Down with eggs?

I don’t have a big personal issue with vegetarians, though I really enjoy ribeye and you’ll take shrimp from my dead hands. My daughter has been a vegetarian since she was five due to ethical concerns about animal cruelty.

But every now and then I hear that BJP-aligned governments or officials are removing eggs from school meal programs due to cultural sensitivities. I get that, but is there a good argument from this from a utilitarian/nutritional angle? Children at critical ages need protein and fat, and perhaps I’m wrong, but India still seems to have a lot of nutritional issues in a lot of is population. These kids are the future, and honestly, this seems like the cultural forces are shooting society in the face.

If Marin county or the Irvine School District unveiled this I wouldn’t care. With enough money and care you can design a vegan diet with balance and supplementation to be healthy. But this requires care and execution, and I see many American with lots of money who don’t pull it off well judging by their physique and fatigue.

What’s the deal? It’s true that the Chinese eat everything, but sometimes I wonder if the Indians eat nothing.

(this matters to all of us because a massive number of working age people in the next few decade are going to be Indian, and we need them to be as healthy as possible)

78 thoughts on “Down with eggs?”

  1. Eggs in America are largely unfertilized. They aren’t even life yet. I wonder if that’s the case in India.

    Regardless, I agree here. And this coming from a life long vegetarian from a Jain family. Let people eat what they want to eat.

    People need protein. Unless Indians are willing to serve a shit ton of milk and heavy lentils to the kids, they won’t have enough protein. Eggs can supplement that well, if done properly.

    Also, I saw on Twitter about the contradiction between abortion and this type of militant vegetarianism.

    A lot of this is influenced by some members of wealthy Jain Society. Jains have better gender ratios. So they likely practice selective sex based abortion less. Most rich jains are pretty intensely anti-abortion. Dowry isn’t an issue. They can afford it.

    In the secular height survey study, Jains and Sikhs were the tallest religious groups, both at 5’7.

    So yes, this is a generally more well off group of people applying its cultural and moral purity standards to others. I am from this group, and I think it’s wrong.

    If the majority of the school childrens’ parents are ok with eggs, then serve eggs. Same for other foods.

    Gender Ratios of Jains and Hindus, 2011
    Total Hindus Jains
    INDIA 943 939 954
    Maharashtra 929 928 964
    Rajasthan 928 926 958
    Gujarat 919 916 966
    Madhya P 931 929 942
    Chhattisgarh 991 990 947
    Karnataka 973 972 952
    Punjab 895 879 935
    Haryana 879 876 895
    Delhi 868 865 942
    Uttar P 912 907 937
    Tamilnadu 996 992 957
    West Bengal 950 948 958

    1. You missed Kerala Sex Ratio.
      In Kerala is 1084 i.e. for each 1000 male.
      Roughly comparable to Sri Lanka

      In Sri Lanka 91.96 males per 100 females
      That 1087 per 1000 males

      Many in SL prefer their first born to be female.
      I guess the dowry now being almost non existent (among the Sinhalese) helps

      Eggs in America are largely unfertilized. They aren’t even life yet. I wonder if that’s the case in India.
      Factory farm eggs are not fertilized*. Thats the majority source of eggs in SL.
      Its free range eggs from homesteads that can be fertilized.

      *You would need a whole lot of roosters to fertilize eggs in a large chicken coop. Many roosters mean, the will fight and kill each other

  2. The data shows that people need 1.6g/kg body weight of protein, if they are living an active lifestyle to maximize muscle growth. No real returns after that point. For the elderly, it is a bit higher, just like slightly higher BMI in the elderly portends a mortality benefit.

    School age kids in poor areas are probably between 25-75kg (from saw K-12, obesity rate low in India, people aren’t that tall in poor schools). Probably somewhere between 50-150g of protein a day, so let’s average 100g a day. Maybe make schools responsible for 2 of the meals. So 60-65g protein. This 1.6g/kg is by for people doing hypertrophy training. Most kids aren’t doing heavy weight training. So numbers I am about to give will likely be an overestimate, but I am erring on that side on purpose.

    That’s actually not too bad to hit at all on a vegetarian diet. It is certainly easier with good amount of milk in the equation and even easier with eggs. Tofu is likely too expensive. Legumes can be good but need to be eaten at a very high volume. Many of these schools with serve a very thin dal with hardly any volume of them.

