shows the clear limits of going all in on STEM but ignoring the humanities. Jews on the other hand understood early on that media and entertainment industry are critical to reinforce political power. Asians still haven’t gotten this lesson. See Ugra’s deluded rants that only STEM counts in this very thread for reference. Very dumb take but also very typical for many Asians.

      1. India is a rising and more relevant country. It has a lot of disagreements with the West. So yes there will be many Westerners who criticize India. Heck there are “hit pieces” against Western countries by other Western countries all the time. Pretty much all of Western(including the US) media against the US itself in 2017-2020 or US media against Germany nowadays. If you can’t handle criticism(even the one you think is baseless) then the country shouldn’t try to become more relevant. No one on Earth gives a shit about what Laos does.

    2. Indophobia of the West is a result of their orientalist narratives, it goes hand-in-hand with their current tryst with Islam. As far the West is concerned, Hinduism is a religion of Caste, Widow burning and snake charmers, an archaic pagan culture that needs to be dragged by the neck into the 21st Century. When India becomes economically stronger, we’ll get into West’s crosshairs eventually.

      The colonialist notion that India needed to be colonized to become “Civilized” isn’t even challenged in India because RW “intellectuals” are preoccupied with their hindu-muslim culture wars.

      1. “Indophobia of the West is a result of their orientalist narratives…”
        Dude, this isn’t the 18th century. The “West” that we’re talking about here is not an old Iberian-style christian empire but a narrow cabal of arms dealing war profiteers and financiers that stand against all proud nations trying to develop an independent socio-financial system. So their Indophobia is way down the list, they’re way more Sinophobic, Russophobic, Magyar-ophobic (?)…and against sections of their own populations that dont agree with this worldview such as white christians at home.

        “….it goes hand-in-hand with their current tryst with Islam”
        Again, their ‘tryst’ with Islam is cynical and temporary. The West has reduced large parts of the muslim world to post-apocalyptic warscapes or aid-dependant failed states such as Pakistan. There isn’t a single successful muslim country with an independant outlook except maybe Iran, which the west is actively trying to break down. And Turkey’s steps towards forging its own path are being met with the same (if not more) alarm as India’s.

        “The colonialist notion that India needed to be colonized to become “Civilized” isn’t even challenged in India…”
        Again, not true. Especially not since 2014. I do sense that the inferiority complex versus the west has come down albeit it does still persist in patches. The RW media and pop culture ecosystem seems to be taking baby steps towards coming into its own, but there are miles and miles yet to go.

    3. The recent months have shown that the US-led west is entering a gloves-off phase against its rivals.
      Well worth repeating often.

      The US would be well minded to recall
      “I do not like war. It is costly and the outcome uncertain”
      Queen Elizabeth I

  14. https://twitter.com/alexstamos/status/1581357059949309953

    To me the whole Wire-Meta fiasco has shown how much of BJP/Modi use of social media (mostly in 2014) has permanently damaged the liberal/opposition commentariat.

    The BJP game on social media is just a part of overall advantage it has over its opponents. And i would argue a very small part. Its no substitute for ground game. Unlike the West where elections can be swinged on FB or other social media platforms, a minuscule percentage of India is on social media platforms.

    There is no advantage to be had by BJP using tactics to take down posts on Instagram (lol) . But somehow the entire liberal commentariat including the opposition feels this is big deal. Suits BJP though.

  15. To those who have been observing these things in the west, the demonisation against Erdogan/Putin/Xi/Orban/Bolsonaro etc. have been orders of magnitude worse, no one cares.

    I don’t follow most American newspapers on a regular basis, but is it normal for them to dedicate an entire page to take a shot at these leaders and their cabinet? Saw some pics of full-page newspaper ads taking a shot at BJP.

  16. The “Dismantling Hindutva” conference is back.

    This time they call it “Hinduism against Hindutva”

    So now these hateful bigots are appropriating the Hindu religion to spread their hateful messaging against the Hindu religion.

    A religion which these same people will also claim doesn’t even exist.

    1. I on the other hand, welcome more of these conferences.

      It really doesn;’t have any proposed material impact on the ground, while having the opposite effect of galvanizing Hindutva, with the whole ‘Western liberals’ vs ‘Indigenous Hindus’ on the commentariat.

      1. These things start like that. This BS woke stuff started that way too. You have to take it very seriously. It has strong deracinated, Khalistani, and radical Islam sympathizer allies

  17. https://twitter.com/suryakane/status/1582492079229632513

    “The Wire is alleged to have forged evidence. So, impartiality demands they investigate themselves. BJP has curtailed press freedom. The toxic politics of seeking accountability forced gutsy media outlets to waste valuable time which should instead be spent on regime change.”

    wapo. regime change is openly said. It is what it is.


    ” The Wire saga is a sad & instructive moment for a media dangerously divided into sycophants & activists or what I call Chamcha ya Morcha. Western media must also reflect on its own Saviour complex as it pushes pet projects of dodgy activism in India instead of actual reportage

    media divided into “activists” instead of reportage. western media is pushing pet projects of dodgy activism in India instead of reportage.

  18. A war Russia set to win; MK Bhadrakumar Tribune India.
    Brutal. For instance:

    Plainly put, the Europeans have been nicely played by the Americans. India should take note of the US’ sense of entitlement. Basically, the Biden administration created a contrived energy crisis whose real aim is war profiteering….

    India should expect the defeat of the US and NATO, which completes the transition to a multipolar world order.


    1. Russia doesn’t seem to be winning. On the other hand, inability to occupy territory just 50km from its border makes it look quite pathetic. As I have said before, my sympathies are with Russia but you cant just wish Russia into victory. Things can change, but the way I see it now, both Russia and Europe are losers. Russia will just become a vassal state of China, Europe has become even more of an American vassal than before. US Empire is much stronger than a year ago.

  19. i feel that shashi tharoor getting 1020 votes out of 6500 votes should be considered as a victory for him. officially 1 in 6 voters are not with the official nominee???

  20. South Asians are so different from each other that even when marrying Europeans, their kids look non-White after two generations (or as much as three generations), whereas NW South Asians look like Europeans without mixing with them in many cases, or like Northwestern Europeans after 1 generation of mixing.

    Liza Koshy is half White and half Keralite yet looks fully Indigenous Latino.

    Mona Arshis (a famous author) daughters look like British women with blonde hair and blue eyes after marrying a British man (one generation of mixing) despite the fact that she is a Castizo Sikh Jatt.

    Shashi Kapoors children look like regular Northern Europeans after marrying a British woman. One generation.

    I know a woman from India who is a Dalit, her daughter is half White yet she still looks like an indigenous Dalit, and her daughter married a White guy again, so two generations of marrying White men, and yet her 3/4 White 1/4 Dalit children look like Latin Harnizos.
    Imagine that.

    There are South Asians that look fully White from birth, like Mediterraneans and Slavics, whereas they look Nordic after 1 generation of marrying NW Europeans, and there are South Asians that look like Dalits and Chamars after one or two generations of marrying Europeans.

    We can never be the same. It would make a mockery of identity and biological realities and genetics.

  21. Of course it is not a coincidence that such biological outcomes are observed with progeny. After all, South Asians range from close to 0% West Eurasian (NE India/Nepal/Adivasi Tribals) to close to 95% West Eurasian (Yaghnobi Tajiks, certain Baloch tribes, certain Kalash and related tribes and some recent Irani immigrants from Yazd) and everything in between.

    Therefore, when marrying West Eurasians, different outcomes will be observed with progeny. Simple math. If you’re already 86-90%+ West Eurasian like NW South Asian tribes (Jaats/Rors, Pashtuns, Kambojas etc) then your progeny with a fellow West Eurasian like a European will also be racially fully Caucasian and West Eurasian. And if you’re a Dalit from Tamil Nadu with 15% West Eurasian then your progeny will be super mixed and non Caucasian.

    Just common sense really. And now with the first release of an Asian American on US currency, we must ask ourselves, are we really Asian? Apart from NE Indians, Nepalis and Afghans that look Mongoloid? In the conventional sense of being racialized as Asian? Or are we best described as a region with a mix of different racial groups, ranging from Caucasian to Asian to Negroid, like Latin America? The answer is obvious.

    Our representation is not Mongoloid Asians who define conventional Asian terminology, but Latin and Hispanic Americans and Central Asians, who are also equally diverse and have all racial groups represented. We would feel represented based on our own racial group, so for 98% of South Asians it would mean being represented by non White Hispanics and Latinos while for the 2% that are fully Caucasian it would mean being represented by White Americans.

  22. We already talked about how Lynn Martin, the White American President of the NYSE, looks like a NW South Asian. Whereas the South Asian Bengali interviewing her looks like an indigenous Latin American or a non-White Hispanic American. We’ve also seen how Karl Rocks’ father looks like a NW South Asian and how Ron DeSantis and his Lt. Governor have their doppelgängers among NW South Asians. This shows just how wide the gulf is, both genetically and phenotypically, among South Asians. From non-White to White.

    Let’s examine some more examples that illustrate the difference among South Asians in detail.

    This is a vlog of the famous Gem Palace in Jaipur.


    The owner of the establishment, Siddharth Kasliwal, who is seen in this video, is a Marwari (a Chamar/low caste) and looks like an indigenous Latino of some sort, like Tenoch Huerta. He looks like a migrant from the East/South of the subcontinent.

    Whereas the European tourist in the same video above, seen first at 2:48 and then at 4:36, Erik Nachtrieb, looks exactly like a NW South Asian, like Onkar Kanwar or Raj Kapoor. He fits like a glove among NW South Asians. So again the range in South Asia is from indigenous Hispanic and Dravidian looking (the Dravidian look, stereotyped as the Indian look, is conspicuous owing to Onge- like admix and a different AASI strain among South Indians and some Bengalis) to Slavic and Mediterranean looking among NW South Asians. That is how vast the difference is among South Asians.

    Even the half Italian proprietor of the second branch of the Gem Palace, Samir Kasliwal, looks like a Latin American Harnizo, or a Punjabi Tarkhan/middle caste, owing to the fact that his father, who being a Marwari was akin to an indigenous Latin American, married an Italian woman. On the other hand, NW South Asians like Sanjay Gandhi and Rahul Dev look fully Mediterranean without mixing with Europeans.

    1. Samir Kasliwal looks a bit like Destiny (the streamer) to me. He’s white though his family is from Cuba (whites from cuba probably aren’t as European as those in North America

  23. China’s zero covid policy seems bizarre.

    But if you were to take a shot at giving a reasonable explanation for it, what would you say?
    (No “Xi is suppressing dissent” etc)

    My argument:
    China is a taking a long term approach.
    Climate change will lead to the melting of Siberian permafrost. This will release ancient viruses that humanity has not encountered in millennia.
    China understands that covid-19 was not the last pandemic of this century.

    It is building technology, infrastructure, and muscle memory among its citizens to be able to withstand future such shocks.

    1. China made a big deal about having contained COVID in 2020 while it was burning through the US and Europe. Those societies have generally moved on after the widespread availability of vaccines. Chinese vaccines on the other hand are not as good so if it opens up, there will be millions of cases. China is not mentally prepared for this. The maximum new cases ever in China was about 20K while in the US it was about a million. East Asians in particular seem to be uniquely afraid of COVID. In my area, only East Asians still wear masks, even wearing while walking or running outside. I would imagine the Chinese in China are even more afraid than Chinese Americans. If there are millions of new cases everyday, there will be mass panic in the country. Having made a big deal about containing COVID two years ago, if COVID now gets out of control, the Xi government will lose international prestige and more importantly domestic legitimacy.

      This makes more sense to me than Xi locking down the entire country because he is worried about a potential outbreak from melting Siberian permafrost.

      1. TBH I think most interpretations on why Xi is doing what he is are just Kremlinology, including the idea that he fears losing domestic legitimacy.

        No one really knows what goes on in his head.

    2. Political reasons are more reasonable than scientific.

      But if i had to think of a science based reason, I would say it is overcautiousness about risk and reward.

      Part of it is a desire to save face by overdoing pandemic response, so that people don’t blame China for covid. It may have originated in China but now they can point at their Covid response which went above and beyond vs the rest of the world.

  24. i feel that the tory grandees who deposed boris johnson should take blame for the strange situation their country and party is in now. did they not know the lack of talent in their ranks to have a leader and pm. to blame the very average liz truss for the spectacle now being seen is bit rich.

  25. Came across this map of 25 year old guys taller than 6′ by state in India.


    Something I found interesting – Bihar has a higher %age than any of its neighbours. Bihar is the poorest state in India with one of the highest malnutrition rates.

    What could explain this?

    Some guesses:
    1. Higher meat eating than UP
    2. Higher genetic potential than Bengal (less East Asian) and Jharkhand (tribal pop)
    3. Higher inequality – Bihari upper castes are better fed and this only captures the extreme of the distribution
    4. Some artefact of data

    Also these numbers are from NFHS in 2008 so I am assuming the %ages would only have increased in recent times.

