Open Thread – 08/08/2020 – Brown Pundits

By Razib Khan 359 Comments

I’m traveling with my family a lot this week. Please stay under the control, because if you get out of control I’ll be more kludgey in my response than usual.

Also, to be frank, I would appreciate it if every thread doesn’t devolve into arguments between guys you can imagine whacking off to physical anthropology image plates illustrating racial types from National Geographic in 1930. As they’d say in 1930, everyone beyond Calais is a wog.

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359 Replies to “Open Thread – 08/08/2020 – Brown Pundits”

  1. 1) there’ a podcast i haven’t put show notes up about. please subscribe or check the libsyn site. too busy

    2) i have unbanned advik as he has promised not to troll. just in case people are wondering. he emailed me privately

    1. Just throwing it out there * non serious comment
      Haryanis/Punjabis are Sons of Indra as Razib would say!
      Extreme high levels of lactose tolerance and ability to build strong body on vegetarian diet. Boys from those parts drink over 1-2 milk daily.

      1. I echo Gaurav that these groups have insane levels of lactose tolerance, but that is the case for almost all of the northies in my experience. I would drink ~1-1.5L of milk daily until last year (and until i was in Delhi), I used to run a lot, and never had a problem(i’m in my early 20s and ancestrally from the Himalayan regions). So i believe northies are blessed in this regard:)

        1. Yup.. I have never drank more than half litre milk. I probably should get the lactose test done if I wish to indulge in serious milk drinking.

  2. attitudes toward athletics vary a lot across societies. the west somewhat inherited the greek idea of physical exertion for men. but the Chinese don’t think that exertion is good, so upper-class men were kind of ‘soft’. in India wouldn’t being an athlete mean becoming kala? so perhaps?

    1. I don’t think there’s a negative attitude to physical exercise. I think a lot of tradition has been lost or less prevalent now. Gada swinging, wrestling had been part of nearly every community in India.
      Interestingly the term “Akhara” is mentioned in Mahabharata in context of Jarasandha’s akhara.

      I think Jats effectively continued this tradition as compared to other parts of the country. Where as other regions some how just lost it or it became less prevalent

    2. Yeah I read it in “Silk road, Susan whitfield” that the soldiers from Xinjiang usex time make fun of upper class Chinese men for being soft and used to force them to buy weak horses.
      What a turn of events for Xinjiang.

    3. “in India wouldn’t being an athlete mean becoming kala? ” — and yet, we have one of the “whitest” states of india churning out the most olympic atheletes :). Now, from what i have observed , a lot of families especially the ones who live in poor states of india , sports was/is considered as a “waste” of time , it’s something which would affect education and won’t bring any kind of economic mobility at all given the little government funding for sports in the poor states. As they say ‘ Padoge likhoge to banoge nawab, kheloge kudoge to hoge kharab ‘. (translating in english – keep studying and you will become a nawab, keep playing and you will become a bum).

      1. “in India wouldn’t being an athlete mean becoming kala? ” — and yet, we have one of the “whitest” states of india churning out the most olympic athletes :).

        yes, but that’s one reason why they’d be chill. naturally light skin means they don’t get that dark outside

    4. Razib,
      ut the Chinese don’t think that exertion is good, so upper-class men were kind of ‘soft’.

      Manual work is improper less by caste than by the exaggerated development of “leisure class” concepts and no compensating stimuli in the culture for mechanical dexterity and experimentation. The fact that work in connotations of honest toil and enterprise has never been sanctified in either Hindu or Buddhist civilizations and that no value is place upon juevenile “tinkering” and exploration cannot be laid only at the door of the caste system. Anointment of the government cleark is a product not only of caste, but feudalism, colonial administration, and the ethos generally.

      Caste in Modern Ceylon, Bryce Ryan, 1953
      https://archive.org/details/in.gov.ignca.7514

  3. 1.
    A prediction for 2050:
    Sindhu Puja will be a big festival and we’ll see lakhs of people throng to Indus to pray.

    2.
    I don’t know a lot about French foreign policy so a bit curious on why Macron decided to visit Beirut.
    Do the French have an unusually close relationship with their former mandate or is this more of a PR exercise by Macron to project himself as a statesman?


    1. I don’t know a lot about French foreign policy so a bit curious on why Macron decided to visit Beirut.
      Do the French have an unusually close relationship with their former mandate or is this more of a PR exercise by Macron to project himself as a statesman? ”
      Answer: both. We French have had a special relationship with Lebanon since the XVIIth century when King Louis XIV sent wheat to Maronites in a time of famine and unexpectedly became the “protector” of Lebanese Christians. Of course Macron is using an opportunity for a PR exercise: he wants to be reelected and wants to project himself as a statesman respected by the world.

  4. Dear Razib,

    I had a question related to the WOG concept, at least peripherally.

    What ancestral components do true “White” people in Europe, (both NW and Southern Europe), have, that is different from the components that MENA people, both Persians, and Arabs, and North Africans possess?

    I’d imagine there are quite a few components that dont overlap with/are not found in MENA communities that are found in Europeans or “White” people.

    I keep hearing a lot of talk of White Nationalism these days, and I would be curious to learn if everyone from the streets of Trafalgar Square to the streets of Cairo and Tehran is equally “White” — the genetic data should be the smoking gun that settles this stupid assertion. Otherwise everything is just subjective ingrouping and outgrouping and it seems “White” people can lay claim to “inventing and discovering” most of the BS in this world.

    Thanks again.

    1. Colder and drier weather is better for human cognition and productivity.
      Very hot weather decreases cognition,productivity and increases fatigue,insomnia etc and thus can have a very negative impact on a society.

      So groups living in colder and drier weather/climate(North East Asia,Middle east,Eeurope etc) had historically greater influence?

      1. Except East and South Asia, along with North Africa and the Fertile Crescent/Mesopotamians had the biggest role early on, and these areas, with the exception of North East Asia weren’t exactly cold and dry. I am also not positive about the origins of civilization in China, but I am pretty sure it was concentrated in the Southern part of China, so again the cold adapted hypothesis just goes by the wayside. My question is, what were White people/the ancestors of White people doing when these civilizations were at their prime, considering they all existed well before White people came into the picture?

        Also, are shit-for-brains KKK White Nationalists even a little correct when they state “Whites are the Superior race, for they have always been the most innovative and ingenious. We always invented and discovered everything first!” I ask, because while the contributions of East and South Asia are obviously not a part of their discussion, can they lay claim to the intellectual and scientific heritage/civilizations of the Middle East and North Africa solely by virtue of any shared components of ancestry? Genetics can at least give us an objective answer. I realize the issue is far more nuanced, but I’d appreciate it if Razib and others could chime in. Thanks for your insights.

        1. Looks like someone is yet to read up Taleb’s take on country based IQ. He effectively dismantled the whole concept of average IQ of a country. Its only the IQ eugenics enthusiasts who make such average IQ of country claims

          1. @NM what do you think about this book: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Accomplishment

            It’s premise is basically this: “White people” invented and discovered literally everything of worth under the Sun. It claims to have an “objective” way of “proving” this premise by collating lists of seminal contributions by doyens of their respective disciplines, to the exclusion of literally every single Asian scientist/philosopher and almost all MENA scientists. I am surprised the book was even published TBH. Without the innovations of China alone where would we be today?

            Also, I agree with the flaws of IQ testing, both the scores and the averages, particularly when looking at entire nations. Its funny how people often claim India’s average IQ is in the low 80’s based on a so-called “objective” test that claims to “accurately measure” cognitive ability. Have they ever considered that malnutrition and what amounts to appalling poverty have something to do with poor performance? And what about cultural differences and literacy rates? The Flynn effect should raise India’s average IQ by 15-20 points if past data is anything to go by.

          2. @APthk I have not read it. Yeah if it can be proved that the Chinese were white, Ancient Indian scholars were white. Then sure, everything under the sun is invented by people who lived “cold” climates.
            Not sure, but looks like Brown pundits on this site will have to get together to fight the absurd claims of white pandits

          3. The flynn effect means that the increase in IQ will be across all population groups thus outdated norms can inflate results.

            That being said I think India’s actual average iq is likely more like that of Argentina like in the low to mid 90s which would be over half SD more than the commonly cited estimates.

        2. It is actually a fact that cold weather is better for productivity; it improves cognition and reduces fatigue.

          The western world became so advanced only after a specific time period. Why not before? Their advancement has to do with stolen resources and wealth from colonized areas,the crusades,climate, occultism,advanced printing technology which helped to spread education (the White Ottoman empire prohibited using this technology within their territory,except for jews, due to fear of mass unemployment: this decision slowed down spread of science and education in the entire eastern world).

          You can google the Abrahamic concepts of “Anti Christ” and “Al Masih Ad Dajjal” which have amazing similarities with the modern Anglo-centric Western World

          1. @NM what do you think about this book: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Accomplishment

            It’s premise is basically this: “White people” invented and discovered literally everything of worth under the Sun. It claims to have an “objective” way of “proving” this premise by collating lists of seminal contributions by doyens of their respective disciplines, to the exclusion of literally every single Asian scientist/philosopher and almost all MENA scientists. I am surprised the book was even published TBH. Without the innovations of China alone where would we be today?

          2. “It is actually a fact that cold weather is better for productivity; it improves cognition and reduces fatigue” — @StraightGuy, how cold and how hot are we talking about here ? Doesn’t too cold weather cause vasoconstriction of arteries ? What about the lack of sunshine here which has other benefits besides vitamin D production ?
            Neanderthals were pretty much cold-adapted, what civilizations did they build ?

          3. @td
            21 degrees to 22 degrees Celsius(with a relative humidity of 30 to 60%) is good for productivity:
            https://www.shrm.org/hr-today/news/hr-news/pages/toohottoocold.aspx
            You can expect these as room temperature in a moderately cold country. Hot countries have much higher room temperature on an average.

            As Temperature Goes Up, Cognitive Performance Goes Down:
            https://www.cambridgebrainsciences.com/more/articles/as-temperature-goes-up-cognitive-performance-goes-down#:~:text=A%20hot%20environment%20has%20been,impaired%20more%20than%20simple%20tasks.

            Hot weather negatively influences the brain:
            http://www.brainblogger.com/2018/06/18/how-weather-influences-the-brain/

            https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-temperature-cognition/thinking-skills-may-suffer-on-hot-days-idUSKBN1K130A

            https://www.bustle.com/p/why-do-i-feel-less-productive-over-the-summer-theres-a-scientific-reason-for-your-weather-induced-brain-fog-9817153

            Humidity & productivity: https://allthestuff.com/relative-humidity-and-work/

            Historically, staying warm in colder climate was much easier than staying cool in hot climate e.g.: fireplace

            Also hot weather=more insomnia+more dehydration+more fatigue+reduced sleep quality+reduced cognition etc

            and more humidity=feeling hotter

            Colder weather is responsible for “less going out of home and more intellectual thinking at home” and increased quality of life

            A series of studies showed brain response time and focus improved during winter months;In Some Brains,the Stress Response To Cold Can be Euphoria:
            https://www.bustle.com/p/5-ways-extremely-cold-weather-can-affect-your-brain-15920911

            The nature is,was and will be always cruel,unfair and unjust. This is why we need to rely on the God and the Day of Judgement and force these beliefs on our offsprings to numb the eternal pain of survival.

          4. @td
            21 degrees to 22 degrees Celsius(with a relative humidity of 30 to 60%) is good for productivity:
            https://www.shrm.org/hr-today/news/hr-news/pages/toohottoocold.aspx
            You can expect these as room temperature in a moderately cold country. Hot countries have much higher room temperature on an average.

            As Temperature Goes Up, Cognitive Performance Goes Down:
            https://www.cambridgebrainsciences.com/more/articles/as-temperature-goes-up-cognitive-performance-goes-down#:~:text=A%20hot%20environment%20has%20been,impaired%20more%20than%20simple%20tasks.

            Hot weather negatively influences the brain:
            http://www.brainblogger.com/2018/06/18/how-weather-influences-the-brain/

            https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-temperature-cognition/thinking-skills-may-suffer-on-hot-days-idUSKBN1K130A

            https://www.bustle.com/p/why-do-i-feel-less-productive-over-the-summer-theres-a-scientific-reason-for-your-weather-induced-brain-fog-9817153

            Humidity & productivity: https://allthestuff.com/relative-humidity-and-work/

            Historically, staying warm in colder climate was much easier than staying cool in hot climate e.g.: fireplace

            Also hot weather=more insomnia+more dehydration+more fatigue+reduced sleep quality+reduced cognition etc

            and more humidity=feeling hotter

            Colder weather is responsible for “less going out of home and more intellectual thinking at home” and increased quality of life

            A series of studies showed brain response time and focus improved during winter months;In Some Brains,the Stress Response To Cold Can be Euphoria:
            https://www.bustle.com/p/5-ways-extremely-cold-weather-can-affect-your-brain-15920911

            The nature is,was and will be always cruel,unfair and unjust. This is why we need to rely on the God and the Day of Judgement and force these beliefs on our offsprings to numb the eternal pain of survival.

          5. Cold adapted people have paler skin with lesser melanin which helps them to absorb vitamin D much more easily.

            Also, extreme cold can be bad and depressive but extreme heat is even worse as I have explained in a comment that is being monitored and will be hopefully watchable after some hours.

          6. @td
            21 degrees to 22 degrees Celsius(with a relative humidity of 30 to 60%) is good for productivity:
            https://www.shrm.org/hr-today/news/hr-news/pages/toohottoocold.aspx
            You can expect these as room temperature in a moderately cold country. Hot countries have much higher room temperature throughout the year.

            As Temperature Goes Up, Cognitive Performance Goes Down:
            https://www.cambridgebrainsciences.com/more/articles/as-temperature-goes-up-cognitive-performance-goes-down#:~:text=A%20hot%20environment%20has%20been,impaired%20more%20than%20simple%20tasks.
            Hot weather negatively influences the brain:
            http://www.brainblogger.com/2018/06/18/how-weather-influences-the-brain/

            https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-temperature-cognition/thinking-skills-may-suffer-on-hot-days-idUSKBN1K130A

            https://www.bustle.com/p/why-do-i-feel-less-productive-over-the-summer-theres-a-scientific-reason-for-your-weather-induced-brain-fog-9817153
            Humidity and productivity: https://allthestuff.com/relative-humidity-and-work/

            Historically, staying warm in colder climate was much easier than staying cool in hot climate e.g.: fireplace

            Also hot weather=more insomnia+more dehydration+more fatigue+reduced sleep quality+reduced cognition etc

            and more humidity=feeling hotter

            Colder weather is responsible for “less going out of home and more intellectual thinking at home” and increased quality of life

            A series of studies showed brain response time and focus improved during winter months;In Some Brains,the Stress Response To Cold Can be Euphoria:
            https://www.bustle.com/p/5-ways-extremely-cold-weather-can-affect-your-brain-15920911

            The nature is,was and will be always cruel,unfair and unjust. This is why ppl need to rely on the God and the Judgement Day and force these beliefs on their offsprings to numb the pain of survival.
            I reposted as it didn’t appear.

    2. This an important question. I would doubt if there is a universal “white race”. The genetic diversity among all “white looking” people would be huge.
      Will be good to hear what Razib has to say on this.

    3. What ancestral components do true “White” people in Europe, (both NW and Southern Europe),

      this question is “not even wrong”

      most your questions re: admixture can be answered by looking in the supplements of the reich lab papers.

      perhaps i’m wrong but a lot of your comments i get the sense you want me to say jats are the whitest people in the world or something. this a question and answer unworthy of deep thought, because it’s like asking what the most fun toy in the world is (something my 3.5 year old son did just ask me).

      1. Dear Razib,
        I’m sorry if I came across that way, not my intention at all. I accept that Jats are Brown and WOGS when compared to Europeans, and I’ve even said in the past that I consider my people to be part of Indian civilization.

        I’m actually trying to push back against White Nationalist Narratives such as those asserted by Charles Murray et al, who claim that all things that are worthy of civilization and crucial to science came from “White” people, and they often do this by counting everyone from the Europeans, both Northern and Southern/Eastern/Western, to the Jews, both the Ashkenazim to the Sephardic and Mizrahi, to the Northern Africans and Arabs, Levantines, Caucasians, and Persians as “White”.

        I’d greatly appreciate it if you could perhaps give me a short answer as to why this is genetically unfeasible and inaccurate, (if that is indeed the case) Would genetic clusters/genetic distance be the reason such claims dont pass muster? Or would ancient components that differ among such varied groups be the reason? Maybe both?

        For instance if all these groups don’t cluster right next to each other and are genetically separated on a cline, how can they all represent a homogeneous “White” group? Or if NW Europeans have tons of WHG admixture that is absent in MENA countries, how can MENA people be “White”? Then there are differences between Europeans themselves, and between Europeans and Ashkenazim as well. That sort of thing, I’m just looking for some incisive commentary on what smoking guns exist that completely destroy this narrative of civilization always being created by/developed by a group of people labeled with the title “White” when such a group doesnt even exist in the genetic sense.

        I just wanted to know why everyone from London to Lucknow cannot be considered “White” in light of the genetic evidence. I’m a little sick and tired of White Nationalist Narratives that portray them as the saviors and founders of the Modern World, as if they did everything in a vacuum, and nothing of substance came before them. I simply want a more equitable, balanced and accurate portrayal of the world.

        Please let me know what you think.
        Thanks.

  5. Had some questions:
    1. @Razib Are modern-day Palestinians(Christians,Muslims etc) ancestrally/genetically the same as Israeli jews? Are their ancestors Israelite/jews? Which other groups are the descendants of ancient Israelites?

    2. What is the definition/understanding of gods/goddesses in mainstream Hinduism? Do these Hindu Devs/Devis have specific roles in executing certain natural phenomena? Like: a specific god maintains life on earth, another god maintains water cycle etc?

    3. Do Hindu nationalists have any plan for eliminating Christians right now just as they have plan for eliminating certain other groups? Or will they think about it later?

    Respectful & precise answers appreciated.

    1. “Do Hindu nationalists have any plan for eliminating Christians right now just as they have plan for eliminating certain other groups? Or will they think about it later?”

      Are you for real? Or are you so disconnected from reality (I understand there is a virus floating around, but do go out once in a while) that you make such absurd claims.
      Ok lets take it step by step. Looks like you have some inside details. Can you please explain what steps have already been planned about elimination?

      1. Dont take me wrong. I am not trying to judge/criticize anyone. I just seek the truth.

        It seems that SOME/many (not all) Hindu nationalists are waiting for an ethnic/religious cleansing by means of genocide.I see it even in common Indians in discord who post popular meme supporting ethnic/religious genocide and want revenge for some historical injustice (according to them).

        1. So the whole basis of your argument is “memes”? I was right, you do need to expand your social circle. I am right winger but have friends from other religions, I argue with many of my friends who are left wing.

          Also may be start reading some other sources of news apart from NYT, CNN. Please visit India if you have not, instead of making up your mind based on memes

        2. What Hindu nationalists want doesn’t matter.
          Hindutvavadis can get away with having a perceived negative attitude towards Muslims coz large swathes of society in India (as well as world) currently Harbor anti muslim sentiment – albeit mild, moderate or extreme.
          Such a sentiment against Christians doesn’t exist on populous – so even if they wanted they wouldn’t be able to pull it off.

          Remember 2014-15 so called Church attacks in Delhi- Modi was quick to denounce those attacks and share stage with Christian leaders saying don’t worry. He hasnt done that with any lynching or perceived anti muslim actions. Every now and then he does give moderately anti lynching statements but never does fully on backfoot

    2. 1. @Razib Are modern-day Palestinians(Christians,Muslims etc) ancestrally/genetically the same as Israeli jews? Are their ancestors Israelite/jews? Which other groups are the descendants of ancient Israelites?

      a substantial portion of their ancestry like the ancient Hebrews. though a minority, especially for muslims, but not exclusively, is more recent gene flow. i’d estimate 60-80% ‘caananite’ ancestry, which is the same as ancient israelites

      1. “i’d estimate 60-80% ‘caananite’ ancestry, which is the same as ancient israelites”

        So, the ancient jews/children of Israel who invaded and stole the land from Caananites have mostly Caananite ancestry?

        And if modern Palestinians are genetically mostly Jewish then from a biblical and Jewish POV, modern Palestinians are also the “chosen people of God” and the God gave them the land of Israel !
        Evangelical Christians would change their mind if they come to know these…

        Do Palestinians have more Jewish ancestry than modern Jews since modern Jews are prolly mixed with Europeans ?