    One way places like Haryana and Punjab do this well is having the kids drink a crap ton of milk. More lactose intolerance in South so eggs will be a thing. Granted, most of the South just eats more meat in general.

    Eggs seem like a good compromise ground, if anything. Meat can be quite expensive in India. Even meat heavy parts of S Asia don’t have much meat consumption, by world standards, especially not among the poor.

  3. re: milk, 1/3rd of the calories in raw milk are lactose sugar. ppl can still access fat and protein. also, it seems likely that lots of ppl without genetic lactose tolerance may have some microbiomic lactose tolerance because their bacteria are breaking it down without producing neg side effects

    1. Yeah. Makes sense with milk. 23&me told me that I have a good chance of lactose intolerance.

      But I can drink a crap ton of milk without issues. Whey protein, greek yogurt, etc historically give me no issues. Once, I tried drinking a half gallon at once. Yes, that was enough to give issues. But it took a lot.

      1. Dahi is glorious, especially dehydrated Greek variety. I can just sit and eat a whole tub of plain Chobani. Good stuff

        1. only greek yogurt has protein, plain yogurt does not have enough, one needs to eat a lot. Also, the amino acid profile needs to be checked. Best solution is nutrition packs, complete amino acids can be fulfilled.

          1. Milk and yogurt are decently complete animal proteins. Amino acid profiles are pretty good. Among as one eats a variety of lentils, legumes, and milk products- lacto vegetarian works fine.

            Greek yogurt is just more dehydrated or concentrated yogurt. But yeah I eat a lot of it. A tub as like 100g protein.

  4. As you guys all know, I’m a practicing Hindu and fairly right-of-center. I practice ritual vegetarianism in accordance with Hindu orthopraxy (IOW: vegan on Tuesdays).

    But if something is maladaptive, then you have to call it out. Vegetarianism as it exists is something that doesn’t work for India. It COULD work if you have a nutrition-conscious population aided by smart technocrats.

    But right now, we don’t have that. Matters of health, nutrition, and their effects on human capital are unknown unknowns as far as Indians are concerned.

    As India westernize further, we need to break down norms of vegetarianism while strengthening norms against beef-eating. This will help India on a number of metrics, while strengthening Hindu identity and assuaging traditionalists.

  5. I talked on this on open forums month ago i believe or more.
    low vit b12, iron deficiency in both kids and adults, leading to cognitive problems. In fact, creatine if administered for vegetarians, it seems to suggest that it boosts the iq of vegetarians by almost one standard deviation. So, my solution was, give everyone nutrition packs, both kids and adults, govt is trying to fortify rice.
    I have been talking of proteins, how it could perhaps boost iq as well.,may%20be%20vitamin%20B12%20sufficient.

  6. my comment is missing. I have talked of this a month of so before, and earlier as well. Creatine and iq boost for vegetarians , what do you have to say razib, in India’s case as a whole. Also to those medically knowledgeable, will solving iron deficiency also solve vit b12 deficiency as well?

    1. Creatine is the one supplement I take. Its cognitive benefits are overstated. It helps a little bit with strength. Actually, I also take Vit D.

      Iron and B12 are separate nutrients. I am just confused why people are deficient. But they are. I think people either have no food and no money or money and make awful food choices.

      My B12 has never been low. My Hgb has been 15-16 consistently. Not even young women in my family are anemic, barring a few with Beta Thal trait.

      I think the rich people vegetarian diet of Kachori, Samosa, Jalebi, Pani Puri, Bael, Pow Baji, Dosa, chili paneer, and oily “Hakka” noodles is the problem.
      People need to eat real nutritious food.

      A meta analysis^

      “Taken together, creatine supplementation has the ability to increase performance in vegetarians as well as omnivores; however, the research is not conclusive on whether vegetarians show a greater increase in performance than their omnivore peers. Most of the studies we reviewed were limited by moderate to high risks of bias (Table 2); therefore, future studies of creatine supplementation in vegetarians could be improved by more vigorous randomized controlled trial designs.”

  7. It is possible to design a healthy Lacto-veg diet but i dont trust indian authorities to do it.

    I am Lacto when I eat Indian / random food but vegan otherwise. And possible to design healthy vegan diet (which is what I eat 99% or the time, but I don’t trust any government body to do it)

    I used to enjoy a nice steak when I was on college among other things so it is not purely Hindu culture driven either.

    I sort of came upon a similar protocol to Bryan Johnson (venmo founder sold to PayPal for 800 million) accidentally, although i think he has taken it to a different level. And now I am incorporating some of his ideas.

