Hinduism will die, and Hinduism will live

Cham Hindus

Sometimes in these comments or on social media, I see Hindus bemoan the passivity and weakness of their religion in the face of faiths with greater vigor and asabiyyah. This is such a common occurrence that I don’t often comment on it. But I have to say ironically that these sorts of comments exhibit a narrowness of perception, and a broader cultural involution, that typifies so many Hindus and is why they are often caught flatfooted against the partisans of other religions, usually Christianity and Islam.

First, there are 1.2 billion Hindus in the world. There is no near-term future where Hinduism will go extinct. And this number of Hindus is the very source of the religion’s likely rebirth: evolution operates upon heritable variation to drive adaptation and change. In a cultural sense, Hinduism has a great deal of variation, whether it be obscure ethnicities like the Cham Hindus of Vietnam, or the expansion of ISKCON around the world.

ISKCON itself is interesting because its reactions illustrate the weakness and likely end of some forms of Hinduism in the Diaspora, and likely ultimately in India itself. Though from what I can tell ISKCON does exhibit a level of unpalatable cultishness, some of its orthodox Indian Hindu critics exhibit a literal reactionary mindset that illustrates why many forms of this religion are not long for this world. After the hammer blow of Islam in the Indian subcontinent around 1200 AD Indian religious traditions, what we call Hinduism, nevertheless preserved and survived. This very fact illustrates a robustness that was lacking in Near Eastern Christianity and Zoroastrianism. But that survival likely depended upon particular Indian institutions, like jati-varna, that were decentralized and flexible in a manner that allowed Hinduism not to be decapitated in the same manner that Persian Christianity and Zoroastrianism were in the centuries after the Islamic conquest.

The centuries of dhimmitude transformed Hinduism into a far more Indian religion than it was in 500 AD. This may sound strange, but the genetic and cultural evidence are clear that a massive cultural extension of Hindu Indian civilization existed in Southeast Asia during this period. If Islam had not interposed itself, and India itself become part of the Dar-ul-Islam during the medieval period, it is quite plausible that a Hindu-Buddhism dharmic condominium may have emerged from the Indus to the Gulf of Tonkin over the last few thousand years.

But that is not what happened. At the same time as the Turco-Muslims invaded India maritime Southeast Asia began to realign itself with the Islamic international, a trade network that was beginning to dominate the Indian ocean. After 1500 most of the Hindu kingdoms collapsed and turned to Islam (with Bali and Champa being the exceptions). The geographic purview of the religions that ultimately drew from the Vedic traditions became constrained, and within India cultural adaptations emerged that allowed the religion to resist the stress tests of Islam.

The centuries after the fall of the Mughals the rise of the British, and now the rise to political domination by Hindutva, are creating new cultural configurations. Many Hindus retain the cultural mindset of the past, denying that Hinduism proselytizes when the very faces of the Balinese illustrate that this was not so in the past. These traditionalists assert jati-varna in a time when even within India inter-caste marriage is eroding the power of this communalism gradually but inevitably. They also deny that non-Indians can ever be genuinely authentically Hindu, even when those non-Indians oftentimes show a vigor of belief and practice that put Indians to the same.

Those who value purity above all else will slowly fade and diminish as they look back to the past. A new future comes, and we don’t know what it will be, but cultures are resilient.

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Ugra
Ugra
1 year ago

On this topic, I read an interesting comment on Twitter by a Hindu blackpiller.

There have been no great wins and no great losses in the last 50 years for the Hindu. A state of dull stagnancy pervades. There is no great animation. Neither there is great dejection. Which usually have the power to summon heroes from the ranks of society. Therefore the Hindu chases imagined grievances and victories at home and abroad.

H.M. Brough
H.M. Brough
1 year ago
Reply to  Ugra

Wat…you remember the Ram Temple right?

Saurav
Saurav
1 year ago
Reply to  H.M. Brough

Ram temple was opposed by parties which constitute a majority of Indian Hindu population.

Ugra
Ugra
1 year ago
Reply to  H.M. Brough

Ram Temple is one of approximately 2000 temples (Ram Swarup Goel).

What is more problematic is that technological progress has not (yet) been fully co-opted into the mainstream Hindu’s parametrical view of a “win”. This was and remains a Savarkarite goal for Hindu society.

For example, Train 18, even after 5 years of bureaucratic impasse and evolution – is a major achievement for Hindu society. Hardly any Arab society has achieved EMU trainsets. Nor have the subcontinental Muslims.

The epistemic transformation of the Hindu observer is an honorable goal in itself.

phyecho1
phyecho1
1 year ago

pretty close to how i see it too, though I did not consider indonesia.