    1. Looking at the table in the methodology section the SD is higher for Bihar even though UP has a higher mean height.

      Not sure what the explanation would be. For higher SD.

    2. It all comes down to Nutrition.
      Filter the sampling further to include only Western Bihar districts only it will cross 1.5%.
      Zoom it further to Rajputs, Brahmins and Bhumihars in Western Bihar, it may well cross 2.0% due to the higher than average meat consumption and genetics.

      1. Gujarat is also more than expected. Gujarat does quite badly on malnourished data despite high gdp per capita. It was even worse in 2008.

        1. The diet is terrible. Abundant protein in the form of seafood nearby yet the Gujaratis refuse to touch it. Yes, I know you said the Muslims and some of the Rajputs do consume it but the vast majority of the population have willingly locked themselves out of it.

          1. The point is that Gujarat does OK despite deficiency, relative to much of the country. It shows genetics are there for better height. Also Rajasthan, Punjab, and Haryana are quite vegetarian. Key is protein and calories. I agree. Meat isn’t a requisite for that. The diet does suck. All fried and sweet foods.

  26. Kharge is the new Congress President. Shashi Tharoor lives on (will see what happens to him!). RaGa moved South long ago to fight MP elections.

    Modi, Shah & Nagpur complete the picture.

    The whole political HQ of India has moved lock, stock and barrel to the South and the West.

    The only viable pan-Indian political force left in the North is AAP/Kejriwal.

    Political bankruptcy is almost always a symptom of intellectual and cultural bankruptcy.

  27. i) pakistan off grey list.
    ii) america is giving them upgrades for f 16s.
    iii) germany is giving them money.
    i feel it is the ability of the punjabi army to make deals with the americans by diverting arms to ukraine, and the elite mohajers in the foreign affairs ministry winning with their slick talk.
    naturally in this state of affairs pashtoon imran khan has no role and has been made officially one so.

    1. I think the US these days sees India less as a partner in countering China and more as just another challenger down the line. Geopolitics changes all the time, but this describes the current mood of the foreign policy establishment well. Especially after the Ukraine war which has turned into a moral crusade for all American liberals these days.

      If China gets too aggressive, then the US will come knocking(and India will go knocking to the US as well), if China maintains its course, then the US will maintain this somewhat cool relationship with India. Pakistan is a very useful country for both the US and China to periodically remind India, who is the boss in the world and the region. India should aim to get stronger so this is no longer as concerning but it will never completely go away.

      1. There is a small chance that Pakistan will see the light and make peace with India. India and Bangladesh have excellent relations at the state level, despite the usual Hindu-Muslim animosity at the popular level. Hindus and Muslims in the subcontinent can make peace, if separated by a border. In this sense, Jinnah was perspicacious.

        Beyond the histrionics and posturing, Pakistanis know that Indian Muslims are doing ok and that they are not getting Kashmir. They could still do something crazy like let terrorists take over a nuke and blackmail India. But this would set a precedent for groups fighting the Pak state.

    2. 1) Pakistan is suffering from an accelerating brain drain. Long term effects are only going to be bad to worse.

      2) Pakistani economy is in the gutter, and there is no political will to make any hard decisions to correct the course. Situation is going to be stagnant for next 2-3 years or perhaps next 5.

      3) In this state, Pakistan is not going to be challenging or provoking India. US will always provide toys for the boys but this at best will keep a deterrent against any future Indian misadventures like 2019. Boyz and other Pakistani politicians will always fall into the Western camp and do Western bidding, as the West is easy to get money out of.

      4) Muhajirs, Sindhis, Baluch, and significant portion of Pasthuns are disenfranchised, perhaps more than they have been in the past
      as depleted state resources not enough to pacify them. However social fabric of the country is still stronger than ever as shown in the recent floods, all credit given to perhaps a good policy of making Urdu as national language and teaching lies to young minds in Pak Studies. It created a nation out of many.

      1. ‘ Muhajirs, Sindhis, Baluch, and significant portion of Pasthuns are disenfranchised, ‘

        Qureishi Bhai, quite a grim take (even for u), dont u think?

        Has the recent Imran Khan disqualification made u despondent?

        1. The disqualification does not matter much since it doesn’t really affect IK’s ability to contest in the future. However I think the future elections will be rigged, if they happen anytime soon and groundwork is already prepared for it (and rigging tested on a few seats in recent by-elections). Both status quo politicians and Army are in bed together, their usually show of conflict is just to fool the peasants. Unfortunately, the same politicians are in the ranks of IK’s party as well, so I doubt anything is changing much even if IK comes back into power although he alone is the wild card.

      2. Pak is winning big with removal from Grey list. Bajwa is saving Pak. China is an inferior daddy.

  28. The Imran khan disqualification is making a lot of news. IMO at least at the surface level IK coming back will be a huge disaster for Pak, their problems are too big – it’s WAY over his head. He’s also proven himself to be an egotistical moron. He’ll try his best to come back, But things are looking bad for him, the Pak army has figured this out and will never let him return. Most likely they’ll put him under house arrest. Worst case scenario is assassination, best case scenario they’ll probably tell him to seek asylum in UK and never come back.

    Bajwa and army are definitely in a damage control mode trying their best to repair the relationship with the US/West, cuz Uncle sam still calls the shots at global lending bodies like IMF, WB etc. I think he realizes the precarious situation that Pakistan is in and the folly of putting all their eggs in the chinese basket and all their white elephant projects.

    For now, Big daddy is just doling out some candies in exchange for access to Afghan airspace. The relationship is definitely back on track but most likely will never reach the level it used to be in 80’s, 90’s and 00’s. Pak isn’t that important to uncle sam anymore.

    1. Imran Khan has a lot of popular support among the Pakistani awam. I wouldn’t count him out just yet.

      Unbiased journalists concerned about Human Rights should be doing some reporting here about American backed military establishment of Pakistan is interfering in the democratic process of Pakistan.

      But I haven’t seen any articles on this issue. Instead they will talk about how it is imperative for America to keep engaging in nuclear brinkmanship in Ukraine.

      1. Bawja will get US back on Pak side fully. Khan will still obtain power after.
        Things are looking good for Pak actually. US support will be critical to getting financial assistance from international institutions.

        Once out of crisis, Pak will stabilize. Then China can restart CPEC projects. Main thorn will be Taliban. But Pak army is much stronger than Taliban and Baloch insurgents. I am not sure why there is this sense of despondency. Things are going the right direction.

  29. Watched RRR on Netflix recently after a non-Indian friend of mine sent me a review calling it the best ‘Star Wars Movie’. It was entertaining, but nothing too amazing.

    I notice recently the South Indian film industry has been taking over Bollywood in India.

    So I took a look at the highest grossing films in India…


    Looking at the highest grossing films over the past 5 years: 4 are South Indian, 1 was a Hollywood Avengers movie, 0 Bollywood!

    In the 5 years before that 2 South Indian 3 Bollywood.

    And then pre-2010 basically all the highest grossing films are Bollywood.

    Quite a remarkable and precipitous decline. Anyone know what is going on ?

    1. I think part of it comes down to the fact that the South(esp Andhra and TN) has a much stronger theater going culture. I grew up in Vizag where there are hundreds of small non multiplex theaters. That last time I visited, they’re all still thriving and doing well. All of that means that means more revenue and more “mass” films, i,e movies that are rich in mythology, culture, traditions, rituals etc and movies that the common man can relate to.

      Coming to Bollywood- it’s ailing from many problems:
      -too urbane and elitist.
      -The Khans have mostly moved on, their influence fading away and there is no one to take their place
      -Competition from OTT platforms

      1. Hollywood’s doing worse than Bollywood right now. I think the underlying reason is a generational shift. A lot of theatre goers around the world were older folk, who have stopped going post Covid. Younger people consume almost all media via the internet.

  30. so, mr udrahyvanya is upset enough to point out trushki is spreading and normalizing the bigotry of ethnic cleansers by denying ancestory of kashmiri pandits.

    1. Everyone is a liberal when talking about others, and a conservative when talking about their own people.

    1. There’s no chance that birthright citizenship in the US will ever be even slightly reformed. So it will continually be abused by upper middle class across the world to give their children US citizenship. As India gets richer, I expect a lot more Indian women coming here to give birth.

      1. One saving grace for the US is that the US healthcare is so expensive and complicated to navigate, especially for foreigners. That probably drives down the number of people coming here to give birth.

    1. > Heavy cope from Subcontinental muslims in the comments.

      Feminism will come later to South Asia than to MENA, but it will come. Indeed, if you read elite media like Dawn or Tribune their feminism is really quite militant. Dawn is in a class of its own. One could argue that Dawn doesn’t reach the masses but that’s beside the point. Pakistani elites do and elites typically set the tone for the rest of society (with a timelag).

      What’s been happening with women’s right in Saudi Arabia has been quite exceptional, you can even have women DJs there now. Completely unthinkable even 5 years ago.

      1. Idk why Western liberals are so opposed to MBS. He genuinely seems to want to liberalize Saudi Arabia. If he has his way, then their will be gay parades in Mecca by the end of this decade lol.

        1. Radical Islam and Leftists are in an unholy alliance. Moderate Islam is not part of that alliance. MBS has done some bad but is largely a moderating figure

          Also just geopolitics. MBS is bombing Yemen. He also changes production whenever he feels like and refuses to listen to US pressure on that.

          1. I think there is such an alliance in the West and India but I don’t think it neccessarily extends to the Middle East. Western liberals seem to really want the collapse of the Islamic Republic in Iran over the past few weeks. Erdogan is not a popular figure either. If the liberals had their way, they would have long ago got rid of him. It’s only Turkey’s amazing geographic position that has kept him in power.

          2. from comments in link below

            I think Erdogan still remembers getting a call from Russia in the morning hours one day of 2016: ‘get out of bed and run’. 30 minutes later his hotel was bombed by an F16 that took of from Incirlik Airbase (where US stores/stored its nukes).
            He knows his friends (or at least allies) from his foes.

            Utterly pertinent, and almost completely lost down the memory hole.

            The US believes it can play this or that card in its coercion menu freely, plunking economic coercion on the table, then tossing in some tanks on Lesbos, as though they are all equivalent in their hind-brain impact. They’re not, especially when a betrayal like that of 2016 occurred and Erdogan can find reliable support from other powers.

            Obama sent $2billion in cash through a US bank in Nigeria to NATO troops at the Incirlik Airbase to prepare the coup.

            Erdogan was lucky that Russia had decided to enter the NATO proxy war in Syria in 2015 and had its military base at Tartus (less than 300kms from Incirlik) with its electronic spy system.


  31. I want to say, I was right about trushki. I dont care about other things, really dont. What is strange to see is how many liberals here and learned H’s keep falling for we must debate/ argue, have dialogue with such people. They cant imagine hacks or bigots masquerading as scholars. What is wrong with these people. Most wrongs in the world happen because of such type of mindset who are incapable of identifying hacks/bad faith actors even after years. Including jinna/partition/pakistan. I call these people intellectualy blind. smart people who have the knowledge, but are essentailly blind to hacks and bad faith actors. They end up giving credibility to these types.

    1. Dhanyavaadagalu.
      it is naraka chaturdasi here in ‘south’ and in bangalore south i have been hearing lots of crackers being burst. looks like a large section of the population has gone back to basics and dumped the so called ‘ green’ thing!!!

  32. two points:
    i) i feel local hindus having some pride if one of them becomes a ‘big’man else where, is no sin (as in rishi sunak’s case)
    ii) is it really wrong if people dig into his suname and check if he is a jain or a brahmin?

  33. So Rishi set to become UK’s next PM. Must confess that while I don’t like the Tories, he always struck me as the best of the bunch. Boris was humorous but largely incompetent. Truss was an unmitigated disaster.

    The mess he inherited is gigantic, so if he manages to get re-elected then it will be a minor miracle. Still, it speaks well of the UK to be open to people of different backgrounds at the highest levels. If I look at Germany or France, a non-European leader would be almost unthinkable.

    India and the UK are now in advanced stages of negotiating a free trade deal. Rishi may feel subtle pressure to be tougher on India than Truss or Boris would’ve been in order to show that he doesn’t give undue favor to India because of his background. I hope he doesn’t and I hope critics of any eventual deal won’t use his ethno-religious background against him, because that would be a form of racism.

    1. We can tell by looking at his cabinet. Boris’s cabinet had a lot of Indians and other non-whites. If I had to take a guess, Sunak’s cabinet will be mostly white. Particularly I don’t think any of the Great Offices of the State will be led by non-whites.

  34. after every technocratic leader comes a populist leader. Obama followed by trump, manmohan singh followed by modi. Who comes next is the question. It is a never ending game.

    1. Boris maybe? I wouldn’t really call him a populist though. Just a standard Tory who never combs his hair. But the Tories are very divided so Sunak might get forced out. Still he also seems more competent than the rest so he might stay on.