    He is is just an ex-Mormon trying to optimize for anti aging and longevity and happens to be Vegan.

    I think south Asians are actually genetically well suited to this sort of diet. I am blessed by Ganesha to be able to genuinely enjoy all foods and not picky at all so that helps.

    1. Honestly, I rely on dairy a crap ton and legumes after that. I don’t rely on some of the grain based proteins that vegans tend to also emphasize. I think it’s because I just like milk and cheese a lot. I don’t eat eggs really because my family traditionally doesn’t. But the vast majority of American eggs are unfertilized. So theoretically I could and still be consistent. I end up having some on the rare chance I eat cake or something. Granted, most restaurants pastas and stuff have them.

      1. I have forever been on the cusp of trying unfertilized eggs but haven’t made the jump yet. Feel that it is gateway food to meat 😄.

      2. Milk and dairy proteins in general are higher quality than plant based proteins.

        Basically a healthy diet is really hard to sustain, a healthy vegetarian diet even more so, and vegan is even more challenging.

        That’s just a fact.

        I am weird and can do it, but I don’t think it is good for most ppl.

        1. Lacto vegetarian frankly isn’t that hard to sustain. On Harvard giant diet study that diet along with pescatarian was associated with a better mortality. Tons of people do it well. The issue is moving away from dairy heavy traditional diets. People need to drink enough milk and eat enough milk products. Dals have to be thick and full of lentils. Again, my father worked in a car factory in Harayana. Lot of strong dudes from various castes. More than half were vegetarian. You couldn’t tell who was and who wasn’t, until you went to the mess hall.

          Milk is a very high quality animal protein. The stuff is the life blood for lacto vegetarians. The name namesake with it in front is quite apt. I look at my diet, and I inadvertently adopted something similar to the heavy milk diets of NW, without thinking much about it. Indian parents encourage the hell out of milk for a reason. I actually listened.

          People just don’t want to eat good food. They’ll eat some crap MSG loaded lo mein takeout. And then scoff at me eating an entire large can of Goya chickpeas (cooked chole) in one sitting with some rice, Greek yogurt, and boiled veggies on the side.

          1. “Goya chickpeas (cooked chole) in one sitting with some rice, Greek yogurt, and boiled veggies on the side.”

            Wow, how appetizing! Sounds absolutely delectable.

          2. Indian meat preparations are full of oil and spices too. Looking at Nihari or Lucknowi beef Kabab gives me a heart attack. Bengali Hilsa swims in like 100 gm of mustard oil…

            By and large, Indian meat preparations are thoroughly mediocre.

          3. Goya chickpeas are actually good (and I’m not at all vegetarian myself).

            If you’re insistent on doing vegetarianism right then there’s much to be said in favour of soybeans- they’re much richer in protein than any other plant source, and are the most productive source of protein on a per-land-area basis in the world.

        2. Chole is quite delicious when cooked right. Right amount of onion, garlic, tomato, turmeric, salt, chillis, etc.

          1. Browns keep dousing food with countless spices and oils and get surprised when they turn out diabetic with clogged as fuck arteries.

            Also, vegetarian diets sound so unpleasant lol motherfuckas are try to”replicate” the taste and flavour of meat with mushrooms lol this has to be a joke.

            I’ll just stick to my chicken and beef thank you. Cooked chickpeas with boiled veggies or something ugh

          2. I mean I don’t dousd with oil. And stuff like turmeric is good for you.
            Clogged arteries common as hell for genetic reasons too. Many Browns eat less oil than others and still have it happen.

            Let people eat what they want. Don’t force anyone in either direction. Where is the disagreement?

            I am not trying to replicate anything. I’ve haven’t eaten meat beyond some accidental times.

          3. thewarlock,

            It can be done. Takes care and effort which Indian Hindus have not put in, so what gives? I will take meat over stunting.

            I do believe squats, deadlift, pullup, overhead shoulder press, bench press, rows should be treated on par with puja.

            Baki there is this mostly Pakistani Muslim Punjabi and some Mojahir guys in Cal/UK/Toronto circle-jerk sub-culture doing munh-chodi about eating meat only, yoga is for soy-boys, lifting, PBUH, Jinnah, seed-oil, wage-cuck, fala-dhikana, … basically Urdu/Punjabi tall-talk…

            Jab gaand phategi with some back injury, or gastro-problems everyone with any brain will run to moderation, yoga and balanced diet. Using brain in what to eat and how to exercise is key…

          4. @Bhimrao

            Tend to generally agree. I would love if they do ovo lacto right. Many can do it I still think. But if some people just refuse and want meat and that will prevent stunting. So be it.

