394 thoughts on “Open Thread, 1/6/2022, Brown Pundits”
So question – particulary for Razib. Has anyone done any breakdown on West Siberian Hunter Gatherer, and its proportion in IVC populations and modern Indian cline populations?
It seems particularly interesting in the context of steppe proportions, and their shared ANE origins.
not rigorously to my knowledge
@razib, would you be amenable to doing one? I wonder if the MLBA Steppe people imposed themselves on an order dominated by WSHG ancestry
Ami is a good source to represent the SE Asian ancestry within Bengalis. I was using Kinh and then tried Ami on someone’s suggestion and it improved the fits. Very neat.
Any thoughts on Julian Jaynes – the Origin of consciousness in the breakdown of the bicameral mind?
west world series was built on that. Consciousness as recent works seem to suggest is a form of anticipation, hallucination according to anil seth. I would begin there, IIT theory is also interesting, though its foundational basis is a kind of monism, make of it what you will.
The theory might have some merits but is false, because consciousness exists to some measure in animals themselves much before humans, i dont see any basis of that kind of theory.
i admire the ambition, probably wrong.
i think we just need to work on gathering more evidence about consciousness (our current most advanced tech in this regard is general anestheisa) before speculating.
peter zeihan is scary. And yes, natural resources are important. world trade matters.
now that foreign universities will open campuses in india, will the humanities studies be hijacked by witzel, pollock types?
already is. Look at JNU. Look at the big journalists for Western media outlets. Indian Leftists are even bigger charlatans than Western ones. If anything, maybe there will be a tiny bit of improvement with less entrenched people coming in. They will still talk badly, but they won’t have as much basis motivated reasoning.
Lifetime vegetarian monster British Punjabi Indian Sikh lifter. Possibly natty too looking at the feds. Respect
Everything is so expensive in Canada bruh I wish my parents immigrated to Florida or something instead much warmer there too
Its gonna get even more expensive as well given Trudeau is bringing in like a million immigrants every year. Literally half the kids from my native village in India are “studying” in Canada.
It used to be quite prestigious to live in Canada but nowadays pretty anyone from South Asia can go there. Same thing with the UK. My cousins in India say migrating to these countries is just like moving to Delhi or Bangalore nowadays. And now my extended family in Canada and UK are trying to move to the US lol. Don’t know the situation wrt to Australia and New Zealand. The byzantine US immigration policy makes it hard for South Asians to mass migrate here like CAN and UK. Having other sizeable ethnic/racial minorities makes it hard too. IIRC it was the Black and Hispanic caucus within the Democratic Party that blocked the recent attempt at H1b liberalization.
Half a million immigrants a year is basically an opportunity to make shit ton of money in Canada. People always find reason to complain and some of it relating to cultural change is valid. But economically it’s just a huge opportunity to get rich served on a platter.
Getting quite cold in Rangpur and in Bangladesh as a whole. Streets don’t seem to have a lot of the cycle”vans” that I saw years back when I visited. More paved and proper sidewalks, decent bits of organization but blaring horns are still there haha https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZASg5-Z7sA
Over time I have become numb to any award, academic appointment, ‘civil society recognition’, weekly-columnist type BS. None of them matter anymore. It is about writing nice essays, having friends who can nominate you…
Same thing with American news media. NYT-WaPo-… its all a circle jerk.
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Sagarika Ghosh has gone nuts about ‘#Mishraji’, spewing all sorts of nonsense about UP-Bihar.
She was a Rhodes Scholar , but I don’t think it is that hard to get Rhodes, + connected Delhi circle of native informants + brown woman card + activism, journalism card,…
Everything about her and her Congressi husband’s subsequent career is mediocre.
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I find this attitude in a lot of Bengalis and increasingly Tamils online. This is all very educational for us North Indians. These guys genuinely think our people are uncouth and unclean. Tag team with Khalistanis to joke about ‘Bhaiyyas shitting in the open’. Hilarious!
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Hindi/Cow-heartland should wake up and take up this challenge of inter state competition. Rest of the Indians are not like us.
Beating W. Bengal should be immediate goal.
Advantage UP: hardworking people, lack of organized pull of communism/socialism, pro-industrialization electorate.
Advantage W. Bengal: COAST, deeper roots of science education, health and hygiene, no entrenched caste politics, less freeloaders.
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I do sympathize with UC grievances about caste based quotas. I do not care about Bamans or Thakurs crying ‘oppression’. They are being discriminated against by the state, but by and large they are not oppressed.
The funny bit is North Indian OBCs are the vanguard of BJP but Bamans get the flak.
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she clearly is pro xtian if not one already. so is her husband. cryptos and half cryptos are the silent war that most dont notice. bjp instead of creating force multipliers through temples etc, still finds it useful to control it by govts. U just need to create a right critera . ultimately, rss/bjp and their stupidities will cost this H’s and this country the most, others are hopeless, sold out for greed.
[email protected]
sincere wishes from me to UP/BH.
up is benefitting from noida. but eastern UP/BH is still constant stream of bad news.
Latest one being caste census in BH. This coupled with Wire pitching quotas in private sector tells us a precursor of ’24 campaign and what is in store if there is a surprise upset. Will wreck IN’s economic chances for the next 50 years or so. NiKu has been a big disappointment. Could have steered the JDU remnants in to a responsible opposition but alas he also seems to have hitched his bandwagon to tukde-tukde gang.
To me one of the turnaround signals would be one of the WITCH companies opening up offices anywhere between Lucknow and Patna.
out of billion people and now over 70 yrs , bihari people have the perfect track record of choosing the most nikamma leaders consistently and this is unprecedented in India. And on twitter i see many chauvinist educated biharis keep shitting on modi, bjp, rss and keep giving excuses of freight equalization etc endlessly.
At this point, the reason for lack of progress in bihar i believe is due to chauvinist impluses and having less humility than anywhere else. All one needs to do is learn from others, none of bihari leaders or bureaucrats have been able to do that for over 70 yrs. If it was an independent country, our view of it would be pretty straight forward. I am compassionate, but i believe in accountability and numbers are now clear. This is a pattern and the reason for it is chauvinism.
A simple question, how many investment meets did nitish arrange with top businesses etc in all his period in power?.
Nitish won because Lalu-raj was 5X worse. At least people don’t get kidnapped now.
One way I explain it is: UP has Delhi to look up to. Bihar has nothing, Biharis want to become prosperous by being like Bengalis of old. Let me explain, Bengalis had an advantage in college education, for two centuries up till 80s-90s, a lot of Bengalis used to become government servants as food-inspectors, teachers, bankers, insurance-agents,… simply by walking into interview rooms as the only ones with a degree. When you talk to these old Bengalis they are pretty dull, dumb but conceited people, and who did they project their dumbness and vanity on? Bihar and Jharkhand.
Biharis and large number of UP people think that getting a government job is still the way to go.
None of this takes away the agency of Biharis and UP folks. We are responsible for this mess.
educated nativist chauvinists are the problem. World is bigger place to look upto , look at TN, they are chauvinists, but have humility towards world . One simple measure of this is, how many business meetings do they do, how many other countries do the leaders travel to?. Modi went outside India even as CM. How many countries did nitish go to strike deals?.
Indian ministers of congress/ nehru-gandhi vintage like mai baap ki sarkar, they like to rule the roost, want to be head of village and want all people to bow in front of them, including all scientists, businesspeople etc.
Nitish is of the same type. Want everyone to do ji huzuri. More chauvinists means less interaction across business/world and as a result, no development since there is no investment and no good ideas on how to develop.
Pavan varma types used to tell sob tales of how places like bihar need to be helped for being poor etc and I used to buy that. I now see him and people like him as shameless scum who for decades hid this jaundiced reality by bsing in fine english/hindi ganga jamuni tehzeeb.
Just checked google for pics of ratan tata and nitish kumar, zero pics. modi and ratan tata has many pics.
A cm, who has not taken lessons from the best Industrialist in the country. what arrogant pric.
UP-Bihar have to find ways to be useful without the coast.
“educated nativist chauvinists are the problem. World is bigger place to look upto , look at TN, they are chauvinists, but have humility towards world . One simple measure of this is, how many business meetings do they do, how many other countries do the leaders travel to?”
This should be one of the things to improve. The situation (law-order, health, education, in that order) and day to day politics (caste) is so tangled that people tend to lose the bigger picture.
Indians (in and around India) are a talkative people. Don’t take anything they say seriously.
Biharis grabbing the central government jobs is maybe the reason the Bengali ghose is upset 😊. UP/BH folks are following their Bengali brethren to western universities as well. I see lots of mishras, jhas and prasads spouting woke to climb up the greasy pole.
Re investor meets, I believe BH is the only one apart from NE. Ffs even Channi and Mann at least pretended to care about investment.
At the aggregate level politicians do respond to what their voters care about. This piece of the puzzle seems to be missing.
Was recently at a Tex-Mex restaurant in the DMV area, and was absolutely stunned to see the doppelgängers of South Asians from the East, West and North among non-White Latinos. Saw a huge family of Gujarati origin there, clearly speaking in their mother tongue, and were it not for their accent/language I would never have guessed them as South Asian. Looked fully like Indigenous and Mestizo Latinos and blended in with the non White Latino crowd. They were probably around 50% West Eurasian and 50% AASI or more. Which is a direct parallel to the average Mexican who is around 50-55% West Eurasian, 45-50% Asian and thus both look like the same race and ethnic group.
The servers there kept speaking to them in Spanish and acted hugely surprised when they responded in English. OTOH, the few Caucasians there (including Central South Asians like myself) were all spoken to in English and stood out like sore thumbs. The racial differences between South Asians are gigantic and the two ends of the South Asian PCA cline correspond to a difference almost as large as Nigerians and Coptic Christians from Egypt. The few endogamous tribes in South Asia and NW India that are fully Caucasian (Jaats, Kambojas, Khatris etc) will never be mistaken for non White/Latin and will always be considered a Caucasian of some origin.
There is a vast difference in phenotype once you reach the 10-15% AASI threshold as is found among Jaats and Rors and other NW South Asians. Not only do Northerners and Westerners with more AASI look Latin, the ones in the South and Central regions look conspicuously South Asian due to a completely different admixture strain of AASI and other unique elements not found in the North.
Truly incredible how there are so many parallels between South Asia and Latin America. Both in race, class and culture. The income disparities and corruption are also similar in both regions. Both regions have a history of being conquered by West Eurasians and still suffer from its ramifications today.
You are such a wildly unhinged individual hahahahahah “harnizo”
Man, Indians really do hate looking like Indians, the self-hate is spectacular. They will do anything and everything and say they look like this or that before admitting they look like what they are.
Take a bow, Racelearner. You really are one hell of a speciment
A foolish comment from an even more foolish South Asian (possibly Afghan, I know how much they like picking on their fellow South-Central Asian brethren)
Pray tell me, what exactly does an Indian look like? And then tell me what it means to say that “Indians hate looking Indian” — please expound upon this brilliant statement my friend, because I am at a loss to understand what you mean by that.
It’s like saying Americans hate looking American. Or Latin Americans hate looking Latin American. In other words it makes no sense whatsoever.
You sir, are a complete lunatic.
Donors offer over $9B for Pakistan after devastating floods
I think after haay-tauba on War on Terrorism, this is the new Pakistani shtic… these same people were trying to stand as ‘equals’ to the west and say no to… shame.
90% of those “donations” are in fact loans, admittedly on concessional terms. The days of genuinely free gibs are over for Pakistan.
Pakistan will find a way, this is their regular nautanki. As for no money:
Si-Paaikk, Pav bhar ka Nuclear bum, Labbaik-Labbaik ya rasu-gulla…
Are Sinhalese people closer genetically to Tamils or Bengalis ? (non-brahmins)
‘Are Sinhalese people closer genetically to Tamils’
This is how civil war are started, so careful where u going with this 😛
Quite a bit drunk, so some music.
I pretty much listen music only when drinking.||
Growing up as a third gen very westernized kid I loved (and still do) much of modern western music, like Rock. Not real western music as in Bach. But is modern music of the west, really of the west.
You hear of some saying Africa has no culture. But then the radio keeps blaring the beats of African music. Of course made popular by the Americans. No complaints here. a typical Stockholm Syndrome chap.
Chango is the Orisha, a deity in Yoruba religion
Of course most self centered people of each country think their history is most important. (I do too).
Why the CIA attempted a ‘Maidan uprising’ in Brazil
The failed coup in Brazil is the latest CIA stunt, just as the country is forging stronger ties with the east.
A former US intelligence official has confirmed that the shambolic Maidan remix staged in Brasilia on 8 January was a CIA operation, and linked it to the recent attempts at color revolution in Iran.
On Sunday, alleged supporters of former right-wing President Jair Bolsonaro stormed Brazil’s Congress, Supreme Court, and presidential palace, bypassing flimsy security barricades, climbing on roofs, smashing windows, destroying public property including precious paintings, while calling for a military coup as part of a regime change scheme targeting elected President Luis Inacio “Lula” da Silva.
According to the US source, the reason for staging the operation – which bears visible signs of hasty planning – now, is that Brazil is set to reassert itself in global geopolitics alongside fellow BRICS states Russia, India, and China.
A former US intelligence official has confirmed that the shambolic Maidan remix staged in Brasilia on 8 January was a CIA operation, and linked it to the recent attempts at color revolution in Iran.
On Sunday, alleged supporters of former right-wing President Jair Bolsonaro stormed Brazil’s Congress, Supreme Court, and presidential palace, bypassing flimsy security barricades, climbing on roofs, smashing windows, destroying public property including precious paintings, while calling for a military coup as part of a regime change scheme targeting elected President Luis Inacio “Lula” da Silva.
According to the US source, the reason for staging the operation – which bears visible signs of hasty planning – now, is that Brazil is set to reassert itself in global geopolitics alongside fellow BRICS states Russia, India, and China.
A former US intelligence official has confirmed that the shambolic Maidan remix staged in Brasilia on 8 January was a CIA operation, and linked it to the recent attempts at color revolution in Iran.
On Sunday, alleged supporters of former right-wing President Jair Bolsonaro stormed Brazil’s Congress, Supreme Court, and presidential palace, bypassing flimsy security barricades, climbing on roofs, smashing windows, destroying public property including precious paintings, while calling for a military coup as part of a regime change scheme targeting elected President Luis Inacio “Lula” da Silva.
According to the US source, the reason for staging the operation – which bears visible signs of hasty planning – now, is that Brazil is set to reassert itself in global geopolitics alongside fellow BRICS states Russia, India, and China.
is that Brazil is set to reassert itself in global geopolitics alongside fellow BRICS states Russia, India, and China.
Yes, within the last year or two regime change attempts to those leaning towards Russia and China.
The first was the 2014 Maidan revolution in Ukraine, a la “Fuck the EU” Victoria Nuland. That got the Clown (literally and figuratively) Zelensky installed.
Then just after Nulands visit to South Asia
a) Russia and China leaning Imran Khan got ousted.
b) In SL there were the Aragalaya Protests and storming of Parliament. The Rajapakses President and PM resigned. By a constitutional Parliament vote right of center Ranil Wickremasinghe became President. He did not even win his seat in 2020 Parliament elections.
There were other shenanigans, like rating agency down grades. Prevents or makes it very expensive to raise money in International Money Market. Then one has to beg from IMF and they will get their pound of flesh. Basically sell our assets to the west, also called privatization.
We did better, SL stopped paying its International Debts. 50% owed to Hedge Funds like Black Rock, IMF and ADB about 30%. 9% to China and they dont care as they have a strategic asset, the Hambanthota port.
So another own goal by the west, much like sanctions destroying EU and Germany in particular, economies.
Regards not being able to raise dollars by borrowing, I am glad.
a) We need to be at least partially self sufficient. Not live it up on imported goodies. Even wheat flour and lentils* used by rural poor are imported. Plenty of substitutes and we had that in the 70’s under Mrs Bandaranaike.
b) Our foreign ME remittances are back to 30% or more, and not being used to service debt. (Tourism still low)
c) Regards fossil fuels, Russia, India and China are giving it to us on credit and steep discounts. China just gave (as in free) diesel for agricultural use.
I did not see this before, but 4 Indian actresses, either married or have/had a white bf. what is happening?. Was this a cultural shift that happened that I did not notice?.zinta,chopra,saran, d’souza. ???.
All within a period of 10 yrs.
radhika apte as well. not a single black dude or middle eastern dude or asian dude or anything else. funny.
Indians girls becoming like East Asian girls 🤔
i just checked and the numbers are much more than that, i just saw few actors and thought, am i seeing a pattern, worse, some of these are not rich either. I think its clear, all those fair looks that go into making Indian actress lead them to look for same.
The mindset i changed as a 12 yrs old, i find it hard to believe most human beings like their biases and wont see to correct their thinking.
‘For those in Tamilnadu of Tamil origin, which identity would you choose as your primary one if you had to choose one or the other below?
Indian
Tamil’
Interesting survey results
Will be similar in Punjab.
True for all less-Hindu regions
Plenty evidence of Tamil first, nation nowhere right next door.
Oh, dont u worry. That could soon be true on this side of the coast as well 😉
dont mind , let racists be racists , i am out of this topic, onto next one.
I dont respect humanities, arts/ cinema etc, they have highest % of lunatics.
Strong sentiments in Kannada Twitter against use of Hindi in public spaces. More and more 90s kids joining in and not just Vatal Nagaraj types.
At least 2-3 lateral factors in play – the Maharashtra intransigence in the border districts, cultural topics (Kannada vs Sanskrit) that get out of hand and…..more consistently we see a lot of national left wing media houses aligning behind Hindi speakers.
The last factor is roiling the local leftist scene as it prevents consolidation of its traditional vote blocs.
The issue will surely gather momentum into a hardball that Bommai will find it tough to tackle.
In time Kannada chauvinists will learn that the only viable road is full blown cultural revanchism (neither right-wing or left-wing) can provide a salve.
this is very fringe issue. normal kannadiga is not as agitated as a tamil on this issue. at time parties like jds are raising this issue and not getting much traction. there is bit of an irritation of the ‘new’ hindiwallas not learning kannada, an this is in bangalore only.
half the sate was under maratha rule or under the nizam of hyderbad and are aware ofthe hindi/persian words. generally not an issue.
On the language Vs Indian question, I suspect the question was deliberately framed that way. I suspect the results would be similar in all southern states, maybe even MH. However the results would flip if the question were framed as “do you agree that “X” language/culture is part of broader Indian civilization/culture?”.
Gangetic states will not see the difference because they don’t have to give up on their language as implied in the og question.
I doubt that answers would have flipped even for ‘“do you agree that “X” language/culture is part of broader Indian civilization/culture?”. Especially for this question.
We all know which ethnicities/languages we are talking about here. No one goes around saying it to Marathi or Telugu folks, even though they are not Hindi speaking folks, so ur assertion on Gangetic folks is wrong.
The question is specific to none/less-Hindu ethnicities.
30% of Gangetic folks will say they are Muslim first and only Ummah matters. Another 25% (Yadav’s/OBCs) will be ok with this and even support it.
BIMARU kangers have the most insidious political-cultural problem at home for several centuries. And they will go on fact finding missions to other regions to make themselves feel better!
Better 30 percent than 100 percent, No?
“Better 30 percent than…..”
Classic! Tells everything how a band of sheepstealers could reduce this region to servitude.
The impotence of Gangetic folks in building any sort of cultural project makes them fearful of the ones that do.
The only identity having valence in the Gangetic regions is caste. Which is why you have rapproachments like the Muslim – Yadav symbiosis rather than any sort of linguistic or ideological camps.
Well the Gangetic folks did create a culture. Indian/Hindu culture.
All other people are just catching up..
There is a reason why Shinde is the cm and not fadnavis. There was a kerfuffle on RRR twtr where Hindi speakers objected to Jagan and Rajamouli championing telugu cinema and pride.
Not sure why anyone is suprised? The idea of an Indian civilization might have existed for millenia but a strong state to enforce that notion has been a very rare feature in Indian history. The current one is only two generations old. So yeah, not everyone is going to put their broader identity(civilization, nation-state whatever) above their local/regional one. And this phenomenon is not even unique to India. You ask a Quebecois or a Welshman, if they prioritize their regional identity over national ones and they would say yes. And yet their respective nation-states survive. And those countries even have active separatist movements involved in the political process unlike in South India. Trying too hard to impose national identity over regional ones will only backfire.
‘So yeah, not everyone is going to put their broader identity(civilization, nation-state whatever) above their local/regional one.’
Well that’s true. But is there a correlation b/w folks from certain ethnicities putting their regional identities above their broader civilizational identities. While other ethnicities don’t.
‘RRR isn’t buzzing because innocent White Americans cannot get the anti-Native narrative and far-right ideas in the film, but because Hindu-chauvinist art has for long been a place where White audiences’ prejudices can comfortably hide in plain sight.
RRR does not differ much from Lagaan and its Oscar entry. White Mensahib innocence, casteist paternalism, majoritarian nationalism passing as anticolonial radicality…’
Superficially, he’s not wrong that white right-wing radicals have long been attracted to Hindutva or even Hinduism in general in a way they haven’t been to e.g. Islam. But I think forcing that narrative into RRR is silly. The reason why he does that is because he’s a white leftist so he feels he can’t talk on behalf of browns, so he tries to find a “white angle”. All part of intersectionality politics.
I suspect that most of the hostility towards RRR will come from woke brown types living in the diaspora. Indeed, this is already happening.
For India, any cultural push into the West will most likely face this stumbling bloc, namely that many “cultural brown critics” absolutely detest its government and will throw Indian films down the gutter if they have to in order to score political points. This is the problem when the right-wing cedes cultural space in the diaspora to activist woke types.
You see the same problem in East Asian cicles. They didn’t know how to react when most of the interracial violence in cities like NYC came from blacks, since all their narratives were based on evil Trump supporters rampaging trying to stage a fascist coup or whatever. The main difference between East Asians and South Asians is that the latter is far more heterogenous, which means there’s plenty of space reserved for “intra-group oppression” narratives. Indeed, we already see this with the Cisco case hyping and Brown University now adding caste to its official list of discriminatory practices. Expect these battles to transcend into the cultural realm, also.
‘I suspect that most of the hostility towards RRR will come from woke brown types living in the diaspora.’
I also see hostility towards RRR from certain ethnicities back in India as well. We all know which ethnicities i am talking about…
Definitely not us 😜. Telugu actors are being adored all over Cow-belt. Allu Arjun, Prabhas, Ram Charan are bonafide superstars in even village barber shops. They have surpassed Rajnikant and Chinranjeevi. Yash and Jr. NTR need a few more Hindi hits.
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I think the first movie that ushered this change was Chattrapathi in 2005. It was qualitatively different from ‘Indra the tiger’ type poop Telugu cinema used to make.
Tamil cinema had a head start in creativity but Telugu cinema finally won and ate the cake.
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I do buy the meta argument that higher GDP/capita leads to better cinema. Bengal did well in cinema before it went broke, Mumbai dominated for decades, Chennai flexed but…, Now it is Hyderabad and Bangalore’s turn.
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“Well the Gangetic folks did create a culture. Indian/Hindu culture.”
The sheepstealers slapped the Gangetic kangers so hard they have now started thinking like them. UP is Mecca, Rgveda.pdf was written in their uncle’s house and Ganga is Zamzam.
Tamilnadu is 88% Hindu while UP is 80% (2011 census). Tamilnadu did not have religious trauma in the past, therefore no need for overt religious signalling. The predominant political culture creates and processes newer forms of mobilization (linguistic, socialistic, middle-caste hegemonies, cinematic idolization etc).
UP has a lot of visible and invisible damage to religiosity. Plus significant counter-mobilization within the Hindu communities (Yadavs/OBCs allying with Muslims against the UCs). There is just enough political energy for survival. None for cultural projects on non-religious lines.
All of this is the root of Saurav’s “less Hindu” rant. Basically a “shirk” type worldview where he processes the incomprehensible political cultures of other Indian regions into the binary of his own region’s faultline.
“ Tamilnadu is 88% Hindu “
LOL
I guess, non-hindu Tamils will be visiting “non-hindu” Temples and celebrating Pongal(a non hindu festival) on Sunday.
ugra, whom do you speak for?. Not telugu or kannada or maharastra or malyalam. For all talk of south/north, kerala on demographic issue is much worse. And they didnt face mughals in such a sustained way.
And there is nothing TN people possessed socially or technologically that could have helped repel the invaders. Their only luck is geography and that others on the north fought and resisted. But are too dumb and arrogant not to respect the sacrifices made.
Tamil chauvinism irks all other south Indians as well, be it telugus, kannadas or malyalis as well. The only ones who fought are marathas and sikhs, the rest were not good enough. Thats the reality. Whether it be martial warfare or even Independence movement.
There was very little contribution from south in determining its own future, its future, was gifted by those who fought for Independence and those who fought invasions. The reality is this that south essentially wasted away over past 4 to 5 centuries and achieved nothing of significance.
One can understand lack of development in north, but what of south?. Why did they so easily fall to british, why is it that they achieved nothing of worth culturally or technologically. Because they were too dumb and arrogant to not care. Intelligence is to learn from others pain.
In the world of ugra, there is no merit in valuing nelson mandela or martin luther king jr, there is no merit in opposing racism either because that is not tamil history. And what is not in tamil history is useless. And any one who were conquered were weak and useless anyway. But that is a typical tamil mind , brainwashed and take pride in their own brainwashing. After all, why work to learn from others when it is easy to arrogate one’s own luck as one’s superiority.