  35. Sunak hasn’t even become the Prime minster yet(officially), and the guardian has already come out with an article that the “Hindu nationalists” and certain “far right Hindus” might be vey happy.


    Quoting a part of the article:
    “The Hindu right will say: ‘Look, an Indian-origin man took over as PM on Diwali and so it means the Hindu gods have blessed him,’” Seth said. “And the extreme Hindu right will say: ‘It means India has arrived globally and it is thanks to Modi raising India’s standing in the world that we have ‘reverse colonialism’, as in the formerly ruled now ruling the former ruler, Britain.”

  36. tbh I do agree on one thing tho, I can identify fellow Bongos from a mile away and I think it makes sense seeing as that we have around 13-14% Mongoloid admixture along with the 3 components that other south asians have(Neolithic farmer, AASI and Steppe). It’s why it seems like Bengalis cluster off-cline both in these reports and other studies done by those researchers from 2018 for example. That large Mong admix makes us genetically I suppose distinct from other populations and I will agree with that apthk dude, we genuinely have nothing in common with those Punjabis or whatever lmao actually almost all Indians bar the 6% of India that is ethnically Bengali.

    1. The majority of Indian Bengalis are ethnically distinct from Bangladeshis. The slightly East Asian look that you mentioned can only be found among Bangladeshis and Indian Bengalis with Bangladeshi ancestry.

      1. are you indian? is that why you just make shit up and expect people to let it pass?

        1) there is an admixture cline among non-brahmins. most e asian in the east and declines to about 5% in the far west. but it’s clearly there

        2) even brahmins have it, but just diluted by 3-factor. you can pick out bengali and nepali brahmins easily because this ancestry is distinct

        3) plenty of ghoti ppl are east asian looking. i know because I’ve met them. yes, lower %.

        4) the brahmin PM of west bengal looks east asian even

        5) if you respond to this comment with a lie I’ll ban you. also, I’m going to ban anyone who responds to this comment with a lie or insolently

        1. Razib,

          you are right about that it seems that we Bengalis are what, 85% UP/Bihar Dharkar or Kanjar or Srivastava groups on those Oracles on HarappaWorld. It’s legit but that’s to be expected, even those groups themselves are a combination of other groups and so on and so forth.

        2. Most Asiatic up North too, in North Bengal, like in Rangpur (where I am from). I sent you my file, I wonder if you got it (maijled it to the gnxp email). Our Asiatic is overwhelmingly Tibetic tho with some very minor SE Asian, because we are close to Nepal, the Himalayas, Bhutan, Tibet etc. Even my friend who’s from the same region as me got like double his SE Asian in the NE Asian component on HW. Wild.

          I think there are still some Buddhist historical sites remaining in Rajshahi(also North Bengal), on the Barind Tract (Varendra connection?).

        3. I was using the street level definition of ethnicity, involving looks and culture but not genetic components. The comment I was responding to claimed that BD and WB share the same ethnicity but they have nothing in common with the remaining 94 percent of India including Bihar, Jharkhand and Assam. I was pointing out that this is absurd irrespective of the definition of ethnicity one is using. So the fact that both BD and WB are genetically very similar to UP-Bihar and that a low level east asian ancestry exists in WB are not inconsistent with my position.

          I am still not convinced about the east asian appearence. Due to many large migrations of Hindus from BD to WB and the subsequent mixing of populations there are lots of Ghotis with 25-50 percent Bangladeshi ancestry, and some of them have east asian features. But I have never seen a pure Ghoti who looks east asian. This is clearly a subjective matter, probably your definition is different from mine.

      1. @Razib You misunderstood me. The current distribution of East asian ancestry in WB or BD is an uncontroversial topic. However the distribution of e -asian ancestry in 19th century Bengal is a minefield. It’s the Bengali analogue of Aryan Invasion Theory. I think you are not aware of this because you are not very familiar with the cultural history of Bangladesh. So I will make a few general remarks.

        1) The official philosophy of BD is called Muktijuddher chetona (consciousness of the liberation war). It’s essentially a theory about a hypothetical Bengali race. Some Bangladeshis and most WB Bhadraloks think it’s a hoax. Genetics can throw some light here. If someone shows that the east asian ancestry in the western part of WB was small in the 19’th century then this theory gets destroyed.

        2) Appearance based ethnicities : I was not claiming that they are intrinsically valuable. However, since we have no genetic data from 1900, they can be used as pointers. For example if east asian looks are strongly associated with Bangladeshi ancestry in a region, then it’s quite likely that the region had low east asian ancestry in the past.

        3) Verification : One can use the census records. In 1871 the combined population of BD plus WB was 35M. The Hindu population was 18M, almost equally divided between BD and WB. At present there are 70M Hindus in WB and 14M Hindus in BD. If we assume that the Hindu population in BD and WB grew at the same rate, then Hindus in WB have around 35 percent ancestry from BD people who migrated to WB (some BD Hindus migrated to Tripura and Assam). If an average Bangladeshi has 15 percent East asian ancestry, then current WB Hindus got 5 percent East asian ancestry from migrants. Since the western part of WB still has only 6-7 perecnt east asian ancestry, this suggests that the western part of WB had very little east asian ance try before the 20’th century migrations from BD started.

        Sorry for the long comment.

        1. Appearance based ethnicities : I was not claiming that they are intrinsically valuable. However, since we have no genetic data from 1900, they can be used as pointers. For example if east asian looks are strongly associated with Bangladeshi ancestry in a region, then it’s quite likely that the region had low east asian ancestry in the past.

          this is genetically testable with ancestry deconvolution. should be able to see a recent admixture of east asian ancestry into the west bengal base (we know in east bengal the admixture happened a bit after 500 AD)

  37. https://twitter.com/ArainGang/status/1570940770647150593?s=20&t=crq5KbSx701Vw60-jS2O9A

    Biased hateful troll as usual. All elite bodybuilders are on steroids. Most people on steroids still look awful. This guy has good genetics. Period. If this was some Pak Punjabi roiding, Araingang would be saying the opposite. Many elite athletes in general are on PEDs.

    The guy loves to go on about “tanks” from Punjab and go nuthug martial race crap. Let’s see his lifts. He loves his motivated reasoning to back his Biradri ethnosupremacy and radical islamo apologism. This guy doesn’t have a clue about training or nutrition. He just loves to bash anything Hindu and not from his precious “Indusgang.”

    1. Varinder Ghuman who is a lacto-vegetarian was India’s first IFBB pro.

      But wouldn’t get the same response from Arain ji because Ghuman is a non-kammi caste Punjabi.

      1. To be fair, bodybuilders all over are dying from drugs. Not just Pak by any means. Roiding is common in all body building circles.

        Bodybuilding is a contest of who can take the most drugs and not die. Roids are in all sports but most abused in bodybuilding.

        Nonetheless, Araingang is just a supremacist who hangs onto any differences he can grasp at to justify his bigotry. He is just a hate filled troll in general.

        But to look like that guy he is dissing, one has to have great genetics, roids or not. Many people on roids still look nowhere near that. The guy is gifted. Sure roids enhance it a lot. But very few men can look like pro bodybuilder caliber like him, even with all the roids out there.

        Look at WWE Jinder Mahal. Tons of roids. Looks decent but has mediocre muscle bellies and proportions. Just tall with OK sized bones.

        1. A lot of modern athletes are on performance enchanting drugs and for pro bodybuilders its 100% of them.

          The Bengali stuff on this thread reminded me, there is this book with a bunch of pics of bodybuilding yogis from Kolkata from the 1930s before steroids were a thing

          Cant find the book, but here is a video about it.

          These guys have very impressive physiques for that era…


          Most of them are Bengali Bhadralok so not exactly “martial race” either.

  38. Man, my parents are thrilled about Rishi Sunak. I don’t think I’ve seen them this happy since Modi and Yogi won their elections.

    1. He is a hypercompetent leader and a true conservative. He opposes radical leftist agenda

  39. I think The elevation of rishi does increase the challenges to Hindu unity. It is as direct a signal to UCs in India that the Anglo establishment will accept them in the inner circle. It will hasten the exodus of the cream of India’s scientific and management talent. The recent wokeness and visa issues were triggering a rethink in diaspora. Those will be addressed to some extent I suspect.
    OBCs need to realize the game and not squeeze the reservation issue too much. IN can’t be truly sovereign if UCs+OBCs don’t join hands. On the flip side, wokes + Islamist alliance is still going to oppose them working class is going to act as OBCs in the west.

  40. intercaste marriages, everything else is bs. I have no time for trads or orthodoxy. If I had it my way, I would force this.incentives for it politically, economically, educationally. I am not above use of violence in forcing this, one time violence, problem solved for all times.

  41. coimbattur is a nice city. hope it will not become …… you know what!!. sad.
    i have found that coimbattur is truly cosmopolitan with its telagu, kannada, malyalam and of course hindi speakers mixing with the tamils.
    hope the dravidian rulers will not fall for vote bank politics and allow a good place to go bust.
    if the state does not take strict action, this event will galvanise for the breakup of tamilnadu and a kongunadu with coimbattur as capital will emerge.

    1. More from the census. I found this interesting:

      According to the 2021 Census, 7.1% of the Canadian population reported being South Asian. Most of the people in this group were born in South Asia, including India (44.3%), Pakistan (9.2%), Sri Lanka (5.4%) and Bangladesh (3.0%), while 28.7% were born in Canada and 2.1% in Africa. Among South Asian immigrants, 21.4% immigrated to Canada recently (from 2016 to 2021) and 43.4% immigrated from 2001 to 2015. Lastly, 35.2% of South Asians were admitted in to Canada before the 2000s.

      The diversity of the South Asian group can also be observed in the broad range of mother tongues reported in the 2021 Census, with English (36.4%), Punjabi (29.4%), Urdu (11.3%), Hindi (8.2%), Tamil (7.1%) and Gujarati (6.4%) the most commonly reported, alone or with other languages.

      Finally, the top three religions reported by South Asians are Hinduism (29.9%), Sikhism (29.6%) and Islam (23.1%).

      Didn’t expect Bangladesh to have fewer people in the foreign-born category than Sri Lanka. Pakistan is also very low (9.2%) compared to India (44.3%).

      Perhaps this explains the increasingly bitter comments from our resident Pakistani-Canadian commentator 🙂

      These numbers are in stark contrast with the UK where the Indian and Pakistani populations are at a much more even heel.

      Finally, seeing Hindi as mother tongue barely edging out Tamil seems to confirm that the Hindi heartland isn’t sending many people abroad. It’s mostly the richer southern states + Gujarat + Punjab, with a sprinkling of Bengalis and Marathis.

      I suspect there aren’t many Biharis in Canada. Not to mention folks from Orissa, Jharkand etc.

        1. Khalistanis are finally getting a taste of more aggressive blue collar pro India immigrants. IT gang doesn’t stand up for itself in the streets. But street power group origin Hindus are immigrating en mass. This will only worsen

          The gangetic plains haven’t opened up yet. If Canada opens those flood gates, things will go to another level.

          1. Would rather Canada remain Canada than a battleground for old world problems. But yes you are right and I think the flood gates will open and Canada will just become India 2.0. Honestly this the inevitable outcome of being the world’s first “postnational” state.

      1. I don’t understand, what am I supposed to be bitter about LOL? There is nothing surprising to me about this data..

        1. You’ve been complaining about Canada letting in “too many Indians” and “dropping the ball”. Which is probably even true, but you’d just have to live with it. 🙂

          1. The problem is not that Canada is letting too many Indians in, the problem is that Canada is letting too many Indians commit outright immigration scam (via the student visa route). This leads to low quality immigrants arriving in the country and leading to incidents like the one linked in the above video. This started specifically after 2016 and it seems that the authorities are only now catching up to it.

            Also, I have yet to meet a Canadian Hindu from Uttar Pradesh. Met only one from Bihar. The rise in Hindi as mother tongue is probably due to influx of Haryana immigrants that have come in droves in the last few years.

          2. It’s going to get way worse before it gets better. Hopefully no bloodshed over this Khalistan nonsense.

      2. >Finally, seeing Hindi as mother tongue barely edging out Tamil seems to confirm that the Hindi heartland isn’t sending many people abroad.

        Actually they do. Though a huge number of them end up in the middle east. In fact, for the last recent years, UP and Bihar have replaced Kerala as the top source of migrants for UAE and Saudi. I suspect the average middle class family in the Hindi belt just doesn’t have the money or family connections to educate and send their kids to premium destinations(like Canada, US etc). Punjabi’s and Gujju’s have money and family ties. South Indians(Telugus and tamils) have setup their IT consulting businesses. Hindi belt folks don’t have that much going for them in Canada

      3. I would think as a % of country of origin population, Sri Lanka would be quite high. Keep in mind SL population is 22million, just a little bigger than Mumbai

    2. “Hilariously, Sikhs now comprise a greater share of the Canadian population than they do in India”

      Sikh demographics in Punjab are quite shocking, reeling as it is from the three pronged attack of high emigration, low tfr and religious conversion. The khalistan problem (in India) will resolve itself naturally over time, and the vocal contingent in Canada is best ignored. The street fights are signs of desperation rather than anything else, hope the Canadian authorities start clamping down on them

    1. Not a single non-Hindu is going to be convinced. This just looks like whites who complain about reverse racism in universities. The zeitgeist of America is to support ever expanding notions of equality. To fight against it is gauche and prole behavior. Not something a California university will tolerate!