        1. I think the current archeological and genetic consensus is that Jews emerged out of Canaanites rather than being invaders/migrants. At best only the Levites(priestly tribe) might have come from Egypt and imparted their traditions into the collective memory of the emerging Jewish group. Sort of like how most Americans celebrate Thanksgiving despite only small proportion being descended from the Pilgrims. Canaanites themselves were a diverse lot. The Philistines for example (from whome the name Palestine comes) were most likely migrants from Crete.

  6. Just wanted to expand on a point I made in my earlier post about the Ram Temple issue. Since some posts are made on the basis of what I feel are simply the media representations, I thought this would help the divergent views to effect an understanding.

    Modi, BJP and the RSS have truly mastered media management and imaging. I don’t think people really understand how they’ve weaponized the Liberal Media’s condemnations for their own electoral gains. The uniform attack that all of the Liberal Media had begun has in fact consolidated BJP’s electoral gains for the long term. Had the Liberal Media been more discerning and nuanced in its dealings with Modi and the BJP, things would have stood differently today. On top of that, when you’re only real national alternative is the Congress, run by the utterly inept line of Nehru-Gandhi dynasty, well the people have no option but to go for Modi. But what really clinches it for them is when they see the otherwise suave and well qualified liberal intellegensia promoting the same hated Nehru-Gandhi Dynasty, despite their incompetence now being a settled fact for the majority. On one hand they see an ascendant Modi, reveling and embracing the local culture and traditions, and then a flopping clique of Anglicized Elites who have never withheld their acquired disdain for local culture, religions and traditions, there is no real choice other than Modi for an average middle class Indian. Modi makes the majority feel relevant, powerful and potent, while any attack on him seems as if an attack on the very symbol of that majority. This is the angle that BJP plays off every righteous criticism that comes from anywhere, especially from Liberal and Foreign sources.

    Gradually the average middle class Indian has become extremely dismissive of foreign and liberal criticism of Modi, almost no statistic, fact or editorial affects them anymore. Everything has become a viewpoint, and all are there to push India down. Many Indians seem to have internalized the idea of India being a ‘Pagan/Native’ stronghold in the face of repeated Abrahamic onslaught, thus there is an unrelenting doggedness that is seen in them when defending even the real gender/caste/racial/class issues of the country. Nothing native can be inherently wrong, perhaps misinterpreted, but never wrong totally entirely, that is the ideology that most now espouse. And though they will not really do anything more than vent on twitter, at the end of the day, their regular life’s limitations will result in unlimited support for Modi on the election day.

    The Liberal Media has become akin to the boy that falsely cried about the wolf. They have sensationalized, exaggerated and sometimes downright fabricated facts in their criticisms so many times that now when genuine issues such as Kashmir’s internet access, Rising Communalism, North East’s demographic status, failing Economy etc, seem just other debate fronts, and not real problems that need serious scrutiny. BJP and Modi have monopolized Nationalism and Patriotism.

    If you critique Modi, you’ll strengthen his already massive electoral base, and if you praise, you’ll end up attracting and validating more towards him, and even be rewarded with a fast growing circle of nationalist scholarship and journalists who have become a sort of demagogue class, with very profitable implications. Since Modi’s rise, I have noticed the cropping of several Hindu/Nationalist centric literary festivals, and while these are yet very small compared to your Jaipur Lit Fest types, even in the liberal bastion of JLF, the Right Wing intellegensia that once toured only the sets of Times Now and Republic (Very Right Wing Channels) have become fixtures. The sheer reach of pro-populist front has overwhelmed the traditional liberal order.

    At the end of the day, now when even most of the Congress leadership have in fact shifted to soft Hindutva, groups and communities who once made the mistake of ignoring the BJP’s rise and sticking to the Congress and the Delhi Elites, are finding themselves alarmingly short of any national representation. The entire ecosystem is being dismantled, and while this earlier monopoly of though what wrong, a new monopoly is rising, and this time its roots seem way deeper in national psyche than what had been a largely western imported ‘Idea of India’, which is now seen as a colonial construct based on the compromise of the Majority, while BJP espouses the ascension of the Majority as the dominant narrative builders in their new vision of Bharat rather than India.

    Time will tell the rest.

    1. “thus there is an unrelenting doggedness that is seen in them when defending even the real gender/caste/racial/class issues of the country.”

      How does this explain Hindutva’s (and in general the anglicised Hindus’) radical departure from traditional Hinduism on caste and to a lesser extent on gender?

      “a new monopoly is rising, and this time its roots seem way deeper in national psyche than what had been a largely western imported ‘Idea of India’”

      This sounds awfully like crying wolf. IMO it’s not a monopoly but a recalibration.

      One can say that the elite discourse in India has now become more diverse because previously un-represented Hindutva views are now also given space. The commies and lefties still do continue to have their own spaces and these are only increasing, albeit off a smaller base.

      Even wildcard ideologies like libertarianism are getting more adherents now. They are extremely over-represented in policy circles even if they haven’t achieved any mass acceptance.

      The only losers are heterodox liberal-ish people. They have to choose from among soft-Hindutva, socialism, or go rational new atheism types like that Tony guy.

      Eventually, a new class of liberals and conservatives will emerge.

      1. @Prats
        1. The ideological truth of caste/race/gender discrimination have been glossed over by the Hindutva brigade. And while in the short term they can hide, the germ of those evils remain, and the first saplings of it can be seen in the internet Traditionalist or the ‘Trad’ trolls that have gained currency for their bonker ideas.
        2. There is a monopoly, and it is to do with super-imposing a cultural monolith of Hindu majority over the entire country, whereas for Jains, Buddhists and Sikhs, who are attuned and derived from the local culture, it is not a problem, but for the Christians and the Muslims, this new umbrella will demand submission of their cultural identity. Their ideological extensions into their public and cultural discourse and lifestyles will have to be curbed to accommodate this monopoly.
        3. I would prefer a true diversification of our intellectual discourse, however, apart from this transitional phase, the Hindu and other nativist ideologies have entirely taken over the discourse. The odd libertarians are very much an irrelevant nuisance, as they are in the USA and the West. In terms of serious policy, soft Hindutva is the new Centre, while Liberalism is on its death gasps, taking crutches of Radical Islamists and Communists, who are themselves fast on the path of national annihilation.

        1. 1. Sounds very conspiratorial. ‘Trads’ have always existed in the society. The reason you hear about them now is because there is active opposition to them from their own ideological brethren.
          In any case, Hindutva’s success relies on mass subaltern support. If trads win then they lose political power.
          I don’t see any situation in which trads can succeed politically without significantly diluting their own views to be more acceptable.

          Abhinav Prakash’s writing would be good to look at.

          You can have your fears. But a sense of proportion is important.

          2.
          “but for the Christians and the Muslims, this new umbrella will demand submission of their cultural identity. Their ideological extensions into their public and cultural discourse and lifestyles will have to be curbed to accommodate this monopoly.”

          Can you be more specific? What exactly do you think will happen? And why would it necessarily be bad for the country?

          3. What do you mean by true diversity?
          Commies and leftists are only increasing in number and have complete control over universities/pop culture. Most of your younger celebs routinely sound out SJW and anti-Hindutva talking points.

          Libertarians are a nuisance but they are active in the policy space. It was just an example.

          We will also being to see a speciation of the views on the right. So diversity will come. Just not the kind of milquetoast liberal variety we had earlier.

          India had a lot of fake liberals or fiberals as SuSwamy called them. They were of no use. These people are facing a reckoning. I don’t see what’s the big deal about that.

          India has a lot of problems. But there’s no need to fear monger.

          Progress is not linear. There’ll be push and pull. And often you don’t realise you are in a period of progress because you only look at short term trends.

          1. I am yet to meet a full fledged trad of our generation. Most trads are from older generation. The trads from our generation are 90 Hindutva + “Brahmins should be at the top” guys. They are just here to make hay while the Hindutva sun shines. Since in the larger society no one really gives two shit about them, and Hindutva likes to humor them, from time to time.

            Agree on commies and lefties, but i forsee the same failures for these younger SJWs that befall-ed thier older generation. Lack of street power. Unlike older left which could “loan” the demographic power of caste parties or Congress, the SJWs of todays are top heavy. Which produces this curious mixture of strengthening the Hindutva forces (AKA JNU and NYT articles) while anything substantial at the bottom, where it matters.

          2. “Unlike older left which could “loan” the demographic power of caste parties or Congress, the SJWs of todays are top heavy.”

            It’s a good thing IMO. The lefty loonies don’t get to make policy but they get to make their point. So their useful ideas about welfare, social justice etc filter into society while policy is still made by more practical minded political folks.

            (Not that we couldn’t do with more competence in bureaucracy but that is a different issue.)

  7. Watched Saif Ali Khan’s ‘Laal Kaptaan’ and loved it. Set in the aftermath of Battle of Buxar it is a slow and sometimes sloppy (both technically and historically) movie but in the end it works out as quite engrossing.

    Marathas(Mahadji and a bunch of pindari clowns), Rohillas, Nawabs … the world-(re)building has depth.

    Many people here will enjoy it. Much better than the poop Mughal/Maratha/Rajput movies being made.

    1. @Bhimrao
      Absolutely, save for the one jarring ‘witch’ character, everything else had a brilliant real and earthy feel, with colorful apparels looking very natural in the rugged backdrop dotted with magnificent forts.

    2. Didn’t u find naga sadhus with their supposedly insane martial skills over the top, especially against the thakurs and pathans? To me that was a bit jarring considering that almost all other folks are caricatured

      1. Depends on the context. As shock infantry, Naga Sadhus were some of the most in demand mercenaries, Rajputs (save for Purabhiyas) were woeful infantry, more inclined to horseback than foot. A Naga Sadhu Regiment, well equipped (usually paid for by their employee), more often than not was capable of acting as excellent foot auxiliaries to the mostly mounted lance and sword armed Rajputs. Jaipur Maharaja used them well against the French led Maratha Infantry.

        When it comes to the Pathans, they were a varied bunch, a Rohilla or a Bangash Pathan was a excellent musketeer infantryman, however, most others in India fought as light Pindaris or simple irregular musketeers, never capable of standing up to regular enemy units. Mahadji Scindia used them to the best effect as the Alighol Paltan (Berserk Vanguard Battalion) before his Regular Telanga and Purabhiya Campoo (Brigade) would advance on difficult enemy position. These vanguard Pathans were paid in plunder, unlike the regular Paltans of the Campoo, hence had an incentive to advance headlong in the face of fire to acquire first rights on the plunder.

      2. @Som
        The witch came out of nowhere and didn’t feel like an Indian character at all. I really like how well dressed Sonakshi Sinha’s courtesan/dancer was, she looked like the paintings of old. Dobariyal’s character was also over the top but quite entertaining, did such trackers exist in India? Simone Singh as Begum was great, much better than the lame Sakina Begum played by Zeenat Aman ji in Panipat. Neeraj Kabi is the new discount Nasruddin Shah.

        @Saurav
        Yes but if he wasn’t as cool why would there be a movie about him? It is Bollywood after all and technically he was a Rohilla Naga sadhu (did Muslim born Nagas exist?). Every village in Bundelkhand does have its own western type revenge legends.

        The prince/Thakur that he abducted was spot on. Such people are still around. Attention to detail (maybe not correct historically) with Rampur hounds, cigarette boxes, coins, shoes, jewelry etc was excellent.

        Good lyrics too. But the movie bombed and our ‘vishwa-guru’ population will spend 1000 crore on Dabangggg-9 while pissing on Bhavesh-Joshi-Superhero.

        Aukat hai ‘main zandu balm hui darling tere liye’ and sapne hain Scorsese and Nolan ke. Chhichhore (cheap people)!

      3. I still believe it was over the top though. Yes Naga sadhus had had some surprise victories. But given context anything is possible.

        The Indian forces under Brits inflicted serious defeat on Afghans in Afghanistan in the Anglo Afghan wars , does that mean you would consider Afghan forces inferior to desi forces. The same Marathas who have been caricatured, are they the same forces under Bajirao and Shivaji. So when almost all of them are taken piss out of them, it is strange to champion a group of people (i dont think there were anything called Muslim Naga Sadhus) who actually have anything remarkable military about them.

        The whole thing about Naga sadhus is the mystery about them, as well as given their resources they could stand up to Aurangzeb. And for all their resilience, Aurangzeb did eventually bring them to their heels. After that they are just like any other military group. Some wins, some loses, nothing to write home about. The only thing i would have liked is some perspective that they were shown as some competent military force, not some Illuminati level group. The movie showed them as some Shia Assassin level shit.

  8. Razib, could you answer the 2 questions I put down in the last Open thread(in case you didn’t see them)? thanks

      1. ok here they are
        1. “TLDR: to-be archaeology masters(quaternary prehistory) tempted to apply for masters in paleogenetics(msc. archaeociences), wud lack of prior training prove to be a problem later?

        Razib, I’ve yet another yearly career-related question, this time for you because you’re the sole person conversant in this that I’m acquainted with(I’ll admit tho that this is also an attempt to digress from the hullabaloo here of late)
        I’ll be completing my masters in quaternary prehistory next year, and plan to pursue another masters, this time in archaeological sciences(the masters i’m currently enrolled in is not as much scientifically rigorous as I’d want it for to be able to consider myself decently prepared for a phd later), more probably at some Western European department. I would have to start applying as the new year commences, and was thus perusing a lot of the relevant programmes. I recently came across this 2-year archsciences masters at Tuebingen, with 6 different specialisations(but it doesn’t have the one i wish to specialise in i.e. geoarchaeology). What piqued my curiosity is that one of the specialisation track is paleogenetics, and this was flummoxing bcuz i’m yet to come across another prog that coalesces archaeo and genetics, or even scholarly work or scholar that does so(i know you for one do, but i wonder if you did as part of your undergrad training too). There’s not even one single person in my department who could be called even a novice to genetics; there are only biological anthropologists, geologists, botanists, palaeontologists etc(being surrounded by only these was another reason that getting to know of paleogeneticists was much surprising). So what i want to ask you is, would you advise me to apply for this prog(i’d apply only for the palaeogen track, if i wud) considering I don’t have any prior training in genetics(or even biology). Although their website outlines that one would have to go through basic courses if one lacks prior knowledge of chosen specialisation, but I’m still dubious, considering the application would be quite an investment of both time and money(I’d have to apply and prepare for the DAAD too, as i’m quite sure i wont be able to self-fund).
        What do you say?”

        2. “And one small question Razib, I recollect a pic of yours here in which you were standing besides a banner of the American Association of Physical Anthropologists(i’m sure you were wearing a hat too). So do you identify as a physical anthropologist yourself? Do all geneticists do? And if all do not, how do we make a distinction between those who do and who dont? I mean what does one grp study or is interested in which the other isnt in?”
        (the first one is actually me overthinking as i’m yet to apply, let alone get selected, but i’m extremely worried, considering these times and the meager amt of fieldwork in my CV, and then the protean nature of what i want to specialise in in archsci)

        thnks Razib

        1. – you should apply if you think the contacts are good. the most important thing is that you meet the right people. you can learn quant skills on the side if you are smart.

          – i don’t identify as a physical anthropologist. i identify as a geneticist. most geneticists don’t ID as bio anth ppl because different training/focus/methods. i can’t really make heads or tails of bones, which is where bio anth starts. i go to meetings of anth now and then, but at this point it’s probably not ‘safe’ for me because there is so much political stuff and i’m right-wing (i got physically attacked at a genetics conference years ago, so seems likely at an anth conf, but there’s less testosterone, so who knows?).

          – related to above, if your politics are non-left, conceal that

          1. thnx for the insights Razib, will keep them in mind(and i’m right-wing too, so your forewarning is going to be of some help in future i believe)

  9. Have been reading up on the Rgveda for the last two weeks now, using Ralph Griffith translation (the most easily available). I am pursuing a theory that Indra (holder of the thunderbolt and lord of the rains) lost his primary position in the pantheon to Vishnu after the 4.2 kiloyear BP aridification event. This event is now marked as the Meghalayan Age in the current Holocene Epoch.

    Was trying to see if this already happened between the Old Books and the New Books in the Rgveda. But it is not the case, Indra is uniformly praised throughout the two sections. So the 4.2 kyBP event did not serve as a interruption to the recording of the Rgveda.

    In the Puranas, Vishnu is the chief deity. Indra sometimes prostrates to him. Whereas in the Vedas, Vishnu is merely Indra’s younger brother. So there occurred events between the Vedas and Puranas that might have ĺed to this reduction in status, perhaps in the area of monsoons which was Indra’s primary function.

      1. @NM

        Yes!! Thank you for mentioning it. According to the Puranas, Indra became self-indulgent and began to stray from his duty (regular and periodic rains). The Govardhan episode is one such, where an Avatar of Vishnu saves the common folk.

        I wanted to check if such a thing was possible (simultaneous aridification and flooding). And it is indeed so….

        https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S027737911731003X?via%3Dihub

        There was a two pulsed nature of the aridification event and some areas were wetter than normal. Considering the land mass of India, the story of Govardhan could indeed be a historical recording of the event. And it ties in perfectly with the theory that the disruption of the monsoon patterns led to Indra losing his place to Vishnu, who is now the Preserver!!

    1. Or another possibility is that the people who composed it weren’t agriculturalists and so drought conditions wouldn’t be as impactful or impactful enough to result in a big change. Just big enough to bring about vritra.

      1. There is no evidence of agriculture in the Old Books of the Rgveda, but there are in the New Books verses alluding to agriculture such as “Lord of the Tilled Field”, “Land inheritance”, “Seeds – Wild and Cultivated” and the phrase “Kshetra Khet”.

        The Old Books are clearly much older than the New Books not only in composition, meter, words but also in content. At one point in time, this was a primary evidence of the non-identification of the Rgveda with the IVC, since there is sufficient evidence of agriculture at IVC (granaries, fields, plowing oxen etc).

        It is impossible to delink the IVC with this discussion, because the decline of IVC co-incides exactly with the start of the Meghalayan Age and the original paper cites the same as adducing evidence.

        1. Just like the difference between old and new parts of Rgveda, the difference between Rgveda and Yajurveda seems significant.

          How about
          Rgveda old: Steppe migrants on the way / in vicinity of south Asia. Therefore comparable to other sister societies like Iranian (Avesta)
          Rgveda new: Steppe living alongside /periphery of IVC
          Yajurveda onwards : Composite society derived from post decline IVC, AASI and Steppe. Cultural elements almost entirely from IVC with framework(+language) borrowed from Steppe. Transition recorded in stories like govardhan mountain one mentioned.

          By the time of puranas and Mahabharata the transition is complete and die is set for Hinduism with all its characteristics as we know

          1. @iamVY

            The Avestan and New Books of the Rgveda have the following things in common –

            Names with the prefixes and suffixes aśva-, ratha-, ṛṇa-, -citra, pras-, ṛṣṭi-, -ayana, dvi-, aṣṭa-, -anti, ūrdhva-, ṛjū-, -gu, saṁ-, svar-, -manas, śavas-, -stuta, śūra-, sthūra-, vidad-, nṛ-, pṛṣad-, prati-, -śardha, pṛthu-, jarat-, maya-, hari-, -śruta, śyāva-, -toṣa, -tanu, -rocis, -vanta/-manta, -kratu, etc., and the following names: Ghora, Āptya, Atharva, Uśīnara, Avasyu, Budha, Ṛkṣa, Gandharva, Gaya, Sumāyā, Kṛpa, Kṛṣṇa, Māyava, Śāsa, Traitana, Urukṣaya, Nābhānediṣṭha, Vṛṣṇi, Vaivasvat, Virāṭ
            (Talageri 2008)

            Also words like āśā, gandha/gandhi, kadrū, sūcī, tiṣya, phāla, saptaṛṣi, mūjavat, stukā, ambhas, samā, strī, tokman, evathā, udara, kṣīra, sthūṇa, chāga, kapota, vṛkka, śanaih, pṛdāku, bhaṅga, parṣa, pavasta, dvīpa (Talageri 2008)

            But there is nothing common between Avestan and the Old Books of the Rgveda.

          2. About 1/4 of above words are present in modern Serbian language. Probably, some other in archaic Serbian or slightly changed which I don’t know on top of my mind.

        2. @iamVY
          Your idea won’t work because Vedas were only created in India and not anywhere else. If Old Rig Veda was composed outside India, then Mittanis should also possess them — as according to you Steppe nomads are capable of doing so. Where is it in Mesopotamia? Where are the records? Mesopotamians were literate since ages back!!! Mesopotamian Old Rig Veda should also have river/place names of local areas changed to IE to fit Old Rig Veda. So, please provide the Mesopotamian version of Old Rig Veda, or any version of it that you seem fit. Otherwise, your suggestion cannot be true.

