45 thoughts on “Open Thread – Brown Pundits”

  1. In previous few months, here at BP, were presented much new information related to ancient SA history. Just in brief – new information were related to the language (Sanskrit), SA toponyms, symbols, history related to SA neighbourhood, new facts from European history, archaeological findings, literature (e.g. ritual songs from India), mythology, law (Manusmriti) and finally genetics, specifically R1a1 origins, age and movements. Based on this information, two fundamental conclusions can be made that:

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    * Aryans were ancient Serbs. *
    * Sanskrit is old Serbian language. *
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    There are many secondary conclusions which can be made as a consequence of previous fundamental conclusions. It is expected that SA scholars in the near future start to discover missing blocks from SA and EU history. Because of fabricated European ancient history it was impossible to make a complete picture of SA history. Because of this, worldwide scholars were for 150 years unsuccessfully trying to give some answers. They made several hypotheses but all of them had flaws and missing links.

    For the beginning, researchers need to make a new approach. One of the first things is to adjust terminology and remove the meaningless term ‘Indo-European’ (previously Indo-Germanishe) which does not mean anything. This term when used in a language domain should be replaced by the term ‘Serbian language’.

    The second thing which needs to be done is to replace unspecified, generic terms, such as ‘steppe people’, ‘farmers’, ‘Anatolian people’, ‘west-Asian people’, ‘Indo-Aryan’, etc. All these tribes and groups of people had their names which they used to call themselves or been called by others. They also had their genetic haplogroups which movements could be traced in space and time.

    For some unexplainable reasons, certain topics have never been researched by both, Indian and Oxbridge scholars:

    – High degree of similarity/identity between Sanskrit and modern Serbian language
    – Almost identical ancient Serbian and Hindu mythologies
    – Enormous number of Serbian toponyms in SA (000s)
    – Genetic similarity implying that the oldest R1a was identified in Serbia migrated to SA where now live more than 100 million of descendants (one assertion says 16% of India’s population)
    – How archaeological findings in Vinca & Lepenski Vir influence SA history
    – Manu law (it was less presented here) applications in India and Serbia
    – Similarity between ancient Serbian meritocratic rank system and Varna in India
    – Final destiny of Aryans in SA
    – Origins of great SA epics (Rig Veda, etc) and their relationships with ancient migrations
    – Credibility of official European history, especially aspects that influenced SA history and ignoring the fact that false premises cannot give the right conclusion.

    It’s time that new generations SA scholars reject old prejudices, dubious political agendas, unbalanced focus on former colonial academics and inferiority complex toward them and to turn a new page in a research of SA history starting from the vast of evidence which are visible with a naked eye.

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    1. Appears to be a close link between Serbia and Arya and Sanathana Dharma.

      Do you think that people frequently traveled back and forth between both regions more than three thousand years ago? If so, how many years did the trade and flow of people occur over?

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    2. “Sanskrit is old Serbian language.” — Milan , Shouldn’t you actually compare ‘Vedic Sanskrit'(a more archaic dialect) with Serbian instead of Sanskrit ?

      “Origins of great SA epics (Rig Veda, etc) and their relationships with ancient migrations” —From what i understand , problem is that Rgveda doesn’t show migration from west to east (atleast according to Talageri ). Not discounting the genetic evidence but what about the possibility that composers of early RgVeda might not have arrived from north-west ? Another question is that did north india really have no language prior to ‘serbian migrants’ given it had IVC, an advanced civilization. ? It seems that there appears to be no trace of any pre-existing language in north india. All the geographical features, rivers etc of north india have IA names. (I doubt tibeto-burman would be a candidate here).

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      1. Thanks for your reply tee-dee. I think you wrongly understood some of my sentences or I maybe wasn’t clear enough. I didn’t think that migrations were described in Rig Veda, I was thinking about their origin, before or after alleged migrations. As you could see I put this as an item for research. I think that it wasn’t researched so far because usually OIM proponents (e.g. Talageri) discuss ancient texts trying to find in them proofs that migrations did not exist. I did not say that not any language existed in North India before Aryans, I don’t know how you came to this conclusion. It would be very stupid to make such assertion.

        Also, I don’t know how you know that all North India toponyms are local and that none was brought from somewhere else? I already mentioned before (I will again) some toponyms. How can you explain identical names of mountains and rivers in Serbia with toponyms in India? There are so many of them.