            Ego lifting is bad. But heavy lifting is quite safe, if done with good programming. Granted the hyper Redpill wanna be guys who you referenced do have a good proportion of morons with no programming or training knowledge. I’ve seen plenty snapped up over the years. But plenty of all types get snapped up. I’ve been at it now for almost a decade. Some minor strains and pulls but luckily nothing major.

          5. I have leg length discrepancy, that and a desk job causes lower back pain on one side after squatting every few months. I had a serious episode about three years ago. Had to spend time in a yoga retreat to recover. Stretching and yoga have helped a lot, have started taking off shoes while squatting. Nowhere near what you describe your current lifting capacity but getting better at this.

          6. @Bhim. I’ve been at it for 9 years now. I just hit double BW squat for reps at 340×5, weighing in the low 170s to good depth. It takes time. Some things come faster for some than others. I did a lot of dumb shit when I started and have a rough life schedule with medicine. But it can be done. And some people structurally have trouble with some movements. Don’t do them if that’s the case. There are many alternatives.

            What’s your email? I’ll send you more info about what my journey was and some lifting footage.

          7. “But if some people just refuse and want meat”

            Those who want to will eat it despite all arguments, those who don’t want to will not eat it despite all arguments. I do get the ethical reasoning behind it, I just don’t want people to be stunted.

            A lot of my Baniyas/Baman friends lie to their families about not eating meat. Almost every one does it for taste not health.

            I have given up on this debate like I no longer care about caste/inter-caste marriages. People will do what they want anyways, why bother to explain or convince?

          8. Nah, it’s gotta be epigenetic. There is so much oil used in the cooking and there’s butter and stuff in the rice and biryani and ghee etc

            It’s unhealthy food after another.

            re: the diet things

            People eat what they want and they don’t eat the right stuff and it leads to inefficiency

          9. There evidence of smaller coronaries and also low lean mass phenotype going back to the Holocene. S Asians on average are built to withstand starvation but this maladaptive in obosegenic world of processed foods. Maybe some epigenetic stuff. But there is very clear genetic stuff.

          10. I read the ancient origins of lean mass in Sotuh Asians paper as well, that I understand. I’m talking about the higher rates of different illnesses and artery issues which really dont need to happen and can be prevented with less salt, less oil, less butter, less ghee etc

            A lot of the food is overcooked to the point that there is no more nutrition left in them

          11. the low lean mass, smaller coronaries, greater visceral fat storage tendencies- which all seem have ancient origins- predisposes to a “skinny-fat” metabolic syndrome prone phenotype in the modern era.

            Indian food may be too buttery, oily, sugary, salty etc. However, the ill effects are further exaggerated by this genetic predisposition.

            I have almost never seen a Type II diabetic of normal BMI and full European heritage. Yet I have seen many S Asians like that. Not all even have THAT much visceral fat. I am talking 5’8 150lb men with like a 32 inch waist who comes in with an MI and 4 coronaries largely blocked. That type of stuff is just more common in S Asians. And it isn’t all environmental. And it isn’t all epigenetic. Genetics is a big part of it.

            But to your point, yes. The food has a lot of bad stuff in it. And fast food from the West will bring even more. Diet control and exercise has to be a huge part of S Asian existence to flourish.

            Hey at least the diseases S Asians tend to be prone to on average have a lifestyle component that we understand well. Some diseases more common in other populations just don’t.

            Btw, the degree of using those ingredients is new. S Asia in recent history had negligible obesity until recently. Things are about to get really bad. Two reasons

            1. Money. People can buy that bad food now.
            2. Less manual labor. More office work. Less stuff like manual farming.

            S Asians who can afford things over eat and eat the wrong shit. Those who can’t, just starve and get stunted. Not enough of a good middle.

          12. >Baki there is this mostly Pakistani Muslim Punjabi and some Mojahir guys in Cal/UK/Toronto circle-jerk sub-culture doing munh-chodi about eating meat only, yoga is for soy-boys, lifting, PBUH, Jinnah, seed-oil, wage-cuck, fala-dhikana, … basically Urdu/Punjabi tall-talk…

            The Prophet of Allah (PBUH) encouraged Muslims to indulge in physical activities such as wrestling, archery, hunting, horse riding .. in modern times, therefore a muslim should practice shooting with firearms, know how to wrestle and how to hunt, and should keep fast cars or motorcycles. The Prophet of Allah also encouraged trading, the best of professions, over earning a wage.