An average person learns from own mistakes,intelligent people learn from others as well. I hope for intelligence, its not there right now.
The consistent thing about ugra is that he is a chauvinist linguistically and also caste, religion is an after thought. The way to deal with them is not to feed them and self reinforce chauvinism on all sides.
A common language makes a common nation. The concept of a nation state was conceptualized in Europe and was basically based on a strong linguistic identity, where language literally is the basis of most countries. When applying and imposing this idea of a sovereign unitary modern nation state on other non-European regions with diverse sets of linguistic traditions contained within those geographical boundaries, it has only been a cause of strife and division.
The British created Indian nationalism indirectly by promoting the use of the mass language ‘Hindustani’ in regions where other local rural languages were commonly spoken. Hindi has been replacing and absorbing these local languages and the regions that adopted it are the regions that are most nationalistic (according to Saurav)
However Hindi faces resistance in areas where the British did not make Hindustani the official language (Bengal, Madras, Bombay Province, Sindh) and these areas are more insular, and seem have less time for the ‘nation’.
Interestingly Pew did a survey in Pakistan about ethnic vs national identification few years ago, and it seems to agree with my theory.. the survey was done in urban areas (where Urdu is primary language) so one should take it with a grain of salt, but Sindh being an outlier in Pakistan aligns with the fact that Hindustani was not made the official language here.
Qureshi,
There is the european concept of nation formalized at treaty of westphalia 1848. Worth noting how european nations are themselves re-integrating in to EU.
Anyway, we Bharatiyas have our own native traditions of a civilization. It is messy to get it working but there is enough critical mass to keep it going. Tbf none of our subcontinental neighbors who have gone the route of ethno linguistic state have come out as shining sustainable examples. From what I can gather by your earlier arguments — economic growth does not matter as long Ms out breed Hs in the subcontinent, Hs can build the cake, Ms will have it. Your scenario has a non-zero chance of success but that is not an argument for IN to desist from doing it the right and hard way.
Ms will outbreed Hs but in India that might take a couple of centuries and who knows what happens till then? At this point, bigger problem in India is that NIs will outbreed SIs and take the cake. And this seems to concern many SIs.
Anyway I’m just commenting that language is the basis for culture and most of divisions present. It is a powerful tool that can unite as well as divide.
People tend to over look it and unduly blame religion or race/ethnicity.
NIs have always been more numerous than SIs. The coming delimitation exercise in 2026 will be contentious and there will be many parties queering the pitch but I am sure a workable solution will be worked out. As for fiscal transfers, there is in fact wider acceptance of toilet, running water and home construction programs. The overwhelming portion of beneficiaries are NIs. The only sticking points are language/sub-cultures. Again I believe these are easily solvable.
I take your point about language being an important part but my point is that it is not sufficient. European concept of a nation consisting of a single language worked well when small nations like Portugal and Belgium had huge resources rich colonies in Asia and Africa. The moment the age of colonies came to an end in the aftermath of WW 2, the EU was born.
This is the only card Pakistanis (think they) have. Just like they use to chant Nuclear-Nuclear-Nuclear not that long ago.
—
Trad twitter has the most interesting ideas and wittiest memes. Some include:
1) Scathing criticism of BJP. Hilarious takedowns of Modi.
2) Advocating active and incessant destabilization of Pakistan.
3) Stats on OBC-OBC, OBC-Dalit, violence.
4) Shitting on Hindutva ‘sluts’ like that big-tit tarot lady and that onlyfan girl Kamya that Vineet from Indic Explorer (BP) interviewed.
5) Shitting on pro Hindutva foreigners.
—
Trads can shout all they want but they can’t do anything without BJP.
Despite the occasional V.P. Singh amongst them, NI Thakur trads might pull something big off if Yogi wins. They have muscle, cohesion and genuine will to dominate. I consider Thakurs are already 10X what Khalistanis can ever hope to be. The most bakchod amongst trads are urban NI Bamans. The problem with non land owning NI Bamans i.e. Sharma-Vajpayee-Tiwari types is that they can’t pull the trigger. Their need to sound a certain way is strong. IMO Bengalis are B/C-grade NI Bamans, that is why they are so irritating and conceited.
I do think Narasimha Rao was the best PM of India. If Tamils were not so universally disliked maybe even Kamaraj would have made a good PM.
@Saurav
“Well that’s true. But is there a correlation b/w folks from certain ethnicities putting their regional identities above their broader civilizational identities. While other ethnicities don’t.
I think there is.”
This is true. In all countries that are a union of different ethnic and religious groups, one group is always more invested in the national project than others. This group will generally suppress its own nationalism in favor of a broader civic nationalism. In the UK, its the English, in Canada, its the Anglophones, in the US, its the White Protestants and so on. Failed examples, include Germans in Austria-Hungary and Serbs in Yugoslavia.
In India’s case, there is no doubt that the “core” group is Hindi speaking North Indian Hindus. But they will just have to take one for the team and be ok with chauvinism from other ethnic and religious groups while not displaying their own chauvinism or God forbid impose it on other groups. It sucks for them and might even be unfair but North Indian Hindus can take comfort in that they are not the only ones who have to deal with this. As said before, English in the UK, Anglophones in Canada and White Protestants in the US have to deal with the same thing. Otherwise the national project will fail as the Austrian Germans and Yugoslav Serbs found out the hard way.
HJ,
Sincere question. What are the concrete damages caused by Tamil nationalism to the wider Indian nationalism project?
As long as there are no violent separatist groups, Tamil nationalism should be able to coexist with the Indian state. Of course, if such groups emerge, they should be cracked down. Most people will be ok with that. The rising middle class values security and stability.
Peaceful and democratic political movements that espouse nationalism can be co-opted into the political process at state and national levels. There will be grumbles but the Indian state will be fine. Harsh crackdowns on peaceful political parties on the other hand by the national government will alienate the populace and cause serious issues. India being such a geographically and demographically large country means that Indian nationalism will never be as uniformly widespread as in a small homogeneous country.
But on the whole, the Indian state has done ridiculously well. As I said before, it doesn’t have a long history so its remarkable, how little separatism actually exists in India given the stark linguistic differences between the various states.
A lot of these “problems” are not unique to India.
HJ,
Thank you and my point exactly. On the contrary TN has been providing economic surplus alongwith GJ, MH, TL and KA. My quibble then is your using rhetorical excesses of Tamil sub-nationalism as an excuse to characterize NIs as core group, while condoning “more hindu” rhetoric of NIs. By this rhetorical sleight of hand, you not only downgraded Tamils but other non-Tamil and non-hindi speakers to 2nd class status.
According to NakedCapitalism links on Jan 12, this was a must read. I agree. Would add the same (as in collapse) for the US, 1.2 million deaths deaths and not an issue.
——-
Watching Britain turn into what it is now — the first rich European country to become a failed state, which in itself is mind-boggling — is to witness something historic.
Britain’s different. It had…everything. I mean that. It had everything that a modern society could wish for, and then some. It used to be the envy of the world. Until a decade ago — just ten years — the NHS was the world’s best healthcare system.
Right about now, Britain’s own finer minds have estimated that there have been 25,000 excess deaths because…the NHS has collapsed.
Some of his points are valid, most of it is overblown but his writing is definitely cringe.
But all of his initial points regarding health and economy are just a cover for his real gripe, which he drops at the end. That Britain is xenophobic. I guess taking in hundreds of thousands of immigrants from all over the world is not enough for Mr Haque. Standard for someone like him. His other posts are similarly targeted at Western right wing. You used to see a lot of these takes 5-10 years ago when the War on Terror was still relevant but its getting rarer nowadays.
Hyperbole
HJ
There was a similar article on the NHS by Danny Dorling, a British social geographer and is the Halford Mackinder Professor of Geography of the School of Geography and the Environment of the University of Oxford.
A&E (Accident and Emergency) delays are ‘killing up to 500 people a week’”.
This figure – 5% above the normal number of people who die each week, though that baseline is also rising – can surely be traced back to the act, which ushered in a greater wave of privatisation than ever before. It compelled NHS management to behave as if they were in the private sector, competing to win business, and led to an increase in the proportion of contracts won and the use of contracts overall.
By 2019, life expectancy for women had fallen in almost a fifth of all neighbourhoods and in over a tenth for men. Poorer people, both old and young, in poorer areas suffered most, with infant mortality among babies born to the poorest parents rising. Later there was a rise in deaths of women who were pregnant.
Again, the damage was not so much through the extent of covert privatisation, but through the wider ethos that had been promoted. Take the USA: most of the enormous amount of money spent on healthcare there has little impact on improving health, because the ethos is wrong.
‘But they will just have to take one for the team and be ok with chauvinism from other ethnic and religious groups while not displaying their own chauvinism or God forbid impose it on other groups. ‘
Well what have been N-Indians being doing apart from ‘taking one for the team’ all these years?
My argument is NI patience is wearing thin. The other Indians have to step up now. We are done dealing with the shit and mollycoddling other Indians. Now we do what we want. And if that irks other Indians, or make them feel ‘2nd class citizen’ or whatever, then so be it.
That in a nutshell is the rise of the BJP/Modi.
[email protected], [email protected],
Sincerely…Please list the pain points or damage caused by Tamils, and/or by other SIs that you had to mollycoddle.
Tamils damaged their egos by rejecting Hindi&Hindutva lol
… and Hinduism.
Go the whole hog, man
@Saurav TN has the most temples in all of India, by saying “Tamils are not Hindu”, the only thing you’re taking away from us is a trivial Persian exonym. UNESCO won’t deem the Chola Temples unworthy if its not called Hindu.
BJPites tend to throw a tantrum and call Tamils Anti-Hindu, because we don’t accept their Islam related Historical Grievances. Look, you guys can either learn from the past and bounce back like the japs after WW2 Or you can wallow&stew in this “Hindu Victimhood Identity” like the BLM folks. Most Indians are over colonialism, we’ve made UK our trade partners and English the official language of India. Does this mean that we’ve forgotten the atrocities? No, but we also don’t hold onto it and use the resentment as the basis for our National Identity.
Its heartening to see that its not just the less-Hindu ethnicities of the subcontinent who are facing an identity crisis
Bruh, you folks don’t even see yourselves as an ethnicity, you yourself are only obsessed with gatekeeping the Hindu Identity lol Adding to what @HJ said, Cowbelt has always acted as the laboratory for “National Projects”, whether it be Nehru’s Ganga-Jamuni-Tehzeeb or Savarkar’s Hindutva. Aside from Hindutva, i can’t think of a common historical narrative for Cowbelt in the same way Sangam Era is for Tamils. Marwari&Awadi speakers don’t see each others as any closer than say, any other Hindi speaking Indian.
‘UNESCO won’t deem the Chola Temples unworthy if its not called Hindu.’
Forget UNESCO, do Tamils themselves see Cholas as Hindus? First clear it out among yourselves.
‘Aside from Hindutva, i can’t think of a common historical narrative for Cowbelt in the same way Sangam Era is for Tamils. ‘
Bro, again . We gave this country its identity, and its religion. We can rest a bit, you would say. Let others pick up some slack.
well seriously yes,
one more bjp term in centre and dmk out of power in centre will be disastrous for them.
karunanidhi would have found a way to worm back into modi’s good books.
our wig raja is not that savvy and the fringe ‘tamil nationalists’ have have taken power.
[email protected]
You are talking about loss of Tamil bargaining chip due to single party government in Delhi. Coalition government relying on Tamil and/or telugu parties was true only from 89-2014. Language chauvinism was present even earlier as well when Congress dominated center. Even then TN development trajectory has been better right from the beginning. I don’t see how Tamils are blocking NIs. Is the assumption that they consistently vote for regional Tamil parties reason enough to brand them separatists?
Seriously this mentality is not good for anyone. I am glad the modi/bjp don’t subscribe to this mentality.
In fact Tamil opinion has been generally appreciative of modi government line in the rus-ukr war. It was very satisfying to read the dejection of nyt opinion columnist who had to quote a Chennai businessman who approved the government handling of the situation.
Carnival a la Sri Lanka
This is a perahera a “Buddhist Procession” in the Deep South.
What is to be noted
a) The horn sections of the different groups.
I mean each group has its own horn section
b) You can spot the different groups by the designs on the sarongs
c) Whats with the deep south Sinhalese, they love the horns and drums.
The endless needless chauvinism we see here is a sign of low brain power. Try better guys. If something is wrong, point it out. i point to problem with bihar,but dont taunt or make snide remarks, have constructive criticism.
To Bhumiputra,
1. The foundation for tamilnadu’s development was laid by British and subsequent Congress govt. Once the Dravidian became ruling class the development is patchy.
2. Intellectually Tamil has stagnated. Kannada 6 jnanapeeta Awards Vs. 2 for Tamil.
3. The Dravidian speak in double endrand as far as separatisim goes. This will be called out by others sooner than later. This time has come.
4. The outward movement of Tamils to other states has reduced. This has made them very inward looking.
1. tamilians will say their tank irrigation system predated british. not my area of expertise. TN has dravidian governments since 69 and has maintained the lead while improving HDI.
2. None of our (kannadiga’s) business and good for us. I trust tamilians to realize that and focus on producing cultural output. afaik they have not stopped Hindi or any other language speakers to produce good literature or music.
3. not sure what specific double standards you have in mind. The fact is that in 62 war, even DMK gave up its nominally separatist demand. Even now, public opinion is broadly supportive of IN’s foreign policy line in the RUS-UKR war. Beyond that they are aggressive/touchy with their language. But that does not justify grouping them with Punjabi separatism. We kannadigas already have water sharing and other issues with TN. I for one don’t want to import the Punjabi-Poorbiya dynamic down south and make things worse.
4. Seriously, a people are being dinged for being happy and content in their own home state?
The only ppl who have a genuine gripe with periyar politics are TamBrahms.
TN does “seem” to have issues with influence of church esp with DMK gov. But that applies to AP as well. That partly explains traction that bjp/annamalai and admk are getting. The final outcome is not known. The best Hindus/Dharmics in other states can do is not go around calling Tamils lesser Hindus.
calling ppl lesser H’s is bad and i did call out on that before as well.
“ The best Hindus/Dharmics in other states can do is not go around calling Tamils lesser Hindus.“
There is a reason why the CAA does not cover Tamils from Lanka. The most recently affected people due to any civil war: while it covers even Bengalis.
You know where they lie in the totem pole. No one needs to say it. Everyone know it’s. And some like HJ accept it.
I don’t think you understand the true purpose of CAA. It’s all about disenfranchising illegal muslim immigrants from PAK/BD, who will never vote for BJP. And keep them as bargaining chips for any future negotiations. SL, Tibet would have been included if there is a chance of Muslims from these places immigrating to India.
They don’t give af about Hindus from the neighborhood. It’s a minuscule number to make a difference to the BJP votebank. Actually, minorities from PAK/BD don’t need CAA at all – current rules already allow them to legally immigrate and naturalize in India. But nobody cares about them – proof is the Pak Hindus refugees settled near Delhi for decades – they don’t even have electricity, forget about citizenship. India is not Israel.
SL Hindus who want to be here (Civil war refugees) and should be here (Hill tamils) are already here. SL Tamils have better places to go like Canada, UK, Norway etc.
Bro, my folks brought the CAA. Rest assured i understand it totally. Though i oppose it fully, but not for the reasons widely touted about.
What you are talking about ‘disenfranchising illegal muslim immigrants’ is NRC and not CAA. But you are right in one thing , there are bargaining chips, just that it not the muslims, but the Hindus (PB, Sindhi and Bengali) of these other countries. Vote for citizenship. Simple.
Since the Bengali Hindus didn’t vote the BJP, there is no CAA for them. What i want to point out that the BJP and the larger Hindutva movement does not even consider Tamil Hindus in their consideration within the ambit of such useless bill. That shows them their position.
1. Tank irrigation in TN (and large parts of Southern Kerala) is a thousand years old, dates to the Late Chola period, and continuously improved during Nayak, Maratha, British eras. In the Cauvery delta you can find water rights that go back centuries.
2. Tamil literature is healthier than ever – footfalls on book fairs even in second rung towns are testament to this. There was a mass daily reading movement during the COVID lockdown period. I think you may not have heard about Venmurasu – a Mahabharatha novelization – longest novel in the world, written in the last decade.
IMHO JP awards are not a great yardstick for vitality. Why do I say that? Politics. You expect SL Bhyrappa to ever get JP award? I say politics because one of the two JP recipients for Tamil (Akilan) doesn’t deserve it. And two others who deserve it and more (Ashokamitran and Ki Rajanarayanan) were never considered at all – they both are certainly better than someone like Kambara.
Tamil performing arts are not doing great (except Bharatanatyam), when compared to say Kathakali or Yakshagana.
3. I just don’t get this TN separatism talk at all. Sounds like non-Tamil people make a huge hue and cry about TN separatism more than TN people. Let me make it clear – there is zero ground level support for separatism, whatever little there was was gone after Rajiv/1991. Q branch and other state intelligence agencies have done a great job in eliminating any fringe separatist elements – be it Maoists, Linguistic separatists or radical islamists. Sabre rattling by DMK is just that – they will shut up as soon as they make a deal with BJP and become a part of the ruling dispensation in the centre.
No one gives a damn about TN separatism or exceptionalism. Nor will the DMK be a part of the centre, or Modi allow it. There will be cold peace b/w them.
What you see is the rise of N-Indian supremacism who have for long resisted throwing their weight around. Which has irked the other ethnic/language supremacists who thought they had the only right to play that card. The BJP leads the former, while the opposition/Congress leads the latter.
Both Karuna and MGR/Jaya laid down the industrial oriented pipeline of TN as we see it today. Congress under Rajaji, Kamaraj got basics right.
Most UPwallahs (subalterns, OBCs) and other North groups have a grudging admiration of TN Dravidianism.
It is a middle caste hegemonic force that has controlled both UCs and Dalit resurgence from spinning out of control. Communists don’t get too much traction and Congress remains a trained lapdog.
Everywhere else, especially in the Gangetic Belt – Yadav’s and subalterns are out of control, communists destroyed Kolkata (a premier Asian hub) and most politicos are anti-industry. Clusterfuck after clusterfuck.
Tamilnadu gets approximately 45000 crores of internal investment annually from the North Indian hinterland. People know a safe haven when they see one.
The maritime industriousness of the last millennia is unchanged in TN. Modernity has a different set of challenges – subaltern resurgence, eurocentric dogmas (communism, socialism) make governance very tough.
It is not easy to become one of the Top 4 of India (Maha, Guj, Kar) without bipartisan commitment to industry and urbanisation. The Dravidian plank is a concordat – every social group knows what they are getting out of it.
Addendum:
I also consider it a great Providence that the three former Leaders of TN – Kamaraj, Karuna and MGR did not complete middle school or just high school. They were blessed with a earthy no-nonsense intelligence that allowed for a great foresight.
When I look at the Gangetic leaders of the same period, Lohia went to Germany, JP went to Wisconsin and Jyoti Basu went to London for their studies!!
The middle caste revolution was truly one of applied praxis rather than the upper caste mode of endless knowledge acquisition.
Being a tamil, don’t use words like providence. You will be called out here as a crypto xian. 🙂
Wait , aren’t Tamils that already? 😉
#ugra,
it is a middle caste hegemonic force that has controlled both UCs and Dalit resurgence from spinning out of control.
yes, this is dravidianism.
for some reason, this has not taken deep roots in karnataka, as probably one of the middle castes- Lingayats have an identity problem. are they shudras? or protestant brahmins led mid caste groups?
in kerala since the middle castes- ezvas and nairs control the hindu narrative.
[email protected]
Afaik the aradhyas claim to be “Protestant” Brahmins. The other jangamas don’t. One reason might be lingayats at least historically didn’t care much about getting higher ritual status from Brahmins. All the milestone rituals were conducted by jangamas + dasa aoha (community dining) meant a fairly cohesive but largely insular community. This was true of north KA. But these days things are changing as more lingayats are moving to urban areas.
Regardless the friction and competition between Bs and farming castes is endemic throughout IN, both north and south. In KL, I believe the caste conflict shows up as party conflict between communist ezhavas and rss/nairs. Ofc this is complicated by presence of large percentage of Ms and Cs.
Death Squads killing civilians=War Crimes
All the countries that participated in the Afgan War would be accessories. i.e. UK, Canada, Australia, NZ etc
Nothing is going to happen,no one will be held accountable*. As they say in Sri Lanka, “The goods are of the Chief, and the Laws are of the Chied”. Baduth Hamu ge,nithyath hamu ge.
*The US, UK and Canada will meanwhile accuse small countries of war crimes and act as judge and jury.
Excerpts
At least 452 civilians were killed in 107 raids. This number is almost certainly an undercount.
The Afghan soldiers weren’t alone on the raids; U.S. special operations forces soldiers working with the C.I.A. often joined them.
A troubling number of raids appear to have relied on faulty intelligence by the C.I.A
Military planners baked potential “collateral damage” into the pre-raid calculus — how many women/children/noncombatants were at risk if the raid went awry,
South Indian Brahmin groups seem to have a higher chance of having light eyes than other groups…
I’m not even one so I’m not one to be biased btw just an observation because even random people seem to have it and I don’t go looking for the light eyed types either.
Its heartening to see that its not just the less-Hindu ethnicities of the subcontinent who are facing an identity crisis. There are now less-muslim ethnicities who are trying to link themselves with Arabia. 😂😂😂
@saurav
> Bro, my folks brought the CAA. Rest assured i understand it totally. Though i oppose it fully, but not for the reasons widely touted about. What you are talking about ‘disenfranchising illegal muslim immigrants’ is NRC and not CAA.
Since your folks brought the CAA, you should know about the CAA-NRC-NPR combo. Chronology Samajye. Listen to Amit Shah.
> What i want to point out that the BJP and the larger Hindutva movement does not even consider Tamil Hindus in their consideration within the ambit of such useless bill. That shows them their position.
Who brings a legislation to slyly slight a specific demographic – this is politics, not a middle school playground. Even if BJP really wants to slight Tamil Hindus they would come out and say so, the way they do when their legislation is specifically targeting Muslims (see Amit Shah Chronology, Yogi 80/20). And what does BJP gain by slighting Tamils – will BJP vote share in UP increase just because BJP showed the uppity Tamils their place.
I will take your Tamil slight theory seriously if SL Tamil Hindus were the only group excluded. But Bhutan, Tibet and Myanmar are also excluded – Hindus in Bhutan are actually a persecuted group. Same with Tibetan Buddhists. So this is not some Dharmic minority saviour act, it’s just a no-vote-for-muslim-fence-jumpers act.
Stalin is just playing to the gallery – we know India doesn’t care about poor Hindus from the neighborhood, doesn’t matter if they are SL Hindus, PB/Sindhi hindus from Pak or Bengali hindus from BD.
> No one gives a damn about TN separatism or exceptionalism.
You seem to give a damn. TN people don’t and I was contextualizing about it only with brown, bhumiputra in this thread.
> Nor will the DMK be a part of the centre, or Modi allow it. There will be cold peace b/w them.
There is cold peace already if you haven’t noticed. DMK have stopped directly attacking natl BJP leadership and ED/CBI are nowhere to be seen in TN (DMK family have done plenty in 2 years to attract ED).
I think it’s all about the numbers. For LS 2024, to make up for any shortfall in RJ, BH, MP, KA, HP etc, BJP will take along anybody, including DMK (they have done it before), same way they have taken along Akalis before and other separatist parties of yore from NE. Neither DMK nor BJP are a principled lot.
Again the bill was not brought in to slight Tamil Hindus. Why do u folks, always think that you are so important?
The point is that Tamil Hindus are so immaterial in Hindutva calculation that EVEN the Bengalis sort of pip them from the bottom. That the BJP could have included Tamil Hindus in this useless bill, (which i am pretty sure would not be implemented anyway), and it would not have mattered, but still didn’t.
Plus on NRC, you seem to put a lot of weight on Amit Shah’s words. Let me present you someone, who’s words sort of weigh tad bit heavily than Shah.
‘PM Narendra Modi: No talk of NRC at all, lies being spread about detention centres’
When people talk about the cultural clash between BIMARU India and Non-BIMARU India they often overlook a surprising aspect of Hindi pop culture. Since Hindi is the most widely spoken language in India, outsiders automatically assume that Hindi speaking states form the core cultural group of India. This is a reasonable assumption since the culture associated with a particular language is usually produced by the native speakers of that language. However, Hindi is a striking exception to this rule. If you look at the famous actors, directors, or playback singers of Bollywood, it’s easy to see that almost all of them are Punjabis, Urdu speaking Muslims, Bengalis, Maharashtrians or South Indians. Indian pop culture is essentially the culture of Non-BIMARU states, and BIMARU India, despite having all the native speakers, is almost invisible even in the Hindi cultural sphere.
Why does this happen ? Why can’t BIMARU India compete with the states where Hindi is spoken as a second or third language ?
Long overdue. I think ISRO weather forecasting just does not provide the granularity or frequency to be of any practical use for most people. Not sure why this was not prioritized before. Limited money for tech projects in IN further gets wasted on lot of pet white elephant projects.
