Open Thread Please keep the other posts on topic. Use this for talking about whatever you want to talk about.
70 thoughts on “Open Thread”
It reinforced within me rules that were written before I was born, rules that made my parents deem it necessary to abandon their real names and adopt American ones — Tony and Kay — so it was easier for others to pronounce, a literal erasure of culture that still has me aching to the core.
but one thing i want to say in all honesty: there were many of us who were mocked as smelly dot-heads or slant-eyed dog-eaters who weren’t really impacted. growing up is hard. ppl have different challenges.
asian americans in media and culture though are a particular type of asian american. tbh, they are the ones who experienced a certain racial and cultural alienation from insensitive and unthinking white america, but have leveraged it into a sort of social status in the competition toward marginalization.
then there are others. like me. or engineers in SV. people finishing med school somewhere. people who convert to christianity and marry someone in okhlahoma. or perhaps asian american slackers. we’re “sellouts.” and “whitewashed.” we’ll melt away in assimilation, and we won’t cry about it.
but you won’t hear our stories cuz we don’t write op-eds about it. it’s just life. not struggle. existence.
Sometime back I wrote about how the ‘Palestinian refugee’ issue is highly artificial . This Foreign Policy article only reinforces my opinion
According to UN definitions
Under Article I(c)(3) of the 1951 U.N. Convention and Protocol Relating to the Status of Refugees, a person is no longer a refugee if, for example, he or she has “acquired a new nationality, and enjoys the protection of the country of his new nationality.”
The UN first defined defines Palestinian refugees as “persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine during the period 1 June 1946 to 15 May 1948, and who lost both home and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 conflict.”
This was changed in 1980s to include all descendants of Palestinian refugees.
No other refugees in the world have such wide latitude and privileges with the UN. So the entire world is giving a livelihood to Palestinian refugees of 1948 and all their descendants, even though they have acquired different nationalities . About 750000 ‘real’ Palestinian refugees and all their descendants (which is unreal) are given unlimited support while 100s of millions of refugees world wide from 1948 get no such benefit .
Palestine has been Occupied by Israel since the Nakba. Israel continues to swallow up more and more Palestinian land. The Israel-Palestine issue is one of the most important humanitarian and geopolitical issues of the 20th century.
Complaining about UNRWA’s definition of refugee is highly misguided, to say the least.
“The Israel-Palestine issue is one of the most important humanitarian and geopolitical issues of the 20th century. ”
Which ended 18 years ago. Time marches on. At this point no one cares about the Palestinians other than some of them and a cadre of Jew hating European leftists. Another 18 years of intransigence by the Palestinians and the whole issue will be as obscure as the Schleiswig Holstein Question.
“The Schleswig-Holstein question is so complicated, only three men in Europe have ever understood it. One was Prince Albert, who is dead. The second was a German professor who went mad. I am the third and I have forgotten all about it.”
― Henry John Temple 3rd Viscount Palmerston (1784-1865), British PM and Foreign Secretary
It is not the Palestinians who are being “intransigent”. They have given up their claim to most of their historic homeland and are only demanding a state in the West Bank and Gaza with its capital in East Jerusalem. It is Israel that continues to move Zionist settlers onto Palestinian land. The entire world recognizes that the West Bank is Occupied Territory which has never and will never belong to Israel. Israel can annex the West Bank but then the Palestinians must be given voting rights, which leads straight to the One State Solution and the end of the “Jewish State”. There is no excuse for apartheid.
Someone who uses words like “Jew hating European leftists” has very little credibility, sorry to say.
Fauda is a great series
everyone is invested in the Israel-Palestine question; the intensity may vary but it’s a bellwether for so many different issues (the Crusades, Colonialism, Biblical Prophecy).
It may be remote for India & China because this is an “Abrahamic battle” but even they have some connections to the issue. The next generation of Zionist-Americans will probably be part Chinese depending on the heavy rate of intermarriage.
I just think the Schleswing-Holstein analogy is completely off. I am in the habit of comparing Kashmir to Alsace-Lorraine in South Asia and I imagine Israel-Palestine to be the Alsace-Lorraine of the World..
Comparing Israel-Palestine to be the Alsace-Lorraine has some validity. Some international issues creates cycles in which 2 parties get caught. It is not easy to come out of the cycle. Franco-German rivalry lasted over 150 years and ended with both parties realizing they were losers at the end of 2nd WW. Israel-Arab conflict may also last for 4 or 5 generations ,in the last 70 years only Arabs have come off worst . The cycle ends only when one or both parties realize they have lost out completely and lose any hope in continuing the conflict and end the conflict with whatever deal they can get , however bad it is. . That is game theory on international scale.
“Kashmir to Alsace-Lorraine” is a false analogy. After 1948 Line of Control, there is no substantial movement in the border. In 1965 and 1999 Pakistan started something and last completely. In 1971, the war was over Bangladesh , which Pakistan lost again. If India had been a strategic actor, J&K could have been solved completely to India’s satisfaction. India is too weak to impose a solution and strong enough to hold the current line. Pakistan is strong enough to send provocations using non-state actors but weak enough to do anything more. In Alsace-Lorraine case both parties were evenly matched so to say , both had enough populations, army size and large economies to support long term conflicts.