          Let me relax the requirement: Is there a region the size of Northern India (any size will do) in Mesopotamia that has all its river/place names changed to IE? Indo Aryans — according to AMT — were a tribe that deliberately changed all the place/river names in Northern India; we should also see this in Mesopotamia. If not, then why?

          1. @Ugra @timepass

            Thanks for the responses. I should make it clear that I am not trying to favor one model over another.

            I am quite open to any model that takes all available data into account. Based on current reading and consensus Aryan invasion looks too simplistic. AMT has diluted the black and white narrative to an extent but still hasnt gone far enough. On other hand, classic OIT has not been able to answer genetic questions. Some years back I read comments where they were trying to prove deep R lineages that has not seen much success to say R1a spread out from India. I feel the truth is between those two. If I were to guess at the moment, AMT and OIT meet in middle where there is genetic incursion but most culture is derived from IVC which accounts for continuity in many symbols, practices, etc. Razib already wrote “https://www.brownpundits.com/2020/05/04/they-came-they-conquered-they-were-swallowed/” which is closer to that middle.

            Timing & geography of the individual epics is still open question. Using the two comments made
            /But there is nothing common between Avestan and the Old Books of the Rgveda /
            /Vedas were only created in India and not anywhere else /
            Alternate suggestion of multiple steppe migrations can be used. Where the first migrations are much earlier than dates given by AMT. Old Rgveda composers can be forest dwellers in gangetic plains. How they reach there without interaction with BMAC/IVC is another puzzle. But if assumed, the later east to west movements as claimed by OIT can be accounted for.

            Modifying my earlier comment
            Rgveda old: Composed by Steppe people in Gangetic forest
            Rgveda new: Steppe living alongside /periphery of IVC – comparable to other sister societies like Iranian (Avesta)
            Yajurveda onwards : Composite society derived from post decline IVC, AASI and Steppe. Cultural elements almost entirely from IVC with framework(+language) borrowed from Steppe. Transition recorded in stories like govardhan mountain one mentioned.

            By the time of puranas and Mahabharata the transition is complete and die is set for Hinduism with all its characteristics as we know

          2. @iamVY
            It is entirely possible for AMT to happen, but only before the existence of Harappan civilization. In the time period of 2000BC – 1500 BC, it is practically impossible for Sanskrit speakers to arrive in India. Moreover, recent genetics papers have weakened the case for Steppe theory by a large amount. At one point of time, I thought Anatolian hypothesis could be true, but genetics has proven that it is not so.

            Also, your suggestion is very creative, and Old Rig Veda was definitely composed in a rural setting — perhaps by forest dwellers. I present to you a few facts that support OIT and leave them up to your wisdom:

            1. Iron age started in the 16th century in India. The earliest iron artifacts dating to 2400-1800 BC are found in Telangana; in the Gangetic plains, they date between 1800-1500 BC.
            2. Rig Veda is a bronze age text.
            3. India remained urban even after the decline of IVC.
            4. Rig Veda describes a rural society that transitions to the urban one.
            5. Central Asia and IVC spoke a related language. They shared culture, belief, and ancestry.
            6. I think Turan and Anatolia both played a part in the Yamnaya formation. You should confirm this with @Razib.
            7. There were IVC colonies in Mesopotamia.
            8. Presence of chariots in India, and their doubtful presence in Steppe.

            The list presented above is not exhaustive; there are many more facts; I have just listed some of them. Besides, genetics demonstrates population movement; it is just one of the pieces of evidence. Only by collating all of them can we make an informed decision. Furthermore, people don’t just leave their language: Substratum influence continues to exist even after adopting a new language. To be frank, how exactly IE languages spread is very much an open question. According to me, Central Asia played an important part in spreading it throughout Eurasia.

            Even if Steppe nomads came to India, there is no proof that both they and Harappans spoke different languages. In Europe, how IE spread is still an open question; there are various problems regarding timelines and geographic spread. Moreover, they are still trying to explain how Tocharian spread; let us wait and see if they succeed or not. Anatolia proved to be waterloo for them; Tocharian may also be so.

            We don’t know for sure when Steppe nomads entered in India; researchers have not presented any direct genetic evidence for Steppe ancestry in 1900-1500 BC in India or even on its periphery. Maybe, they confined themselves to India’s periphery and only entered Gangetic plains in the late Iron age, who knows? For Steppe nomads to compose Rig Veda, they should be present in the Gangetic plains at least in 2000 BC. All this is after neglecting the problem of the sudden disappearance of Harappan language from Central Asia, Mesopotamia, and Northern India — a region in size larger than Europe.

            From what I have seen, genetic ancestry modeling is very malleable. At its heart lies correlation, not causation. Furthermore, in a few generations, all traces of the previous ancestry can get diluted to trace amounts; it then becomes impossible to detect it by current means. That is why a lot of skeletons from different time periods are needed. I suppose geneticists deal with this problem by tracking haplogroups; however, there is no certainty that they can’t be wrong as they don’t know how they are distributed at different time periods. You can ask geneticists in this forum if what I say is true or not; and I will also learn if I am wrong.

            It is also not given that there must be a one to one correspondence between a haplogroup and a language; after all, anyone can learn a language. To sum up: OIT is as likely as AMT; the final word is yet to be spoken.

        3. @Ugra

          What about hymn 57 from the 4th book (which is an Old Book)?

          It talks about agriculture. On the other hand it might have been put in later on.

    2. @DaThang
      You have such keen observation!!! Vedas were composed by priests — primarily by Puru tribe priests — as asserted by both Witzel and Talageri. Some Dravidian saints also contributed to composing Vedas too. So, your suggestion is totally valid.

    3. @Ugra

      I can send you a copy of the Rig Veda translated by Jamison & Bereton if you would like. It is the gold standard for the Rig Veda. It was published in 2014. Everything about it is better — the translations are more accessible, each hymn has a preface with information about the hymn, the translations take into account the work that has gone into understanding Vedic Sanskrit since the Griffith translation, and it also draws more from native commentaries (mainly Sayana’s).

      It is so much better than Griffith’s work and some controversial stuff like ‘anasa’ = ‘noseless’ is clarified.

      1. Thanks for the recommendation. After reading the goodreads review and notes from translators on their website, looks like a worthwhile read than the older translation.

      2. @Hoju

        Thank you for mentioning it. Ralph Griffith, warts and all, has been referenced by many authors, although some translations clearly betray an “specific meaning” like “bay steed” which is far removed from its Indian setting.

        I will check for Jamison and Brereton, looks like there is a copy on academia.edu

      3. @Hoju
        Your suggestion is very good. Nonetheless, the work suffers from Western Indologists’ bias and half knowledge. I tried to read a few pages; however, I stopped after I found glaring errors in their manuscripts. A quick wiki search would give the date for the start of the Iron age in India to be 16th century BC — rather than 1200 BC — stated by them. Iron artifacts dated to 1800-1500 BC have been found in Ganga plains. In India, the earliest evidence of iron usage comes from Telangana dated between 2400-1800 BC. It is not too much to expect scholars to be accurate, surely!!! I have now lost all my willingness to read the book after such an obvious error.
        Moreover, for these people, tradition — that preserved Vedas like a tape recorder — is anathema: I just don’t get it why they behave like this?
        Do you have suggestions for books on Rig Veda (by Indian authors if possible) that are more accurate?

        1. @timepaas,

          There is no such thing as “unbiased” author. If you find some of their statements unacceptable, it is all the more reason to complete a thorough read of it to understand a holistic view of where they are coming from.

          Otherwise, you will be doing what you accuse them of, confirmation bias. They made a good faith effort and it was published in 2014, which meant it was written up for publication at even earlier date.

          The findings of Sanauli and confirmation of Iron Age in gangetic plain weren’t available then. How can you accuse authors of bias on this basis alone?

          1. @Violet
            What you say is true. However, I am not an expert in Indology. And detecting their biases is an uphill task for me. I will give it a try, I guess. Can you suggest an Indian author to go along with their work? Their work appears to be really good otherwise.

            Iron age paper on the Ganges plains was published in 2003. You can look at the paper “The origins of Iron-working in India: New evidence from the Central Ganga Plain and the Eastern Vindhyas.” It is a well-known paper. The Telangana paper, however, was published later, and I don’t know how much relevance it has for AMT, except that ironworking was known long back to Indians.

            They should have updated the Iron age dates as 2003 to 2014 is ample time for them to read such an important paper. Maybe, they could have avoided mentioning the dates altogether.

  10. Razib did you look at the poll linked in the last thread? BP voters are leaning a little bit to the mesolithic than the neolithic side. What is your opinion on it?

    1. @DaThang
      Thank you for your knowledgeable comment. You have again provided evidence for proving OIT by stating that the people who composed Vedas were not agriculturalists: They were in fact priests. Vedas document a rural society that transitioned off to urban. Harappa totally fits the bill.

      Your suggestion again proves that Steppe nomads — because of Vedas’ internal continuity — could not have composed the texts.

      What is your opinion about the paper “Genomic History of Neolithic to Bronze Age Anatolia, Northern Levant, and Southern Caucasus”. Is Steppe theory over? If not, why? I would like to hear your astute and learned opinion.

      1. Precursor cultures to the ivc have been farming since at least 7000 bc with indications of wild grain exploitation going back to 7500 bc in some places. So for vedas to be locally composed before local agriculture posits a date far older than the ones that are accepted. When I say it wasn’t composed by agriculturalists I mean by people who don’t live in farming based society and this includes the priests of a farming society. In other words by people who do not live in a society based on farming.

        And I don’t see how that paper influences the steppe theory.

        1. @DaThang, so there is concrete evidence for the claim that farming was practiced by the indigenous people of India, before any contact with Iranian or Middle Eastern/West Asian farmers? And there is also evidence for the claim that they were farming Wheat in particular before any outside influence as well?

          1. I don’t think that they were farming before southern Anatolians and Natufians who were the first known large scale grain harvesters that I know of, but the early farming of south Asia is probably roughly contemporaneous with that of Iran. I also think that the emergence of farming/wild grain exploitation is mostly an indigenous/local thing and largely independent of Iranian and other middle to near eastern farmers because 90% of the grains at an early prominent site (Mehrgarh) were local non-domesticated wild barley grains. There was some non-local presence but that was a small minority, could be from trade. Among the non-local/already domesticated remains, there is wheat. So the wheat found in neolithic south Asia onward is from the near east, and I suspect arrived mostly through trade. Zebu was traded out of south Asia probably in exchange for the wheat.

            Some of the best compiled arguments for the local cultivation are provided by Jean Francois Jarrige and it is those which convinced me of this position.

  11. There is no God but Shri Rama and Hanuman is his last messenger.
    -InshaGanesha!
    I am an atheist myself and I see Ayodhya as a triumph of indigenous civilization over an intrusive and exclusivist ideology. It’s a huge boost to all the indigenous civilizations fighting the injustices done to them during 16th-18th century in the name of God (s) (Allah, Christ)

    1. I didn’t want to comment on this site anymore, but making fun of the Kalima and of the phrase “Inshallah” is not acceptable.

      You people can’t resist Islamophobia for even one week can you?

      1. “i refuse to watch the content of this gay porn site, but want to tell you guys male-male anal sex is totally unacceptable…”

        i don’t see it as making fun. it’s clear religious hindutva ppl are aping aspects of Abrahamic religious practice. one reason they make up stupid things like nuclear missiles 5,000 years ago and self-righteous priggishness like you constantly illustrate

        1. IndraPutra,

          I wasn’t aping but I was mocking, clarifying just in case if you got it wrong.

          May the blessings of Indra, Varuna, Aryaman be with you and the Ashwins will always be watching you over.

    2. With Hindu indigenous civilization the assaults from Muslims started far before the 16th century. Luckily we’re recovering.

  12. I am so tired of this nonsense Pakistanis say India is as bad as Pakistan EVERY SINGLE TIME. I will give them our (lack of) toilet shaming (knowing that we will fix it withing a few years) and caste issues but pointless comparisons make no sense. Anyone with little brain can see that India is much more serious and does a much better job at education than Pakistan. But No! if they have to write something about Pakistan how can we not drag India into it. Pakistani ‘intellectual’ Dr Hoodbhoy lathering himself in his own imaginary shit while doing all sorts of mental gymnastics to somehow, anyhow, without any rhyme or reason drag India in:

    https://www.dawn.com/news/1573256/pak-india-education-compared

    Humko cheekh cheekh kar rona hai, har baat par, chaahe sahi ho ya galat, Modi nein saans kyu le li? Humko bura laga! Now I will cry.

    We will cry no matter what you do!
    Why did Modi breathe? Why did he blink his eyes?
    Now we have a problem with naming satellites ‘Aryabhatta’ too. Boo! Boo!

    We will beg around for pittance while our children rape kittens and our teenagers kill kaafirs while forcefully converting 11 year old girls (Mah narrative! childhood is socially constructed) but we will go around advising India on how to make educational policy. At the same time skipping who actually destroyed Nalanda and Takshashila and Odantpuri and Vikramshila…..

    I mean it makes sense doing this if you have some valid points like if you talk about caste or toilets but it makes no sense in other cases. So shut the fuck up and write stuff that makes sense or point out real flaws.

    ‘Main! Mujhse puncho! Humko sab aata hai! Hum batayenge tumko kya karna hai!’

    1. Dr. Pervez Hoodbhoy is a committed secularist. He has recently gotten in trouble in Pakistan since he pointed out how much “Islam” is being put into the new national curriculum. Even in the DAWN article, he pointed out that Pakistan’s new curriculum is much worse than India’s.

      Someone who tells Dr. Hoodbhoy to “shut the fuck up” is an Islamophobic and anti-Pakistan troll. When even someone who is called “anti-Pakistan” and “anti-Islam” in his own country is not good enough for you, it means you are just viscerally prejudiced against 220 million people.

      1. Dr. Hoodbhoy, as great a physicist as he is, should stop writing crap.

        I’ve said this before. Pakistanis should stop their India-obsession and find better role models like Germany or even Indonesia.

        The only reason he keeps drawing equivalences with India is to garner eyeballs and clicks. The things people have to do to keep the fire running at home.

        1. You can’t argue against his point so you cast aspersions on his motivations. Nice.

          Pakistanis and (North) Indians are ethnically and culturally the same. It is only because of contingent political factors that we are even two separate nation-states. That’s why comparisons between these two make much more sense than comparing Pakistan to Germany.

          1. “You can’t argue against his point so you cast aspersions on his motivations. Nice.”

            I would counter his point if he had one. But the entire article is tautological.

            Since anything India does has to be Hindutva hence everything India does is Hindutva. When you have a hammer etc.

            His limited of understanding of Indian education policy is quite apparent when he brings up Urdu in a discussion on classical languages.

            Urdu is considered a modern Indian language on par with Hindi, Bengali, Marathi etc and is offered as a second/third language in a number of schools.

            Samskrit, Persian, Tamil etc are officially given the status of ‘classical’ languages. Such has been the case from even before the current government came to power.

            He’s being densely conspiratorial on an issue he has no authority on.

            “That’s why comparisons between these two make much more sense than comparing Pakistan to Germany.”

            You’ll continue to be a shithole if you have shithole role models.

          2. @Prats

            I am open to take a lesson if there is a any valid point he raises but what he says in not useful that is what is irritating.
            There are so many things he could talk about:
            1) Modi’s corona policy.
            2) Modi’s electronics policy doling out tax benefits.(which btw I support)
            3) Modi attending temple shilanyas while being PM.
            4) BJP cheating in state assemblies and ethics of BJP electoral bonds.
            5) Fake encounters in India
            .
            .
            endless

            Talk about these issues which actually have some weight of evidence. But No! we will talk about some random gibberish without understanding and write without putting in any effort. I was also pissed by the Urdu comment, it is not a classical language. It is a modern language like so many other Indian languages.

            I actually like Hoodbhoy but he is becoming so boring and predictable writing such platitudes and making comparisons where none exist.

            I mean if you have to embarrass India compare ISI vs RAW, compare PAF vs IAF, compare Pakistani foreign graduate school scholarship schemes with our pittance, compare Pakistani universities’ physical infrastructure to our crumbling buildings, surely there will be so many other places where Pakistan outshines India. At least pretend to put in the effort to sound reasonable.

            Jo mann mein aaya bol dena hai bas. Mah Life! Mah Rules! Mah Munh! Mah nonsense!

          3. The context of Dr. Hoodbhoy’s article is PTI’s new proposed single national curriculum so obviously he is going to write about education policy.

            It’s not about “embarrassing India”. He’s writing for the Pakistani audience in a Pakistani newspaper. He has to criticize Hindutva as well so that he is not accused of being anti-Islam. This is a compulsion in the Pakistani context.

            Bhimrao, you used to be a reasonable human being. Why do you have to write like a total troll?

          4. Speaking as a North Indian I’d like to make it perfectly clear that we are very distinct from Pakistanis. You guys are an Islamic supremacist people whereas most of us North Indians are Hindus who are beginning to rise up against Islamic oppression. As you know we recently laid the foundation of a temple to honor the birthplace of our Lord Ram and it’s only the beginning. Kashi, Mathura, then 40,000 other temples will be liberated.

          5. Advik,

            You were just unbanned. Already you’re threatening to destroy more mosques? Watch yourself.

            Sorry but the facts are that Pakistanis and North Indians are ethnically and culturally the same. The only difference is religious demographics.

          6. Advik,

            Stop trolling. Razib “sir” (by the way Americans don’t write “sir” after people’s names) may have to ban you again.

            You clearly don’t understand that 15th century actions can’t be judged by 21st century standards and that in a SECULAR state there is NEVER any excuse to destroy minority places of worship.

            I’m ignoring you from now on. Troll.

          7. @Kabir
            A taqiyyaman like you cannot comprehend the following facts, but I will try:
            1. Ambedkar and Nehru both opposed the insertion of the word secular in the preamble.
            2. Mahatma Gandhi, the father of the nation, himself urged Mosque built on Somnath temple to be shifted. Indian Muslims did so as they recognized the evil inflicted in the past era.

            Hence, precedence exists since India’s independence of Indian Muslims vacating the land where mosques have been wrongly constructed. As patriotic citizens of India, they want to vacate the disputed lands: Only vile humans like you stand in their paths.

          8. fulto,

            Calling me “taqiyyaman” only reveals your Islamophobia. This word is only used on these forums by Hindu Right-wing types.

            As for your calling me a “vile human”, this is laughable coming from a Hindutvadi. You all are the scum of the earth, lyching Muslims right and left. Your ideology is directly inspired by European fascism. I am a Nehruvian Secularist and extremely proud of being one.

          9. @Kabir
            I have nothing against Islam, but you are very less knowledgeable. Anyways, here is another fact for you:

            > Nehru overrode Patel’s decision of giving Kashmir to Pakistan. As a Nehruvian secularist, you should accept his decision. It is only and only because of him that Jammu and Kashmir became part of India.

            Hope you practice what you preach.

  13. How do people feel about Anglo-American recreational cannabis culture using Dharmic symbols, terms, and figures?

    For example, a cannabis dispensary in Denver, Colorado downtown had (probably still has) Buddha statues with the Buddha wearing sunglasses and having a cannabis cigarette affixed to his mouth. It should be noted that the Buddha did not encourage cannabis use.

    As another example, one of the cannabis companies based out of Toronto is named Namaste. One of their cannabis strains is called Durga Mata.

    I don’t really care much about cultural appropriation, and my view of cannabis is positive so I am not really affected by it in that sense. I’m also not very religious.

    But on the other hand it does bug me a bit that other religions aren’t usually used in this manner, and what that might say about how Westerners view Dharmic religions (although some of this could be positive, as well).

    I could see people like my parents getting offended by the use of Dharmic stuff in this context, but on the other hand they are also likely never going to go to a cannabis dispensary. So maybe no harm no foul?

    Any thoughts?

    1. All the fatty’s have Ganesh ji. I find it very cool actually. All my Indian friends smile looking at Ganesh ji smoking and comments Gora people don’t know shit (i.e. they confuse Ganesha with his father).

      Attitude towards bhang is quite liberal in my family on Shivratri. No reason for Indians to feel angry at gora newbies to Ganja. I have always considered long haired hippies to be Gora-Naga Sadhus (obviously with sex and women)

    2. Within Hinduism cannibas is associated with certain sects, gods and festivals.

      But there are other deities that are associated with teetotaler traditions where even caffeine is not allowed alongside other intoxicants.

      So it depends on which diety, like Shiva, and Durga are cool. Lots of Saudhus and Sadhvis smoke ganja and Bhaang is traditional on Holi etc.