  42. https://unherd.com/2022/10/americas-conservatives-would-never-elect-a-hindu/

    “Here in America, the most surprising storyline in the Conservative Party’s latest psychodrama is the fact that Rishi Sunak has emerged from it. It is impossible to imagine someone like him being chosen to lead the Republican Party, America’s closest equivalent to the Tories — impossible because Sunak describes himself as a proud Hindu.

    Sunak doesn’t eat beef and has a statue of the Indian god Ganesh sitting on his desk. When he was sworn in as an MP in 2017, he placed his hand on the Bhagavad Gita. Such an openly Hindu candidate would have zero chance of leading today’s GOP. This is not because America is more intolerant than Britain, or even because the Republican Party is more intolerant than the Tory Party. It’s because the GOP is far more intolerant religiously.”

    I disagree. Republican Party of old maybe. Things have changed.

    1. What about former Democrat Tulsi Gabbard.

      Though to be fair she was sidelined because anti-war.

      1. yeah republicans are embracing her. She said she is an independent now on Joe Rogan recently. She left the democratic party

    2. The Straussian reading of this piece is an American Jew complaining about the lack of a Jewish president.

    1. Two theories

      1 He sincerely converted. Given his views on women, it seems appropriate for him to embrace the religion that shares his views.

      2 He is grifting. Young Muslim men were one of his largest demographics so now that he has been banned from all major social media, they will put food on his table.

      One thing to note is the power of social media. If he was still on all the major platforms, you would have seen a lot of teenage boys in the West “convert” to Islam. Now that he has been banned, everyone except the most committed has already forgotten him. Reminds me of Milo. Very big around 2015-2016 but completely disappeared when he got banned.

      1. Probably a combination of both. Tate seemed like a guy who was obsessed with questions of women/male-relations as well as LGBT. Islam is very strong on both, but in the West, the pressure is building. For a long time, moslems could preach conservative social rhetoric and just cry islamophobia as the aftermath of 9/11 meant that white liberals had extra sensitivity towards moslems. That’s changing.

        For one, white liberals themselves were much more moderate socially speaking as late as 20 years ago. So moslem social conservatism was just viewed as a diaspora quirk. These days, if you’re not being militantly in favour of LGBT, then you’re inherently suspect. Pressure is building on moslem religious schools in my country in a way that used to be unthinkable even 10 years back.

        If there ever was a scandal, then it was invariably tied to things like anti-Semitism or some nutjob calling for the beheading of infididels etc. Now, the white liberal establishment is starting to look at things like “are they teaching the sex equality curriculum?” or “what about LGBT issues”?

        Tate is admittedly in Romania, where these issues aren’t salient to the same extent but most of his base are in the West and as you say, many of them are 2nd gen moslems who see the assaults on their community and feel powerless to stop it. Well, shouldn’t have had your parents emigrating because the time when moslems could eat their cake and have it too are slowly coming to an end in the West 🙂

        1. I agree. White liberals around 2001 were classical liberals. They didn’t particularly believe in anything. The live and let live types. Naturally they felt sympathy for Muslims in the aftermath of 9/11 and the subsequent War on Terror.

          Not the case anymore. Liberals have a religion(Wokism) too now that they believe with as much sincerety and conviction as any Muslim in Afghanistan. So Islam will be treated as any other ideology that stands in the way of “progress”.

          Also, what country are you living in, if you don’t mind telling?

    2. Masculine guy accepts masculine religion. More news at 10. Most people I know including myself agree with 90% of the things he said so it’s no surprise. Although I think he’s doing it for a publicity stunt.

      1. I doubt you agree with 90%. Some of his views are quite out there. And yes I agree. He does a lot for publicity. I don’t think he should have been cancelled. He raises some good points for sure too. But some of his stuff like people not believing in depression will make depression go away is just foolish. But it gets views. He is the greatest professional troll of all time. Many Muslim men will now sign up for Hustler’s Univeristy. Are you a member?

        1. //But some of his stuff like people not believing in depression will make depression go away is just foolish.//

          This is misconstrued because he talked about ‘clinical’ depression. People who don’t believe they have ‘clinical’ depression are more likely to do something to get out of their depressed state rather than popping pills and hoping for the best, because they don’t believe they have a medical problem – at least this is the point and I don’t really disagree. I don’t think he has ever really denied the existence of depression and these are the types of things that casual observers missed, and labelled him some type of ”misogynist”.

          Andrew Tate only became famous because he was saying politically incorrect things to a western male audience, what most Muslim clerics tell their Muslim audience every Friday, with perhaps some more sugar coating.

          1. Dont know this guy, but I agree Qureshi on mental health stuff, there are many non-pharmacological interventions (working out, mindset, community support, meditation etc) that can help.

            It is not as simple as making a decision, but I think that is the first step.

          2. ““Depression is not real. Feeling depressed is real. So, you can feel depressed, but you feel depressed and that is a natural, biological, evolutionary trigger for you to change something in your life. That’s your own mind telling you ‘you’re unhappy about X’.”

            “I believe that feeling depressed is real. I don’t believe that depression as a clinical disease is real,” the controversial internet star said.

            MDD is a medical problem. Read the DSMV. Also, non pharmacologic therapy is a huge part of appropriate depression treatment. That is not what is being discussed. If you look into psychotherapy Sumit a huge part of it is encouraging many of those interventions.

            Some people do need medication. Some don’t. Medication has saved lives in many cases. I have seen people turn their entire loves around with SSRIs. But his point about depression not being “real” is BS.

            There is a whole neurochemical mechanistic established basis for MDD. It is real. Many people falsely believe they have it to justify their own failings. That is different. But this guy doesn’t want to get into nuance. No one is misconstruing.

            The guy is just wrong. He speaks on a bunch of stuff that he has no idea about sometimes. When he gets called out, he just says he is joking or that is his personal experience. He is a good marketer who appeals to the insecurities of many men who felt left behind by society. Some of what he says is true. Some isn’t. A lot is in jest. But jest is also a backup cover at times. He plays the game well. So well that he got banned.

          3. warlock, you are just defending your profession.

            See the following redflags:

            ”There is no objective testing available to diagnose depression,”

            “MDD is more common in people without close interpersonal relationships, and who are divorced or separated, or widowed.”

            “No difference in the prevalence of MDD has been found among races and socioeconomic status. ”


          4. I very much trust your Google search and expert opinion on psychiatric disease. Thank you come again.

          5. “People who don’t believe they have ‘clinical’ depression are more likely to do something to get out of their depressed state rather than popping pills and hoping for the best, because they don’t believe they have a medical problem – at least this is the point and I don’t really disagree.”

            Many people who are depressed and could benefit from therapy or meds just keep denying it. This is especially rampant among S Asians. They do nothing about it and deny mental illness exists. They go nowhere or backwards in life. Some end up killing themselves. I sincerely hope you have no relatives with this affliction. Getting appropriate care is important.

  43. Another classic analysis by Satyajit Das
    Whatever the length, dimensions and outcome, Ukraine has exposed already present major differences in the world. In particular, the West’s response -trade restrictions, sanctions and asset seizures- will outlive the military actions and prove more damaging.

    Having been relatively isolated until the 1990s, countries like Russia, China and India are not fully integrated into the global market system. Legacy structures are capable of reverting to a more closed economy.

    In recent years, these countries have increasingly redirected policies and investment towards their home markets, abandoning reflexive globalism. The objective is the greatest possible independence and control over strategic sectors and essential products.

    The US is substantially self-sufficient in food and energy. However, it has outsourced large components of its manufacturing and would have to re-skill its workforce to re-shore activities.

    Attitudinal differences are important. Asiatic patience and memory breed resilience. A fatalistic acceptance of life’s constraints and caution about progress makes the non-West more resistant to setbacks and reversals.


    1. it has outsourced large components of its manufacturing and would have to re-skill its workforce to re-shore activities.

      The re-shoring fantasy resurfaces every other year and nobody seems to learn anything from it as it invariably fails with complete certainty each time.

      The US is simply too rich to do a lot of manufacturing profitably without massive subsidies propping everything up. Is the US govt going to give every sector a massive subsidy to reshore a few jobs? The answer is obviously no, which is why the technocratic establishment of the US has consistently rejected these political clarion calls.

      The chip sector has special national security needs and as such it gets preferential treatment, but even that is questionable whether it will succeed in the long term. And even if it does, then the cost will be exorbitant (compared to the alternatives) and the amount of jobs created negligible. When US politicians talk about re-shoring, they’re often linking it to jobs. That means lower-end stuff which makes no sense to subsidise.

      Meanwhile, another fantasy is “decoupling”. For a vast array of manufacturing, there is simply no alternative to China.


    2. When Satyajit writes, I read carefully.

      I first got to know of him around 2000. I had got into the Bonds and Derivatives, seemingly by accident with absolutely no formal education in Financial Engineering So picked up Risk Management and Financial Derivatives: A Guide to the Mathematics (1998) and got myself some of the theory.

      Not quite accidental, because in 1998 Weather Derivatives was a brand new field. I had an academic background in Oceanography/Climate and self taught computer skills. So got hired by a Weather Derivative startup on Wall Street to develop/code Pricing Models. The partners cum Traders, the Silverstein brothers got me upto speed on the Practical aspects of Pricing Derivatives. Around 2001 with WTC destruction the company went bust (long story). Then got the opportunity to move into Bonds and Derivatives including Credit Derivatives.

      Anyway back to Satyjit Das. Very incisive thinking. He was also one who cautioned about a possible Financial crash as early as 2006 or so. Another was Raghuram Ranjan, with his 2005 paper “Has Financial Development Made the World Riskier”. I read them both and others such as Tanta on Calculated Risk, and it all made sense because I was in the thick of it. I dont do stock market or bets, but this seemed sure. So made small bets (which I could afford to loose) against the market by buying out of the money PUTs. In the crash made 10X of the bets.
      Incidentally Raguram Ranjans international high profile positions, he is still an Indian Citizen.

    3. A tribute to Tanta (Doris Dungey) thru whom I learnt the bigger picture of the field I worked in at that time

      She passed away on Nov, 30 2008. Early as 2006 Tanta was indicating that this whole economic demise was probably underway.

      I just loved her writing. Clear succinct, and extremely amusing.
      I think she has coined a phrase for these times to describe the distribution of risk, “Circle jerk of risk”. For those who dont know what a circle jerk is, look it up in http://www.urbandictionary.com



    4. When Satyajit writes, I read carefully.

      I first got to know of him around 2000. I had got into the Bonds and Derivatives, seemingly by accident with absolutely no formal education in Financial Engineering So picked up Risk Management and Financial Derivatives: A Guide to the Mathematics (1998) and got myself some of the theory.

      Not quite accidental, because in 1998 Weather Derivatives was a brand new field. I had an academic background in Oceanography/Climate and self taught computer skills. So got hired by a Weather Derivative startup on Wall Street to develop/code Pricing Models. The partners cum Traders, the Silverstein brothers got me upto speed on the Practical aspects of Pricing Derivatives. Around 2001 with WTC destruction the company went bust (long story). Then got the opportunity to move into Bonds and Derivatives including Credit Derivatives.

      Anyway back to Satyjit Das. Very incisive thinking. He was also one who cautioned about a possible Financial crash as early as 2006 or so. Another was Raghuram Ranjan, with his 2005 paper “Has Financial Development Made the World Riskier”. I read them both and others such as Tanta (Doris Dungey) on Calculated Risk, and it all made sense because I was in the thick of it. I dont do stock market or bets, but this seemed sure. So made small bets (which I could afford to loose) against the market by buying out of the money PUTs. In the crash made 10X of the bets.

      Incidentally Raguram Ranjans international high profile positions, he is still an Indian Citizen.


  44. Half asleep,
    Keep coping, you little pajeet rat. LOL at you trying to do some damage control by using the “Street definition” of genetics on an actual genetic science blog hahaha wtf
    Also, similarity as in ethnic similarity. My point was that Bongs were a mix of the 3 components that all south asians are +an additional 14% Mongoloid. Ofc no shit that people who would have 3 of those components would be similar to us seeing as that is most of our ancestry as well. No fucking shit. The point was that the additional substantial Mongoloid component in us Bengalis make us distinct which is why on these PCa analysis things, you see us fall off the South Asia cline but close by, because of that component.
    And also you’re a cow pee drinking pajeet lmao stop tryna do the WE WUZ BENGALIS N SHIEET I myself know many Indian Bengalis and half-Indian Bengalis irl and they would laugh at you if they read your bs. They understand that the differences are religious and political, which are ofc huge not genetic.