A rentier state cannot achieve any international position by using proxies
Biggest humanitarian issues of the 20th century was soldier deaths in the 1st and 2nd WW, massacre of innocents by Nazis, Communists and despots – the depths of which were Holocaust and Cambodian massacres, Gulags, movements of millions of people and displaced persons caused by wars. Compared to all this Palestinian exodus in 1948 was a small affair. If the Arab states had got their act together that could have been solved within 10 years. Biggest geo-political issues were Germany’s rise and fall , super-power rivalry , Cold War and Decolonization. On the whole Europe ceased to be the centre of world events. Again Palestinian issue was a sideshow easily manipulated and contained by big powers and superpowers. So there it stays now. In fact , Middle East is losing whatever hopes and interests it had 50 years back with the rise of Islamic State and Syrian/Yemen civil wars. World has other things to do than bother about ME , where despotism and fundamentalism is stronger than ever.
That is your opinion. The continuing Occupation of Palestine by Zionists remains one of the most pressing international problems of the day.
But is it really, Everyday i feel the world is coming more to terms with Israeli hold over that land. There seems to be a certain degree of normalcy now, rather than urgency. Palestine is probably the weakest it has ever been as even the Arabs have sort of trying to distance themselves now, just some rhetoric here and there. The ironical part is that it might be the shia folks (Iran/Syria ) who are probably fighting the Zionist earnestly. Just my view.
Kabir, you appear to be quite vested in this. I understand youth, but have you actually been to Israel and West bank? There is a lot of integration between the 2+million Palestinians and Israel. If the two nations split, it will be much harder for the Palestinians, in particular, the Christians. I understand youthful clarity, but as you grow older, reality is often unclear. If you were to see the west Bank-Israel interface on any given day ( i hesitate to call this a border) roughly a few hundred thousand people pour out to work in Israel; this is in addition to some 1.5 million Arabs who work in Israel. Often, people see this using the lens of Ind/Pak or with an all or nothing viewpoint. However, there are a few hundred thousand jewish housing in west bank (which is stupid given the poor water and wastewater infrastructure) and several hundred thousand Palestinian full time, part time and daily workers in Israel. Palestinian women work during the week in tel Aviv and return to their homes in west bank daily and in the weekends. I do not know how these two countries are going to separate out at any time in the future; present day Israel is filled with Palestinian and Arab labor like people from Mexico and Central America in US. If you want all Palestinians to go back to West bank and all Israelis to go back to the remaining Israel, then Palestine will collapse in a few days with no income.
I constantly see this as EElam vs. SriLanka. The entire Eelam youth population is elsewhere, working in the south, abroad; what will an independent Eelam do?
I know the youth want to go back to 1948 accord or some such thing. There is no going back. Too much has been invested everywhere to ever turn back history. I strongly suggest you visit present day west bank; integration will actually help the Palestinians now the issues of fertility, water are being slowly resolved. I do understand there is a whole trumpian nationalist element in Israel, but the impact on Palestinian day-to-day life is rather weak. Once again, please make up your mind after visiting the present but not living in a bookish past.
Many Palestinians are in favour of a binational state; the demographics would invariably favour them..
They already have one state (Jordan) why not add a second to their historic homeland (Palestine once encompassed both Israel and Trans-Jordan; I imagine Palestinians are a plurality in any such unified state moreso than Jews or Jordanians)..
Yes, I am vested in this– As a Muslim and as a human being. Palestine belongs to the Palestinians, not to the Zionists.
There are not two “countries” but an Occupation. Israel does not belong in the West Bank, neither do their Zionist settlers. It is against International Law to transfer your settlers onto territory that you are Occupying.
As for your suggestion that I visit the West Bank: Israel controls that territory. People with Muslim names and backgrounds or who have been active in pro-Palestinian activism are generally stopped at Israel’s airport and sent back to where they came from. So this is not a practical suggestion.
There is no going back to 1948. That would mean that there would be no Israel and the whole thing should go back to being an Arab state called Palestine. The international consensus is a return to the 1967 lines (Israel’s only legitimate border). The West Bank and Gaza would be a Palestinian state with the capital in East Jerusalem (Al-Quds). The rest is Israel. The settlers need to vacate Palestinian land or live there as Palestinians with no special Jewish-only roads or privileges. Palestinian citizens of Israel (“Israeli Arabs”) should have all the same rights as Israeli Jews (not likely given the new “Jewish Nation-State Law”).
“They already have one state (Jordan)”– I’m sorry. This is a Zionist argument, usually used to deny the Occupation of Palestine. Jordan belongs to the Jordanians, just as Palestine belongs to Palestinians. Israel has zero business in the West Bank, Gaza or East Jerusalem.
The choices before Israel are:
1) Two states for two peoples based on the 1967 lines
2) Apartheid (the status-quo)
3) The One-State Solution (Jews and Palestinians have equal rights. No more “Jewish state”)
Options 1 and 3 are acceptable. Option two is not on. There is no excuse in the 21st century for Occupation and Apartheid.