        Finally, can you make your assertion and offer some answers? For example, if Aryans existed or not, where they come from, which language they spoke? How do you explain similarity btw Serbian and Sanskrit? Is there any language which is closer to Sanskrit then Serbian? What about mythology, the same names of gods, swastika in Serbian alphabet 5-6000 BC, etc? Can you answer who are Indo-Europeans? Would you be interested to do some research? All the best.

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      1. America never colonized India.

        Isn’t it a double standard to claim that liberals should feel free to criticize injustice in the Islamic world, but then get upset when a liberal criticizes injustice in the Hindu world?

        “Smash Brahminical Patriarchy” lacks nuance, but it’s not like Brahmins are an oppressed group, so how is this is a big deal even if the message is wrong? Would a “Smash WASP Patriarchy” sign be problematic?

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        1. “but then get upset when a liberal criticizes injustice in the Hindu world” — Nothing wrong with criticism but the blame should be placed on the people who do most of the injustices you are referring to (which would be the zamindars/land owning jaatis lot of who come under the BC/OBC tag) .

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        2. Fraxinicus what is the difference between oppressor and oppressed? Both are sovereign. Both are potentially very powerful. Both are potentially very wise. Both are potentially free. In eastern philosophy, although you don’t have to accept this, both are divine.

          “Patriarchy” doesn’t make sense in a femnist shakti matriarchal society. Females and males can never be equal. Females are far superior.

          India has a major problem with male misogyny, which is a very different thing. But this is fast being dealt with. I love #metoo !

          The caste system doesn’t exist for the most part among India’s 300 million plus middle class and in India’s urban areas (35% to 40% of India).

          Many of the most powerful and privileged people in India are technically classified as STs, OBCs and SCs. It is mostly a scam. Since many of the Jatis in it could just as easily been classified as Vaishya, Kshatriya and Brahmin. These have long been political designations.

          Similarly many of the poorest and least educated Jatis in the country are not designated as STs, OBCs and SCs.

          To quote from wikipedia:
          “The Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes comprise about 16.6% and 8.6%, respectively, of India’s population (according to the 2011 census).[7][8] The Constitution (Scheduled Castes) Order, 1950 lists 1,108 castes across 29 states in its First Schedule,[9] and the Constitution (Scheduled Tribes) Order, 1950 lists 744 tribes across 22 states in its First Schedule.[10]

          Since the independence of India, the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes were given Reservation status, guaranteeing political representation. The Constitution lays down the general principles of positive discrimination for SCs and STs.”

          I last read the British accounts of this when I was a child. There were no four Varnas in the English system. They conflated Jati, Varna, tribes, and much else; and muddled it all up. Most of this was made up by the English as a means of imperialist colonialist divide and rule, deconstruction, de-legitimization.

          Among the collaborators with the English was the young imperialist colonialist hegemon himself, Karl Marx.

          It is time for this colonial imperial hegemonic oppressive exploitative system to dissolve. Replaced by affirmative action based on socio-economic status alone. [I would add a special race based affirmative action in India for people with enough Sub-saharran genes but that is me.]

          Fraxinicus, what caste is PM Modi? Is he oppressed too?

          ” Would a “Smash WASP Patriarchy” sign be problematic?”
          Incredibly. Because the weakness of caucasian males in one of the world’s greatest challenges. The stronger, more meritocratic, higher capacity, more competent, smarter, more healthy, more powerful, wiser caucasian males are; the more everyone else benefits. We all have a symbiotic relationship. We share a common heart and have very similar values and long term interests. We are all as one.

          Love all. Serve all.

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          1. Forgot to add.

            Darkies do not have an inferiority complex or resentment with respect to caucasians. Darkies and caucasians “BE FRIENDS.” Not just friends, but best friends. Not just best friends, but “BEST FRIENDS FOREVER.” BFF!

            The post modernist conspiracy to turn us against each other will fail. Darkies and caucasians forever!

            #Stan is the Hood.

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          2. “I would add a special race based affirmative action in India for people with enough Sub-saharran genes ” — What’s the logic behind sub-saharan race based affirmative action ? Btw, Siddis (the ones with sub-saharan genes are OBC if i am not wrong 🙂 though they could be STs in some states ).

            “what caste is PM Modi? Is he oppressed too?” — He was an ‘oppressor’ till the 1990s 🙂 but became ‘oppressed’ when his jaati got the OBC tag in mid 1990s.

