Open Thread, 1/27/2023, Brown Pundits

Some stuff from my Substack: Genetic history with Chinese characteristics – How two Bronze-Age tribes became the world’s 1.3 billion Han (without even changing much genetically) and Venerable Ancestors: untangling the Chinese people’s hybrid Pleistocene origins origins – More than 40,000 years of human evolution in East Asia. I’ve written more about India because it’s super genetically variable, unlike China. But China has more written history.

Also, if anyone wants to know what I’ve been doing with most of my time the last few years, I founded a tech startup, GenRAIT.

345 thoughts on “Open Thread, 1/27/2023, Brown Pundits”

  1. Controversial opinion – the origins of a religiously/cleanliness associated hierarchy in South Asia began with the West Siberian Hunter Gatherer component in the IVC.

    Their religious rites facilitated the easy imposition of later Bronze Age Steppe men on an existing system, resulting in priestly groups having bigger steppe ancestry.

    1. I suspect the “western siberian hunter gatherer” component is a result of using an ANE deficient Iran proxy for the Iran component in South Asian ancestry. As in, it’s not actually there.

    1. Not a fan of the italian maid porker but i like his brother. I admire his passion for population control. R.I.P Sanjay, you insane bastard.

      ‘”I am proud that Tamil is the oldest language in the world”: PM Modi at #ParikshaPeCharcha’
      BJP loves Tamil so much that it would much rather spend 600 crores promoting a dead language instead of Tamil lmao

    2. Modi twerking hard for that elusive Tamil vote. Hope it doesn’t end with him the way it did for Rajiv Gandhi

      Ha ha good one

  4. I keep listening to anand ranganathan, sai deepak, and many on the rightwing. For them, islam is the worst thing ever and the biggest danger ever. For me, its the west and christianity.
    I see things in terms of rate of change and volatility and ability to make laws and abuse the system and escape immune reaction.

    By all measures, it is more probable to survive islam for longer time than christianity. I always say this, kalash survived, yazidis survived, hindus in bali survived, zoroastrians survived, where as in west, no other religious group survived,Even jews were persecuted. And if one notices, rate of change of christianity in last 120 yrs in India, it has been very rapid and fast than christianity. Shouldnt one focus on the fast changing thing than the older slower to change thing?/ Partition and antics of pakistan changed the brains of everyone. It also is the case that perhaps rightwing are bad at maths, they see numbers as bigger threat than rate of change. Also politically muslims are not the ones opposing bjp, it is mostly colonized idiots which is again a product of west. The people opposing are not inspired by islam, but by west. I wonder what gaurav has to say about this. can someone ping him on this question?

    1. You should read Razib’s stuff on Christianity. He’s written a lot. It’s definitely not what you seem to think.

      1. Vijay (old pal, commentor?)
        You should read Razib’s stuff on Christianity. He’s written a lot. It’s definitely not what you seem to think.

        Its not Christianity per se these days, it is what it has metastasized into; Human Right and Democracy and by extension Samantha Power (and Hillary’s) R2P, Right to Protect. Thats the doctrine they used to bomb Libya back to the Stone Age.

        R2P, Human Right and Democracy are just regurgitating Christian Evangelism in a new garb. i.e. the right to convert the pagans and savages.

      2. Christianity cannot be separated from colonialism , neo colonialism , imperialism and poor survival of other religious traditions , whatever its positives might have been.

        To me, one of its biggest sin is that it destroyed greeco roman civilization and has abused its ideas to boost itself. Talk of cultural appropriation of the worst kind. And because it is zealous, its counter part is required to also become zealous as well . The fact christians knock the door to convert makes it necessary for others to also do so, repeatedly, endlessly, the competition is endless and forever. Add volatility to it and you will notice zealous movements come about again and again. Protestantism, marxist violence, hitler , now wokeism etc. Often to confront zealotry, other side also has to become so as well because the competition is relentless and forever. co existence is something that is much harder with Christianity than others. Hence i use the term, “rate of change”. christianity destroys relatively stable ecology and forces other side to arm themselves too. And it is in the architecture of christianity to try to use these movements among other things like states, laws etc to further itself.

        Mimetic warfare of christianity against all others as explained here.
        ” Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some.I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.
        Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever.Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air.No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.”
        What do you think the consequences of a world take over ideology shall be on others?.
        There are statistical consequences to certain ideas.

  5. https://www.firstpost.com/entertainment/pathaan-movie-review-shah-rukh-khan-zips-around-a-slick-addictive-version-of-the-akshay-kumar-universe-12046272.html

    ‘Instead, right at the start, Pathaan informs us of the deshbhakt protagonist’s Muslim identity without appearing to emphasise it, panders to a populist notion of patriotism that identifies Hindi with the desh (speak to me in Hindi, the hero tells his captors more than once, kyunki Arbi mein tumhe gaali dene mein voh mazaa nahin hai), and an important character assures us that the evil Pakistani is a rogue agent who does not have official sanction for his attack on India.

    All bases have been covered. All is well with the world. And we can all go home feeling assured that at least an SRK film did not do to India’s minorities what the rest of Bollywood is doing. Umm. Correct?’

    LOL, looks like Pathaan took the liberals for a ride (and their money). Soon SRK will be dancing in some Adani/Ambani wedding, and accepting awards from Modi.

    And then we will be back to square 1.

  6. One thing i liked about brownpundits is that no one fell into trap of movies. No one discusses movies here. It means there is a minimum intelligent baseline here. Also, please watch avatar: way of the water please, please, please. The technology of what it took to make it is incredible.

      1. I am dunking on myself mostly, 14 yrs back i abandoned my pursuit of phd as i realized i would not be a great physicist and ended up depressed only to once again become depressed realizing i was stupid to not take the consolation prize of atleast getting the phd and hence in pain took to twitter, movies, entertainment, pop culture, history , politics etc. one should not compare is now my motto. My friends aimed for something realistic and got it though and i am happy for them. Truly, the path to shitposting comes from failing at something.

        James Cameroon is a great director, his stories are stupid but he transports you into an another beautiful world in an immersive way. It takes a genius to do that. India too now has its own small budget james cameroon in rajamouli working within the constraints of Indian cinema and its idiosyncrasies . My earliest recollection of rajamouli is that his works were trash and then one day i saw magadheera, and for a brief moment i saw something no Indian cinema maker could put on such kind of visual action. Others behind me were snickering that it was copied from hollywood, it wasnt, it was something incredible that one was watching an Indian do, the first Indian. Fast forward 14 yrs and james cameroon tells him, “lets talk if you want to work here “.
        I guess his view of life was to do the shit that is needed to survive so that he could do what he wanted later in life. India ofcourse has better film makers than him, but none of them can put on a visual spectacle to capture peoples attention to get them to see Indian cinema. With him though, some in hollywood have been watching him from sometime and his recent RRR on netflix got him much more attention. He is not the best film maker in India though, that is mani ratnam but he is the guy who can put on a visual spectacle to capture peoples attention. Attention that once caught can be directed towards the other good products in the country.

        Entertainment should be one area where it should be possible to compete with Hollywood on, earn some money that way. Apart from hollywood, the only other thing that sold at the world level was kungfu and kungfu comedy. I hope we earn some $$$ without going woke. It would be a problem for India to earn that way if we were going the china way.

        But Modi/rss for all practical purposes have shown that they have no aim at the moment of taking India on the china way.It does piss people off that they are getting accused of the very thing they just dont seem to do. Both ,The moderates are pissed off at the propaganda, the hardliners are pissed off that they arent really hard. VIshwagurus gonna Vishwaguru!!!.

    2. I think movies are out of favor for most millenial males. US movie ticket sales have been continuously declining now for 20 years, even though the overall population and GDP per capita have grown significantly.

  7. Ever since BJP has formed the government hindi is being forced down upon us. I care about the unity of India but Hindi imposition has to stop once and for all.

      1. Going by the recent polls Kannada and Marathi wont vote for BJP.

        We may soon see Bangalore-Delhi and Mumbai-Delhi Sangam 🙂

  8. Gunga din dhume in action tying adani with modi.
    https://mobile.twitter.com/dhume/status/1619110990137753602.

    Counter point in Adani matter
    https://m.economictimes.com/news/company/corporate-trends/view-what-really-worries-indians-about-adanis-empire/articleshow/97361769.cms?utm_source%3Dtwitter_web%26utm_medium%3Dsocial%26utm_campaign%3Dsocialsharebuttons

    I don’t care personally about particular individuals but in this case the aim seems to hurt the infra and industrial capacity of India.
    Hopefully we have redundancy and resiliency built against such attacks.

    1. The guy who wrote the counter view, Mihir Sharma, is perhaps one of the few writers i take seriously in Indian business. Though he is anti BJP, he doesn’t let his ideology cloud his writing. For the most part.

      One good thing is that he is a bona fide capitalist, unlike commies (from certain ethnicities) who cosplay as capitalist in IMF or Chicago business Schools.

  12. On the Adani thing: I don’t think his empire will collapse but right to ask tough questions on nepotism wrt Modi govt.

    None of the Australian banks wanted to underwrite his coalmines in Australia, but SBI did. LIC has been investing more and more money his way. Even now they are throwing in cash as the stock declines. He got the Dharavi deal in Mumbai on the cheap. Clearly, his political connections have a lot to do with his business success and that’s usually not a good sign for a society.

    As Arvind Subramanian has said, those who defend the monopolies of Adani and Ambani often point to the Chaebols in South Korea as a model to emulate. But the difference is that they were focused on exports, so them getting rich had the downstream effect of improving the country’s competitiveness.

    By contrast, Adani and Ambani mostly own domestic-centric assets like ports, infra, energy and telecom. Sure, Ambani has refineries, which export a lot, but in an age where EVs are rapidly growing, that has a clear sunset and will come faster than most expect.

    1. ‘As Arvind Subramanian has said,’

      India’s curse is that it has more per capita economists than GDP per capita

    2. A lot of the success of Japanese and South Korean keiretsu and chaebols cam be attributed to the fact that America essentially opened its markets to these countries without demanding the same from them, just to get these countries to develop. India won’t get that kind of access to any major developed country.

    3. I am sure the ambani petroleum exports have come in handy in terms of forex reserves for IN and end customers in west, who are treating RU as an untouchable. Adani is also investing in overseas assets viz. AU coal mines and Haifa port. It is not realistic to expect IN to follow SK path exactly. Decades of home grown socialism + western sponsored ngos have given us first world woke politics while ensuring we have 3rd world economy. Given the ever increasing demands for welfare, I don’t see any other realistic options to this “National Champions” approach to the rapid build out and management of our key infra assets. In some ways, Adani could be the replacement for ILFS. My only concern is Adani also ending up the ILFS way.
      Plus there is the “meritocratic “ PLI approach. Even there the people risking their money are being vilified by western shills and keyboard warriors like us.

    4. “He got the Dharavi deal in Mumbai on the cheap.”

      Was the Dharavai deal actually cheap? From what I read it was more than twice as high as the next largest bid and seemed quite a reasonable amount given the difficulties in redeveloping such a slum.

    5. You can go further back and look at the so called “Robber Barons” of the USA’s “Gilded Age” that transformed America from a backwater dump at the end of the civil war to the richest most industrialized country in the world at the beginning of the 20th century. These kind of industrialist are actually quite common and maybe even useful for counties at India’s stage of development if they build productive assets instead of just living off of government largess.
      Maybe India needs its own Andrew Carnegie, Cornelius Vanderbilt or John D. Rockefeller.

      2. @Rai
        The USA was already the richest country in the western world, pulling even with, and surpassing, the UK in population and GDP around 1860. Only China, with its vastly larger population possibly still had the highest GDP at the time.
        The shift of economic power to the americas was anticipated at least a generation before that. Perhaps it was thought that industrious people create rich societies against all odds and there was something obvious about the destiny of the anglo diaspora.
        Small differences in character of the average person in the labor force compounds many times and manifest as GDP/ per capita multiples of 20x between Europeans and South Asians. Makes one doubt if being somewhat conciliatory towards would-be robber barons is a type of wisdom.

        1. Girmit@
          I am not discounting the human agency of the Anglo diaspora but they did get to create a virtual blank slate in NA and AU, much to the detriment of native Americans and aboriginal people.
          Even today big tech and defense companies are de facto aligned with USG.
          If you are saying that IN needs better “robber barons “ then I agree. But I suspect the people complaining about adani would not stop till IN and would be barons toe the neo-liberal line.

    1. Saurav, I guess you did not see the handle of the post.
      MIA aka Maya Mathangi Arulpragasam, daughter of a Tamil Terrorist.

      The only very South South Asian and who looks it (dark, skinny, and I love that look) who became big. So I give her big pass.

      I saw her at Summer Stage, Central Park, NY and Mermaid Parade, Coney Island, NY around 2005 (I think) just as she was becoming well known. Free concerts. I was living with some budding artists (all below 25, I was 46) many blocks away from middle of hipster Williamsburg. I was paying USD 500 to have a basement room with attached toilet. It was great. I was earning enough to save (to be back in SL), and every other evening bring bottles of wine/beer to share with all.

      One (or two) of the housemates said there is this Sri Lankan woman who is going to be at the Mermaid Parade and Summer Stage (and Knitting Factory). Also gave me a page from the Village Voice. So ended at both. Somehow did not do Knitting Factory. Maybe because there was an entrance fee

      Bottom line, M.I.A. cant articulate what if any oppression the Tamils have had, just a lot of “Agitprop Pop” music. The music is reasonably good, but M.I.A. is probably a milquetoast messenger advocating war for moral fags.

      Contrasted to Sinéad O’Connor’s heartfelt songs about the the oppression of the Irish by the English, M.I.A seems sadly lacking. To the contrary of what little political message she sings, she has sold out and joined the establishment. i.e. she

      “speaks about terrorism and Sri Lankan politics and all the while lives in a fancy house in a tony neighborhood with her billionaire husband

      https://sbarrkum.blogspot.com/2012/02/mia-with-maddona-at-superbowl.html

      1. “moralfags”

        lmao Sbarrkum man I did not expect you to use such modern web lingo hahhaha

        nah that’s interesting man

        1. lmao Sbarrkum man I did not expect you to use such modern web lingo hahhaha

          You would be surprised, I have lived in the ghetto, (harlem, South Bronx) but never used the lingo. Takes a lot of push to get me to use even fuxxer. I blend in with African Americans (or white American) without the need to use street slang.

          Same with Sinhala. I dont talk down, have to be courteous specially to the less well off. Manners taught by my parents, specially my mother. Dont bargain, if you cant pay walk away.

          I can walk, go to bars in Harlem and Bronx and talk nice. Most semi smart will know I am street savvy. It is about confidence and being yourself.

          phyeco
          pass on skin color
          I did for Obama, till he (and Hilary) bombed Libya

          Obama, one of the biggest hypocrites.

  14. The “sem2sem” bs from that Indian Rajasthani/Punjabi ‘blah’ or whatever the fuck he was was just exhausting, and inane.

    Dude flip-flopped like crazy, and couldn’t handle the historical facts and records. Hindutvas make up their own history to cope lmao we IZNT the sem2sem, guy.

    1. Historical facts and records about how there were no Hindus in Bengal and only Buddhists? Lmao.

      At least be original and come up with your own unique bs, entertain us. Heard this one a million times from our other neighbour.

      1. Yes historical evidence showing how bangladesh was Buddhist originally with Hindu influence only appearing in the 12th century and even then not changing much conaidering Bangladesh East Bengal was 75% Muslim even before Partition lmao

        Actually hilarious seeing indians sem2seming when the differences are so fucking huge.

        1. Lmao, I have zero interest in “sem2sem”.
          I’ll talk about it the day Indians open up 100s of “PAK/BAN cuisine” restaurants around the world.

          If anything, IMO India should cut all ties and seal both borders completely. Don’t want anything to do with either countries. Modi is far too soft.

          Throughout most of the country, BAN is heavily looked down upon (especially for the last 3-4 years), because it’s seen as nothing but a source of illegal immigrants.

          And I wonder if many of the “aman ki asha” types in India (outside of Punjab/Haryana) would even exist if Hindi and Urdu weren’t mutually intelligible.

          The rate of ‘aman ki asha’ tweets per month from across the border seems to have gone up-
          https://twitter.com/AmanNasirX/status/1618988236306800645?s=20&t=lXXIANTgpjjCDA-ybL5e5Q

          1. @IsThisReal “I’ll talk about it the day Indians open up 100s of “PAK/BAN cuisine” restaurants around the world.”

            By the way, why do ‘Indian’ restaurants abroad serve mainly Muslim food? Isn’t Hindu food marketable?

            Do the people in West know that all the tikkas and kababs and tandooris they eat in Indian restaurants get people killed back in India?

          2. LoL @Pak-India groceries and Pak-India restaurants. When will Pakistanis stop this appropriation?

          3. “The rate of ‘aman ki asha’ tweets per month from across the border seems to have gone up
            https://twitter.com/AmanNasirX/status/1618988236306800645?s=20&t=lXXIANTgpjjCDA-ybL5e5Q”

            Pakistanis churn out 100 podcasts/week. Always some dumb guy all decked up in the ek-jodi good clothes they have pretending to know a lot… sounding all serious… This pretentiousness is a feature of how Pakistanis talk in Urdu.

            badi-badi baatein, vada-pav khate… Dhanda aise nai chalta boss.

            Pakistanis don’t get the game yet. Thousands of Indians with PhDs in Physics, Math, Biochem,… thought they will win Nobel prizes, yet all we manage to do is get R1 tenure . Our best of the best CS folks were expected to make search engines, yet all we manage to do is work as L8 in Google dreaming of becoming a Principal one day…

            World is complicated, Indian business environment is even more complicated. Bangalore is no Silicon Valley. Kunal Shahs of Bangalore will steal all Pakistani entrepreneur’s ideas and kick them out like he does with naive Indians. Some VC out of Bangalore will leak their balance sheet. This is not a game Pakistanis can learn from India, IF they manage to do it, it will be by themselves. Like we Indians can’t make NVIDIA or Tencent (yet), Pakistanis can’t make Infosys (yet). There is a lot that happens beneath the surface.

            At the end of the day money is trust and work quantified. Trust takes time to build.

          5. Vegetarian food is not marketable in the west. It’s not vegan so hippies avoid it and it doesn’t have meat so everyone else skips it.

            The Pakistani restuarants here usually don’t use the Indian. The ones that still do are mostly run by Indian Muslims.. basically. N. Indian Muslim diet and our diet is quite similar so it doesn’t matter.

          6. LOL than be like the rest of your countrymen and “look down on us” and leave us out of your Hindutva delusions. You don’t seem to be capable of that, neither do your countrymen. They “look down” on us but on the same breath want us to be the sem2sem and part of “muh Greater india” bs “we are da same brozzer!!” you guys are seriously obsessed too ngl

            Just leave us out of it, thanks. You read what Razib said about what Bangladeshi peasants think about your whole “muh civilizational brotherhood” bs, right? They don’t agree lol

          7. “Vegetarian … it.”
            American Vegan food is trash.
            Saale 15 dollar ka ghaans-phuns khilate hain. Argulla apni mariyal bhains ko na khilaun main…
            I have these Chinese American, Valley-girl, yoga-vegan, colleagues who sometime make us eat at Sweet Green restaurant chain,🤢. I do it just to go with the group. But 🤮, $15 down the gutter. Bread butter tastes better.

            Some really committed European vegan restaurants do delight. The best I have had ever was: https://thefoodtemple.com/ in Lisbon, many excellent ones in the lower countries. Brilliant people these European hippie vegan chefs, Indian vegetarians should learn from them rather than putting ghee/cumin/onion/inger-garlic/garam-masala in everything.

            “The Pakistani restuarants … similar so it doesn’t matter.”
            Nope, you are wrong. It is always Pakistanis. I get my groceries from such places, eat at such places. I know what I am talking about.