I’m in favour of bringing back the Ottomans..
india today genetics pieces are incoming any time now. saw my final copy in PDF.
no idea when the paper will get published though. but you’ll get the gist of the results.
Please do give a lay man reading as well for us lesser mortals.
the cover story (not mine) goes online on friday. mine online too same day.
there’s nothing too new.
Zack, I also favor bringing back the Ottomans. Anything is better than the status quo.
Kabir, please watch the first 13 minutes of this video of the the lioness of Muslimish and Pakistani diaspora Mimzy Vidz and her king Veedu Vidz:
They discuss Palestine intelligently. Perhaps from a certain point of view no one other than Palestinians and Israel have a dog in this fight, and maybe the rest of the world should leave them alone and let them settle it?
Kabir, many of your comments on this issue suggest that you have not deeply studied it. Many of your ideas are unpopular among the Palestinians, Fatah, Barghouti and Hamas. One of Palestine’s largest demands is work visas (day and long term) to work in Israel. And the freedom to export goods and services to Israel, conduct business in Israel, freely own property in Israel. Palestinians have a human right to trade, travel, tourism, business with Israelis. Palestinians also have the right to bring Israeli investors and businesses into the West Bank and Gaza.
Palestinians own more property domiciled in Israel than property domiciled in Palestine. Palestinians have the right to manage the land, businesses, stocks, financial accounts they have in Israel.
Palestinians have one major challenge. A lack of leverage in negotiating with Israel. Why? Because non Palestinian Arabs (other than Jordanians) and non Palestinian muslims hate Palestinians. I have been told by pro Palestinian activists that Jordanians do not like non Jordanian multigeneration .Palestinians too. When I asked why, they said they don’t understand why. Nonmuslims hate Palestinians too. Maybe this is unfair, but life is unfair.
Palestinians are still suffering for the crimes Arafat committed against Jordan in 1971 when he attacked the Jordanian army and tried to install himself as Jordan’s dictator. Palestinians are still suffering for the crimes Arafat committed against Lebanon in 1975 when he attacked Shiites, Christians and Druze . . . setting off the Lebanese civil war. Lebanon is still suffering from her civil war . . . Lebanon use to be a wonderland before 1975.
Tens of thousands or more Palestinians have joined Daesh, Al Qaeda and other Jihadi Islamist groups and mass murdered people from most countries around the world.
The only countries in the world that treat Palestinian residents well might be India, USA, Canada and Chile (there are over half a million Chilean Palestinians). Every other country appears to treat Palestinians like dirt.
Of course most Palestinians are good and have nothing to do with Arafat or the Islamist Jihadi Palestinian minority. Life is unfair. However, this explains why the rest of the world, especially the muslim world, refuses to help Palestinians.
Don’t condescend to me. I have “deeply studied” this issue and written about it. I am very well aware of the Occupation of Palestinian land by European Zionists. Jerusalem is holy to all Muslims and as such the entire Muslim world has stakes in this issue. Most decent human beings are on the Palestinian side of this conflict. It is not too difficult to see that Occupation and Apartheid have no place in the 21st century. Settler colonialism is not acceptable.
The issue is the Occupation, NOT anything else. The Zionists must vacate Palestinian land. Israel has no business in the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem. Israeli settlers must leave Palestine or live as residents of Palestine with no special rights for being Jewish. That has been the long-standing international consensus. That is what International Law is.
I don’t need to watch any YouTube videos to learn anything about this topic, especially from random people who are not accredited scholars (whether “Muslimish” or not). You will excuse me if I refrain from further engagement with you on this topic. We’ll have to agree to disagree.
We need to have a binational State with equal rights for all
I am perfectly happy with this. It’s called the One State Solution. It means the end of the “Jewish State”. Israel can be a Jewish State if a separate Palestinian country exists next door. Otherwise, it can be a democratic state of all its citizens. “Jewish and democratic” is an oxymoron.
Of course you have written about it. I meant getting in the weeds of what Palestinians and Israelis are discussing. For example studying the “Custodian of Absentee Property Law”. Since 1961, a formal institution, the Israel Land Administration (or, “ILA”) has existed to administer many of these “absentee” properties. In 1967, the “Eretz Israel” statutes pushed the policies into the annexed East Jerusalem sections.
The argument “military necessity” in court doesn’t count for much because the Israeli courts use a balancing test that turns of proportionality between security and human rights (see Ajuri v.The Commander of IDF Forces in the West Bank, 56(6) P.D. 352, 375; HCJ 619/78
“Al Taliyeh” Weekly v. The Minister of Defense, 33(3) P.D. 505, 512; The Jami’at Ascan Case, at p. 809; HCJ 3114/02 Barakeh, M.K. v. The Minister of Defense, 56(3)
P.D. 11, 16), et al).