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        3. Forgot to add:

          As the great Buddha of our age said: “एस धम्मो सनंतनो” or Esa Dhammo Sanantano. This is Sanathana Dharma.

          In our Arhant’s name, master of Turin, Aryaputra Murshid Sayyid Jagguji,
          # Stan is the Hood

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  2. Razib, on the Unz Review you claimed you believed Indian/South Asian IQ, corrected for malnutrition, is somewhere around 90. Do you still stand by this?

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    1. seems plausible. my confidence interval on this stuff is wide.

      y?

      (also, that’s the AVERAGE…there is variance across pop….indian americans are not regression back to an IQ of 90 from what i’ve seen for example based on father-son eduation correlations)

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      1. Why would it be so low, or is that also not factoring in poor levels of education in South Asia?

        Is this an estimate of ALL inhabitants of the subcontinent, or just the Aryan-Dravidian “core” population? If the former I can more understand the reasoning for your estimate.

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        1. I thought mid-90s was goood enough. I would take that with open hands(or open mind 🙂 ) anyday. How high were you expecting, Indo-carib ?

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          1. I realize I’m likely in the minority on this particular issue here, but I don’t believe that intelligence (or IQ) is genetically determined and unequally distributed by ethnicity. As such I see no reason why the IQ of South Asia (at least of the Aryan-Dravidian “core,” regardless of caste) shouldn’t be the standard 100 when nutrition, disease and education are corrected.

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          2. // I don’t believe that intelligence (or IQ) is genetically determined and unequally distributed by ethnicity //

            Too many assumptions made above. I think we would need a good, explanatory scientific theory to answer all the questions below before making any statement like the one you have made above.

            1. How do you define intelligence?
            2. Is it quantifiable on a single scale meaningfully?
            3. How much is it a function of prior training, i.e. how Bayesian is it?
            4. Do standardized IQ tests measure intelligence defined in (1) above?
            5. Why can’t propensities that contribute to intelligence be genetically inherited, i.e. what’s special about it compared to height or skin tone?
            6. Is the genetically inherited gap, if any, unbridgeable in principle, say, by training or technological augments?

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        2. Slapstik, my question is why would dark-skinned people (assuming intelligence has a heavy genetic component, and there remains little data corroborating this) be selected AGAINST intelligence? Why would dark skinned people supposedly select for gene variants that decrease intelligence, whatever that is? This is the theory championed by the far-right HBDsphere, but where is the causal evidence backing it up?

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          1. @Indo-Carib

            Need to be careful here. Correlation is not causation. E.g. ~25% of suicides in the world happen in high income countries (US, Canada, Europe etc), which contribute ~10% of the world’s population. Not just that, males are twice as likely to commit suicide here compared to the rest 90%. Does that mean men of European descent are genetically predisposed to suicidal behaviour? Of course not and the true reason for this correlation must lie elsewhere.

            In my opinion, most (if not all) arguments for intelligence are hand wavy BS at this point. If that weren’t true we could have coded up AGI by now.

            My own personal view is that human intelligence has a strong recursive feedback component, i.e. it is dependent on prior information and training. As the saying goes: neurons that fire together, wire together. Some of those priors we are born with, i.e. genetically encoded information. But a lot of it is training and acquired.

            Some fairly bright AI theorists conjecture that the difference of intelligence is really a difference of memory capacity (based on the argument around Classical Turing Machines). So if we can suitably augment memory I/O we can increase our creative intelligence.

            I am not willing to say if IQ is inherited, because a standardized IQ test is an empiricist’s metric to judge intelligence – basically rating a black-box based on what answers it gives to your questions – as opposed to understanding exactly how the black-box actually works. And I have seen no proof that the standardized IQ questions abstract away something basic about cognition.

            Is IQ inheritable? I do not know. I venture prior propensities that contribute to intelligence are genetically inheritable, but the jump from IQ to intelligence is a v big one.

            And what about the statistical differences between scores of people across “races”? It needs to be strongly controlled for culture. E.g. if we have a large sample set of genetically African kids raised in Chinese households compared against Chinese kids raised in African households and still see significant gaps then I would call that result worth a lot of thought.

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          2. Indo-Carib,

            There is growing evidence for correlations between IQ and DNA that I wish to write about. So far about 15% has been mapped. Many of the leading geneticists and neuoscientists think that we will eventually map something on the order of 60% of IQ with a large standard error.

            Most geneticists and neuroscientists regard this as good news. IQ (an imperfect estimate of G or general intelligence) has mechanical technical causes that can modified by science.