      1. Anti brown. But is commonly used by Browns in periphery who think they are magically exempt because they either haven’t looked in a mirror in awhile or are just plain delusional

        1. thewarlock,

          “pajeet” is anti-Indian. Please don’t lump in all brown people with that, lol. Even if it is used towards someone who is brown but not Indian, a simple “I am not Indian” is enough to suffice. lol

          Also to Razib,

          Yes, I will stop using that if that is not allowed. Fair enough.

          1. Paki is anti Pakistani ?

            These are racial slurs used against brown South Asians in general.

            Do you live in the homeland or abroad ?

            I have read an upper caste Indian use it as a slur against lower caste Indians. On a Twitter account someone linked here. Homeland slurs are different I guess.

          2. I disagree. Try to say you are Bangladeshi or Pakistani to the most common users who use the slur. They won’t give a shit. It was born on 4chan and mostly used in similar spaces. They lump all desis together. But good you agreed to stop using it. Unless you are some phenotypic exception, to the type of racist clowns who use that slur, you will still fall under that categorization.

            I was called “paki” by racist white guys in Britain on more than one occassion. If I had told themI was Indian, they would not have given a shit. And frankly, would not bother anyway. I have some sense of solidarity with all S Asians with these types of slurs. They are mostly just anti Desi slurs. The types who use them don’t care about subcontinental nuances.

          3. thewarlock,

            You’re free to disagree but on tiktok 4chan etc I genuinely don’t see that used against non-Indian brown people. In fact, the people who use it the most are other brown people, be they from Nepal or Bengalis or Pakistanis or diaspora from Guyana Trinidad and stuff. We are literally the biggest users of the word. I’ve seen people from these countries simply say I’m not from India and boom the word isn’t used against them again in the threads/forums/ comment sections etc

            Sorry to hear about your experiences in the UK, being called Paki, but that’s a different word and historical situation entirely.


            Canada. I’m also not from India nor do I have any connections to it(I’m from Bangladesh). also, I dislike Indian twitter users honestly I tend to avoid stuff related to that kind of stuff on that platform.

          4. “Pajeet” is mostly used by subcontinent origin anglophone diaspora users to make fun of more AASI on average peoples. They adopted it recently from racist Whites, thinking somehow that they are exceptions to what White people are referring to, when they make fun of desis. You hear it among upper caste Nepalis, N Indians, and NW Biradri groups from India and Pak most often in alt right spaces. Very rarely have I seen Bangladeshis or Guyanese use it. But sure, probably happens on occassion. Funny thing is that I have seen the aforementioned former groups use it against Guyanese and Bangladeshis quite a bit.

            The whole thing is the usual variation seen in the diaspora of
            Non Desi makes fun of Desi. Desi instead of showing any sense of solidarity just passes the buck and says it is referring to another type of Desi. This tends to follow down the classic racialized steppe: aasi ladder.

            “Pajeet” itself uses the “jeet” suffix. It was to denigrate early Desi immigrants in anglophone nations who were more proportionally Punjabi early on. Regardless, the types who invented it viewed all browns as one large cluster fuck of lesser people.

            Trash people invented the slur. And tribal south Asians just adopted it and claim they aren’t the lesser people it was meant to originally refer to. Instead of just refuting it all together. Classic type of divisions that make S Asia easy to exploit in general.

          5. thewarlock,

            You’re probably too old l I’m 20 and amongst Western Bengalis on South Asian Tiktok, it is quite commonly used to denigrate Punjabis, North Indians and really Indians in general. They’re not niche either, these users accounts and comment sections get tons of comments.

            Also lol what? AASI ladder? This is some serious cope. You’re trying to tie in your weird ethno-nationalist agenda in all of this. Has nothing to do with it. The word is quite often used to denigrate the groups I just mentioned. In fact, even Punjabis use it to make fun of Tamils and other Indians. You probably don’t use tiktok much but whatever

          6. thewarlock,

            You’re probably too old l I’m 20 and amongst Western Bengalis on South Asian Tiktok, it is quite commonly used to denigrate Punjabis, North Indians and really Indians in general. They’re not niche either, these users accounts and comment sections get tons of comments.

            Also lol what? AASI ladder? This is some serious reaching. You’re trying to tie in your weird ethno-nationalist agenda in all of this. Has nothing to do with it. The word is quite often used to denigrate the groups I just mentioned. In fact, even Punjabis use it to make fun of Tamils and other Indians. You probably don’t use tiktok much but whatever

          7. Yes, I don’t use Tik Tok. I think the app is part of PRC plan (perhaps initially accidental) to damage the brains of Americans. It is working very well. Maybe not original intention. But there is a reason they censor the shit out of it now.

            My understanding is that Tik Tok and 4chan just take you down hard-core confirmation bias worm holes. All social media and boards do it but those two are notorious. So I am sure that is adding to your view

        2. thewarlock,

          You said you didn’t use Tiktok. Well, that makes sense. You’re clearly not aware of the way it is used in a modern, everyday context and you clearly haven’t seen what I am referring to which kinda settles things, makes my point quite clear.

          I don’t really care too much about those theories of yours or anyone else’s, anything that is used not in moderation can be quite bad for your health, be it physical or mental. Tiktok is no different. If you can’t control yourself, yes it might do some damage mentally. Otherwise, it’s a pretty entertaining platform and really, it’s the modern-day town square with its popularity and universal use.

      2. Like I said. It was originally meant to denigrate all Browns.
        Browns got offended and then cope by thinking it refers to Browns other than themselves. Then they try to spread that. Funny thing is that you might call a Punjabi Pajeet and he will call you one right back and say you look more “Pappu” than him. The whole thing is just goofy. The fact that everyone calls everyone it just shows the reality. It is a pan Brown slur.

        There is no cope. I am not sure what you are referring to. I have seen a trend of higher on average steppe groups use it to denigrate lower on average steppe groups. That’s the trend I’ve seen.

        Many one day it will the “N word” for S Asians and all will embrace it.

        What’s poppin my Pajeet!

        1. thewarlock,
          It would not apply to me and other non Indian browns because the typical “p” looks like a Punjabi. You’re trying to include the whole AASI/Steppe divide to further your own agenda when in reality the Punjabis and other North Indians who have the most of that componet(Steppe) are known to be the stereotype and it was formulated to be used against Indians. So you do know what I am talking about. It wouldn’t be effective if it was used against me.
          One time a Punjabi tried to use that against him but then I started listing all the Punjabis with the “eet” ending and he shut the hell up lmao. So no, there are levels to this and they can’t use it against me(us). It’s funny.

          I see it used quite commonly against North Indians, Punjabis and Indians in general by Bengali bros on Tiktok and other forums quite regularly, the Pakistanis also use it against Indians. It’s just a generic anti-Indian slur.

        2. Warlock, you got it a bit wrong wrong.

          ”Pajeet” is a slur to refer to Indians. Does not apply to Pakistanis or Bangladeshis. Infact it is specifically referring to Indian Hindus or Sikhs since ‘Pajeet’ sounds like a Hindu or a Sikh name.

          Now if 4chan boards and other non-S.Asians also call Pakistanis Pajeets, that’s because they want to piss off Pakistanis by calling them ”Indians”. See the difference?

          1. some of you guys act like the only racists are sophisticated racists. who cares if its origins are for hindus and sikhs? we look the same to them if we are not from that background.

            similarly, hindus are routinely called cameljockeys and terrorists. but you’d be an idiot to explain “well actually, you here are referring to Muslims, my ancestors…”

          2. I think you guys are highly overestimating, perhaps out of convenience, the distinctions non S Asians, even non-nationalist type S Asians, unlike yourselves, see among Indians, Pakistanis, and Bangladeshis. But ok sure.

            I have been called “Paki” before. My parents received hate in random places after 9/11, including in elevators in office buildings, grocery stores, and movie theaters. These distinctions are not what you want them to be.

            Part of this isn’t even about technicalities. It is a rational fear that many online non-Indian nationalists have. They know that in the Alt-Right meme space Indians have a horrible reputation historically. So they play every card they can to run from it. The reality is that the types of people who populate those spaces almost always never see a distinction.

          3. On another note, Bangladeshis do look like Indian. Yes a lot of them have a tinge of mongloid but a lot of them don’t and it’s really a toss up.

          4. Razib, well if Sikhs were called Sandniggers, the term sandniggers was basically a slur for Arab Muslims and even Sikhs knew it even though they got lumped together with them because of the turban. Ofcourse racists will be racists and most people don’t do nuance when indulging in racism.

          5. Same2same is of course a lie but there is more overlap in S Asia than the ethnocentrics want to admit. I have been asked if I am from pretty much every single region barring far North Punjab/Kashmir/Iranic parts of Pak.

            My generic brown lookingness can pass in many places as one of the solidly established communities in those places with decent proportion of the population. And I also do feel some S Asian solidarity. When a bunch of drunk assholes called me a “paki,” I knew that telling them I was “Indian” wouldn’t change jack shit and would just be pathetic, in and of itself.

          6. You’ve gotta go back about 25 years to really understand the logogenesis of the Pajeet.


            These guys are performing the idea of Pajeet in a way that id argue Apu and the guy from Short Circuit were not. If nothing else, this was a great film.

  45. Out of the loop on the Bengali stuff but there are 28 administrative divisions (states and union territories) in India.

    West Bengal is only the 9th most East Asian subdivision genetically. (Granted most significant in terms of total population probabaly)

    India is a diverse place.

    1. Sumit,

      what are you even talking about? Seriously, what? I’m talking about genetic makeup of different ethnic groups. Of course the 7 Sister states are fully Asian or whatever but they’re not brown. The point was that Bengalis are AASI+Neolithic Farmer+Steppe+15% Mong, which is actually pretty distinct and unique in terms of makeup because the rest of South Asia is literally just 3 of those excluding the Mong. Ofc the other exceptions are some Assamese, Nepalese and Burusho people. Extreme minorities. The point was that this makes us fall off the South Asia cline (but still South Asian). Actually, some of Razib’s own graphs show this, along with other PCA plots from elsewhere.

      Also Bengali people (ofc excluding Bengali Brahmins, who aren’t really Bengalis) are about 5-6% of India. I suppose that is the only link us Bengalis of East Bengal/Bangladesh have with them. Some of my friends are Indian Bengali people or mixed with em and I can tell them apart from others quite easily, and they can do that too. Hell, some of my white friends are able to do that too because they grew up around a fair few of us lmao

      1. You can feel whatever you want. The vast majority of people will just think “Indian” when they see the vast majority of Bangladeshis. Yes there is a unique look but overlap is significant

        1. Thewarlock,
          lol my white friends who grew up in areas with significant Bong populations can tell us apart from Indians. Don’t generalize. That just makes you look emotional. Plus, brown people can’t tell the difference between Germans and Swedish people or Nigerian people and Angolese people. THis is no different. This is literally a phenomenon people learn about in neuroscience and psych courses in uni lol ppl cant identify other races well, which is why Asians get that stereotype.

          Also, there are reasons for that. It’s because we are brown and we are outnumbered in the West by you Indians which is why. I could link numerous Tiktoks with thousands and thousands of likes with Western Bengalis talking about what ethnicity people think they are. Many other ones literally get told they are “Asian fishing” because of their facial features despite being full Bengali. Search up the user “Rarity” some French Bengali girl, great example.

          Also its not about feeling lol it’s about data which I’ve mentioned multiple times now. You’re on the Indian cline, along with the non Pashtun Pakistanis and the rest of India bar Assam. We are not but we are still brown ofc

          1. I have lived in heavily Brown areas. The most Brown areas of all of the US. I have my experiences. You have yours.

            People have asked me if I am Bengali enough times. And I have 0 east Asian. If you have been here long enough, you know what I look like.

        2. yeah, this is my experience.

          the thing is some nationalist/racialist/etc.-ist paks, indians and bangladeshis (an sri lankans and nepalese) make strong distinctions and get mad if you are chill about it. personally, i’m american, and literally lived 5 years of my life in bangladesh, which was ten years old as a country when i left. so i’m not super identified.

        3. thewarlock,

          regardling your phenotype, you said that you have been asked if you are Bengali “enough times”. Who were you asked that by? You posted some IMGURs of yourself before(that was you right?) and I have seen your face but you don’t look like a Bongo to me, at all. Perhaps the people that asked you were people who were not us, or perhaps they were referring to Bengali-speakers who weren’t ethnic Bengali people (think Bihari people, or Brahmins or something). You’re Gujarati Brahmin right? Well there you go.

          1. Yes that was me.

            My ancestry is Guju Vania. And I think I pass best from Northern Maha to Southern Rajasthan, where my 23&me places me. But I can still pass in other places. And two Bengali doctors, 1 Bengali nurse, and 1 Pak kid in college asked me from just what I remember.