“ DMK’s efforts to de-Hinduize #Pongal and make it Samathuva Pongal will be roundly defeated like how it’s attempt to change the Hindu Tamil New Year from 14th April to Pongal day has been defeated. Pongal was, is and will be a Hindu Festival celebreated by Tamils. “
Why in the 88 percent hindu land , a Hindu festival being de – Hinduized
Interesting. 🤔
Pognal is not “De-hinduized”, its being Secularied and its a good thing. We get to culturally assimilate Xtians&Muslims into our culture that way. This is not any different from Christmas in the west being turned into a “Secular” holiday that even non-chrsitians&atheists celebrate.
Here’s a fun thought, wouldn’t it be neat if Muslim Biharis celebrated Holi? Well, we got our Muslims celebrate Tamil Makar Sankranti.
You do not need to fight me or justify anything. Just accept it. It’s not like we can change anything. The minimum one expects is to alteast be truthful to the ground realities.
Plus it’s not like regions which were erstwhile hindu areas haven’t converted to non Hindu areas.
“ wouldn’t it be neat if Muslim Biharis celebrated Holi? Well, we got our Muslims celebrate Tamil Makar Sankranti.”
Punjabi Muslims used to celebrate Basant, look how well that is going.
Non-Hindus are free to participate in Hindu festivals, but at a basic level of courtesy they need to acknowledge that it is a Hindu festival.
If their religion prohibits them from participating in Hindu festivals that is their problem.
It doesn’t follow that we should secularize our festivals
“This is not any different from Christmas in the west being turned into a “Secular” holiday that even non-chrsitians&atheists celebrate.”
No. This is like Germans saying Weihnachten (German Christmas Eve) is a secular German festival rather than Christian.
Major festivals like Diwali are already quite secular in India.
Fuck secular festivals, this is capitalist propaganda. No compromise. Ek dhnag ki cheez hai Hinduism mein, woh bhi hagg do… I will trade 100 Christmas for 1 Chhath or Ganesh Chaturthi. I don’t want gora or mulla people in my festivals, just give me the old school deal. These stupid ideas always come from folks who don’t give even 11 rupay to a temple and have to think fifty times about touching feet of the temple Pandit ji or first gen working Indian women in 20s-30s-40s who consider festivals as chores. Thankfully my milieu is free of this disease so far.
I think similarly about weddings too. Dowry is almost dead which is excellent. But I hate the court marriages or muted ceremonies Indians do in the US and sometimes even in India. I have seen such lame Hindu weddings in the past five years… Depressing. Spend atleast some money on weddings folks, have fun with friends and family, life is short. Chindi-pana is not enlightenment.
My UP school friends are doing ‘destination’ weddings in Coimbatore, Mysore, Kerala, …
Lamest ceremonies I have ever seen, no one knows what the fuck is going on, feels like some college party. Some Madraasi pandit ji who is too nice to shout at the North Indian late-arrival/drunk/giggling dulha and enforce muhurat, a dulhan who is more interested in Instagram. Wannabe parents who want to ape Bollywood. NO old people to help Pandit ji with their jati-varna-regional customs, no folk songs, no dholak, no harmonium… Wannabe Chutiyapa
I would always happily pay for solid old school ceremonies over any Arya Samaji or ‘Bollywood-style’ nonsense.
There used to be some talk of Indian Americans “regression to the mean” in terms of IQ.
Well that’s seems to be wrong (when looking at poor fathers 25%-tile income and comparing with their sons, Indian and Chinese Americans do the best on avg the sons are 65th percentile )
obv 30 years ago. only midwit racists believed this
people will say “selective migration.” that has some truths. but they ignore all the chain migration decedents also doing well. But yeah the midwits and morons still troll with “82” a lot.
>“ wouldn’t it be neat if Muslim Biharis celebrated Holi?
Holi was generally celebrated by Muslims during the Mughal era, but the practice fell out during British rule.
> Punjabi Muslims used to celebrate Basant, look how well that is going.
Basant was banned in Punjab for increasing number of deaths.. (and rightly so) it was just unsafe to go out anywhere on a motorcycle in Feb. In Sindh, it is still celebrated since less number of people are doing it so it’s not as dangerous. I remember it being quite common here during our childhood, but these days not so much. Kids have other activities now to keep them preoccupied.
Earlier many birds used to die too after being entangled. Solution is to ban glass coated manjha and nylon yarn and use cotton ‘saddi’ only.
I had a lot of fun kite running as a child. I was never a good duelist or talented at flying a kite with no wind.
“Kids have other activities now to keep them preoccupied.”
Chutiye hain saale… kha-kha ke maida, gainde ho rahe hain. Baatein banayenge gym, e-sports, fala dhikana… pehenenge 4 number ka chashma
glasscoated manja was banned even before but its easy to make and sell, thus hard to enforce. Pecha larana is the essence of basant .. but with increasing population, urbanization and electrification.. flying kites enmasse is just not feasible in the cities. the government tries to set up parks for that activity but nobody really follows this.
Uttaryan is a big deal in Gujarat or cities with a lot of Gujaratis like Mumbai. And has a crazy amount of kite flying.
Was on Jan 14/ 15 so just a couple of days ago.
Lots of more dangerous festivals in India than that (Diwali, Holi, Muharram, Dahi Handi etc).
Not sure about Pakistan, but I tend to think it is semirelated to general purification of non-Islamic cultural elements with public safety used as cover.
if you follow PK english dailies, you know that favorite trick of establishment to show that they are liberal is to organize a “managed” basant festival in Lahore 🙂
But (with keeping up with the comment section), is Basant a Hindu festival, a muslim festival, a Sikh festival or a ‘secular’ festival?
All cool things are Hindu by default.
Sumit
6 people killed, 3 chidlren got their throats slit, 176 people injured just over last weekend in Gujrat.
I don’t see people dying like this in Diwali or Muharram. It’s upto local governments to ban it or not.. In Pakistan, the ban has resulted in kids looking for other activities, which to be frank is fine by me.. kite flying is not really a physical activity, so if some kid switches over to video games not a big deal.
Islam has nothing to do with this. adults have switched over to celebrating new years in Pakistan these days..
I don’t see Muharram surviving in it’s current form for very long, it will eventually become a elaborate event like Dandiya or village Numaish+Dangal:
(a) Not fun at all. Hardcore (the flailing not the wailing) energy yes, fun no.
(b) Too much organizational effort required. Go/no-go areas, need for large police escort, book road for event, weather…
(c) Iran in terminal decline. All the Iranian-cleric type fancy dress Maulana-sa’ab no longer carry that ‘aura’.
(d) Sunnis don’t approve of it. High probability of Shia-Sunni rioting.
Processions are slowly becoming less intense. Tajias are becoming more elaborate and kitschy. I think eventually Muharram in India will become elaborate parades.
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Barelvis urs with accompanying mela can be good family fun.
Muharram is going to continue like this.. Shias love reveling in their victimhood and make it a point to spread that narrative everywhere, and its so deeply ingrained in them that they find it hard to let go. I knew several “atheist” Shias who were always at the forefront of Muharram processions. Many of them cursed Islam but wrote love poetry for Ali and Hussain. It was cognitive dissonance at its peak. They are probably on the”moral side” of Islamic history so this explains the dissonance.
Morality and Muhammad’s ilk…
Ali had sex slaves…
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But this communal facts aside. I just meant Muharram processions are becoming tame as years go by. It will not disappear, why should it? but Muharram processions are transforming in front of us. More of wailing, less of walking on fire, flailing, and bleeding.
I am not trying to insult anyone. I watch videos of people ceremonial Maatam, and can’t help but enjoy the nautanki.
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‘Tatbir’ (the flailing, the beating, the walking on fire stuff) is all Haram. Khomeini, Khameni, Sistani, Shirazi, etc.. they all forbade it specifically because it causes bodily harm. It was always a fringe practise mostly by offshoot shia sects. and popularized by the internet. Basically by shunning tatbir, shias are becoming more orthodox muslims.. with more education, more globalization, these opinions penetrate even local cultural and religious beliefs.
You will also notice that Barelvi rituals are dying off with globalisation and internet. Visiting dargahs, doing dhamal, celebrating urs and venerating saints etc are all becoming less and less common. They are being replaced with more orthodox interpretations.. Deobandism is eating Barelvism from inside in both India and Pakistan.
This also reminds me: Americans have amazing kites. People fly kites just 10 feets off the ground with no effort on California beaches. They also have better charkhis. Will have to try it out someday.
I think when India becomes richer these innovations will be adopted. Flying Indian style ‘fighter’ kites is much harder.
The NYT recipe: “Under the government of Prime Minister Narendra Modi, and the surge of pro-vegetarian Hindu nationalism…”
No one on earth more banal than desi NYT writers
Russians have completely botched this invasion. Americans killed civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan but we had no intention of annexing these countries. We were always going to hand the governance to local elites and leave. Pissing of locals is tolerable when the stakes are negligible and they are located half way across the world from our borders. But presumably Russians want to annex Ukraine(parts at least) and stay there permanently. What good does it do to keep killing civilians then? Hanania puts it best. If Ukraine was a not a real country in February 2022, as Russian supporters like to claim, it sure is one now.
Suggest you diversify news sources on the war in Ukraine.
Checkout Judge Napolitano’s interviews with Douglas MacGregor and Scott Ritter on Youtube.
Checkout Alexander Mercouris on Youtube
Checkout MoonofAlabama website
Checkout Saker website- https://thesaker.is/
Checkout thebigserge on Twitter
Checkout Russianswithattitude on Twitter
You will get a completely different impression of the war in Ukraine.
Wheat flour scarcity in Pakistan is finally creating the kind of scenes that was 1980s Africa. The unofficial trade for a USD is 280 PKR. Even though the govt has “fixed” it at 228, nobody is willing to sell at that rate.
HJ Russians have completely botched this invasion. Americans killed civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan but we had no intention of annexing these countries. We were always going to hand the governance to local elites and leave.
If you read RT etc, you will see there are quite clear about their goals. De Nazification of Ukraine , which means completely destroying their military. So what happens next if Russia succeeds in its goals, i,e, defeat of Ukraine.
The Donbas etc have been handed over to Russian speakers of that area. There has been an ongoing fight between the Kiev and Donbas and Lubsank regions, which are pro Russian if not of Russian. This would be much like, the 30 year between Colombo and the LTTE Tamil speaker. The Ukraine situ is a Hindu Tamilians wet dream, India invades and destroys southern SL and Sri Lankas Tamil Hindu Majority areas become part of India.
Anyway and interesting read below. I agree the Ukraine Russia war is an existential proxy war between US/NATO and Russia. Quite a potential to spread.
excerpts
If the Russian economy resisted the sanctions indefinitely and managed to exhaust the European economy, while it itself remained, backed by China, American monetary and financial controls of the world would collapse, and with them the possibility for United States to fund their huge trade deficit for nothing. This war has therefore become existential for the United States. No more than Russia, they cannot withdraw from the conflict, they cannot let go. This is why we are now in an endless war, in a confrontation whose outcome must be the collapse of one or the other.”
Everywhere we see the weakening of the US, but not in Europe and Japan because one of the effects of the retraction of the imperial system is that the United States strengthens its hold on its initial protectorates. As the American system shrinks, it weighs ever more heavily on the local elites of the protectorates (and I include all of Europe here).
(As I have often pointed out)
He underlines the importance of skills and education: “The US is now twice as populated as Russia (2.2 times in student age groups). But in the US only 7% are studying engineering, while in Russia it is 25%. Which means that with 2.2 times fewer people studying, Russia trains 30% more engineers. The US fills the gap with foreign students, but they’re mainly Indians and even more Chinese.
I am not sure the number of engineers gives a complete picture. Assuming a decent fraction are really good is there an ecosystem or economy where they can solve problems and thrive economically without worrying about some oligarch stealing their IP. That is the major issue with all potential challengers to the current one. As a senior Chinese advisor said, “ the day the queue for American visas shortens is the day we know US has declined”
A fundamental problem facing revisionist powers like Russia, China, Iran and maybe even India is that their smartest tend to be more socially liberal than the government and the median citizen. So many if not most want to migrate to the West. Glory to the motherland just doesn’t motivate them.
I doubt that (at least in case of India) the smartest staying back would have benefitted their home country. At least by immigrating they sort of help the relationship b/w their home and immigrated country. US-India or UAE-India relationship.
I meet many smart pro Modi/India NRIs here in US, who i am pretty sure would have been anti Modi/India had they stayed back in India. The situation is so interesting that you find Pro Modi folks in even Tamil, Mallu and Bengali folks here in US.
i dont think that you can draw the conclusion all ppl immigrating to the US are socially liberal. I would wager that portion of socially conservative + “glory to motherland” may infact be a wee bit higher. It is just that most systems back in home country are dens of incompetence or corruption and are not deemed meritocratic. Now some ppl could argue that it is difficult to build open and meritocratic systems for revisionist powers since they could be vectors for foreign influence. you never know 🙂
The overwhelming majority of Indian immigrants to the US are upper caste Hindus, who in turn overwhelmingly (85%+) vote for the BJP.
The move to the West is purely a career and comfort thing. The BJP would comfortably win every election in Santa Clara.
Couple of things. The Indian immigration to US is indeed majorly UCs (though i doubt its as high as 80 percent), i would say that immigration to other countries has actually given rise to ‘socially conservative + “glory to motherland”; folks in diaspora , rather than the other way round. That these people had they stayed back in India, would have been socially liberal than the median.
We are also discounting the fact that majority of Indian immigration is to the Middle East where UCs form a smaller population. Plus its also from areas which are less Pro Modi/BJP states. But even there i see no dearth of “glory to motherland” type of phenomena.
HJ, you are only looking at upside risk and advantages. There is also a downside risk/probability facing revisionist powers like Russia, China, Iran and maybe even India is that their smartest tend to be more socially liberal than the government and the median citizen. So many if not most want to migrate to the West.
I think that has changed somewhat for Russians and Chinese in US with suspicion of their motives and allegiance. They’d be willing to study (US STEM has a lot of cred) and even get residency Green Card, while still keeping homeland citizenship, Easier exit from US, because still have their homeland citizenship.
For Indians who are not allowed dual citizenship, can be a issue. If this ends up being a world war, there is always a good possibility of draft. Will risk of oneself or children being drafted into a war out out weigh employment benefits.
Remember, probabilities change overnight. eg the likelihood of both WTC being attacked was very very small, so only one was insured. That probability changed over night.
I guess we will see how this plays out within this year.
The western pmc is united with the Indian, Chinese pmc in ensuring their kids are not drafted. US would be foolish to depend their plans on drafting Indian Americans. WW3 will not start till IN jumps completely on to western bandwagon and is ready to provide cannon fodder foot soldiers.
Fair enough, yall make some good points
@Bhumiputra
Don’t know about China, but in the West and I think in India as well, there is little overlap between the fighting class(regular soldiers not officers) and the professionl managerial class, no? And increasingly the PMC don’t even have children!
But you are right about India providing the “cannon fodder”. The West would prefer India to be the Soviet Union of WW3.
[email protected]
You are right about there being no overlap between the pmc and the fighting folks in west, India and from what I learnt thru [email protected] even in China. I was responding to [email protected] about the risk of a draft.
I think the separation of soldierly and scholarly class generally leads to negative outcomes but in this case it might be stalling catastrophe since all sides are searching for canon fodder.
Print’s article on how Yeddy started giving grants to Mathas of different lingayat sub castes and now even congress cant stop it. https://theprint.in/india/education-justice-poll-tickets-what-are-karnatakas-mutts-how-they-became-power-centres/1313148/
I have my reservations on grants to religious institutions. But in a milieu where waqf/mullas get goverment stipend in other states, better build alternative dharmic claims on public money. Only fear is entrenched interests. Hopefully the mathas can encourage students of their schools and colleges to score the top ranks in public exams.
“Gap with India unbridgeable, warning to Pakistan that it’s in danger of diminishing into a footnote”
Bania gloating at Pakistani misery.
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Pakistan will find a way like it always does. Like us it is a resilient country. Most Indians know it too, we just like pinching Pakistanis.
India was 1.5X Banladesh’s GDP per capita in 2013, Bangladesh matched us in 2018. India is 1.5X Pakistan’s GDP per capita now. Who knows what happens in 5 years? We were dying by the millions just a year and a half ago…
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+1.
India is few steps ahead but we are still not out of the woods with out strategic threat + regime change risks. Need atleast 10 more years of Modi + loyal opposition.
‘Prime Minister Shehbaz Sharif once again reiterates that he’s ready to talk to India on all outstanding issues with sincerity, and that he has asked the UAE to play their role as a brother to Pak and friend to India to help broker talks between India and Pakistan – Significant’
I don’t trust the PKs. Even their self critical analysis is limited to emulating IN foreign policy ie. they somehow want to get back on western gravy train while also being on good terms with CN and maybe RUS. All this while not undertaking any painstaking reforms or change in garrison state mindset.
They will get on the western gravy train regardless of Indian opposition. Taliban is receding in public memory and Islamic terrorism is at its lowest.
The economic demands from Pakistan are mostly modest for Western countries, so that they can paper over the cracks. And the West will provide that so that it does not teeters on the edge, or goes whole hog towards China.
There is no need or want of reforms or change in Pakistan.
Anything Shehbaz Sharif says is meaningless. His days as PM are quite numbered, and his party is absolutely not winning the next elections, that are due this year.
Both IK and the new COAS are hawkish on India. IK may become dovish if Modi provides some relief on Kashmir, but don’t think that is happening so I see current status quo continuing for next 3-5 years.
Ground situation hardly changes regardless. Things will go as they otherwise would have on Indian side, no matter the Pak leadership. India has remains in full anticipation of continued export of islamist terror elements as well as local brainwashing for recruitment. All sides of Pak establishment hate India, no matter what is said otherwise. As economy worsens, terrorism concerns will also worsen.
The concession will be restoration of Kashmir statehood and elections.
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Imran will clean sweep a fair election.
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IMO Modi should maintain course. I like the way things are right now. 2-3 more years of this is good. I hope he remembers Vajpayee’s fate.
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Visiting prophet Isa janmabhoomi later this month, so learning a bit more about Israel/ Palestine conflict.
Establishment of Israel in 1948 has interesting early parallels to India /Pakistan partition in 1947.
Muhammad Ali Jinnah is similar to Ben Gurrion, secular men attempting to create a religious state.
Upper class Muslims from Delhi-Lucknow area being similar to zionists.
The British are still the British.
Imposition of Hebrew in Israel as national language in Jews similar to imposition of Urdu. (Albeit Hebrew more impressive since it was a dead language aside from religious usage, similar to Sanskrit)
The one key difference that lead to different trajectories is the day after Israel declared independence, a bunch of Arab countries attacked Israel from all sides.
In the Indian context Gandhi served as peacemaker and was murdered by Hindu Nationalists (Arab Nationalists / Islamists in Palestine context), and Kashmir dispute.
But there was nothing even close to an all out war by one state solution supporters (Indians / Arabs) on 2 state solution supporters (Pakistanis /Israelis).
Anyways somehow the Arabs managed to loose that war and other subsequent wars. Then the Palestinians tried to take over Jordan, so the other Arabs left the Palestinians hanging.
Israel being victor captured a bunch of land, but doesn’t want too many Arab citizens do a lot of its human rights violations (and there are many) stem from that.
Any reason you are travelling to Israel? Not a common destination for non-Christian Indians, no?
Lots of history aside from religious significance. I also wanted to get a better feel for the palestine israel conflict, and take a dip in the dead sea before it disappears.
So far it is proving to be pretty amazing, not necessarily in a fun way, but in a mind expanding sobering way.
Some quick thoughts:
– Jerusalem and Israel in general is very developed compared to what I expected. Felt a bit strange seeing so many kids around and people in religious garb. (Only rich country with an above replacement TFR).
– Tel Aviv is more expensive than NYC not even joking. I spent $75 on Halva.
– Customer service is ‘rude’ but also ‘hospitable’ not sure how to make sense of it. Lots of bs and haggling both in Israel and Palestine, similar to India. But the people are less deferential and more proud. On Palestine side I was a bit more generous.
– Went to Palestine controlled area (Bethlehem) today and was at the Banksy hotel and getting a tour of the wall / palestinian refugee camps.
News came in that several people were killed in a Jenin gunfight between IDF and palestinian group. Mood turned somber, Palestinians burning tires to protest, Israel shooting tear gas as retaliation, was really intense (might post a video later). Mosque called for a total ‘bandh’. One falafel place near jesus janmabhumi stayed open, and while I eating there about 30 youths in black masks and batons came by and asked him to shutdown.
– Yesterday I visited the Holocaust museum and couldn’t help but see some parallels between Jewish Ghettos in Europe and the Palestinian situation in West Bank.
Palestinian ghettos are still quite nice compared to slums in India. Heck I think better than slum rehab buildings. Which I think is a bit shameful for India.
– Banksy’s walled off hotel / art is nice, but feels really out of place culturally to have that hipster hotel in Palestine. met some welsh guy who has been to palestine 10 times, and just buys banks souvenirs and flips them on ebay.
– Religious architecture (like church of nativity, western wall, al aqsa mosque) is mid imo. The golden dome of rock, and old city as a whole is quite impressive.
– Israel is much more ethnically diverse than I thought, even the jews are all racially diverse.
– I have a worse impression of all Abrahamic faiths than I used to. Islam and Judaism are about as different as two different sects of Vaishanvism (not even Hinduism as a whole) and still become vectors for violence and domination rather than coexisting.
– Hummus and falafel are better and cheaper in Palestine controlled areas. From my exp.
– Tel Aviv has the most vegans per capital in the world, and some innovative good vegan food.
is your work remote, so you can travel? India’s wealthy and middle are a different story. But India’s poor are at the level of subsaharan africa’s lower classes on many different types of indices. So the Palestine comparison point is not surprising at all.
noticed that Partition tends to be more important and significant and talked about in the Pakistan/India aspect than involving us. This too is connected to genotype/phenotype.
Pakistan with the exception of some tribal Pashtun areas and Balochistan that is to say Punjabi Sindhi etc are genetically and linguistically and phenotypically the same as Indians. They have similar genetic makeups of the Zagrosian, AASI, Steppe makeups and looks pretty much the same. They can look across the border to Rajasthan or Gujarat or Punjab or Uttar Pradesh Bihar etc and see people who look the same as them. blah blah Steppe and shit but their overall amounts and makeups are quite similar, BMAC is still just a different source of Zagrosian+some minor Anatolian.
contd.
Hence why Kumail Nanjiani, a native Sindhi ethnic guy gets mistaken as Gujarati and South Indian and literally any brown actor lol
Now contrast that with people from Rajasthan or North India from Uttar Pradesh Bihar Gujarat etc
Guy is Rajasthani yet looks indistinguishable from any Pak. He can look at any Paki and vice versa and they’ll recognize they look similar which is why Partition is more significant on that aside, there’s simply more of a genetic and phenotype connection.
You can also model Bengalis as Telugu_GBR+15% Asian or Bihar/Gangetic/North+15% Asian, or Patel+15% Asian on Vahaduo but the East Eurasian is the significant aspect that marks the differences in bone/facial structure, face shapes and features.
Light or dark, the Asian element is the distuingisher because they tend to be Steppe+Zagros+AASI while us and the Assamese are those 3 plus an additional 13% (Bengali) to 20%(Assamese) Asiatic.
I mean Razib has seen my data file, I was the Rangpur_Bangladesh guy that was modelled and even though I’m a bit more West Eurasian than the other Bengali samples(still cluster with them tho) due to some exotic ancestry way back, phenotypically I look nothing but Bengali or at most Assamese. This is the same for other Bengalis btw (not types like Son Goku that think they’re “Pashtun looking” kek) Fun fact: on HarappaWorld because of this, I can be modelled as 80% Rajasthani+20% Garo. Despite this, I don’t look like em and I as well as others BDs stand out amongst other browns light or dark because of this added admixture. We can be modelled with them North/South/whatever groups but we have a comp which they lack completely. It’s known, maybe more suble than this heavyhanded comment by me but its known
There’s also the linguistic angle, Hindustani languages are mutually intelligible and the cultural practices are the same on both sides with caste based genetic structure which is non existent in BD.
So you are basically saying whatever slight shift Pakistanis have from North+Central India doesn’t have a major effect because the components of that ‘shift’ are the same. Well by that logic even Pashtuns & Tajik are not that different, but taking magnitude of the difference into account your point stands.
You model as “Rajasthani” + Asian? What Rajasthani? There is huge variance in Rajasthan and you cant possibly model as a Rajasthani Jatt or Brahmin + Asian. The reference is probably Rajasthani Dalit, and most Bangladeshis can’t be modelled as Rajasthani Dalit + Asian either. But your sample may be super-shifted.
blah,
Pashtuns are a West Eurasian population. The periphery groups in the tribal Pashtun areas will probably be similar to them. Basic punjabis sindhis no not really. The Eurasian Plate is also important here as a factor which you glossed over. Also, Pashtuns have very significant levels of Anatolian Neolithic Farmer. 15% seems to be the average and significantly higher Caucasus Hunter-Gatherer.
Afghans will be confused for Iranians, for Levantines etc not Indian. Pakistanis like Sindhi ethnic actor like Kumail Nanjiani along with the rest of the Punjabis Sindhis will be seen as other Indian actors which Kumail has even pointed out btw so it’s not just my opinion, he literally gets confused for South Indian looking Kunal Nayyar from the Big Bang theory and Gujarati Teli Kal Penn (aka Kalpen Modi, a generic oil presser last name) that scores 20% or more AASI than Sindhis.
