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13 thoughts on “Brown Pundits – Episode 3, genetics”
The man just said what I was repeating for several months here – about Western Oxbridge scholars, about falsified European history, about Aryans, about SA scholars and their irrational inferiority complex previous mentioned, etc, etc, etc. I guess very soon we will start seeing the resolution of 200 years empty stories.
Regarding SA genetics and researches in this field – we had for example last week one referred article with about 50 authors. They were talking about migrations, steppe, farmers, Anatolian groups of people without any reference on their names, languages, culture. Genetic researches without this and disconnected from history do not have any meaning. No-name genes are coming and going, mixing with other genes, disappearing. Using meaningless terms (Indo-European people and language) they try to at the end explain the people movement (‘steppe people coming to crossroad, one stream goes left to India, the other goes right to Europe and that is the language link between them).
Recently, I wrote about almost hundred Serbian toponyms in India (I will write another several hundreds). I will write soon about hundreds of Serbian toponyms in STAN countries (Uzbekistan, Kirgizstan, Kazakhstan, Afghanistan, etc). It is another proof that Stan is a Serbian word.
For now, I will cite Serbian toponyms in Tibet. I would ask these 50 guys to explain how these toponyms got there (the name of cities, villages, rivers, lakes, mountains, places, etc…):
Nano, Čen, Božan, Milovan, Ban, Čujan, Ljudin, Čedo, Današi, Brama, Lujan, Dosjela, Jarlin, Makjen, Sila, Jarak, MILAN, Manjka, Korčuka, Lišan, Laertan, Sareb, Mili, Dragor, Jadigol, Konjčak, PoljaČa, Kerun, šiban, Aca, Dobjela, Luka, Banmu, Malin, Zobana, Kuna, Bančana, Sarbilin, BaČun, Božan, Lanan, CiČa, Bago, Sabije, Samba, SRBI, Maro,Lagun, Janda, Sjambra, Srbica, Omča, Rivuča, Rupelj, Jujbjela, Sočujla, Moba, Bjeda, Čaja, Vanka, Kaki, Idar, Čuila, Tevatan, Samča, Dodan, Konča, Danoski jam, Bujča, manadin, šar, Laco, Sjegan, Kamča, Srbando, Tan, Bušila, Čaklja, Barilan, Tarčun, Bučindo, Mutič lake, Ukča…
I have another 1000 Serbian toponyms in Tibet.
How is it possible that (50) guys who conduct genetics research can see even the movement of one group of people from one side of the mountain to the other but they cannot see such movement of people which left several thousands of toponyms in SA region, Tibet, Turan, China, etc…???
Thanks for the low-down Razib and for taking my question, and to Zack for verbalizing it in his posh RP 🙂
So, turns out that the most surprising thing about Indian genetics is also rather intuitively Indic. As the old Hindi aphorism goes: jo nahiiN jaatii vo jaati hai (lit. that which does not go/change is caste).
I can almost see the pan-Dalitists of India jumping triumphally on that genetic information and opening a new front in the post-Independence caste/culture wars. The eternal is-ought confounding. The Brahminist arseholes have lorded over for too long. They had it coming 🙂
I think we did everyone’s questions so that was nice.
I don’t have an RP accent; more TD (taxi driver 🙂
Yes I was worried about the ethical and societal implications of all of this information..
Yes a *lot* of ground was covered by Razib.
NB: RP is not necessarily Queen’s plum-in-the-mouth English. More middle-class SE England prestige register. Wouldn’t be surprised if some taxi drivers speak it too…
Yorkshire accent – think Geoff Boycott – is my favourite (unlike cockney as bhRAtr Fraxinicus prefers). Closely followed by Edinburgh Scotch.
Ancient history is a political powder keg in modern India unlike any other place in the world (except maybe Israel). What the fathers didn’t think much about the daughters and sons go berserk over.
Typo: Just realized I wrote bhRAtr instead of the correct bhrAtR. My apologies to Fraxinicus.
(BTW prakSinikasa means “one who causes terrible destruction by pounding” in Sanskrit :))
30 year stay in Britain has not cured me of my SI accent, which has been impervious to all rewards and punishments. Perhaps that’s is a reflection of my adaptability or absence of it.
I think I still have a residual South Asian inflection much more so than LV..
Podcast 3 was much better than 2nd (where interviewer took up a lot of time with personal anecdotes setting up subjects). BP blog posts are usually quite good & comment threads often even better; thank you.
Balochistan comments made me think of the following. At an ancient temple (dedicated to Melqart, who is also called Baal of Tyre) in the maritme city of Tyre (modern Lebanon) the priest reportedly told Herodotus (Book 7) it was founded ~2,300 years before by ancestors who came from what we now call in English the Indian Ocean (“Erythrean Sea”).