            I could tell most people that Razib is my uncle, and they would likely believe me.

            Anyway, we have different experiences. Thanks for at least being respectful towards me. I wasn’t sure if you were going to be or start using slurs. I just wish people were a little nicer to each other with these disagreements. I have done my fair share of assholishness. But I realize that it doesn’t accomplish anything.

            And maybe I blow up the steppe to aasi a bit. But that’s just my experience, especially online. I still have enough trolls attempt to harass me with that stuff. Direct messages and all. It just gets old, but it keeps coming up.

      2. Of course the 7 Sister states are fully Asian or whatever but they’re not brown.

        with the exception of nagas all the more east asian looking groups have *some* south asian shift, from only a bit among the mizos, to a lot in manipur and Meghalaya. their denial of south asian ancestry is like some bengalis denying east asian ancestry.

      3. @PencilMan

        >pretty distinct and unique

        no that makeup is definitely not “pretty distinct and unique”, pahadi people of the himalayas from himachal to western nepal are similar(including a sizeable no. of KPs too) and they are definitely not an extreme minority. (i know u mentioned nepalese people but such popln is much bigger extending towards their contiguous regions northeastwards)

        1. Garwhalis are 2 million people in terms of population and Nepalis are included in this and even then if you included them they are still about what 15 or so million because many Nepalese are Mongoloids, fully.. Kashmiris Pandits score only trace amounts. Again, these Indians are way too emotional lmao

          Stop begging it, buddy. Kashmiris don’t score significant mong and they’re literally right beside Punjabis, genetics wise, every single oracle confirms this. Garwhalis and Nepalese are also significant minoritities. Literally every single HW spreadsheet confirms these things so stop spreading your Indian nationalist propaganda, it’s quite cringey. We all KNOW Bihar or UP (bordering regions of Nepal) don’t have tremendous numbers of these high Mongoloid brown folks. The Baltis and Burushos themselves combined are like 500-600k in numbers

          1. @PencilMan
            Why do you need to be such obnoxious to me and to everyone disagreeing with you? I was just trying to correct(which i knew was going to be futile) and was in no way disrespectful. And stop assuming stuff about people on the internet, just cuz I happen to not agree with your statement doesn’t make me an Indian nationalist/emotional. If anything it ends up seeming as if you’re projecting onto me; your earlier statements in this thread are enough to discern the emotional commentor.
            As to your data about non-Bong populations with such genetic makeup, again, you’re mistaken. Uttarakhand has a population of more than 11mn, of which the Kumaonis, Garhwalis and Jaunsaris make up the majority(easily around 10mn considering a sizeable popln that has migrated for economic reasons, a major development issue for the state since it’s genesis). Not only Garhwalis, but the other two autochthonous communities have a similar ancestry. West Nepal has an estimated popln of around 15mn, while Himachal has a popln of around 7.5mn(adjusted for probable inflation in 2022 census). This sums up to a rounded-down-to-million figure of 30mn or 3 crore people. And I’m not even considering the Mithila people of Bihar which have just as much “NEAsian” or “ESiberian” component in them as in Uttarakhand and HP pahadi people, and are an estimated 80mn people. Now that doesn’t look like an “extreme minority” for India atleast to me. What I’m trying to get at is that to me it seems like you’re trying to distinguish the genetic makeup of Bangladeshis from the rest of SAsia as “unique” for whatever reason, and that definitely isn’t the truth.
            The fact that you refer to the whole of the Uttarakhand popln as Garhwali is telling of how much you know about these “extreme minorities”. Also, Bihar and UP are not in the northeast direction of Nepal, so my last comment didn’t concern them at all.

          2. Why do you have to use such a rude tone to disagree? It ends up just distracting from the convo and makes it veer off topic

        2. Post the HW numbers for these Mithila people or don’t bother talking. LMAO these Indians literally conjur up numbers out of nowhere. Also, I’m talking about ethnic groups. Bihari results are available on Anthrogeneca, and they don’t score Mongoloid or trace Amounts of it. So you don’t have any grounds for it.

          I’ve seen the Garwhali results and yes they’re kind of similar which I already acknowledged before. Nepal is also not fully brown people considering they have Sherpas, Magars and other Asiatic peoples there. Nepal also has tons of Biharis who don’t even score like them and they are referred to as “Madhesis”, both just neutrally and as an insult. Why are you blatantly lying to me? Seriously Razib was right, you Indians really do love making stuff up out of nothing.

          These people are like 137k lmao you are such a Hindu nationalist liar holy shit. Is this guy for real?

          Kumaonis are 2.2 million.

          You understand you’re only proving me right tho, right? These are extreme minorities and not all people from Uttarakhand resemble them genetically. Stop inflating the numbers, you liar.

          You’re obnoxious for spreading lies. Prove what you’re saying. 80 million lmao my ass. I’ve seen Biharis, they look like generic North Indians, phenotypically and in the Anthrogenica results. The burden of proof is on you. I can accept Kumaonis and Garwhalis have the combinatoin I’m talking about because I’ve seen their results. Also, your 30 million number is laughable. I’m talking about browns. Your population numbers include everyone, including the Uttar Pradesh and Bihari migrants and Punjabi migrants in Uttarakhand.

          Again, you’re an emotional Indian. Imagine using Jaunsaris to one up when they’re 150k in numbers lmao and you don’t even have a database of Mithila results but let’s face it, we have a whole bunch of Bihari results on Anthrogenica and they don’t score the combo LOL so again, keep coping. Your propaganda won’t work. We, the Nepalese groups, the Burusho, Garhwalis fall off cline because of Mongoloid admixture

          1. you should be less rude. unlike me you can’t just delete/ban people

            What I’m trying to get at is that to me it seems like you’re trying to distinguish the genetic makeup of Bangladeshis from the rest of SAsia as “unique” for whatever reason

            in his ‘defense’ bangladeshis are clearly off-cline. it jumps out in PCA. and there are 200 million bengalis, and even west bengalis jump off cline. EVEN BENGALI BRAHMINS do, tho to a lesser extent.

            that being said, most of our ancestry is the same as biharis, and burmese call the rohingya black indians, so the 10-20% goes only so far 🙂

    1. Out of all the Indian CEOs, he seemed the most FOB. His accent still has the Indian twang.

      Had the Meta-Wire Email been written by him, I would have half believed it.

    2. He got a great compensation package and basically forced Elon to buy the company at an inflated price.

      Well played actually.

    3. dumbass didn’t even have brains to work from home on friday! got escorted out. LoL.

      what else did he expect musk to do after the deal closed? he was pretty much asking for it. in a way, he deserved it for being so dumb and naive.

    1. If trump really said that, it means, he still has the ability to know which buttons to press. He is the first person who reached the highest position in western political post with incredible instincts and not much education (perhaps, just my assumption). However we here in India know how people can reach top positions without much sophistication or education and purely on instincts and people skills. Also reason why most of humanities for me is bs. If a guy like trump can beat down someone like hillary, and is beaten instead by biden who is not academically as good as hillary. It tells us that universities are selling prestige degrees and in the real world, in all people skill jobs, they are probably not useful.

  46. Gujaratis have a unique look and culture.

    I have decided we have nothing in common with you non-gujju browns.

    Gujaratis come from 6000 years of settled civilization.

    Nothing links us to Pakis, Pajeets, or East Pakijeets

    Your women crudely drape the Pallus of their saris over their backs. Or worse, the wear wear the same “salwar kameez” as the men.

    Being barbarians, neither your food, nor your words are sweet. The joys of Farsan are not known in your lands.

    Even the literate among you draw inefficient lines on top of your words, Gujarati is like Python we just use indentation.

    For the Hindus we have Dwarka, For the Jains Palitana, and for the Muslims we have the oldest mosque in South Asia built during the time of the prophet himself.

    We also had a king (Dharapatta of the Maitrakas) who followed the Mithraic Mysteries, so we have always had significant ancient Roman links.

    It is entirely possible that Crassius’ great grand father was a Gujarat trader from Barugaza (bharuch) But we need more ancient DNA to prove or disprove.

    This girl is ethnic Gujarati. She represents the common Gujarati look alongside Aditya Pancholi and Freddie Mercury.


    (Just lampooning the style of the commentary I often see in brown spaces online)

  47. My generic brown lookingness can pass in many places as one of the solidly established communities in those places with decent proportion of the population. And I also do feel some S Asian solidarity. When a bunch of drunk assholes called me a “paki,” I knew that telling them I was “Indian” wouldn’t change jack shit and would just be pathetic, in and of itself.

    re browns. i think it’s a 20/80 rule. 80% of people are 20% of the variation. the other 20% are 80% of the variation and push the edges into almost-white-looking to almost-australian-aboriginal-looking (and a few almost-burmese/tibetan looking).

    1. She’s telling the anglos exactly what they want to hear and getting paid for it. Don’t hate the player, hate the Game.

  48. Dheeraj,

    lol. You are an Indian nationalist spreading lies and propaganda

    -Jaunsaris are 150k people

    -Kumaonis are 2.2 million but sure add them, still an extreme minority

    -Uttarakhand was part of Uttar Pradesh thus has plenty of generic non-admixed North Indians, why are you using the entire state’s population as a whole?

    -Mithilas, 80 million? Huh? I don’t care how big they are, Biharis score like generic North Indians on HW, and we have seen plenty of results of their on Anthrogenica, they score no or trace Mongoloid, certainly not the combination being discussed (substantial and high Mong like Garhwhalis and Bongs). Burden of proof is on you to show me a database with their scores but we’ve seen Bihari results, they’re North Indian lol

    -many of Nepal’s people are “pure” or close to pure Mongoloids with some minor South Asian shift (Sherpas being the purest) and there are tons of Bihari migrants there called Madheshis. Stop using whole population numbers lol it’s disingenuous

    -IDC about West Nepal. Post the ethnic groups there, and the percentages. That’s what matters here. Here’s my prediction: it’s filled with Hindi migrants, lol.

    Again, it’s obvious you’re emotional. Don’t bother if you can’t post facts. We’ve seen plenty of Bihari results on Anthrog lol your numbers hilarious.

    This means Garhwhalis, many Nepalese, Kumaonis and Assamese folks have the same combo as us Bengalis. Nepal is a different country and Assamese and Garwhali Kumaonis are extreme minorities so outside of the Bengalis(non Brahmins) in India, we have literally nothing in common with you. Quit it with your aggressive Hindu nationalist propaganda “WE ARE THE SAME SAAAAR”. False!

    1. @PencilMan bud,

      I must admit that you’re the first to look through my sly online persona to spot the deep-seated Hindu-nat fervour within me, and I’m quite impressed. I guess it’s time to change my tactics:)

      As to the Bong ancestry thing, I wish I could make another rebuttal, but what’d be the point? A Hindu-nat being disingenuous yet again, that’s what it’d be! And, to be honest, had I known about your association with anthrogenica, I’d never have engaged with you on ancestry topics.

      1. Dheeraj,
        very funny sarcasm but ur bias is obvious! Sorry but you and the non-Pashtun Pakistanis are one and the same as you are all directly on the Indian cline and have the exact same genotype(3 components) while us Bongs and those Himalayan groups fall far off cline and are 3 components+15% Mong(Bengalis). We also look phenotypically quite different from you Indians and Pakistanis(you guys look the same), very much so. The stereotype would be someone like that Punjabi kid actor from Diary of a Wimpy Kid, that Karan Brar or some other person from that ethnicity or some other Norht Indian
        Your emotional outburts were rather weird lol.

        1. @PencilMan

          >We also look phenotypically quite different from you

          bhai I’m not sure what you’ll make of it, but as I’ve stated on a couple of occasions on BP in the past and some might even remember, I’m a kumaoni(one of those minorities that you say are the most similar to Bongs in terms of mong%, NESiberian% to be precise if i’m not mistaken). Don’t want to burst ur bubble, but it is what it is. We’re same same and not much different bro:)

          >you and the non-Pashtun Pakistanis are one and the same as you are all directly on the Indian cline and have the exact same genotype

          as much as I adore Araingang bro(and Racelearner veerji too) and want to join his circlejerk of a blog to vaunt my higher than usual steppe, I’ve to make do with the fact that I’m a “Chink” in “Aryan” clothing lmao! But you know what’s the biggest plus of having such admixture for u, me and Razib is? It’s the best of four worlds, as close to our IVC, iranian pastoralist, steppe forefathers as to Genghis, the KHAGAN:) Now tell me, how many SAsians can make a claim anywhere close to that cool? Can’t this be something to brag about while dating non-mong chicks? I might have found the key to fix the debacle my dating life has been lmao

          Cheers to the FOUR COMPONENT SUPREMACY!
          (and hope u’ll pardon my emotional breakdown here yestrday)

  49. i think it is hard to say bengalis are totally different when 85% of our ancestry is from bihar peasants. but, i also think it is hard to say we are NOT clearly and noticeably different when 15% of our ancestry comes from east asians that is rare in most other indian groups (except munda and the himalayan fringe populations)

    1. In the case of

      Dheerajsy vs. Pencilmanison, with honorable Cheif Justice Khan presiding over the decision,

      The Supreme Court of BP hearby declares Bengalis

      Similar [Not Same] but Equally S Asian

  50. yea but despite the fact that so many bengalis look visibly east asian (i don’t look too east asian, but ppl who have met me IRL notice when i’m wearing short sleeve shirts, which is most of the time, i have very little arm hair), we have very little east asian cultural influence at all. the only thing i can think of are some pronunciations east of the padma that seem influenced by tibeto-burman languages. bengali Muslims will talk about their trivial west asian ancestry (hard to detect in 99% of the cases) 1000-thousand times than than the 10-20% east asian ancestry east of the padma.