Deep Saran Bhatnagar
Deep Saran Bhatnagar
1 year ago

// Hinduism will die, and Hinduism will live // – It already is the case.

Sorry to say but Indic & indigenous faiths have ‘fuzzy cores’ & thus Abrahamic faiths easily digest them while point fingers at non-abrahamic believers. Which is why politics as it emerged in modern time forced Hindus to ‘harden the core’ for political purposes. Africa failed to do so & thus got digested.

If you think that people who are questioning current transformations due to purity alone {except maybe Brahmans} then you are mistaken since each region & it’s inhabitants developed regional rituals / beliefs which are unique spatially so deserve att. & preservation.

E.g. – Seed banks, regional arts etc.

But i agree that – “A new future comes and we don’t know what it will be, but cultures are resilient.”

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
1 year ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

@Razib

But they digested over 30% of it., 40%-50% if you are concentrating on Northern India where they ruled. Regardless of the actual historical percentage, this is a big chunk. However it seems true that Hinduism is more resilient than Zoroastrianism, Buddhism or other minor religions, and definitely more than any unorganized religion – for the reasons you mentioned. But while we compare how well Zoroastrianism fared with Hinduism, wouldnt you say that the Sassanid empire was more centralized and therefore its capitulation also led to the capitulation of the Zoroastrian faith?

Prats
Prats
1 year ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

There seems to be rapid secularization taking place in the Arab world. Do you think something similar will happen in Pakistan as well once the economy gets back on track?

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
1 year ago
Reply to  Prats

No I think Pakistan’s identity is linked to Islam even if that is quite superficial. The entire state structure is inherited from the Brits so unislamic. Local cultural values dominate in rural social setup while Islamic ones are usually secondary or co-opted. Which is why rising middle class and urbanization will actually lead to greater Islamization because urban populations tend to look down on rural folk culture. Some will adopt westernization while many accept islamization. But both will retain Islamic identity. There is no top down approach to change this that I see so for at least the next two decades I dont think Pakistan will become secular. This will not lead to bad relations with India, because due to Urdu language becoming widespread, India still has familiarty and therefore goodwill.

I also don’t think secularization in Arab world is deep enough or permenant, Arab world usually swings between secular and Islamic currents. The Arab secular nationalist movements of the 20th century were overturned by islamists. The GCC countries seemed to have avoided to secular movements back then but they are going through that phase right now. But don’t think this will be permanent, it will always fluctuate.

sameer
sameer
1 year ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

@quereshi Decentralization is one reason but I think an additional factor why Hinduism survived is because it has a strong and popular Mythological base like Ramayan, Mahabharat etc. Myths and epics give people something more concrete to hold on to, give them some hope as opposed to more atheistic faiths like Buddhism. I’m not sure if Zoroastrianism has all that.

Also, IMHO Iran(Persia) never really had a chance to resist the Arabs as it is very close to the caliphate(geographically) and with Sassanid empire already weakened severely due to their wars with the byzantine empire.

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
1 year ago
Reply to  sameer

Sameer… No I think even European pagan religions including Greek and Roman religions had great mythology ( that persists to this day) but the religions themselves got consumed by Christianity. It’s not mythology but the jati-varna caste system, the lack of exogamy in Hinduism that played a part. Also, India got Turks, not Arabs or Persians. The Turks seemed to overall prefer plunder over conversion, military innovation as opposed to scientific innovation.

Deep Saran Bhatnagar
Deep Saran Bhatnagar
1 year ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

It is easy to overlook the issue because it does not fit modern frameworks esp. if you have not experienced the transition.

Here are 2 anecdotal examples for consideration –
All from within last 100 yrs {even less if one only considers period after region’s indipendence}

1. Name one region from West or Islamic world where a part of a region / community has converted to non-Abrahamic faiths withlin last century ?

Nagaland, India.

2. Indigenous faiths as a whole {in India atleast} are moving away from {Indic framework} Hinduism especially & getting more & more inflicted by Abrahamic religions e.g. rise of Churches {even with Abrahamic faiths chequered history with indigenous people} due to current system’s incentives.

How so many distinct beliefs & practices survived within Indic traditions unlike Abrahamic counterparts {distinctions survived but in heavily diluted forms with little to trace back to original sources} ?

Scorpion Eater
Scorpion Eater
1 year ago

“…it is quite plausible that a Hindu-Buddhism dharmic condominium may have emerged from the Indus to the Gulf of Tonkin over the last few thousand years.”

wonder why you keep ignoring lands west of indus. bamian buddhas were erected full 500 miles west of indus, and buddhist culture spread well into bactria and sogdiana. this is not even counting shahi dynasty of kabul who were authentically hindu.