  15. https://theprint.in/national-interest/return-of-the-muslim-from-modi-sermon-to-pathaan-to-bharat-jodo-yatra/1339143/

    ‘ They now believe that politically they have now solidified their electoral proposition. Hindus are not going to be divided again until at least 2024. Most of the key Hindutva/RSS objectives have been achieved.

    All key temples are being renovated and, at least for visibility, being reclaimed. Ujjain and Varanasi are done, Mathura is on the way. The acceptance of this Hinduness is so wide that so many of the tableaux on Republic Day feature Hindu gods and goddesses. Even that of Jammu and Kashmir with Amarnath. Is there still any mileage to be gained from this constant targeting of Muslims?

    Especially so at a time when India has just stepped into its G-20 presidency, which Modi is using as his larger political proposition to his voter base: Leadership of the world. It’s the wrong time, then, to light new fires of popular protest or global liberal criticism, or provoke terror attacks. He and his party now need social calm, at least till the summer of 2024.

    That may be minimalistic, but it’s still a logical explanation for this change.

  16. I must go get food now, I dont have anything besides milk orange juice and tortillas in the fridge…

    I just dont know if I should get some ramen from the convenience store or get something from Subways………

    Really hard choice but I think I’ll go with the ramen tbh a bit cheaper and tomorrow(Saturday btw) I usually order from elsewhere anyways so might as well save some money now

    1. Got the ramens and made them rn, made a whole mess cuz I didnt organize things properly and there was a spill but its all good now.

  17. Excellent thoughts on Indian foreign policy by an ex-Singapore FM (who is of Indian origin). A journalist attended the speech and summed up the key points:

    https://twitter.com/MattooShashank/status/1618264170797109252

    Basically, he argues you shouldn’t think about the current geopolitical situation as analogue to the Cold War. China is not against the current order on ideological grounds like the USSR and there is much greater interdependence between it and the US than there ever was for the USSR.

    The US is also going to become more transactional and allies of both countries more and more uneasy with both. See Europe’s complaint’s about the US industrial subsidies or the annoyance of Russia over China’s tepid support for its war.

    He argues that India is uniquely well-suited to this new ambiguous strategic environment and lists his reasons. Well-worth reading. The full speech can be viewed here:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usjY4IKxAeA

    It was presided over by Jaishankar himself and was sponsored by the Indian ministry of external affairs, so it’s as official as it gets. I’ve remarked in the last thread how impressed I am over India’s foreign policy in the last few years and this tells me that Jaishankar has a lot to do with it (which may seem obvious, but there are many foreign ministers with minimal influence over policy. Pakistan’s current one is a good example).

    1. Disagree about Europe’s complaints being of any significance. People need to have a historical perspective over these things. For instance, US and Europe engaged in a full blown trade war in the 60s. Look up the Chicken Tax which is also weirdly the reason why European car manufacturers don’t sell pick up trucks in the US.

      France left the NATO central command and kicked out US troops, also in the 1960s. Did any of these disputes cause Europe to become more independent? No. France quietly joined back the NATO central command just a few years after refusing to support the US invasion of Iraq. And now, Scholz is an old school commie who hates the US but despite being the literal Prime Minister of Germany, he cannot do anything. When US says send tanks to Ukraine, Germany will send tanks to Ukraine. Utimately Europeans know who runs the show and they will always fall in line.

      I don’t know if the current Cold War is like the previous one, but the main thing to keep in mind is that Americans perceive it to be like the old one and act like it’s the old one. There is a real momentum to reduce trade with China on the US side and while it can’t be cut overnight, things are moving in that direction.

      Also don’t think much of that manufacturing will move to India. The Americans had a delusional phase between 2010-2020 where they expected India will fall in line but I don’t think they expect that anymore. They would generally prefer manufacturing and services to move out of Asia in general and come back to the US and if not to at least the American Hemisphere.

  18. Modi talking about Tamil (whatever maybe the factuality of the eulogy) is causing extreme angst among all the intelligentsia – be it trads, raitas, V1s, “fact-checkers” or the leftwinger who is just looking for any lifesaver.

    Only one group kangs about language consistently (since 80-90 years) and has constructed a political pole around it. Modi is only registering his cognizance of it.

    Yadavs kang about “being Yadav”, V1s are slipping into a victim mentality, Kammas have an evolutionary foodfight with Kapus and Reddys, Lingayats want to be their own religion. Jat Sikhs look set to become the next Puritans and Mallu Muslims are forming the Fourth Caliphate.

    People asking “how Sanskrit not the oldest?” are not helping themselves. Virtually no other single group has created a political mobilisation around any IA language identity within India. So yes, Modi is recognizing Tamil as the “oldest language” just as Mulayam got the Padma Vibhushan for just “being Yadav”.

    I really hope some North Indian group starts kanging about Sanskrit or any Prakrit consistently. The only IA language being kanged about is Urdu which is not surprising for our Gangetic brethren.

  19. @Bhimrao “Pakistani Wedding dance Bollywood song performance”

    We didn’t appropriate Vedic culture.
    Bollywood represents hybrid of Islamo-Delhite (i.e. ‘late Mughal’) and 2 flavors of Western culture, colonial and modern. You just don’t realize it, that’s all.

    If Bollywood was even remotely Vedic, they would not cover the women’s breasts. Almost all the pre-Islamic sculptures, engravings and paintings show women without breast covering. (And men draped in chadors)

    The women of Bali are unaffected by Islamic or British influences and here’s how they dress – https://www.cardcow.com/images/set704/card00085_fr.jpg

    Your weddings are full of Islamic influences, e.g. men wearing Sherwani – where do you think these originate from?

    You have lost your original culture due to waves of invasions and colonialism. Few things that remain are Sansrkit chants during your events and things like Yoga. (Though Yoga itself was appropriated from IVC by Aryan elites.)

    1. “Bollywood represents hybrid of Islamo-Delhite (i.e. ‘late Mughal’) and 2 flavors of Western culture, colonial and modern.”
      Nope.

      “You just don’t realize it, that’s all.”
      Tu maane ya na maane dildara…

      “If Bollywood was even remotely Vedic, they would not cover the women’s breasts. Almost all the pre-Islamic sculptures, engravings and paintings show women without breast covering. (And men draped in chadors)”
      Where do I start here?

      “Your weddings are full of Islamic influences, e.g. men wearing Sherwani – where do you think these originate from?”
      Lucknow? what were you thinking?

      “You have lost your original culture due to waves of invasions and colonialism.”
      Me or you?

      “Few things that remain are Sansrkit chants during your events and things like Yoga.”
      This is endless…

      “(Though Yoga itself was appropriated from IVC by Aryan elites.)”
      🥱

    2. I’m no mullah, but I’m pretty sure your prophet didn’t ask brides to wear red, have a mehendi ceremoney, have a sangeet ceremony, have grooms arrive with a baraat and what not.

      Pretty clear who’s following whom.

      Funny how you can find tons of Pakistanis across the internet complaining about how Hindu their weddings are, and yet you get to read stuff like this on BP.

      1. @IsThisReal Prophet (pbuh) didn’t create Afghan, Turkic, Iranian, Central Asian, Sogdian or Khwarezmian culture.

        Most of what we call Indo-Islamic in South Asia is basically Iranic, Afghan and Central Asian culture.

        (Core Arab culture is Wahabi culture.)

        1. i agree on the first comment. ‘indo-islamic’ culture is persianate

          the second is way more complicated than you present. the arabs are mentioned as early as the Assyrians (800s BC) as people who occupy the liminal zone btwn the fertile crescent and arabia. i would breakdown arabs of arabia into 3 classes

          – the desert bedouin pastoralist (this is the stereotype most ppl have)

          – town/oasis dwellers of the desert (these the ppl of mecca as well as the origin of the sauds, who come from the nejd city of diriyah)

          – the inhabitants of the liminal zone that interacted extensively with ppl in the levant and mesopatamia. these were the arabs of petra and the nabateans, as well as the ancestors (at least in part or whole) of the roman emperors elagabalus and alexander severus and philip ‘the arab.’ they were in late antiquity the two polities run by the ghassanids and lakhimids in coordination with the byzantines and sassanians respectively

          (note that south arabia in Yemen was arabicized after Islam; it’s native language, some of which still exist, is closer to the ethiopian semitic languages)

          much of early Islamic corpus to me seems to really fall into #2 and #3, though ppl romanticize it as #1 (in the battle of yarmuk the arabs fought on foot, not on horses or camels). additionally, i am of the view that #3 is really the most important (the arabic in the koran is northern nabataean), but the fitna of the 680s integrated traditions from #2 into the corpus (i believe muhammad’s illiteracy is an aspect of the integration of #1; a sophisticated town-dwelling merchant is unlikely to be entirely illiterate).

          that being said, more concretely, many aspects of ‘islamic culture’ like legalism, madrassas and hadiths seem to be inherited from jewish/christian and later persian cultural traditions (no surprise that the foremost hadith compiler was from bukhara). the philosophical element still preserved in shia islam is hellenic.

          1. Very informative, thanks Razib. Origin of early Islam in or close to Levant is a very interesting theory.

        2. Wahabbi/Salafi culture originates in Najd and is inspired by Hanbali school.
          Hejaz was not Salafi until the 18th century a did not fully become one until the formation of Saudi Arabia.

          1. is it even salafi today? my understanding is just like shia in the east other forms of sunni islam exist in the hejaz (obv mecca, but even outside of it)

          2. I lived in Saudia Arabia for 2 years couple of decades ago. At the time, Riyadh ( centre of Najd) was the strictest when it came to morality policing.. full veil was strictly enforced for women (including face covering, beheading after Friday prayers etc etc), shops shut down at prayer time etc. hejaz region of Jeddah / Medina were quite relaxed in comparison, and so were the eastern regions of the Eastern Province ( lot of Shia/Irani influence)

            So undoubtedly salafi influence is less common in those regions even today. Although hard to tell. All Friday sermons are controlled by the monarchs, Imams appointed by government, Saudi government also demolished many important Islamic sites.. ( houses of Sahaba etc). My brother just came back from Madinah, he is a Salafi himself but even he was pissed off at Saudi govt at the wholesale destruction/ intentionally leaving these sites of Islamic heritage in disrepair.

          3. What are Saudi leaders justification of demolishing important religious sites? Is it like they are not that important. Or is it just that since they are ‘custodians of Islam’, no one can really challenge them?

            Something similar is happening in India as well. BJP has demolished various smaller temples to make way for the grand temple at Ayodhya. There has been opposition to this, and the opposition has tried its best to portray BJP as anti Hindu. But since the BJP/RSS is seen as Hindutva personified, there is hardly any traction for this theory.

          4. Saurav @
            Re Saudi indifference to religious sites around Mecca, I remember a nyt article 10 years back narrating an exchange:-
            Mecca reconstruction opposer:- when I circumambulating the kabbah, the mountains in the background look good/inspiring. This new high rise will block that view.
            Saudi official :- why are you looking at the mountains? Shouldn’t you focus on the kaabah?
            My tldr; is that Saudi interpretation of Islam does not believe in any veneration of physical objects. Very unlike the interpretation in PK, IN and BD where any damage to Holy book whether accidental or otherwise triggers riots.

          5. @Saurav

            Wahabism is extremely iconoclastic and it sees people venerating other places of religious significance as one of the biggest heresies. So their solution is to destroy them. The Saudi monarchy has a pact with Wahabi clerical elite to implement their version of Islam on the peninsula (which also suits them).

            They are not considered custodians of Islam, their title is custodians of the ‘two mosques’ (and they seem to limit themselves strictly to them). Islamic countries don’t say much because there is no religious sanctity to these other sites in scripture, but its undeniable that majority Muslims (in Saudi or outside it) still want to see them and protect them. But the Saudi ruling and clerical elite doesn’t care, they had money so they didn’t care about religious tourism to these other areas because most Muslims will travel to Makkah and Medina anyway. They seem to not care about anything other than the ‘two mosques’.

            I would say the current Wahabbi monarchies in Saudi/UAE/Kuwait do not really care about Islam either, and are on full path to Westernization. Their own populations usually don’t say much in opposition because they are taken care of quite well (from cradle to grave, free chidlcare, free healthcare, free education, low cost food, easy govt jobs etc etc) and their economic success silences any opposition.

            I would not draw a parallel between these monarchies and BJP’s Hindutva.. these monarchies are not seen by most Muslims as representative of Islam, quite the opposite as even Salafis outside GCC hate them, but iconoclasm is in Islam and they follow it to a tee and criticism is muted. I would say they operate more like Early Ummayads, where Arabs, particularly those of the Ummayad clan, reigned supreme, and did not necessarily follow any Islamic tenets but rather used religion to rule. There was an opposing undercurrent but initially it was suppressed because of early Ummayad successes.
            BJP has positioned itself as representative and champion of Hindus so the dynamic is different.

      2. “yet you get to read stuff like this on BP.”

        The whole thread started with a silly dance video someone posted, which was basically one more example of Indian dudes voracious consumption of ‘light skinned girl does something’.

        From there things devolved into the usual stale culture conversation that props up here all too often.

        One thing surprised me in the Bay Area. I expected to see a lot of South Indian tech dudes with light skinned arranged marriage wives. This hasnt been the case. Wives are usually on the darker and taller side. I guess when it actually comes to the big decisions, people select based on more practical considerations (education etc) than skin color.

        1. “Indian dudes voracious consumption of ‘light skinned girl does something’.”

          Nah bro, I deny this accusation.

          “From there things … all too often.”

          There is no conversation here. Pakistani bas pagal ho gaye hain…

          “One thing surprised … skin color.”
          (a) Its not like they have much choice. Marriage market here is fierce.
          (b) Happens often: the guy is the usual quiet, introvert Telugu, girl is NI (god forbid if Bengali or Delhi-maal) hustler, ends miserably. I never recommend Madraasis marry NI women, SIs are too nice to handle this rayta.

        2. (3) Importing arrange marriage bride from India: Situation is bad, you should listen to the negotiations. One of my Telugu mate talked to this girl from Vijawada on some Madraasi matrimony site, she had done some Masters from IIIT or something, girl droned on and on and on about her career goals and how she will need support after marriage to do her PhD, and then digging on and on and on about the GC status of my friend. He had many similar experiences.

          Telugu people are nice overall but very haraami when it comes to American visa. Plus I think they are sending over so many people that a lot of their not so bright people are already here and that is painting a easier story in homeland.

    3. Bali might not be representative especially of the Indian cultures that did not influence it. Also “yoga itself was appropriated from ivc by Aryan elites”. We don’t even know if ivc had yoga outside if some pretty weak evidence, yoga isn’t just some poses.

  20. Bhimrao – “Your weddings are full of Islamic influences, e.g. men wearing Sherwani – where do you think these originate from?”
    Lucknow? what were you thinking?

    Lol. It’s a Central Asian/Mughal bastardization of Chokha coats that are worn by people of Caucasus. Turks used to call it the dress of the Sherwani (people of Sherwan, South Caucasus).

    Bhimrao – “Where do I start here?”

    Nowhere. It’s going to be a tough job trying to find picture of pre-Islamic period paintings, idols or stone engravings of women with breasts covered. Maybe if you tried hard enough you will, but surely wasn’t the norm.

    1. North Indian high culture is basically Perso-Islamic with lot of local flavor. This escapes notice of many Hindu Nats because it’s so deeply embedded. The Western culture that is being adopted these days is easily identifiable because it’s recent and not that ingrained ( yet) but the Persianate-Islamic one flies under the radar of many. People wear Sherwani and suits to weddings but rarely does anyone wear Lungi as formal attire. Bollwyood just encapsulates the same.

      This is the real area why there is some similarity and familiarty amongst Pakistan/India ( common Muslim and British high culture and cuisine ). Not some ancient civilizational binding based on caste making everyone from Tamil Nadu to Punjab feel sem2sem.

      1. I would take it a step further and argue that Hindutva is nothing but European nationalism combined with Islamic religious brotherhood.

        Nothing wrong with that imo. Religious innovation/ Bidah is a good thing.

        1. Well that is quite obvious. The whole Hindu Rasthra rhetoric is like ripoff of Islamic Caliphate imposing Sharia. Anti Caste movement is the Ummah movement. And the justifications for all the nationalistic / racialist elements came from Europe.

          Hindutva is actually good for the Hindus since it is a modern movement that provides them with a strong united identity against Islamic and Christian/Western/united Chinese fronts in the global space.. but remains to be seen if it is going to actually accommodate various groups within India (Hindu or non) or create more enemies within.

        2. you guys are ignoring the role of the idea of christendom/west. i mean, the idea of the ummah exists, but when hindutva was emerging western civilization was at its overwhelming peak.

    2. Man forget breast covering even veils existed in pre Islamic era (called Avagunthana) this is where the modern Ghoonghat traditions come from.

    1. you need to chill out. your comments don’t exhibit an awesome mind with rich detailed understandings of things that might give you the slack i might otherwise give. i concede you aren’t a moron, so congratulations though.

      1. I totally wouldn’t want to be banned, but I don’t think you can ban me while I’m armed with VPN.

        1. right, but i can recognize your mix of midwittery and condescension. but i guess you’re OK since you are just a muslim version of the internet-hindus i have to tolerate here. by your very behavior and comportment you show your hand as to who is truly your kind 🙂

  22. They “look down” on us but on the same breath want us to be the sem2sem and part of “muh Greater india” bs “we are da same brozzer!!” you guys are seriously obsessed too ngl

    Lmao. What?
    You do realize that most proponents of ‘greater India’ call PAK/BAN a part of the country in an extremely condescending manner, right? It’s the furthest thing from whatever brotherhood impression you have. Why on earth would they “brozzer!!” muslims of all people? Lol. Some even straight up advocate war.

    Reminds me of this one-
    https://twitter.com/Anam_Iqbal_/status/1551208965484060673

    QTs to the tweet I posted earlier today are a pretty good reflection of the current sentiment. Vast majority wants to cut all ties, now more than ever. No interest in any brotherhood.
    ‘aman ki asha’ types can keep dreaming.

    Probably the only reason IND-BAN relations aren’t bad is because no terrorism. Modi still gets shat on regularly (and rightly so) for not fencing the entire border, and announcing new trains to connect both countries. Wonder how things will be post Hasina and Modi.

  23. Still rattled onto the next thread 😭

    ‘they want us to be sem2sem we know their agenda’, yeah what? that you are slightly ‘whiter’ on average and we feel inferior?
    sure that’s why I am including freaking Bangladesh & South India in this binding again and again.

    @IsThisReal is right. Obsessed with you and your modern nation state? Lmao if anything Pak/Ban are looked down upon. Though that’s another topic. But it’s a shithole v/s shithole comparison so even coming out on top doesn’t mean anything.

    It’s simple. There are clusters of sub-regions that are binded together and separated from others by atleast one factor. There is a Indian/call it whatever you want civilizational region. It’s real. I have provided the basis. You can’t for yours (except same taxation +army muhbritish effects)

    It’s so funny seeing you all not being able to answer that societal division point and trying to divert it. A continuous landmass showing such a unique system for societal division (not seen anywhere else) doesn’t prove anything? Lmfao lying again and again. Let me repeat, it’s because they are civilisationally connected.
    Prove otherwise and I will accept that I am wrong.

    sem2sem/hindutvavadi/truschke was right labels are all you can use.
    I have already said that just because you are part of a larger civilisation with other regions doesnt mean you are sem2sem with everything within. For instance, Normandy is different from Arpitania. Both still linguistically connected to form a larger nation. Again straw-manning and coping, that’s all you can do.
    It’s absolutely pathetic and hilarious at the same time.

    1. Here again the Indian goes off about muh skin tone muh I am whiter n shieet lmao I could not care less if Bangladeshis have dark skin tones similar to South Indians, we are still linguistically, culturally ethnically religiouslyand phenotypically different from them and Indians as a whole.