Here’s the process, taken directly from Israeli court decisions (translated): “Under such circumstances, there is an administrative process of issuing an order of seizure and payment of compensation for the use of the land. The seizure order can be appealed to the military commander. If the appeal is rejected, the landowner is given a seven day period to petition the High Court of Justice. Since issuance of the orders, more
than eighty petitions have been submitted to this Court. Approximately half were
withdrawn in light of compromise between the parties.”
(Mara’abe v. The Prime Minister of Israel)
If they take the matter to mediation, half the cases are meted out through negotiation to the mutual satisfaction (or, dissatisfaction) of both parites. While they’re not always successful in court cases, they often are.
Often, however, these decisions aren’t clear cut: The justices find that the military commanders must reconsider and adapt their original plans within a short period of time. This begets other cases, which often drag out for years.
In other words, it’s a lot like other western democracies (except that it isn’t).
The Israeli Supreme Court continues to put these decisions online, including with English translations.
In any two state solution, Palestinians will continue to fight court cases related to property domiciled in Israel proper. Most of the wealth of Palestinians will continue to be in Israel. Palestine will continue to be incredibly closely connected to Israel
Like I said, the issue is the Occupation. The Zionists must first leave Palestine (West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem). Other issues will be sorted out later.
“Palestine will continue to be closely connected to Israel”– Well yes, there has been an Occupation for more than 50 years! Total separation is not practical, at least not in the short term.
What you have written is not even among the most important final status issues: borders, settlements, Jerusalem, right of return.
Don’t ever attempt to school me on Palestine. It is not appreciated. This is one issue that I am reasonably certain I know more about than most people. Decent people side with the Palestinians. The Zionist perspective is increasingly losing favor among all but hard-core pro Israel and anti-Muslim types.
For actual Palestinians getting back property or compensation for property domiciled in Israel is one of their “CENTRAL” demands. As is the demand of Palestinians from across the political spectrum to day work, long term work, student, religious and tourist visas to Israel proper. As is simplifying immigration for Palestinians who marry Israeli citizens or permanent residents. This is a major reason why negotiations have failed since 1967. In Taba 2001 these issues plus right of return killed a peace deal even though borders were almost finalized.
Have you internalized the fact that Palestinians own more property in Israel than Palestinians own in Palestine?
Gazans are dying in large numbers to assert their right to day work visas, long term work visas and student visas in Israel. Unless Israel concedes on these issues, how can any Palestinian government make peace?
” This is one issue that I am reasonably certain I know more about than most people” You know more than the vast majority of non Palestinians. Almost no one knows anything. There is no mutual understanding. This is a huge problem.
First understanding, then adjustment is automatic. Palestinians and Israelis lack understanding.
Israel is a settler-colonial state. It is Occupying Palestine. That is the central problem.
Once the Occupation is removed, all else will follow.
This is getting boring and repetitive now, so let’s stop.
Palestinians want apartheid?
Meanwhile in India:
“Reacting to these raids and detentions, Roy said that anybody who speaks up for justice or against Hindu majoritarianism is being made into a criminal.
“That the raids are taking place on the homes of lawyers, poets, writers, Dalit rights activists and intellectuals – instead of on those who make up lynch mobs and murder people in broad daylight – tells us very clearly where India is headed,” she added.
“What is happening is absolutely perilous,” she said. “It is in preparation for the coming elections. We cannot allow this to happen. We have to all come together. Otherwise we will lose every freedom that we cherish.” ”
You’ll love the Netflix series Ghoul. It is the wet dream of all the Arundhoti Roy types.
Is Radhika Apte a mascot for Netflix
I think Roy is a brave and noble intellectual.
Human rights activists have been arrested, which is a very serious issue. Arundhati Roy is one of the bravest Indians out there, speaking truth to Hindutva.
No respite for Uyghurs
ms roy is a stalinist to the core and her ideology is out of power, she has pretty much admitted to being a maoist to karan thapar in an interview in which she carefully said “if i were to admit then i would be arrested”. So that is the only difference, they believe in violent overthrow of democracy. That isnt speaking truth to power, theirs is an attempt to seize power for themselves. As to being brave, isis people who risked lives also are brave. She has been ostracized from the indian liberals as a whole. UPA govt in power also arrested left loonies as well. A point mentioned by shekar gupta, Indian journalist/editor who is married to a christian and is a skilled enemy of bjp. Freedom doesnt give right to seize other’s freedoms. However,I understand yet dont sympathize those who have shown a lack of ability to understand this.
Arundhati Roy is not the only person horrified by the arrest of human rights activists. Ram Guha was horrified too. But I suppose you have an argument to malign him as well. All those not with the Hindu Right must be enemies of the nation, no?
“Israel is a settler-colonial state. It is Occupying Palestine. That is the central problem. Once the Occupation is removed, all else will follow.”
If you were a Palestinian politician, would you run on this? If you did, I think you would lose. Gaza gets far more foreign aid every year than it collects in tax revenues. Palestine is extremely dependent on foreign aid in a way that is unthinkable in Pakistan or Bangladesh that receive little foreign aid as a percentage of GDP. Without foreign aid the schools, hospitals and police stations would close in mass.