            Seed oil and sugar consumption is the reason for the rising number of fat people around the globe. A Muslim who prays five times a day cannot become fat (because he wouldn’t be able to perform the prayer)

            Lifting for strength is good, but eventually pointless. Lifting for aesthetics is much better. They are basically the same for noobs but once past the noob stage, strength is useless. Meat is better than vegetables. Beef > Camel > Goat > Fish > Chicken.

    2. This guy seems OCPD. A lot of those markers he is putting so much stock into aren’t evidence based, in terms of backed by large enough studies for anything near consensus guidelines.

      Putting all that aside, his fitness is good. I would make tweaks to his strength program for sure. Granted, his goals may be different than mine in that department.

      He has enough strength for pure health and longevity in that area. You don’t need to be Hercules for that. But he wants cutting edge and hard numbers to show “proof.” I get it

      Overall, he is a very healthy guy. He looks great, especially in terms of leaness. His dedication is remarkable. Respect

      1. I think of him as a longevity athlete.
        I agree with the metrics bit, it also sometimes the case they are correlated with other stuff and when you try to game the metrics don’t have the same causal health benefit.

        But I don’t think it is that different than strength metrics. For eg. can look at strength athletes they train for 1RM on particular modalities with varying degrees of carryover on others and there is significant impact of things like flexibility (for eg. arch on benchpress, or technique on clean and jerk, or leverage due to limb length).

        Overall I think 80% of his results probably exercise, caloric restriction, and nutritious foods.
        A lot of longevity crowd says there is a tradeoff between muscle building and longevity (m-tor signaling or something), so they try to limit protein intake. I have no idea if this is true.

        I am fairly strict compared to the average person, but compared to this guy very relaxed.

        1. Lol most people can’t build much muscle, if they tried. After noob gains, you get some but not a lot. So I think some of that is longevity cope.

          Unrelated, but thankfully USAPL changed bench rules. Arching was getting nuts. Now at least as a min ROM required.

          1. Yes to be clear the argument is protein correlated with reduced longevity due to increased mTOR signaling.

            Muscle mass itself is then maybe impacted since eating lower protein. Not the muscle mass leads to increase mortality.

            This stuff is outside my wheelhouse, so idk.

          2. doi: 10.12688/f1000research.17196.1
            mTOR as a central regulator of lifespan and aging

            This review seems good^

            High-protein diets increase cardiovascular risk by activating macrophage mTOR to suppress mitophagy

            And aging paradigm seems to be from stuff like this ^
            I saw some immune function stuff in humans too. Could be something to it.

            For S Asians though, it’s probably better to err on side of higher protein and less carbs. The lack of lean tissue at baseline is a greater driver for metabolic lack of fitness than this type of minor stuff. But yeah, I get the intuitions behind more restricted protein. We see it work well in Okinawans. That coupled with calorie restriction. Granted you can argue the latter is driving most of it.

  8. Question for the Indians: Do you see yourself and other Indians eating egg whites that are almost identical to the real thing but are made by the process of “precision fermentation” without any animals? This could be a game changer in the near future, not only in terms of diet restrictions but cost/access as well.


  9. I support eggs in mid day meal program {because of their nutritious value}. It is more abt. political corruption than any cultural sensitivity.

    Usually these arguments are used to disband existing contracts to employ their preferred contractors or to add them in supply chain as middleman.

  10. Insane move by the BJP who clearly have gaps in their understanding of nutrition. They’re compromising the health of their own children. Now I see why there’s much resistance to them.

    I was veg for about 30 years (Hindu) and since I started eating meat I’ve felt stronger and more stable. Vegetarianism doesn’t work, and veganism will produce an army of soy boys who will lead the country into a left wing abyss.

    1. So this sort of view is also wrong.
      You absolutely can be strong af on a vegetarian diet or vegan diet.
      I am a lot stronger than when I used to eat meat and also pretty top tier relative to the average person.

      Unfertilized Eggs are semi-vegetarian, Indian kids lack protein so I would sort of support including them esp in states where most people are not vegetarian.

      In vegetarian states it is possible and not that hard to also design a more culturally palatable alternative (yogurt + daal + rice + vegetables).