(this is not a hindu nationalist irredentist rant. people west of indus and east of zoroastrian dominated lands of central iran must have followed *some* religion.)

Scorpion Eater
Scorpion Eater
1 year ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

so what is your point? that had islam not made a clean sweep of it, afg would have developed a very non-indic zen like buddhism? doesnt sound very plausible to me.

afg has always been culturally closer to india than myanmar or thailand. isn’t the mainstream academic view is that sanskrit and associated vedic culture spread *from* afg to india, and not the other way round? sanskrit grammarian panini lived somewhere west of indus, and he presumably fixed the rules of sanskrit grammar based on the language spoken around him. there are references in indian texts of academics going to northern regions to learn a purer form of sanskrit.

genetics argument doesnt matter. we are talking about culture here. but even genetically it is a safe bet to assume that a substantial indian-like people lived in these lands. pashtuns are migrants to eastern afg. yusufzais colonized swat valley as late as 1400s. pashtuns were actively colonizing eastern afg at the time of babur. before them who lived here? a common sense view is that they must be people akin to the nearest indian polulations like kashmiris, punjabis, hindkowans etc.

phyecho1
phyecho1
1 year ago

Has to do with how history is taught and all our knowledge east of bengal is self taught, and not much. So, we forget that. I keep forgetting Indonesia when thinking about past. Our view is myopic as that is what was taught to us. And continues to be relevant in our day to day affairs. So, it gets reinforced.

Scorpion Eater
Scorpion Eater
1 year ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

“we are the only nonabrahamic culture to survive”

akchually.. the full argument is that we are the only non-abrahamic culture to survive 5 centuries of abrahamic rule.

we will never know what would have been the fate of chinese culture under 5 centuries of dar-ul-islam, but my guess is that they would be laughing off confucius as the idiot from zamana-e-jahiliyat.

sbarrkum
sbarrkum
1 year ago
Reply to  Scorpion Eater

akchually.. the full argument is that we are the only non-abrahamic culture to survive 5 centuries of abrahamic rule.
Sri Lanka was under European rule for 500 years, starting with the Portuguese in 1505.
Buddhism and pre Hindu practices still survive and is the majority cultural beliefs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_Ceylon

Ugra
Ugra
1 year ago

*they just forget all about mainland southeast Asia, china and japan, which is kind of weird given the Buddhist character of a lot of these societies. *

It is not so erroneous perhaps.

SE Asia, China and Japan might not have been Abrahamized but they have been thoroughly Indianized. And it hardly needs pointing out that only India remains Indo-European in ideal and aesthete.

In sum, what that comment really points out is the continued flourishing of the IE praxis via the agency of India.

Ugra
Ugra
1 year ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

The Indic influence on China exceeds any Abrahamic influence many times over. Hardly in doubt! And the Indic-Sinic interaction sphere is a one-way street.

Sas
Sas
1 year ago

It’s not the jati system that explains the survival of Hinduism, it’s the strength of the psyche of the people. We may be many things, but the Dharmic culture is strong in it’s philosophy. We never needed any philosophies from the Middle East to make sense of our life.

Otherwise the people would have been easily overpowered and converted. While there were some forced conversions, the Muslim rulers were clearly not hell bent on converting everyone.

You know, Zoroastrians and Christians will have had local priests and communities, so it wouldn’t have been so easy to centrally ‘decapitate’ the faith as you seem to describe.

Tribal decentralisation is not the source of Hinduism’s resilience.

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
1 year ago
Reply to  Sas

Caste system was weak in the east and the west which explains why east and west Hindustan converted to Islam. Even in the Hindu heartland, Muslim % is higher in urban setting probably because caste is relatively weaker and inter-caste marriages are relatively more common amongst urbanized population.

Westernization that took place during the Raj, or the one that is still taking place is doing so in a similar fashion today.

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
1 year ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

Could also be that Pakistan (east of Indus) was under direct Islamic rule for much longer than 500 years. Sindh/South Punjab since 712 CE, North/West Punjab since 1021 CE.
Sufi masters that proselytized Islam in India almost always had patronage from the Sultan directly or indirectly so time under direct Muslim rule also matters.

Sumit
Sumit
1 year ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

Genetically the population substructure in Pakistan is still pretty high.

thewarlock
thewarlock
1 year ago
Reply to  Sumit

Pakistan still has caste. Cousin marriages help preserve it.

Sas
Sas
1 year ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

“most people in most places don’t know jack shit about philosophy. most people in most places were illiterate too.”