Palestine is in a natural desert which lacks the natural water to support anywhere near the current population. Palestine is increasingly dependent on foreign aid funded water from Israeli ocean water desalinization plants. Palestine should not be growing as much food as it is either; but should be importing food from the rest of the world.
How will Palestine develop amazing products to sell to the rest of the world to pay for imported drinking water and food over the very long term?
Any Palestinian politician who wants a prayer of a chance to win office has to present a plan to grow the private sector and increase government revenues (much of which comes from foreign aid) for social spending.
The international community and Israelis need to promise a massive Marshall plan to give foreign aid to Palestine over the very long run in order for any Palestinian government to sign a peace deal. So far, this has not been offered. As a result the Palestinian Authority is likely to reject a peace deal even if Israelis agree to their terms on territory swaps of equal quality.
Kabir, you are much smarter than this. Don’t we need to increase understanding to have a slightest hope of a peace deal?
Israelis and Palestinians share a common heart, common values and common long term interests. What benefits Israelis benefits Palestinians. What benefits Palestinians benefits Israelis. They have a symbiotic relationship. To benefit one you need to benefit the other. We need a win, win solution. [That in my opinion will involve Israel giving Palestine large annual grants over the very long term.]
I don’t believe in this “common heart, common values”lovey-dovey stuff. I have made that very clear to you before. There is a country (Israel) which is Occupying another people and continuing to steal their land. Gaza is under siege by the Zionists who control the airspace, the borders, how much food gets in. The West Bank is full of Zionist settlers who really do not belong on Palestinian land. Israel has no interest in letting there be an independent Palestine. The status quo works very well for the right-wing Zionists who are running the show. They would love to annex the land and keep the Palestinians from voting. This is apartheid and it is unacceptable.
Palestinians need to be free from the Zionists before they can think of developing “amazing products”. Self-determination is the first order of business.
Let’s end this discussion. I have no sympathy or patience for pro-Zionist views. I don’t care about “understanding” Israelis. I simply want them to obey International Law and vacate all the land that doesn’t belong to them. My concern is solely for the Palestinian people, who have suffered Occupation for far too long.
“I have no sympathy or patience for pro-Zionist views”
I have no idea what Zionism means [and yes I have read hundreds of explanations of it.] To be pro Palestinians means that by definition someone is pro Israeli. Therefore you Kabir, are pro Israeli whether you acknowledge it or not.
“I don’t believe in this “common heart, common values”lovey-dovey stuff”
The rejection of the logic that people benefiting from each other’s success is one of the assumptions of post modernism. By contrast eastern philosophy and Western enlightenment (classic liberalism) make very different assumptions about how the universe works. I don’t even understand the logic about how we don’t benefit from the success of others and visa versa.
“and continuing to steal their land” I don’t know what you mean by this. Are you referring to the ILA confiscating property owned by Palestinians paying below market compensation? Or are you referring to property being domiciled under the Israeli legal code that should be domiciled under the Palestinian legal code? If it is the later; why do you assume that Palestinian economic agents wouldn’t prefer that their assets be domiciled by the Israeli legal code, subject to Israeli business regulations and subject to Israeli taxes versus being domiciled under the PA legal code, subject to PA business regulations and subject to PA taxes? [Personally I favor transferring the domicile of economic assets from Israel to the PA to increase the PA tax base. However, shouldn’t the PA also improve their regulatory and tax system to increase the enthusiasm of businesses and individuals to have their businesses and capital assets domiciled under the PA?]
With respect to Gaza, don’t you think the Israeli government would do what it could to economically empower Gaza should the PA take over Gaza?
“The status quo works very well for the right-wing Zionists who are running the show. ” I don’t think it is working out for them at all and that right-wing Zionists as you call them would benefit enormously from a long term peace.
“Palestinians need to be free from the Zionists before they can think of developing “amazing products”. Self-determination is the first order of business.”
Most Palestinian business people and administrators would probably regard this as crazy talk. Palestinians need to develop amazing products right now. Why should Palestinians starve and dehydrate? Palestinians live in a desert for crying out load.
The PA cannot sign a peace agreement without a plan for long term economic development for Palestine. Because if they do and Palestinians starve/dehydrate; the Palestinian people will kill them. This is why the PA is rightly requesting massive economic aid over the long term in return for agreeing to a long term final peace treaty with Israel.
Without understanding Israelis and Palestinians there is no way to help both of them. You have a soft and caring heart. You want them to succeed. You might pray for them to succeed. Understand them to help them.
“I simply want them to obey International Law and vacate all the land that doesn’t belong to them” Some Israelis want to do this and cut off all foreign aid to Palestine, end travel/work visas, student visas, end free trade, cut off water from Israeli desalinization plants, impose sanctions. This would destroy Palestine. Palestinians cannot and will not accept peace under these terms. Please be on Palestine’s side. You are a good person. You don’t want to see large numbers of Palestinian children starving and dehydrating in the desert.
“My concern is solely for the Palestinian people” . . . Very Good!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There is an Occupation. There is clearly a good side and an evil side here. The Palestinians are a stateless and Occupied people. The Zionists are an Occupying power. Israel is a settler-colonial state. I have absolutely no patience for settler-colonial states or racist ideologies that justify the theft of other people’s land.