      1. Whenever Indian Hindus say they eat meat, they usually mean they eat meat ‘sporadically’. Some chicken here, some goat there. But when you closely examine their diet, it’s still 95% vegetarian.
        People’s diets are habitual and ingrained, and don’t change much radically over the course of their lifetimes, unless a very concentrated effort is made to do so.

        1. Maybe for average person, in my case at one point I was getting 95% of my calories from animal sources.

          People have weird attachment to their diets, I agree.

        2. I got to know that meat is a staple when I came to the US. In India it is almost universally considered a special item. The only exception were hostel mess in Bengal that used to serve fish and chicken two times each per week. When compared to proper carnivorous countries, Pakistanis don’t eat a lot of meat either.

          Pakistan’s per capita meat consumption is 3-4X India. Given that a significant minority of Hindus are vegetarian, I think the actual difference between Indian and Pakistani meat-eating people’s meat consumption per capita would be ~2X.

          Bangladesh’s average is same as India. I believe average meat eater in Bangladesh eats less meat as average Indian meat eater.

          Bangladesh’s food costs are unusually high.

          There is a west to east cline. Punjabis and (Hindu Indian idk about Pakistani) Sindhis in general spend far more on food and eat higher quality food than (Indian) Bengalis, a trend I believe will hold in Bangladesh. Eat or attend parties in Ludhiana vs Kolkata, the difference is night and day, it shows in the build of village people too.

          Among vegetarians, Jains, Rajput, Meena, Jaats are the only exception. Most other Indians vegetarians including Gangetic Bamans, Baniyas, … look stunted and malnourished. Most village muslims in UP look really stunted too, so maybe it is poverty?

          1. Yeah my family isn’t stunted. But they are rich. Most young boys drink like a liter of milk a day. Gangetic plains have lack of calories in general. People eat like 1500 calories a day and do manual labor.

            You need sufficient calories (dont over do of course) and protein. That’s 80% of the game. Rest is all minor for maximizing growth. Important but not the main thing (I get it if you don’t have any fat soluble vitamins, etc, you can be fucked. But I’m talking big picture.)

          2. West Bengal=/= Bangladesh. They may share some ethno-linguistic ties with us but it doesn’t hold for everything.

            Don’t know much about West Bengal but Bangladeshis in Canada eat a lot of food, my family in particular has always gone above and beyond in terms of groceries.

            Consumption of milk too, I had tons of milk ever since I was a kid, both in glasses and with milk+cereal.

          3. “West Bengal=/= Bangladesh. They may share some ethno-linguistic ties with us but it doesn’t hold for everything.”

            Whatever sails your boat… I don’t care.

            Bangladeshis (in Bangladesh) don’t drink a lot of milk and it shows in their build. Pakistanis drink 8-9-times the milk Bangladeshis do, and it shows.


            Milk in the US is cheaper than in India, US tries hard to export it too. I wish we could import US/Aus/NZ dairy by the shiploads. Problem solved.

          4. “Re Milk prices in US vs IN, i don’t think your numbers pan out. In PNW, whole milk is ~$4-$5 per half gallon (i.e. ~2 Ltrs). In KA, the equivalent full cream milk is INR 44 ( see Pg. 3. The cost of living factor between US and IN that big tech uses i.e. 3:1 roughly holds up in this case.”

            California and Seattle are retarded. Midwest and Southwest you can get a Gallon whole milk for ~$2.5-2.7. Not that long ago it was $2, And that too when you get it packaged and from a air conditioned, clean place. Milk in UP cities is ~45-50/liter.

            I can get you non anecdotal numbers too. American dairy is a (cruel and) productive beast subsidized by the richest government.

          5. Bhimrao,

            You implied that the food habits of West Bengal would also apply to Bangladesh so you clearly do care.

            Also this is the “source” for the milk consumption numbers and it’s completely defunct lmao so I don’t know how the numbers “show” anything

          6. [email protected]
            “India consumes less than half the milk pee capita as Pak. Not good.”
            I would wager that a good portion of family income at least in SI goes towards alcohol consumption which arguably could have gone to milk/egg consumption 🙁

          7. Alcohol and nicotine are trash for the mind, body, and soul. I mean keep it legal of course. But really it’s awful stuff. If one can obtain, that is best. I’ve enjoyed my share of drunken nights, but it’s frankly just bad for you health wise. Maybe a glass here or there can be neutral. But one glass often leads to 2, 3, 5. Some have great self control. Good for them.