      India and Pakistan share those ethno-linguistic cultural ties(outside of the Balochis/Pahstuns) tho so I dc much for that

      Cannot believe they’re still going on about the historically inaccurate “civilization binding” crap again holy you’re like a broken clock.

      get a grip and let it go, we are not sem2sem

  25. all this pak/ind/bang stuff. i think the comparison to sri lanka is instructive. i’m leaving off what the instruction is, but i think it’s obvious

    1. I dont understand what u mean here tbh

      Sri Lanka is doing pretty splendid in many facets i.e. cleaner, better organized, better run, less pollution, safer,etc

      Think they’ll bounce back from their economic troubles fine but it may take some time idk

  26. Do you think the early Arab conquests were led by a faction within the Ghassanids/Lakhmids?

    sort of. the historical records are one-sided. but my moderate-confidence model

    – liminal ‘advanced’ arabs (‘saracens’) who espouse some sort of sectarian christianity at least nominally take over near east
    – their sectarian arab religion transforms into an ethnic religion and starts stripping elements that align with melkite christianity
    – fitna of 680s splits on regional lines, muhammad is retconned as a meccan/arabian figure rather than a prophet of northern arabia
    – 690s final split of arab muslims from their milieu as a distinct ethno-religion (ummayyads stopped worshipping in damascus church in their own alcove this decade; built masjid)
    – 700-750 the integration of non-arab clients into the new religion causes tension because of its originally christian universal element at tension with arab racial supremacism now
    – after 750, the abbassids overthrow the old arab ascendancy even if they are from it, and iranians start to reshape islam (many of these are central asian iranians, like al-bukhari) so it’s recognizable to what we know by 850 as the sunni-shia division starts to be starker

    1. Fascinating. This is quite similar to the model I heard on the History of Byzantium podcast, who btw might be an interesting guest for your Unsupervised Learning podcast.

      1. a prophet named muhammad is alluded to by an Armenian (?) priest writing in syria or something in the early 7th cent. i think it’s plausible there was a prophetic figure like this. these were common around 600, and there were lots of weird ‘heterodox’ religions (the mandaeans are still with us). and much of the sirah lit is pretty old. but a massive proportion of the ‘doctors of the ulema’ were of iranian ancestry (even if arabicized)…the arab muslims were just culturally hijacked by their far more numerous subjects after the abbasid revolution…

        (note that the sunni-shia thing really started heating up in the 9th century after the mu’tazila failure)

        1. If I remember correctly from that episode, that Armenian priest doesn’t actually name Muhammad, instead just mentioning a prophet of the Ishmaelites. Either way, a historical Muhammad doesn’t seem unlikely. I can imagine a scenario where disruption in trade due to the almost apocalyptic Byzantine-Sassanid War causes the merchant Muhammad to get religion and later start his own warband.

    2. I heard about a North Arabaian Muhammad idea from some Dan Gibson documentary a while back. I think it was called the sacred city.

  27. Victoria Nuland of “Fuck the EU” fame.
    She just visited SL again. Twice within a couple of months. The “color” revolution and protests were not successful enough I guess. So probably here to orchestrate a second round. (Was reasonably sucessful in Pakistan, Imran Khan got ousted)

    ====
    Nord Stream pipeline bombing:

    “Senator Cruz, like you, I am, and I think the administration is, very gratified to know that Nord Stream 2 is now, as you like to say, a hunk of metal at the bottom of the sea.

    I am surprised she did not try to implicate Russia

    Watch: Top US Official Hails Nord Stream 2 Sabotage In Senate Testimony
    https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/watch-top-us-official-hails-nord-stream-2-sabotage-senate-testimony

  28. The whole Hindu Rasthra rhetoric is like ripoff of Islamic Caliphate imposing Sharia. Anti Caste movement is the Ummah movement. And the justifications for all the nationalistic / racialist elements came from Europe.

    @S Qureishi

    This kind of pop-analysis is common among the left-wing commentariat. Easy to prepare and easy to consume and easy to poop out.

    Much of Hindutva’s counter-mobilisation has linkages with electoral compulsions. Many internal contradictions are only resolved by the exigencies of the ballot box.

    Unlike Sharia, Islamic Caliphates or European racialism – Hindutva has not jettisoned practicality in favor of absolutes. And stop with the platitudes to an imaginary Ummah. It only exists among Arabs. Subcontinental muslims are second-class.

    1. @Ugra “Subcontinental muslims are second-class.”

      This needs correction. Subcontinental muslims (and hindus) who do second-class jobs get second-class treatment.

      My maternal uncle holds senior position in a bank in KSA. This is his 4th year there. He’s well respected. Said the Arab colleagues are more cultured than Indians.

      But then how’s it any different from Pakistan or India? We treat our low class labor like shit. Are we really better than Arabs?

      1. I have a few family members, mostly doctors who worked in the Saudi for decades and are well respected names in their local area (even got awards) one was offered citizenship as well. A lot of Indian (Hindu) doctors are also well respected and general. It seems like the respect is given by your position and profession more than it is by your ethnicity or race.

    3. Ugra,

      I urge you and the other Indians here to stop always projecting your insecurities on to Muslims. I’ve said this before as well but you guys feel a certain way about Muslims and project your casteist worldviews on to us as a result. It doesn’t work like that.

      As a Bangladeshi Muslim currently in university, I have not seen or experienced that whatsoever from them. We have a Muslim Student Association(pretty sure all unis in Canada do) and many of the leadership are Bangladeshi Muslims and Indian Muslims and Arab Muslims and we all get along very well. My first or one of my first friends here was an Arab Muslim. My father also has good friends and colleagues working in the UAE Qatar Arabia etc as middle class and above professionals and they also have nothing bad to say and love the country and live great lives in great places. Your high caste low caste bs dichotomy doesn’t exist, it’s merely an economic one with them mistreating lower economic class workers of any race or background or religion badly.

      Also, judging by your comments, you are a South Indians. Are you really in the position to be dictating who is 2nd class or not when your own North Indian counterparts think you of the same way? Just look at what Saurav or something has to say about Dravidians and all the likes he gets in his comments. Also, you Hindus in India seem to treat Muslim Indians the same way as well as Hindu Dalits.

      2. @PencilMan @S Qureishi

        Bangladeshis or Pakistanis or Indians (even when they are Muslims) are not offered a standardized shot at citizenship in GCC states. This is a fact. Arabs draw a clear line in the sand.

        You can’t see it. Or pretend not to see it.

          1. @Razib

            I read that link with interest. Emiratis have indeed broken a watertight door. But two things – this is very recent (2021) and the clauses are all heavily grandfathered. Have to see how things are 5 years down the line.

            Just take a look at Sweden – political atmosphere shifted into right wing after barely 10 years of uncontrolled migration.

            With as much emphasis as possible, Hindutva and other revanchist movements within India operate in much more contested space than either the Muslim Brotherhood or the European right wing.

        2. Ugra,

          I don’t see what’s wrong with that? Why single out subcontinentals? The same rules apply for any other ethnicity as well, they’re not going to get citizenship as well and plus some of them are opening up routes to citizenship for everyone, so you’re wrong.

          They’re putting their people ahead and keeping their interests in mind but that doesn’t mean they hate other folks. One of my dad’s friends from his college days (Bangladeshi) works as a higher up/director at an airlines/consultancy(i forget) firm there and he will never get citizenship but he makes good money, has a great house and is well-respected by his colleagues, Arab and otherwise.

          It’s socioeconomic discrimination towards low earning labourer folks of any background be they Paki Bangladeshi Indian or Filipino Indonesian Afghan Egyptian etc

  30. It only exists among Arabs. Subcontinental muslims are second-class.

    the first is false. the second is kind of true, though it’s complicated by gulf arab wealth (the gulf arabs and arabians themselves were not thought of highly by the arabs of cairo or bagdhad).

    in the multiethnic masjids i grew up in upstate NY it was

    – turks, arabs, most standing as Muslims (no Iranians cuz shia), ran the masjid
    – subcontinental doctors funded it, despite being socially second class citizens
    – black converts ppl were happy to have to show antiracist, but socially separate, and often did more menial things like drive buses
    – malays, etc., kept to themselves, tho seemed to mix more with subcontinental than middle eastern ppl

    (most of the Pakistanis were mohjajirs)

  31. That seems quite anecdotal

    The Turks would usually avoid Arabic imams because they dislike Salafism and almost all Arab imams are Salafis. Only time I have seen Turks and Arabs under same mosque is in a Pakistani run mosque.

    Arabs (Egyptian, Syrian, Khaleeji) actually cluster in mosques more with Black Africans (Sudanese, Somalians). Most Somali and Sudanese mosques are either Salafi or Hanbali/Shafi which are mazhabs that are closer to Salafism. My niece and nephew go to a Islamic school (usually set up in or near mosques), and it’s run by both black and arab salafi muslims, and the students are also mixed arab and black africans (don’t see many Pakistanis there). I don’t really see a division or hierarchy there so the race argument against blacks is moot. (If anyone actually wants to avoid black people for whatever reason, they would avoid an Arab Salafi mosque.) Alternatively my cousin’s daughter goes to a Islamic school, (mosque is run by Pakistanis) and the student population there is mixed between Pakistani, Afghans, Indians, Turks, Uzbeks and even a few Iraqi Arabs. What is common here is these countries are all Hanafi majority. There is no hierarchy here either.

    Indian Hindus have an inferiority complex vis a vis the west and islam. they also see the world in a divided classist way (own experience of the caste system). Projecting that onto calling S.Asian muslims second class muslims is a common jibe.

    The economic state of the country immigrants plays a big role in social acceptance of that group in the host country.

    1. The Turks would usually avoid Arabic imams because they dislike Salafism and almost all Arab imams are Salafis. Only time I have seen Turks and Arabs under same mosque is in a Pakistani run mosque.

      this is upstate NY in the 1980s. really no choice

      also, it seems retarded to say arab imams are salafi. most of the arab world is not salafi. are the only arabs you run into gulf-funded?

      ( al-azhar teaches all 4 schools of sunni jurisprudence, wtf are you talking about?)

      1. Razib

        Most Pakistanis are barelvi but 90% of the mosques run by Pakistanis you see in the west are Deobandi run. Infact even inside Pakistan, Deobandi madrassahs outnumber Barelvi ones. Deobandis got more funding and are more organized. Similarly Salafis got a lot of funding from Gulf Arab states and rich private donors in the Arab world, they are the most organized and their imams are most common in Arab world. Saudi Arabia and Qatar gives away lot of scholarships to Salafi students who become preachers and trainers. Half the youtube preachers in english are Salafi.

        You won’t really know which mosque is what sunni denomination unless you really regularly attend prayers in different masjids. Minor ritual differences during prayer or just listen to friday sermon and pickup easily which sect the imam belongs too. Also for many hanafis, the difference between salafi and hanbali is not even technical, they are both sides of the same coin. And Shafism is not far behind.

        Also just to note, al azhar can teach all four madhabs but hanafi mazhab is not common in Arabia (except Iraq) or East Africa.

    2. Indian Hindus have an inferiority complex vis a vis the west and islam.

      nice to see you are an expert on hindus.

      also, nice to see all the hindus here who are experts on islam.

      nice to see bangladeshis and Pakistanis who are experts on india and vice versa.

      you are all so full of bullshit, i am 100% sure you are subcontinental males.

    3. I don’t get why Ugra shits on Arabs all the time.

      —

      I or anyone else don’t shit on Tamils for race or caste. We shit on them for being assholes. Qureshi and his snide ways…

      —

      Anything India :- Casteism, Well then anything Pakistan :- Casteism and inbreeding.

      Projecting ___ onto calling ‘Indian Hindus have an inferiority complex vis a vis the west and islam.’ ___ is a common Pakistani jibe.

      —

      EVERYONE is nice to everyone else in US and Canada.

      Arabs, Turks, and Iranians in the US are a pretty chill people. Filter works well here. But the usual suspects on this thread are expectedly lying about the absence of racial issues. I can post so much proof, but frankly I don’t give a shit about Arabs or Turks. It is revealing to see Bengalis who were ass fucked by Punjabis say, ‘…project your casteist worldviews on to us as a result. It doesn’t work like that.’ LoL yeah read Sir Syed’s views on Bengalis…

      Some thoughts:
      1) UAE is a very good place to live. Know Indian doctor there who gets USD 53K in housing allowance alone, rents a beach facing home, drives a fancy German car. People are free to do whatever just don’t break traffic laws.
      2) Saudi and Qatar can be retarded. Don’t let people celebrate their festivals but hypocrites will fight to carry their garden umbrellas… ahem wives in the west. I consider myself too talented to put up with their shit, would never go there, these countries will open up or become like Samarkand and Bukhara. Knew folks who work for Aramco, some who teach in Indian schools there. Not bad in practice as long as you know what you are getting into.
      3) Really hateful Hindus should hope things don’t reform rather than keep poking their nose. If garden umbrellas don’t have it good then why are you so upset? it’s not your garden umbrella. Set your own house in order first.

      1. There goes the Indian inferiority complex again. Explain to me how the 1971 war has any relevance to the original comment about “subcontinental muslims are 2nd class in the eyes of arabs”? This is the most obvious case of projection considering that comes from a need to compensate for something. you’re literally Bihari bro lmao people use your community as a literal slur😂

        muh 1971 Hindus will bring up the most irrelevant shit out of nowhere to cope lol.

        Who tf is a Sir Syed? Anyways, did he say something bad about Bengalis? Am I supposed to give a fuck, Mr. Bihari?

        Compare yourselves with the Congolese or the other Africans, that’s about where Bihar stands. Stop acting all high and mighty lmao

      2. “It is revealing to see Bengalis who were ass fucked by Punjabis say”

        Razib, how does this guy not get banned but I can’t call him a dirty streetshitting pajeet without you giving me a hard warning? This guy is some salty Bihari retard who feels inferior because his people are a laughingstock within India and wants to take it out on us lmao they have the same HDI as the poorest African nations.

        Like this retard brough up a war from 50 years ago between South Asian nations when the topic was about “subcontinental muslims are 2nd class (apparently) to MiddleEasterners”

        Anyways on that note, I’ve had positive experiences with Pakis irl. It’s the ones online(mainly from the UK) that are annoying otherwise 2 of my closest friends are Punjabis/Sindhis. Even a Paki cab driver I took once said that some of his closest friends were Bangladeshis and he was like my dad’s age so old gen. Most don’t care about what the military did, something that happened 51 years ago but clearly you Baljeet ass mofos do. Ofc there’s plenty of people who talk shit from both sides tho lmao

        1. because you drag the overall conversation down with a lot of insulting comments and retarded seeming “hahas”. it’s not good for anyone, but you are too immature to understand this.

          pretty tolerant on the open threads since i don’t monitor but jesus i’m going to have to shut this down soon at this rate…

          i don’t see the ass-fucked part being offensive btw. they murdered and raped a lot of bengalis, right? what’s ass-fucking next to that?

          1. Razib,

            the salient aspect of this is the vulgarity of the comment(s) the streetshitting Bihari posted. You’ve reprimanded me for similar reasons in the past when I’ve used “offensive” language and wording but you didn’t do it in his case and it’s left quite a bitter aftertaste.

            Also, extending your logic here a bit, a lot of Indians have names that end with “eet” or “esh” and the India open defecation rate is pretty high. Should be fine then

      3. >EVERYONE is nice to everyone else in US and Canada.
        I know Arabs and Pakistanis intermarry (too many examples to list here), my cousin married Turkish, my brother married a Caucasian, there are just so many examples I can you within my immediate circle. There are fewer Shia-Sunni marriages than there are inter-race marriages. But what more proof do you want than that? If you want to find racism, yeah sure, everyone is racist and South Asians are even bigger racists because they even have caste/tribe/clan which they hold to relatively stronger than most other areas of the world. But if someone’s first reaction to facing racism is to believe their entire group is considered second class, then that’s an issue with you guys, it’s projection.

        >Anything India :- Casteism, Well then anything Pakistan :- Casteism and inbreeding.

        Yes Pakistan’s problems are partly because of cousin marriages. Not because some stupid low IQ theory, it’s simply because lack of intratribal marriages gives strength to tribal politics and difficulty in doing meaningful reforms.

  32. Razib,

    I respect you for being a well read man, and somewhat accomplished scholar albeit from a field that I do not consider important nor find interesting.

    But know that other people have accomplishments too.

    I try to be respectful here and put up with your tantrums and diktats because at the end of the day this blog is your kingdom.

    But repeatedly censoring people’s replies while letting your rabid Bangladeshi dog off the leash all the time is not cool. I don’t agree with this. Signing off.

    Saurav, Prats, thewarlock: maje karo veere, wish you well.

    1. you weren’t censored. you need to be less conspiratorial, it was in the moderating queue (probably because you are posting a lot).

      pencilman does need to behave better.

      1. this assertion that there are these awesome incredibly smart contributors to this comment section reminds me of the russell brand joke that it’s not a good sign when you have to convince someone you are good-looking.

        if you are a very bright person it shouldn’t be hard to drop into these comments, offer up dense data-packed comments that cite and allude to things that add value. do so, and I’ll respect you. otherwise, I’ll think you should shut up.

        to give a concrete example you asserted that the reason Iranians rebelled against the abassids is that they disliked taxes and oppression form the arabs. this is a generic answer. every premodern elite oppressed the people they ruled. that’s a constant. what changes to trigger rebellions?

        so an answer that might impress me with knowledge rather than rhetorical posturing is an exogenous environmental shock like the one that triggered the overthrow of wang mang and his stillborn dynasty. or, you might point allude in 9th and 10th century Iran to Patricia crone’s work in *The Nativist Prophets of Early Islamic Iran: Rural Revolt and Local Zoroastrianism* which illustrate that the changes in rural regions that included the emergence of ghulat Islamic movements drawing from Zoroastrianism.

        some midwits might object “oh you don’t need to know this stuff, blah blah blah.” this was scorpioneater’s reaction when i pointed out his midwit observations were just wrong, but he refused to dig any deeper than where he was (he works in software, why should he read history? but then he shouldn’t comment). you can offer generic conjectures and bland and vague assertions without density and detail, but they don’t really add to the discussion or elevate anyone. a lot of the assertions i see on this weblog are from people who want to make generalities based on their intuition but no one knows who you are and know cares who you are.

        to give an example, someone who knows about early hindutva could actually explore the relationship between it and Islamic vs. christian stimulus. instead, you just get ppl making bland assertions, but hindu nationalism emerged at a time when both islam and Christianity were undergoing reformist/revivalist movements in different ways.

        now i have to go back to working on real stuff, bbl and perhaps just going to ban a few ppl if i feel like it.

    2. Overall agree with Bhimrao (except the Bangladeshi dog part). Razib is very condescending towards everyone here without realizing many of us as H1b, doctors, engineers and useful PhDs contribute more to humanity than he does.

      1. Razib is the only one putting his public name on this blog. I can only imagine the unsavoury attention that this relative FoS gets him.
        Privilege depends on the amount of risk one takes.

        1. Razib is the only one putting his public name on this blog.

          I do on and off and maybe Quershi is his real name. Even mu handle is unique and has been in use since the 1988 when I first went to the US as a grad student. 8 bit handle for email, first initial and 7 letters from last name

          However, I can afford to be quite open about Identity. A nobody jungle bunny whose days of seeking a job are long gone. So dont need to worry about “fact checkers” cancelling me.

      2. oh, great anonymous contributor to the world, please note that your comments indicate you have an IQ of `115. not worth engaging with. if you want to be respected by me, add some value. the tone of your comment makes me want to block you, if you really were a great contributor you wouldn’t allude to it 🙂 you would be it.

        i run this blog so am insulting quite often, but you also see periodically i stop engaging in posturing rhetoric, which is what you and what your interlocuters do, and actually drop some knowledge in. if you did that, instead of speculating based on nothing, it would improve the comments (warlock for example does do that quite often and has for many years; perhaps i should bow down before his awesome knowledge because he’s a doctor! [narrator: only morons think that being a doctor is super impressive, no offense warlock and all the other doctors who read this blog ;])

        finally, i run this blog. I’ll ban who i want and this discussion is theoretical. you have no influence or pull or say.