As long as the Zionists vacate the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem, they can do what they like in Israel proper and I will not pay them one more second’s attention. My concern is their illegal presence on Palestinian land.
Praying and “understanding” is a ridiculous way to deal with an Occupation. Israel must be boycotted and forced to vacate each and every inch of land that doesn’t belong to them. Apartheid was not acceptable in South Africa and it should not be acceptable in Palestine.
I know which side I am on, and it is not Israel’s.
Great argument from Kabir miyan as usual.
Zios are insufferable. Can’t stand any zio esp that ugly man netanyahood. Zionist entity must go.
Jaggu, love you bro!
Stan in the Hood!
“that ugly man netanyahood”
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha! Bibi isn’t a charismatic handsome hot heart throb who gives our beloved mothers, aunts and sisters hot flashes. Now Stan boys on the other hand . . . oh La La! Even boys, men and grandmas get hot flashes when a Stan enters the house!
Stan is the Hood!
“There is clearly a good side and an evil here”
So Manichean? Allah transcends good and bad. Reflect carefully on the life, beingness (presence), love, light, culture and teachings of Brahma Jnaani Mohammed may peace be upon him, the most beautiful of pure ones Fatimah, the transcendent Ali, and the dancing divine romance of Hassan and Hussein. Feel them. They “LOVED” the children of Jacab (Israel.) The holy Koran gives Jewish sisters the holy lands. [Which I think they would share with their beloved Palestinian sisters.]
Love melts all. Heals all. As Maajid–leader of the global Ummah–says where the heart leads the mind can follow.
Palestinians and Isrealis are siblings; the children of Abraham. They are so alike, so together, so one people and yet so diverse. Which helps make them so beautiful.
“As long as the Zionists vacate the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem, they can do what they like in Israel proper and I will not pay them one more second’s attention. My concern is their illegal presence on Palestinian land.”
This is your position. Not the position of the PA, Fatah, Barghouti and Hamas. They strongly disagree with your position. They want, need and I think should get massive long term economic help (and vast numbers of work/student/religious/tourist visas) as part of a permanent peace treaty.
Praying and “understanding” is Mohammed pbuh, Islam, Sathya Graha, Gandhianism, Hindustan, pan Arya culture, central Asian culture. Praying and “understanding” is human.
Do you support reunification (remarriage) into a blended society–the romantic solution? If this is so, then I understand what you mean by Apartheid.
If you favor a two state solution, then apartheid is irrelevant as are the perspectives, concerns and treatment of the 23% of patriotic Israeli citizens who happen to have Palestinian heritage. If you favor a two state solution, how would you solve “right of return”?
You can only be on Palestine’s side if you are also on the side of Palestine’s sister Israel. They rise and fall together.
“Love melts all”– Please stop with the ridiculous cliches. “Love” is not helpful against Occupation and settler-colonialism.
Israel is not Palestine’s “sister” but an Occupying power which has stolen Palestine from the natives of the land–Palestinian Arabs. The least Israel can do is withdraw to the Green Line, which is its only legitimate border according to International Law. I understand today’s Israelis are not responsible for the fact that the colonial power allowed a “Jewish homeland” in a land with a majority-Arab population, with devastating consequences. Still, Palestinians are entitled to a state on 10% of their historic homeland.
You may believe in “praying and understanding”. I don’t think this is an effective way to remove the Occupation. BDS is much more practical.
“Two states for two peoples” is the international consensus. But since Israel is making that impossible, I am fine with one secular state which belongs to all its citizens. That state would have a Palestinian majority and would probably be renamed “Palestine”. This would be the end of the Zionist experiment. Israel’s best chance to avoid that is the Two-State Solution.
“Jewish and Democratic” is an oxymoron. Israel can be a “Jewish” state within the 1967 lines or a democratic state from the river to the sea. Currently, it is a democratic state for Jews and an apartheid state for Palestinians.
ram guha is not a journalist,he is a historian, call him and say x,y,z were arrested and he will be shocked and mumble something anyway. you might as well call many others as well if you think thats reasonable. He doesnt know much. shekar gupta on other hand is editor/journalist , he knows what upa did, its clear from and other news earlier as well, you suffer from source bias to begin with. even a person who is 90% disabled is arrested as well. Left wing extremism is the biggest source of violence in India, former pm mamohan singh declared it to be biggest internal danger as well, the former home minister chidambaram lauched hunt against naxals. Now that they are out of power, they see these people as allies and why not, if sitting pm is assassinated , its easy to guess who all would love that, including some here.
its really incredible to see the likes of varavara rao claim he believes in law. Wasnt the point for their support of maoists that law doesnt work, nothing is fair. To give support to banned organisations is a crime. Banned under UPA.
Exactly, Guha is a historian. Therefore if he makes comparisons to the Emergency, these have some validity.
I don’t know who on BP you think wants Modi assassinated. I dislike the man intensely but all I want is for him to be voted out and replaced with a Congress government.