      If they associate it with Rama I think it’s a bit offensive / not respectful of the culture. Since Rama is like the most straight edge diety.

      https://theprint.in/features/how-bhang-became-such-an-integral-part-of-holi/378324/

      1. I know that there are deities and sects associated with cannabis, but Buddha isn’t one afaik. And if a deity was associated with cannabis (like Shiva), would those sects be ok with an idol of the deity being made to wear sunglasses, smoking js, in a cannabis dispensary?

        Seems like some of them would be pretty chill about it, which is pretty cool come to think of it. My exposure is limited.

        Hope they legalize recreational cannabis more fully in India.

    3. I don’t mind the use of symbols. I wish:
      1. It was more culturally informed
      2. Indians were more enterprising. Using this opportunity to mint money and spread the cult of Shiva. Imagine a chain of ‘Jai Bhole Nath’ canabis stores all across north America where you get bhaang and are initiated into Shavaistic practices.

      There’s an opportunity to create a Red Bull like brand here. Shiva related merchandize. Concerts where you play deep house trance bhakti music. So on and so forth.

      Gujju bros, where you at?

        1. I am familiar with some of this genre, though I am personally not big into electronic music.

          Shiva has been a passive presence in western popular music ever since Bob Marley’s era.

          But I think we need to be more ambitious. A few hundred thousand folks, all high on bhaang, head banging to Shiva Tandava Strotam is what we should be gunning for.

          I generally think Indians have done a shoddy job upgrading marketable Hindu elements to a modern aesthetic standard.

          1. “I generally think Indians have done a shoddy job upgrading marketable Hindu elements to a modern aesthetic standard.”

            This is true and sad.

            Just look at the Times Square thing where they put up pictures of Ram & the temple. I respect Ram and his devotees and his iconography, but when you take it out of its context and put it up on a billboard type thing, it looks so out of place. He looked more like a Street Fighter character.

            I posted this elsewhere but the BBC had a post showing photos of real people as deities, and it was so tastefully done. It has an emphasis on colorism (so the people are dark-skinned, even in cases where the deity is not described as such), but at any rate it shows how tastefully Indian stuff can be presented.

            https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-42637998

            Lakshmi
            https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/195D/production/_99539460_86d14e77-6dcd-4133-8522-03d4e6c0efb8.png

            There’s other ones in the article.

      1. The problem with exploring this huge commercial aspect is we dont know where it will really pinch our thin skinned “Hindu protectors” . Both the Hindutva as well as Woke “white folks apportioning our culture” desis.

        I remember they had really harmless Kali avatar is some video games, and folks started losing their shit.

        1. “The problem with exploring this huge commercial aspect is we dont know where it will really pinch our thin skinned “Hindu protectors” .”

          There’s two ways to go about countering this:
          1. Get sanction from Mota bhai
          2. Involve the BLM types folks. Shiva is already a holy deity for Rastafarians. Can tap into that.

          I also hope that with political success the Hindutva types will become secure enough to be able to entertain these experiments. No evidence of it yet, though.

          I wonder what a young pro-business MP like Tejasvi Surya would have to say about this idea.

          1. Getting sanction from Mota Bhai would de-jure something, which is already de-facto in my view. That Hinduism “belongs” to a political party and it alone can sanction the use of its symbolism

            I am cool with that, but i have an inkling that some folks (including some BP commentators) might have a issue with that 😛

          2. “That Hinduism “belongs” to a political party and it alone can sanction the use of its symbolism”

            Not the right way to look at it.

            Hinduism doesn’t belong to a single party but a lot of parties have veto on it.

            All politics in India is essentially about the nuisance potential of a group. Muslims top the chart. But we have seen in the past Yadavs, Jats, Dravidians etc flex that muscle from time to time.

            At the moment, out of the series of approvals to get, BJP’s is the most important because it gives highest nuisance protection. But that’s far from a monopoly that the term ‘belong’ implies.

          3. Well i would say only one party has veto on Hinduism.

            Other examples u provided are local vetoes like Jats can veto Jat stuff, Dalits can veto dalit stuff, and so on and so forth. Similarly can any other party in India really veto on Hinduism, apart from BJP? No. Can any other party over-rule BJP’s veto on Hindu-ism? No. Can BJP overrule any other party’s stand on Hinduism, even Shiv Sena’s ? Yes.

            Their lies ur answer on monopoly.

          4. “Other examples u provided are local vetoes like Jats can veto Jat stuff, Dalits can veto dalit stuff, and so on and so forth”

            I wasn’t talking about Jat veto on Hinduism but their nuisance creating potential. We witnessed that during the recent agitations.

            It is a general point about how politics is conducted in India. Could be for any issue. Doesn’t matter. As long as a group can do tod-phod eveyone else will compromise.

            This is different from monopoly.

            The super marche shelves in Europe are stocked with halaal meat. It’s not because Muslims have a monopoly on food standards there.

            “Similarly can any other party in India really veto on Hinduism, apart from BJP? No. Can any other party over-rule BJP’s veto on Hindu-ism? No. Can BJP overrule any other party’s stand on Hinduism, even Shiv Sena’s ? Yes.”

            All sorts of people regularly do the ‘hurt feelings’ shit. BJP latches on to it more than others. Doesn’t mean other parties don’t.

            The BJP had to cave in on Sabarimala for example.

            Anyway, I don’t think we can convince each other on this point.

            I will, though, again caution the Hindutva folks on hubris. It’ll come back to bite in the ass.

  14. Interesting read – https://quillette.com/2020/07/31/lessons-from-the-last-empire-of-iran/?fbclid=IwAR1SnFJfZlAObN9dMgX5aG4-6nsNtP4hFK-jzl81KYJ_SoNeBQLX-aqlKnE.

    It is an amazing episode in history when the Roman (Eastern) and Sassanian powers are left debilitated by epidemics and the depradations of invasions from the Asiatic steppes. Their edifices (in the Middle East) crumble before the Arabs storming out from the peninsula under the banner of Islam. The world is forever changed.

    It is interesting how global powers can come to a sudden end. The USSR rose out of the ashes of the Russian Empire, but was cut down to size in a short span of a decade or so. The US also seems to have overreached at the present time and there are many of predict its global decline. Even China does not seem to offer a political system that nations around the globe can emulate.

    This time around the world may not be turned upside down by another temporal power. Climate change is waiting in the wings. The pandemic has given us a small taste of things to come.

  15. Muslim Man Assaulted, Attackers Allegedly Insisted He Shout ‘Modi Zindabad’, ‘Jai Shri Ram

    https://thewire.in/communalism/muslim-auto-driver-assaulted-after-he-refused-to-shout-modi-zindabad-jai-shri-ram

    This is getting to be an almost daily occurance. India is really turning into a Hindu fascist country.

    But come on Hindutvadis, let’s see you somehow turn this around on Pakistan!

    And the irony of it is “Zindabad” is actually an Urdu word (comes from Persian). If you want to make people chant Hindu fascist slogans, at least don’t use a Muslim language.

      1. Making an old Muslim man chant “Jai Shri Ram” (that slogan forever associated with lynching minorities) and “Modi Zindabad” is definitely fascist.

        You all have destroyed Babri and built your damn temple. Now stop making the lives of Muslims hell.

        1. Finally we are learning something from our Muslims brethren and realizing that it might not be the worst idea to use their methods against them. Hari Om 🙂

          1. I have no trust in the news items put out by the Sherwanis of Afghanistan through their very own media portal, The Wire. Moreover, I’m glad to see that the Hindu response is matching the so called moderate Muslim response on issues like Charlie Hebdo. “Violence is bad, but all violence is bad. If we are to condemn this act we can’t do it selectively. Let’s also speak out against those who incited the act in the first place and those in other places who committed violent acts in the name of other ideologies”.

            Poison kills poison.

        2. Making an old Muslim man chant…

          It’s a hate crime, which I personally strongly condemn.

          The perpetrators were later arrested by the state police. Not an indicator of a fascist state.

          I am not here to defend these criminals and it’s concerning. But it’s a country of a billion people shit happens on a daily basis.

          “Jai Shri Ram” (that slogan forever associated with lynching minorities)

          So this is like saying “Allah hu Akbar” is forever associated with ISIS beheading non-Muslims.

          1. “shit happens on a daily basis”– Downplaying the hard majoritarian turn India has taken since Hindu Hriday Samrat was elected? That’s Hindutvadi logic.

            If you can’t see that this hatred is enabled by the State, you have severe issues.

            No one should ever be beaten and made to chant slogans that are against his religion. This is the bare minimum of decency and its sad that Hindu Indians aren’t even capable of maintaining that. You all are truly a sick nation.

        3. No one should ever be beaten and made to chant slogans that are against his religion.

          No one here is justifying this act.

          If you can’t see that this hatred is enabled by the State, you have severe issues.

          How is this enabled by the State?

          You do realize that Hindus are victimized by Muslims as well within India on a regular basis. Is that enabled by the state as well?

          You claim to support secularism but this is not possible when you only see victimization of one community (The one to which you belong).

          This is the bare minimum of decency and its sad that Hindu Indians aren’t even capable of maintaining that.

          You take the actions of a few and use it to besmirch the faith and Nationality of millions.

          As a self-proclaimed Muslim and Pakistani you really should know better m.

          I am sure you are aware that Pakistani Muslims have performed grotesque stoning, beheadings etc under the “guise of Islam”.

          But I would never go so far as to insult the faith or nationality of millions of people in the context due to a criminal act committed by a few people.

          Because I have a bare minimum level of decency, and apparently despite your claims to being a secularist and Muslim you don’t.

          1. “No one here is justifying this act”– If you read the comment above yours from “Green Veggies”, it does justify Hindu majoritarianism.

            Such crimes are enabled by the State because Hindu Hriday Samrat doesn’t care about them. People lynch Muslims and he doesn’t say anything. Why would he? He is the Butcher of Gujarat after all. He himself has Muslim blood on his hands.

            And I love the whataboutary with respect to Pakistan. Pakistan is an ISLAMIC Republic and India is a SECULAR state. Anyway, we are talking about a country where your people are in power and are victimizing my people. If Pakistani Muslims beat a Hindu man and made him chant Islamic slogans, I wouldn’t be defending them even slightly.

            “criminal act committed by a few people”– this is typical Hindutvadi logic and I have zero patience for it.

    1. Do you read OpIndia too? Or is that a biased website? A lot of Indians who follow US politics watch a mix of MSNBC and Fox. Do you do the same for India?

        1. Translation: I don’t read anything that remotely challenges my views and am offended by the very thought of someone disagreeing with me.

  16. If someone here has access to the GPT-3 API, you should probably try feeding it an interchange between Kabir and some other user, and then see what new conversations it generates.

  17. Surprised nobody is talking about the Bangladesh floods. Something like 1/4th of the country is affected and millions of people lost everything. In the middle of a pandemic. Life certainly is not fair, and climate change will hit Bangladesh harder than most countries despite them not contributing almost anything to the problem.

  18. It is interesting how global powers can come to a sudden end. The USSR rose out of the ashes of the Russian Empire, but was cut down to size in a short span of a decade or so. The US also seems to have overreached at the present time and there are many of predict its global decline. Even China does not seem to offer a political system that nations around the globe can emulate.

    China is not a threat to US hegemony. The Chinese are isolationist and outside of Russia and Pakistan basically have no friends of note. The US will continue to be far and away the most powerful country, just not a ‘hyperpower’ the way it was in 1990s when it was inrivalled.

    Once you get the liberal imperialists in, they will do a much better job than clumsy drumpf and his gang.

    P.S. the US dollar has *increased* its dominance in the global monetary system since the 2008 crisis.

  19. Jatt (is it Jatt_Scythian or a different user?) posted links to certain Pakistani FB pages that talk about the IVC on another thread-

    https://www.facebook.com/AncientPakistan
    https://www.facebook.com/AncientPakistan.pk/

    They pretty much emulate certain comments that I’ve seen on Reddit

    You can see the general trend, they’re trying to claim that IVC pretty much belongs to Pakistan and has nothing to do with India (or the east as he calls it) and that India is an entirely different civilization and that modern-day Indians have nothing to nothing whatsoever to do with IVC

    The admin makes bold and baseless claims like this one-
    “Plus the Sarawasti river of Rig Veda refers to Helmand or Haraxvati river in Southern Afghanistan”

    We know nothing conclusive about the Saraswati river at this point, but he’s just trying to make sure that nothing falls in Indian territory whatsoever, the insecurity is clear

    And he repeatedly keeps using “ancient Pakistan” on every single post, and there’s one guy in the comments claiming that Indians are “stealing” Pakistan’s “heritage”

    And look at this document shared by the page back in 2014-https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YHB09nnNmDmyDcazteC_XovD3HaLqP6PLLAam3dMNlY/edit?fbclid=IwAR10FQ8vqqm6nQjP6LuA_BFnQi-lBAs5rzZJicUmBTtp7Mdmik_gIDzNyMY

    Second FB page is a bit more tame but once you scroll enough, you can see that it has the same intentions

    1. If you are interested, you can read the paper “On the existence of a perennial river in the Harappan heartland” published in nature (2019). Saraswati river was very important for IVC as established by this paper.

      1. Keherr comment section!

        Other than Nasr education society in Hyderabad and Integral University and Iram Medical College in Lucknow(both private btw) I have not seen even one (large) community project of Indian Muslims that merits any praise.

        No positivity, No light, No large hearted love or contribution towards society at large. Regular gutter politics while rolling in their own shit.

        Then will cry when paid back in the same coin.

        1. Dawoodi Bohras recently built Saifee hospital in Mumbai – among the best hospitals in the city and one that benefits all its residents.
          I believe Aga Khanis similarly do charity for the broader community as well, and have hospitals, schools and colleges in Mumbai (and presumably other locations).
          Not sure about the mainstream Sunni/Shia sects and how they fare.
          Among private citizens, Azim Premji is India’s foremost philanthropist (again he is Ismaili Khoja/Agakhani) – but I suppose your emphasis on community level charity.

          I find the Indian Muslim related developments concerning especially given globalization and the ease with which info/misinfo/propoganda can spread, the Ummah that can and is leveraged in pursuit of certain objectives and certain countries etc..I think we need a) Large heartedness from the Muslims – seems like their instinct has been to hunker down, keep with their supremacist attitude and not give in on anything (not even a quarter of the type of accommodation they impose and receive from minorities in Muslim majority countries..) – Best exemplified by Kabir here – Islamic state for me, Secular republic for you. b) A mainstream political party that can accommodate Muslim aspirations – a revived Congress if that ever happens

        2. And this justifies lynching people? This justifies a Muslim man being beaten and made to chant “Modi Zindabad”?

          Instead of coming out and unequivocally comdemning Hindu majoritarianism, you somehow turn it around on Muslims. When did you become such a troll?

    1. After looking her up, I think what’s more important than wokism is the fact that she’s 42 and single.

      Can’t blame anyone in that position for going a bit crazy, especially women. Wokism only colors the manifestation at the surface.

    2. Who specifically is the Iranian-American that lusts after brown man? Also, I think you mentioned on Twitter that it was Hindus so as a proud male Hindu who is she and how can I hit her up.

  20. enough of IVC was in india including Gujarat. Modi and aamit shah homeland . DNA wise they resemble original IVC people more with less steppe and more aasi + indus farmer given Guju OBC and mid caste background respectively than likely any if the Pak Punjabi Sunni agricultural tribe descendant supremacists that dominate those boards.

    These revisionists should stick to claiming to be arabs and living in fantasy or they may find out they have more in common with Indians than they would like to believe.

  21. Can anyone recommend a method to calculate my Steppe/IVC/AASI components for free? I’m looking for something like Zack’s DIY HarrapaWorld calculator with ancient populations.

    1. go to reich lab and check what guju brahmins got in narsimhan et al 2018 supplemental table. Just know 25% of indus is aasi so adjust for that

      1. Not sure if your comment was intended to be a reply to me, but I was wondering if there was structure between brahmin communities within Gujarat (i.e. Nagar vs. Bardai vs. Gauda etc.)

    2. Yeah you can use vahaduo or geneplot. But first you need to get your g25 co-ordinates. Upload your raw data file to David @ Eurogenes and he will provide for you. Just search “Eurogenes G25” and you’ll find his blog. I believe he charges a small fee like 20 bucks or something.

      I’m surprised Razib hasn’t created a co-ordinate based system specifically for south asians. There is a business opportunity there. But I’m guessing he may have a day job.

    1. @indwoody, re lower iq of bihar compared to himachal, punjab, this might be due to higher degree of malnourishment especially in the critical period(during womb) and the first five years of childhood, high pathogenic load during to extremely bad hygenic practices. Add to that possibly transgenerational effects of famine like conditions that became prevalent in the bihar during the raj period .

  22. https://www.livemint.com/opinion/columns/the-clarity-with-which-atheists-should-view-believers-11596983568845.html

    “The more we insult the past in the name of the future, the more territory the present will have to concede to the past.

    How then can modern folk, who so claim to love heritage, lament God? The true heritage of a place is rarely what global intellectuals nag us about. The real culture of a place is what does not require nagging and lament—like local food, music, practical garments, rituals and God.

    Those who are hurt by a scratch on an ancient monument are often the type who constantly disfigure ancient myths. For instance, the almost annual feminist rewriting of Sita as a more independent woman. Sita shows us the preoccupations of another time, just as Agatha Christie’s depictions of Africans were a reflection of her times. Should heritage only be what is good about our ancestors that modern atheists approve of? From a literary point of view, it is pointless to convert a figure like Sita into an unremarkable fictitious modern person.

    In this light, believers are our true conservationists. They resist the sanctimonious marauders who try to demolish their faith in order to build a shrine to modernity.”

  23. @Kabir
    I have nothing against Islam, but you are very less knowledgeable. I don’t hate muslims; some of them really have very admirable qualities. Alas, people like you are hell-bent on dividing humans from humans.

    Anyways, here is another fact for you:
    > Nehru overrode Patel’s decision of giving Jammu and Kashmir to Pakistan. As a Nehruvian secularist, you should accept his decision. It is only and only because of him that Jammu and Kashmir became part of India.
    Hope you practice what you preach.

    @Kabir, if you really want to be Nehruvian secularist, first you have to be a Gandhian. To be so, remember: Hate the sin, not the sinner. Correct your own faults, rather than to pontificate at others.

    Now, from this moment, you should start an agitation in Pakistan to stop discrimination against Shias, Ahmadis, Christians, etc. Do what Jinnah wanted you to do.

    Don’t just speak empty words, follow the path of frontier Gandhi, and fight the evil in your heart, society and nation. Break the communal laws in your country, and create a Naya, i.e., secular Pakistan.

    Don’t be a follower, be a leader.

    1. Someone who calls people “taqiyyaman” is an Islamophobe. This “I don’t hate Muslims” coming from you is like a racist making the argument “But I have a Black friend!”

      Being a Nehruvian Secularist doesn’t mean that one has to agree with everything that Nehru ever did. Pandit Nehru jailed Sheikh Abdullah for calling for the plebsicite–an action which I will never defend. He also betrayed his own promise in front of the entire International Community that Kashmiris would not be joined to India by force.

      Kashmir is not “part of India”. It is a DISPUTED TERRITORY. I’m sorry I have to repeat this constantly but it seems to not get into your heads. I am an ethnic Kashmiri Muslim. This is my ancestral homeland you are talking about.

      What makes you think I don’t defend minority rights in Pakistan? You’re really making a lot of assumptions about me. For all you know, I might even be Shia.

      It is the right of the National Assembly of Pakistan to decide whether the country should be Islamic or secular. My personal opinion is neither here nor there.

      1. You can try all you want to evoke a certain emotion out of people, but sometimes it just can’t happen. The Muslims of Kashmir kicked out most of the Hindus out of Kashmir. The blunt truth is that most political Hindus don’t have much empathy for the Muslims of Kashmir after that act. I’m not going to waste my time thinking about the well being of a population which would have happily kicked me out Kashmir, had I been born there. And I doubt there’s much you can do to evoke sympathy even from non-political Hindus for the Muslims of Kashmir. We care much more about the land than we do about the people who currently occupy it.

        1. “We care much more about the land then about the people who currently occupy it– Thanks for coming out and stating your colonialist attitude so openly. Imagine if the British had said in the 1940s about India: “We care much more about the land then about the “natives” who occupy it”. You all would have (rightly) been up in arms.

          Kashmir belongs to the Kashmiri people. If you’re not an ethnic Kashmiri, shut the fuck up.