Tajiks? lol. They score barely any amounts of AASI to begin with. They’re a completely different population to begin with. Are you going to count Iranians in this too because they score some amounts of AASI?
On the Rajasthani thing….
I dunno probably a Rajasthani Meena group based on HarappaWorld scores. HarappaWorld is bad with me anyways. Another suggested oracle was Tamil Brahmin+20% Asian which is nonsense. It’s because the Bengali samples on the HarappaWorld average 12 years ago did not have good range. I never said most Bengalis could btw be modelled like this but that we could be modelled as Telugu average or whatever with 15% Asian which is true with Telugu_GBR on G25 and that despite this the difference is huge in phenos because of the East Eurasian which is practically nonexistent.
And yes, that’s what I said. Many Paki groups will score more Zagrosian Farmer than others numerically speaking on an objective basis but it’s not really that big when many Telugus, Tamils, Brahmins etc score 37%-39% Zagrosian compared to their 45% Zagrosian scores. This is why Kumail Nanjiani a Sindhi will look no different from a Gujarati like Kal Penn (Kalpen Modi) even though Kal Penn prolly has nearly double Kumails AASI score.
On a general level, Telugus and other Indos/Paks can be modelled just fine with Zagrosian, AASI and Steppe. Maybe some individuals will have some admix from other groups but we’re talking generally this is just how it is. However for me and other Bangladeshis, it’s just not possible to model us without the Asian which is scored at a significant level at around 12% (I need 17 or more and Razib needs 15% at least).
I’ll say tho that some “Indian Bengalis” look generic Indian. I’m sure you can piece together as to why that is 🙂
REVEALED: At least THIRTEEN Virginia high schools delayed merit awards until after college admissions as state AG says they are specifically targeting Asian American students
Virginia AG Jason Miyares says at least 13 high schools failed to let students know they won merit awards, causing them to miss out on scholarships
The AG has opened an investigation into the issue following allegations that Asian American students were targeted to ensure ‘equal outcomes’
So far, three school districts have been caught in the allegations, including Fairfax, Loudon, and Prince William County Public Schools
In Fairfax, which houses one of the best-scoring high schools in the nation, officials hired an equity consultant at $450,000
Miyares said the goal of the consultant was to ensure ‘equal outcomes no matter what,’ which adversely affected high-achieving Asian American students https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11644847/At-THIRTEEN-Virginia-high-schools-delayed-merit-awards-targeting-Asian-American-students.html
Support the left all the time for status reasons but whenever you are personally harmed(crime and education), come crying to the right. Such is the tale of us, middle class and above Asian Americans.
“Islamophobia” no longer seems to have the same salience among liberals as it used to. Even Muslim groups are divided. The Muslim Students Association was the reason that the professor’s contract was not renewed. But the Council of American-Islamic Relations(CAIR), white liberals go-to organization for all Muslim topics went from condemning the professor to now supporting her rights.
During Trump years, I don’t think a good liberal professor would have even dared to show a picture of Muhammad and if someone did all Muslim and liberal groups would have been united in their condemnation. But even the university administration now admits it made a mistake. I think if a professor in another university shows Muhammad’s image, they won’t be blindly thrown under the bus like this one was.
Also, don’t think Western liberals will keep sucking up to Muslims. White liberals love “victims”, i.e people who are doing worse than them. This is why they love blacks and Hispanics. But Muslims in America are doing very well, better than white liberals. And their brethren across the world are not being bombed anymore by the West. This is also the reason why no one other than “Democrats are the real racists” conservatives, care about colleges discriminating Asians.
Another factor in liberal liking of cultures is “does that culture encourage/enable women having multiple partners, either serially or preferably concurrently ?” Aka sexual freedom
The radical Islamic sympathizing and leftist alliance showed cracks in Deerborne Michigan. It will keep happening. Culture is also homegenzing. This is despite globalization having push back. The allure of Western hedonism is tremendous, as is social pressure to conform to certain opinions.
But I think intersectionality will help. Many Muslims are Black and that population is growing. Because of the nature of oppressor-oppresee paradigm race politics and given that Islam has big popularity and a growing population in subsaharan Africa, Western leftists will have a soft spot for it. Again, the issue isn’t Islam. If practiced in a reformed and moderate manner, things are fine. The issue is that the leftist favoritism leads to radical Islam apologetics and sometimes downright tacit support (eg. Ilhan Omar). There is nothing wrong with loving all people (white, black, etc). The issue again is leftist favoritism based on their myopic view of history. This plays out in the current racist affirmative action system in America.
Additionally, in places like the UK, populations like Pakistani Muslims are sufficiently quite socioeconomically backward. The hatred off Christianity as a dominant force will continue by leftists, as issues like abortion still cause sparks with the committed pro-life minority, a group whose birth rate is higher than that of others.
The end result is a likely continuation of the unholy alliance, albeit with breakdown among the most extreme wings, something that escaped the lens of scrutiny because of of more radical “intersectionality.” The aforementioned remains an issue in hypocritical Indian “secular” circles. It is ironic that the supposedly “fascist” Hindu Nats are most pro uniform civil code.
This is stupid, what aint broken will not be reformed, there can be no “moderate islam” without it first being broken intellectually. If there aint no market for it, it wont emerge, only by criticising islam will there be a demand for “moderate islam”. Left in west does the bs game because they have no skin in the game wrt islam in america. Left in India are colonized missionary kids who have only learnt hinduism is evil, they have not yet graduated to criticize religion as universally bad yet. All wokery etc works only for a while until its ur neck on the line and everything changes. Left in China is in absolute power, it therefore sees the world more clearly. It sees that different religions pose different kinds of problems and goes after them unapologetically. Left in west, India is not in power, it needs to make alliances with other ideologies for sake of power.
More often than not, what you speak has to do with what your demography is, and whether you are in power on your own or not. For example, Left govt in kerala is supporting adani port along with rss against church backed protests of local fisherman. U cant explain such alliances , only by the idea of “convergence of interests” can you explain such things.
Stupid people value theory over practicals, legalist bullshit over action. When west(usa) faces real trouble with islam/jihadis/sharia, it will not hesitate to massacre them all if that is what it takes. They see no need for such drastic actions now.West believes in making ideas/rules of the game, expects others to follow them like parrots.
India is about to replace China as the most populous country.
This will inevitably lead to some people saying India needs population control etc.
This is a great opportunity, as you can write-off those people as dumb and stop listening to them.
Indian needed population control back in the 50’s and 60’s. Now its kinda useless, too late anyway.
I don’t really see many Bangladeshis like this much however….
Some random guy at a factory
One can see the difference between islamists, communists and Indians/Hindus.
2 out of 3 had own laws, did not obey western ideas, one preserved demography, other gained technology parity and big economy.
India/Hindus by following all the western laws and norms, have been losing out on demography and also did not develop quickly. And get criticized the most for it unlike either of them. With an internalized colonized idiots. with interference in local politics.This after centuries of colonial conquest that gave advantage to church. While govt pretty much controlled and did not allow Hindu institutions to grow. rss/bjp took advantage of vacuum to grow.
who sets the rules decides who benefit the most. Most of India’s problems could have been solved by having own pro Hindu rules as well.
saw omarali arguing with dhume, my views
” morality is not same as liberalism. one can be moral and conservative.”
1.) There is no evidence liberalism is self sustaining, it might very well be a gateway ideology, in the west, from physics to biology, liberalism allowed left to take over.
2.) In case of India, one has to talk of liberalism vs gdp per capita. .Also Do they expect India to be liberal as the most developed countries?.should one compare India to west as it was 100 yrs ago, or right now?.With west having its own unique history and no evidence that it is replicable
3.) Liberalism has not proven itself to work with islam, Indian history/ demography is different and in India’s case, it has failed. Congress did not fail liberalism in India, liberalism failed congress, because it could not get muslims to introspect due to votebank policies , democracy itself is at loggerheads with liberalism , be it minority or majority.
In India’s case, people gave congress /left long time and saw it failed and replaced it.
4.) All ideas/ideologies should demonstrate their success, in case of liberalism , it must strictly be popperian in nature, that is, intolerant should not be cuddled with and say that is liberalism. Inability to call out islamic fundamentalism is demonstration that liberalism itself is a failure when confronted with it.Liberalism must demonstrate its capacity to win for others to put their trust in it in the first place or you are asking them to risk their security. congress failed non muslim minorities big time in 1947 by outrightly abandoning them.
5.) morality is not same as liberalism. one can be moral and conservative.
6.) western experiments on liberalism comes with the demographic and cultural continuity of christian evangelism refilling the demographic stock and thereby western culture.
And India is not the same, hinduism is not evangelical, it believes in model of reciprocity. which is different liberalism, precisely because it is not evangelical in nature and hence cannot satisfy the demographic anxiety unlike evangelical christianity and the west.
7.) evidence based, empirical evidence based results is the way forward with demonstration along the way.
8. No reason for society has to try to emulate the west , with different history, different religious demographic base. Western liberalism has already been rejected by china, muslim world, why should India and hindus stick to it and not have its own model?.
9.) And also, why the hurry? West itself got to this point, after many twists and turns, and no evidence it is the final state either. And west got here after colonial conquest, violence, massacre on enormous scale. The historical evidence of what it took to get here is not a convincing of others having to emulate any of that at all.
10.) Perhaps, he should consider that the anxiety liberalism causes is what leads for people to seek identitarianism in a big way, left or right and hence leads to many cycles of violence.
11.) There is no evidence of successful non western liberal state with sizeable population anywhere in the world. And even if such a thing were to happen, why the hurry?.
12.) If liberalism is the ultimate ism, they should have no problem to wait for another hundred yrs or more, should they not be more interested in getting there in a safer way as opposed to getting there quickly.
13. Western liberalism came after a period of violence and homogenisation of culture and society and that was not painless.
14. He assumes that somehow there is a way to get to liberalism that is painless and there is no evidence for that.
15. The only nominal non christian population in west were jews and they ended up having their own state.
16. Should people like dhume say upfront, that they intend to risk the lives/security/majority demography of hindus for their liberalism and say it outloud to hindus that, “we have a great moral ideology and we will risk the lives of hindus to achieve it.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiKuxfcSrEU
“some of you may die but it is a sacrifice I am willing to make.”
And yes, the politician who said this was mohandas gandhi.
“Hindus should not harbour anger in their hearts against muslims even if the latter wanted to destroy them, even if the muslims want to kill us all, we should face death bravely. If they established their rule after killing all hindus , we would be ushering in a new world by sacrificing our lives, we shall be ushering in a new era of India”.
17) And no, it is not whataboutry to question, the moral consequences of liberalism. That liberalism failed vs islam is now clear for all to see. That left/liberals turn cowardly and cower is for all to see . So, they have no moral credibility.
18) They should first demonstrate their success first in the 52 islamicate states.Even in the west, christian nationalism has risen as well, with trump.
19) liberalism is the arrogance that the final stage of history has reached.
20.) People to value self preservation is not the same as whataboutry. so, first its followers must first give to hindus their own institutions without govt intererence and allow means for their own self preservation before asking them to risk further when their previous bets of risking their lives has been devastating.
21)To risk others lives and have them massacred and to still ask the same people to risk own lives and liberty is not credible.
22) Tell them to first demonstrate their ability to be honest, first on issue of history. Tell dhume in particular to demonstrate his own honesty by calling out specific historians as frauds and liars first. If he can.
23) IQ and liberality might very well be correlated, it might just be the case that human societies cannot be both stable and liberal until humans become considerably more smarter. In which case, why not just wait for next 200 yrs, without taking risks of major violence?
India’s preference for keeping lines of communications open to Russia despite immense pressure from the West since the 2022 invasion has paid dividends.
Ukraine has burned through all of its own Soviet legacy armaments and additional Soviet legacy matériel shipped from various allies. Now it needs NATO stuff like the Leopards and Germany is rightly circumspect. It will take many years to rebuild NATO tank reserves once lost on the battlefield. And it doesn’t seem like it would even make much of a difference except buying Ukraine a few extra months of time at best. Donbass is the most urbanised, industrialised and fortified region of Ukraine. Once it falls, it’s mostly wide and open fields until you get to larger urban agglomerations.
Meanwhile India has not only managed to get itself cheap oil, I suspect it could also begin to get discounts on arms shipments from Russia in the coming years as sanctions will bite and the Russians need income streams.
One thing this war has shown is that a decent air defence is incredibly effective at shutting down the sky for enemy aircraft. Russia has better air defence capabilities than the West. The hypersonic Kinzhal missile cannot be defended against at all, and I suspect that it will show up in India under the name Brahmos-2. The West doesn’t even have any hypersonic missiles of its own.
If India continues to play its cards this well, then I may have to seriously upgrade my projections for when India will start to become a serious global power.
Lot of rich folks want to go back to world created in 1979 ie. US china rapprochement.
If India continues to play its cards this well, then I may have to seriously upgrade my projections for when India will start to become a serious global power.
Also seriously upgrade projections of European economy, specially that of Germany.
Germany is being set up to be the fall guy when Ukraine fails. The US and others will point fingers and claim the cause was lost because Germany did not provide Leopard Tanks.
“The Uri cross-border strike and then the Balakot bombing changed the rules. Once India demonstrated that it would retaliate and not bother about the fear of escalation, nuclear or not, that bluff was called. For Pakistan, this completed its irrelevance. ”
I would disagree a bit. Neither Uri or Balakot change much on the ground. This options were provided to the previous govts and they didn’t take it (for obvious reasons). One could argue that India was even far stronger footing (2006-2012 or so) and Pakistan was on weaker one. India knew that there was a point below which wars wouldn’t trigger. Something Pakistan tried to do with Gibraltar and Kargil.
Also Pakistan irrelevance or relevance has never been due to India. Its external factors (and internal Imran Khan factors) which has somewhat driven Pakistan economy to the mud, which can and may change as swiftly as they come.
So its better for India to not wade into stuff which it cannot really control.
The reduced frequency of attacks would indicate that retaliation has worked to some extent. IMHO This change is entirely due to modi.
“So it’s better for India to not wade into stuff which it cannot really control.”
I agree we should leave PK to its own devices. Not sure if you are also saying we should not retaliate for any attacks.
Modi has tried to reach out to PK – twice! – and got burned both times. I don’t think he will take the bait a third time.
Moreover, Pakistan’s current govt is weak and lacks popular legitimacy. So it makes no sense to engage now.
The sudden olive branch should be seen in the context of them being on the brink of default. To calm the LoC would be in their narrow self-interest, as it would ease pressure on military expenditures. It would also be a way for the civilian govt to regain a better footing vis-a-vis the army, which uses the conflict with India as a tool to get more funds.
It makes more sense for India to instead force Pakistan into higher spending, like the US did during the 1980s against the former Soviet Union.
India has no money to increase spending. Increase budget by even 10 billion and it is guaranteed it will all be spent in pensions, salaries, more soldiers …
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Indian procurement is peak babu-dom. Latest example is the self propelled howitzers. After decades long process Israel’s ATHOS won with a absurdly low price offer which IMO should have been accepted. Some nautanki, buy indigenous, … contract cancelled. Folks said buy modernized Bofors variant Dhanush, DRDO+Tata+Kalyani’s big ATAGS howitzer…
Wasted many years, OFB can’t produce anything, ATAGS in perpetual trials phase…
Now Army issues new requirements to select ATHOS. New controversy… cycle continues, decades get wasted like this.
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IMO India should exercise clause for additional rafales ASAP. Big aircraft deal won’t happen, India has no money. But we will kill time…
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One thing I love about working in America is decisiveness. Right or wrong people decide things and move on… Indian defense bureaucracy is always trishanku…
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Peace between India and Pakistan means India will make a lot of money from Pakistan like it does from Bangladesh. It is a prospect Pakistanis don’t like.
India will never offer any real concessions on Kashmir. Pakistan will not hand over POK in talks. The soft people in both countries do endless empty talk in the hope that ‘mutually beneficial’ trade happens.
People to people connection is BS too. Indians don’t like Pakistan, Pakistanis don’t like India… it is no Nepal, this P2P nice-ness is superficial.
Tourism potential beyond eating food in Lahore is over-rated. There is nothing in Pakistan the likes of which Indians can’t find in India itself. India does have Kerala, Manipur, Lakshdeep, Andaman, Hampi, Banaras, Agra-Sikri, Orccha, Jaipur, …
One reason India had historically feted Pakistan is because it fears US, UK, and China gaining a foothold. Indians see themselves as a China-US tier power in the future.
Bangladesh plays this game well. Sri Lanka had over reached.
Old school Indian politicians like Vajpayee’s speeches on ‘samrajyavaad ka virodh’, trying to make SAARC work etc were them trying to avoid Indian subcontinent from being colonized by China and the US. All this Pakistani ‘geostrategic’ over-smartness from Kargil to militancy to Si-paiik to American coalition support fund has made India completely heartless and realistic.
Pakistan will buttfuck India at first opportunity, India will do the same but when results are more predictable. Bangladesh (for now) is the neighbor we wanted in Pakistan.
As per Konstantin, Apparently ~400 ppl were arrested for posting offensive things online in RUS in 2018. The corresponding figure in UK was ~3300. https://mobile.twitter.com/cybersygh/status/1616568318793744387
And these folks lecture the world about FoS with their democracy indices .
Most indexes published by “think” tanks are fake but the democracy one takes the cake. Midwits worlwide fall for it. Foreign libs fall for it because “it can’t be propaganda, look the US is also ranked low”. And the American libs receive the perfect ammunition against their political enemies(“we need to save our democracy”). Western libs get to kill two birds with one stone.
make own rankings
24) The final one on liberalism, in over 70 yrs, India does not even have common law. This is not a failure of congress, it is evidence of how islamism defeated liberalism through subversion of democracy. That it is not possible to get muslim vote while at same time supporting reform and liberalism with respect to their faith.
I remember telling gaurav, that liberalism is about normalizing deviancy. I want an acknowledgement, better cash in all the checks, who knows about tomorrow.
Indians do not have the same history as the British. How realistic is it to expect India to have evolved a common law when India has not had a strong state as long as Britain? Has not India evolved a common law because of Islamism or because of caste? Hindu nationalists claim to be fighting the consequences of the slavery of colonialism but they use Western values and standards to judge India.
west was influenced by china as well. Idiots think of values/ etc, reality is guns and money. Rise of nation states was certain, castes cannot rise to that level because it is diffused across the country, its very local. Because it cannot scale . India has historically had value for diversity of ideas, buddhism,jainism,chavarka and many sects within hinduism as well. There was always value for diversity of ideas. Infact in south, many sudra castes like reddy were declared sat shudras, sudras with kshatriya quality. Same was case with shivaji. There was atleast one book or attempt declaring that there were only 2 castes in kalyug, brahmins and sudras, others were eliminated or corrupted beyond measure. Industrialisation would have destroyed a lot of these things but under british that did not happen. Infact parliamentary system along with poor economy gave a greater fillip to caste. In presidential system, the requirement of making sure every vote counts would have consolidated things even better. west and colonized morons think others are incapable of learning. The requirements of strength and commerce would have forced these things by itself. When one reads works of dharmapal, you realize that education for sudras in all secular subjects were already being taught. Different states would have developed at different pace , some states in south were developing faster as well. West should decide on this thing, either admit there is no such thing as reasoning in social domain and its all theology or admit that others are capable of reasoning and learning. Racism really is the belief that others cannot reason and learn and only one can learn. The problem was not of that, the problem was the pace of learning, considering islamic bullshit system systematically destroyed learning systems in India while europe was safe from cavalry raiding armies. And christianity got its ass kicked every where else, and got wiped out from middleeast and got byzantine civilization destroyed. Infact, even nato lost to islamists in 21st century with all the advanced weapons. Given this, Its clear that we endured a much harder challenge and still managed to defeat mughals, pakistan/ saudi arabia, islamists in modern world is entirely creation of british bastards.
Japan is a good example of how quickly they adapted, ottoman empire as well, same with thailand.China too adapted , I debated that british stooge historian parsi bootlicker and got him to admit defeat that indeed different parts of India would indeed have industrialized and developed differently thereby defeating him.
The exception to all this so far is islam and that is due to sharia. India post industrialization would have given enormous power to sudra castes in a big way because they are the majority. Guns and numbers makes all the difference in the world. If anything, having british most probably saved brahmins from a french style revolution. There was no way to save caste hierarchy once guns and industrialisation enters the picture.competition, guns and industrialization is a forcing function on all “values” that was going to emerge.
Please give an example of an OBC revolt in India before the arrival of the British? In Japan and China the educated class embraced change and adopted Western ways. In India, with a few exceptions, Brahmins and the educated class have tried to monopolize the benefits of modernization for themselves. The money spent on primary education, the opposition to teaching the English language in government schools etc shows the difference between Japan/China and India.
The british helped brahmins the most, created brahmin dominated polity through congress and with greater value for education over industry and commerce. The obc revolution in India started only more recently from 1991, much earlier in tamil nadu, in Andhra pradesh, reddys are a powerful community, India right now is infact in a obc revolution, modi himself is an obc.delay in industrialization due to british hurt them more.
Many successful business groups in India now are not brahmins, many come from trader castes. Delayed industrialization , exploitation by british cut down the power of obc/sc/st relatively even more and they accentuated the power of brahmins through education , bookish learning more suited to them than that of industry and commerce. Brahmins were by far THE biggest beneficiaries of british.By comparison , an increasingly Industrializing India would have cut their power and prestige to size . The biggest change of Industrialization is that the commercial/trading communities and manufacturing and product creating communities gained greater power over the martial and priestly communities. Even under british, the zoroastrian community which was preferred by british gained the most through industry, they have never had such distinction or prominence in India’s history.
In a way, the delay in opening up of India to market economy reforms was obstructed by the brahmin dominated congress and marxists the most under guise of exploitation but perhaps more clearly it would have meant their own relative decline in polity in their own respective parties.
Looks like the big guns of the Capitalist establishment WSJ (Wall Street Journal) have decided to throw Big Pharma under the bus. (Is Biden and Ukraine next ?).
Fake news and conspiracy theories getting validated.
As I keep saying it really does not matter, the Big Pharma go a “Hail Mary, Get out of Jail Free pass”. That in itself should have been a huge red flag. Anyway Big Pharma is not liable for scam, negligence or whatever.
In my opinion, fear and the wish to believe prevented healthy skepticism and caution among the experts. They signed on carte blanche the whole untested mRNA vaccines without FACT CHECKING or questioning the data or manufacturer reports
In retrospect, the issue was staring in our (at least mine) faces. Much like the flu, there can be no one single bullet, or vaccine. The virus mutates and has variants faster than vaccines can be produce. Compounding the problem is the issue of long term side of effects untested mRNA vaccine.
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Wall Street Journal editorial board member Allysia Finley has taken a flamethrower to vaccine makers over their “deceptive” campaign for bivalent Covid boosters, and slams several federal agencies for taking “the unprecedented step of ordering vaccine makers to produce them and recommending them without data supporting their safety or efficacy.”
Addendum
I realized that the big Honchos dont mind the big companies making money off the little people. e.g. MIC from tax payer funded wars in other countries, Opioid sales to druggies by the Sacklers/Purdue Pharma (a minor slap on the wrist). However, they do take issue when they too get taken for a ride, loose money or lives of they and theirs. eg Enron and Madoff for example.
So there is still hope, Pfizer and some in the CDC (eg Fauci will be made to walk the plank regardless of the “Get out of Jail card”
Likely fiction. But I found the writing style enjoyable
Company catered lunches, stocked fridges, … situation is very good.
‘You compensate by calling him behenchod … a racist joke and you stop talking.’
This does happen to some, I am from UP, I can never give up Hindi expletives. I like all NIs have pretty racist jokes in private.
Indians hike a lot. Bay Area and Seattle have insanely beautiful hikes. Presidio, Lands End, Diablo, Muirwood, Caramel, S Cruz,…
I only get recruitment emails from ‘consultancy’ companies, some random Indian-Pakistani recruiters. Never been contacted by a big shot.
‘The CEO mentions cost-cutting at the All Hands but assures that all the numbers are up and to the right.’
This is now everywhere except civil engineering. The worst is automobile industry. So many Indian mechanical engineering guys working like as contractual slaves in Midwest for Ford, GM, and their OEMs…, fuck car companies.
‘He tells you he’s quitting to do his own startup in India.’
Everyone talks, no one leaves.
Apparently, the man is a Yadav. It’s funny, they met on some online game called LUDO.
More seriously, given how far down the drain Pakistan is going, I wouldn’t be surprised to see more of these stories popping up. Women will often use transnational marriage as a pathway to socio-economic emigration (“import brides”), which is obviously much harder for men.
If India legalizes gay marriage, this won’t be a problem!
All for “political correctness.” Radical left leaves radical Islam unabated.
# qurashi,
pl. give us your take on the exact situation in pak. i cannot believe our channels.
Game of thrones going on between the political and military elite, while the economy is reeling due to uncertainty and instability. PTI is polling at around 50% nationwide, which is 2/3rds majority territory. PMLN basically knows at this point that they are getting wiped out in any election so they are stubbornly holding onto power with the help of the generals. Their incompetence and nepotism is destroying the economy, but they continue to hang on with the help of GHQ.