        1. finally, i’ll note i’ve run blogs on the internet for 20 years (as a hobby). and i’ve always acted like this. and i’ve always had ppl say “do you know i have a PhD from Stanford!” (this was a real person)

          here’s the thing: you are reading my blog, i am not reading your blog. so i don’t care, you, like tens of millions of others over the last few decades, choose to read my thoughts or read platforms i host. i don’t read you, and i don’t know you. i don’t care what your credentials are. i know many, many, credentialed people (look at this moron: https://mobile.twitter.com/askdrfatima), and i know people who are very successful in tech being HS dropouts. those focused on credentials are stupid. i’ve never met a theoretical physicist (my brother is one) who has EVER bragged about their credential. they are smart. that is all that matters. you talk to them, you know they are smart.

  33. Also, extending your logic here a bit, a lot of Indians have names that end with “eet” or “esh” and the India open defecation rate is pretty high. Should be fine then

    this blog is like the 8th priority in my day to day decision making (behind family, startup, substack, friends, etc. etc.)

    don’t argue with me and don’t annoy me. you aren’t abraham haggling with god about sodom. I’ll burn it down if i want.

  34. Everyone needs to just be nicer to one another. And I’m not acting like I’ve been the nicest person. I’ve been mean before too. But the level of cordialness has had a recent steep drop off. This happens from time to time. But I think it’s best, if people could say their opinions without personal insults or openly racial/nationality/religious demeaning statements. Like I get it. People can say whatever they want. That’s true. But some stuff doesn’t contribute to discourse at all and is just inflammatory. I myself will try to practice what I’m preaching.

    1. +1.
      My thinking re engaging in this blog is that I get put my 2 cent perspective which differs from msm in an anonymous way. Low chance it has any impact. But it is more than zero.
      If ppl want to highlight the achievements of their group/community/caste/ethnicity, paste data and/or examples. Same goes with pushing back unfair characterization of your in-group.
      Otherwise ppl takes things personally here.

        1. I meant to say that my contribution to this blog has low chances of persuading minds.
          This blog has had traction since you became well known on twtr and iirc nyt ran a piece on you.

          2. the blog has traction because we have kept it going (it was cofounded by me and zach latif). there was a time btwn 2012 and 2017 i didn’t really do much here and omar ali kept it going

  36. People suffer a lot in asserting supremacy or shitting down on others. They cant put across strengths and weaknesses and leave it there. And try to make their side better on that knowledge they now possess.

  37. @Razib very typical of you to steer any discussion with a poster you don’t like towards IQ comparison.. I don’t remember mentioning anything about IQ, all I said is that most of the posters here (whatever IQ) are h1b/engineers/doctors/useful PhDs who contribute to society more than you do, and consequently earn way more than you. So maybe consider toning down the condescending attitude.

    1. Lol@ I am so and so. Treat me with respect even though I might be wrong. Very desi 😂.

    2. There’s no good objective way to compare societal contributions well, unless the difference is absolutely massive. That too, we all work together. Some jobs help more directly. Some are scalable. Some are not.

      A financier who funds a Doctors without Borders mission isn’t worth all the doctors who participate combined. It’s a chain. And all parts are replaceable. Everyone has to work together to accomplish the task.

      Razib, from reading a lot of his work and seeing the BS he has put up with in his life with media mistreatment, seems to be an honorable guy who stands for truth and seeks to educate others about the truth. He offers a ton of free content to do so. He is loyal to his friends. Just the way he speaks glowlingly about his kids’ achievements and promise and seeks to defend them against BS DEI holding them back is admirable.

      And frankly, we don’t know his net worth. His substack alone makes him quite rich. His startup could be booming for all we know.

      Regardless, even if he were pauper, I would still respect him. He is a good person who dispenses a lot of wisdom at the intersection of science and history. He is loyal to his friends and family.
      Can he be a bit abrasive in his domain, sure. But I know only a fraction of the BS he has put up with. And I still get it. He gives a lot out for free. He is willing to listen to counterpoint. He just asks for facts and nuance rather than intuitive theories that offer nothing more than pretty figurines assembled from pieces of motivated reasoning.

      Am I being deferential here? Sure. But I agree that he has forgotten more than I know, when it comes to much of the stuff discussed here. If he calls me an idiot about a lot of this stuff, he is probably correct. Compared to him, on many of these topics, I am. Does that mean I don’t try to offer counterpoint? I do. But I stick to a paradigm. I try to cite facts, and I am clear when I am using anecdote.

      Have I myself behaved badly on here before? Sure. But I’m trying to rectify that too. Regardless, I am all for burying any hatchet. There’s no point in these types of personalized attacks.

      And maybe you’re right J Khan. Perhaps you are a genius and contributing a lot. Maybe Razib isn’t worth your time. Then leave here. If you think the rules are unfair. Start something better.

      1. i appreciate the comment warlock. some day you will perhaps settle down and have children you don’t waste your time commenting here 😉

        as for who i am, and what i’m proud of. i’m the father of 3 beautiful children, and i never turn on my friends. the rest is commentary, and ppl can see that commentary in tens of millions of words i’ve put on the internet for free up until 2020. if ppl think you can do better, do so. there are those who do, and i really enjoy reading what they write. i prefer reading to writing tbh, which is why i never became a full-time writer and continue to work in biotech. feels more ‘natural’ to me.

        (also, the fixation on credentials to me is a good tell that someone doesn’t really know the point of what those credentials are supposed to tell you about someone’s abilities)

    3. > earn way more than you

      I would be highly skeptical of this. I think Razib’s substack alone probably brings him more moolah than many folks here.

      Also, picking a personal fight with the owner of the blog you’re on is rarely an intelligent move, so your claim of being very smart is self-refuting.

      1. i make OK money. far less than some ppl i have met through this blog who are senior level FAANG (OK, more FANG) employees. but as someone who has socialized with these people, and who has pitched to (to raise) and presented at the houses of billionaires who all of you know, it’s the true sign of a retard to think that money is the measure of the worth of one’s opinion. or perhaps it’s a cultural difference, idk. we americans care about money a lot, but that’s because we like to buy things. rich peoples’ opinions are not more worthy. this is clear from the very rich ppl who subscribe to my substack to read my opinions (i am always polite to billionaires, but i do think they appreciate that i don’t kiss their asses about their opinions and thoughts; they know you’re talking to them for their $ not their ideas).

  38. i banned j khan. he is trying to evade, but now all his comments go into mod queue. some of you seem to think i’m ‘censoring you’ when this happens but it happens if you post too much or your IP is not recognized. most of the time i let comments go through if they aren’t too racist or vulgar. but i am going to censor j khan because i think he’s stupid AND without humility about it. unless he writes something that is intellectual awesome i’m not going to be approving 🙂

    pencilman, if you are an adult, comment like one. you tend to go off like a tween when ppl prod you and bring down these comments in quality. i’m now tired of this.

    i will go back to just approving comments in mod queue on this open thread now and no longer participate (other shit to do)

  39. someone seems unaware that i can see every comment that goes into moderation queue. is he aware of how this works? half a dozen comments, some of them long, and all going into trash. but he keeps commenting. seem intelligent behavior to me…

  40. I think it will be unfortunate if some old contributors stop contributing just because of something minor like this

    1. well, when zach’s bipolar friend kabir (he was literally bipolar with admitted mental issues) was shitting all over this place ppl were leaving. had to ban him.

  41. Can’t say I miss Khan, he came across as a thin-skinned tard intent to push the boundaries as much as possible by constantly insulting Razib. Like, if you’re that smart, why would you do that?

    A big problem of this blog is that there is too much “diaspora nationalism”. It manifests itself in real life, too.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11689339/Indian-brawl-erupts-Melbournes-Fed-Square-Sikh-attacking-Hindu-nationalists.html

    I always felt the few contributors who actually live in the subcontinent have been calmer and more interesting. When people are abroad, they feel alienated so start to compensate by LARPing as nationalists online. It’s pathetic.

  42. I think Pakistan retains important social and familial aspects of its Hindu past, perhaps even better than India. Women sharing a home with their mother-in-laws is unheard of in the rest of the Muslim world, be it Arabia, Turkey, Iran or Indonesia.

    Two thirds of Pakistani households have more than 6 members, as compared to only a quarter in India. Average household size in Pakistan exceeds India by almost 2.5. Joint families with multiple brothers and parents living in the same home is still the overwhelming norm in Pakistan, but such arrangements have declined in India.

    Like India, this might change with higher levels of female literacy.

    1. >Women sharing a home with their mother-in-laws is unheard of in the rest of the Muslim world, be it Arabia, Turkey, Iran or Indonesia.

      Women sharing a home with their mother-in-laws- is quite common throughout Afghanistan, Iran, Central Asia, the Caucuses, Turkey and even in most Arab countries outside the peninsula. There is absolutely nothing special or unique about the Pakistani familial structure. Islamically, the brother in law is not considered a ‘mahram’ and purdah is enjoined on women from their BIL, but this factor is usually ignored.

      1. “purdah is enjoined on women from their BIL, but this factor is usually ignored.”

        Yes, and it is practices like these that make Pakistanis ‘less Muslim’ in the eyes of the Arabs 😉

        1. //Yes, and it is practices like these that make Pakistanis ‘less Muslim’ in the eyes of the Arabs 😉 //

          By this logic, everyone outside Najd is a ‘lesser’ Muslim. I mean I can flip the switch and say that stopping women from driving is less Muslim (literally the wife of Prophet Muhammad led men into war on her camel). But we don’t do stupid shit like that, and I don’t think the Arabs do that either.

          Once again, when confronted with facts, Indian Hindus go about on how S. Asian Muslims are less Muslims in the eyes of the Arabs. Projecting inferiority complex. I know many think Kabah is a Shiv temple and Zeus Indira sem2sem, but let’s keep that to fantasy land. Not everything is inherited from Hinduism.

          1. Pakistanis live in joint families, and Arabs, Turks and Indonesians dont. Do your research.

            “everyone outside Najd is a ‘lesser’ Muslim”

            I think there is a lot of evidence to indicate that Saudi Muslims think this way.

            Not sure what you are going on about in the rest of the comment. Btw, Zeus and Indra do have common origins and similarities, but their differences are far, far more important.

          2. arab muslims DO view themselves as more/authentic/authoritative Muslims. why are you bullshitting about this? i’ve been in masjids where arab guest speakers haranged the nonarabs for not knowing the ‘language of god.’

            that being said, this is rank chauvinism and has minimal support in the hadiths and honestly Islamic history, so it’s easy to ignore. the only thing distorting the issue is gulf arab $ has made ppl dance to their tune…

          3. This is a classic case of confusing religion with race.

            Many Saudis don’t even consider their own Arab Shia compatriots as Muslim, let alone ”lesser muslims”;. This is because Salafism is puritan ideology which has positioned itself against all other schools of Islamic jurisprudence and thought. From Turkey to South Asia, from Egypt to Morocca, all Sufi inspired muslim beliefs (which is like all Islam outside Najd) are considered heretic, on a scale of mild to extreme. It’s not an ‘Arab thing’, it’s a Salafi thing. You mistake Salafi puritanism with Arab racism or some form of Muslim hierarchy. If you don’t believe me, consider the fact that Qatar invited Zakar Naik (an Indian Salafi preacher) to their worldcup ceremony and hosted him as cheif guest. They could have invited anyone of the numerous Arab Salafi clerics that are famous these days.. but nope. Didnt even make any monetary sense since he was a fugutive in India.

            As for your jibe that Arabs look down on South Asians, this is mostly socio economic. They also look down on everyone else that is there doing menial jobs, Afghans, Phillipinos, Egyptians etc. When 90% of the people from a region are doing menial blue collar labour jobs, have low literacy and education, over whom they have quite a bit of power, they will naturally start to feel superior to them. The British didn’t look down on Indians or Indian culture until they started acquiring more power over them.

          4. Razib

            The recitation of the Quran is an essential part of Islam (every Islamic sect emphasizes it). Many non-Arabic speakers do it with bad pronunciation. Several Arabic words are guttural and Indo Aryan or Turkick language speakers don’t pronounce them properly, which can change the meaning of the entire word.
            It is not uncommon for imams to emphasize to learn proper Arabic talaffuz/Tajweed in sermons, and it’s usually non-Arab imams that lecture most about it because they know their audience

          5. Qureshi@,
            curious to know how has the perception of sanctity of marriage changed in PK over the years. I know IK used to harangue that PK has better family values and lower divorce rates. But he himself has divorced and married >3 times. Further many in his inner circle have married each other’s wives (after divorce obv.)
            afaik polygamy was/is socially acceptable. But has the avg number of husbands for a woman increased in recent decades?

          6. @bhumiputra

            divorce rates increase when women work, earn and are generally independent, so have less need for a provider husband, and less tolerance for family drama. Anecdotaly, seen less than 5% divorce rate in last generation, probably 15-20% in this generation. Several cousins and friends of mine divorced, although this usually happens within first year or so. Very rarely do I see 5 year + marriages end in divorce, even in this gen.

            Polygamy is still very uncommon although everyone knows that one guy who has taken a second wife. previous gen would usually justify it if the first wife was barren, but these days some guys who are successful and religious would take on a second wife without excuse. still very rare

            Imran Khan is a bit of a hypocrite though. I think he is religious in the sense that it defines his identity, but he is not gonna follow most religious commandments to a tee. Will just justify his personal ‘sins’ by saying its private matter and say Islam tells you to keep one’s private sins hidden. he gets away with this reasoning. mostly.

          7. Razib,

            The local mosque of my area was owned and run by Bangladeshi diaspora folks. We got some African Muslim guy, a Bangladeshi imam and had regular guest speakers from other places who were Jordanian or Lebanese or Iranian and stuff. I used to attend these weekly events (they used to be on Saturday/Sundays) when I was younger. A Jordanian old man used to come frequently, he was pretty chill. Actually, all the guest speakers were pretty cool. During Ramadan me and my friends would drop by for iftar, it was pretty fun. Ramadan they’d get even more people from all sorts of places.

            Pretty big mosque. The Bangladeshi community purchased this property in 2008 when it was a night club and turned it into a mosque.

  43. The site here offers me two things, ideas and data that go counter to my views, which is actively helpful. And putting my 2 cents out there for the world to see when i cant keep quiet .I make generalities, but try to stick to only a certain kinds of generalities based on certain principles. That way, i am imposing on myself a certain kind of rules. much like in physics with angular momentum being conserved and so on. And I am looking for ideas that counter my own ideas or data that goes against it. Andyou come for a certain things of value, that is the end of the story for me.

  44. wow. six long comments in the mod list from the super rich super genius who i banned 🙂 he’s more persistent than the racist jat teenagers.

  45. This is a classic case of confusing religion with race.

    no, your whole comment assumes i’m more ignorant than you think. the salafis my family interacted with were the LEAST racist (but most religionist?) of the arabs.

    the racism/religious chauvnanism of arabs comes from ‘moderate Muslims,’ like ppl in Lebanon, syria, Iraq and egypt. these are the centers of islam until relatively recently in MENA (sunni) anyway.

    you keep confusing what i’m trying to say. don’t think comments are best to get across (also, my experiences are mostly american, what are your? perhaps it’s different elsewhere, idk)

    1. that reply was for vikram though

      moderate racism exists everywhere though. i dont think its arab specific. we pakistanis are quite racist as well. honestly, lot of people in my family have worked and lived extensive in the gulf among khaleejis, absolutely none of them really have anything admirable to say about the khaleeji arabs, they considered them dumb and lazy, lacking culture. I always disagree with them with such assessments because the GCC arabs have achieved overall success when many others in the same position have failed, even if that success is built upon cheap labor and shoddy human rights.

      but point is, racism exists and every group is racist to a point. however issues about ”lesser muslim” and ”correct islam” is almost always related to salafism, they are the most puritan.

      1. ‘however issues about ”lesser muslim” and ”correct islam” is almost always related to salafism,’

        Was it the same case b/w East and West Pakistanis ?

        2. Flat out racism. Ayub Khan or Yahya Khan were not practicing any form of Islam when womanizing, drinking alcohol, getting chummy with the Americans or locking up Islamic clerics in jail. Their comments on Bengalis not giving up ‘Hindu traditions’ has more to do with racism than anything else. They were quite high on the British martial race theories.

          1. Race doesn’t even have to be a thing in S Asia for groups to genocide one another. Look at Punjab during partition. But yeah, for Bengal, it was both, since Hindus were disproportionately targeted.

      2. racism does exist everywhere. *but the details differ*

        eg arab melodramas have plotlines of tall blonde blue-eyed European mean converting and marrying muslim women. never heard of case where indian were treated like this.

        it’s not just a salafi issue. you’re not going to convince me because i’ve actually talked to arabs from places like egypt who are not salafi (and who drink) who are candid about this.

        re: not speaking Arabic. it was an arab ulem who visited and he wanted us to understand his lecture in Arabic. it wasn’t the koran. you shouldn’t connect the dots all the time, half the time you misunderstand me. though i guess for you i should be more explicit about everything because this keeps happening over and over

        1. skin color racism has always been present in the medieval era, im not denying that at all. for example, Ibn Khaldun had some weird racist views on black african. Indians were darker so naturally they will too be singled out.

          infact it’s even found during the prophetic era of islam, and Muhammad particularly rebuked racism against blacks, the following incident is narrated in both Saheeh Bukhari and Muslim hadiths:

          “Once, while his Companions got together in a gathering and the Prophet s had yet to come, Khalid B. Al-Walid, Abdurrahmann B. Auf, Bilal B. Abi Rabah, and Abu Dharr were among those in attendance. The only dark skinned companion present was Bilal the Abyssinian. Abu Dharr began speaking, and Bilal corrected him. Abu Dharr exclaimed out of anger, “Even you, O son of a black woman, try to correct me?” Bilal got up, visibly upset at what was said, and said: “By Allah, I will report you to the Prophet.” He went to him and informed him of what was said and the Prophet became very angry.

          Abu Dharr rushed to meet the Prophet and said “Peace be upon you, O Prophet of Allah.” He continued, “I am not sure if he responded to my greeting due to his extreme anger.” Then he said: “O Abu Dharr! Have you ridiculed him on account of his mother? Indeed you are a man in whom there remain traits of the pre-Islamic era!” Abu Dharr wept and said: “O Messenger of Allah, ask Allah to forgive me.” He left the Masjid weeping and when he saw Bilal, he put his head on the ground and said to Bilal, “O Bilal, I will not move from my position till you put your foot on my head. You are the honorable and I am the disgraced.” Bilal wept, and kissed the cheek of Abu Dharr and said: “A face that has prostrated to Allah is not to be stepped on—rather, it is to be kissed.” (Bukhari 2545, Muslim 1661, Ahmed 2143)

          1. two points

            – there is a 9th century medieval navigation manual by arabs for indian ocean. extensive talk about race/color. eg “indians in this northern city are lighter and so good-looking.” “women in sri lanka are sexually available, make sure to make a pit-stop here.”

            – Iranians expressed and express color racism against arabs during and after the conquest and down to the present. this 1980s Iranian movie explores this a bit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashu,_the_Little_Stranger

          3. “women in sri lanka are sexually available, make sure to make a pit-stop here.”

            I would think still true. For the most part, SL women are their own mistresses and independent. During British times women lost the right to own their property after marriage (a key factor for being independent) and there were Victorian morals that were idealized though practiced in the default.