Herodotus called those inhabitants Phoenician (derived from Greek “phoinix” ). The writing called Phoenician is deciphered & inscriptions are known. Podcast mentioned there are Dravidian speakers in Balochistan & yet also, on the other hand that most Baloch are not primarily “aryan”. I wonder if there might be some commonality in there either way, with language nuances (&/or seemingly improbable genetics) to a general region along the Indian Ocean.
No disrespect intended. My memory of ancient Indian text translations is not precise, but think there may be another parallel spanning the “Erythrean Sea” (Indian Ocean) to add.
Tyre’s lore is they came from the Indian Ocean & Melqart was their 1st king; he founded the original royal line. Melqart was considered a god & in particular the god looking out for migrants/travellers. (It seems Melqart was appropriated by others over time, but these may have created distortions from the original which are not my interest here.)
What I think may be pertinant is how the custom in Tyre was every spring to burn Melqart’s effigy on a sacramental pyre. The belief was this would “re-awaken” their god; Melqart was said then to be re-born through fire. Maybe I am confusing a fire rite common to others, but it struck me as a tradition the pundits here would know if possibly brought from (say?) Balochistan.
Another detail that may sound familiar is that the people of Tyre described themselves (in written & presumably oral form) by sequentially listing their forebears. They defined themselves by who they came from originally (1st ancestor being most significant), although (if am recalling correctly) would always state around 15 distinct ancestors. I don’t know if this parallels somewhere anyone here at BP finds coincidental (maybe I am confusing that with ancient Indian lore’s geneological tradition).
Not quite an “Out of India” issue I realize. Podcast put the early Holocene (non-Anatolian) farmer migration from “Zagros” region as ~ 9,000 years ago. Might Melqart’s travels from Indian Ocean to found Tyre been from that stock. Melqart’s temple was already in Tyre when (as podcast states) the Indo-Aryans only got close to the Indian Ocean around ~2,000 to 1,500 BCE.
“Notes on the emergence of Indic civilization” (03 Dec.)
brought out comment (bharat’s) about rig veda discussion of human sacrifice. Which brought to my mind something & since I do not want to hijack that new post with more of my speculation will simply add to what wrote here.
The people derived from Tyre were known (as per Diodorus) to have early on had a custom of sacrificing noble sons; who were later replaced by young children. When Alexander the Great besieged Tyre elders were known to have considered, & decided against, offering human sacrifice; Tyre stuck to immolating it’s usual Melqart effigy at traditional re-awakening festival (& lost).
Also in that 03 Dec. newer original post (mentioned above) Razib commented r1a is not a western Iran marker. And the recent podcast #3 declared Indians traded in Sumer/Babylon regions. Which makes me wonder if Melqart the founder of Tyre, who legend has starting from Indian Ocean, simply went overland.
I have been positing a legend of Melqart in Tyre as coming from unspecified western Indian Ocean
coast using Balochistan as an example. Now I’ll say where a genetisist might look for any clues; such as (if I understand the context correctly) that r1a haplotype.
Melqart became a god of settlers, as Tyre became a mother city to settlements. Strabo wrote: “… Tyre … colonies sent to Libya, & Iberia, & even outside the pillars ….” Without historical context here are the places with the remote possibility of a genetic trace.
Gadin (Gades, modern Cadiz) was founded around 1,100 B.C.E. supposedly in response to a dream. Sacred objects were brought there from Tyre & it’s Melqart temple reportedly held bones of his. Incidently, from descriptions of the observant Melqart worshippers it is known they would (should) not eat pork.
Lixus (on the west coast of Morrocco) pre-dated even Gadin (modern Cadiz). It had a Melqart temple.
Another settlement founded with Melqart cult objects was on the Iberian mainland opposite the Straits of Gibralter. The place is known as Carteia & an heir of Melqart (called Archelaos in literature) was the person responsible.
In north Africa the woman Dido (Deido, the wanderer) came from Tyre to found Carthage (Qarthadasht, the new city). Legend says her Melqarti high priest husband (Acherbas) was killed by the ruler (Pygmalion). So then she took cult items of Melqart to sanctify the new city (I think a bit earlier than 800 B.C.E.).
Sardinia (in it’s south west) had a sacred site where a dedication was found to Melqart of Tyre. Sardos (a Greek name rendering) is said to have sailed to the island from north Africa. He was reportedly a son of who was called (in Greek) Makeris, which is considered to be a rendering of Melqart’s name.
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