Generals don’t want an election either because they fear IK back as PM will wreak vengeance against them and pull them down a notch below.
This is election year, but good chance we don’t see elections happening, since the political and military elite is trying everything it can to hold onto power.. but its slipping away every passing day. They might try to heavily rig elections, but not that easy to do this in Punjab now tbh.
The economic trajectory can be reversed by a strong government and turnaround can happen within a year (barring any global recession). But political stability is not on the cards.
I don’t know what Indian channels are reporting, but its probably even more doom/gloom scenario.
I think you underestimate the army power to rig elections.
If they can make 30 seat PTI turn into 140 odd party, surely they can ‘help’ PMLN into around about 100 party. And once that’s done, it will depend upon Sindh and Independents.
Direct rigging is still relatively rare in general elections under civilian setup. Army did not rig 2018, they only rolled out the red carpet for PTI after disqualifying Nawaz and filling PTI with electable politicians, directing media and business interests to support PTI.
The 2018 results were no surprise though, PMLN’s performance was abysmal from 2013-2018, and PTI was polling higher before the elections. It’s just a myth by Pak libbus and Sharif apologists that PTI had no mandate in 2018 – they had the biggest mandate.
However this time, none of those shenanigans will work.. people associate the economic problems and inflation directly with the army’s meddling, and PML is seen as the establishment’s party in any future election. And this is why they don’t want an election, they know they cannot easily rig it and they know they cannot politick their way out of this mess. Higher turnouts negate any chance of rigging. If rigging happens against PTI, it will be due to PTI’s own incompetence and in organization for failing to bring their voters out enmasse.
Not sure i agree with 2018 elections analysis. Though i agree that saying PTI had no mandate in 2018 is wrong. I don’t think Govt performance and all matter as much as folks make it out to be, whether its India or Pakistan.
PMLN had a disqualified Shariff, but in a normal elections (without army prodding the electable to jump ship) , i would say that PTI and PMLN would have had a similar seat tally. Something which happened in Punjab local elections, held the same time.
This time around PTI is the front runner, army might help PMLN bring them down a notch, and once that happens ultimately that would benefit the army, who can then push the electable/independents to whoever they think is amiable.
It’s first past the post system, so winner takes all. In 2013, PMLN in Punjab got 40% of the votes, but 90% of the seats. So election results are based on weakness of opposition just as it does on a party’s own strength. in 2013, opposition in Punjab was divided between PPP and PTI allowing PML to sweep. In 2018, PPP was wiped out of Punjab and PTI ate their cake.
PMLN has no votebank outside Punjab. They are non existent in Sindh, KP, Baluchistan. Their only route to a federal government is through winning massively in Punjab and then allying with some small regional parties. Punjab has turned against them, and they are not coming back in government. There is lot of dissent in the party itself now as they see writing on the wall.
5 million voters turn 18 every year in Pakistan, and since 2018, that’s 25 million. Almost all of them support PTI, and even if 20% of them turnout to vote PTI, that’s 5 million free votes for IK over 2018.
Either ways, I don’t think much would change. It boils down to this: Habibs will not let automobile sector open up, Riyaz got Miftah removed for real estate taxation, electricity will always cost more money than Ind/Ban, Pakistani real estate is overpriced, talented Pakistanis will go abroad, Pakistani startups have only ever sunk VC money… none of this will change short term.
I don’t think Pakistan is sinking. They will do just fine. They just like hogging international attention by humiliating their own country for petty gains.
I don’t get why Pak ‘libs’ hate IK so much? He did no one any harm. He is a better man than the feudal of Sindh who own 10s of thousands of acres, or ‘chor’ industrialists of Punjab who rose with corruption, sugar subsidies, or scrap steel mafia. Sharad Pawar is 10x more honest than Sharifs, Jyotiraditya, the descendant of Mahadji himself, has 100x less land than Khars or Bhutto. Pakistani ‘libs’ sure love their chains.
Cultural wars are being fought across national boundaries, they see him as their Donald Trump.
none of this will change short term:
I do not think Pakistan can scale into IT just yet, Lucknow or Jaipur or maybe even Dhaka will have it’s IT people before Pakistan. Young Pakistanis underestimate the effort involved (which can be a good thing).
I don’t think Pharma will ever happen in Pakistan. India set up colleges decades ago and we are still stuck cooking generic stuff that sells for 20 cents.
These things will not change no matter who comes to power. Pakistan will have to find it’s own niches.
Rare earth extraction in Afghanistan and Balochistan could have been something but Pakistanis are utterly inept at mining too.
They have so much good land but can’t even grow enough food! Pakistan is a tragicomedy all around, and even 10 IKs can’t fix it, but at least he is relatively honest.
Next ten years: I see majority of their talented people leaving for west and ME.
>I don’t get why Pak ‘libs’ hate IK so much? He did no one any harm.
Pak libs are part of status quo and feel threatened when some one from outside or inside threatens to shake the system. LUMS is filled with liberals and marxists that are sons and daughters of top bureaucrats, industrialists in bed with the political and military elite. They all intermarry and hold top positions of power, receive patronage, good jobs in government or media. They don’t want some guy to seize power who is going to rock the boat.
Waise housing societies badi sahi banate hain Pakistani. Bahria town, DHA, … remind me of Chandigarh, and better parts of Noida.
4-5K sqft ka ghar, Honda City car, 2 naukar, 1 guard, badhiya jogging park, chota-mota export ka vyapaar, ek-aadh petrol pump, … ladke ko Doctor-ee karwa ke ek-tho aspatal khulwa do, Bitiya ko LUMS mein padha ke kisi civil servant se biyaah do… Life chill hai…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEW8T7VUqW4
I feel like every Pakistani I meet online is from this class of people. Ones is school were even richer. Kuch saale Amreeka aake pehli bar train/Grey-hound mein baithe the, yahan saala 20 ke baad hawai-jahaj ki bohni ho paayi…
A few months in the US, the first time I met middle class Pakistani 7-11/Miraj-grocery/Khushbu-boutique/Mahreen-beauty-parlor type crowd, I felt so happy ki sahi hai, inka bhi chutiya kata hai…
Lets see what happens in next election. I will still say the Punjab pie will be cut somewhere around the middle or lets say 60-40 b/w PTI and PMLN. And considering that Sindh/Karachi will lean PPP , it will difficult for Imran to get back to power. And even if he still does, he will hamstrung in mostly the same way, he was this time around as well.
Punjab has 150 general seats of the 272. 60% of 150 = 90
90 from Punjab, 35 from KPK/FATA, 15 from Karachi would give PTI >50% of the seats in NA, so a majority government on its own.
And I think PTI is on track to win 115+ seats in Punjab.
Qureshi @,
What and How would things be different if IK had managed to remain in power? Iirc Forex reserves weren’t that great to begin with.
If bajwa and pmln had let IK stay in power then IK would have been rightly held responsible but such are strategic geniuses in khaki.
‘such are strategic geniuses in khaki’
If he was in power he would have let Faiz be chief and sacked the now chief Munir who had caught Peerni red handed.
If Munir lets IK win, then Khakis will show their true genius. As usual I am with Saurav on this one. But I guess Qureshi knows better.
@bhumiputra
The economy would have been stable, IMF program would have been seen through, Pakistan would have bought Russian oil last year not right now and rupee would not have depreciated like it did right now, inflation would have been much less.
However PTI would have lost 2023 elections since their overall 5 year performance would have been quite mediocre.
‘#Bangladesh paying price of fluffing growth by subsidies. After 50% hike in petrol, gas for industry & power costlier by 150-180%. 70% electricity from gas. This is beginning. Banks empty. Forex shortage. Huge debt. Missing #Indian economists who wr floored by BD numbers in 2020.’
As the saying goes, Bangladesh got the economy, WB was left with their economists
Just a closing note for
@J Khan @ Qureshi
You skipped over the crux of my statement
There is a ‘continuum’ all over India. You comparing Tamil Nadu to Punjab just shows how you want to gloss over this fact.
Kashmir to Punjab to Haryana to Rajasthan to UP to Gujarat……to Andhra, Telangana. It’s all a solid continuum.
And why would you not compare a more representative image, by considering the averages. Should Brahmins be considered the Bihari representative group?
Actually let’s go with what you propose. A Yusafzai Pashtun is a lot different considering they are neighbours of Punjabi Awans. And this is your muh Gandharan unity region.
Pathetic bringing up some admixed Iranics with an Iranic identity.
Seraiki & Sindhis break off with Southern Pashtuns & Baloch, and the distances are real big considering these are immediate neighbour populations. It’s stark. Even the Dard-like Pashtuns break off with Azad Kashmiri types. You are overlooking actual neighbouring populations for some random intermediates (even they don’t transition smoothly)
South Chinese are closer to Southeast Asians. Extreme North ones to Koreans. What matters is that it’s all in a cline. You can see the same in India, except with stark break-offs & gaps, which further cements the nation state’s basis. And over this you have cultural, linguistic, religious & social relations. You lot are arguing just to cope at this point.
Why do Punjabis & Tamils have huge non-geographical internal variation in its population but not Pashtuns? Why do you have Oil-pressing castes, scavenger communities? The differences are deeply rooted. East Pakistan is a part of the Indian civilization. It’s that simple.
You share so much more with immediate east than west.
The whole basis of your ‘nation’ falters on this ground.
Lmfao at the sem2sem accusations. I am a Rajasthani, and this Indic continuum I am talking about includes Southern reaches, Bengal, Nepal etc. Sure go on and try accusing me of inferiority complex. I am just stating an objective fact. I would rather not want to have much to do with the modern nation state of yours. In case you did not know, Hindu/Sikh counterparts of Punjabi Muslims are a lot more succesful & progressive. This gap will only increase, for overall India & Pakistan
“but but you want my women reee” This is your remaining argument. You can’t be serious.
@Blah
I was surprised myself that the genetic gap between Yusufzai Pashtun and Awan or Gujjars is quite noticeable. Like pretty sharp.
And the gap between tribal area Pashtuns and Punjabis in general is very big (not merely noticable and sharp, but actually large).
Also, people seem to forget that many Afghan Tajiks are very similar to all three types of Pashtuns (steppe rich, Iranic Central Asian-like central Pashtuns; Near Eastern rich Iranian Plateau-like southern Pashtuns; and the IVC-skewed northern Pashtuns).
For all three Pashtun groups, there are equivalent Afghan Tajiks just like them. Panjsheri and Kapisa Tajiks are like northeastern Pashtuns; some Tajiks in Paktia and Ghazni resemble central Pashtuns; the Tajiks of Kandahar resemble southern Pashtuns.
On top of that, Iranians from the east of that country grade seamlessly into the Pashtun cline. And in Tajikistan, the Pamiri Iranian peoples grade seamlessly into the Pashtun cline. So there’s a genetic cluster that includes Pamiri Tajiks, eastern Iranians, Afghan Tajiks (the ones who aren’t heavily East Asian-admixed), and all the tribal Pashtuns from Kandahar to Swat. There are clines in that cluster (eastern Persians in Iran are the most Near Eastern; Pamiri speakers are the most steppe/ancient European-skewed; northeastern Pashtuns are the most Indian-skewed), but the cluster includes pops that grade seamlessly into each other, and are genetically bracketed off from neighboring non-Iranic pops.
And like you’re saying, Indians and eastern Pakistanis are part of their own separate cluster, with their own clines.
The unity of India really is undeniable, and it includes Gandaharan Indians like the Hindkowan.
The Awans claim to be of Arabic-origins. Can you detect any Arabic genes by looking at their profile?
someone gets it.
And just to be clear I am not denying the differences within.
Just now you have seen me debate with that bangladeshi(wedifferent) guy about how Punjabis & Tamils are not the same.
There are a lot of differences which make absolute sense. All of such a widespread region can’t be exactly the same.
And You can argue about how close you feel to other sub-regions, it won’t change the fact that there is a common thread binding all of them.
Also Razib is lying about Afghans not being in a cline with Iranians to make Indians happy. Tajiks are as far from an Iranian_Fars as I (Gujjar) am from an Indian Gujarati. So if Punjabi-Gujarati is a cline, so is Tajik-Iranian!
Here are the distances:
Distance to: Gujar_Pakistan
0.09788674 Gujarati
Distance to: Tajik_Rushan
0.09994523 Iranian_Fars
Very disappointed Razib.
Let go brother. Any amount of strawmanning won’t prove your point.
First of all Gujarati & Punjabi districts are not immediate neighbours.
Second of all, as I have already mentioned, and as you have already conveniently ignored, you can’t just take any group to compare Indian subregions. Punjabi Gujjar will be much closer to certain Gujarati castes than others. Just take something representative, or else you will keep coping with this bs argument.
“UP Jat are closer to Afghan Pashtun than Bihari Dalit, hence UPBihar are not a continuum but UP-Afghanistan are” slightly exaggerated but this is basically your argument which you are trying to use in a mocking manner, but trust me its not working.
Keep fighting for your delusional idea of Pakistan. Pak Pashtuns, Baloch & Punjabis-Sindhis. They have nothing in common that binds them in a way that they can be a single state, seperate from respective regions in the east & west. Linguistics? NO. Genetics? NO. Religious history? NO
And dont bring that bs again ‘they are close’. of course they are neighbours! But what’s the binding factor please enlighten us.
And I don’t know why you haven’t answered that question. Why do Punjabis have caste structuring which is common to each Indian region. Tamil Nadu, Orissa the list goes on. Why do you have weaver caste in Punjabi society?
Why don’t Pashtuns have it. Even Society structures? NO there is no commonality.
“They have nothing in common that binds them in a way that they can be a single state”
Lol this guy needs to visit Pakistan sometime. He is too high on the ”indian civilization” theme. Trying to convince us that Punjabis/Pasthuns have less in common that Punjabis and Tamils or Sindhis & Baluch (who literally speak the same language and live in the same land) have less in common than say Sindhis & Bengalis. It’s absolutely hilarious.
i don’t even have to state that punjabis & kpk people are close. they are literally next to each other. And ofcourse they are closer to each other than say central & south Indians. This is not something that is going your way though, pakistan still has no civilizational basis. And India has a continuum. (by your logic no nation state can exist because border people are quite close to each other in some aspects. but the common thread, mostly language determines the larger identification. India has such strong markers that there is a lot more than linguistics that can be used)
you still havent answered how they are closer to each other than regions to the east (for punjab) & west (for kpk)
i know why. Because you can’t.
India has. I can’t see any caste structuring in non-Indian populations, and oh yes Punjabis do show it. It’s deeply rooted. Accept it. move on. Other linguistic,religious, genetic blah blah points just cement it.
I have no intention of getting into this ridiculous argument again. You are free to cook up whatever arbitrary basis you want to justify the British creation you live in. A modern nation state exists because it can, by force.
All I am pointing out that we are not sem2sem. A Punjabi and a Tamil or a Bengali have very little in common. They dont have the same culture, they don’t follow the same religion, they speak different languages, they don’t have the same diet, they don’t even look the same, they celebrate different festivals. 1971 made this very clear, but some Indians still sticking to this shit theory like flies on feces.
Just learn to accept the existence of Pakistan, its going to be good for everyone. Your utopian idea of this Indian civilisation based on the caste system cannot handle 200 million Muslims, I doubt you can handle 400 million more.
I just don’t understand how our neighbours are so adamant on the fact that there is no indic civilizational structure.
Linguistics+Society+Religion+Culture+Genetics together show such a strong continuum in the India-EastPak-Bangladesh-Nepal area that all we can do is laugh at this delusion of theirs
Ignoring all of the above & only focusing on genetics, they use jati-induced differences (which ironically is a feature of Indian society) to conveniently compare sub-regions to their own biases. Sorry but it doesnt prove anything. Also being closer to your immediate neighbour rather than other Indian regions 1000km away doesn’t prove anything either.
You overlap highly with Haryana/Rajasthan in east, but not with Pashtuns in the west. Judging with the same distances either side, Pashtuns a lot different. Even Genetics don’t support their delusion. Don’t get me started on other points.
last couple days feels like the good ol days.
thank me for it @warlock
Red Rain literally tastes like Red Bull but is cheaper by the can even though there’s more Red Bull per can than Red Rain per can wtf is it just the marketing
Hindenburg Research
Adani Group: How The World’s 3rd Richest Man Is Pulling The Largest Con In Corporate History
Today we reveal the findings of our 2-year investigation, presenting evidence that the INR 17.8 trillion (U.S. $218 billion) Indian conglomerate Adani Group has engaged in a brazen stock manipulation and accounting fraud scheme over the course of decades.
Gautam Adani, Founder and Chairman of the Adani Group, has amassed a net worth of roughly $120 billion, adding over $100 billion in the past 3 years largely through stock price appreciation in the group’s 7 key listed companies, which have spiked an average of 819% in that period.
Our research involved speaking with dozens of individuals, including former senior executives of the Adani Group, reviewing thousands of documents, and conducting diligence site visits in almost half a dozen countries.
Even if you ignore the findings of our investigation and take the financials of Adani Group at face value, its 7 key listed companies have 85% downside purely on a fundamental basis owing to sky-high valuations.
“The independent auditor for Adani Enterprises and Adani Total Gas is a tiny firm called Shah Dhandharia. Shah Dhandharia seems to have no current website. Historical archives of its website show that it had only 4 partners and 11 employees. Records show it pays INR 32,000 (U.S. $435 in 2021) in monthly office rent. The only other listed entity we found that it audits has a market capitalization of about INR 640 million (U.S. $7.8 million).”
Lmao what the hell? Top members of the Modi government must be involved in the fraud for this to go on without any scrutiny by the Indian regulators.
-831x P/E ratio for Adani Total Gas. Stock gained by 2121% over the last 3 years.
-A legal structure that would make Enron executives blush
-Of the four partners who signed off the Adani audit, three were less than 28 years old.
Thanks for posting this @Roy. And an amazing work done by Hindenburg Research.
Razib’s recent tweet reminded me of this good post of his.
blah “First of all Gujarati & Punjabi districts are not immediate neighbours.”
Tajikstanis and Iranian_Fars are not immediate neighbor either.
Dushanbe to Shiraz (Fars) direct distance: 1791 km
Lahore to Ahmedabad direct distance: 963 km
How much more will you beg to be one of us? By the way send me your G25 coordinates, since you’re the one making all these tall claims I need to show how far you are from us. Don’t make excuses now.
Depends what groups are compares. But you will gloss over and disown any, including significant minorities, that don’t fit your narrative. The Lahore sample is just as Pak Punjabi as an Indian Gujarati Lohana or Brahmin is Gujarati.
Same way Punjabiyat supremacist crowd likes to ignore the 30-35% dalit population of Punjab. Pak nationalists also hate that Gujaratis tend to have a good amount of Indus across the board and Gujarat is in Indus Valley maps. They want a certain narrative of separateness.
“XYZ is not a monolith” is a joke of an argument to make constantly. Even identical twins are different. So yeah, keep doing it. It’s not particularly tough to pull of any in circumstance.
@thewarlock
Lohanas are as Gujarati as I am, lol. Their genetic profile is similar to Bhatias, and close to Aroras and Khatris. I’m sure you understand what that indicates.
Does someone became native of a place if they stayed long enough? Can Parsis be called Gujarati or Marathi?
Also I don’t understand why you Jains toe the Brahmin/Hindutva supremacist line. I being a Pakistani Muslim am not part of their hierarchy, you and your loved ones are. If you converted to Muslim every Muslim in your local mosque would hug you and invite you to be part of their circle. If you converted to Brahmin.. well you can’t. The hatred is visceral, they will never accept you, or your children, or any of your descendent into their community till the end of time. What exactly is your problem? Do you non-Brahmins have no sense of dignity?
Lohanas are as Gujarati as I am, lol. Their genetic profile is similar to Bhatias, and close to Aroras and Khatris. I’m sure you understand what that indicates.
sindhi lohannas yes. guj lohannas, no. we have the data
> Says he doesn’t understand
> Continues talking
lol we literally have intermarried in my family with Brahmins (not just gujarati ones), patels, reddys, kasyasthas, and lohanas without issue. This Brahmin community not accepting Jains nonsense is a total farce.
“Intercaste marriage will get rid of caste” is the biggest fraud being imposed upon you non-Brahmin commoners.
Intercaste marriage is as old as the Vedas itself. The Vedas are full of intercaste marriage, with intercaste marriage leading to numerous more castes, not less castes.
The lowest caste in the Vedas are Chandalas, the union of Brahmin woman and non-Brahmin man. They are mentioned as the lowest of the low, the lowest among Dalits. Brahmins have always looked down on Brahmin marriages with non-Brahmins.
thewarlock the children from these marriages will not be accepted as Brahmins. You have no idea how most Brahmins look down on these marriages, and certainly it will not destroy Brahmins, because the children will not be accepted into Brahmin community.
Lmfao at J Khan. Oldest inhabitants? Everyone is mixed. What can you prove? What’s the red line someone becomes
native. You want some AASI cutoff? IVC cutoff? Story of this family moving or that? Nothing you say makes sense. We all have the three components. Everyone moves around. Why are you assuming the genders of the the intercaste pairings? Lol, regardless, your views are heavily biased.
You take Hinduism like it’s some hyper doctrinal faith like your and jump to most extreme interpretations. That’s just bad motivated reasoning or deep ignornace. You have 0 clue of ground area reality. I know why my family members had to flee their Karachi businesses in partition. My great aunt was hidden in a raincoat to flee. It sure as hell wasn’t Brahmin mobs.
Lmfao, keep “lower dharmics.” LOL please. A greater proportion of Gulf Arabs likely see you as a “lower Muslim” than modern Brahmin see me as a lower anything. Much of S Asia has dalit violence issues. Beyond that, this upper lower crap isn’t present like you want to believe. It’s just tribal level shit of everyone competing for top level and thinking they deserve to be there. Even that is dying in urban areas.
Anyway, at this point, engaging is useless. You are just arguing in bad faith.
By the way Blah, what is this “common thread” you speak of that only British empire territories in South Asia shares but absent in neighboring countries?
Can you be very specific? Like 1 example?
The common thread they speak of is in the past, its the ancient Aryan cultural/religious/linguistic heritage. They want you to acknowledge some kind of Aryan Solidarity, that’s it. They just don’t use the word “Aryan” as it is a loaded word with baggage.
Things going from bad to worse in Pakistan.
1. Majority of the Geneva conference pledges are just repurposed loans.
While I too like other Indians can’t help smirking. Pakistan will not default. Nothing big will happen. Someone somewhere will come to their rescue. Pakistanis are good at Angreji haay-tauba, Arabi-mujra…
This whole drama will happen again in <10 years.
Pakistani civil society people who were protesting against Arab princes shooting Houbara bustards in Pakistan should reassess their 'aukaat' when it comes to dealing with Sheikhs. It would be so hilarious to watch if Arabis come to shoot birds a day after giving money just to rub it in.
IK should keep his mouth shut on airplanes about house of Saud. Pakistanis are very forgetful and will be flying to Turkey, Iran, in no time. Arabs are just taking their sweet time, showing them who is boss, and how 'equal' this relationship is.
On the other side of this, Arabs will own the big LNG terminals, maybe even a few power plants.
I generally concur with you Bhimrao. There is no way America, China and Saudi let Pakistan completely collapse. It is an essential part of all of their toolkits, quite remarkable in a way.
But maybe the general mismanagement and corruption is intersecting with some powerful forces this time ? They need to import large quantities of food and that always creates tricky situations.
” let Pakistan completely collapse.”
IMO there is no sign of even minor collapse.
—
“It is an essential part of all of their toolkits, quite remarkable in a way.”
Of these, Arabs are slowly being brought to our side. If we can’t afford to miff Iran so can’t the Pakistanis.
America and China will always use Pakistan to cut India to size.
China won’t throw free money.
That only leaves American ‘geostrategists’.
—
“But maybe the general … tricky situations.”
You are being charitable. I don’t think it is mismanagement. IK was a good leader, SS is also reasonable, I think Miftah and Atif Mian were brilliant. Pakistani people are low quality not the politicians, this fact will not change anytime soon.
—
We should worry about the damage Adani is about to bring to our own markets. This sort of fraud is deeply ingrained in up-and-coming Indian businesses and especially Gujju businesses.
—
I doubt Adani in the long term will cause that much damage. I mean its literally from Ambani’s playbook. If Ambani is today seen as a global player, and too big to fail (just not for India, but for the world), so will Adani in few years. This is the same way Jack ma or even Rockefeller rose.
Plus there is a chance that since majority of his revenue still tied to Indian market, he might rise as an Indian titan similar to Russian and Chinese titan and challenge them overseas.
Pakistani Alto is at 6.6 Lakh INR, WagonR at 9.6 Lakh INR. This is about ~1.8 times what Indians pay, Pakistani models are a generation or two behind too. This is
But urban intermarriage in modern era is breaking current endogamy.
On G25, I gave more Indus than Jatts of Punjab. Before aryan migration, the more OG locals are more similar to me genetically than them. Am I more native to that land then? What red line do you use?
By that logic thewarlock, I can claim the Levant because my OoA ancestors have been there, lmao..
Who is a native then? The oldest current inhabitants. You are not the oldest current inhabitant of Sindh.
You probably are the oldest current inhabitant of the region you live in (mid-castes generally are).
Can we get a static page with an FAQ about how Pakistan is not India etc ? I thought we settled this 75 years ago. But the discussion keeps reappearing.