It’s very easy to call people “maoists” for not swallowing the Hindu Right’s propaganda. You will come up with some way to malign all those who don’t agree with your agenda. I am completely done with you.
cut the crap, you dont know shit about maoists and clearly dont care, what matters to you is about who is opposing them. Ram guha is apparently a lapsed marxist by his own admission. There are many who would rejoice in his assassination and you would be one of them, admit to that atleast. This is different from active support for one. That would be a crime. Considering India did suffer assassination of a sitting pm and an ex pm, it would not be wrong in being careful.
such wink wink crime thinky has been considered before, like karan thapar did here.
“Only the sudden removal of Narendra Modi can stop this”.
Again, opinion that suits your bias matters to you. when was the last time you admitted you were wrong about anything? a decade ago?. Now that varavara rao has become a strong believer in law (comedy), let law lead the way. I dont care but for facts that many were arrested in earlier regimes as well. That is a fact, not an opinion. And mr ram guha and many others supported gn sai baba before as well for arrest inspite of him being 90% disabled, but guess what? the police found evidence and he has been convicted by the court including surprise surprise a jnu student as well. Again, these are facts and not as flimsy as ram guha or your opinion.
Thank goodness, their love of needing to give speeches breaks their cover.
I would not rejoice in anyone’s assassination. You know nothing about me if you think I would. I want Modi to go quietly into the night and disappear from politics. I think he is a horrible excuse for a human being, but I don’t want him dead. I make no bones about being opposed to Hindutva and believing in Nehruvian Secularism.
Ram Guha and Arundhati Roy have much more credibility than a random right-wing Hindu on the Internet. There is nothing wrong with being a Marxist (lapsed or otherwise).
By the way, the Indian Supreme Court has stayed the arrest of the five activists arrested on Tuesday. Perhaps the court is also full of left-wing anti nationals?
“It is not a coincidence that the five individuals targeted have been fighting for the rights of workers, Adivasis, farmers, women, Dalits and all those at the receiving end of government policies. Whether it is Sudha Bharadwaj, the IIT-educated mathematician who runs a trade union in Chhattisgarh and practices law in the Bilaspur high court, or Gautam Navlakha, who has tirelessly fought for civil liberties through his writings, or the 79-year-old Marxist poet Varavara Rao, it is a deep commitment to the cause of India’s marginalised majority that unites them. Arun Ferreira was earlier acquitted in ten UAPA cases after spending five years in jail. Vernon Gonsalves is fighting legally for the five activists who were jailed in an earlier round of arrests made in June.
If the police are allowed to get away with criminalising dissent in this way then no citizen should consider herself safe. Indeed, the purpose behind levelling terrorism charges against prominent anti-establishment voices, including lawyers, is to intimidate actual or potential critics and ensure their silence.”
let law lead the way. I dont care but for facts that many were arrested in earlier regimes as well. That is a fact, not an opinion.As court also convicted others before. Those who believe in seizing power and over throwing democracy and stand against freedom of their opponents are wrong, marxists are against freedoms of others, their track record is perverse. The single biggest violent group in India are the left. As to what court thinks, its judgement matters based on evidence the prosecution brings forth. All this takes time. And varavara rao is a communist, marxists are not human rights defenders. read ms roy on maoists executing people without even fair trial on her trip into maoist controlled areas. And no, one doesnt need to know you, one needs to judge on what positions you take to measure .
I resent the implication that I would be happy about anyone’s assassination. You assume too much.
I’m not a Marxist, though I don’t think there is anything wrong with anyone being one. The Marxists are not the ones lynching minorities.
I have been very clear on the fact that I despise the Hindu Right (just as I despise all right-wing groups). That seems to be what has really got you bothered.
Marxists lynch minorities all the time. Many Marxists are racists. Marxists have killed over 100 million people. There is an article touching this currently being edited at BP.
There are many reasonable marxists too; but they reject large parts of Marx’ ideology. Read the 50 articles written by a young Marx on India and then make the case that Marx isn’t anti minorities and anti darkie.
One reasonable Marxist interviews Glenn Loury (hero of the intellectual dark web and darkies all over the world) here:
By contrast to post modernist, Modi is openly and unapologetically pro Mohammed pbuh and pro Islam. He openly eulogizes Mohammed pbuh and Islam in beautiful spiritual moving stirring oratory. Modi is respectful of Jaʿfari jurisprudence (much the way our very own fine BP contributor Kabir is.) It is not an accident that Modi won about 40% of the muslim vote in the last Indian election. And despite allegations to the contrary not all these muslim supporters were sixers Ishmaelis, twelvers, Sufis. Modi is one of the most secular leaders in the world today.
“Right” and “Left” have almost no meaning in the current world.
“Modi is one of the most secular leaders in the world today”– Modi is responsible for a pogrom against Muslims in 2002. He represents Hindutva, which is an anti-Muslim ideology.
“Right and Left have no meaning in the current world”– I disagree. Right wing parties want to impose their visions of society on others, while left-wing parties believe in individual rights and in freedom for marginalized minorities. Modi’s BJP is definitely a right-wing party and is trying to destroy Nehruvian Secularism. It must be resisted and voted out in 2019.