            Knox, (1681) says
            a) mentions that the dowry was considered the property of the wife and she was free to take it away, should the marriage be a failure

            b) “In this country each man, even the greatest, hath but one wife; but a woman often has two husbands. For it is lawful and common with them for two brothers to keep house together with one wife, and the children do acknowledge and call both fathers”.

            c) these women are of a very strong and courageous spirit, taking nothing very much to heart, mourning more for fashion than affection, never overwhelmed neither with grief of live. And when their husbands are dead, all their care is where to get others, which they cannot long be without.”

            d) Their marriages are but of little force or validity for if they disagree and mislike one another, they part without disgrace…. Both women and men do commonly wed four or five times before they can settle themselves to their contention.”

            Robert Knox (1681) “An historical relation of the Island Ceylon in the East Indies”
            http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/14346
            Knox was captured by the Kandyan King and was kept for 20 years. Escaped and wrote about life in the Hill Country.
            Supposed to have inspired Defoes, Robinson Crusoe

          4. @Razib

            “– there is a 9th century medieval navigation manual by arabs for indian ocean. extensive talk about race/color. eg “indians in this northern city are lighter and so good-looking…”

            IMO, not surprising, since it’s culturally neutral that men tend to like women slightly lighter than them and women tend to like men slightly darker than them (guess because of increased melanin production effect of testosterone?). Also, people tend to like people who look fairly close to themselves but maybe off just enough to be “exotic.” Women of the NW will fit this bill the best for male Arab traders.

            On another note, Sri Lanka even today, per sbarkum’s comments, seems more sexually liberal than the rest of S Asia.

      3. Re arab attitudes towards South Asians, I do notice a change in attitude in last few years. As Razib noted, UAE has path to citizenship for non-arabs. Needs to be seen how it pans out. Also UAE and oman are allowing the building of Hindu temples. More than citizenship, this I believe is a much bigger symbolic change. I don’t think most Indians working in Gulf actually want to settle there. The thinking is earn, save and retire back. Mainly b/c IN and Gulf are just few hours away by air.

        Another thing that I heard through grapevine is that for same job family, euros get paid more than sub-continentals.

        The bigger question is do arabs differentiate between sub-continental hindus/muslims in any material terms. Do muslims get a leg up in either business and/or career?

        1. they talk shit about hindus to brown Muslims. i know this from multiple personal interactions. often have to do with hygiene but i think it’s mostly prejudice?

          1. This is interesting. Hindus especially trads get dinged by left for obsessive focus on ritual cleanliness. In fact the Muslim practice of multiple people eating from same plate is abhorred due to its potential for exchanging germs etc.

          2. @bhumiputra
            The trad hindu ideal of cleanliness isn’t the same as what global average expectations would be for grooming. Its such a blind spot for many indians that I know, and a big ego issue, to accept that standards are not being met. Anglo whites are probably if anything the most diplomatic about this, but from SE Asia to Africa, people are baffled by the indifference to personal presentation and body odor in particular.

        2. >Another thing that I heard through grapevine is that for same job family, euros get paid more than sub-continentals.

          this is true, but its more passport centric than racial. if you have a western passport, you have more opportunities elsewhere in the world and the opportunity cost of attracting you to live in gulf is higher, so a higher salary is offered. with a pakistani/indian passport, opportunity is limited and opportunity cost is low. salary offered is lower too. supply and demand.

          I do think that gcc arabs look upto the west, because obviously west is rich and successful, but when it comes to business, racism costs $$$.

          1. consulted in qatar in 2017. this was true. more about american than race…though there was some racial attitudes as they think american=white (we talked to a black american MD who was paid well like any american and had to prove himself a little bit more in his opinion).

  46. >The bigger question is do arabs differentiate between sub-continental hindus/muslims in any material terms. Do muslims get a leg up in either business and/or career?

    This used to happen commonly in the 90’s.. Previous gen Arabs preferred Pakistanis over Indians because Muslim.. and lot of prejudice against Hindus existed. But this policy started changing in the 2000’s.. and I think a radical change in Saudi Arabia happened after 2013 when Saudi Pak relations took a hit due to Pak’s refusal to join Yemen. Not sure how the environment is these days.. Saudis are generally more conservative than Emiratis so I guess it still persists somewhat.

    UAE is a bit different, lot of well educated Indians in Dubai so difference is minimal. Also big indian presence in Sharjah.

    Abudhabi is more conservative, so I would say that would be more in line with Saudi attitudes.

  47. The trad hindu ideal of cleanliness isn’t the same as what global average expectations would be for grooming. Its such a blind spot for many indians that I know, and a big ego issue, to accept that standards are not being met. Anglo whites are probably if anything the most diplomatic about this, but from SE Asia to Africa, people are baffled by the indifference to personal presentation and body odor in particular.

    one of the guys who complained about hindu cleanliness was a Palestinian (dubai) guy with the worst dandruff i’d ever fucking seen. so i just assumed it was prejudice.

    1. I am assuming most well off Indians can afford and use deodorants. Is the contention that Hindus emit Body Odor that these deodorants/perfumes can’t hide? Or is it a problem particular to Hindus in Gulf, since most of them do manual labor work?

        1. Maybe it is from type of food and thus sweat? I know that more AASI Indians tend to have that gene for more dry ear wax and less body odor. I’ve lucked out with that gene myself. Perhaps the smell thing is a more Northwestern phenomena? Early immigrants did disproportionately come from less aasi heavy places/castes.

          This stereotype always confused me in school. When friends came over to my house, they would remark “We’re happy your house doesn’t smell!” This was like middle school kids saying it non ironically. Some fitness youtubers say they smell bad after eating Indian food. Youtuber Elliot Hulse says he smells bad after eating goat curry.

          Every Indian I knew showered daily. Some of the middle aged people didn’t use deodorant. But that’s changed a lot recently too.

          1. Interestingly, growing up in north KA 90s, I remember IN muslims were caricatured for excessive use of cheap perfumes/attars to hide the odor from not showering every day. It was considered a good idea to avoid movie halls on days of muslim festivals to avoid getting a headache.
            Even more interesting that I learned on twtr thread, is that even arabs have a term called “Zankha” for the odor left on utensils after cooking meat on them. For ref.
            https://nypost.com/2022/11/24/the-rancid-food-odor-thats-dividing-the-internet/
            Veggie Hindus also smell this odor instinctively.

          2. what you eat does seem to impact how you smell. east asians who met europeans said they ‘smelled sour.’ some of this is the gene for body odor (associated) is less common in e asians (minority), but the assertion was that eating cheese was the big diff. but idk.

          3. I know that more AASI Indians tend to have that gene for more dry ear wax and less body odor.
            Hmm. did not know that less body odor gene was AASI. Thought is was East/SE Asian and I have 1% SE Asian gene.

            I have the less body odor even though I am over weight and sweat profusely. One of my sisters on the other hand has very smelly sweat even though she started using deodorant as adult.

            I also noticed when I eat a lot of meat (beef) and booze the sweat smells for at least a day. Same with Ethiopian food, the smell does not go away for a day or so. So I think food also does play a part in body odor.

            My DNA 01: Heroin Addiction, Smoking etc
            https://sbarrkum.blogspot.com/2012/03/my-dna-01-heroin-addiction-smoking-etc.html

  48. Meanwhile in the Gangetic, OBCs wilding.

    Bihar education minister, from the RJD, gaslights Ramcharitmanas. Akhil Bharatiya OBC Mahasabha members in UP burn copies of it. SP Maurya who does some additional badmouthing is elevated to the Samajwadi Party National Executive.

    Crickets chirping in “More Dalda, Less Dalda” heads……

    1. LOL. If Tam Brahms would have put up half the fight (against Dravidians), Ugra shows on the blog, then things would have changed. But Alas….

      1. The exploitation of pre-existing caste fault lines has been perfected in PB and TN. Since that is no longer sufficient from an electoral point of view, it will be expanded to other states. Lingayat as separate religion and intra-lingayat competition in KA, Maratha agitation in MH, Patidar agitation in GJ. In UP/BH, the previous caste mobilization just for power spoils has failed in 2017, 19 and 22 cycles. Now it will be turbo charged with theological basis.

  49. On the topics of racism / arabs.

    I had assumed all palestinians were levant looking and light skinned, and some of them are. a few even light hair / eyed etc. (eg Ahed Tamimi).

    But many of them were similar skin color or darker skinned than me. Similar looking to gulf arabs or egyptians.

    Wonder if there is intra-palestinian racism (intra-jewish racism exists for sure in israel)

    1. Wonder if there is intra-palestinian racism (intra-jewish racism exists for sure in israel)

      yes, there is some. to my knowledge it’s not a massive systematic issue, but darker-skinned Palestinians are seen as ‘less typical’? i had a close Palestinian friend who grew up in the states, most his family looks levantine/white, but he had a cousin who was darker-skinned and looked kind of indian…my friend wondered to him if he had African ancestry (almost certainly that’s it, it’s found in most Palestinians), and his cousin reacted really negatively. later my friend was told my other relatives this cousin was sometimes teased/mocked for his darker complexion.

  50. The evil witch, Victoria Nuland, responsible for the death and destruction in Ukraine, is visiting Delhi. Pray for India.

      1. So far Modi/JS have been able to resist the pressure from the US but it remains to be seen how long they will be successful.
        Modi/JS have deftly managed to walk a tightrope.

    2. The evil witch, Victoria Nuland, responsible for the death and destruction in Ukraine, is visiting Delhi. Pray for India.
      Pray for Sri Lanka too, she just visited again.

      Trying hard to curb Russia and India trade. Even the Adani hit piece maybe to reduce refining Russian crude

      is catching especially amongst global investors who may swiftly reevaluate their weighting of Indian assets

      Russia’s “Sanction-Proof” Trade Corridor to India Frustrates the Neocons
      https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2023/01/246260.html

  51. On the whole thing of how Indians know Pakistanis better and vice versa.

    https://theprint.in/opinion/letter-from-pakistan/no-one-knows-raw-agents-better-than-pakistanis-from-mission-majnu-to-pathaan/1344013/

    ‘The ISI doesn’t claim to be the number 1 intelligence agency in the world for nothing. The success rate of ISI agents honey-trapping Indian jawans on social media is off the charts and we are not even counting the online ludo and Yash Raj productions in it. Girls going rogue and following their heart is another theme in espionage altogether. The ISI chief should definitely look into the forbidden love spycraft.

    The victims of forced disappearances are angry with ISI that sends bald, pot-bellied agents to kidnap them, while Shah Rukh Khan and Salman Khan get ‘agents’ like Deepika Padukone and Katrina Kaif to work with. They say it is unfair.’

  52. Russia’s “Sanction-Proof” Trade Corridor to India Frustrates the Neocons

    Russia, Iran, and India are speeding up efforts to complete a new transport corridor that would largely cut Europe, its sanctions, and any other threats out of the picture. The International North-South Transport Corridor (NSTC) is a land-and sea-based 7,200-km long network comprising rail, road and water routes that are aimed at reducing costs and travel time for freight transport in a bid to boost trade between Russia, Iran, Central Asia, India.

    For Russia, the “sanction-proof” corridor provides a major export channel to South Asia without needing to go through Europe. But Brussels and Washington, frustrated by their losing in Ukraine and inability to put much of a dent in the Russian economy, could lead them to take more desperate measures.
    https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2023/01/246260.html

  53. This is one of the earliest recordings of Sade.

    Helen Folasade Adu. Sade was born in Ibadan, Nigeria.
    Her parents are Adebisi Adu, a Nigerian lecturer in economics of Yoruba background, and Anne Hayes, an English district nurse;

    Sade – Nothing Can Come Between Us – Official – 1988
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oVI0GW-Xd4

  54. How the British saved India’s classical history

    In 1834, Cunningham used his engineering skills to drill deep down into the main stupa at Sanchi, where he discovered evidence that Buddhism had been widespread for several centuries from the Mauryan period onwards. He went on to excavate a large collection of Buddhist sculptures at Sarnath in Bihar, the best of which he shipped off to Calcutta.

    On a later visit, Cunningham was dismayed to find that many of the sculptures he had left behind were being used to dam a nearby river. It was typical of the constant battle British archaeologists fought to rescue their finds from the Indian habit of using old stones for new buildings. Forty years later, when Cunningham discovered the 2,000-year-old Indus Valley ruins at Harappa, he found bricks from the site being used nearby to lay a new railway line. Much later, in the 1920s, it was British archaeologists who linked Harappa to Mohenjodaro in the Sind desert and identified both as belonging to a pre-Aryan civilisation.

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-the-british-saved-indias-classical-history/

    1. This is the same zaree mastani that i beat online on twitter and made him concede That Different Indian states would have developed differently irrespective of british. And south Indian states were industrialising and developing faster. Indian classical history needed no saving. The archeaological data for Indus valley civilization is spread across a very vast area. Same with asoka stupas, they too are spread very far. The sanchi stupa still stands. I see his british apologetics is still continuing. when i mentioned that literacy was low in India compared to china at time of Independence, that 3rd grade moron pointed that males being educated more in India than china he said as only males count. Tell that gay idiot that female education counts more , also that education in princely states were better than in british controlled states. Also tell him that bengal which had been under british longest has been pathetic performer economically compared to many coastal states.

      1. He sure sounds like a colonial apologetic. His people did well for themselves under colonial rule.

        But why so bitter. Let’s not throw baby+water. We can simultaneously acknowledge the European contribution for rediscovering our antiquity while being mindful of their ulterior proselytic motives and racist/white-burden interpretations.

        Similar concessions should be given to the later Marxist historians too.

        1. A theory for why the baby will be thrown out with the bathwater in the current state of India.

          To acknowledge foreign contribution requires self confidence which India lacks because at the end of the day India is still much, much poorer and weaker than the West. India basically has a chip on its shoulder. So to acknowledge any foreign contribution is tantamount to acknowledging weakness or perhaps even inferiority in the eyes of a nationalist. A Westerner will acknowledge contribution from the Islamic Golden Age without much issue because at the end of the day, the West is the one bombing Middle Eastern countries not the other way around. Or look at the early Arab caliphates. When they had conquered everything from Spain to Sindh, they gladly devoured knowledge from the Greeks, Persians and Indians without any issue. And now compare it to the pitiful state of knowledge absorption in the Arab world today. More books are translated into Czech or Catalan than Arabic.

          Confident and powerful civilizations will absorb and acknowledge contributions from other civilizations. Weak and insecure ones won’t. If India is a wealthy and powerful country in a hundred years, that India won’t be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

          1. @HJ, I’m not sure because China does the wounded civilization shtick better than us, despite all their development.

          2. HJ is an idiot who cant seem to realize that i actually debated with that idiot twice, over 7 yrs or so and got him to concede on twitter. I dont have a chip on shoulder etc. stop mindreading . That is the most easiet thing to do. I can mind read u as being moron too, if you would like. How can i not acknowledge western contribution being a student of physics, most of physics comes from the west.

            My problem is with that particular idiot, who has a phd in history or something and lost to an amateur on history on twitter. I did the same with another lady from jnu on islamic contribution to algebra/ math etc.

            When u lose to total amateurs , u should not be taken seriously on same/similar topic. Tell him to write about something else. But the west like giving columns to idiots like these.

          3. Sure I am the idiot, not the guy who keeps repeating 10 times that he won some Twitter debate from 7 years ago.

          4. @Naveen

            Good point. But notwithstanding their development compared to India, they still are much poorer and weaker than Japan and the West. An economic or military victory over these countries could get rid of their victimhood complex. The latter not happening without WW3 but still.

  55. idk if this is confirmation bias but it appears to me that some sinhalese folks do seem to look a bit different from their tamil counterparts despite their autosomal breakdown/dna admixture results being pretty much identical

    Again, could be confirmation and selection bias. Could be that I just saw the atypical types and could be just confirmation bias. who knows. Interesting.

    1. @pencilman

      https://www.firstpost.com/entertainment/faraaz-movie-review-docudrama-style-feature-about-a-terror-attack-in-bangladesh-with-a-universal-message-12096772.html

      ‘Faraaz movie review: Docudrama-style feature about a terror attack in Bangladesh with a universal message

      Hansal Mehta’s account of the Holey Artisan Bakery tragedy in Dhaka is effective when it subtly points to the commonalities between India and Bangladesh, and the everydayness of the terrorists involved.’

      1. Saurav,

        Bangladesh: has faced attacks from terrorist groups

        India: has faced attacks from terrorist groups

        Pakistan: has faced attacks from terrorist groups

        Sri Lanka: has faced attacks from terrorist groups

        We really are sem 2 sem after all! :O

    2. some sinhalese folks do seem to look a bit different from their tamil counterparts despite their autosomal breakdown/dna admixture results being pretty much identical

      I think that is more cultural than actual phenotype. Specially those more rooted in rural Tamil or Sinhalese background.

      The Tamil guys have mustaches much like their Tamil Nadu counterparts. Women have pottus regardless of western attire. That said Sinhalese guys have full beards like Muslims.

      In urban areas, almost impossible to separate Sinhalacized Tamils and Sinhalese. And that process has been occurring over generations and centuries. South Indian immigrants have been absorbed into the Sinhala cultural space. A good example Sarath Foneska, the Army General who was head when the war was won. He is of Karave (fisher) and Salagama (cinnamon peeler) caste. Both castes brought down during during Dutch and Portuguese times. The opposing Prabakaran is a Tamil Karyar (Karawe) caste.

      Its like the US, specially European immigrants. They become assimilated into being generic white Americans

  56. https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/india-shah-rukh-khan-pathaan-hindutva-strengthen-how

    ‘How Shah Rukh Khan’s Pathaan will strengthen Hindu nationalism’

    ‘But is Pathaan really the film we have all been waiting for?

    Does it poke at any of the myths of Hindu nationalism and supremacy that have enveloped India over the past decade? For this, we must return to that scene when the whisky-toting-bikini-clad liberal Pakistani spy Rubina (read: “good Muslim”) stares longingly at Pathaan and asks if he is Muslim.

    After evading the question and expressing his nationalistic pride as the orphan who was “raised by India”, Pathaan explains that his adopted name came from a clan in a village in Afghanistan that nursed him back to health following an injury he sustained during a mission for the Indian army.

    In a single swipe, the scene erases both Pathaan and SRK’s direct connection to his Muslim heritage.

    In so doing, it succumbs to the Hindu nationalist belief that Islam is not intrinsic to Indian Muslims. Pathaan’s Muslimness – conveyed through a story of how he was given his name in Afghanistan – is therefore a borrowed and acquired identity and, crucially, one that is foreign to India. In this way, Pathaan was “lost” and through his kinship with the Indian army, he is “found”.

    His allegiance, then, is to Mother India, to whom he belongs. And for Pathaan, Mother India manifests herself in his superior, Nandini (Dimple Kapadia) whom he calls mother, too.

    Later, and naturally so, when Nandini sacrifices herself for the nation, she invokes the name of the Hindu deity Shiva, making it clear who is at the core of Mother India’s spiritual centre.’

  57. https://www.theguardian.com/film/2023/feb/03/bollywood-pakistan-muslims-narendra-modi-india

    ‘Bollywood is obsessed with Pakistan. We’d be flattered if it weren’t so nasty

    ‘I interviewed Khan, or SRK, as he is known to his hundreds of million fans around the world, for a book five years ago and noticed even then that he straddles an uncomfortable role as the ever grateful Muslim who is really, really, really Indian. As India embraces the Hindu majoritarian politics of its ruling BJP party, high-profile Muslim figures like Khan are increasingly seen as fifth columnists. Trolls and angry protesters often beseech Muslim stars to “go back to Pakistan”, though they have no roots there. Today in India, anyone who questions the government or dissents from popular discourse is slandered as “anti-national” and told to go live in Pakistan.

    Never mind the Indian assassins wearing necklaces that say LOVE in gold block letters – weirder still is the latent Israeli hero worship. A byproduct of Modi’s visceral hatred of Muslims has been a strengthening of ties between India and Israel during his tenure. In 2017, Modi became the first Indian premier to visit Israel, where he and Benjamin Netanyahu enacted the bromance of two image-obsessed prima donnas by posing barefoot on beaches. Beyond photo ops, trade between the two countries now amounts to close to $8bn, with India now the largest buyer of Israeli military equipment in the world.