          1. For obvious reasons most Indians will never say these things out loud. But the fact remains that in the Hindu worldview, Kashmir does not just belong to the Kashmiri Muslims. Islam is obviously not native to the land of Kashmir and we see its history as a bunch of foreigners conquering a land and then forcefully converting one segment of the population by violence while killing or kicking out the remaining. We don’t consider it an Islamic land because Islam got it through violence and so violence against the aggressor is completely justified. If the Kashmiri Muslims so badly want to be free of India and live in an Islamic state, they are free to go to any of the countries from where the conquerors came. I feel bad for you and the Kashmiri Muslims because I understand their point. But Bharat is not going to lose anymore of its land to Islam after 1947.

          2. Kashmir existed before either “India” or “Pakistan” were created on August 15, 1947.

            Pandit Nehru promised the Kashmiri people in front of the International Community that they would not be joined to India by force. That promise has been betrayed.

            I really don’t care about your logic because it is typical of colonialists everywhere. After India’s annexation last year and the continued atrocities (a fake “encounter” in Shopian occured just recently) decent people around the world will eventually support the struggle for a free Kashmir just as all decent people support a free Palestine.

      2. ” I am an ethnic Kashmiri Muslim. This is my ancestral homeland you are talking about.”

        Are you full Kashmiri, just curious?

        1. My father’s ancestors came to Kashmir from Iran. From there, they went to various parts of British India.

          My maternal grandfather was descended from Kashmiris. For all I know, his ancestors were Pandits before they became Muslim.

  24. Question:

    If someone wants a united Hindu identity (transcending caste / region) and reasonable economic liberalization for India.

    Over trad Hindu caste politics. Or over a Marxist cultural revolution.

    Also he does not particularly dislike Islam and definitely doesn’t want to see any hate crime attacks on Indian Muslims.

    What is the best party to support in Indian politics rn?

    1. Aam Aadmi Party is the closest you’ll get to this. There are factions in Congress that might support this view but they are too beholden to the dynasty.

      Almost all other parties are Marxist or identitarian.

      Lok Satta Party was another attempt at a classical liberal party that failed.

      The Indian middle class is still too small for such parties to gain traction outside of small rich states like Delhi. Here’s to hoping we see more of them in the decades to come.

  25. @Kabir
    Pointing your faults makes me a messenger, not your enemy. Remember, Jesus Christ is also your Prophet; convince others by love rather than abuses. If they abuse you, shower them with love. Don’t deny your heritage! Create a secular Pakistan, better than Europe. Don’t forget, if yesterday Turkey was a Muslim caliphate, then today it is a secular state. Fight, fight, and fight again until you achieve your goal; don’t delay your aim. Show to Indians how secular you are!

    Be a better person than Nehru and Gandhi. Secularism is in your hands, you just have to strive for it. As I start, I recommend making an Ahmadi, Jew, or a Christian as your Prime Minister. This will show to Indians how great Naya Pakistan is!

    1. Pakistan is an Islamic Republic. A non-Muslim cannot be the PM. It is up to the National Assembly to re-write the Constitution and change this if they want (not that that will ever happen).

      Similarly the Parliament of India can rewrite your Constitution and declare you guys a Hindu Rashtra.

      Please don’t use the phrase “Naya Pakistan” since it is a phrase associated with the Right-wing PTI.

      And “taqiyaaman” is a slur. I’m waiting for an apology.

  26. @Kabir
    If it makes you a better person, surely I apologize; otherwise, my apology is meaningless. Why just rest at my apology? Get my appreciation too! Just like Gandhi, don’t obey unjust laws. Be the change that you wish to see in the world. We are all just actors who leave the stage after acting our part. So, what are you afraid of?

      1. Kabir by this logic, if you were living in Nazi Germany, would you also be following the laws of that country?

        1. Comparing Pakistan to Nazi Germany is ridiculous. There are no concentration camps.

          If you want to compare countries, India recently passed its own version of the Nuremburg Laws (CAA) redefining citizenship in terms of religion.

          I am not interested in engaging with you. You’re an anti-Pakistan and anti-Muslim troll. Please cease addressing comments to me.

          1. non-muslims are second-class citizens in pakistan. they basically live under a form of jim crow. cerainly comparable to pre-1940 nazi Germany. they get killed by vigilante justice. lynchings. these happen in the country where you live such a comfortable well-appointed life. politicians get assassinated for objecting to these lynchings and murders.

            the number of muslims increases in India, and it even has to deal with illegal migration of muslims from Bangladesh (until recently at least). there is no comparison btwn Pakistan and india.

            you may call me an idiot, but i happen to know you’re kind of stupid, so stop it.

          2. I was addressing Advik. He’s an anti-Pakistan and anti-Muslim troll. Not interested in engaging with him.

            Razib, surely you’re smart enough to understand that comparing an Islamic Republic to a Constitutionally Secular state is completely illogical. Secular states must be held to higher standards than religiously-based ones. If India constutionally becomes a Hindu Rashtra, then I promise never to complain about the Muslims that get lynched. A 52 year old Muslim man was beaten last Friday and made to chant “Modi Zindabad”.

            The comparison of CAA and the Nuremberg Laws is not mine but comes from the great Arundhati Roy, a person I trust much more than anyone on this blog.

          3. I’m not anti-Pakistan or anti-Muslim and you have no proof to back it up. Meanwhile, you denigrated the Ramayana as “not a very good book” and constantly push anti-male Hindu talking points so please fuck off.

          4. Advik,

            We all remember your previous comments. You wished Gandhi ji had been murdered at birth. You called Pandit Nehru an “Islamist”. You are a Hindu extremist troll.

            I am entitled to my literary judgement of the “Ramayana” or any other book. I have a degree in Literature. You don’t. I’m far more credible on this than you.

            I will “fuck off” if you cease addressing me. Hindu troll.

          5. Having a degree doesn’t mean jack shit, Kabir. Anyone should be allowed to talk about anything under the sun.

          6. You can talk about whatever you want. No one is stopping you. But someone with a degree in Literature is far more credible on that subject than someone without.

            Just as my opinions about Computer Science are neither here nor there.

          7. This is like saying the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea should be held to a higher standard than the Republic of Korea because one asserts that it is democratic.

  27. For obvious reasons most Indians will never say these things out loud. But the fact remains that in the Hindu worldview, Kashmir does not just belong to the Kashmiri Muslims. Islam is obviously not native to the land of Kashmir and we see its history as a bunch of foreigners conquering a land and then forcefully converting one segment of the population by violence while killing or kicking out the remaining. We don’t consider it an Islamic land because Islam got it through violence and so violence against the aggressor is completely justified. If the Kashmiri Muslims so badly want to be free of India and live in an Islamic state, they are free to go to any of the countries from where the conquerors came. I feel bad for you and the Kashmiri Muslims because I understand their point. But Bharat is not going to lose anymore of its land to Islam after 1947.

    this is like the Jewish claim to Palestine. it convinces jews, but no one else. kashmir was 95% Muslim even before the pandits were kicked out. weirdly, muslims make the same claim on India. it was part of dar-ul-islam, so it always is. of course it’s just as intellectually fatuous as your claim.

    the indian assimilation of kashmir will happen if the demographics change.

    as for the conversion of kashmir, this summary is Wikipedia is a little clumsy, but I’ve read this in books:
    Rinchen was a pseudo- Buddhist and wanted to get initiated into Brahmanism to strengthen his political base in the Kashmir valley. Since Shaivism was the popular religion at the time in the valley, Rinchen approached Devaswami, the religious head of the Shaivas, for initiation into the Hindu religion. Devaswami, after holding a secret meeting on the subject with prominent Kashmiri Pandits of the time, refused to accept Rinchen into Hinduism, because of Rinchen’s low birth.

    basically a tibetan Buddhist conqueror approaches to be converted to shaivism, brahmins give him the hand, so he looks to islam.

    hindu persistence in the face of Islam is impressive. but hindus shooting themselves in the face periodically with their snobery is also a thing (perhaps this explains the former, but it is what it is).

    1. >>basically a tibetan Buddhist conqueror approaches to be converted to shaivism, brahmins give him the hand, so he looks to islam.

      This is disputed. For reference read page 373 of RC Majumdar’s book [1].

      Quoting from his book:

      1. ” It is generally assumed by the historians that Rihchana had embraced the Muslim faith and assumed the name of Sadr-ud-din. Jonaraja, however, does not refer to it. Some support to the tradition may be found in his statement that “the king asked Sri Devasvami to initiate him in the mantras of Siva, but as he was a Bhotta, Devasvaml feared that the king was unworthy of such initiation, and did not favour him”. But as this is not followed by any reference to the adoption of Islam by the king, it constitutes a very strong negative evidence against the popular tradition.”

      2. “It is also to be noted that both Nizam-ud-dln and Firishta describe Rihchana as an infidel …”

      3. “Both these authorities look upon Shah Mir as the first Muslim Sultan of Kashmir.”

      Since you pointed out that Muslims constiutued 95% of Kashmir before the Pandits were kicked out, allow me to get into the history of Kashmir became Muslim majority. From page 378 of the above book:

      1) Sikandar’s reign marks a turning-point in the history of Kashmir from social and religious point of view.

      2) … This was probably due to the paucity of Muslims in the country. But a great change took place during the reign of Sikandar. A large immigration of Muslims from outside flooded the country, and there seems to be little doubt that they brought with them that fanatic iconoclastic zeal which distinguished Islam in other parts of India, but from which Kashmir was happily free up to this time.

      3) Attracted by the gifts and honours which the king bestowed, and by his kindness, the mlechchhas entered Kasmira even as locusts enter a good field of corn.

      4) The king forgot his kingly duties and took a delight day and night, in breaking images…. He broke the images of Martanda, Vishaya, Isana, Chakrabhrit and Tripuresvara. There was no city, no town, no village, no wood where Suha the Turushka left the temples of gods unbroken.

      5) An attempt was made to destroy the caste of the Brahmanas by force, and those who resisted it were subjected to heavy fines.”

      6) Sikandar issued “orders proscribing the residence of any person other than Muhammadans in Kashmir; and he required that no man should wear the mark on his forehead, or any woman be permitted to burn with her husband’s corpse… “

      7) Firishta continues: “Many of the Brahmins, rather than abandon their religion or their country, poisoned themselves; some emigrated from their native homes, while a few escaped the evil of banishment by becoming Muhammadans. After the emigration of the Brahmins, Sikandar ordered all the temples in Kashmir to be thrown down.”

      8) Firishta writes: “That statesman (Suhabhatta), with all the zeal of a convert, persecuted the few Brahmins who still remained firm to their religion; and by putting all to death who refused to embrace Mohamedanism, he drove those who still lingered in Kashmir entirely out of that kingdom.”

      While a genocide was carried out in the late 14th century, similar practices were carried out even in the 18th century (refer to page 165 of [2]).

      >>this is like the Jewish claim to Palestine. it convinces jews, but no one else. kashmir was 95% Muslim even before the pandits were kicked out. weirdly, muslims make the same claim on India. it was part of dar-ul-islam, so it always is. of course it’s just as intellectually fatuous as your claim.

      At the end of the day might is right. And Indian is mightier than Kashmir and Pakistan put together. Therefore, the arguments that Pakistanis make about their claim on India being a dau-ul-islam at one point and so it must always be an Islamic land are meaningless because there is no way they can enforce their worldview. Whereas India can enforce its view on Kashmir. That is why, what Indians believe about Kashmir is very important and Kashmiris shot themselves in the foot by the ethnic cleansing of Pandits.

      >>the indian assimilation of kashmir will happen if the demographics change.

      I completely agree. There is no other to assimiliate and this is what will happen.

      [1] https://archive.org/details/delhisultanate00bhar
      [2] https://archive.org/details/marathasupremacy08bhar/page/730

      1. A large immigration of Muslims from outside flooded the country, and there seems to be little doubt that they brought with them that fanatic iconoclastic zeal which distinguished Islam in other parts of India, but from which Kashmir was happily free up to this time.

        this is made up unless the migrants were celibate. the genetics of kashmiris doesn’t indicate they’re that different from pandits.

        kashmir was probably converted not through strong coercion but soft coercion, like everywhere else. the persistence of brahmins confirms that, as muslims like to kill and force-convert them FIRST not LAST.

        At the end of the day might is right.

        useless without demographic change. stronger powers can’t conquer small ones if they won’t incur the costs of being bled, and eventually, they won’t. unless indians just want to genocide the local kashmiris (i mean real genocide not cultural)

        1. >>this is made up unless the migrants were celibate. the genetics of kashmiris doesn’t indicate they’re that different from pandits.

          I don’t think think the argument is that the migration was a sizeable part of the native population and hence enough to change the native genetics. More so that the new king, worried about the loyalties of his Hindu subjects, invited foreign Muslims to occupy important positions. Take for example leading separatists like Syed Ali Shah Geelani or Miwaiz Umar Farooq who proudly trace their ancestry back to Arabs or Persians.

          >>unless indians just want to genocide the local kashmiris (i mean real genocide not cultural)

          That is not going to happen. That fear might exist in some of the most paranoid minds in Kashmir but even the most Hindutvawaadi of Hindu will tell that is never going to happen. Demographic change is the way to go.

    2. Well, humans generally don’t think of themselves as contenders in a clash of civilizations, they usually just go along with the ideas of their social milieu. Hindu elites formed certain ideas in a certain context, and those ideas sometimes ended up becoming maladaptive when faced with a dramatically different context.

      Another example of this would be Arab cousin marriage, which made a lot of sense when Arabs were herders and needed to forge familial alliances and avoid splitting the herd and losing out on economies of scale…and which is profoundly maladaptive when it comes to establishing a modern state.

  28. I’ve never been to Kashmir, but will probably visit it once in my lifetime. Lets hope the communal tensions dont prevent that from happening.

  29. @Razib

    Am I banned? Something is not right with the commenting system. Many of my comments (even trivial ones that I am sure were not thrown away by moderators) sometimes don’t show up at all.

    Can’t comment on the other thread so here goes:

    ‘no fucking way they READ it’

    In UP(specifically Awadh/Bundelkhand and maybe even Braj regions which primarily worship Rama and Hanuman) we have community ‘Sundar-Kanda’ part of Ramayan recitals every Tuesday in almost every temple(not just priests) or at home. Many people (can comment authoritatively about Yadav-heartland) read it on their own for their whole lives every week. My parents have a strange pact that one of them has to read it. Usually it is my father but my mother pitches in when he can’t do it. They have been doing it quietly for many decades now without mentioning it to anyone. My maternal grand parents did it before them.

    Everyone in my family and almost every even moderately interested hindu (except the illiterate who are always welcome to play manjira, dholak or harmonium or simply clap) I knew has recited it. In worst case scenario people repeat ‘samput’ after every verse. All this is due to Tulsidas who brought Rama to non-Brahmins.

    Then their are the quite common big Akhand(unbroken) Ramayan recitals(‘paath’ in Hindi) that people organize that run for days without stopping which need a lot of people to sing Ramayana(as the recital has to be continuous). A lot of people (usually teams of 3-5 each pitching in for 3-4 hours with extra helpers for water, food, manual fan, candles etc arrangements) are needed to pull it off and I have never heard anyone refusing to pitch in as and when needed.

    Overwhelming numbers of Thakur-Bamans-Baniyas-Yadavs and maybe even Kayasths have definitely read it.

    1. That’s the difference within north and rest of India. Not only have UCs have read or heard it, event OBCs ( like my family) and Dalits have read or heard it.

      1. Come on Saurav, there was “paraayanam” (reading) in every evening in villages. This is the South Indian OBC side. The belief that listening/reading Sundara kanda gets things done is all over the country.
        Also, reading Geetha was almost mandatory if there was death in family until the day of wake.
        You make it sound all South Indians are urban or something.

        1. LOL, apologies.

          I forget in textual, literal stuff S-Indian Hinduism is better than N-India. In South , Hinduism is a religious identity. In the North its a (semi) ethnic identity.

        2. @Violet
          I remember your previous comment regarding Statistics. Are you an expert in it? Do you have an engineering background? Are you also an expert in ML? In the future, can I ask my doubts regarding these topics?

          1. @timepaas,

            I am not an ML expert (and at a career stage where I don’t do anything fun hands-on anymore) but a civil/structural engineer with about two decades research in quantitative risk/reliability and uncertainty modelling.

            Please feel free ask any questions you have on stats/data analytics and I will try to point you the sources.

            Sorry I didn’t see your comment earlier because BP moves too fast for me to catch up and track my own comments.

      2. @Saurav
        In my head for Awadh’s community pujas (very different in other places):

        1) almost exclusively brahmin/thakur organized pujas: Rudrabhishekham, large communal homas of gayatri parivar type and durga-puja

        2) overwhelmingly Baniya organized pujas: Monthly Lakshmi-narayan vrats, Mata-jagran, janmasthami, pravachan from ‘saints’ 🙂

        3) overwhelmingly Yadav/Ahir organized pujas: Kathas , Ekadasi, nirjala-type hardcore stuff.

        Really rich people do Srimad-bhagwatam. On their son’s death(who was one out of three) my father’s uncle-aunt spent a third of all their money (which he would have inherited) on organizing top-tier aastha-TV level Bhagwat puja in Kanpur. Spent something like 20-25 lakhs on pujas and more on renovating temples in ancestral village.

        Smart/well-read people get bhagwad-geeta recitals.

        1. One of the other thing which goes under the radar for Baniyas that in Central-Eastern Indian, they have donated for building of small temples in Adivasis dominated areas. Not old but relatively new ones like 1900s onwards. I know community wise village building but hadn’t come across community donating to a temple being built in far flung area, an area u would hardly even visit ever.

          My fav pass time was to read the plaque on those temples, and almost all of them were Baniyas and very few Kshatriya and Brahmins.

          1. @Saurav There is a religious-based community compulsion in many Baniyas that involves habitually donating large sums for temple-building, hospital building, ashram building, and various other public works. I think it’s seen as an important part of Vaishya Dharam. I’ve heard of this practice many times in the context of previous generations (grandparents, great-grandparents). I wonder if the practice is waning.

            One example is a practice I’ve encountered called “Tula Daan”. I think it involves a puja, the weighing of an elder in the community, and then a subsequent donation or alms-giving.

  30. Sorry guys if I end up polluting good threads with repeated comments showing up, there is some issue with my computer, will reinstall browser/VPN to see if it gets fixed. Here is the final one for the day:

    Mahabharata and Ramayana were not supposed to be ‘literature’ or even revealed texts.

    I know many here like Razib don’t have time/desire to watch Youtube stuff posted by random people like me but consider giving the following at-least a try for a detailed gora (and coconut) friendly introduction to Dharmic bedrock ideas, this guy just ‘gets’ it:

    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLh4VALzK9oQk2jGci7Q4_kne1s7FvoMVy

    @Prats have a look at these videos.

    ‘Gaze upon me, I manifest for thee
    Those hundred thousand thousand shapes that clothe my Mystery:
    I show thee all my semblances, infinite, rich, divine,
    My changeful hues, my countless forms. See! in this face of mine,
    Wonders unnumbered, Indian Prince! revealed to none save thee.
    Behold! this is the Universe!’
    -Krishna to Arjuna

    from Edwin Arnold’s translation of Bhagwad Geeta

  31. @Kabir
    You again show your ignorance by hiding behind “the law of the land” claim. Your country signed up the “Universal Declaration of Human Rights” in the UN. All your discriminatory laws are illegal and have no locus standi. I suggest leaving the UN so that you and your country can morally continue to be barbarians.

    1. You’re calling me a “barbarian”? It is not my country that is lynching minorities for what they eat. It is not my country that destroys minority places of worship and builds temples there.

      Fuck off Hindutvadi. Who the hell are you to lecture the Islamic Republic of Pakistan?

    2. @Kabir
      I have never seen anyone lie so brazenly. At least in India, laws are not discriminatory. Muslims in India have not only vandalized other religious places (just recently in the capital New Delhi), but also Amar Jawan Jyoti honoring all Indians who laid down their lives defending the country. Just because some Muslims spat on, desecrated and abused the memories of their ancestors, I don’t call them barbarians but criminals. If your country refuses to follow the law of the land, what can I call you except a “barbarian”? Why did your country accept the law in the first place? Also, what about the destruction of religious places in your country? Or of historical monuments? All this shows your country has neither principles nor shame. Continue to live in your imaginary world or the “Islamic Republic of Pakistan”.

      If you don’t want to be called a barbarian leave the UN. I won’t call you and your ilk barbarian then, just queer. If your country does not want to be called a barbarian, why did your government sign the law? Ask your government to rectify this ASAP.

      1. Are you stupid? It’s not logical to compare an ISLAMIC Republic to a SECULAR state.

        And anti-Muslim POGROMS occured in your national capital as recently as February.