My family has been through riots in New Delhi, Hyderabad, and Ahmedabad. We have seen what sides people fall on. Most people are good. But the biggest threat historically and even now is radical Muslims mobs. We know what the lines are. But everyone knows where the cards fall, when shit has hit the fan.
Hindus and Jains are very much cooperative dharmic brethren in modern day. There is hardly any animosity outside of usual caste based tribal stuff that pops up all over S Asia.
And oh. How convenient. If I adopt your exact ideology, I will be accepted. What’s amazing is that isn’t a requisite to be accepted in pluralistic minded societies, what most of urban Hindu society is. BJP has also broken caste lines. It scares the shit out of the Left who want to keep using caste.
You come from a very rigid, confessional, prostelyzing faith, when practiced the way it is in a theocratic Junta state like Pak. All the rapes and murders of dharmic peoples. I see it all. Rich of you to say how acceptance will workout if one gives up their entire religious identity. That’s not what tolerance is. The fact that you think that shows what your real beliefs are.
And Parsis are just as Gujarati as my family is. They have been in Gujarat for a long time and are integrated in the culture. Parsi DNA is also 25% Gujarati vania type of admix.
>We know what the lines are. But everyone knows where the cards fall, when shit has hit the fan.
Thanks for explaining how we all are not sem2sem
Blah should read this and try to understand.
thewarlock “if I adopt your ideology I will be accepted.”
I don’t do preaching. I honestly never cared much for other people.
Many Muslims do. They may be dumb, but their intentions are pure. They truly believe if you reverted, you’d be saved from hell. No matter how dumb it sounds to you, the intention isn’t bad at all.
Now coming to Brahmins, they want you to stay Dharmic. Not because they want to save you from hell. There is no hell in Hinduism. It’s all about power and politics. They don’t want lower sections of dharma becoming empty. Isn’t that obvious mate?
@ J Khan @ Qureshi
* I would like to see you two reply to points on this comment rather than blabbering ‘but weiz different’ without any backing
A nation has to have some basis, usually it’s linguistic grouping.
In Indian regions & East Pakistan, you can see cultural + religious + Social relations too.
You still want a common thread ‘example’ lmao
Since you can’t read what I wrote, I will just type it down in one line- why does punjabi society have structuring? you have oil pressing, scavenger, weaver castes. This structuring is typical of Indian civilizational regions, and it’s NOT found anywhere else. I don’t know why & @qureshi keep ignoring this
And there is a genetic ‘continuum’ too meaning neighbouring regions don’t show big gaps.
All you can reply is but we are closer to kpk than jharkhand and cope. Ofcourse you share some stuff with KPK. Every neighbouring region is close. How does this even relate to nation state groupings?
We are not sem2sem. Rajasthani are not same as Oriyas either. Point is all are binded by a larger civilisational basis. You can’t deny this and keep coping with ‘weiznotsem as Tamil’
Just apply your logic on linguistic groupings ‘Lorraine iz closer to Germany than south France, hence France has no basis’ you can see how stupid this sounds
Also for someone so keen on denying common threads of the Indian grouping. Why don’t you provide one for Pakistan? Your nation has 0 basis. KPK closer to Afghanistan & Punjab closer to Haryana/Rajasthan.
How can you still say Pakistan is a civilisational state
This is absolutely hilarious.
yeah Pakistan barring Balochistan/Pashtun place is pretty similar to India.
Btw with regards to the weaver scavenger etc caste thing, there exists no such groups in Bangladesh that are native to the land. There was that one outlier group within the BEB data set called the “Borgaons” or something and they were colonial-era imports from South India who scored like them.
The area and people of Bangladesh was also referred to as “impure”, “barbarian”(mleccha), sinful(papa) and such by the ancient Hindu texts because the people were outside the realms of Vedic religion and society and practiced their own beliefs and were considered “tainted”. The earliest mention of Pundravardhana for instance is through a Buddhist text. The people were Buddhists or animists or people who followed local religions. I don’t buy these Hindu nationalist propaganda points you keep bringing up btw if you wanna say we’re brown sure but nah to the sem2sem brozzer we wuz all so and so crap.
You are glossing over an important fact too.
Considering Bengali Muslim structure, who have probably lost caste identity, doesnt prove that Bengal isn’t part of Indian civilisation
There are Namasudra Dalits in East Bengal, who are native to Bengal and speak Bengali.
Again you come in with ‘wedifferent’ and when faced with actual facts you become a parrot
Bangladesh was 30% Hindu in 47, and considering a lot of Hindu converts in the 70% Bengali Muslim population, Hinduism must have been the majority religion. It’s clear as daylight.
You can cope any way you want, it won’t change reality.
Hindu nationalists can’t read lol
The oldest sites of any historical relevance are ALL Buddhist, all the stupas and viharas from Rajshahi, or Dinajpur, or Comilla, or Chittagong, or Narayanganj. The people were ORIGINALLY Buddhist or practitioners of local faiths which is why they were hated by the Vedics and referred to as sinful(papas) barbarians(mleccha, a term for people outside of Hinduism) lol.
This is just a simple fact, every long standing monument that is old has something Buddhist related to it including Mahasthangarh where there were multiple Buddhist stupas like Gokul Medh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gokul_Medh
You can’t seem to accept historical facts. I’m guessing the “Facts” you speak of come from Abhijit Chavda or Hindu nationalist message groups because they contradict reality quite hard. Every single historical text including your precious Hindu ones considered us non-Vedic but somehow we wuz Hindu bro lmao
The Hindus of the area would have converted from Buddhism as well.
We is quite different from you, just accept the basic facts instead of continuously propunding your Hindutva fantasies
You just wrote a whole lot of nothing. Actually you accepted it yourself.
No one denies Buddhism+Local faiths existing. Even Bihar, UP have the oldest sites as Buddhist.
You just said ‘yes we were swallowed by the Indic civilisation and made Hindu majority at some point of time’
That mlechha bs doesnt prove anything. The same has been mentioned for Sindh, Bihar kingdoms and we all know they were Hindu majority and even now Bihar is. It had more to do with pure vedic rituals not being observed at some point rather than being non-Hindu.
Bengal has lower castes, and they did not mix to form a homogeneous group. It’s that simple.
Also 30% Hindu + Hindu converts would automatically mean Hindu majority before Islam and even some time after.
And this is just considering East Bengal, consider all of Bengal and it’s even more likely that Bengal was Hindu majority.
Keep coping brozzer. You can’t reply to these points.
You literally answered none of my points.
Nope, people converted from Buddhism/local religions to Islam, or from Buddhism/local religions to Hinduism. You creating your own little Hindu narratives won’t change what we have on paper. Vedic society, Aryan society was never Bangladesh, ever. All those other places Bihar or some shit were all originally Hindu, so what the fuck are you going talking about? The Gautama Buddha was born as a Hindu prince, you literal retard lmao so no, the oldest influences in North India and India as a whole would have been fucking Hinduism based off of simple history alone. This takes basic deduction skills which you seem to greatly lack.
If Bangladesh was ever really a part of this obviously bullshit Hindu system, the oldest sites and influences within would be Hinduism but alas that’s not the case. Shalban Vihara in the Mainamati site in Comilla or Somapura Vihara in Paharpur, Naogaon or Sitakot Vihara in Dinajpur or Pandit Vihara in Chittagong or others all show that Buddhism and local faiths were what people were practicing lol
Then you have the fact that there is no such thing as a weaver caste or scavenger caste or anything in Bangladesh and that pretty much seals the deal.
This blah guy is a dishonest, historically illiterate Hindutva propagandist lol we are quite objectively different historically and genetically.
@Blah
Is East Bengal really just all lower castes or is there a lack of endogamy? I think signals of endogamy can still be same if proportions of ancestry are relatively the same across multiple groups. So a PCA with Indus, steppe, and AASI may not pick it up well. But something else might be able to? I think Razib has said no caste like structure in the past and a geographic cline like most other places.
Blah thinks the oldest influences in North India and India as whole is Buddhist when Buddha was himself born in North India as a Hindu prince lmao how the fuck can Buddhism be the oldest influence when the guy himself was born after it, dumbfuck?
Blah also seems to gloss over one thing because he can’t dispute it and it’s the simple fact that Mahasthangarh is the oldest site of archaelogical relevance in Bangladesh and surprise surprise there are multiple Buddhist viharas there in Govinda Bhita and nearby in Gokul Medh. There are many ancient Buddhist sites but not any Hindu sites of that caliber lol yet India contains a shitton of much older Hindu sites.
This guy can’t seem to be consistent and he goes against his own Hindu books lmao
>A nation has to have some basis
– A common language
– A common religion
– A common army
– A common legal, political & taxation system
– A common contiguous geography
– Similar culture
– Similar cuisine
– Acceptance of the whole wide world.
Using the above category Pakistan is more of a nation than India is.
This is why you have to reach out thousands of years back, and the only thing you found common amongst all of India is fucking caste division, which emphasizes the deep divisions in the land, not nationhood. LOL
>Point is all are binded by a larger civilisational basis. You can’t deny this and keep coping with ‘weiznotsem as Tamil’
Sorry bud, there is no civilizational basis binding anything in India, not there ever was. Only the British managed to control the entire thing. Without the British, you would not even be able to communicate with a Tamil or a Bengali to discuss your civilizational aspirations.
It emphasizes common patterns in social structures across all regions. Amazing how you try to spin it
You don’t bring anything with those points. Back them up. Also it’s pathetic how you resort to bringing up modern taxation systems lmfao.
India-Pak-Nepal-Bengal region has common religious history, common linguistics, common social structures, genetic continuum.
Again skipping over the main question. Let’s just focus on these individual regions since you keep denying points in the Indic civilisation thing.
1)Take Punjab. To the Left we have KPK-Balochistan. To the right we have Haryana-Rajasthan. Who should Punjab be in a nation-state with on a civilisational basis? Obviously Haryana-Rajasthan
2)Also take KPK-Balochistan. It has Punjab in right and other Iranic regions on left. Who should they be with? Obviously Afghanistan/Iran.
I don’t care whether we have to be a modern nation state or not, how british united blah blah. The fact remains that this region is binded by a larger deeply rooted civilisational basis. All you can do is cope with differences within sub-regions of this civilisation. I am all for it, but try denying the larger binding and you will be served with actual facts.
Someone didn’t get the memo- there no civilizational basis except what the British made here. Punjab didn’t even want Punjabis of the other kind (it got religiously cleaned on both sides in 47 if you forgot) and here you are asking stupid rhetorical questions about how it will choose Haryana-Rajhastan because of some weird caste binding. wtf bro. your username checks out.
Punjab and KPK are living in relative peace together for almost 150 years now. In that timeframe, Afghans have genocided Hazaras and Turkmen, Punjabis genocided Punjabis, Kashmiris, Bengalis, Bengalis genocided Biharis etc etc.
But this guy still thinks some civilizational binding is in place.
1) Indian civilisational points
Modern religious hate is how you are trying disprove this? Absolute joke.
What about linguistics+culture+religious history+society structures.
Amazing, just amazing how you are denying the caste divided societal signals. It just proves how deeply rooted the basis is.
2) Pakistan civilsational basis
Lmfao you couldn’t respond to the question. Modern religious hate + weizliving peacefully is your basis??
This is absolutely hilarious. And any amount of spinning objective facts with ‘but what peace in last 60 years reee’ is just such a bad argument.
Modern India could have been balkanized and that still won’t change the objective fact that there is a larger Indian civilisational area.
For instance, Nagaland is a part of modern nation state, not the civilisational one. Sindh is part of the civilisational area. It’s that simple.
I just literally proved to you that we have little to nothing in common and yet here this guy keeps on repeating ”linguistic” ”culture” ”society”
Let me repeat. They dont have the same culture, they don’t follow the same religion, they speak different languages, they don’t have the same diet, they don’t even look the same, they celebrate different festivals. What civilizational basis?
Sindh is 40% Baluch, they have been living here peacefully for centuries now, speak Sindhi, follow all Sindhi norms and now even intermarry. Don’t see any ”civilizational” friction here lol. Compare this to ethnic Sindhi Hindus who left enmasse. Civilizational binding my ass.
Saying Sindhi hindu left enmasse is a bit cruel (as if they had a choice ) but ok …
S Qureshi:
“– A common language
– A common religion
– A common army
– A common legal, political & taxation system
– A common contiguous geography
– Similar culture
– Similar cuisine
– Acceptance of the whole wide world.”
Qureshi, mate, you forget the most important one, “a common colonial history”. Nothing else is needed tbh.
We were all subjects of same Queen/King. sem2sem.
Wouldn’t say we have common colonial history as well.
We have ethnicities/groups which supported colonial masters, and some who were complicit passively, and some who resisted.
democrats dislike islam by -5, republicans by -42,
democrats like hinduism by +8, republicans dislike it by -7, republicans also dislike jehovahs witness more than islam, also dislke unitarian universalism by -24.
@ PencilMan
Let’s say Bengal was originally a Buddhist/pagan region. (there had to be vedic influences but let’s just go with your point. Even other regions could have been like this).
Don’t comment more on it
Fact is( which you yourself are accepting) is that Bengal came to be a Hindu majority region, and for a very significant period of time.
There are caste structures, can’t you read? The Namassej I brought up are a fishing+boatmen caste. A large section of Bengali Muslims may have lost or never had caste but overall Bengal is a caste divided society.
Repeat this after me “Bengal was a Hindu majority region with at the least some caste structures. It forms continuum with Eastern India”
This proves that Bengal is a part of Indian civilisation. It’s all so clear. Your use of abuses just shows how rattled you are by this fact.
dafuq lol
Did you just strawman me AGAIN? Since when was there ever proof of Bangladesh becoming a “Hindu majority”, you deceptive retard?
I explicitly stated in clear terms that the Hindus of the region would have been converted from Buddhism/local faiths and that the Muslims would have been converted from Buddhism/local faiths with some ofc converting from Hinduism.
a) Bangladesh was originally Buddhist. Don’t go around backtracking when you get called out lmao North India and your precious Bihar and other India places were HINDU and not Buddhist seeing Buddha was born as a Hindu
b) Bangladesh was not majority Hindu
c) Bangladesh was outside the folds of Hinduism by their own books and referred to as sinful non-Vedic impure barbarians so we were never the same as you to begin with
d) the original belief was always Buddhism and Hinduism only really was relevant in the 12th century. Bangladesh was a frontier zone to begin with and Hindu shit was late on the scene in Bangladesh and the ORIGINAL and LONGEST influence was historically Buddhism unlike other places like India where it was Hinduism by a long shot.
e) You’re not even right in the slightest lmao you’ve literally just commented straight up Hindutva fanfiction as if this is fanfiction.net. The longest standing and oldest places of any relevance are Buddhist monuments in Banlgadesh, no such Hindu temples of that kind exist, at all.
@PencilMan
It’s all boiling down to whether Bengal was Hindu majority or not. Anything else is cope.
It’s clear overall that Bengal was Hindu majority, let’s look at Bangladesh
30% Hindus in 1947 and considering some atleast 20%/70% which is conservative estimate, to be Hindu converts,
It’s all so clear that Bangladesh was Hindu majority.
Btw you are glossing over some caste structures too (Namassej, Pod) sure that cements it.
You are debating an objective fact. You can’t win. You can just use labels and abuses.
Blah,
I mean, I’ve outlined numerous key points related to the religious origin of Bangladeshis, the Buddhist background and how it was there from the beginning and how it was considered by Hindus and Hindu texts and how late the Hindu incursion was in the region and how the oldest things are all Buddhist which you’ve never been able to disprove.
25% of West Bengal was Muslim prior to Partition, and about 30% of East Bengal was Hindu prior to Partition so about even. Regardless, your sophistry is just another example of deflection. East Bengal was still 70%+ Muslim with more Muslims in the West.
Even assuming your historically inaccurate, diregarding of the facts of Bangladeshis being descended from Buddhists, it still wouldn’t mean much. You know why, Blah? Because the Bangladeshi Muslims of today are Muslim. They weren’t Hindu yesterday, nor were they Hindus ten years ago or a hundred or 2 hundred years ago. They would have converted hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years ago, according to historical records(from Buddhism and local faiths, and some from Hinduism ofc) like Eaton’s Bengal frontier book so they haven’t had a connection to Hindus in many centuries so no they aren’t culturally similar to you Indians either.
This is some real desperate. I see this from Indians a lot on twitter. They make fun of Bangladeshis on Twitter but so desperately call us theirs and want us to be part of their Hindutva liebensraum plan. Just let it go, Bangladeshi Muslims are descended from Buddhists(the overhwhelming majority of us) and even the ones descended from Hindus converted centuries ago, they have no connection to you guys. Or should I say we? Give it a rest with the “we are the same brozzer” schtick
Bengali Hindus are converts from Buddhism too btw
Haha you are backing off
Quite simple. Bengal(including East Bengal) was Hindu majority for a very significant period of time. Caste stuctures have seeped quite deep too. No answer on lower castes existing in Bengal/East Bengal society. I wonder why?
Even with your majority Bengali Muslim being Buddhist converts and what not, overall Bengal seems to be a very Hindu/Indian place civilisationally. Debating for nothing tbh.
-Bangladesh has no genetic caste structure, this has been highlighted by countless of studies which show a random clustering or one based off of obvious geographical factors unlike India and Pakistan
-Bangladeshi Muslims cluster with each other and OFF the Indian Cline unlike you and the Pakis because of our excess 13% Asiatic which pulls us significantly off-cline, so there is no proof of a caste structure, which is normal in Buddhist or societies that were formerly Buddhist like Bangladesh, where most converted from Buddhism so lower castes don’t exist
-the BEB outlier data set scored like South Indians and were insanely far away from us Bangladeshi Muslims. Obviously non-native, the data disagrees with you
-muh civilization. doesn’t and never has existed. Most Bangladeshi Muslims are descended from Buddhist or animist or local religion converts with some being from Hinduism. Bangladeshi Muslims are also religious Muslims and our ancestors converted many centuries before
-Buddhist predates Hinduism and has had the biggest influence on Bangladesh, with regards to social egalitarianism and other things and lack of class
-Again, for the billionth time, Hindu influence was late and didnt change much when it did occur in the 11th-12th centuries. The oldest sites are Buddhist. no such similar Hindu sites exist,
@ Qureishi
Again using modern nation state disputes ( which ironically you are accusing me of with muhbritish) as you are onto something lmfao
‘ but Sindhi Hindus ran away. weizcommon with baluch’
Using transitional areas does nothing. Literally every region has those. Even Sindhi groups have
recorded migration to Gujarat, and adoption of local language. This is a bs argument.
Since you can’t provide any Pakistani nation basis. (except weizliv in harmony)
I’ll just talk about the Indian one
I repeat those because you are ignoring those, ever thought of this? Caste structures in society existing only in these particular continuous regions is such a good example of the deep civilisational basis’ Sure go on and ignore it. Religiously too, Hindu-Buddhist patterns were common, albeit some non-Indian regions have those too so it’s not the defining factor. Linguistics, Sanskritic base and loanwords.
Try answering normally, without using welive peacefully & Bengali fight with Punjabi bs.
Yawns. Literally just answered point by point on why Pakistan ticks off more boxes as a nation than India, and still getting same civilizational bs.
Come up with a better excuse for sem2sem.
Lmfao why you act so smug when you are bringing up literally nothing. ‘Yawns’. “You just explained it” seriously?
And How exactly?
1) Linguistically KPK & Punjab are different regions
2)Religious History- KPK has no Hindus in their native population. Punjab was very much regular Hinduism influenced and still has 15-20% Hindus, compared to 0% Hindu Pashtuns
3)Culturally- Punjab & even South India observe festivals on the same dates. You don’t share this with KPK
4)Societal structures- Divided by occupation. Where are Pashtun leather-worker castes?
Where is the binding factor for Pakistan? I still can’t see it. Oh right it doesnt exist.
What’s the point though, I’ll just get another “but we are close to each other (no shit you are neighbours. where is the civilisational divider?’ “We live in harmony but youiz fighting’. “Same taxation system saar.” answer
Yawns. Reply to actual points instead of just saying there is no basis
Also dont accuse me of sem2sem, I have repeated numerous types sub-regions within are not same. Rajasthan, Orissa, Kerala are all part of larger India but still different. Use that as a straw-man again & it will just prove you have nothing going for your case. Well it already looks to be the case.
Punjab does not have have any Hindus. Neither does KPK. Both regions speak Urdu to communicate. Punjab is not divided by occupation in 2022. This is bullshit and something you cook up because you seem to be living in the past. The divisions in Punjabi rural areas ( majority population resides here) is between landlords and peasants. This is the same in Sindh. Both regions are connected, trade with each other, have the same government, same army, same taxation systems, quiet similar cuisine, same religion, same sect etc etc
This is more than you can say of any two areas of similar size in India.
Actually there is no point in history where Punjabis had more than common with South or East Indians than with Pasthuns.
Actually LOL’d at this lmfao. You are literally using modern markers instead of the civilisational one? what?
same govt, taxation like what? this is a modern invention. So much for someone who accuses me of using british involvement. We are talking about a civilization factor here, respected neighbour
West Punjab was mostly a 15% native Hindu region in 1947 after years of conversion. Did you just unironically say Punjab had no Hindus?
Mochis, Kumhars, Mussalis, Teli and a whole myriad of castes exist in Punjab with a specific occupation.
What even are you talking about?
I am continuously bringing up the same binding factors, and you are continuously ignoring them.
Again and again, the same weiz closer to kpk than Bihar. Brother the binding factors I list are common with Bihar rather.
Only things you have in common with KPK are due to being regularneighbours. No civilisational factor in play. Still didn’t get one from your side if you strongly believe in the opposite.
religion,sect like what again? that’s a defining factor? kpk should just merge with the islamic world then.
>same govt, taxation like what? this is a modern invention.
Err.. guess what: the entire concept of a nation is a ‘modern invention’.
> West Punjab was mostly a 15% native Hindu region
So is it now? No. Move on.
> I am continuously bringing up the same binding factors
Do you know the meaning of ”binding”? You have not even pointed to one factor that is ”binding”. LOL
The only ”binding” factor here is geography. Nothing else.
>Mochis, Kumhars, Mussalis, Teli and a whole myriad of castes exist in Punjab with a specific occupation.
You mean minority Dalit castes? How does that actually make Tamil Punjabi sem2sem? What is the ”binding” here? Anyway, most of these now have moved away from their traditional occupations. So, move on.
> Only things you have in common with KPK is due to being neighbours
Your different ethnic groups in India don’t even go to the same temples. Come visit a mosque sometime, you will not find a ”Pakhtun mosque” or a ”Punjabi mosque”.
Please just move on with your life. We not sem2sem. Most of us don’t care about ”civilizational binding factors” you have cooked up. You speak different language, follow different religion, have different customs, look different, talk different, eat different.
But guy wants sem2sem acknowledgement from us. Anyway man, im done for the night. I think Truschke was right, many Hindutvadis still living in 1000 BCE and talk like it was all yesterday.
To Blah and anyone else,
Bangladesh is a literal nation-state.
-98% of the people of BD are ethnic Bengali folks, which means there is an ethnic and in turn genetic connection among us
-we have and speak our own language and it’s official and quite important to us, and it’s called Bengali
-we share a similar history
-we share the same food and cultural outlooks
-similar traditions and world values
Sure, we share some of those too with our West Bengal ethnic Bengali folks who account for what 7% of India but that doesn’t detract from the fact that Bangladesh is its own, separate unique existence. There’s areas in Italy much closer to their Swiss counterparts than their Sicilian counterparts. There’s areas in France(Alsace) that are closer to Germans than people from elsewhere.
So what? What’s the significance of pointing this out, blah? The only time “we” were ever “together” was when a foreign imperial power(the Brits) conquered us through sheer military force. It wasn’t some mutual thing. I guarantee you most Bangladeshis in Bangladeshis or diaspora dont even know what a Rajasthan even is, much less other Indian states. I doubt they even cared about their colonial era counterparts during that era considering they would never have interacted with them or if they did would see them as too different.
We are not the same, we don’t look the same(or similar), we CAN’T be the same and we don’t WANT to be the same. You have to take heed of these things.
@PencilMan
So you have accepted that Bengal was indeed Hindu-ised.
I also agree you are essentially your own region. Identify as whatever.
But how conveniently you just use this train of debate when it comes to your own region, and not anything else.
Punjab is different from Madhya Pradesh. Himachal from Maharashtra. UP from Karnataka. Who denies this? Also, looks wise ( I don’t why you are fixated on looks other than linguistics,society,culture etc but anyways yes these regions are different in phenotype too)
Just accept that there is a binding, civilizational factor. There is a larger concept of India, and for you unfortunately, it includes Bengal.
Already mentioned, idgaf about british involvement. Sikkim, Nagaland etc are not Indian regions, we still have them. I am never using british involvement here, so that’s a pure straw-man.
Bengal was originally Buddhist unlike India so you can keep parroting yourself over and over again, we were always different. The HIndu influence didn’t change a whole lot. You strawman one thing after the other because all of your points lack merit in logic and historical accuracy. 25% of West Bengal was Muslim lol and East Bengal was at 70% Muslim. A place that was “Hinduised” wouldn’t have such high numbers of it and I doubt it was considering we lack the caste structure of pakistan and india that were hinduized.