You don’t need to be educated or literate to have a spiritual sensibility. People have their own culture, they tend to resist cultural imposition…

Sas
Sas
1 year ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

wow, what a completely rude comment out of the blue – it sounds like you’ve got serious issues…

HJ
HJ
1 year ago

Is conversion affected by absolute population? If so, then the sheer population of India would have prevented Islamization. It’s estimated that India had a population of 75 million around 1000 AD. Persia on the other hand only had about 10 million. Easier to convert 10 million than 75 million.

Sas
Sas
1 year ago

“Caste system was weak in the east and the west which explains why east and west Hindustan converted to Islam.”

Post hoc ergo propter hoc. The west (Punjab, Balochistan etc) was a lot closer to the Persian empire so much more influence there… as for the East I don’t know much about that TBH..

girmit
girmit
1 year ago

A stray conjecture here about what inhibited conversion to Islam over the 5+ centuries of political patronage. Can we consider language? Had the Quran been translated to sanskrit, the apabrahmsas , and major dravidian languages, it would have nativized, penetrated much deeper, and been evaluated based on its principles more than its cultural valence. I’m skeptical of the view that hindus were so intrinsically pluralistic is their thought that they had complete immunity to an absolutist creed. Sure, some of that was in play, but alternatively it may have been the resistance to erasure of identity. Not sure if others agree, but to the hindu chauvinist mind (not the victimized, revanchist hindu), an indian muslim is hollowed out culturally, with no spiritual autonomy or authority in the broader faith community. By studiously cultivating distinction from all native traditions, they’ve traded whatever they ever were for something they can never be. I could sit with the most chauvinist hindu elder folk and praise islam and compare some of its strengths favorably to our own. The ideas are not the problem. If I were to convert or marry a muslim, it would be fair to wager that thousands of years of heritage are soon at risk of termination. To indic muslims, their hindu ancestors are phantoms. I think this informs the psyche of resistance.

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
1 year ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

This is not true, Salman Farsi (A persian companion of prophet Muhammad) translated some chapters of Quran into Farsi, so basically there was no taboo on translations in early Islam. Tafsir e Tabari is a surviving Farsi translation and exegesis of the Quran from the 10th century.. I’m sure there were other translations during 700-1000CE, especially those of the Mutazalite, that didn’t survive the Mongol invasions.

I have no idea why the Quran was not translated into Sanskrit, or perhaps it actually was and we don’t know about it yet. Dara Shikoh translated Upanishads into Farsi. To me it seems like Sanskrit was a guarded language, and as Al Biruni mentions – Brahmns who were gatekeepers of Sanskrit were usually uninterested in outside religions.

Anonymous Poster
Anonymous Poster
1 year ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

Brahmins posting Ws amongst a sea of Ls.

SK
SK
1 year ago

What does this phrase mean?

Sumit
Sumit
1 year ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

Sanskrit translation may as well have been Arabic for the masses.

Brahmins who are familiar with Sanskrit are also more likely to be familiar with Hindu philosophy and epistemological reasoning.

And frankly Islam is far less philosophically sophisticated than Dharmic religions which the Brahmins would be familiar with.

( I think this is because a lot of intellectual energy of Muslim scholars was spent on minute legalistic interpretations, rather than bigger picture stuff. )

In any event the important thing would have been to translate the Quran into local vernacular and provide the masses with a simple, egalitarian faith. And then slowly coalesce that into a hardened identity.

This did sort of happen with Sufi saints, who championed popular Islam in the subcontinent. Ironically many modern Muslims hate practices like offering chadars at Dargahs of Sufi saints, as they consider it a form a Shirk / idolatry.

But many of these modern Muslims descendants of Hindus whose first introduction to Islam would have been these more familiar syncretic practices championed by a saintly person.

Half asleep
Half asleep
1 year ago

If Bangladesh does not have caste structures then it’s an interesting case. Although Hinduism in Bangladesh rapidly declined during the British rule, it was doing quite well till 1800. Even in 1871 close to 40 percent of the BD population were officially Hindu, and at that time most people believed that the official figure was too low to be true. The skepticism was completely justified because during the 1871 census anyone following a mixed religion was classified as a Muslim. In any case it’s almost certain that in 1764, when the Islamic rule in BD ended after 500 + years, BD was still a Hindu majority region. So the resilience of Hinduism can not be entirely attributed to caste structures.

king
king
1 year ago

Global religions every year growth;
Hindus grow at 10 million,in 10 yrs its 100 million hindus(1 Billion in 2010 to 1.4bn in 2050)
Muslims grow at 30 million,in 10yrs its 300 million muslims(1.6bn in 2010 to 2.8bn in 2050)
Chrisitians grow at 18 million,in 10yrs its 180 million christians..(2.1bn in 2010 to 2.8bn in 2050)
So no religion be it hindu or christian or muslim will go extinct even in 22nd century..So stop crying..

Brown Pundits