        You are an Islamophobe and an anti-Pakistan troll. Ignoring you from now on.

      2. Both Hindus and Muslims are patriotic citizens of India. We will sort out our problems. We don’t need a “barbarian” — who cannot even follow “the law of the land” — telling us what to do. At least, other Islamic countries opposed the UN law; I respect them a lot for their principled stand. Pakistan, however, is as hollow as you are, wanting to be both “secular” and “islamist”. This is also the reason why your country is routinely humiliated by OIC. Who can tolerate a “barbarian”?

        You even besmirch the memory of your father of the nation: you are incorrigible.

        1. Clearly, you’re an idiot. SECULAR states are held to higher standards than religiously-based ones.

          Again, POGROMS against Muslims occured in your national capital as recently as February. Citizens of a Hindu majoritarian hellhole have no credibility lecturing Pakistanis or calling us “barbarians”. Go to hell.

        2. A “barbarian” deciding what the standard should be, or when a riot is a pogrom. Oh well, continue to hide behind the canard of being “islamist”. Is humiliation by OIC not enough? If you all don’t believe in something, then why do you and your country pontificate about it?

          1. Not interested in engaging further with someone who doesn’t know the difference between the definitions of “riot” and “pogrom”. The only people who call what happened in February “riots” are Hindutvadis.

            It is precisely because I strongly believe in Nehruvian Secularism that I hold constitutionally secular India to a higher standard than Islamic Pakistan. I am extremely distressed that Pandit Nehru’s secular India is turning into a Hindu majoritarian hellhole called “Bharat”.

        3. @Kabir
          I got it the first time: You are a Nehruvian secularist, just as Pakistan — a country that did not even spare fellow Muslims against its depredations — is “Islamist”. Power-hungry “barbarians” in your country clearly will not rest content unless they spread lawlessness everywhere.

          Bharat is an ancient name of India that has existed for millennia. Even your ancestors — whether from Iran or Kashmir — knew that. According to our constitution, India and Bharat are synonymous, and they are the official names of our country.

          Whether the incident in Delhi was a pogrom or riot will be decided by the Supreme Court. I have no quibbles in calling a riot a pogrom if it was so. What I actually wish is for religion to lose its importance; I suppose it will happen eventually.

          I will repeat what I said earlier: If today Pakistan is islamist, it can be secular tomorrow. It all depends on Pakistanis like you.

          1. Secular Indians use the term “India” while Hindutvadis use “Bharat”.

            Pakistan is not “Islamist” but “Islamic”. There is a difference.

            Again, I am not a member of the National Assembly. It is the National Assembly that decides on our Constitution.

            And one could make the argument that there was no point to having a sovereign Pakistan without Islam. We might as well have stayed under Hindu Raj.

          2. //Secular Indians use the term “India” while Hindutvadis use “Bharat”.
            That’s a dumb way to categorize it. The official name of Republic of India in Devanagari is Bharat Ganrajya. There is nothing remotely close to Hindutva in it, its there in the constitution that your beloved chachaji signed.

            //Pakistan is not “Islamist” but “Islamic”. There is a difference.
            There is no difference. It’s a nation that subjugates it’s citizens with a barbaric shariah law. “ist” does not make a difference to the millions of Shias, Ahmedias, Hindus and Sikhs.

  32. >>Pandit Nehru promised the Kashmiri people in front of the International Community that they would not be joined to India by force. That promise has been betrayed.

    The implicit assumption behind that promise was that the Kashmiri Muslims wouldn’t throw out the Hindus out of Kashmir while chanting “Ralev, Galev ya Chalev” and “Azadi kya matlab kya, La ilah illallah”.

    1. 1990 was long after Pandit Nehru made the promise in 1949.

      But the whataboutary about the Pandits is of course the first defense of the Hindutvadi.

      1. Pandit Nehru made that promise to the united J&K. If and when Pakistan and China remove their occupation force from Jammu & Kashmir, India will conduct a plebiscite. Instead of adding those lands in paper, Pakistan, a nation that cares so much about Kashmir, should vacate it and give the people of Kashmir a chance at peace.

        1. Sure, India will conduct a plebsicite. After settling so many Hindu Indians in the Valley that the plebsicite no longer has any meaning. “Demographic change” is the Hindutvadi plan.

          There is no comparison between AZAD Kashmir and IOK. No one in Azad Kashmir is fighting the Pakistani Army. The Pakistani Army is not doing “fake encounters” of Kashmiri men (one happened in Shopian just a few weeks ago). The Pakistani Army is not raping Kashmiri women.

          IOK is a colony of Hindu India. Even if Pakistan gives up our claim tomorrow, Kashmiri Muslims will continue fighting for freedom from Hindu India.

          1. //Sure, India will conduct a plebsicite. After settling so many Hindu Indians in the Valley that the plebsicite no longer has any meaning. “Demographic change” is the Hindutvadi plan.
            Be consistent in what you ask for. You are the one that has harped incessantly on the Indian/Nehru promise. That’s the UN accepted pre-condition for conducting a plebiscite. Vacate the lands, remove the Mirpuri’s, then India will conduct it. If India were to change the demographic, it would’ve done it a long back.

            //There is no comparison between AZAD Kashmir and IOK. No one in Azad Kashmir is fighting the Pakistani Army.
            UN does not recognize an area called Azad Kashmir. It’s Pakistan occupied Kashmir. Any real progress in J&K will happen only if the state is unified.

            //The Pakistani Army is not doing “fake encounters” of Kashmiri men (one happened in Shopian just a few weeks ago). The Pakistani Army is not raping Kashmiri women.
            Sure, so says a Pakistani. May be a Baluchi’s version will be different.

            //IOK is a colony of Hindu India. Even if Pakistan gives up our claim tomorrow, Kashmiri Muslims will continue fighting for freedom from Hindu India.
            You are not a God, you cannot predict future. J&K is a recognized UT of Republic of India, unlike the PoK scam. Remember, it is the same population that helped Indian Army to beat Pakistani Army in 49 and 65.

            And who is Pakistan to claim? I thought Kashmiri’s will decide their future on their own?

          2. If you aren’t aware of the demographic changes being planned by giving “domicile certificates” to non-Kashmiris, you’re hopelessly behind.

            The UN doesn’t use the word “Occupied”. It refers to “Pakistan-Administered” or “Pakistan-controlled” Kashmir. “POK” is an Indian term just like “IOK” is a Pakistani term. However, the people of Muzaffarabad do call their homeland AZAD Kashmir (my uncle’s family lives there).

            The word is “Baloch” not “Balochi”. And Balochistan has nothing to do with Kashmir. There are no reported cases of Pakistani troops raping Kashmiri women. In IOK, there are several cases. Remember Asiya and Neelofar?

            “You’re not a god”– Yes, true. However just as the Palestinians have been fighting the Zionists since 1948, Kashmiri Muslims will continue fighting Hindu India with or without Pakistan. You all have committed enough atrocities against them in the past 30 years. Look at the “Go India go back” graffiti in Srinagar. Speak to a Kashmiri Muslim. The truth is your country is considered an Occupying state. People in Kashmir hate you and they hate the “mainstream” politicians that collaborate with you.

            I have no more interest in engaging with an anti-Pakistan Indian nationalist. Buzz off.

          3. //If you aren’t aware of the demographic changes being planned by giving “domicile certificates” to non-Kashmiris, you’re hopelessly behind.
            “Planned” is the operating word, for all practical purposes those are people who lived their entire lives in Kashmir. Pakistan has unilaterally changed the demographics in the occupied Kashmir by settling Mirpuris, giving away a parcel to China and settling ex army men. India is just catching up.

            //The UN doesn’t use the word “Occupied”. It refers to “Pakistan-Administered” or “Pakistan-controlled” Kashmir. “POK” is an Indian term just like “IOK” is a Pakistani term. However, the people of Muzaffarabad do call their homeland AZAD Kashmir (my uncle’s family lives there).
            If a bunch of terrorists call it Mars does not make occupied Kashmir as Mars. I like the way you skirted my question to you. Let me ask again, what are the pre-conditions that are agreed upon by Pakistan and India in the UN to conduct a plebiscite??

            //The word is “Baloch” not “Balochi”. And Balochistan has nothing to do with Kashmir. There are no reported cases of Pakistani troops raping Kashmiri women. In IOK, there are several cases. Remember Asiya and Neelofar?

            Balochi is the language, so Balochi means people who speak that language, is it that hard to understand? And yes, Baluchistan has everything to do with Kashmir. Your brown panted army is killing and raping Balochi women, kidnap their children and bomb innocents. There is a freedom fight that’s going on for 50 plus years.

            //“You’re not a god”– Yes, true. However just as the Palestinians have been fighting the Zionists since 1948, Kashmiri Muslims will continue fighting Hindu India with or without Pakistan.

            Kashmiris are Indian citizens, the state will take care of them, don’t need sermons from a nation that has shariah law.

            //You all have committed enough atrocities against them in the past 30 years. Look at the “Go India go back” graffiti in Srinagar.

            So does the Baluchis say, I don’t see Pakistan vacating that land?

            //Speak to a Kashmiri Muslim. The truth is your country is considered an Occupying state. People in Kashmir hate you and they hate the “mainstream” politicians that collaborate with you.

            Speak to Baluchis. The truth is Pakistan is considered an occupying state. People in Baluchistan hate you and they hate the “mainstream” politicians that collaborate with you.

            //I have no more interest in engaging with an anti-Pakistan Indian nationalist. Buzz off.
            This is neither your website nor your are an admin here, so piss off.

          4. A) Mirpur is part of AZAD Kashmir. Look at a map. So Mirpuris don’t need to be removed anywhere.

            B) I think you’re one of those Indians that seem to have great difficulty with the English language. When the UN refers to “Indian-Administered” Kashmir it clearly implies that India is only ADMINISTERING Kashmir. Kashmir is NOT an “integral part” of India. It is a DISPUTED TERRITORY.

            C) Comparing Balochistan to Kashmir is ridiculous. Balochistan is unequivocally a province of Pakistan. No other country claims it. The Baloch (NOT “Balochi”) were never promised a plebsicite in front of the entire International Community. People who make this comparision are either stupid or disingenuous– you decide which one you are.

            I am not going to waste any more time on anti-Pakistan trolls like you.

            Finally, “nor your are”– Learn English Hindutvadi. Seriously, the way you Hindu Indians murder the English language is appalling. Some advertisement for your country’s education system.

          5. //A) Mirpur is part of AZAD Kashmir. Look at a map. So Mirpuris don’t need to be removed anywhere.//
            Except they aren’t Mirpuris. It is the usual story of Pakistan’s chequered past – raiders, freedom fighters, Punjabis passed as Mirpuris. So the onus is on Pakistan to bring back the demography of PoK as it existed in 1947. Incidentally, that’s another pre-condition set by UN for conducting a plebiscite.

            //B) I think you’re one of those Indians that seem to have great difficulty with the English language. When the UN refers to “Indian-Administered” Kashmir it clearly implies that India is only ADMINISTERING Kashmir. Kashmir is NOT an “integral part” of India. It is a DISPUTED TERRITORY.//

            Heh, enough about my English skills, let me ask you a question in English for the 3rd time. It doesn’t matter, what are the pre-conditions that are agreed upon by Pakistan and India in the UN to conduct a plebiscite??

            //C) Comparing Balochistan to Kashmir is ridiculous. Balochistan is unequivocally a province of Pakistan. No other country claims it.//

            You can be as unequivocal you can be, the Balochi people are claiming they they are an independent nation and not a part of Pakistan.

            //I am not going to waste any more time on anti-Pakistan trolls like you.//
            You are welcome.

            //Finally, “nor your are”– Learn English Hindutvadi. Seriously, the way you Hindu Indians murder the English language is appalling. Some advertisement for your country’s education system.

            Man, did you run out of arguments? You wrote a whole paragraph for a typo. IDK, may be you need a good past time. Lets look at your own post,

            //The Baloch (NOT “Balochi”) were never promised a plebsicite in front of the entire International Community. People who make this comparision are either stupid or disingenuous– you decide which one you are.//

            Did you mean “plebiscite” and “comparison”? You ought to wipe your bottom properly before trying to wipe mine. Based on what I see, looks like Pakistani education is nothing to write home about, even if the said Pakistani had English as his first language.

            If it is anyone, its you who should learn English, you Islamist. Seriously, the way you Islamists Pakistanis murder the English language is appalling. Time to stop learning from madrassa and go to a real school or something?

          6. Linking someone with a Muslim name to a “madrassah” is the first refuge of the Islamophobe.

            For the millionth time on this blog, I am an American citizen. I was educated in the US. I have never seen a madrassah.

            You’re an Indian loser. Buzz off. Also “past time” is not a word. The word is “PASTIME”. Learn English before commenting on the Internet. Pathetic.

  33. Hey razib, maybe this question was asked before but I was wondering whether or not the percentages of steppe ancestry could be over inflated. I’ve heard South Indians have a high ANE component so maybe it’s capturing something else? It’s a bit depressing to think that they had such an impact

    1. Ok, I don’t understand how they calculated it but just wondered if it’s possible. They got it wrong before in 2016 and estimated even more, which is why I was curious.

      It seems like those steppe people were almost genocidal wherever they went. ha

      Oh yeah, one more thing I remembered is that they used to say the ANI component was most similar to Georgians/people from the Caucasus and that Europeans were not a good outgroup. If the steppe had made a significant impact, I thought it should be closer to Europeans.

      1. Which Europeans? Who were Europeans 4000 years ago? Where they lived? Which language they spoke? Cheers

  34. https://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/columns/secularism-pratap-bhanu-mehta-yogendra-yadav-ayodhya-ram-temple-babri-masjid-6549335/

    “The current contest is over nationalism that has colonised both religion and secularism. Who gets to be a member of this political community, do its dominant narratives have space for its diverse histories? It is not primarily about the pieties of religion.

    To take religion seriously is to preserve the conditions of religious freedom for all, letting each person discover the law of their own Being. I tremble at the thought of a politicised public sphere taking religion seriously. It usually means someone else gets to define who you are, it usually means creating authoritative versions of religion that benchmark good or bad believers, it means sanitising religious histories of their pasts so that they become comforting narratives for people, and it means instrumentalising religion to political purposes. We do not need another version of what it means to be a good Hindu. Who can be presumptuous enough to define or benchmark that? ”

    The real fear of trads and “Hindus” like Mehta and Tharoor about Hindutva. The loss of power and privilege.

  35. If I was a Pakistani I would have built shitloads of medium-sized dams, barrages to store flash-flood water in Balochistan. By shitloads I mean Japanese level shitload, dam every creek, river, stream, everything. There aren’t any fishes migrating up these seasonal rivers to worry about.

    Such favorable geography (valleys to fill up, choke-points to block) and so sparsely populated. Maybe there is not enough water to make economic-sense but who cares? WB/JICA hand out money for these type of projects almost for free. Anything other than a large dam (I like big ones too but cannot justify them) is a win.

    Look at the before/after pictures to see how drastically landscape and lives change with good water management.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_gxTsT6khg

      1. Yup! Sri Lanka is amazingly lush.

        Ancient waterworks/bridges are more glorious than buildings. I was recently introduced to the interesting story of the stunning Ma’rib Dam (~2000 years old and a very high 15 m for its time) in Yemen. I never imagined any pre-Islam Arabs other than ancient Egyptians could have pulled something like this off. Now that I checked ancient Yemenis were awesome civil-engineers, they built great buildings and bridges and what not.

        https://www.amusingplanet.com/2018/11/the-collapse-of-marib-dam-and-fall-of.html

        1. The last 60 years has changed the urban and rural landscape like never before. Centuries old ponds, canals have been taken over by real estate mafia with the help of politicians. The reason Thanjavur, Nagapattinam and Kumbakonam served as the food bowl is because of the extensive irrigation works done by Cholas and Marathas, from 2 AD and ofcourse the Kavery.
          https://www.thehindu.com/features/metroplus/the-history-of-water-management/article6959204.ece

          This was Madras, a 100 years back,
          https://dsal.uchicago.edu/maps/gazetteer/images/gazetteer_V16_pg378.jpg

          And this is Chennai,
          https://scroll.in/article/856756/six-chennai-maps-spanning-over-a-century-explains-why-the-city-faces-flood-danger-each-year

  36. Linguistics experts here:
    Why is अहिंसा translated as Ahimsa and not Ahinsa? I think in all (North?) Indian languages it is pronounced Ahinsa

    1. That same word would be pronounce as Ahimsa in Sanksrit and Ahinsa in Hindi. The bindu(dot) is a half ‘m’ in sanskrit and a half ‘n’ in hindi. That’s why Sanskrit itself is called Samskrit in that anguage but become Sanksrit in Hindi. Same is true for many other words like Samsara, Samkhya, …

      1. Thanks, GreenVeggie. Is it pronounced AhiMsa in South Indian languages?

        PS: I meant transliterated and not translated in the comment above.

        1. Not sure if it is true for all South Indians but in my family we pronounce it as “m”. We usually add a letter at the end of the word, too.

          Simham (lion), Samskritam, Ahimsa.

  37. Have recently noticed a number of Indian women doing ‘erotica’ on Insta. Matched with a few on dating apps. Couple of them told me they also have Onlyfans and shit.

    Find all this pretty fascinating.

    On the one hand, you have the rise of Hindutva and on the other hand you have a rise of ultra-progressives, albeit from a smaller base.
    (Though it’s large enough in my circle)

    South Bombay, South Delhi, parts of Bangalore, maybe parts of Calcutta/Chennai/Hyderabad/Pune/Ahmedabad might very well be entirely different planets.

    I think we might soon start seeing complaints about ‘gentrification’ or ‘brahmanization’ of sex work.

    1. Out of curiosity do you live in America or India because I can tell you that from living here in Cupertino that Hindu women have been turning into hoes for quite some time now? If you do live in India I hope the situation gets better.

      1. Wow, what cave did you crawl out of? A real shame on the Cupertino name. Stop muddying the Bay Area reputation with your fringe trolling!

        1. Have you ever been to Cupertino? This is how all Hindu guys from Cupertino talk and I assure you I am the pride and joy of this the Bay Area.

          1. Yeah, I’m from a neighboring city, went to a high school next door to Cupertino, have a huge chunk of friends who grew up in Cupertino, and I went to college in NorCal as well. And I assure you, this is not how “we” talk. You, on the other hand, appear to be a mannerless fringe MRA maniac. Wouldn’t be surprised if you were an 18-year-old internet troll who got rejected by some Desi girl you asked out to prom.

            It’s obvious to me, from your internet vitriol and serious lack of respect for women, that you have more than a few mental issues to work through. I’d see a shrink if I were you.

          2. What city around Cupertino did you grow up in? Maybe we can hit each other up and chill out. I’m surprised you’ve never heard Cupertino people talk this way. In my high school (Monta Vista) pretty much all the Indian guys talked this way.

      2. “Out of curiosity do you live in America or India”

        I live in India.

        ” because I can tell you that from living here in Cupertino that Hindu women have been turning into hoes for quite some time now? If you do live in India I hope the situation gets better.”

        Why you slut shaming them?

        1. Going through the arranged marriage process, I can tell you that Desi women are terrible people, very annoying to be around, and not worth it. They flake and ghost, they hedge their bets, some will even tell you “I’m not looking for anything serious, I’m just talking to you because my parents made me.”

          Conversely, women in India are earnest and interested, and much more pleasant to talk to.

          People can get mad, but this is just the reality. I’ve been in the game for a while now. Met a nice Indian girl though, plan to get married in Indian court soon.

          1. Congrats!!

            Getting married in court is pretty atypical however. Are you doing it because of Covid-19?

          2. Congrats…

            I hope people are upvoting because of rishta.

            And not upvoting the “desi (Indian American) women are terrible people part”.”

    2. “Have recently noticed a number of Indian women doing ‘erotica’ on Insta. Matched with a few on dating apps. Couple of them told me they also have Onlyfans and shit.”
      Have you seen Indian subreddits about the same. I couldn’t believe my eyes when a friend of mine showed it to me. Reddit is ground zero for this. Too crass and cheap for my tastes so won’t discuss the details of the subreddit in question but do investigate.

      “I think we might soon start seeing complaints about ‘gentrification’ or ‘brahmanization’ of sex work.”
      I have never delved deep to find out the details (hows and wheres) but it was common among my batch mates in Kgp who returned after interning at Google/Microsoft in the US to ‘hire’ seemingly very well off girlfriend/wife material from conduct/appearance (again I really don’t know the details, its just out of my league stuff) girls from prominent Kolkata colleges for ‘fun’.

      1. “Have you seen Indian subreddits about the same. I couldn’t believe my eyes when a friend of mine showed it to me. Reddit is ground zero for this.”