You repeat yourself over and over even when you’ve been proven wrong with easy facts. That’s how it goes with you Hindutva fools. There is no such connection considering we have been Muslims for the longest time and Buddhist before then.
Bengal is 53% Muslim in 1947. That’s literally an almost half/half divide
Considering converts it’s so obvious Bengal was Hindu-majority. For more than a millenium, Bengal was witnessing conversion away from Hinduism
This just proves you were Hindu majority region for a significant period of time. Don’t spin it,
Caste structures are easily visible. Can’t you read? I have named a few of them. Looking at pre-47 Bengal, a lot of regions even in East Bengal were caste-ridden.
Let’s agree some were buddhist/pagan and were not showing caste structures. It’s clear that they were not >50%.
You are denying actual facts, not me.
“pakgeotagging”
LMAO. Discarded. What a great source. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_Bengal_(1947)
” An estimation suggests that before Partition, West Bengal had a population of 21.2 million, of whom only 5.3 million or roughly 25 percent were Muslim minorities, whereas East Bengal had 39.1 million people, of whom a staggering 11.4 million or roughly 30 percent were predominantly Hindu minorities”
It’s an objective fact that 70% of East Bengal/Bangladesh was Muslim. 25% of the West Bengal area was also Muslim the absolute audacity to suggest Bangladesh was 53% Muslim/non Muslim lmao
Also, prove that Bangladeshis have caste structure. Every single cluster plot with Bangladeshi Muslims show us completely randomly and without caste variation, you are OPENLY LYING, you propagandist.
Even Razib has posted about this speaking about the geographical variation and how no such caste structure exists in Bangladesh.
The oldest sites in Bangladesh are Buddhist, just a simple fact, not Hindu. Hinduism came late and didnt make much of an impact most of the Muslims today converted from Buddhism . They are still different from you because they are muslims. Keep sem2semming online
‘To Blah and anyone else,’
Bro, there is no one else… 🙂
@ Saurav
That’s what I thought too lol
Lone wolf grindset 💪
Wowza @ Qureshi has just accepted that India-East Pak regions were indeed a civilisation.
All he has are modern systems. Ok brother no one is denying this. You have same governments. Happy? What a civilisational commonality.
btw very small minority dalits? nah brother they are huge with each caste having population in millions.
talk different, eat different. I just labelled down each of those 1)linguistics 2) religion 3)society 4) culture with examples
guys, every single sub-region in the world has differences. some have a common factor that distinguishes a cluster of them from the others. That’s what I am talking about here.
I am happy using the past, guess because we are talking about a civilisational basis?
*Punjab has no hindus, thing of past* .> using actual british intervention effects which you accuse others of.woah.
right brother, enjoy your no-basis modern nation state that is destined to fail
Guy is pointing to ‘linguistic’ civilizational basis. A Punjabi and Bengali speak different languages, they literally fought over language not too long ago.
But hey you eat mango we eat mango we all sem2sem civilizational binding haha
By the way, the fact that Indians see themselves as Indian, this is a British thing right? It’s like 1.4 billion identifying from a eurocentric/euro-mistake perspective.
The Mughals had extended the definition of Hindustan (again, a non-native mistake) to include Western UP but even that is a stretch.
How many Marathi or Bengali identified as Hindustani before British arrival? Or even right after British arrival? The British forever changed the meaning of “Indian”, originally meaning native of Punjab & Sindh, apart from creating other new identities such as the umbrella term “Hindu” to unite non-Muslims (part of Divide & Conquer policy).
Let’s assume there were no British. Let’s assume India was balkanized. Let’s assume no one saw of them as ‘Indian’ nationality-wise.
And now my points begin. About the civilisational basis. These don’t need any modern nation states for that.I have repeated numerous times about how there is a common binding factor based in religious history+society structures+linguistics+culture.
You lot are hopeless. A cluster of different sub-regions having a larger common basis doesnt strike you at all. Just deluding yourself for justifying your existence. Btw Pakistan basis. Where?
It’s just that most of modern India are actually part of the civilisational concept of India. Nagaland, Sikkim etc are exceptions and this just proves how we are not riding on muhbritish unity.
@blah
Let’s assume? You can’t. I cannot assume life without my parents. Because I was never orphan. Any imagination based on such assumption will ALWAYS be wrong, no matter how intelligent I am.
I can’t tell what would have happened without colonialism. History is unpredictable.
We did get a lot from colonialism though. Apart from infrastructure and railways and industries, both Hindus and Muslims follow Victorian era British family values and other colonial era culture.
It’s funny when Indians tell Westerners in their own countries “in our culture, we.. “.. you are basically teaching them culture they imposed on you and have long abandoned.
no, the family values were similar. unbrainwash yourself.
there were some differences btwn Muslims and hindus, obv, but basically all eurasian societies have a core set of agricultural based societal values
Razib, we marry in our late 20s, start a nuclear family, send our children to school to study until 18 instead of off to farms or battlefields at 12, our kids go to university, graduate, get a job and the cycle repeats .. it wasn’t like this during Mughal times, our lifestyle was a lot different.
We borrowed this model directly from the British and Europeans.
I don’t know about you Americans, but we Pakistanis certainly didn’t develop this model in house. How am I brainwashed?
What even?
Lmfao I am using ‘let’s assume’ because the points I have raised are objective facts, and wouldn’t have changed whether we had the British or not.
A common Hindu-Buddhist past , common linguistic zones + influence, structuring of society, same dates for festivals.
but but these are british constructs saar.
‘I will keep denying facts because they question my nation state’s existence & identity’ just say this and move on.
@blah I’m not convinced by alternate history arguments.
A guy as smart as Razib couldn’t predict how his life would turn out had he chosen a different career track, and here you are, whatsapp university graduate, trying to predict alternate history on a global scale.
In our culture, we strive to minimize suffering.
In our culture, we respect elders unconditionally. Mata, pita, guru, deivam.
In our culture, we venerate our ancestors.
In our culture, we crisscross the land on tirtha yatras.
We also eat with the right hand and wipe with left.
We got all this from British wonly.
> we marry in our late 20s, start a nuclear family, send our children to school to study until 18 instead of off to farms or battlefields at 12, our kids go to university, graduate, get a job and the cycle repeats .. it wasn’t like this during Mughal times, our lifestyle was a lot different.
That’s the progression from a feudal society to a capitalistic society, per Marx. Did India ‘borrow’ capitalism from the Europeans? Yes. We progress in our own way, first it was the parsis, then Baniyas and Brahmins, now it’s the others.
Just like the way Japan and Korea did it. Just like China is doing it in their own way.
Culture and means of production will affect each other. All that doesn’t mean that we stop being ‘Indians’. French were French before and after their revolution; to simplify, they just added liberty, equality, fraternity to their cultural values system.
@ J Khan
I quite LITERALLY am talking about factors which were not under british influence. Tf?
Punjab would magically have lost its Mochi caste if British weren’t there? Yeah right. Language & religious history too. Wow the british were onto something.
lol don’t forget all the “rajput” claims of Pak. And endogamy remains preserved to the highest level.
Actually, new subcastes or whatever euphemism you want to use like “biradris” are forming everyday with the 50+% rate of cousin marriage. Enjoy
Bengal was originally Buddhist
Classic.
I seriously don’t get what delusion goes on in the mind of our neighbours. I’ll try ending it on this note
EVERY sub-region in the world is different. Every two neighbouring ones are generally closer to each other than some regions 1000km away.
But alas, there are still larger groupings and clusters of these sub-regions are binded in a way that you can form borders somewhere.
Understand this for your own sake. or you already have and are trying your best to ignore it.
I have provided Binding factor for Indian region. Linguistics (Sanskritic base +influences) (Societal Division. Occupation based castes) ( Religious History- Hindu+Buddhism) (Culture- Calendar and festival observations) (Genetic continuum without gaps)
These are common to ‘India’ and are pretty solid factors.
This ‘Indian’ grouping unfortunately for our neighbours include Punjab,Sindh & Bengal.
I don’t want to hear British unity nonsense since I have already denied using it. If anything Pakistanis are using it for
‘Punjabis have no Hindus in their population’. Also try providing one for your own region except govt+taxation+sects+harmony. You just can’t.
@ PencilMan
So much arguments on ‘you can’t read’ and you end up mistaking overall Bengal for Bangladesh
It’s clear Bengal as a whole was Hindu majority. Yes 46% in 1947. Even regions of Bangladesh were 30% so you can sense a Hindu majority in the past. Keep coping. Saying that not even 2/7 Bangladeshi Muslim are Bengali Hindu converts is pure delusion
Caste structures? I have just linked occupation based castes found in Bengal again and again. even East Bengal. You don’t have any genetic studies on them and hence you can’t comment on any structuring. Point is, caste exists in Bengal, quite deeply.
neighbours on copium-watch today
this stuff about pak/ind/beng difference is cringe. but two pts
1) in 1900 there was no controversy about indian Muslims calling themselves indian Muslims.
2) whatever args ppl have here, ppl in Iran, or Malaysia, or egypt, are clear that indo-pak-bang similarities are a thing. this is not dispositive, but it’s also a fact
@ Razib
I know you understand the existence of a common thread. Stating that ‘others viewed the region’ as same is a good point, but you have to follow it with the actual reasons behind it.
You can see that every Indian region has atleast a decent amount of caste structuring, which is not found anywhere else and is very typical for the Indian civilisation regions. other religious+cultural+lignguistic facts I have already glossed over. I have become a parrot thanks to neighbours on this forum.
But I must state again, every sub-region is different. But there are binding factors that separate a particular cluster from the other. It’s a very simple concept.
You can see that every Indian region has atleast a decent amount of caste structuring, which is not found anywhere else and is very typical for the Indian civilisation regions.
just to be clear: strong caste structure among Muslims of Pakistan. almost none in Bangladesh (this perplexed ppl at sanger, who had never seen this among their s. asian samples)
@ Razib
I am talking Bengal as a whole. Using Muslim converts who tend to lose caste status (not every region is like Pakistan) doesn’t really prove much. The region of Bengal still has a decent amount of caste-structuring, whether East or West. It is a part of the Indian civilisational grouping on this ground alone
Wut? You Bangladeshi mlecchas wuz Buddhist…You get to read RC Majumdar’s History of Bengal’s page 36 only page 36 and pass it off as wisdom here. You ” “impure”, “barbarian”(mleccha), sinful(papa) ” pepul don’t get to mention Vanga, Anga, Pundras from Mahabharata…, you wuz mleccha, so were the all the Madraasis (Yay! @Enigma) , Marathis, Gujjus, Sindhis, … don’t you know?
—
I hope you know now the answers you were looking for about where ‘division’ stems from.
—
So wut if oldest temples ANYWHERE in India come 8-9 centuries, almost a millenia after the oldest buddhist viharas. Show me a temple malecchas, else you are a Buddhist. Who cares about scriptural evidence? You wuz Buddhist and animist, and Mormons before that. Your great-great-great-grand papa was lovingly shown the light of Pisslam by Bakhtiar Khilji himself, or Al Baghdadi oh so-sori I meant Shah Jamal.
Go back just 50 years before 1900 and there was no ”indian muslim” or indian hindu. What happened in 1857? Or go back to 1757. Or 1700 or before.
All this ‘Indianness’ didnt permeate deeper than the literate elite (mostly top 10% of society). Local peasants mostly lived and died within 10 miles of where they were born, and wouldn’t have given two shits about someone 200 miles away let alone 2000.
This is why when people use words like modern European words ”borders” and ”civilization” and ”nation”, they are fundamentally misrepresenting pre-modern people. It’s mostly driven by a modern agenda. We all know what that is.
denying everything. clear religious unity too
sure ganesh and shiva idols/status are coincidentally common between Kashmir & Tamil Nadu.
What a whole lot of bullsshit these pakistanis spout.
This is why when people use words like modern European words ”borders” and ”civilization” and ”nation”, they are fundamentally misrepresenting pre-modern people. It’s mostly driven by a modern agenda. We all know what that is.
this is what you would think if you had some college education. but this is not really true. the usage of “quotes” is classic midwittery. you are probably smarter than most people, but definitely not everyone. i wish you would listen to your betters, but this is what it is.
if you want to follow-up, Azar Gat has a book on the deep origins of nationhood that’s not too ideologically.
more concretely, things like the “peoples’ crusade” and the religious revivals of late medieval Europe (preprotestant) show that popular-mass culture was not purely localized. this of course is not to deny that media driven mass culture hasn’t changed things…
(q.’s views are ones promoted by woke midwits as definitive, so i get why he’s repeating them, and i would have too as well when i was 20 because that’s what i was thought and before i read more widely and thought more deeply)
indian muslim identity existed a long time ago. see *The Idea of the Muslim World: A Global Intellectual History* by aydin where he outlines their leadership role in much of the 19th century (and earlier with deoband).
second, read ibn battuta if you don’t think indian Muslim identity didn’t exist.
A Muslim identity exists vis-a-vis non-Muslims, this is literally a major theme in the Quran. Don’t mistake this for an Indian Muslim identity. This is not to say the the Muslims would not identify with their ethnic or tribal group, infact most of them primarily did. However ‘Indian’ is not an ethnicity. Most Muslim peasants would not care or have know about ”India” until the British came about and told them they are part of a British administered country called India. You keep saying how arabs, mayalsians or europeans would consider pak-ind-ban the same. Yeah bro so do we consider all goras the same. Doesn’t mean France Germany sem2sem.
How many local peasants have you interacted with? Go to interior Sindh and speak to people walking around without shoes. Most people only care about their family, clan/tribe, their linguistic group, their religion and religious sect and that is about it. Their consciousness and concern does not extend beyond that. It is only with literacy, knowledge and some education that they start even understand the concept of a nation state.
We literally experience ethnic riots first hand and saw how not even Islamic bond resolved local ethnic issues between different groups inside Pakistan., and here some guy from Haryana is going about telling how we are sem2sem and how there are imaginary borders splitting Pakistan and uniting its groups with Tamil Nadu or Bengal.
It’s hilarious, it’s funny. We know why they do it, we know the agenda behind it.
Some fun quotes from foreign visitors to India through the ages
“India which is in shape quadrilateral has its eastern as well as western side bounded by the great sea, but on the northern side it is divided by Mount Ilemodos…while the fourth or western side is bounded by the river called Indus..”
““It is said that India, being of enormous size when taken as a whole, is peopled by races both numerous and diverse, of which not even one was originally of foreign descent, but all were evidently indigenous; and moreover that India neither received a colony from abroad, nor sent out a colony from abroad.”
Megasthenes
“The people are numerous and happy; they have not to register their households, or attend to any magistrates or their rules; only those who cultivate the royal land have to pay a portion of the gain from it. If they want to go they go; if they want to stay they stay. The king governs without decapitation or corporal punishments. Criminals are simply fined; . . . even in cases of repeated attempts at wicked rebellion they only have their right hands cut off. . . . Throughout the whole country the people do not kill any living creature, nor eat onions or garlic. The only exception is that of the Chandalas. . . . In that country they do not keep pigs and fowls, and do not sell live cattle; in the markets there are no butchers’ shops, and no dealers in intoxicating drinks.”
Faxian
“They would not kill an animal on any account, not even a fly, or a flea, or a louse, or anything in fact that has life; for they say these all have souls, and it would be a sin to do so.”
“All the people of this city, as well as of the rest of India, have a custom of perpetually keeping in the mouth a certain leaf… continually chewing it and spitting out the saliva that it excites… If anyone desires to offer a gross insult to another, when he meets him, he spits this juice in his face.”
Marco Polo
“The chief cause of India’s ruin has been the monopolising of the whole education and intelligence of the land, by dint of pride and royal authority, among a handful of men.”
Al biruni
@thewarlock all mention of Hind refers to Sindh and Punjab, and not what you call India today.
Lol wrong again. You again argue in bad faith. You have no idea about facts. Al Biruni visited gangetic plains and Punjab. So did Megasthenes. Faxian visited gangetic plains. Marco Polo Southern India. You keep scoring own goals. Punjab and Sindh were very much part of the definition of India. Al Biruni’s geographic descriptions of the borders of India were apt.
Albiruni
“Al-Biruni’s accounts also state that the entire nation was divided into little states that would occasionally enter into conflict. Among them were the states of Malwa, Sindh, Kannauj (in UP), and Kashmir. Here are some of the observations made by Alberoni in his book about India -”
Marco Polo
“During the two-year return journey by sea across the Indian Ocean, while returning home from China, Marco Polo arrived on the Coromandel Coast of India in AD 1292. He entered the kingdom of the Tamil Pandyas near Tanjore. He visited Southern India during the reign of Rudramma Devi of the Kakatiya Dynasty..”
Faxian
“He visited Kapilvastu (Lumbini), Bodh Gaya, Benares (Varanasi), Shravasti, and Kushinagar, all linked to events in Buddha’s life.”
Megasthenes
“Megasthenes visited the Mauryan capital Pataliputra (Bihar), but it is not certain which other parts of India he visited. He appears to have passed through the Punjab region in north-western India, as he provides a detailed account of the rivers in this area.”
They visited Punjab and Ganges so what? They visited entire world.
Quote one line from Faxian or Al Biruni that refers to Magadha or Sri Lanka or Bengal as Hind! Real lines from their text, not 3rd party analysis of the text.
Quote one line from Faxian or Al Biruni that refers to Magadha or Sri Lanka or Bengal as Hind! Real lines from their text, not 3rd party analysis of the text.
Faxian (known in Sri Lanka as Fa-Hien) Visited Sri Lanka in 400AD.
Quote from Article linked below Carries some invaluable historical information on Sri Lanka not found in the Sinhala Chronicle Mahavamsa. The most noteworthy of these is the vivid description of the ceremonies connected with the exposition, procession conveying the Sacred Relic of the Buddha from the then King Mahanama’s Palace to the Abhayagiri Vihara and also of Anuradhapura city, the King and the people of Anuradhapura at the time was a well-planned, beautiful city
Marco Polo This snnippet is about Kerala/Malabar
In this province the natives, although black, are not born of so deep a dye as they afterwards attain by artificial means, esteeming blackness the perfection of beauty. For this purpose, three times every day, they rub the children over with oil of sesame. The images of their deities they represent black, but the devil they paint white, and assert that all the demons are of that colour.
CHAPTER XIX OF THE ISLAND OF ZEILAN
Angaman, and steering a course something to the southward of west, for a thousand miles, the island of Zeilan presents itself.
This, for its actual size, is better circumstanced than any other island in the world
It is governed by a king whose name is Sender-naz.1 The people worship idols, and are independent of every other state. Both men and women go nearly in a state of nudity, only wrapping a
cloth round the middle part of their bodies. They have no grain besides rice and sesame, of which latter they make oil. Their food is milk, rice, and flesh, and they drink the wine drawn from trees, which has already been described
The island produces more beautiful and valuable rubies than
are found in any other part of the world, and likewise sapphires, topazes, amethysts, garnets, and many other precious and costly stones.
The people of this island are by no means of a military habit, but, on the contrary, are abject and timid; and when there is occasion to employ soldiers, they are procured from other countries, in the vicinity of the Mahometans. Nothing else of a remarkable nature presenting itself, we shall
proceed to speak of Malabar.
CHAPTER XXIII OF THE ISLAND OF ZEILAN
Description of Journey to Adams Peak
@sbarrkum can you re-read what I said, at least 5 times and then clarify how you addressed the point I raised? I think in your haste to respond you didn’t read properly.
Fa Hien Cave
From Wiki Fa Hien Cave, also Pahiyangala Cave, is situated in the district of Kalutara, Western Province, Sri Lanka and according to a rural legend, named after an alleged resident during historical times, namely Buddhist monk Faxian (also Fa-Hien, or Fa Hsien). However, there is no archaeological or historical evidence to support this legend.[1] Nonetheless, the site is of archaeological significance as Late Pleistocene human fossilized skeletal remains were discovered in the cave’s sediments during excavations in the 1960s, the 1980s and in 2013. This is the largest natural stone cave in South Asia. 3500 people can stay here at the same time. To see the size of the cave, you have to go inside and look outside. Humans have lived here for 35000-60000 years.They used sea fish, salt, and shark teeth as ornaments. This limestone was formed by corrosion over hundreds of thousands of years.
The oldest fragments of human bone fossils are attributed to three children, a juvenile and two adults that show evidence of secondary burials. The bodies had been exposed to decomposition and scavengers and the bones were subsequently placed in graves.
Additional fossil remains include those of another young child, dated to about 6,850 years BP and of a young woman (nicknamed Kalu-Menika by archaeologists), dated to about 5,400 years BP. Both individuals were also recovered from secondary burials.
The discoveries allowed archaeological and paleontological comparative studies as the earliest occupants of Fa Hien, or Pahiyangala Cave lived during the same period as European Cro-Magnon man and other Late Pleistocene hominids in the Eastern Hemisphere. Studies of teeth found in the cave indicate that the prehistoric population of Sri Lanka processed food by grinding nuts, seeds and grains in stone querns and that they continued to maintain a hunter-gatherer lifestyle until about the 8th century BCE. Sri Lanka has yielded the earliest known microliths, which didn’t appear in Europe until the Early Holocene.
occupants of the Fa-Hien Lena cave had developed bow and arrow technology 48,000 BP. This is the oldest use of this technology outside of Africa. The researchers found items associated with freshwater fishing, as well as the working of fiber to make nets or clothing. Lead author of the study, Michelle Langley of Griffith University, said, “We also found clear evidence for the production of colored beads from mineral ochre and the refined making of shell beads traded from the coast, at a similar age to other ‘social signaling’ materials found in Eurasia and Southeast Asia, roughly 45,000 years ago
According to the eleventh century writing of the Arab scholar and scientist Al-Biruni, ancient Sri lankans were aware of the technology to treat spinel varieties to eliminate unwanted hues and to enhance colour and clarity (Themelis,1992)
The 10th Century Arab historian Al-Biruni or Abu Rihaan Muhammad called the Island Sarandip and “Singal-dip”-also derived from Sinhala and dipa.
Alberuni’s India: An Account of the Religion, Philosophy, Literature,Geography, Chronology, Astronomy, Customs, Laws and Astrology of India about A.D. 1030, (ed), Edward C. Sachau, Vol. 1, Kegan Paul, (London, 1910), pp. 209, 267 & 301-303
Yeah bro so do we consider all goras the same. Doesn’t mean France Germany sem2sem.
france and Germany are part of western christendom. this is a clear identity as far back as the fall of charlemagne’s empire. do you know this or are you ignorant of it?
fwiw, i’ve interacted with bangladeshi peasants, i know what you’re alluding to. it’s a real phenomenon. but what people like, or those who argue that national identity is a post french revolution literacy thing, is that it’s a binary. the early Islamic era revolts in Iran was not just the nobles, the local people also rose up, because they were aware of their differences from the conquerors.
did literacy and mass media increase the salience of nationality? yes. but it was there long long ahead, and went back and forth depending on the society and culture (eg the greeks were highly nationalistic despite their division into city-states, arguably late medieval western Christianity was on the less nationalistic side because of the cross-linkages of the church and nobility across the continent).
i know you have strong opinions on this. but please understand i’ve forgotten more than you actually even know about this topic. you can still think i’m wrong, but don’t act like you are telling me anything i didn’t read when i was 18. i did.
Razib – “the local people also rose up, because they were aware of their differences from the conquerors”
They rose up to protect their farms, their women and everything they own. They were riled up to revolt or lose everything. Arab rule in Persia was rough, you know it.
It wasn’t because they identified with the high culture of Yazdegerd’s court.
They rose up to protect their farms, their women and everything they own. They were riled up to revolt or lose everything. Arab rule in Persia was rough, you know it.
you don’t know what you are talking about. there’s an extensive literature on the rise of Zoroastrian millenarian cults (and later ismaili/shia ones). you can easily point to the contrast with the semitic speaking mostly Christian areast that never revolted because they were integrated into the ethnic-tributary system earlier (arab Christian tribes initially did not pay dhimmi tax).
stop making shit up based on your assumptions, even if they are reasonable, or I’ll ban you like i did scorpioneater for flagrant midwittery. i’ve already seen you make shit up in other comments (if you reply to this i’l delete your comment and ban you). moderate intelligence ppl like you speaking as you have anything deep to say is worse than when obvious morons speak.
[also, really taxation burdens were not that bad in antiquity; the main issue is taxation during famine]
[also, really taxation burdens were not that bad in antiquity; the main issue is taxation during famine]
Always vaguely wondered why the ancient peasants were revolting all the time despite the low effective tax rate they actually had to pay. Perhaps they were proto-libertarians! Your answer makes a lot more sense.
if you are on the margins of subsistence and what not taxes pegged to normal times are a disaster during lean/famine times. in some of these polities peasants who did not pay were severely punished. so this presented the option of just rebeling against authorities because what did they have to lose?
the punitive nature of ancient laws can be illustrated in the life of the founder of the Han dynasty: “Liu was responsible for escorting a group of penal laborers to the construction site of the First Emperor’s mausoleum at Mount Li. During the journey, some prisoners escaped; under Qin law, allowing prisoners to escape was punishable by death. Rather than face justice, Liu freed the remaining prisoners and fled. Liu was joined by some of the grateful ex-prisoners, and he became their leader.”