            We can inexpensively change the DNA of living organisms with CRISPR. And soon will. This alone can sharply boost the IQ of humans.

            We can also change the mechanical system of the body in other ways:
            —AI computer brain interface with high bandwith
            —bio-engineering
            —brain electro therapy (which many of my friends have gotten . . . they simulate the effects of meditation)
            —brain sound therapy (which simulates the effects of ancient systems of sound, music, song, mantra, naad)

            Humans are evolving into super-humans or Gods.

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          3. Indo-Carib,
            Like I have mentioned in Sri Lanka dark skin is considered to be smart.

            Quite a few of my contemporaries who were darker than the avg Sri Lankan did extremely well academically.

            Do South Indians (on avg darker than N Indians) do better as academics (book learning).

            One, I remember very well from school. Tall, very dark, superb athlete and rugby player. In looks very Nilotic African. (looks kind of light skinned now)
            Straight from school a schol to Cambridge
            https://www.umassd.edu/directory/dkasilingam/

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          4. “Do South Indians (on avg darker than N Indians) do better as academics (book learning).” — sbarrkum, I don’t have the data but from my personal experience of seeing IIT grads( well , not sure if you know but IIT undergraduate entrance exam is arguably the toughest in the world , it used to be even tougher ) ,there is a high proportion of Telugus (most of whom i would call dark brown) there.
            If you simply go by literacy rate , Tamizh Nadu, Andhra Pradesh and Kerala are defintely much better than UP/Rajasthan but that is simply due to better governance policies in south indian states compared to north.

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          5. Hello td,

            It might be the case that we Telugu people have a significant presence in the IITs but you have also to take into account the fact that we are typically trained like such a hell lot of crazy for the JEE (or whatever its new name is) exam. You also note that the olden descriptive pattern of the JEE was tougher than the current patterns but I want to emphasise it a lot more. In my own personal case, I think it would have been very extremely difficult, probably impossible, to get some sort of rank in an old pattern JEE, though I could manage some okay-ish number in the MCQ-pattern exam with a high amount of hardwork and training though I am not a genius-level-IQ person like many others in my class (mine is probably quite average-ish or only very slightly above average IQ). It would probably be useful to see how significant the Telugu presence in the IITs was, during the era of the early, old pattern of the exam.

            My general impression regarding the IQ business in the context of the Telugu-speaking regions is that probably Telugu Brahmins (like Indian Brahmins in general probably) might have higher average IQ compared to all others and I have seen such extraordinarily genius people of Reddy-caste background (curiously, many of these were from the Telangana and Rayalaseema regions (one well-known example is the Turing award winner Raj Reddy); may have something to do with the arid geography of the Deccan?) as well. I have anecdotal evidence for the presence of extraordinary genius in people of almost all caste backgrounds (as far as I know) though. I am very satisfied and ultimately very happy that I simply had the fortune (accompanied by the sometimes inevitable mixture of jealousy, awe, wonder, immaturity, panic to self-preserve, etc. etc.) to interact with all these guys in my life so far.

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          6. “fact that we are typically trained like such a hell lot of crazy for the JEE (or whatever its new name is) exam. ” — Good point , i came to know about the extremely rigorous coaching they went through much later but during my 1st year at IIT , i was surprised(even impressed) to see a high proportion of Telugus.

            “You also note that the olden descriptive pattern of the JEE was tougher than the current patterns but I want to emphasise it a lot more. In my own personal case, I think it would have been very extremely difficult, probably impossible, to get some sort of rank in an old pattern JEE, ” —
            Yeah , i wrote about the tougher old pattern of JEE in my reply to sbarrkum. Thankfully , i didn’t have to appear for the subjective pattern :).

            “I have seen such extraordinarily genius people of Reddy-caste background ” — Yes, there were a lot of people with Reddy surnames where i studied. I don’t know about Telugus brahms but at that time i knew very little about jaatis and zilch about their histories

            “I am very satisfied and ultimately very happy that I simply had the fortune (accompanied by the sometimes inevitable mixture of jealousy, awe, wonder, immaturity, panic to self-preserve, etc. etc.) to interact with all these guys in my life so far.” — Lol , likewise. Awe, wonder , respect mixed with a little envy in my case.

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  3. Kabir bhai, if am not wrong , there’s reservation/affirmative action/representation in Pakistan also, right ? Is it also there in the private sector jobs ?