    2. I mean I have advanced strength numbers across the board and am approaching elite on the deadlift. I have had no issues with strength or muscle. But some people just wouldn’t want to eat the way I do.

      I get about half or my protein from animal sources a day from just amount of dairy I consume.

  11. Does anyone have data on whether the higher meat consumption in Pakistan shows up in health and nutritional surveys compared to neighbouring Indian populations?

    How does malnutrition in Punjab and Sindh compared to Indian states like Punjab, Gujarat and Rajasthan that have very high levels of vegetarianism? I’m guessing Gujarat and Rajasthan fair poorly while Punjab does relatively well because of high dairy consumption? How does height compare across these populations?

    Also I wonder what would be the genetic potential of Indians if they ate a Western diet? Would the average male height approach 5’8 or 5’9 like it did in some east asian countries?


      Citation on bottom of graph. Tallest states are Kerela and Punjab at 168.3 and 168.7. Gujarat is 166 3 and Rajasthan is 167.5. This is despite way worse malnutrition metrics in both those places compared to Kerela and Punjab. Despite high gdp per capita, Gujarat does badly on starvation and maternal mortality indices.

      1. a guy looked at bengalis for me re height PRS. we’re predicted to be a bit shorter. he says it looks to be mostly in the e. asian ancestry

        1. yeah. it makes sense. AASI skeletons weren’t short. Iranic biased ones and steppe weren’t either. Steppe were quite robust and more of a power build. AASI were lankier and more of a speed vs. endurance build, depending on muscle fiber bias. Shorter height comes from E Asian. Pahari groups and Nepali ones are also shorter than plains people on average, when nutrition is held equal.

          Culture and nutrition of course matters, but I think some of the wrestling success is more related to a robust frame rather than a height in the NW. But this frame is still less robust on average compared to Samoans, some West Africans, Northwestern Euros, Mongols, and Caucus people. So that explains why the highest level of success only in low weight classes.

          Javelin favors long limbed people. So that AASI input that gives that combined with steppe robustness can definitely help. It doesn’t require the shear mass of shot put or discus. So I think is great Chopra did so well and why more S Asians are coming to the forefront.

          Looking at AASI build, it makes sense why more track records are now disproportionately being broken by Southern S Asians and why first person to break 10 second barrier was Sri Lankan.

          1. Need to keep in mind, SL is only 22 million people. Somewhat the size of Mumbai.

            With this, he also broke his own record time of 10.06 secs that he set late May 25 at the Paul-Greifzu-Stadion, Dessau in Germany. While Yupun Abeykoon won the event in the heat, Cuban sprinter Reynier Mena finished second in 9.99 secs, and Michael Zeze Meba clocked 10.00 secs in third place. When Yupun becave the first athlete from South Asia to run below 10 secs, Sri Lanka also automatically became the 32nd country with a sub-10 sprinter, and Yupun is the 167th member of the sub-10 club.

            He is an Italian-based Sri Lankan track and field athlete and a national record holder in men’s 100m and in men’s indoor 60m.

            He was, in fact, attached to the Electronic and Mechanical Engineering Regiment of the Sri Lanka Army and always represented Army Sports Club at every available opportunity. However, in 2015, he received a scholarship to Italy. Since then he has been residing in Italy.

            first and foremost, he is a hard worker with a strong mindset. Like Susanthika Jayasinghe, he is also rooted in a village environment, which is instrumental in success for an athlete.

            However, after setting the Asian record with 9.96 secs in Switzerland, Yupun, through a video clip, revealed that he didn’t get any support from Sri Lankan sports officials to achieve his goal, he spoke about them in disgust

            Baked in SL, icing in Italy


          2. Actually, I found another study go to page 39 for the results, it’s in milimetres lol


            Apparently the the average 18-20 something year old man in Bangladesh is 168.2 cm tall so 5’6 basically. This seems to check out with my observations of the FOBs from BD in Canada.

            I saw elsehwerre that 5’4 was how tall the average Bangladeshi male was and I scoffed at that. That’s an exaggeration. My dad was born in the 70s and he’s 5’6 and my mom is about 5’4. No way was my mom as on avg tall or taller than the average Bangladeshi man of their generation or in general.