        I am aware that some desi r/gonewild kind of subreddits exist but don’t know how active they are. My impression was that it was mostly some dudes catfishing but I am updating my views based on recent interactions. I can totally imagine there would be record engagement numbers due to the lockdown.

        Poonam Pandey was the pioneer here.

        Indian guys do act pretty disgusting online. So that acts against the adult content industry getting legitimised in India.

        “it was common among my batch mates in Kgp who returned after interning at Google/Microsoft in the US to ‘hire’ seemingly very well off girlfriend/wife material from conduct/appearance (again I really don’t know the details, its just out of my league stuff) girls from prominent Kolkata colleges for ‘fun’”

        This is the first I am hearing of this. I don’t think there’s anything wrong per se but it might be in legal grey area.

        I do know that a lot of college folks in Delhi frequent the red light area in GB Road.

  38. https://scroll.in/article/969983/how-the-sangh-has-waged-war-to-erase-indias-many-ramayanas-in-its-quest-for-power

    How the Sangh has waged war to erase India’s many Ramayanas in its quest for power

    “Prime Minister Narendra Modi went to Ayodhya for the inauguration of the Ram Mandir on August 5 dressed for the part. His hair and beard had been modelled on the image of the ancient sages that we had imbibed from Amar Chitra Katha comics. And when he spoke, he seemed to have struck all the right chords in speaking of the diversity of the Ramayana traditions, even though the temple where he was speaking was built by ending the very diversity he was invoking. His statements only served to underline that the Sangh’s view of Ram and the Ramayana had triumphed so radically that even diversity could now be paid lip-service.”

    The lament of trads and nominal Hindus.

    1. It’s pretty funny to see people who spend their lives ignoring or trashing Hinduism go and cry crocodile tears about traditions they never gave a crap about except to use it as political football.

      I’ve never met an actually devout or “trad” Hindu with these concerns.

    2. Love Amar Chitra Katha comics. This was how I learnt much of my mythology growing up. What a progressive way to familiarize kids with the epics and stories of their culture.

      I agree there are many Ramayanas, but nowadays kids don’t have interest or time to learn about it. This way, at least one version might make it to the next generation.

      It’s a big, globalized world- we will obviously lose some past diversity as we start to plug into it.

  39. Football (soccer) fans might be interested in this profile of Leicester City midfielder Hamza Choudhury.

    He’s one of only two Asian origin players in the English Premier League.

    https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/49928754

    There haven’t been a lot of subcontinental origin players on the international stage.

    I can think of Vikash Dhorasoo who represented France at the 2006 World Cup and (Surinamese) Dutch right-winder Luciano Narsingh who was briefly considered hot property. There was an English striker, Michael Chopra who was even willing to give up his British citizenship to play for India.

  40. @Kabir
    You can make your point on Kashmir: Be correct factually at least. EIC created Kashmir, just as they created British India. Kashmir was just a province of the Sikh empire — a piece of land conquered and sold — on the whims of EIC. While Pakistan is a new state, India is a successor state — as confirmed by the UN secretariat. Why are you so ignorant? It is frustrating.

    1. “Be correct factually at least”– You’re the one who is factually incorrect. Kashmir was an independent kingdom until it was conquered by the Mughals. After that it was conquered by the Afghans, then the Sikhs. The Dogra Maharaja’s ancestors bought it from the British.

      Both India and Pakistan are socially constructed entities. Neither existed before August 15, 1947. Kashmir is older than both.

      “Why are you so ignorant”?– Please, I’m probably much more educated then you.

    2. @Kabir
      This is the history of all of the Indian subcontinent: Nothing special happened in Kashmir. Every identity is socially constructed. All kingdoms remain independent only until they are conquered. Why is Kashmir special? Kashmir frankly had no independent identity for a long, long time — as you yourself attest. Even now, it lies under the boots of Pakistan, India, and China.

      If this fact stings you a lot, you can start a rebellion against Pakistan for a start. High time for you to walk the talk; liberate Kashmir from the clutches of Punjabi colonialism; pay the debt of your ancestors. If we can have an independent Bangladesh, why not an independent Pakistani Kashmir?

      1. I have debunked your claim that “EIC created Kashmir”. Kashmir existed as a kingdom long before the Indian nation-state.

        “Why is Kashmir special”? Because Pandit Nehru promised a plebsicite in front of the International Community. The UN Resolutions remain valid to this day. They don’t expire with time.

        For your information, AZAD Kashmir is technically not part of Pakistan, but independent. It has its own President and Prime Minister.

        I would be perfectly fine with an independent Kashmir but it would include the Valley once it is freed from Hindu India and you colonialists leave.

      2. @Kabir
        You have a comprehension problem. The Kashmiri Kingdom existed during medieval times. A piece of land is owned by no one. The Kashmir Kingdom is long dead, and you yourself stated it; I can understand your cognitive dissonance. You are a Pakistani Kashmiri; work on making your land free from Pakistani boots. After all, you as a Pakistani citizen can only secede from your country, not India. On this note, India also existed during Mauryan times, so your claim again has no value.

        Kashmir was a province — not a sovereign state — that EIC sold off is a fact. All sovereignty is lost once conquered. Don’t make foolish claims; you are the first person I have seen that takes offense to this fact. Nehru is dead and his government is long gone. His conditional promise was based on Pakistan withdrawing from Kashmir. Become independent from the boots of Pakistan, then you can negotiate with India.

        1. I don’t have a “comprehension problem”. You have a problem understanding logic.

          I already told you that AZAD Kashmir is technically independent from Pakistan. It has its own PM, President and national anthem “Watan hamara Azad Kashmir”. Pakistan is constitutionally only the four provinces.

          “India existed during Mauryan times”– NO. The Mauryan Empire is not the nation-state of India. India is a socially constructed entity that only dates from 1947. This is getting repetitive but apparently you’re too stupid to understand this.

          UN Resolutions don’t expire. Hold the damn plebsicite. Hindu India has no business in Muslim Kashmir.

          1. “UN Resolutions remain valid to this day”
            No it isn’t, the Shimla Agreement (1972) made it null and void. And even if it were still valid wasn’t one of the prerequisites for the plebiscite the withdrawal of ‘your’ country’s nationals that had occupied parts of the former princely state. The withdrawl didn’t happen , so why should we hold the plebiscite. You guys didn’t do what the resolution asked you to do (the first step of the three step process) then why should we

          2. The UN resolutions are still valid. This is not my opinion. This is International Law. Kashmir remains a subject of dispute at the UN.

            As for the Simla Agreement, it also says that neither side will take any unilateral steps to change the status quo. You all have abrogated Article 370 and divided the former state into “Union Territories”. That’s a unilateral step.

            The case can be made that India has violated Simla and therefore it is entirely fair for Pakistan to take military action in Kashmir.

            Don’t try your Hindutvadi logic on me.

        2. @Kabir
          When did I ever say India is not a recent entity? The example of the Mauryan empire was only to buttress my point. Furthermore, the new map of Pakistan contradicts your claim.

          If you believe you are sovereign, ask UNSC to implement the resolution. After all, it is the mediator, not India. You have to convince them, not Indians.

          1. Do you understand the difference between a NATION-STATE and an EMPIRE? It doesn’t seem you do.

            There is nothing new about the political map of Pakistan. It continues to show India-Occupied Kashmir as DISPUTED TERRITORY (in fact it is clearly written there). AZAD Kashmir is not constitutionally part of Pakistan (neither is G-B) and we have made no changes to the status of either–unlike you all who have removed Article 370 and are ready to settle Hindu Indians into the Valley.

          2. As Kabirs comment doesn’t have a reply option yet, I am replying to him here

            “Don’t try your Hindutvadi logic on me.”
            If I am a Hindutvavadi then you are an islamist

            “The UN resolutions are still valid. This is not my opinion”
            You conveniently ignored my second point so I will be copy pasting it here-
            even if it is still valid wasn’t one of the prerequisites for the plebiscite the withdrawal of ‘your’ country’s nationals that had occupied parts of the former princely state. The withdrawl didn’t happen , so why should we hold the plebiscite. You guys didn’t do what the resolution asked you to do (the first step of the three step process) then why should we?

            “The case can be made that India has violated Simla and therefore it is entirely fair for Pakistan to take military action in Kashmir”
            lol, it’s funny that you’d say this cause ‘your’ country had already done such a thing (attack India in the former state of Jammu and Kashmir) before it was, according to you, ‘entirely fair’ to do so. Remember the Kargil War. Your country broke a whole lot of stuff stated in the agreement and, worse than that, did so when the relations between our countries were probably a lot better than they usually have been. How do you feel about your country giving the revocation of 370 more legitimacy than it would’ve had otherwise.

          3. After the abrogation of 370 and the new plans to settle Hindu Indians in the Muslim Valley, you have no moral credibility to talk about Occupied Kashmir. There was a fake encounter in Shopian a few weeks ago where your Occupying Army murdered three beautiful Kashmiri Muslim young men. Your nation is sick.

            I’m not interested in any more statist and colonialist arguments from Indian nationalists. If you’re not ethnically Kashmiri, buzz off.

        3. @Kabir
          Ask the mediator UNSC for the dispute resolution. They are the ones who you need to convince, not me or India. As for me, Pakistan and you can claim whatever that suits your fancies.

  41. Looks like things are heating up in Bangalore-
    https://bangaloremirror.indiatimes.com/bangalore/crime/violence-breaks-out-in-pulakeshinagar-over-derogatory-post/articleshow/77491124.cms

    Some politician’s relative wrote something offensive about the prophet on FB. Many vehicles have been burnt by a violent mob. Apparently the police had to fire shots to try dispersing the mob. 1 person may have been killed as per some reports.

    Reminds me of some cases that I read about recently-

    Kamlesh Tiwari-
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamlesh_Tiwari
    A Muslim politician made homophobic remarks against RSS and so Kamlesh called Muhammad the first homosexual in the world. Got killed almost 4 years later

    Another ex-Muslim posted an FB post which read “No God, No God, No God”, he got killed by Muslims-
    https://www.deccanchronicle.com/nation/current-affairs/190317/coimbatore-man-murdered-for-atheism-bengaluru-blast-convict-suspected.html

    Another case from Bangalore where they used the mosque speakers to make an announcement in order to attack healthcare workers-
    https://www.timesnownews.com/mirror-now/in-focus/article/never-faced-such-difficulties-or-humiliation-asha-worker-abused-by-locals-during-covid-19-duty-in-bengaluru/572824

    Curious to see what colours the woke crowd is going to paint this riot with

    1. Amazing that radical Muslims are still able to kill right wing Hindu politicians. Being 15% of the population gives you lot of leverage. If BJP ever gets out of power, I expect there will severe retribution from Muslims.

    2. S Indian muslims are better educated, more prosperous and arguably very well integrated into the local societies. There also aren’t (as many) communal riots in S India.
      But most Indian recruits to ISIS, SIMI, etc are S Indian. And there was a TN connection to the recent Easter attacks in SL. A disturbing trend, wonder what the cause for this.

      Thinking about a show that was aired on Amazon recently (The Family Man) that had a Mallu Muslim antagonist who got radicalised after the Gujarat riots, are S Indians getting radicalised due to the actions of hardline hindutva in N India? Seems incredible but anything’s possible..

      1. Why incredible ? N-Indian Muslims are sufficiently cowed down in last 6 years. So Muslim angst can only be expressed where they still have agency and power, and Hindus quite docile.

        1. Hmm, sounds about right.

          The spread of Hindutva to the south (I think it’s inevitable, it’s only a question of when) will be v. interesting to observe, and it’ll make the attempts to conquer Bengal pale in comparison. The dynamics between regionalism, higher economic growth/HDI, and more assertive X-tians and M’s will be a fascinating one to observe in the coming decades.

          1. I would say that outside of Karnataka to some extent, the dynamics of “assertive X-tians and M’s” have made the South “Hindutva” proof. The critical mass needed wont be reached as that time has passed, and minorities have gained sufficient agency. And the politics of S-India wrt Hindu politics will mirror Kerala. Sabrimala is a good example.

            In a funny way, just like Muslims in the North choices have narrowed down 2 less “Hindu” party and least “Hindu” party, Hindus conservatives of the South will have to choose b/w more “Hindu” party and most “Hindu” party.

          2. “The critical mass needed wont be reached as that time has passed, and minorities have gained sufficient agency. ”

            True, but I see the aims of Hindu politics as quite different b/w the N and S. In the N it seems (to my eyes as an outsider) to be about ‘righting’ the wrongs of the past to some extent, consolidating H society by fighting Mandal politics and lastly to restore some swag to the H folks. In the S its quite different, I see it more about fighting for H control of temples and institutions, countering missionary activity and preservation of culture (eg – Sabarimala, Jallikattu). But some of the swag and attendant militant tendencies might wash in from the N as well, who knows.

      2. “S Indian muslims are better educated, more prosperous and arguably very well integrated into the local societies.”

        Education and prosperity may vary, but the integration part is far from reality. I think I already spoke about ISIS sympathizer and Zakir Naik fanboy on another thread. I’ve also seen another guy slyly trying to get a Hindu girl to convert to Islam (glorifying the quran in front of her and suggesting female Muslim names for her to choose).

        Their identities revolve around Islam but they also make sure to post anti-BJP stuff as ‘Tamizhans’ trying to save their language and culture (even seen Urdu-speaking Muslims do the same). I think it’s post like these that probably make people believe that they’ve integrated well and that their Tamil identity matters a lot to them, but that’s not really what’s happening.
        Although some Dravidian Muslims do indeed take their Tamil identity very seriously.

        I remember some south-Indian Muslim actor being attacked online for posting a picture with his pet dog. Don’t see how this is any different from Irfan Pathan’s wife being shamed for applying nail polish. Not a huge difference between urban and rural ones either (never been to the rural parts but met rural Muslims at college, Zakir Naik fanboy was one of them).

      3. “S Indian muslims are better educated, more prosperous and arguably very well integrated into the local societies.”

        – Better educated: probably

        – More prosperous: not sure.
        On average south is more prosperous that north but is that so in relative terms between Hindus and Muslims as well?
        I do think there are relatively more rich/upper middle class Muslims in the north thanks to Ashrafs/Bohras. North Indian Muslims might be economically a more unequal group.

        – Very well integrated: unlikely
        People seem to get swayed by Muslims in Kerala participating in boat races and all.
        But I have also noticed burqas and other conservative symbols much more prevalent in the south than the north. Is that a sign of integration?
        I also think that north Indian culture is generally more Islamicate. So Muslims feel more at home. There’s a reason a Muslim in Coorg speaks fluent Urdu/Hindi.

        (An exception can be made for Arab-influenced north Kerala, which might be the most Islamic region in the country outside Kashmir)

  42. Kamala Harris is Biden’s running mate gaiizz!! Indians/South Asians/brownz/tam brahms represent!! Next VP of USA will bring curd rice and mango pickle to White House

      1. This times a million. Tulsi is smarter, more Hindu (thus closer to us), and better looking. Kamala is an ugly person inside and out and doesn’t deserve our support.

  43. Is Kamala Harris a Hindu? She appears to be a typical nonreligious liberal but not sure what her actual beliefs are.

    1. She is a hypocrite who has tried to hide her roots. Although she was brought up by her single Indian mother.

      1. She didn’t try to hide her roots asshole. She wrote a freaking book in which she talked about being raised by a Tamil mother and visiting her grandparents in Chennai, among other references.

        1. Alright may be my comment was unwarranted. She did not embrace her culture enthusiastically. More of feigned ignorance. I take back my statement that she is disavowed her roots and is hypocrite.

        2. Let me explain why I called her a hypocrite:
          For Kamala her feigned African American heritage was always more important than her Indian heritage. Plainly because that made her woke and pulled votes and donors.

          Although she was brought up by her single mother (not sure what influence if any her father had), she has tried to identify herself as a person with “African American” roots and not Indian roots.

          1. I wont be too hard on her for that. There were probably more African Americans around when she was growing up. There definitely weren’t that many Indian kids in 60s and 70s. Identity forms pretty early on and 10 year old Kamala Harris couldn’t have foreseen the rise of the woke movement and thus strategically embraced African American culture.

          2. @Harry

            Whatever the reasons, if she doesn’t identify as Indian, then that’s that.

            Obama, half White, raised by Whites, still Black, right? Don’t see too many Europeans taking great pride in one of their kin rising to power in Obama.

          3. I mean every other US president was fully European descent.

            So why would they take pride in Obama being half ?

            (Btw Kamala also has obvious European ancestry on her Jamaican side, but its irrelevant due to hypo-descent.)

        3. She almost always identifies exclusively as Black.

          She uses these identities for convenience to suit her hunger for power.

          It’s embarrassing to see Indians take pride in someone like this.

  44. Indians earning good name for our people in the US.

    https://www.inquirer.com/news/robocall-scams-arrests-india-kolkata-international-institute-hotel-management-maaz-shamsi-zeeshan-khan-20200811.html

    But while most scrape by on financial aid, work-study jobs, and student loans, Shamsi, 23, and Khan, 22, routinely had thousands of dollars passing through their bank accounts — all now alleged to be proceeds from a global robocall scam industry that swindles more than $150 million from Americans each year.

    The men allegedly moved more than $618,000 swindled from 19 U.S. victims between January and May alone.

    ‘Karein whoh kaam aisa jagg mein apna naam ho jaaye!’

  45. in america she’s viewed as black due to hypodescent so idk why ppl so butthurt. those are the rules. indians kind of racist against black people too, though her dad is clearly very mixed race (he’s lighter than her iyer mother). also, being black baptist is more sellable as a politician

  46. advik, if i wake up and you are in full-troll dungeon again overnight, i’m banning you again. your trolling is less offensive to me than just totally tiresome

  47. Russia the first in the world created and registered vaccine against covid 19, but their readiness to cooperate with the international community, was refused to be published by all leading Western media.

    It is widely known that Russia has been one of the world leaders in vaccine research for centuries. Russian Empress Catherine the Great gave an example from 1768, when she received the first smallpox vaccine in the country, 30 years before the first vaccination was given in the United States.

    The Covid19 vaccine already received one of Putin’s daughters, the director and all employees of the Institute which created this vaccine.

  48. I wonder what will it take for the BP overlords to arrange a Browncast with Kabir, considering he has been commenting here since atleast 3 years, and the Browncast will soon be completing 2 years. What do u think Razib, let’s have it, long overdue i’ll say

  49. bangalore riots:
    muslim mob went bersek and attacked the local mla’s house and police station and other properties. the mla is a dalit and the constituency is reserved for sc. so much for dalit muslim cooperation.
    the disturbing thing is that, the main stream muslim politicians have lost the trust of the younger population, either due to frustration, or under influence of radical elements. this will be dangerous.

      1. The crowd was at the MLA’s house and the police station. And the damage had already been done, they burnt like 2 dozen vehicles and damaged the police station too.

        And apparently the feud began with some Muslim insulting Krishna (because Krishna Janmashtami), and so the MLA’s nephew posted a “pedophile Muhammad” reply with quotes from the quran and hadiths. Big deal, if true. Because then they not only did the damage, but were also the first to throw insults.

        There’s another post by a Muslim doing the rounds on Twitter, and people are demanding that he too be arrested (kinda NSFW I guess)-
        https://twitter.com/Shruthi_Thumbri/status/1293363630361075712

  50. Skyroot India’s first private company to test upper-stage rocket engine

    https://m.economictimes.com/small-biz/startups/newsbuzz/skyroot-indias-first-private-company-to-test-upper-stage-rocket-engine/amp_articleshow/77496420.cms

    The 3-D printed rocket engine – Raman, named after Nobel laureate CV Raman – has fewer moving parts and weighs less than half of conventional rocket engines with a similar capacity.
    The Hyderabad-headquartered firm, backed by Curefit founders Mukesh Bansal and Ankit Nagori, and Solar Industries, claimed that the engine was capable of multiple restarts, enabling the launch vehicle to insert various satellites into multiple orbits in a single mission. It will conduct more tests of the Raman engine over the next six months.

    Founded by Pawan Kumar Chandana and Naga Bharath Daka, both former scientists at the Indian Space Research Organisation (Isro)………..The first rocket, which can hurl satellites of 250-700 kgs into a lower earth orbit, is expected to be launched by end-2021.

    Skyroot had so far raised 31.5 crore from investors to develop a family of rockets named after Vikram Sarabhai, the founder of India’s space programme, with the capability to launch 250-700 kg satellites into low-earth orbit. The space startup is now in talks to raise 90 crore by mid-2021.