    Many have argued, myself included, that Pakistan, burdened as it is by a failing economy, decades of terrorism and the humiliations of the war on terror is undergoing a cultural renaissance. Pakistani film-makers are making movies about trans love stories, female desire and the toxic societal power of patriarchal fundamentalists, and producing music that questions the divisions and partitions between us and our Indian brothers and sisters. And so it is doubly strange to watch what is happening across the border, where culture is no longer a medium used to extend conversation but rather a means to snuff it out.’

  58. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/marylands-democratic-lt-governor-has-ties-to-a-dangerous-far-right-movement_n_63dc3041e4b0c8e3fc83a42b?utm_campaign=share_twitter&ncid=engmodushpmg00000004

    Maryland’s Democratic Lt. Governor Has Ties To A Dangerous Far-Right Movement

    “It’s a racist movement. It’s a caste-ist movement. It’s a supremacist movement. It’s an antisemitic movement. It’s an Islamophobic movement. That is something all of those things are going to be affecting people who are already vulnerable and marginalized in the U.S.,” said Gayatri Girirajan, a member of Peace Action Montgomery. “We should start looking at the Hindutva movement as a really potent, slow-boiling, long-term sort of foreign interference that really does have a tangible impact.”

    2. Lol, she is married to a guy from a Christian background who much of a Hindu extremist can she be ?

  59. @HJ, i argued with the guy two times,one about 7 yrs back, other only couple of months back. The point is, he sucks at it inspite of being a professional Historian and me being an amateur. But then again, idiots cant see the difference and the thrust of the point. It would be like me mopping razib on genetics in a debate on issues he has written multiple articles for many years.

  60. i got my passport renewed in a weeks time including registration .amazing experience if you have all the documents mentioned. these are basic, nothing fancy.
    in fact the passport was in my hands three days after i visited the office.
    similarly my provident fund got settled very fast.
    if only state govts. can do something like this we will have nothing much to complain.

    1. It’s been like this for at least 10 years, right? Credit where it’s due, you should thank Tata Consultancy Services.

      Immigration with all the paper forms still sucks, no? Or it sucks more than US immigration which is saying something.

  61. This was written as a response to a dear friend and college mate who waxed eloquent about UK land laws.

    In Sri Lanka, the state owns 85% of the Land. In UK 85% is private land, with the Crown owning 55% of Land and the various Duchy’s own about another 30%. Another factor one needs to consider is that SL is 80% rural and in UK rural population is just 17%

    Most of Sri Lankan land is leased called (permit land) from the state, specially households in the rural and dry zone areas. All large agriculture enterprises including tea estates over 50acres is leased from the state (Unhappily at dirt cheap rates).|

    In my neck of the woods every single piece of land/house hold is on permit (leased). A KEY DIFFERENCE between SL State land vs UK private crown lands. In SL one can homestead about 2 acres of state land and build a house. i.e. Plant a few trees and build a small hut and request a permit (lease). Eventually they get a deed like JayaBoomi/SwarnaBhoomi **

    The lady who comes and does a little work for me on and off squatted on 1.75 acres. Its about 25m from main road, but about 1 km from village center., No nearby shops so not desirable a few years back. Husband and wife booze so not done much. They will wait till the govt gives electricity and piped water (maybe these days because of elections). May even a small house made on govt money. If they plant coconut trees they will get about 1 lakh (USD 300) 8 times a year just from coconut (60 tree/acre) at current prices

    The other issue is that people cant be ousted from their only home for non payment of taxes or mortgage for that matter. Thats why there isnt a big home loan, mortgage market in SL. (Mortgages are mainly for govt employees, the collateral their pay check),

    Property Taxes/permit lease amount are small a couple of hundred rupees for acres. I pay LKR 3,000/year (about USD 10) for 6+ acres. Not even paid that over a couple of years, because a hassle. Need to take cash (no cheques or credit cards) and go to the Divisional Secretariat (formerly Kacheri/AGA office) about 10km away. That means I have to go to Puttalam (30 km away) get the money and come back. A whole days work. BOC just opened an ATM next door so maybe I will make the effort and pay up.

    Like I said before Sri Lanka is 80% rural and 85% is state owned that includes homestead. That means there are people everywhere, except on some isolated mountain without access to water. So you get homes even in the Wildlife Parks buffer zones (eg the big controversy over Muslim homes in the Wilpattu Northern buffer zone. Not much notice about 200acres in southern buffer zone claimed by a very political connected College mate.

    In contrast the wild parks in UK are privately owned. So if one tries to homestead, they would be removed and placed in a drug infested slums called Council Estates. We have some such around the Dematagoda area. The other is that you cant walk in SL national park, dangerous wild life and to prevent poaching. No dangerous wildlife in UK parks. All exterminated. (note worlds first wild life refuge was created by Devanampiya Tissa around 227 BC)

    The other is that UK has a lot of segregation by economic class. Its done by property taxes and building codes. So in desirable neighborhoods like close to Parks, the poor get priced out and evicted for not paying taxes or keep to building codes. Cant do that in SL, even a tin shed house next to mansion is fine. Often cant even be bought out because no proper title or even a permit..

    My friend waxes eloquent about the fight for right to trespass etc on private land (85% of UK). In Sri Lanka post independence enlightened socialist politicians like SWRD and Srimavo using Land reform righted a lot of wrongs enacted by the Brits. In Sri Lanka there is a lot of protection and rights for poorer economic classes.

    Of course many of the elite urban capitalist types of Sri Lanka will much prefer the UK system. 85% privately held land and the less well off,, the yobs and swabasha types in urban drug infested slum Council Estates/US type Projects. Out of sight and out of mind like Dematagoda.

    1. responses by English people
      ‘Drug infested council estates’ erm … I was born on a council estate and my father lived there until his death at the age of 95. In actuality the council estate no longer exists. A victim of Mrs Thatcher. The houses belonged to the local authorities who rented them at a reasonable rate. She in effect privatised them – forcing councils to sell to their tenants at a huge discount – upto 70%, but didn’t allow the authorities to replace the houses using the proceeds.
      They are not the ‘poshest’ area but it is wild exaggeration to call them drug infested.
      My reply
      >
      Maybe watching too many TV stuff like Dagliesh or what I know personally of in the US, the Projects in Harlem and Bronx.
      Yes I have and still have dear friends in Harlem and the Bronx and they have visited me a couple of times here in Wilpattu.
      >.She in effect privatised them – forcing councils to
      >sell to their tenants at a huge discount
      I hope leigh you realize now thats a huge privatization/gentrification effort.
      i.e. Give residents ownership and big money buys them out.
      Leigh, maybe you forgot I worked on Wall Street for 12 years. I know the mentality.

    2. I think British council estates were a bit different from the American projects! Actually after WW2 when Britain had a huge housing crisis they were much sought after. Leigh’s parents considered they’d died and gone to heaven when they got one! Bathroom and two toilets! Right up until Leigh’s dad died the area was still very respectable, although most houses were by then privately rented (thanks, Mrs T!) It would be wonderful if councils had the money to build more houses like those, instead people have to rent from private landlords and that’s what has caused a lot of previous council estates to decline.

      My reply
      My dear African American friends were all classy, decent with white collar jobs (and please I love my blue Sri Lankans who bring in 30% of the foreign exchange working as maids in the Mid East).
      If you recall I mentioned I had friends mother who had an apartment around 62 Street in mid town Manhattan.
      They also had an Apartment at 147th Street, very genteel even then in the mid 90. But when you get out on the street it was the border to the South Bronx.

    1. It looked awful in person compared to Hyderbad about 10 years ago, when I visited. Maybe better now? I heard it’s growth stagnated with leftist divider Mamata

  64. can some one ask saideepak on his views on missionaries and what to do on that thing. focusing on islam is a bit strange, that problem wont be big on its own even if it happens, will take significantly longer time. This one on the other hand has been shifting much faster demographically. rate of change is faster. what are the views of the raitawinga?

  65. ” “Nitish Kumar chose Tejashwi Yadav because he knew after 2025, he wouldn’t be the chief minister and wanted the condition of Bihar to turn worse, as then people would think Nitish Kumar was better and then choose him again. He wants to continue his legacy. That’s why he does not want someone better than him to come to power,” Prashant Kishor was quoted as saying by the news agency, ANI.
    He further said, “When Nitish Kumar met me in Delhi in March 2022, he told me about the Mahagathbandhan and requested me to join. He knew that if he continued his alliance with the BJP, after winning the 2024 polls, he would be removed and the BJP would choose a Chief Minister from their own party.”
    Nitish Kumar is of the ideology that if Yadav comes to power and Lalu Yadav’s jungle raj returns to the state, people would want Kumar to come back and think that he was better, Prashant Kishor stressed. ”
    Bihar, the land of consistently choosing bad choices for over 70 yrs. Nitish turned out to be a snake.

    https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/prashant-kishor-says-jdu-was-offered-17-seats-2019-lok-sabha-elections-pm-modi-nda-alliance-2330585-2023-02-05

  67. this person ‘j khan’ keeps trying to leave comments on this blog. but only i see them, though i barely read them (spam they go!). confused, i thought he was extremely intelligent, rich and makes a massive contribution to to the human race…but he takes time out to write comments on a blog that literally no one will read.

    and just a note, some of you people are kind of ignorant of how blogs work: some of your comments will go into moderation. you really annoy me when you are convinced you are getting censored. commenting is a privilege, not a right. if it’s a wall of text with links expect it to get caught/flagged (i usually push it through but i don’t check this blog every day).

  69. Been reading gandhi’s autobiography. I read it at some point during childhood but first time reading it as an adult. Defiantly getting more out of it this time around.

    Some thoughts only a few chapters in..

    – seems to have had genuine conviction in his principles not some sort of 5d chess.

    – he was literate in tamil (learned in South Africa while advocating for the rights of Indian labourers who were mostly Tamil), offhandedly comments he couldn’t understand why some English educated Tamil people didnt like learning Hindi which is an Indian language.

    – came from a family of “Diwan” (prime ministers to local kings) in Junaghad and Porbandar. I wasn’t aware of this.

    – caste stuff seems to have been taken much more seriously back then. He was outcasted by half of his community for going to study in England. His brother had to throw a big feast and some ritual purification stuff to win back some of their favour. Also it helped that he took a vow of vegetarianism and brahmacharya when he went to England.

    – treatment of brown people in South Africa was worse than in India

    – went to a bunch of Christian missionary type meetings in South Africa. His Muslim merchant employer seems to have been an influence on him not to convert to Christianity and also to keep wearing his turban. (apparently at some point later he will explain why he chose not to wear any headgear, but haven’t gotten to that part yet )

    – seems to really like Tolstoy’s writings.

    1. Been on a bit of a British Raj binge recently both fiction and non-fiction.
      For fiction I have read this alternate history book called “the Peshawar lancers” about an alternate post-apocalyptic history where much of Europe, North America are destroyed by a meteor strike in the Benjimin Disraeli era. The British move their capital to Delhi and the “Angrez Raj” is the global superpower.

      Lmk if y’all have any recommendations.

  71. The emergence of theistic devotionalism (bhakti) in a more organized manner transformed the religious culture of the subcontinent. Its earliest recorded emergence was around 600 CE onward in the Tamil speaking region, with the Alvars (Vaishnava bhakti saints) and Nayanmars (Shaiva bhakti saints).

    Here is a link to contemporary singers singing the devotional poetry of one of the prominent bhakti saints, Aandaal (~6/700s). She was a devotee of Krishna. Her poetry is still recited and performed annually in the month of Margali, around November / December.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxeeauHz5CQ

    You can find transliterations and translations to English of the poems here:

    https://ramanuja.org/sv/alvars/andal/tiruppavai/verse1.html

    1. We can not understate the influence of Bhakti tradition in the resurgence of what we call today as Hinduism. Bhakthi which advocates a personal attachment and devotion to an individual god rejuvenated the spiritual landscape of the subaltern that earlier had to deal with impersonal Vedic and Sramanic traditions. In today’s Hinduism, Bhakti is the main course, with kula/grama deities as the entree, with a side of Vedic, Tantric, Agamic praxis and a snack of Jyotisha, Saguna and other esoteric practices.

      Some well known modern takes on Tamil Bhakti hymns below.

      Thiruvasagam in Symphony – Ilayaraja’s stirring composition for the Saivite hymns, in western classical tradition.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8JUYQeWSbI

      AR Rahman’s take on the above Thiruppavai
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJ2o3rzVrZw

      Mods, please let these links thru.

      1. One question I have gotten from non Hindus is basically how come Hinduism on the ground does not reflect what they read about?

        To the extent people in the West take any interest in Hinduism, it usually focuses on:

        * The religion of the karmakanda of the Vedas, the ritualistic religion. Some interest probably stems from the fact that it is so old, an oral tradition that has continued for millennia, so there may be information to be gleaned from it about human history; and also perhaps motivated by the linguistic connection, serving as an early attested Indo European language.

        * The religion of the jnanakanda of the Vedas, the shramanic religion. Interest is probably driven by the same reasons some in the West take an interest in Buddhist philosophy (shorn of all the post Buddha traditions of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism). It is seen as sophisticated in some sense.

        And then they go to a place like India and realize that most of modern mainstream Hindu religious practices and beliefs are based on stories from the Mahabharata, Ramayana, the major Puranas, and the Agamas.

        Bhakti based on that literature is the motivating impetus behind Indian classical music (lyrics and poetry that reference or retell the same stories); Indian classical dance (interpretative dance that conveys the same stories); Indian visual art (depicting the same stories); sculptures of deities (which symbolically allude to the same stories); grand temples (shrines that house the presiding deity); festivals, based on those same stories; sacred geography; pilgrimages etc.

        That’s not to say ritualism and shramanism do not exist. Smartas tend to be more conservative in preserving this. While Shrauta rituals are virtually non existent, coming of age milestone rituals still use karmakanda Vaidika mantras; Agamika temple rituals are influenced by / adaptations of some Shrauta rituals; people still recite / listen to karmakanda Vaidika mantras.

        For shramanism, there are still many sadhus and sannyasis; ashrams; meditation practices; physical yoga practices; and with the rise of a more educated middle class and the Internet, perhaps now more than ever people are reading things like the Upanishads.

        But as you note, bhakti is the dominant tradition now. I think the bhakti traditions, movements, etc., deserve a lot more attention. It’s a missing piece in many people’s understanding of Hinduism / the development of religious practices and beliefs in the subcontinent. Often just dismissed as ‘popular religion’ or ‘folk religion’ or a more primitive form of religious expression.

        1. my american xtian friends when they read these comments or talk to indian hindus on clubhouse say that hindus tend to reduce christianity purely down to a set of beliefs common to protestantism, especially anglo-american protestantism.

          1. I guess that’s because the global north is mostly Protestant and that’s what the aavarage Indian is exposed to.

        2. Often just dismissed as ‘popular religion’ or ‘folk religion’ or a more primitive form of religious expression.
          It also isn’t helped by the fact that Hindus keep overstating the importance&scriptural authority of Vedas.

          I think its a sign of Hindus trying to fit in with the other abrahamic religions that have an authoritative dogma.

        3. Looking outside-in, most of the written word in Western languages covers the philosophical layer of Hindu tradition, so the jnana marga literature is what most self-seeking non-hindus encounter. But on the ground, most hindus don’t take to jnana marga – karma/bhakti margas are sufficient for most. Karma/bhakti margas don’t give the left part of the brain too much to chew on, they are more performative than descriptive, hence the dearth of written word, especially in the world languages. So the jnana marga is a tough entrypoint (for both hindus and non-hindus) unless they are already a seeker and have a philosophical bent. Bhakti/Karma margas are easier entrypoints as illustrated by the relatively successful cults like ISKCON in the West and in Africa of all places.

  73. If Bangladesh is willing to apologize for the Mukti Bahini massacres of West Pakistanis, Biharis and Pakistan supporting Bengalis (of which there were many), then perhaps Pakistan should preemptively issue an apology. Otherwise there is absolutely no gain from any apology.

    1. or bengalis can haggle out a cash compensation!!!, but pakistan is bit short on that count,
      or on the other hand, pakistanis can take back ‘their’ biharis, the bangladeshis would be eternally grateful.

      1. There are literally more Bengalis in Pakistan than there are Urdu speaking Biharis in Bangladesh. They weren’t massacred in 1971 like the Biharis. Most of the Biharis were repatriated to Pakistan, and it’s very unfortunate that some were left behind (it’s failure of successive Pakistani governments). However Bangladesh on the other hand refused to take any Bengalis back, despite being an ethno state and not dealing with ethnic politics at home.

        The issue of ”apology” is just a political ploy. Bangladesh is not in the neighborhood, has little cultural links to Pakistan and trade is minimal. Pakistan should not need to entertain their political gimmicks.

  74. Was talking to a friend about religion and TFR, he mentioned increased religiosity increases TFR.

    But I think it depends on the religion. Does Hinduism have a high TFR religious sub-group like the Haredim or the Amish ?

    Afaik it doesn’t. The most lionized people are celibate sadhus and sadhvis.

    Some sects hold Grihastha (householders) in equal standing but afaik none encourages its followers to ‘be fruitful and multiply’

    It think Parsis are another example of a closed off religious community. Which has had below replacement fertility for some time now.

    1. Its because those religious sub-groups like the amish&orthodox Jews are patriarchal and discourage women from pursuing careers.

  75. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/08/opinion/india-modi-bbc-democracy.html

    ‘The World’s Biggest Democracy Is Jettisoning Freedom and Tolerance’

    ‘ The cyclical nature of these magazine covers brought to mind the famous quip about Brazil: India was the country of the future and always would be.

    But now it appears that the time has finally arrived: India is indeed the nation of the moment. It is a critical player in just about every major issue facing the planet.
    ‘India is a democracy, no doubt, and Indians have made it clear that they support Modi: His government was returned to power in the last election with an even bigger majority. As the journalist Mihir Sharma wrote after Modi’s 2019 blowout: “We do not live in Modi’s India. We live in Indians’ India, and the reason so many Indians adore Modi is because he represents their preferred conception of the Indian state and the Indian nation.”

    It is a tragedy that India’s rise comes as that dream fades and is replaced by a new India that is less free, less tolerant, more willing to jettison the furniture of democracy to build a temple of national greatness around a single faith. The whole of humanity will be poorer for it.’

  76. Fareed Zakaria lamenting the “erasure” of Gandhi in new India exemplified by the RRR title song “Sholey” aka “revolutionary embers”. He notes the screenwriter excluded Gandhi by design and the stated reasons behind it.
    https://twitter.com/FareedZakaria/status/1622313357381607425

    I think we should be circumspect and not go too far chest thumping. Our history in last millennium has seen too many slips between cup and lips.

    1. West is invested in Indian History. People need to know the truth, Indian Independence movement would not have stopped had Gandhi died.

      1. Patricide is such a huge taboo in the Indian tradition that we don’t see them in the popular itihasas, puranas and even in folk traditions, AFAIK. Even Prahalada the asura lad did not try to kill his abusive father. These patricidal SOBs think they can get away by cutting the man down but that will not happen. He will be rediscovered again and again, he is a man for the ages.

        1. Naveen,
          I think you are conflating the metaphorical “father of nation” with biological father. At best Gandhi can be compared to Bhishma.

          1. I am conflating the relationship but that doesn’t detract from the general point I am making. Bhishma was the father figure for the fatherless Pandavas right? They understood the gravity of waging war against their father figures, gurus and brothers and so went to take his blessings before the war. And Arjuna was greatly reluctant to fight Bhishma one-on-one before the wily Krishna instigated him.