Marxism is a legitimate ideology, though I personally believe in the welfare state. “From each according to his ability to each according to his means” is a remarkable statement. Stalinism and Maoism do not represent ideal Communism.
“Right wing parties want to impose their visions of society on others, while left-wing parties believe in individual rights and in freedom for marginalized minorities”
Right and left mean nothing at all. Eastern philosophy and European Enlightenment (inspired by eastern philosophy) “believe in individual rights and in freedom for marginalized minorities.”
“Right and left mean nothing at all”– We will have to disagree. I have zero sympathy for the right-wing (in whatever country). Like most liberal arts people, I am firmly center-left in my convictions.
fuck hindu right and modi and rss. I care for my rights and left is an enemy to my freedom. And I see convenient alliance of congress with leftist for sole purpose of coming to power. As for lynching is concerned, unfortunately you cant read local media where the news of other communities also engaging in violence is covered which occasionally is shown on english media.
CPI (Maoist) central committee member Varnan Gonsalves was ARRESTED (under @INCIndia) in 2007 for possessing 9 detonators, 20 gelatin sticks, walkie-talkie, grenade, and two firearms. He was CONVICTED (under @INCIndia) in 2013.
infact rajdeep and ndtv response to malda was recorded and put on youtube, removed now.
media isnt earning anyone’s trust.
anan is crazy in saying 40% muslim votes were won by modi. one of the persons arressted was arrested earlier in 2007 with bombs being discovered during search. Again, marxists have the worst track record on violence. In west bengal where they ruled for 30 yrs, they engaged in incredible acts of violence. over 50,000 people died in the state due to political violence. By comparison, between congress and bjp which contest each other directly in many states such violence is not found. Only state with such violence would be kashmir. Kabir knows next to nothing about India.
Typo. Meant to write about 40% of Gujarati muslims voted for Modi in the last election. That is if you believe polling. Modi is supported by twelvers, sixers, Sufis, liberal Sunnis and atheist Sunnis. Modi has more dificulty with conservative Sunnis . . . who have been brainwashed by post modernists and Islamists.
“In west bengal where they ruled for 30 yrs, they engaged in incredible acts of violence. over 50,000 people died in the state due to political violence. By comparison, between congress and bjp which contest each other directly in many states such violence is not found. Only state with such violence would be kashmir.”
This is obviously true. The state in India with the worst sectarian tensions and fissures are Kerela and Kashmir. The Marxists/post modernists in Kerala have worked on overdrive to sow dissension between different religious groups against one another. Divide and conquer.
“Kabir knows next to nothing about India”– So the writers of The Wire.in and Scroll.in know “next to nothing about India”? People (including Indians) are allowed to have left or center-left viewpoints, whether you like it or not. No one can argue that Ram Guha and Arundhati Roy don’t know about India.
“Only state with such violence would be Kashmir”– Kashmir is a Disputed Territory where people are fighting a freedom struggle against Indian rule. I understand Indian nationalists don’t see it that way.
Arundhati Roy knows little to nothing about India, Buddhism/Jainism/Sikhism/Hinduism/Sufism/twelverism/sixerism/Zorastrianism/Judaism/Christianity/religion/spirituality/life. She also knows next to nothing about minorities or darkies. Her mind has been colonized by the caucasion intelligentsia and post modernism. She has sold out.
Arundhati Roy is much more credible than a random person on the Internet. You don’t have to like her, but she is one of India’s greatest intellectuals and she speaks truth to Hindutva.
LOL! “Caucasian intelligentsia”– What a conspiracy theory! Whoever one disagrees with has been brainwashed.
The writers at wire, scroll are ofcourse on the left, most from humanities are. They do not even show the data, the scandal of modern humanities is that rather than to show the data and then make an argument, they make the argument first, hide the data . And if data is revealed, find a way to explain it away . If one is to believe the left, they are always in the right on every single issue for all time to come. They are never wrong, never will be wrong and if something doesnt work out, its due to those bad people. It is unfalsifiable worldview, not different from religion. Noam chomsky be their prophet. The guy was explaining away genocide by khmer rouge, engaging in whataboutry of east timor when one speaks of khmer rouge. Engages in conspiracy theory by saying soviet union is state capitalism.
Hence, the likes of vs naipaul , bernard lewis were more prescient than anyone on the left on Islam in last 50 years. Because they predicted either on past data or through what they saw. While chomsky finally conceded on islamic extremism with regards to ISIS, still blames the west for most of it though. But atleast its the first time I saw him admit to it in a long time since zia ulhaq.
In order to take someone seriously one first has to look at integrity, of honestly accepting that they were in the wrong. They dont, I saw naipaul change his views on India with time but left continues same of crap as they did 30 years ago. No change. I remember reading prabhat patnaik, a member of cpi in early 2000’s writing an article in defense of nehruvian economy stating, no one ever showed why the theory was wrong. To the left, it seems the empirical fact that something doesnt work isnt good enough to abandon an idea. That’s religion.
+1008 Stan in the Hood!
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