    Skyroot, Agnikul and Bellatrix are building small launchers, with 3-D printed engines, hoping to bring down the cost of launching satellites and capturing a bigger pie of the global small satellite launch market.
    Research firm Frost & Sullivan expects more than 10,000 small satellites to be launched globally in the next decade.

    1. I really wish they will make it all the way but anyways it is a brave effort to do hardware in India, INR 31.5 crores is not enough money to do these kinds of things.

      Also what is this obsession with 3D printing people have? Laser Metal Sintering has been around for like forever. 3D printing has no ‘real’ advantages other than at prototyping stages. Smart designers avoid designing complicated non-machienable/non-formable/non-castable/non-injection-mouldable shapes. Lazy designers let their imagination run wild.

      1. “I really wish they will make it all the way but anyways it is a brave effort to do hardware in India, INR 31.5 crores is not enough money to do these kinds of things.”

        They don’t necessarily need to do everything end-to-end, as long as they specialize in certain components out of the hundreds or thousands required, they should be good. The space industry makes many ancillary firms do the groundwork and if India has enough of these small firms it’s possible to create an MSME ecosystem like the mittelstand in Germany.

        1. Yes but aren’t space people a paranoid (rightfully about IP) bunch? so unless Arabs start making their rockets it is difficult to see who will buy these things. Skepticism aside it is amazing that our people are dreaming so big, something good will come out of this Samudra-Manthan (churn). These Madrasis (the founders) fill me up with so much pride.

  51. I think people here might hate this and possibly people in India will be confused because it is outside their reality at the moment.

    But I have come to believe that Hindus need to absorb and syncretize the best aspects of the Western Woke religion not fight it…

    This is one example of how its done:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0LShocxEg4

    I get that this is in California. But the wave of wokeness will arrive on the shores of India, and as someone has pointed out has the beginning stages have already arrived in English speaking elite circles in India.

    I think Hinduism, with all of its diversity, is actually very well positioned to integrate the Woke harmoniously if they take this trend seriously and prepare for the future. (assuming Hindu modernism / hindutva can resolve the caste stuff)

    But risk getting swept under if they are caught off guard, if they are too caught up in modernist excess, when the wave hits.

  52. What’s the history of settlment in Assam? Its part of the Indo-Gagentic plains but who was there first?AASI, Indo-Aryans, Sino-Tibetans, Austro-Asiatics?

  53. AASI are distantly related to hoabinhian so probably them. munda mixed with aasi before anything west eurasia, so austro-asiatic probably second though a different branch from munda, and finally the indo-aryans, then the sino-tibetans. but some of this is not for sure…really early tibetan like ancestry ppl can be found in burma

  54. ok, i banned advik again. he can’t shake the 4chan chatter-style and it’s grating on me. at least kabir’s ranting seems just insane, not conscious trolling

      1. “Go ahead and ban me. You’re always threatening to so why not just do it?”

        This reminds me of The Dark Knight.

        Joker wants Batman to kill him to relieve him of his misery.

        But Batman won’t do that.

  55. “Green Veggies and Summit – good points. It seems that we have reached the common ground”

    >>>>The previous was my comment in the ‘Indian woke wear saffron’ thread which was censored by Slapsie. In his previous thread he also stopped my comment. Since I, in a half-joke, discovered that Slapsie was a cryptoOIM and that he finally publicly got out, he stopped publishing any my comment, even those like above, in his threads. I would not comment on such infantile behaviour but those who take care of BP reputation should think about this.

    %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

    Just to use this opportunity to comment on Razib’s post in the same thread – there were no (unusual) so-called Slavic (probably Serbian because this term still did not exist then) migration to Balkan. That is the key falsification of the world history which created a domino effect of other falsifications. Where ‘Slavics’ came from, where they originated? There is no ONE evidence of Slavic (i.e. Serbian) migration to Balkan. They were indigenous people of Balkan and Europe since before Ice Age. Italy, Nederland and Spain already removed this nonsense from their histories.

    “Latin peasants” did not exist (if yes, who they were, what was their genetics). What has happened with them? Latin language was never been spoken in Balkan except in Empire’s administration. Or much simpler – what was the genetic of Illyrians, Thracians, Moesians, Tribally, Dacians, etc.

    For example – Serbs and Romanians have the same genetics. Romanians are indigenous in Balkan and Serbs allegedly came from some unknown destination. How come? Is it possible that the same gen originated independently in two very distant places? In this case it is possible that Aryans in India and Serbs (based only on genetic evidence) have no any connection.

    1. Thanks for publishinng my above comment…

      “the aryan language is closest to Iranian …and seems closer to slavic and baltic than other indo-european groups.…”

      >>>> the aryan language is closest to aryan?

      ‘Slavic’ and ‘Baltic’ groups did not exist 4000 years ago – it was only Serbian. Which other potential ‘indo-european groups’ existed in 2000BC?

      1. Green Veggies: “I don’t believe that linguists have even identified any particular culture as one that corresponds to PIE”

        >>> This is a hole in the research, some findings exist but they are are hidden. It seems, it is prohibited to publish any European language map at about 2000BC, before Yamnaya or even earlier. We don’t know which language was spoken in Europe for 7000 years before Yamnaya (twice then a period btw Yamnaya and today; amazing). Where the Sanskrit came from? However, some old research results exist.

        RK: “no single piece of evidence/discipline can sort these things needs to be multidisciplinary. the best candidate for the origns of aryans is sintashtha and the andronovo horizon.”

        >>>> Vincha!!! Everything else came later.

        Mohan: “The idea of brahmins as people who are ascetic is a strong one in hindu history and culture. This is perhaps some circumstantial evidence.”
        “I don’t think Indo-Aryan’s called their tribal shamans “brahmins” however. This is all conjecture but hey what the hell…”

        >>>> Agree, my sources say that brahmins were pre-Aryans local people and they integrated with newly arrived elite. They probably used their transferable skills to accept new paradigm, probably similar to the transition from paganism to Christianity.

        GV: “This would raise the obvious question that when Aryans so categorically defeated the natives in a war, why would they permit them entry into the Brahmin or Kshatriya caste. And even if they eventually did, that attitude of acceptance must take a while to develop, at least a few decades if not centuries. Hence, if not all, some Vedic literature should have described this.”

        >>> good points and logic – migration not invasion

      2. Numinous: “To people like Green Veggies: do yourself (and us) a favor and read through the BP archives… The AIT vs AMT vs OIT issue has been beaten to death on this forum over the past few years. You are neither saying nor asking anything original.”

        >>> Actually, I disagree. My observation is that GV is a fresh thinking. He clearly stated that Aryans existed, very logically asserted ‘migration’ and even presented logical thinking about the beginnings of the Buddhism. And he is very tolerant for different opinions, this is not very common here. After GV’s and Mohan’s assertions we can push the envelope in regard to ‘Aryan’ issue and discuss the next topic (e.g. mythology).

        1. RK: “two things you should be cautious about on this weblog
          – talking to Milan about serbs”

          >>>>> I write about Euro/Serbian historical links with SA and about respective falsifications in the world history. So far, I provided hundreds of unknown or less known facts here. The key thing is that Aryans were ancient Serbs (here usually called E.Europeans or Slavics). I think that this is finally established here and I challenge anyone to assert that this is not true. I am more focussed on Euro history and this is a side issue of my attention. BP often write about so-called ancient Greece and Rome and I am uncovering enormous amount of falsifications in this period, too.

          Some contemporary things have their ancient roots. Today’s reflections are for e.g. constant campaigns of Satanisation of Serbs and atavistic hatred which sometimes finishes by bombing them (4 times in last century). Current anti-Russian hysteria in US is also one of these reflections. Another example is the hiding of facts about the oldest in the world, Vincha civilisation, the birthplace of so-called ‘Indo-Europeans’ and white race.

          My writing sometimes irritates the coalition of jihadi-taqiyyamen and oit-earthflaters because they cannot ‘handle the truth’ (Big Jack N). However, if I am told that my writing is distracting on the blog, I will act accordingly.

          PS. If Emperor Khanishka intends to use expressions of ‘latin peasants’ in Balkan or ‘slavic (i.e. serbs) migration’ he should provide at least ONE evidence that these things existed (before, I offered a financial reward if someone can find any). It is known when and where Latin language originated and where was spoken. Another (reward) question – which language was spoken in Rome before Latin?

          Cheers to all Benetton Pundits!

          1. Saurav: “Razib, have u got ur DNA thing done? i advice u should ?
            U might be a serb, and u may not even know it.”

            >>>>>> Serbian R1a is 12000 years old, Euro R1a is less than 7000 years old, Russian is 4500, SA is 3850. It is not needed to be an expert to make a conclusion. Razib is also one of R1a ‘downstream’ derivatives. And he knows this. Who does not want to be in the same league with Nikola Tesla? However, maybe it is possible (Razib should confirm) that the identical R1a also independently originated in a very different and distant place?

    1. Ahmed Shariff is a good guy, equal opportunity offender on both the religions. Sometimes I’m still surprised how do they let him do his standup shows with out the minorities getting their whities in a knot, or for that matter the majority ones too.

      1. “Sometimes I’m still surprised how do they let him do his standup shows with out the minorities getting their whities in a knot, or for that matter the majority ones too.”

        He’s gone through a lot of shit. I was a part of the comedy clique in Bangalore for a bit.

        One SJW comic accused him of being fascist or something and then he was banned from a number of venues.

        1. FoE will only apply if you are part of a clique, a neutral guy like Ahmed is actually on his own. The man is good, I like him.

          1. Ahmed Shariff is talented and fair. He is not reflexively and overtly anti-Hindutva but to be fair as a Muslim he has less leeway to be so than someone with an ostensibly Hindu background.

  56. Who is crazy?….

    In Great Britain, in 40 days – from June 19 to July 31 – twice as many people died from the common flu than from the terrible corona virus!

    Specifically: 6,626 people died from flu and pneumonia that are not related to COVID-19, and 2,992 patients died from diseases caused by coronavirus infection!

  57. https://theprint.in/opinion/qureshis-saudi-criticism-on-kashmir-hints-shift-in-pakistans-strategy-for-the-islamic-world/480965/

    Qureshi’s Saudi criticism on Kashmir hints shift in Pakistan’s strategy for the Islamic world

    “There are reports that efforts were being made on the back channel to ensure that damage was controlled. Later, a meeting took place between the real ruler of Pakistan, Army Chief Gen Qamar Javed Bajwa and the Saudi Ambassador, and it has been revealed that Bajwa might be visiting Riyadh to smoothen ruffled feathers. While he is in Riyadh, it is expected that Bajwa will most likely push the envelope on not just seeking Saudi support in OIC on Kashmir but also a restoration of the $3.2 billion Saudi deferred oil facility which hasn’t been renewed, and appeal the Saudis to not demand the $3 billion they had loaned Pakistan for Balance of Payments support. The Saudis asking the Pakistanis to pay back what they have borrowed is a big deal because until now it has mostly been a free ride for the Pakistanis – the loans they take are never repaid to the Saudis. If now the Saudis are asking their money back, it isn’t because of the Saudi economic crisis but because of some serious strains in the bilateral relationship.

    For some time now, there have been stirrings to build an alternative Islamic bloc which isn’t tied to or tied down by the Arabs. Among the countries that appear keen on this new bloc are Iran, Turkey and Malaysia. Both Iran and Turkey have very strained relations with the Saudis, partly for historical, sectarian, cultural and ethnic reasons, and partly for geo-political reasons. In the Islamic world, the Arabs are the top dogs, the Persians and Turkic people form the second and third rung. Countries like Pakistan and Malaysia are the bureaucratic equivalent of Class IV employees of the Ummah (or in Pakistan’s bureaucratic parlance, the below Grade 10 employees).”

    1. We apologized to Saudi Arabia. As my leader Shahbaz Sharif (Uncle of the beautiful Kashmiri-Punjabi Maryam Nawaz) said: We never question the custodians of the two holy mosques. That is not done.

        1. Questioning the boss’s decisions doesn’t usually end well. As you saw when Saudi immediately imposed monetary consequences after the PTI government’s misstep.

    2. @Saurav
      MBS+Qureshi is a match made in heaven.

      btw why get to the 6 billion number? Even giving 2 or 3 or 4 billions would have been a big favor. Were they trying to beat Qatar’s number?

      Also, I don’t think other than the Nuclear bomb and terrorist-training related khairat (charity) Pakistan gets any free money. No one just hands over billions for free. And why does Pakistan not fix it’s foreign reserves issue? Can’t be that hard.

      Saudi bluff is being called by other countries. They are a power on the retreat, in the end my money is on Iran, they are smarter. As for Pakistanis, they will always find another client for the night.

      Also, does Qureshi chew masala when he speaks? sounds like such a weirdo with that accent even in Urdu.

      1. And the anti-Pakistan troll arrived right on time!

        There’s a special place in hell for people like you. Bloody Hindutvadi.

      2. Bhim

        I actually miss a Qureshi like figure in Indian politics . He seems like a urdu version of Shashi Tharoor. Quereshi theatrics could only be matched by the late Sushma Swaraj. Both have the art of speaking for hours with words which have no meaning.

        BTW the article also has a hierarchy of Muslim world. I have one for the Hindu world, but i suppose i should keep it to myself 😛

        1. That is an insult to Tharoor, Qureshi is a spineless opportunist (PML-N>>PPP>>PTI) of the most ordinary variety.

          Although not in the same league as Qureshi, few that I can think of who can waste time with meaningless talk like him are Javadekar, Prasad and Irani. On the opposition I can think of future cabinet minister Mahua Moitra(not necessarily for tact).

          There are a lot of state level people of the ‘Sushma Swaraj school of time wasting’ like our very own deputy CM Dinesh Sharma.

          1. Why are you guys ignoring my man Sambit Patra?

            I am hard pressed to find a more talented bullshitter than him and he can do that very chastely in three different languages.

            IIRC he even sang some Telugu songs during last election campaigning since his constituency had a lot of Telugu folks.

            He’s also a surgeon.

            Multi-talented.

          2. Didn’t you know in addition to being politician, surgeon, TV debater, ONGC director…. Sambit Patra has being living a second life as David Gilmour. His cover was blown after Saurav realized Sambit’s debates sounded just like Pink Floyd when high on weed.

  58. The term Hindutva was popularized(/coined) by Veer Savarkar in 1923. It came about as a reaction to Molpa riots and promotion of Khilafata movement in India by M. K. Gandhi.

    The immediate trigger was Molpa riots in which numerous Hindus.

    Dr Ambedkar was appalled by M. K. Gandhi making light of Molpa rights and his active support for the Khilafat movement. His assessment of M. K. Gandhi’s role in this can be summed up by the following quote:

    “Can any sane man go so far, for the sake of H-M unity? But, Mr. Gandhi was so attached to H-M unity that he did not stop to enquire what he was really doing in this mad endeavour. ”
    Ref: http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00ambedkar/ambedkar_partition/307b.html#part_3

    As one can see there was active opposition by B. R. Ambedkar, Veer Savarkar to these woke ideas of superficial unity. I would posit that such ideas were very weak and only stood a slim chance because of the British rule. These ideas crumbled under their own weight after independence.

    PS: had posted this comment on other post, it did not make it there. Hence posting it here in the hope that it gets published.

  59. uae and Israel are normalising relations. interesting. it was said that israel already has business interests in uae.

    1. The UAE normalized relations with Israel supposedly on the understanding that Israel would “suspend” annexation of the West Bank. But Netanyahu has already said that annexation is only off the table “for now”.

      The trending Twitter hashtag in Pakistan is #UAEStabsMuslims

  60. @Onur Dincer
    Please correct me if I am wrong but shouldn’t turkey be with India. Jinnah was opposed to Khilafat movement, it was (at that time) pro-congress Muslims and Gandhi himself who supported Khilafat movement.

    Also can you talk about gross mischief turkey is doing with Greece in the open thread, I have no skin in the game (other than of-course if Turkey continues to needle India) but I think Turkey will get humiliated very badly by Greeks+French. Has Erdogan lost his mind picking on all the Arabs, Russians, Greeks (maybe even count in Chinese, Indians, Americans) at the same time? This is recipe for obliteration, again, I have no ill-will towards Turkey I am just a curious bystander. Please respond in the open thread.

    1. @Bhimrao

      The Turkish general public knows nothing about the attitudes of Gandhi and Jinnah towards the Khilafat Movement, most are not aware of the KM either, what is mostly known is basically the material support of the Muslims of British India to the Turkish National Movement during its war. Turkey’s Indian policy is still mild and friendly compared to its Israeli and Myanmarese policies, after all, India is a much bigger and important country and economy. We can say the same about Turkey’s US, Russian, Chinese, general Arab and general EU (broadly speaking, without focusing on the individual countries) policies, they are relatively mild.

      Turkey’s current Greek policy is hard to make sense of for most observers. There is a theory that by harassing Greece Turkey is aiming to drive a wedge between Greece and the EU. The EU, and especially its boss Germany, has already managed its Greek policy very badly since the beginning of the Greek economic crisis and the things have only changed for the worse since the Covid-19 outbreak. Only France has stood firm on its support to Greece from the EU side during the last years. So Turkey might be exploiting this situation by fanning the flame. Of course, this is just one of the theories that try to explain the current Greek policy of Turkey. What Turkey would expect from Grexit is easier to explain I think, a Greece with no EU support would be an easier target for Turkey in its Neo-Ottomanist schemes. But of course these are all speculations, we do not know what the Turkish foreign policy makers and executives have in mind, but I can assure you that they are no stupid, even when they act brutish they have dozens of schemes in mind, after all, Turkey is inheritor of the Byzantine and Ottoman imperial legacies.

      1. Erdogan’s foreign policy is rather frenetic. He has the army fighting in northern Syria against the Kurds there and the Assad government. He has troops in Libya aiding the government there against Haftar and his Egyptian and Gulf allies. He sided with Qatar against the Saudis, Egypt and UAE. He seems intent on fighting it our with Greece and Cyprus for oil and gas in the Eastern Med. “Anti-terror” operations are also taking place in southeast Turkey against Kurds. All this while the Turkish economy is not doing well at all.

        1. Erdogan is saying some dangerous things about not respecting United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea. He is boiling the frog, lets see if Greeks have the balls to respond.

          “That an island, whose total area is 10 square kilometers, would be entitled to 40,000 square kilometers of maritime jurisdiction is both laughable and baseless under international law.”

          https://twitter.com/RTErdogan/status/1293967955852754945

          Not taking any sides, I am really excited about seeing some naval action. Greek and Turkish pilots routinely harass each other but naval mock ship firings, ramming, forced internment of vessels, threatening submarine displays etc would be cool to see. Everyone (other than the world anti-nuke policemen Americans and Russians) takes out popcorn when Indian people (of Republic of India and Islamic Republic of Pakistan) duke it out. It is our turn to run TV interviews (like TRT, Jal-Jeera…) of ‘stakeholders’, pass pointless foreign ministry comments and act all self important.

          French are clever bastards, they are the last active 19th century type colonial power. They must have anticipated all this when they sold those big helicopter carriers(originally meant for Russia) and other warships to the then embarrassing rust bucket navy of Egypt, turning it into a super-power at sea. OTOH I think Sisi would loose badly in Libya and situation is under Turkish control in Kurdistan(all of it).

          1. “ Indian people (of Republic of India and Islamic Republic of Pakistan) duke it out”

            BRITISH Indian ?

          2. Don’t you dare call us Pakistanis “Indian”. We are not citizens of your socially constructed nation-state that has only existed as long as our nation-state has existed.

            If we wanted to be called “Indian”, we wouldn’t have created a sovereign Muslim-majority country.

            Calling Pakistanis “Indian” is simply de-legitimizing Pakistan.

        2. @Ali

          You have well summarized the situation. But in all these conflicts one pattern in clear: Erdogan is trying to do his best in his Neo-Ottomanist schemes in a way without really confronting any heavyweight state. States like France and Egypt are the biggest ones he has seriously confronted (except the brief conflict with Russia during the aircraft shootdown crisis), and he has got into military conflict with only a weak state like Syria (and only when it did not have enough Russian support) or targets with insufficient international backing like the various Kurdish groups and Haftar and got into a quasi-military conflict (more like a cold war) with weak but still EU Greece. He clearly knows his limits and plays the game according to the rules. So far he has shown that he knows where to stop more than Enver Pasha. As for his Saudi policy, it is only natural for Erdogan to get into conflict with Saudi Arabia since both Erdogan and Saudi Arabia have imperialist schemes on the Muslim world but they represent opposite camps of Sunni Islam, Erdogan represents the traditional Sunni Islam while Saudi Arabia represents the Wahhabi and Salafi versions of Sunni Islam.

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