          2. Naveen,
            The actions of main actors in MBh have been critiqued within the epic itself and countless others since. The tldr; summary that made the most sense to me is that kauravas start pointing violations of dharma by pandavas only after pandavas start retaliating to kaurava violations of dharma. Not to speak of all the diplomatic attempts to avoid war by the pandavas.
            In case of Bhishma, even he knew he was on the wrong side but he stuck to his oath/dharma.
            Even in modern history, progressives try to selectively use historical texts/epics to handicap conservatives, when their goal is to obliterate any memories of those epic traditions.
            As one scotus judge said “the constitution is not a suicide pact”.
            If you apply nietzschean lens, Gandhi introduced “slave mentality “ to India. None of our historical heroes were like Gandhi. Gandhi adopted J’s methods. You can argue that conditions justified them. But there is an equally compelling argument that he sheepdogged the nationalist movement.

  80. https://www.vox.com/culture/23592808/pathaan-shah-rukh-khan-bollywood?sdd

    ‘The patriotism we see in Pathaan — I won’t say it’s brave, I won’t say it’s rebellious in any way. But it’s sort of subversive, because SRK is playing a character called Pathaan, which is the name of the Pashto-speaking group in Afghanistan and Pakistan who are mostly Muslim. He’s not saying he is an Indian Muslim; he says he feels connected to a village in Afghanistan. That has nothing to do with India. You’re not exactly going straight on or hitting the heart of Hindu nationalism here.

    The significance of the title is that patriotism isn’t a Hindu birthright anymore. It’s not tied to a certain kind of religion. I see a lot of people criticizing the fact that SRK’s character doesn’t say he’s an Indian Muslim. We don’t know his real name — Pathaan was given to him by a family he met in Afghanistan. But it’s not about what kind of Muslim you are or where you come from. It’s the fact that your love for your country, your love for film, your love for people, your love for art in general, should not be hijacked by one particular community.’

  81. https://www.hindustantimes.com/opinion/terms-of-trade-will-adani-gate-hurt-the-bjp-101676041189749.html

    ‘The second route through which the Adani controversy can hurt the BJP is its impact on the economy as a whole. While the stock value and finances of the Adani Group have suffered a heavy loss, it is entirely premature to say whether the billionaire and his companies will go belly-up, thereby leaving a hole in the finances of public sector companies which have given loans or made investments into the group. In fact, the information available so far suggests that even if the Adani Group were to fail completely, the collateral damage to government-owned banks or the Life Insurance Corporation (LIC) would only leave a small rather than a gaping hole in their coffers. This is exactly the line the government and various regulators have been taking so far. The Indian economy is too big to be affected by the fortunes of just one corporate group and therefore the entire controversy is best left to concerned institutions and does not merit a political discussion, we are told.

    Most political observers and regional political parties believe that the fundamental political contradiction between the BJP and its opponents is a Right versus Left divide on the social question. The larger acceptability for BJP’s majoritarian assertion among Hindus and the pivot within the BJP’s leadership in favour of the subaltern social groups has made the BJP largely immune to a secular or social justice line of attack.

    A successful challenge to the BJP’s hegemony, if at all it comes, will have to come from the economic rather than the cultural left flank. A large part of the Opposition leadership is still to come to terms with this reality and this is exactly what is preventing them from even understanding the roots of the BJP’s current political hegemony.’

    1. – Punjabi Hindus have not maintained Punjabi either. Only the Sikhs have, and that too because it’s the language of their religion

      – Punjabi cannot be standardized easily. There are several competing dialects that sometimes can be radically different and barely intelligible:

      https://www.reddit.com/r/pakistan/comments/10ch0ne/the_different_dialects_of_punjab/

      People speaking one dialect don’t want to speak the dialect of another region as ‘standard Punjabi’.

      — Punjabi is not the only language in South Asia to be overtaken by another language, infact it seems to still be more resilient and has maintained its distinction, compared to languages like Bhojpuri, Awadhi, Braj, Haryanvi etc that are now all taken in and subsumed by Hindi.

      1. One Pakistani Punjabi origin guy I know told me he felt Urdu is a mistake.

        But not because he wanted Punjabi to be preserved but rather the felt Arabic would have been a better choice.

        Lol.

        1. That’s because Urdu continues to connect Pakistan with North India. Spread of Hindi/Urdu in N.India and Pakistan by the British means the two regions are now linguistically connected when they were not ever before. A Punjabi villager and an Awadhi villager would not understand each other 200 years ago, but today they can because of Urdu/Hindi. Indus nationalists wanted to see that connection minimized, so some continue to theorize about how Urdu originated in Punjab (which is just stupid) or how Pakistan made mistake of making urdu as national language and tied itself to India. I have heard both Punjabis and Pathans making the case for Farsi as lingua franca to avoid this problem. All of the them are talking out of their arse and know nothing about language or linguistics. Farsi is dead language, noone spoke it in 1947.. while Arabic doesnt even have the most basic groundwork to make any inroads here. Ii any case, most of the time, these are just lamentations, nobody is really seriously proposing change in course now.

          At best, Pakistan is moving towards a hybrid language mix of English, Urdu and Punjabi/Sindhi/Pastho (insert local language). Billinguals and Trilinguals already mix all their languages without thought, won’t be surprised to see an amalgamation 50 years down the line.

          1. In last few years , Zaidu and his fan base had switched their allegiance to Turkish language and erdogan as the new khalifa.

  84. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNfH4ul69ZQ

    How To Write About WAR: Indian Cinema as Battleground

    ‘India is home to the world’s largest film industry that instrumentalises soft power to generate all kinds of imperial fantasies and aspirations. It has historically been plagued by a pernicious nationalism wherein the othering, vilification and downright humiliation of religions, races, ethnicities and castes is normalized. A recent spate of blockbusters as well as several smaller films on streaming platforms have become cultural battlegrounds that work to manufacture an ideological consensus about violent interventions in Kashmir and other occupied regions, sustain hostilities with neighboring countries and foster malevolent forms of Hindu nationalism. ‘

  85. How to make money on stock losses.

    Steve Ballmer (former Microsoft CEO> swapped around $200 million worth. A month later, he did it again, landing at least $23 million in tax-reducing losses. Similar efforts that December brought $26 million more.

    Among the stocks Ballmer sold were those of the Australian mining company BHP and the global oil giant Shell. Had Ballmer lost confidence in BHP’s management? Was he betting that the price of oil would not soon recover? Not at all. That very day, Ballmer also bought thousands of shares in BHP and Shell.

    A loss, for tax purposes, is valuable; a big one can wipe out millions in potential taxes. Ballmer’s two-step process allowed him to use the loss to lower his taxes, while the near-simultaneous purchase meant he effectively hadn’t changed his investment.

    How the Wealthy Save Billions in Taxes by Skirting a Century-Old Law
    https://www.propublica.org/article/irs-files-taxes-wash-sales-goldman-sachs

    1. Looks very British and modern in the current photo.
      Compare with photo in bbc link below.
      https://www.bbc.com/news/explainers-53428191

      Some quotes from the opindia article

      Several people said that while it is true that Shamina was a minor when she joined ISIS, she stuck to her decision even after she became an adult.

      As a 15yo British girl who was indoctrinated by ISIS, she was a victim. As an adult willing to live in Syria and join ISIS she was no longer a victim. She’s previously defended the UK ISIS terrorist attack.”

      Michael also said that the BBC documentary didn’t mention that Shamina Begum was accused of being involved in the torture of female ISIS captives. She was allegedly a member of the all-female ISIS ‘Hisba’ sadistic ‘morality police’ which tortured women and girls in Syria, he said.

  87. Imranur Rahman of Bangladesh won gold at the Asian Games in Almaty, in the 60 m sprint ! Let’s goooooo! Alhamdulillah.

    Fuck cricket that shit is retarded, I wanna see real sporting and athletic achievement from my folks. This is a good start and really wonderful accomplishment, which Imranur should definitely take great pride in. I wish him the best in luck in his life and inshallah he has a good life.

  88. A 3 year old can do a 60 metre sprint. Don’t think a 3 year old can really bowl or bat.
    Cricket is one of the more superior sports out there.

    1. Cricket is a very skilled game that requires multifaceted athleticism. The older formats were just too long so people found it boring. American influence and baseball has crowded out its expansion because of similarity, so even new formats won’t take hold too much.

  89. I think t20 cricket has mass market appeal. Test cricket still seems to be the pinnacle and one of the ultimate test of skill.

      1. Cricket seems overrated when it has no relevance. Bunch of bilateral series on infinite repeat are completely useless and have lost any real relevance, but tournament cricket shines and in my view, even superior than football tournaments. There is just so much strategy and technical skill involved in a multi faceted fashion, very few other sports come close – if at all.

  90. https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/india/when-in-kolkata-dont-worry-be-happy-10063991.html

    ‘Festivals extend for days here, and no one seems to mind waiting an hour for a routine bank enquiry. Nor does anyone fear loss of limb while walking on the road. The underdog seems to rule here, and the crowds are ever ready to mete out justice.

    Life goes on at a comfortable pace. A visit to a bank for routine inquiries can easily last an hour or more. In saree shops, salesmen explain to you at great length why the saree that you have chosen to buy is the wrong choice and you should instead take this other lower-priced one. Customers don’t mind. No one is in much of a hurry; what exactly are you going to achieve anyway by saving half an hour? Everyone is happy to wait a bit. And everyone is ready to get into friendly conversations with strangers as they wait together. What more could one want? Kolkata is the city to retire in after you decide you have had enough of all those rat races that plague the other metropolises.’

    1. long back I remember seeing a bengali film, in which the main character asks his wife’s younger sister, if her boyfriend is a ‘ kabi or a biplabi’, I.e if he is a poet it a revolutionary?.
      There was no choice for an engineer or any other working type.

  91. https://theintercept.com/2023/02/12/pakistan-economy-crisis-imf/

    “Fragmentation of the state is not possible, but we could see a deep-seated economic crisis that pushes many people below the poverty line, puts simple commodities out of reach, increases food insecurity, and also foments anger among the public,” said Arif Rafiq, a nonresident fellow at the Middle East Institute and specialist on Pakistan. “That can have real political consequences, not just for political parties, but also for the army. If you’re unable to meet the economic needs of the people and just respond with force, it will only catalyze greater anger.”

  93. Question to Pakistani residents/expats – There’s a spate of articles on Pakistan’s economic woes, but how much of that has translated to ground level pain for the average man? There’s a level of economic pain that humans can undergo before breaking point (think SL), is Pakistan close to there or is it all a nothingburger?

    There also seems to be a sharp uptick in terrorist attacks, what’s the urban discourse around this? It seems it hasn’t moved past the ‘this isn’t true Islam’ mantra..

    ——————-

    The Indian economy seems to be booming but India seems to be headed down the same path that the E Asian economies are – urbanisation, punishing work hours, high levels of competition, expensive rents and schooling – a low birth rate future seems to be in the offing. With a higher baseline level of religiosity and a fundamentally pro-natalist culture I used to think that wouldn’t happen but seems I’m increasingly wrong..

    In my own peers from university (top tier, mid 30s urban) childlessness or 1 child max seems to be the norm, I’m definitely the exception with 2 little ones (and I live abroad)..

    1. before breaking point (think SL), is Pakistan

      There wasnt a breaking point in SL. The protests were the result of Victoria Nuland machinations for regime change to get rid of pro Russia and China leaders. Remember Nuland visited SL and Pakistan a few months back. Imran Khan got ousted. In SL it seemed the Rajapakses were ousted, but it was just rearranging the deck chairs and things are pretty much the same.

      The rating agencies contributed by downgrading. That made it harder to borrow in the market rates. SL responded by not servicing debt, i.e. paying interest and redeeming maturing bonds. Guess who lost on that, Hedge funds like Black Rock (50% of Debt) and US controlled ADB.
      SL on the other hand has now some decent Foreign Currency reserves.

      So Nuland made another visit in end of Jan 2023 to SL and India. Specially India to get them to sever ties with Russia. Does not seem to be happening.

      1. SL had serious issues:

        – fx shortage
        – fertilizer shortage
        – overleveraged on international loans (esp Chinese)
        – global economic downturn
        – the government responded to all of the above with printing more money rather than austerity

        But sure let’s blame Victoria Nuland.

        1. SL is such big fish that Pentagon and multiple Wall Street banks and rating agencies had to co-ordinate to oust an ex-US-citizen president and punish SL.

          Nuland is too low in the pecking order to have any bearing on India-Russia relations. At best she might have been a messenger girl.

          I’m actually surprised how India doesn’t figure in this anti-SL conspiracy. India opened a concessional $4 billion credit line to SL, even TN sent aid from its state budget. No good deed goes unrewarded, right?

          1. Naveen
            SL is such big fish that Pentagon and multiple Wall Street banks and rating agencies had to co-ordinate to oust an ex-US-citizen president and punish SL
            A strategic fish and leader that was leaning toward Russia and China. Lot of propaganda about Chinese Debt traps, even though Chinese debt is only 10%.. The US has about 13% of its debt held by China.

            Nuland is too low in the pecking order to have any bearing on India-Russia relations. At best she might have been a messenger girl.
            Yeah, small enough to engineer the 2014 Ukraine Maidan revolution. Then also push for Nordstream destruction.
            Ask Imran Khan, he got ousted after Nulands visit,

            Why all the anti Modi stuff popping out now, even on BBC.
            US wants India (and China) to break with Russia. While India keeps doing trade with Russia specially bypassing dollar transactions, US/NATO sanctions will be hollow.

            So Nuland made a visit again end of Jan 2023 to make Modi change his mind.

            I’m actually surprised how India doesn’t figure in this anti-SL conspiracy. India opened a concessional $4 billion credit line to SL, even TN sent aid from its state budget. No good deed goes unrewarded, right?

            India gets worried that SL will turn to China. About a year ago there was this big Chinese funded Solar project in Jaffna. India and SL Tamils kicked up a fuss and the Chinese were were replaced by I think promises by Adani to take over the project. The project has gone nowhere, and the SL Govt has not kicked up a fuss. Thats what the Tamils wanted noh.

          2. @sbarrkum
            A strategic fish and leader that was leaning toward Russia and China.

            SL have done the China leaning game for a couple decades. So what changed now? What exactly do you mean by SL leaning toward Russia? Russia has zero power projection in the Indian Ocean. SL has always bought Soviet/Russian military hardware. Yes, SL imports some crude from Russia, but the numbers are not large enough to irk US bad enough to destroy SL’s economy. Usually they start with sanctions.

            Lot of propaganda about Chinese Debt traps, even though Chinese debt is only 10%.. The US has about 13% of its debt held by China.

            I don’t think you can compare US’ debt held by China vs SL’s – USD is the reserve currency of the world and the US has a habit of printing them as and when they please.

            Why all the anti Modi stuff popping out now, even on BBC.
            US wants India (and China) to break with Russia. While India keeps doing trade with Russia specially bypassing dollar transactions, US/NATO sanctions will be hollow.
            So Nuland made a visit again end of Jan 2023 to make Modi change his mind.

            Modi thing will be yesterday’s news very soon. Indians know that BBC have always had a colonial hangover. I found even their positive/neutral coverage of India (and other former colonies) patronizing.

            India is now importing more crude from Russia, running its refineries above capacity and exporting the products back to Europe and business is-a booming. First US can ask its NATO allies to stop importing from India but I wonder how that conversation will go. With the huge US-India trade imbalance, US doesn’t have that big of a leverage on India; if anything they might be working together to lean on Russia to bring a face-saving end to the war.

          1. 1. well of course bilateral debt is going to be cheap relative to issuing international sovereign bonds to overseas investors

            if SL could raise the funds no strings attached via market borrowings at the same cost why would it need China and it’s restrictive loans?

            The ideas here is China has to incentivize via cheap debt, and extract its pound of flesh via geopolitical gains, Chinese firms getting contracts etc.

            In this context the terms of the Chinese loans SL got aren’t that great.

            For eg compare SL loan terms with the loan Japan has given India for constructing the Indian Bullet train.

            I.e India has a 50-year loan at just 0.1% interest from Japan with a 15 year grace period.

            2. if I remember correctly, the Chinese debt closer to 20% because some got transferred to state owned enterprises in charge of the various infrastructure projects the loans were funding?

            3. SL approached China twice to restructure in 2015 and 2017 in anticipation of the crises was turned down both times.

            Granted given government mismanagement in SL, China was maybe correct to turn them down.

            but then SL should also pressure china a bit by reconsidering its geopolitical loyalties somewhat.

            i don’t understand the level of simping for China in SL

          2. Replying to Naveen and Sumits comments.
            Sumit: i don’t understand the level of simping for China in SL
            Naveen: SL have done the China leaning game for a couple decades. So what changed now?
            The big geopolitical change is China has gone from being the US cheap labor manufacturing source to a big time competitor. Even the Prime Enemy as per Biden> So the US is trying to stop Chinas influence wherever. It was little too late when US (and India) realized China had cornered the very strategic Hambantota port.
            We have been buddies with China for ages.

            Specially in 1970’s during Srimavo Bandaranaike’s time. That time too we had a foreign currency shortage. It was a really bad time. I was about 12 and we had to stand in line for hours to get bread, rice/dhal/wheat flour on rations. Forced austerity, and we became self sufficient in about 5 years. However, people wanted the imported freebies and gave a 2/3rd majority to the West leaning JR Jayawardene and an open liberal economy. And with that we had 1977 and 1983 ethnic pogroms, burning of the Jaffna Library etc.

            China came to the rescue during those hard times (and 1950’s) with the Rubber Rice pact. Again bypassing dollar transaction. In comparison the US gave us moldy surplus wheat flour on credit (look up PL 480).

            The first China Rice Rubber pact was in 1952 when the very West leaning Dudley Senanayake was the PM. SL (Ceylon then) had foreign exchange crisis in 1952 caused by a dramatic fall in her export prices brought about by the quick end of the Korean War boom. The end of the Korean War and the drastic reduction of commodity purchases by the West – in particular, of natural rubber by the United States.

            China was unable to obtain rubber as a result of prohibition of rubber exports from Malaya following a UN resolution preventing the sale of rubber to China. The American Government invoked the Battle Act which prevented it from giving aid to countries selling strategic materials to Communist countries and cut off aid to Sri Lanka. In addition, US stopped selling sulphur needed by Sri Lanka’s rubber plantations. This was the price that had to be paid for trading with China.

            Rubber Rice pact: The trade was based on barter – exports and imports to balance every year; only the outstanding balance at the end-of-the-year was to be settled in foreign exchange.
            Trade however was rarely balanced in the following years but the outstanding balance was generally carried forward to the next year without settlement in foreign exchange.
            R. G. Senanayake Minister of Commerce in 1952 said: “We noted on the Chinese side the absence of the spirit of bargaining and haggling on comparatively small points. On the other hand, they gave us the impression of being large minded and forthright in their dealings”
            So, Sumit even in the past the Chinese never pressurized us.

            Sumit: could raise the funds no strings attached via market borrowings at the same cost why would it need China and it’s restrictive loans?
            extract its pound of flesh via geopolitical gains,
            China has never pressurized SL about debt repayments. Neither are the loans restrictive. It is IMF, ADB loans (9.5 million, 27%) that are extremely restrictive. In 2017 West leaning Ranil wanted loans/handouts to fund consumption/imports for local political gain. He wanted to be President. The West US did not oblige. So he went to China. The only thing China wanted was the Hambantota lease. That money (about a USD billion) was used in consumption, not to pay any Chinese Debt.
            We cant raise via market borrowings at same cost because of rating downgrades.