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    1. td, minorities are treated like crap in Pakistan. Including twelvers, sixers, Sufis, Christians (despite or maybe because of their money), Jews (they got thrown out now), Hindus, Sikhs, Ahmedis, Pashtuns, Balochis, Sindhis. Punjabi conservative Sunnis with Pakistani psychosis are top of the hill.

      To here quotes from one of Afghanistan’s greatest martyrs and heroes about Punjabis:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kxpz7BL2bLc
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJDD-XeBjFg

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  4. Before this OT expires…

    Anyone knows about Rob’s whereabouts? Last time he was seen sniffing around Byzantine’s postmodernists frontiers.

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  5. Meanwhile folks, news reports are saying that an american missionary who went to preach christianity has been killed by the sentinelese tribals of andaman islands.

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  6. “John Allen Chau: Family forgive tribe who killed American”

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-46300459

    Here are 50 odd humans huddled in a small dot of land, trying desperately to save themselves *from* Jesus, and asshole missionaries still have gall to “forgive” them. Fucking preposterous Semitic religions. The world of revealed religion is really bizarre.

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    1. This is the family working through their grief and does not bother me.

      Why would he risk infecting the locals with diseases they don’t have immunity to by going to the island?

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  7. Since I have anyhow written two other comments at least the first one of which is not crazy unlike my usual comments these days, I would like to write off one more. I have recently come to know through my mother about this instantaneous rise to fame all over Andhra Pradesh and Telangana, of this poor rural lady named Baby from the East Godavari district of Andhra Pradesh who probably works as an agricultural labourer (I don’t know for sure; but it is certain that she worked as an agricultural labourer as a child).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6afiz7t4iY

    Needless to say, she has no formal training in music at all except imitation and self-practice. I cannot evaluate the quality of her singing but it certainly seems she can sing better than a lot of people. She has also attracted the attention of a few big-name music producers like A R Rehman.

    Reminded me of this other lady called Chandralekha who shot up to fame instantly some years ago but in Kerala. This lady’s similarly completely unexpected fame-grabbing gig involved her singing so effortlessly well a certain Malayalam song, while holding a little toddler of hers in her left side.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMu0_c1gkNQ

    Ms Chandralekha has since then sung for some Malayalam movies as well as some albums, it appears. Examples: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVEfuRpkd3g and others

    We have a phrase in Telugu called maTTilO mANikyaM, ‘gem in soil’. Probably these two women are good examples of the above category. Anyway, I just wanted to share this info, if anybody doesn’t happen to know about it so far. That’s all. Thanks very much to y’all!

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  8. Santosh, how many of these very successful south Indian Jatis are technically STs, SCs, OBCs? I bet a lot of them.

    Hope the concepts of STs, SCs, OBCs are banned from the Indian constitution and Indian law.

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    1. Hello AnAn,

      I don’t know about the Kerala lady but the Andhra Pradesh lady probably has a Christian Mala background (though I don’t know if she belongs to the class called the merugu mAla, meaning ‘advanced mAla’ because though she seems like a Mala-Christian-background person from the Krishna-Godavari basin, she doesn’t seem like an upper middle class person definitely); please see the section “Mala Christians” in this Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mala_(caste)).

      I don’t know much about the other topic and the huge debate surrounding it, so I can’t comment anything worthwhile.

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  9. https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/11/23/the-uighurs-and-chinas-long-history-of-trouble-with-islam/

    Good article, but this quote at the end, “But the long history of Islam’s persecution points to older, deeper problems in the Chinese worldview” is ridiculous. The article explicitly stated earlier on that it was deep problems in the Abrahamic worldview that prevented the full integration of Christianity and Islam into Chinese civilization. This doesn’t justify reeducation camps, but if you follow a religion that encourages the exclusion and persecution of the infidel, there’s only so much toleration you can expect for yourself.

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      1. To me the last line was even more bizarre

        “Most worrisome, it is these very traditions that the state is promoting as a way to bolster its legitimacy, instead of building a pluralistic society open to different faiths, beliefs, and convictions”

        Are they talking about China of an alternative universe or something?

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  10. Interesting story, I still dont see how the end game is going to be for all this(what factors will play a role). Trump will leave, china will continue as earlier, Is anything in next 100 yrs going to change any of this. Technology has been a very important factor, demography is another, access to propaganda is another, trade, relations with neighbors. I suppose having allies is an important one, something for china to work on.

    China might prop up autocracies too, they will need technology.

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