          3. Nepal Khas Brahmins only have around 5-6% Asian tho, that too it’s a “Northern” Asian ie Tibetan. They’re pretty short too are they not? Even tho they score 33% South Indian, 34-35% Baloch and high NE-Euro and Caucasian scores

      2. An anthropometry study conducted on 716 Dhaka University students, 519 of whom were male and 192 of whom were female. The average total height male and female was 1.66 metres that is 166 cm so 5’6. Page 3 has the results, so the young men my age in the old country are like 168-169 cm on average seeing as the female height was included in the average. That’s some real retarded shit from the authors, a very unproffesional blunder. 27% of the people were female.

    2. “Would the average male height approach 5’8 or 5’9 like it did in some east asian countries?”

      Indians army conscripts in Singapore armed forces are around that range, and taller than Chinese / Malay Singapore conscripts.


      Singapore Indian citizens are mostly Tamil ethnically.

      Tamils in India are sort of middling height ethnic group but significantly shorter on average compared to the Singapore conscript data (which is taller than any Indian ethnic group).

      There seems to broadly be a west – east cline in height, I expect some states to get to 5’10 / 5’11 averages and some to be shorter if they approach developed country standards.

      1. note that south chinese (most singapores, like 90+% are south Chinese, most from fujian, rest from Guangdong) are short. north Chinese are tall

        1. Guangdong = Canton
          Growing up most Chinese were called Cantonese and they spoke Cantonese.
          It was only after Mao Ze Tung that Mandarin became enforced as the lingua franca of China and in a sense unifying mainland China. (Hint to Hindi supporters)
          Wiki Excerpts
          On the mainland, Cantonese continued to serve as the lingua franca of Guangdong and Guangxi provinces even after Mandarin was made the official language of the government by the Qing dynasty in the early 1900s
          Cantonese is viewed as a vital and inseparable part of the cultural identity for its native speakers across large swaths of Southeastern China, Hong Kong and Macau, as well as in overseas communities
          dominant and co-official language of Hong Kong and Macau. Cantonese is also widely spoken amongst Overseas Chinese in Southeast Asia (most notably in Vietnam and Malaysia, as well as in Singapore and Cambodia to a lesser extent) and throughout the Western world.

    1. Indian Americans tend to be decently healthy, especially younger ones. Middle aged ones not so much.

      But some of it is family and some of it is just less other stuff like skin cancer.

      Hispanics are poorer and have better life expectancy than whites. Some that is family networks.

      S Asians are lucky in a sense. Diseases they tend to get have known things that can be done lifestyle wise. They also have good family support culture.

      Most common suicide demographic is old white men. Indian Americans also smoke and drink less I suspect. Fewer hard drugs too.

      Canadians not so much. There is an Udta Kaneda going on sadly

      1. Indians also have insurance and good access to care. They tend to be adherent (listen to doctors more) and that good family support means fewer missed appointments, etc. Parents live with kids more and get more support. Some of this is anecdote. But I’m comparing patients I have seen. And I went to med school and rotated in outpatient clinics in heavily desi American area.

    2. Indian Americans tend to be decently healthy, especially younger ones. Middle aged ones not so much.

      But some of it is family and some of it is just less other stuff like skin cancer.

      Hispanics are poorer and have better life expectancy than whites. Some that is family networks.

      S Asians are lucky in a sense. Diseases they tend to get have known things that can be done lifestyle wise. They also have good family support culture.

      Most common suicide demographic is old white men. Indian Americans also smoke and drink less I suspect. Fewer hard drugs too.

      Canadians not so much. There is an Udta Kaneda situation

  12. “A Muslim who prays five times a day cannot become fat (because he wouldn’t be able to perform the prayer)”

    Wouldn’t they just do what elderly people / people with less mobility etc do?

    At any rate car oriented rich mid-east muslim countries are some of the most obese on the planet, on par with, or even exceeding, America – the land of haram.

    The only more obese places are in the pacific islands, where there is partly genetic factors so high BMI not as bad for them (sort of the opposite of South Asians)

    1. There are 48 rakats everyday, that’s 48 x kneel, 96 x prostration, 48 times sitting in a weird feet flex position, and +48 times getting up. Every single day. Most obese people don’t have the flexibility to do all this repeatedly, especially not in a mosque whereby they can fake it with eyes on them to conform. They also can’t use the elderly method if they arent elderly or disabled, its forbidden. It’s very likely they all pray at home or don’t even pray at all. I’m talking about young people here. Middleeast obesity rate is prime example of the evils of sugar and seed oil (which forms the bedrock of American fast food chains popular there causing all this havoc)

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