            Sumit: if I remember correctly, the Chinese debt closer to 20% because some got transferred to state owned
            Chinese loans, bilateral, commercial whatever are around 10%. See the erd.gov.lk link above.
            yeah propaganda. In one place I saw the statement “Chinese are 45% of Bilateral loans” True. However, (again see link)
            Total borrowings 34.8 million
            Market borrowings 14.7 million i.e. 42%.
            Bilateral borrowings 10.6 million i.e. 30%
            China borrowings are 45% of Bilateral: 30%x45%= 13.5% of Total Borrowings

            Indian Bullet train. I.e India has a 50-year loan at just 0.1% interest from Japan with a 15 year grace period.
            The carrot. Most of the money goes back to Japan to purchase locomotive. And then parts, maintenance etc over 50 years. thats probably in the fine print. Nobody, I repeat Nobody gives handouts. There is always a catch or string
            |
            Sumit:SL approached China twice to restructure in 2015 and 2017
            Never heard of that. Any link. Maybe, you are thinking of the Port lease in 2017. That was not to restructure debt, it was to raise money because the West was not obliging. Money was spent on consumption.

            When Srimavo went to China in 1963 she was given a World Leader type welcome (see video link below). I wonder if the Chinese even then were thinking the long game.

            China Visit of Mrs. Sirimavo Bandaranaike (1963)
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lh6lZY0eTcQ&t=704s

          3. Replying to Naveen and Sumits comments.
            Sumit: i don’t understand the level of simping for China in SL
            Naveen: SL have done the China leaning game for a couple decades. So what changed now?

            The big geopolitical change is China has gone from being the US cheap labor manufacturing source to a big time competitor. Even the prime enemy as per Biden> So the US is trying to stop Chinas influence wherever. It was little too late when US (and India) realized China had cornered the very strategic Hambantota port.

            We have been buddies with China for ages. Specially in 1970’s during Srimavo Bandaranaike’s time. That time too we did had a foreign currency. shortage It was a really bad time. I was about 12 and we had to stand in line for hours to get bread, rice/dhal/wheat flour on rations. Forced austerity, and we became self sufficient in about 5 years. However, people wanted the imported freebies and gave a 2/3rd majority to the West leaning JR Jayawardene in 1977. With that an open liberal economy. Also the 1977 and 1983 pogroms, the burning of the Jaffna Library..

            China came to the rescue during those hard times with the rubber rice pact. Again bypassing dollar transaction. In comparison the US gave us moldy surplus wheat flour on credit (look up PL 480).

            The first China Rice Rubber pact was in 1952 when the very West leaning Dudley Senanayake was the PM. SL (Ceylon then) had foreign exchange crisis in 1952 caused by a dramatic fall in her export prices brought about by the quick end of the Korean War boom. The end of the Korean War and the drastic reduction of commodity purchases by the West – in particular, of natural rubber by the United States.
            China was unable to obtain rubber as a result of prohibition of rubber exports from Malaya following a UN resolution preventing the sale of rubber to China. The American Government invoked the Battle Act which prevented it from giving aid to countries selling strategic materials to Communist countries and cut off aid to Sri Lanka. In addition, US stopped selling sulphur needed by Sri Lanka’s rubber plantations. This was the price that had to be paid for trading with China.

            R. G. Senanayake Minister of Commerce in 1952 said: “We noted on the Chinese side the absence of the spirit of bargaining and haggling on comparatively small points. On the other hand, they gave us the impression of being large minded and forthright in their dealings”

            The trade was based on barter – exports and imports to balance every year; only the outstanding balance at the end-of-the-year was to be settled in foreign exchange.

            Trade however was rarely balanced in the following years but the outstanding balance was generally carried forward to the next year without settlement in foreign exchange.

            When Srimavo went to China in 1963 she was given a World Leaders welcome (see video link below). I wonder if the Chinese even then were thinking the long game.

            Sumit: could raise the funds no strings attached via market borrowings at the same cost why would it need China and it’s restrictive loans?
            extract its pound of flesh via geopolitical gains,
            China has never pressurized SL about debt repayments. Neither are the loans restrictive. It is IMF, ADB loans (9.5 million, 27%) that are extremely restrictive. In 2017 West leaning Ranil wanted loans/handouts to fund consumption/imports for local political gain. He wanted to be President. The West US did not oblige. So he went to China. The only thing China wanted was the Hambantota lease. That money (about a USD billion) was used in consumption, not to pay any Chinese Debt.
            We cant raise at same cost from market borrowings because of Rating downgrades

            Sumit: if I remember correctly, the Chinese debt closer to 20% because some got transferred to state owned
            Chinese loans, bilateral, commercial whatever are around 10%. See the erd.gov.lk link above.
            yeah propaganda. In one place I saw the statement “Chinese are 45% of Bilateral loans” True. However, (again see link)
            Total borrowings 34.8 million
            Market borrowings 14.7 million i.e. 42%.
            Bilateral borrowings 10.6 million i.e. 30%
            China borrowings are 45% of Bilateral: 30%x45%= 13.5% of Total Borrowings

            Indian Bullet train. I.e India has a 50-year loan at just 0.1% interest from Japan with a 15 year grace period.
            The carrot. Most of the money goes back to Japan to purchase locomotive. And then parts, maintenance etc over 50 years. thats probably in the fine print. Nobody,I repeat Nobody gives handouts. there is always a catch or string

            Sumit:SL approached China twice to restructure in 2015 and 2017
            Never heard of that. Any link. Maybe, you are thinking of the Port lease. That was not to restructure debt, it was to raise money because the West was not obliging. Money was spent on consumption.

        3. Sumit
          the government responded to all of the above with printing more money rather than austerity

          I am all for austerity. Given that SL has defaulted on its foreign debt, we have had to live within our means. i.e. no more Bond offerings at inflated interest rates to fund consumption. So austerity.

          So we have to manage with whatever foreign exchange we earn.. No more vehicle imports at least for the moment. No more imported whisky or Troberlone chocolate (all available at a price). What a hard life or as one guy said quality of life (for some) .

          Other than life is quite normal. No more long queues for fuel or anything else. Now the big thing is local elections. I think that too will be a damp squib.

          1. That is good to hear.

            SL has tremendous potential, I am pretty bullish that this stuff gets sorted out and things normalize pretty soon.

          2. China does not appear to be very accommodating for debt restructuring.
            https://www.ft.com/content/b136a36b-5822-4647-8efe-67fc18b00ea3

            “Beijing’s demand to include multilateral lenders would upturn a decades-old rule in sovereign lending that they should be exempt from debt restructuring because they act as lenders of last resort and charge little interest.”

            https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/business/china-silent-on-debt-reduction-targets-for-sri-lanka-to-get-imf-bailout-loan/articleshow/97955813.cms

            “Sri Lankan officials said that China is not willing to follow the debt sustainability analysis (DSA) targets set by the IMF for Sri Lanka to obtain the loan, unwilling to give a moratorium on the island nation’s debt beyond two years which may not be enough.
            According to official figures released by Sri Lanka by the end of June 2022, Sri Lanka owed nearly USD 40 billion to bilateral, multilateral and commercial loans and the Chinese loans amounted to 20 per cent of the total debt owed.”

          3. Rai
            official figures released by Sri Lanka by the end of June 2022, Sri Lanka owed nearly USD 40 billion to bilateral, multilateral and commercial loans and the Chinese loans amounted to 20 per cent of the total debt owed.”

            Here is the end of April 2022 data (dont know of June 2022).
            Total borrowings……….34.8 billion……………… (9.5+10.6+14.7)
            Market borrowings……14.7 billion i.e. 42%. (14.7/34.8)
            Bilateral borrowings… 10.6 billion i.e. 43% …..(10.6/34.8)
            China borrowings……….4.77 billion (45% of Bilateral: i.e. (10.6 x 30% )
            …………………………………….13.7% of Total Borrowings(4.77/34.8)

            So from the data release Total Borrowings 34.8 and China borrowings 13.7

            I guess the Economic Times of India guy had some arithmetic problems.
            http://www.erd.gov.lk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=102&Itemid=308&lang=en#

            “Beijing’s demand to include multilateral lenders would upturn a decades-old rule in sovereign lending >that they should be exempt from debt restructuring because they act as lenders of last resort and charge little interest. ”

            I think China wants Market borrowings (i.e. Hedge Funds) to restructure. There is a precedent here, in Argentinas debt restructure. Bond holders had to take a haircut.

    2. I don’t think the traditional Indian culture is any more pro-natalist than traditional East Asian culture.

      India is still very poor and already is below replacement rate. Imagine when it gets to even half the wealth of China? Also the abysmal sex ratio in India is not going to help with the birth rate either. I imagine men in urban areas might still get women from rural areas but millions of men in rural areas are going to be absolutely screwed over.

    3. >There’s a level of economic pain that humans can undergo before breaking point (think SL), is Pakistan close to there or is it all a nothingburger?

      Hard to tell. Nothing is really happening on the ground that suggests any breaking point. There are some videos going around on how a few people were fighting over wheat sacks, but a lot of them are flood affected people.

      I think economic situation is dire, and usually in these types of situations, middle classes take a big hit in their earnings (their purchasing power is eroded as their salaries are fixed). But one factor people overlook is that every middle class household in Pakistan has family members working abroad sending back remittances either through legal channels or black.

      Daily media articles usually portray doom and gloom (and sometimes the opposite), that doesn’t show the ground realities. If media predictions always came true, Russian economy would have collapsed last May, half the people of Afghanistan would be dead of starvation by now, etc etc

      1. Thanks, thought as much. Desis are inherently robust folk, life goes on.

        Pakistan is one of the most water stressed countries in the world though, and one of the most vulnerable to climate change as well. The economic hardship will just add to this toxic cocktail and create a massive push factor for even more rural emigration in the years to come I imagine.

        1. I think Pakistanis would delay fixing problems, until it cannot be delayed.. but eventually it will be fixed or get patched up and on and on we limp on. That’s how everything is being run in the country.

          I think familial, tribal, religious bonds continue to be very strong.. and it kind of shows. People on the ground, do take care of each other, and if family or tribe can’t help, religious organizations fill the gap.. it helps in times of need, but these strong patronage links also pose biggest challenge to establish a more meritocratic governance system or business environment.

          1. ‘I think Pakistanis would delay fixing problems, until it cannot be delayed.. but eventually it will be fixed or get patched up and on and on we limp on. That’s how everything is being run in the country.’

            Like the entirety of the subcontinent TBH.

  94. Saw the reports about Tata owned airindia placing orders for -400 planes, split equally between Boeing and airbus. While IN is nowhere close to fielding a commercial jetliner, this and the ongoing boom in commercial aviation is a good opportunity for IN to onshore a non trivial share of aircraft manufacturing process. some version of pli or tax credits for r&d .

    1. Otoh, This could be IN buy insurance against secondary sanctions for buying cheap Russian oil. Also eliminates any western move to prop PK up against IN. Leaves IN free to focus exclusively against CN.
      IN & UK are in talks to co develop jet engine 🤦‍♂️.

    2. Tata Advanced Systems already manufactures some parts for Boeing and Airbus. This would have been a great opportunity to negotiate some “offset” agreements and secure more business for TASL.

    3. The numbers are no joke. 400 narrow body and 70 wide body airliners. The narrow body will be used domestically but I read somewhere that Air India wants its 70 wide body jets to undercut the Gulf airlines. I think they can only replace the Indian diaspora market as the Middle East has a more central geography to act as a hub between Europe and Asia. Though the Gulf airlines did undercut the European airlines in the North America-Asia market, so anything is possible.

      More importantly, I reckon Air India expects a huge explosion in Indian tourism abroad. With India getting richer, there are millions of middle-class Indians who can now afford a trip to Europe or North America. Hundreds of middle-aged and elderly Chinese in a group tour are a common sight across North American/European tourist attractions. They replaced the previous South Korean and Japanese ones. Wouldn’t be surprised if see Indians replacing Chinese by the end of this decade.

      1. Beyond tech offsets, the bare minimum that I hope and pray that IN should negotiate is better landing time slots in US airports. Given the 18-20 hr flight times, flights can depart from IN in afternoons and land in mornings in US. The present situation where US/EU bound flights land/take off in IN at unearthly hours of 1-5am is un civilized 😱. This remnant of unequal power dynamic is long overdue for correction.

        1. I am no expert in aviation, but I imagine all the good time slots are already taken up by US, European, Gulf, and East Asian airlines, if you get what I mean.

          Anywhoo, do you know how Air India plans to finance all these purchases? Are they getting some loans from the US Exim Bank(because of Boeing), subsidies from Government of India, or is it all strictly through bond issuance and/ or loans from commercial banks? Couldn’t find any details on that aspect of the transaction.

          1. Re time slots, I suspect you might be right. The only argument would be that IN contributes a significant portion of passengers to middle eastern and European airlines. So if those passengers shift to AI then it is a compelling argument.
            No idea about the financing. If past record of modi is anything to go by then I am sure they would have leveraged the exim bank loans. But this is private airline . Only thing is that ratan tata has an emotional attachment to AI. So not sure how much business sense the tambrahm ceo was able to exercise in this deal.

          2. The Tam Brahm guy is the Chairman so not involved in the day to day operations. The CEO is a Kiwi who previously ran Scoot Airlines, the low cost subsidiary of Singapore Airlines. Singapore Airlines is one of the best airlines but Scoot is average-below average. Tata should have hired someone from Emirates/Cathay Pacific/Singapore Airlines etc. I am sure they have the money to do so.

            Tata’s emotional attachment is a double edged sword. On the one hand it can be great motivator to improve the business, on the other hand it can be cause him to double down on a failed business model. Let’s see how it goes. But I am inclined to bet that the Tatas know what they are doing.

  95. Looks like Bangladesh is the next fertile ground for regime change operations. In the past few months, Donald Lu, Victoria Nunland and other chief regime change operators of the US have visited the country. I expect these visits to ramp up significantly once we get closer to 2024 national elections.

    1. Inshallah they do the regime change in Bangladesh that you say they are planning.

      In the meantime, there needs to be strict opposition and hardline bans to any SJW globohomo agenda in Bangladesh. On the r/bangladesh subreddit, a cancerous subreddit filled with ultra-leftist feminist cucks, they’re all in favour of putting tranny education in the textbook. Cringe. Most Bengali Muslims are strongly against any of it, reddit is a bubble.

    2. In bangladesh and in most muslim countries, USA loves islamists and conservatives even more. They ensure low economic growth and therefore dependence on west for $ and weapons and tech. Wests use of religion is to serve its purpose, not anything else, they like libs/left in India because it degenerates India from being a superpower for same reason. Ideology/religion are tools for west to weaken others.

      They wont support liberals in islamic countries because the people are not ready for that, so they instead seek to delay their growth.

      1. The USA most certainly does support degenerate leftist policies and movements in other countries in the modern era

  96. Indian immigrant Suparna Dutta slams Virginia Democrats for removing her from Board of Ed

    This past week, Virginia Senate Democrats voted to remove Dutta from the Board of Education

    “It gives me no pleasure to bring this name forward for removal from the State Board of Education. I am a South Asian woman myself. I’m an immigrant and so I would, of course, be absolutely delighted to have persons similar to my own background appointed to this very prestigious and very important board,” said State Senator Ghazala Hashmi (D-Richmond). “However, we know in taking a look at the history of this individual that there are areas of problematic concerns for all of us. One area that I would just speak to briefly is the alignment that we’ve seen with very extreme and right-wing, white supremacist groups. This agenda of forcing a perspective on our history and on this nation’s standards that denies the role that slavery played in this country that denies the existence of anti-Black racism in this country. That is very problematic for many of us.”
    “Without a shred of evidence, Sen. Hashmi peddled these lies against a common citizen,” said Dutta. “I think they are very threatened by anyone who challenges orthodoxy and if it is a minority Hindu woman of color like me, it’s especially damaging to them. And it threatens them. And they do what they will in their power to isolate me, shame me and tag me as a racist.”

    https://wjla.com/news/crisis-in-the-classrooms/virginia-board-of-education-suparna-dutta-interview-removal-governor-glenn-youngking-va-democrats-meeting-vote-senator-ghazala-hashmi-standards-of-learning-schools-terry-mcauliffe

        1. Yet Indian Americans(especially Hindus) remain the most loyal Democratic group after blacks and Jews and actively lead all levels of wokism. IIRC even Muslims vote for GOP at a higher rate.

    1. Lol, I am not any watcher. Just offering my 2 cents based on personal and extended family experience.
      Bjp support base is north KA lingayats and coastal UCs. Since yeddy was ousted, the cm leadership issue is unsettled. Further complication is intra lingayat tussle for cm post 🤦‍♂️. Further the present incumbent does not come across as competent. The untimely death of suresh Angadi stole another potential cm candidate from bjp. Otherwise the bench is pretty weak. Cue the HDK barb on prahlad Joshi …
      Could be a repeat of 2013 results.
      Modi + shah need to come up with a newer model of state leadership. KA is not UK or smaller state where CM can be a rubber stamp.

      1. If JDS becomes any weaker, Congress will win. If JDS gets any stronger, Congress forms a govt with JDS.

        Bottom-line: Congress wins.

        For the BJP the only saving grace is if it can “persuade” JDS to form a govt with it.

  98. https://theprint.in/politics/countering-bjps-hindutva-narrative-why-kumaraswamy-has-gone-after-peshwa-brahmins/1366949/

    I see the left/lib politics in Inida somewhat about turning against Brahmins and try to imitate TN model. TN has successfully given 69% reservation, unique and that model helps pit all against one kind of model. It is about gathering everyone against one, a kind of scapegoating target, a unique model. In this congress is in a bad spot, nehru-gandhis themselves come from that community, so they cannot command it, but will try to facilitate it with others.

    1. I dont think TN redux can happen anywhere. No central govt would be as weak as it was 1994. Plus the 1994 changes went under the radar, not sure if either BJP or Congress, who accedes to the demands, will then hope to be in power in the future. The only way is having a Union govt formed/headed by a state party which has no pull outside his state.

      1. https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/akhilesh-yadav-lauds-nitish-kumar-on-initiating-caste-survey/articleshow/97223426.cms?from=mdr

        https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/ramcharitmanas-row-akhilesh-backs-maurya-says-will-question-cm-adityanath-on-verse-2328393-2023-01-30
        Difference between me and you is that I believe in probability. There is non zero chance, I believe in creating many precautionary barriers in place to ensure that never happens. U believe u can divine what will happen and wont happen. Or already the the likely hood of what can happen.

      2. “Samajwaadi party suspends spokespersons Richa singh and Roli Tiwari Mishra from party for opposing the Anti Ramcharitmanas comments of Swami Prasad Maurya”

        1. LOL, u are turning into another Ugra.

          One has to differentiate b/w political uttering and policy backed by the state. The most radical anti UC party in N-India is RJD in Bihar, and even they did not make any policy change when they were in power.

  99. https://theprint.in/opinion/as-a-pakistani-i-dont-mind-pathaan-using-my-country-to-make-a-statement-in-india/1373677/

    ‘One could argue that this is not a new battle but dates back to the Partition of the Subcontinent in 1947 that drew a permanent line of suspicion between Muslims and Hindus in India. Growing up in Pakistan during the 1970s and the 1980s, one constantly heard about racial riots next door. But the Indian Muslims that visited Pakistan would vociferously defend their India. It was more than just the family on the train. I remember visitors like Shamim Hanafi, Jillani Bano, Quratulain Haider, Ismat Chughtai and many others that represented the urban-educated middle class (the same as Shah Rukh Khan), who would proudly compare their India with our Pakistan and boasting about their country which was secular and certainly more democratic than ours.

    Pathaan, I believe is an act of passion and great daring: looking the BJP government in its eyes and saying that many of the Muslim actors will not give up on India. It is also an effort to remind New Delhi not to see Muslims from one lens – be it Muslims of India or those from Afghanistan. Not only that Shah Rukh Khan played a secular Muslim, but had India rescued by an Afghan family that helps him fight the villain. Perhaps, the film was an effort to remind Delhi of how Kabul stood by the former since 1947 even against neighbour and coreligionist Pakistan. Surely, this is something of which hundreds of Afghan students denied an opportunity to return to India to study would like to remind Delhi.

    1. They got to him, put the screws on him for many days to this. Wait for one wrong answer and pounce. That seems to be the strategy. His one ambivalent answer on “rss” will now be used to attack him.

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