    1. Razib,

      I think the whole West Asian thing is more online than anything, wouldn’t you agree? Anyways, on the Mong ancestry, I think the average Bengali knows on some level that we have a very substantial amount of Mong, it’s just not discussed much I suppose. Like you and I and many other Bongs know, we have many friends family relatives etc who look quite Asiatic so the understanding is there. I even brought this up to another Bong friend here and even he understood it quite easily and was like “oh yeah that makes sense I kinda expected that”.

      If you don’t mind me saying, you do look very Bengali, I wouldn’t really confuse you as anyone else. I think the Mong influence is quite visible in your lips/palate region as well as your eyes. I will post my face later once I get home, got a couple of errands left to do!

      1. I think the whole West Asian thing is more online than anything, wouldn’t you agree?

        no, it’s not just online. a lot of ppl would talk about it IRL. my mom’s maternal grandfather had very distant Iranian ancestry (back to the 17th cent) and i hard about it all the time. and ppl talk about their pathan ancestry and stuff

        If you don’t mind me saying, you do look very Bengali, I wouldn’t really confuse you as anyone else. I think the Mong influence is quite visible in your lips/palate region as well as your eyes. I will post my face later once I get home, got a couple of errands left to do!

        many browns have said this. and bangladeshis have randomly figured out i’m bengali in public places, so this seems right

    2. @Razib
      re: your EAsian looks
      I think I agree with Pencilman, you can def look a bit EAsian at times, but not at others. Especially from your days at UCDavis if I’m not wrong(the pics from your time at the UCD lab are the ones I first saw you in, in Unz i recollect).
      I think it was this: https://www.unz.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/razib.jpg
      And when i say that you look EAsian, I shud also tell that you look like a very diff kind of EAsian, like an EAsian phenotype that I only associate with Bongs/Oriyas, and not the one that I associate with my ancestral people(kumaoni and KP), or the one I do with Mizos/Sikkimese. I don’t even know if what I’m saying even makes sense at all lol. To make an analogy, Shilpa Shetty and Preity Zinta both look SAsian to me, but a bit distinct kinds of SAsians, because of varying levels of admixture in each of the two i guess.

      1. yeah a lot of browns have said i’m bengali. but i definitely know when random clerks approach me and ask that it’s the real deal since they don’t know me

  51. Preity Zinta

    Is Preity another way of spelling Preethi a common name in SL

    Preity =? Preethi = meaning happy.

    The name is out of fashion now because a few decades back the Family Planning free distributed condoms were branded Preethi. So much so, a condom is called preethi in common parlance.

    1. @Sereno bhai

      Preity zinta is an anomaly in this regard, it’s generally spelled as “Preeti” or “Pruthi”(in Deccan) in India. And it means “loving” or “affectionate” in Hindi.

  52. Tamil Nadu Police Begin Investigating Terrorism Plot after Car Bomb Explosion Kills Suspected Suicide Bomber in Coimbatore ; Anong those Allegedly Involved are Persons With Earlier Links to Sri Lankan Easter Bombing Mastermind Zahran Hashim

    This is from The Hindu, article behind paywall copied to a blog.

    identity of the charred body led to the same name — Jameesha Mubin, a 29-year-old man who lived with his wife and two children some 350 metres from Sangameswarar temple. Mubin emerged as the prime suspect of the terror plot.

    Mubin’s residence, a rented house on the second floor of a building on H.M.P.R. Street. In the house, a unique smell heightened their fears — the smell of explosive chemicals. The officers unearthed over 75 kg of potassium nitrate, aluminium powder, sulphur and charcoal.

    Mubin was questioned in 2019 by the National Investigation Agency (NIA) when it was examining the activities of a group of men who were suspected to be Islamic State sympathisers.

    visual from a surveillance camera facing the ground floor of the building showed Mubin and a few others taking out heavy objects in a white sack on October 22. The accomplices, identified as Muhammad Thalha (25), Muhammad Azharudheen (23), Muhammad Riyas (27), Firoz Ismail (27), and Muhammad Nawaz Ismail (27), hailing from G.M. Nagar near Ukkadam,

    The State Police have linked Mubin to Mohammed Azharuddin, a terror suspect arrested by the NIA under the UAPA and lodged in Viyyur central prison, Thrissur, Kerala. Azharuddin and his associates were allegedly staunch followers of Zahran Hashim, the brain behind the 2019 Easter Sunday bombings in Sri Lanka. Police sources said Mubin was also Zahran’s Facebook friend.


  53. Razib,

    Do you know of any other fellas like yourself that posts a lot of stuff about Bengali genetic research and anthropology, or if not just general South Asian stuff? Any ideas on who I should follow?

  54. lol my white friends who grew up in areas with significant Bong populations can tell us apart from Indians

    True, true.
    Every time I see Bangladeshi cricket fans in a stadium, I can’t tell if it’s east Asia or Bangladesh.
    If anyone feels otherwise, then you probably just happened to see Indian nationalists in BD jerseys.

    1. After having spent 3-4 years on BP, I can safely conclude that there are no subcontinent folks in the subcontinent.
      Only Arabs/Turks, white people, black people, and east Asians.

      1. Big upvote for this comment from IsThisReal!! The urge to erase the tag Indian from all sorts of labeling discourse is the only constant.

        Rishi is not Asian but only of South Asian origin (definitely not Indian origin), Diwali is only South Asian, the Ancestral Indian is a moolnivasi from the forests. The region’s predominant languages and literatures are very late heirlooms from the Steppes.

        1. @IsThisReal @Ugra
          re: regarding the disgust towards the Indian tag in SAsia

          I feel this is overwhelmingly limited to online platforms. In real life I’m quite sure a Bong or a Jat or a Tamilian would be embarassing themselves to make a claim about their exoticity, unless ofcourse they are in similar circlejerk company. And I also feel it’s the SAsian diaspora which has almost the whole of this lot, here in SAsia I’m yet to meet anyone who cares. I have lived my life surrounded by Punajbis(Jatts, raisikhs, hindus) in Delhi and I’m yet to come across someone who holds such sentiments(tbh i sometimes tend to feel that i’m more of a punjabi than a pahadi considering I never had a coetanous pahadi friend but majorly punjabi and haryanvi jats). The same goes for Bengalis/SIndians I met during college. Diasporans do not and will never understand India/SAsia(sry Razib!).

        2. @Ugra
          fully agree. this blog has an unhealthy, neurotic, OCD related obsession with genetics.

          i used to post more frequently in the past. i have stopped now. now i mostly drop in occasionally to find out if any interesting conversation is going on, and return disappointed.

          even i have learned many of these ancestry ratios by heart now (bengalis have X% of E asian ancestry, N indians have Y% of steppe ancestry, and so on and so forth). most of these facts appear utilitarian dead ends to me.

          and what is this stupid thing about being X but passing as Y? what purpose does it serve in real life?

          may be just me.

          1. @ScorpionEater
            believe me, BP is the one of the saner pop human genetics blogs on the internet. It does draw a little of such crowd that u mention, but is anyday much much better than sites like anthrogenica and anthroworld.
            Here is one of my fav ever posts by our very own Apthk/Racelearner which shud give you an idea of how amateur BP is:

            Maybe Racelearner is the Roman-looking Rahul Gandhi himself after all, who knows?

    2. ThisIsReal,

      lol your sarcasm won’t change the facts. And it’s more about the facial features and influences.


      this blog was meant for diaspora people anyways buddy

  55. You know what, Mamata Banerjee pheno wise is interesting to me. Banerjee is definitely a “Kulin” Brahmin surname and we know they migrated from Kannauj from historical records and stories but she has quite the Asiatic influence on her face, something has to explain it tbh. I think below is what her hypothetical HarappaWorld results would look like. Something has to explain it and I think she would get high Mong at 15% and ofc regular high Bong Brahmin steppe at 9% NE Euro and middling Caucasian at 3% which is within their range and 31% Baloch which is also what they get. This is only a hypothetical but I have seen a regular Bengali Muslim result from Anthrogenica who got 9% NE Euro but also 12% Mong so it’s certainly plausible, he said that his ancestors were Bong Brahmins who converted to Islam, he was from Comilla/Brahmanbaria or something like that.

    **Hypothetical HW results for Mamata Banerjee**
    42% South Indian
    31% Baloch
    9% NE Euro
    3% Caucasian
    15% Mong (mainly SEA in her case with maybe 1-2% NE Asian)

  56. Anyone know the Rahul Ligma guy?

    Can we get him on the BP Podcast like we had @roon. You don’t often come across desis with real troll game.

    1. Bhimrao, did you forget the massive bridge collapse in Italy the other year? Or the Florida condo towers collapse. These things happen. No need to rag on India in the hour of tragedy.

      1. Principia,

        I am very sad about what has happened. Please see the video I posted. Retards are seen pulling on the cables to make the bridge sway.

        Italy bridge collapse and Florida condo towers were solely engineering/construction failures more like the bridge that collapsed in Bihar a few months ago or the famous bridge collapse in Kota a few years ago.

  57. https://www.thehindu.com/news/international/indias-imports-from-china-surge-to-record-high-in-first-nine-months-of-year/article66056892.ece

    India’s imports from China have risen 31% for the nine months ended September, propelling the trade deficit to a record high. The trade deficit in the period grew to $75.69 billion.

    India’s exports to China in the first nine months of this year were, however, down by as much as 36.4% at $13.97 billion.

    The rising trade volume this year underlines India’s continued demand for Chinese machinery and intermediate goods, such as active pharmaceutical ingredients (APIs), despite long-running efforts to reduce reliance on China.

    While the fall in Indian exports, the reliance on Chinese goods in some sectors, and the widening imbalance are concerns, Indian officials say the growing imports also reflect rising demand for intermediates, which is a positive.

    Not sure how babus can try to spin this as a good thing, but there you go. China is pursuing a mercantilist policy and India should join the West in pressuring them to ditch “supply-side” economics and raise domestic demand. Until this happens, China’s trade surpluses with the rest of the world will only increase.

    1. priincipia says
      China is pursuing a mercantilist policy and India should join the West in pressuring them to ditch “supply-side” economics and raise domestic demand

      Pressurize/Force the good old habit of diktat and aggression. Old habits die hard. Sounds like how the west forced China to buy Opium.

      Ukraine followed the West and is getting itself destroyed.
      Europe joined the US/UK to force Russia to stop supply of gas and oil. Now about to freeze

      Anyway there is always the option of tariffs, not buying. No necessity for aggression.

      Hopefully India sees cooperation is more beneficial. India and Japan continue to cooperate with Russia for Energy. EU will be buying Russian refined oil products from India

  58. mr udrahyvanya is once again upset about ash sarkar talking about brahmins, call is pure bigotry, this is the 2nd time I have seen him upset in one week. After not seeing this for years. I guess it really is true that we are conservative about things close and liberal about things far.

  59. The long delayed Airbus C-295 production in India finally moving forward. Some happy thoughts:

    1) This is a big deal. Largest airplanes to be manufactured in India ever.
    2) This production line will be around for the rest of our lives. This will be our own version of the ATR’s Toulouse factory.
    3) Leasing space from HAL in Kanpur (or even Bangalore) would have been much better. Vadodara is a populist pick.
    4) In addition to replacing HS-748, I expect C-295s to eventually replace all An-32s. I predict that the production run will be ~200 aircraft over ~25 years.
    5) Can we make a jump to assembling single aisle jets? Too many A-320 lines already, a A-220 line maybe?
    6) Privatize National Aerospace Laboratory asap like UK did with Quintiq. Chutiya bana rahe hain saale. Saras will never happen, cut losses, Do228 is fine.
    7) Having seen the fate of Mahindra aerospace (Gipps) and Mitsubishi aerospace (Spacejet), I do not think this is a great business to go alone. India has picked the right side, now just stick with the French.

    1. Privatization is not a silver bullet if we end up with just 1 player. Ffs even ussr had mig, sukhoi for fighter jets and tuploev and antonov for cargo. At the minimum we need 2 entities to foster experimentation with different ideas. In present setup, orgs are captured by one or the other group and it ends up becoming either a jobs program or pipeline to industry for that particular group.

      1. Let us learn to crawl before trying to run. India is a poor country, we neither have the skills nor the money to run parallel programs. I can almost guarantee that there would not be more than 100 good aircraft designers in the whole country (i.e. ADA+HAL combined).

        In this case privatization is creating competition too, Tata-Airbus will take on HAL monopoly. HAL wasted 10+ years on IL-276, NAL has been fooling us with Saras for ~15-20 years now. How long can we waste on ‘mungeri-laal ke sapne’? Also, where is the money?

        USSR had massive ego issues, now everything MiG-Tupolev-Sukhoi-Irkut-Ilyushin-Yakolev-Beriev-Myasishchev-Voronezh-Gromov is under UAC.

        In C-295’s case tender was invited multiple times, no other company came forward. I am sure Tata will lose money on this order. These things are very complex. If we really stretch our imagination then there were three options: Leonardo C-27J (too expensive), Antonov (expensive, no one buys it anymore), and Embraer (too large). Joining hands with Airbus is obviously the better choice. The benefit of selecting Airbus are obvious, get into their supplier eco-system, slowly climb the OEM ladder like Japan did with Boeing. Maybe get to manufacture major sub-assemblies.

        1. I am not against tata doing c295. But if we are going to invest in such things at all then we could learn a lesson or 2 in how to manage these things. Big tech companies invest in multiple parallel projects both internal and in startups. GOI is similar to big companies rather than scrappy start up. The multiple parallel efforts is also common in US/west. Infact the consolidation of aerospace companies in both west and ussr correlates with bloated budgets (f-35) and cost overruns.

          1. Bhai this is peanuts:
            Development costs
            LCA Programme – ₹9,063.96 crore (US$1.1 billion) (up to March 2020)
            Kaveri engine programme – ₹2,032 crore (US$250 million)

            Can’t make big things with such budgets.

            We are a gareeb-phateechar country with millions of civil-military-psu sarkaari daamads who demand pay commissions and free money. There is no money in India for these things.

  60. if imran, the ever populist makes the army to loosen its grip on the levers of power, then once imran weakens, the power shall be neither with the army nor the ‘masses’. this will be a ‘gorbochev’ movement for pakistan and eventual civil war?

    1. army will cut a deal with him. it will work out fine. Bajwa legit saved Pak. People will remember him

    2. What civil war? Where are the faultlines? I keep hearing this prediction from Indians on twitter, but seems like more a fantasy than anything else.

      All major groups in Pakistan directly and substantially benefit from the state, except for maybe Baluchistan and Baluchistan is scarcely populated and majority Pashtun. There are more ethnic Baloch in Sindh and Punjab than there are in Baluchistan. Pakistan is not disintegrating now. It’s too late. The time for that was 50 years ago.

      1. Pak is quite stable. Main issue is rent seeking feudal lords and army intersection. India also has a lot of feudal rent seekers. Many were part of recent protests.

      2. Civil war is the favorite pastime of dissidents/liberals of either countries. The folks from the other side then latch unto it and exaggerate stuff.

        Its like how folks predicted a huge revolt in Kashmir, once article 370 was removed.

  61. “Indian Americans hold broadly favorable views of Modi. Nearly half of all Indian Americans approve of Modi’s performance as prime minister. This support is greatest among Republicans, Hindus, people in the engineering profession, those not born in the United States, and those who hail from North and West India.”



  62. Firecracker ban not having much impact on Delhi air pollution levels. Which is line with what I anticipated.

    1. We all know it is stubble burning. The same rent seekers who choked the capital’s roads are doing so to the lungs of its people. Farming needs serious reform and modernization. Pressures will keep building.

  63. Imran khan shot in the leg by an “unknown assailant”. It’s likely the army and ISI will look the other way and there wont be any special security measures for him after this incident. His life will continue to be in danger. I believe he’s going to suffer the same fate as Benazir Bhutto.

    1. This could be a warning shot (literally) for him to tone down.

      I am not sure on the Benazir front. The army might be wary that Imran is too powerful to be killed. Its not the 70s. Nor was Benazir as popular when she died. Plus Imran does have support of rank and file of the army.

      All these things insulates him. He knows it, that’s why he takes the leeway he does, while talking about the army.

      1. No one is killing him. This is master plan by Bajwa. Legit the dude is a genius of realpolitik. He got US money again. He will turn Imran into a bigger hero but one that does army bidding well. Once Imran wins next year, China will move in again more aggressively for investment. The train car deal was recently done.

      2. It’s not a warning shot, they failed. 14 people were injured, 1 dead. It was automatic rifle shots, possibly multiple shooters as decoy. IK’s sideman took a bullet on the cheek and survived, several others on the container got hit. One guy in the crowd tackled one of the shooters and made him miss, another guy died trying to stop him running away.

        Generals are just that stupid. They have been scoring own goals for quite sometime now, last one for the press conference from DG ISI himself.. and now this. Don’t think this government survives for much longer now and neither will the army’s reputation.

        1. You underestimate Pak army. If they wanted him dead, he would be dead. They are elite at political assassinations.

          1. You overestimate ISI. lol

            They tried to kill Benazir, failed at first attempt, succeeded at the second one.

          2. WTF! Shooting a leader, that too of Imran’s stature and popularity… Katai chutiye hain Pakistani… even our Biharis are above this…

            He is doing more to damage Pak army than India ever could have. May he live long enough to sell out to India.

          3. @Bhimrao

            Public loves army. They just don’t like a few of the top generals. They change those and it will be the same thing.

  64. Agree with those saying that this doesn’t look like a “warning shot” so much as incompetence. Never underestimate human stupidity.

    It’s Bajwa simply trying to remove a competitor. What’s interesting to me is that Khan’s base understands all this. They are now protesting the local corps commander’s house.


    This is the worst possible outcome for the army. If you’re going to kill a rival, at least make it happen. Instead they’ve just turned him into a living martyr. But for how long?

  65. Turns out US wants meritocracy in order to compete with china.
    As to pakistan, until the people really want democracy, the shit show shall continue. Many other pak leaders died and still it did not lead to democracy. Will this time be different, considering their economic situation is worse and Army generally does not have competence in areas of economic flourishing. If people are really frustrated, they can, As to the “threat” of India. Since pak acquired nukes, that realistically ended. But the people of pak were stupid enough to let this continue and since army is from the time of british. They are still playing divide and rule quite well. It seems Indians/ bengalis atleast understood some of those lessons well enough to keep army in check. Pak prioritised antagonism with India over own flourishing. This is the price.

    1. You overestimate the competence of elites if you think this was some grand move to counter China.

      Also, the super elites still made it. Olympian gold medalists were always safe. It was more of the just brilliant but not world class kids that suffered with these racist policies.

      What is going on is that a conservative court is instituting conservative policies. The irony is that not being racist with college admissions is now a conservative rather than progressive view point.

        1. Liberals are more globalist in terms of spreading values. Conservatives got a few bloody noses with “spreading democracy.” Liberals want to spread wokeism.

          Putin is a tradionalist and seen as allying with the nationalists of the world, including members of the American Right. He is an enemy of Wokeism. This is an oversimplification but part of it.

          Both parties are economically globalist and favor the rich. But only one has recently learned the stupidty of trying to force export values.

      1. @warlock
        People have a wrong view on how to think about these issues. Here is my heuristic. Find signal among noise. What is signal, what is noise?. There are multiple agents, with own agency. In finding signal, what basically checks for simple templates for what it takes for people to further their own hegemony, power etc. And what seemingly goes against their interests. Have this simple checklist and then go about asking why do people behave the way they do.
        Here is one example. How does one explain many ” intellectuals being Anti-India. Your argument, ” you overestimate competence of elites ” is so wrong because I did not use elites as a word anywhere. Second is the issue that a lot of people seemingly have a difficult time understanding. They can understand cause and effect in a simple cases, but once you mix a bit of noise, they refuse to see motivations, cause, effect and like to pretend its innocuous or incidental. I said this to gaurav, it took him time to get here, i hope he appreciates my reasoning then.
        If you shoot randomly most of the time but shoot in one direction towards one person every 5th time, is it an act of intentional murder or is it an accident?. There is now even a term for this, stochastic terrorism. Jihadists do it all the time. At any given time , society is being pulled in different directions by different groups, individuals. Sometimes there are convergence of interests, sometimes conflicts of interest.
        The challenge is china, if you saw this, you will understand the many moves under biden administration. You will see noahsmith making argument that affirmative action as it is needs to go. Fact is, some liberals are making their views on this openly. What made them come out on this issue. If usa had no challenger, meritocracy could easily have been sacrificed for much longer term. No one would care as much. Ofcouse, ideologically infested people can still try to ensure things continue as it did. But there are other interests at work that wants to see things turn.

    1. The most popular gujju political leader at present is an OBC.

      Wear Bengal has never had a non-bhadralok CM in its history. The current CM is a Bhadralok.

      This lady is also a bhadralok. So seems blind to her privilege.

      1. Radical leftism infected the minds of much of the Bengali elite a long time ago. Sad state of affairs

  66. After Musk’s takeover of twitter, i see some folks threatening to re-activate their Mastaram, (oops) i meant Mastodon accounts

    1. Intellectuals in pretty much every country are anti-their own country. What matters is how much power and influence the intellectuals have in the respective countries.

  67. Interesting read for those who like world history.

    presents a stunning parallel between the Crusades and the current “rules-based international order” imposed by the US.

    details how the Papacy in Rome managed to lock up unipolar control over secular realms (rings a bell?) when the game was all about Papal precedence over kings, above all the German Holy Roman Emperors (Empire was not exactly Holy, nor German (perhaps a little Roman))

    A clause in the Papal Dictates provided the Pope with the authority to excommunicate whomever was “not at peace with the Roman Church.” Hudson sharply notes how US sanctions are the modern equivalent of excommunication.

    Arguably there are Top Two dates in the whole process.

    The first one would be the Third Ecumenical Council of 435: this is when only Rome (italics mine) was attributed universal authority (italics mine). Alexandria and Antioch, for instance, were limited to regional authority within the Roman Empire.

    The other top date is 1054 – when Rome and Constantinople split for good. That is, the Roman Catholic Church split from Orthodoxy, which leads us to Russia, and Moscow as The Third Rome – and the centuries-old animosity of “the West” against Russia.

    Vinod Moonesinghe Uditha Wijesena Tom Wilson Dasun Abeysekera Sakuntala Seneviratne Sumi de Silva


    Germany’s position in America’s New World Order
    by Michael Hudson


    1. I understand Mr. Guha has a strong point of view, but that was a really badly written essay. He did not even address his subject (Modi and Indian democracy) for more than half the essay. And then when he does come to the topic at hand, he doesnt really develop and defend a proper thesis. We are just expected to believe that the media, population and judiciary have been entranced by Modi, as if he is some glamorous movie star.

  68. Supreme court allows 10% ews quota, breaching 50% quota. This is horrible, poverty of any community is by itself not deserving of such blatant reservation benefits. Poverty is a collective problem and needs to be solved for whole society by creating jobs, by enhancing opportunities. These kinds of actions will lead to further problems, now that 50% quota has been breached, it can go even further. Also, it will extend into private sector.

    1. India is a joke, not a country to be taken seriously. 8LPA to define poorest of the poor in a country where average income is 2 LPA, LoL!

      There were two judges who wanted to give it to already reserved folks!!! Hahahaha

      This country sucks. Amreeka chalo.

      1. too late for me. Also, born in this country , will die in this country type of a guy. Too much shit, needs to be cleaned up. If one has only words to give,one must do so.

    2. This is horrible, poverty of any community is by itself not deserving of such blatant reservation benefits
      You still surprised by this? Marxism isn’t about lifting people up, its about pushing others down for their original sin. They will burn your house down, kill your family and call it a symbolic victory for Avarnas because leftists are sociopaths.

    1. Brampton isn’t a powder keg; more a source of endless entertainment.
      These Khalistani referendums are just a manifestation of Sikh impotence.

      1. The lack of taking this shit seriously enough is what allowed “Farmers” protest to get out of hand. Do not underestimate the shear degree of brainwashed hatred, elite organization, and willingness to spend money and lives to malign a united India for a supremacist theocratic tribal project.

        Hindus in Canada are standing up for themselves slowly. Not everyone is like BAPs with disprportionately weak street power. And even BAPs hopefully learns to stand up to supremacist bullying.

        I feel for Sikhs though. They are maligned by Khalistanis like Muslims are by radical islamists and their radical islamoapologist enablers. Also, the youth are brainwashed more and more by the woke Leftist machinery. The unholy allicances continues to grow stronger. At least Dearborne was somewhat of a break with people standing up to too radical of a woke school agenda.

        Jagmeet Singh and his gang are a massive threat. Do not underestimate their hate.

    2. I predict that there will be at least one major riot between Sikhs and Hindus in the Greater Toronto Area before 2026.

Comments are closed.

Brown Pundits