It is important that any polity be open to reasonable accommodation. Not an expert on either sun tzu or arthashastra, but the post-47 India has generally tried to accommodate all the diversity within. Basically a version of kautilya’s “sam”, “dand “ and “bhed”. In present age as well, accommodation is an option to Ms but the veto wielded by them is not. The broad consensus against an M veto is also holding up.
This friction is getting played up as intolerance in western media .
No wonder the largest ethnic group in the world today are called Han Chinese and not Qin Chinese. The Han made the right choice by adopting Confucianism instead of Legalism.
Though it also makes sense why the rulers continued to tax the peasants during famines. Unless they had a large treasury, how else would the state be funded during times of famine. The border still had to be guarded and soldiers still had to be paid. The lack of bonds meant that the state relied on a continuous supply of tax revenue to fund its expenses.
So question – particulary for Razib. Has anyone done any breakdown on West Siberian Hunter Gatherer, and its proportion in IVC populations and modern Indian cline populations?
It seems particularly interesting in the context of steppe proportions, and their shared ANE origins.
not rigorously to my knowledge
@razib, would you be amenable to doing one? I wonder if the MLBA Steppe people imposed themselves on an order dominated by WSHG ancestry
Yay, a new thread!
https://www.opindia.com/2023/01/disturbing-statistics-of-forced-conversions-murders-and-rapes-of-religious-minorities-in-bangladesh-reports/
Very sad
Indus Gang
https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.timesofindia.com/india/gujarats-harappan-necropolis-reveal-death-rituals-of-5000-years-ago/amp_articleshow/96821787.cms
Ami is a good source to represent the SE Asian ancestry within Bengalis. I was using Kinh and then tried Ami on someone’s suggestion and it improved the fits. Very neat.
Any thoughts on Julian Jaynes – the Origin of consciousness in the breakdown of the bicameral mind?
west world series was built on that. Consciousness as recent works seem to suggest is a form of anticipation, hallucination according to anil seth. I would begin there, IIT theory is also interesting, though its foundational basis is a kind of monism, make of it what you will.
The theory might have some merits but is false, because consciousness exists to some measure in animals themselves much before humans, i dont see any basis of that kind of theory.
i admire the ambition, probably wrong.
i think we just need to work on gathering more evidence about consciousness (our current most advanced tech in this regard is general anestheisa) before speculating.
peter zeihan is scary. And yes, natural resources are important. world trade matters.
https://www.reddit.com/r/indianews/comments/106lpce/all_bravery_of_amit_shahs_delhi_police_is_against/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Interesting
now that foreign universities will open campuses in india, will the humanities studies be hijacked by witzel, pollock types?
already is. Look at JNU. Look at the big journalists for Western media outlets. Indian Leftists are even bigger charlatans than Western ones. If anything, maybe there will be a tiny bit of improvement with less entrenched people coming in. They will still talk badly, but they won’t have as much basis motivated reasoning.
https://www.instagram.com/beardedwarrior1/?hl=en
Lifetime vegetarian monster British Punjabi Indian Sikh lifter. Possibly natty too looking at the feds. Respect
Everything is so expensive in Canada bruh I wish my parents immigrated to Florida or something instead much warmer there too
Its gonna get even more expensive as well given Trudeau is bringing in like a million immigrants every year. Literally half the kids from my native village in India are “studying” in Canada.
It used to be quite prestigious to live in Canada but nowadays pretty anyone from South Asia can go there. Same thing with the UK. My cousins in India say migrating to these countries is just like moving to Delhi or Bangalore nowadays. And now my extended family in Canada and UK are trying to move to the US lol. Don’t know the situation wrt to Australia and New Zealand. The byzantine US immigration policy makes it hard for South Asians to mass migrate here like CAN and UK. Having other sizeable ethnic/racial minorities makes it hard too. IIRC it was the Black and Hispanic caucus within the Democratic Party that blocked the recent attempt at H1b liberalization.
Half a million immigrants a year is basically an opportunity to make shit ton of money in Canada. People always find reason to complain and some of it relating to cultural change is valid. But economically it’s just a huge opportunity to get rich served on a platter.
Getting quite cold in Rangpur and in Bangladesh as a whole. Streets don’t seem to have a lot of the cycle”vans” that I saw years back when I visited. More paved and proper sidewalks, decent bits of organization but blaring horns are still there haha
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZASg5-Z7sA
Over time I have become numb to any award, academic appointment, ‘civil society recognition’, weekly-columnist type BS. None of them matter anymore. It is about writing nice essays, having friends who can nominate you…
Same thing with American news media. NYT-WaPo-… its all a circle jerk.
—
Sagarika Ghosh has gone nuts about ‘#Mishraji’, spewing all sorts of nonsense about UP-Bihar.
https://mobile.twitter.com/SandeepParekh/status/1612275103982833667
She has made like 20 more tweets on this.
She was a Rhodes Scholar , but I don’t think it is that hard to get Rhodes, + connected Delhi circle of native informants + brown woman card + activism, journalism card,…
Everything about her and her Congressi husband’s subsequent career is mediocre.
—
I find this attitude in a lot of Bengalis and increasingly Tamils online. This is all very educational for us North Indians. These guys genuinely think our people are uncouth and unclean. Tag team with Khalistanis to joke about ‘Bhaiyyas shitting in the open’. Hilarious!
—
Hindi/Cow-heartland should wake up and take up this challenge of inter state competition. Rest of the Indians are not like us.
Beating W. Bengal should be immediate goal.
Advantage UP: hardworking people, lack of organized pull of communism/socialism, pro-industrialization electorate.
Advantage W. Bengal: COAST, deeper roots of science education, health and hygiene, no entrenched caste politics, less freeloaders.
—
I do sympathize with UC grievances about caste based quotas. I do not care about Bamans or Thakurs crying ‘oppression’. They are being discriminated against by the state, but by and large they are not oppressed.
The funny bit is North Indian OBCs are the vanguard of BJP but Bamans get the flak.
—
she clearly is pro xtian if not one already. so is her husband. cryptos and half cryptos are the silent war that most dont notice. bjp instead of creating force multipliers through temples etc, still finds it useful to control it by govts. U just need to create a right critera . ultimately, rss/bjp and their stupidities will cost this H’s and this country the most, others are hopeless, sold out for greed.
[email protected]
sincere wishes from me to UP/BH.
up is benefitting from noida. but eastern UP/BH is still constant stream of bad news.
Latest one being caste census in BH. This coupled with Wire pitching quotas in private sector tells us a precursor of ’24 campaign and what is in store if there is a surprise upset. Will wreck IN’s economic chances for the next 50 years or so. NiKu has been a big disappointment. Could have steered the JDU remnants in to a responsible opposition but alas he also seems to have hitched his bandwagon to tukde-tukde gang.
To me one of the turnaround signals would be one of the WITCH companies opening up offices anywhere between Lucknow and Patna.
out of billion people and now over 70 yrs , bihari people have the perfect track record of choosing the most nikamma leaders consistently and this is unprecedented in India. And on twitter i see many chauvinist educated biharis keep shitting on modi, bjp, rss and keep giving excuses of freight equalization etc endlessly.
At this point, the reason for lack of progress in bihar i believe is due to chauvinist impluses and having less humility than anywhere else. All one needs to do is learn from others, none of bihari leaders or bureaucrats have been able to do that for over 70 yrs. If it was an independent country, our view of it would be pretty straight forward. I am compassionate, but i believe in accountability and numbers are now clear. This is a pattern and the reason for it is chauvinism.
A simple question, how many investment meets did nitish arrange with top businesses etc in all his period in power?.
Nitish won because Lalu-raj was 5X worse. At least people don’t get kidnapped now.
One way I explain it is: UP has Delhi to look up to. Bihar has nothing, Biharis want to become prosperous by being like Bengalis of old. Let me explain, Bengalis had an advantage in college education, for two centuries up till 80s-90s, a lot of Bengalis used to become government servants as food-inspectors, teachers, bankers, insurance-agents,… simply by walking into interview rooms as the only ones with a degree. When you talk to these old Bengalis they are pretty dull, dumb but conceited people, and who did they project their dumbness and vanity on? Bihar and Jharkhand.
Biharis and large number of UP people think that getting a government job is still the way to go.
None of this takes away the agency of Biharis and UP folks. We are responsible for this mess.
educated nativist chauvinists are the problem. World is bigger place to look upto , look at TN, they are chauvinists, but have humility towards world . One simple measure of this is, how many business meetings do they do, how many other countries do the leaders travel to?. Modi went outside India even as CM. How many countries did nitish go to strike deals?.
Indian ministers of congress/ nehru-gandhi vintage like mai baap ki sarkar, they like to rule the roost, want to be head of village and want all people to bow in front of them, including all scientists, businesspeople etc.
Nitish is of the same type. Want everyone to do ji huzuri. More chauvinists means less interaction across business/world and as a result, no development since there is no investment and no good ideas on how to develop.
Pavan varma types used to tell sob tales of how places like bihar need to be helped for being poor etc and I used to buy that. I now see him and people like him as shameless scum who for decades hid this jaundiced reality by bsing in fine english/hindi ganga jamuni tehzeeb.
Just checked google for pics of ratan tata and nitish kumar, zero pics. modi and ratan tata has many pics.
A cm, who has not taken lessons from the best Industrialist in the country. what arrogant pric.
What we have:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_administrative_divisions_by_GDP_per_capita
What we should work for:
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/-/ddn-20210303-1
UP-Bihar have to find ways to be useful without the coast.
“educated nativist chauvinists are the problem. World is bigger place to look upto , look at TN, they are chauvinists, but have humility towards world . One simple measure of this is, how many business meetings do they do, how many other countries do the leaders travel to?”
This should be one of the things to improve. The situation (law-order, health, education, in that order) and day to day politics (caste) is so tangled that people tend to lose the bigger picture.
Indians (in and around India) are a talkative people. Don’t take anything they say seriously.
Biharis grabbing the central government jobs is maybe the reason the Bengali ghose is upset 😊. UP/BH folks are following their Bengali brethren to western universities as well. I see lots of mishras, jhas and prasads spouting woke to climb up the greasy pole.
Re investor meets, I believe BH is the only one apart from NE. Ffs even Channi and Mann at least pretended to care about investment.
At the aggregate level politicians do respond to what their voters care about. This piece of the puzzle seems to be missing.
Was recently at a Tex-Mex restaurant in the DMV area, and was absolutely stunned to see the doppelgängers of South Asians from the East, West and North among non-White Latinos. Saw a huge family of Gujarati origin there, clearly speaking in their mother tongue, and were it not for their accent/language I would never have guessed them as South Asian. Looked fully like Indigenous and Mestizo Latinos and blended in with the non White Latino crowd. They were probably around 50% West Eurasian and 50% AASI or more. Which is a direct parallel to the average Mexican who is around 50-55% West Eurasian, 45-50% Asian and thus both look like the same race and ethnic group.
The servers there kept speaking to them in Spanish and acted hugely surprised when they responded in English. OTOH, the few Caucasians there (including Central South Asians like myself) were all spoken to in English and stood out like sore thumbs. The racial differences between South Asians are gigantic and the two ends of the South Asian PCA cline correspond to a difference almost as large as Nigerians and Coptic Christians from Egypt. The few endogamous tribes in South Asia and NW India that are fully Caucasian (Jaats, Kambojas, Khatris etc) will never be mistaken for non White/Latin and will always be considered a Caucasian of some origin.
There is a vast difference in phenotype once you reach the 10-15% AASI threshold as is found among Jaats and Rors and other NW South Asians. Not only do Northerners and Westerners with more AASI look Latin, the ones in the South and Central regions look conspicuously South Asian due to a completely different admixture strain of AASI and other unique elements not found in the North.
Truly incredible how there are so many parallels between South Asia and Latin America. Both in race, class and culture. The income disparities and corruption are also similar in both regions. Both regions have a history of being conquered by West Eurasians and still suffer from its ramifications today.
You are such a wildly unhinged individual hahahahahah “harnizo”
Man, Indians really do hate looking like Indians, the self-hate is spectacular. They will do anything and everything and say they look like this or that before admitting they look like what they are.
Take a bow, Racelearner. You really are one hell of a speciment
A foolish comment from an even more foolish South Asian (possibly Afghan, I know how much they like picking on their fellow South-Central Asian brethren)
Pray tell me, what exactly does an Indian look like? And then tell me what it means to say that “Indians hate looking Indian” — please expound upon this brilliant statement my friend, because I am at a loss to understand what you mean by that.
It’s like saying Americans hate looking American. Or Latin Americans hate looking Latin American. In other words it makes no sense whatsoever.
You sir, are a complete lunatic.
Donors offer over $9B for Pakistan after devastating floods
https://apnews.com/article/floods-politics-pakistan-macron-united-nations-8681331c40882bd95d6280873733d9db
IMO shameful to beg like this.
A stupid man and his money deserve to be parted.
I think after haay-tauba on War on Terrorism, this is the new Pakistani shtic… these same people were trying to stand as ‘equals’ to the west and say no to… shame.
90% of those “donations” are in fact loans, admittedly on concessional terms. The days of genuinely free gibs are over for Pakistan.
Pakistan will find a way, this is their regular nautanki. As for no money:
https://quwa.org/2023/01/13/updates-to-pakistans-drone-fleet/
Si-Paaikk, Pav bhar ka Nuclear bum, Labbaik-Labbaik ya rasu-gulla…
Are Sinhalese people closer genetically to Tamils or Bengalis ? (non-brahmins)
‘Are Sinhalese people closer genetically to Tamils’
This is how civil war are started, so careful where u going with this 😛
Quite a bit drunk, so some music.
I pretty much listen music only when drinking.||
Growing up as a third gen very westernized kid I loved (and still do) much of modern western music, like Rock. Not real western music as in Bach. But is modern music of the west, really of the west.
You hear of some saying Africa has no culture. But then the radio keeps blaring the beats of African music. Of course made popular by the Americans. No complaints here. a typical Stockholm Syndrome chap.
Celina y Reutilio – Que Viva Chango (Video Oficial) 1949
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y06C82oAz9o
Chango is the Orisha, a deity in Yoruba religion
Of course most self centered people of each country think their history is most important. (I do too).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shango
For those who have not heard of Jazz great names like Mongo SANTAMARIA. Played with Santana, Dizzy Guillespie etc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiREUXxzWsA
Back to Sri Lankan and AASI music
Pretty sure the black dancer is a guy.
I just love that color, the real pure black.
Pure black, no change of color in the nether regions.
Its just one color. Not even a change of pink like for Europeans
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YskE–ZvWaM
Why the CIA attempted a ‘Maidan uprising’ in Brazil
The failed coup in Brazil is the latest CIA stunt, just as the country is forging stronger ties with the east.
A former US intelligence official has confirmed that the shambolic Maidan remix staged in Brasilia on 8 January was a CIA operation, and linked it to the recent attempts at color revolution in Iran.
On Sunday, alleged supporters of former right-wing President Jair Bolsonaro stormed Brazil’s Congress, Supreme Court, and presidential palace, bypassing flimsy security barricades, climbing on roofs, smashing windows, destroying public property including precious paintings, while calling for a military coup as part of a regime change scheme targeting elected President Luis Inacio “Lula” da Silva.
According to the US source, the reason for staging the operation – which bears visible signs of hasty planning – now, is that Brazil is set to reassert itself in global geopolitics alongside fellow BRICS states Russia, India, and China.
A former US intelligence official has confirmed that the shambolic Maidan remix staged in Brasilia on 8 January was a CIA operation, and linked it to the recent attempts at color revolution in Iran.
On Sunday, alleged supporters of former right-wing President Jair Bolsonaro stormed Brazil’s Congress, Supreme Court, and presidential palace, bypassing flimsy security barricades, climbing on roofs, smashing windows, destroying public property including precious paintings, while calling for a military coup as part of a regime change scheme targeting elected President Luis Inacio “Lula” da Silva.
According to the US source, the reason for staging the operation – which bears visible signs of hasty planning – now, is that Brazil is set to reassert itself in global geopolitics alongside fellow BRICS states Russia, India, and China.
A former US intelligence official has confirmed that the shambolic Maidan remix staged in Brasilia on 8 January was a CIA operation, and linked it to the recent attempts at color revolution in Iran.
On Sunday, alleged supporters of former right-wing President Jair Bolsonaro stormed Brazil’s Congress, Supreme Court, and presidential palace, bypassing flimsy security barricades, climbing on roofs, smashing windows, destroying public property including precious paintings, while calling for a military coup as part of a regime change scheme targeting elected President Luis Inacio “Lula” da Silva.
According to the US source, the reason for staging the operation – which bears visible signs of hasty planning – now, is that Brazil is set to reassert itself in global geopolitics alongside fellow BRICS states Russia, India, and China.
https://thecradle.co/Article/Columns/20209
Roy,
is that Brazil is set to reassert itself in global geopolitics alongside fellow BRICS states Russia, India, and China.
Yes, within the last year or two regime change attempts to those leaning towards Russia and China.
The first was the 2014 Maidan revolution in Ukraine, a la “Fuck the EU” Victoria Nuland. That got the Clown (literally and figuratively) Zelensky installed.
Then just after Nulands visit to South Asia
a) Russia and China leaning Imran Khan got ousted.
b) In SL there were the Aragalaya Protests and storming of Parliament. The Rajapakses President and PM resigned. By a constitutional Parliament vote right of center Ranil Wickremasinghe became President. He did not even win his seat in 2020 Parliament elections.
There were other shenanigans, like rating agency down grades. Prevents or makes it very expensive to raise money in International Money Market. Then one has to beg from IMF and they will get their pound of flesh. Basically sell our assets to the west, also called privatization.
We did better, SL stopped paying its International Debts. 50% owed to Hedge Funds like Black Rock, IMF and ADB about 30%. 9% to China and they dont care as they have a strategic asset, the Hambanthota port.
So another own goal by the west, much like sanctions destroying EU and Germany in particular, economies.
Regards not being able to raise dollars by borrowing, I am glad.
a) We need to be at least partially self sufficient. Not live it up on imported goodies. Even wheat flour and lentils* used by rural poor are imported. Plenty of substitutes and we had that in the 70’s under Mrs Bandaranaike.
b) Our foreign ME remittances are back to 30% or more, and not being used to service debt. (Tourism still low)
c) Regards fossil fuels, Russia, India and China are giving it to us on credit and steep discounts. China just gave (as in free) diesel for agricultural use.
Have look at the economic stats.
https://imgur.com/gallery/AFQkCHe
Naatu, naatu from RRR wins golden globes.
Couple of twtr threads show Bay Area theatres crowds (whites + asaians)whistling and dancing like movie goers back in IN.
https://mobile.twitter.com/alicialutes/status/1612724942520586240
While I enjoy the meltdown of less Hindu ethnicities to the movie Hindu imagery 😂😂
https://twitter.com/kookykarthik/status/1613040287525535745?s=46&t=wkGjNzZTO7HkziHsd-IPXg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_ZsIATmkHE
and the winner is singing song about jesus.
I did not see this before, but 4 Indian actresses, either married or have/had a white bf. what is happening?. Was this a cultural shift that happened that I did not notice?.zinta,chopra,saran, d’souza. ???.
All within a period of 10 yrs.
radhika apte as well. not a single black dude or middle eastern dude or asian dude or anything else. funny.
Indians girls becoming like East Asian girls 🤔
i just checked and the numbers are much more than that, i just saw few actors and thought, am i seeing a pattern, worse, some of these are not rich either. I think its clear, all those fair looks that go into making Indian actress lead them to look for same.
The mindset i changed as a 12 yrs old, i find it hard to believe most human beings like their biases and wont see to correct their thinking.
Apparently BH minister bad mouthing ram charitmanas
https://mobile.twitter.com/PoliticalKida/status/1613183866952634368
BHs making the transition from communist krantikaaris to woke krantikaaris.
https://twitter.com/MaliniP/status/1612867412411703296
‘For those in Tamilnadu of Tamil origin, which identity would you choose as your primary one if you had to choose one or the other below?
Indian
Tamil’
Interesting survey results
Will be similar in Punjab.
True for all less-Hindu regions
Plenty evidence of Tamil first, nation nowhere right next door.
Oh, dont u worry. That could soon be true on this side of the coast as well 😉
dont mind , let racists be racists , i am out of this topic, onto next one.
https://m.timesofindia.com/videos/toi-original/watch-hindu-temple-vandalised-in-australias-melbourne-by-pro-khalistan-supporters/videoshow/96939044.cms
Another one. Always BAPs
@Sumit
I dont respect humanities, arts/ cinema etc, they have highest % of lunatics.
Strong sentiments in Kannada Twitter against use of Hindi in public spaces. More and more 90s kids joining in and not just Vatal Nagaraj types.
At least 2-3 lateral factors in play – the Maharashtra intransigence in the border districts, cultural topics (Kannada vs Sanskrit) that get out of hand and…..more consistently we see a lot of national left wing media houses aligning behind Hindi speakers.
The last factor is roiling the local leftist scene as it prevents consolidation of its traditional vote blocs.
The issue will surely gather momentum into a hardball that Bommai will find it tough to tackle.
In time Kannada chauvinists will learn that the only viable road is full blown cultural revanchism (neither right-wing or left-wing) can provide a salve.
this is very fringe issue. normal kannadiga is not as agitated as a tamil on this issue. at time parties like jds are raising this issue and not getting much traction. there is bit of an irritation of the ‘new’ hindiwallas not learning kannada, an this is in bangalore only.
half the sate was under maratha rule or under the nizam of hyderbad and are aware ofthe hindi/persian words. generally not an issue.
On the language Vs Indian question, I suspect the question was deliberately framed that way. I suspect the results would be similar in all southern states, maybe even MH. However the results would flip if the question were framed as “do you agree that “X” language/culture is part of broader Indian civilization/culture?”.
Gangetic states will not see the difference because they don’t have to give up on their language as implied in the og question.
I doubt that answers would have flipped even for ‘“do you agree that “X” language/culture is part of broader Indian civilization/culture?”. Especially for this question.
We all know which ethnicities/languages we are talking about here. No one goes around saying it to Marathi or Telugu folks, even though they are not Hindi speaking folks, so ur assertion on Gangetic folks is wrong.
The question is specific to none/less-Hindu ethnicities.
30% of Gangetic folks will say they are Muslim first and only Ummah matters. Another 25% (Yadav’s/OBCs) will be ok with this and even support it.
BIMARU kangers have the most insidious political-cultural problem at home for several centuries. And they will go on fact finding missions to other regions to make themselves feel better!
Better 30 percent than 100 percent, No?
“Better 30 percent than…..”
Classic! Tells everything how a band of sheepstealers could reduce this region to servitude.
The impotence of Gangetic folks in building any sort of cultural project makes them fearful of the ones that do.
The only identity having valence in the Gangetic regions is caste. Which is why you have rapproachments like the Muslim – Yadav symbiosis rather than any sort of linguistic or ideological camps.
Well the Gangetic folks did create a culture. Indian/Hindu culture.
All other people are just catching up..
There is a reason why Shinde is the cm and not fadnavis. There was a kerfuffle on RRR twtr where Hindi speakers objected to Jagan and Rajamouli championing telugu cinema and pride.
Not sure why anyone is suprised? The idea of an Indian civilization might have existed for millenia but a strong state to enforce that notion has been a very rare feature in Indian history. The current one is only two generations old. So yeah, not everyone is going to put their broader identity(civilization, nation-state whatever) above their local/regional one. And this phenomenon is not even unique to India. You ask a Quebecois or a Welshman, if they prioritize their regional identity over national ones and they would say yes. And yet their respective nation-states survive. And those countries even have active separatist movements involved in the political process unlike in South India. Trying too hard to impose national identity over regional ones will only backfire.
‘So yeah, not everyone is going to put their broader identity(civilization, nation-state whatever) above their local/regional one.’
Well that’s true. But is there a correlation b/w folks from certain ethnicities putting their regional identities above their broader civilizational identities. While other ethnicities don’t.
I think there is.
https://twitter.com/AhneeMarek/status/1613117598039773184
‘RRR isn’t buzzing because innocent White Americans cannot get the anti-Native narrative and far-right ideas in the film, but because Hindu-chauvinist art has for long been a place where White audiences’ prejudices can comfortably hide in plain sight.
RRR does not differ much from Lagaan and its Oscar entry. White Mensahib innocence, casteist paternalism, majoritarian nationalism passing as anticolonial radicality…’
Superficially, he’s not wrong that white right-wing radicals have long been attracted to Hindutva or even Hinduism in general in a way they haven’t been to e.g. Islam. But I think forcing that narrative into RRR is silly. The reason why he does that is because he’s a white leftist so he feels he can’t talk on behalf of browns, so he tries to find a “white angle”. All part of intersectionality politics.
I suspect that most of the hostility towards RRR will come from woke brown types living in the diaspora. Indeed, this is already happening.
For India, any cultural push into the West will most likely face this stumbling bloc, namely that many “cultural brown critics” absolutely detest its government and will throw Indian films down the gutter if they have to in order to score political points. This is the problem when the right-wing cedes cultural space in the diaspora to activist woke types.
You see the same problem in East Asian cicles. They didn’t know how to react when most of the interracial violence in cities like NYC came from blacks, since all their narratives were based on evil Trump supporters rampaging trying to stage a fascist coup or whatever. The main difference between East Asians and South Asians is that the latter is far more heterogenous, which means there’s plenty of space reserved for “intra-group oppression” narratives. Indeed, we already see this with the Cisco case hyping and Brown University now adding caste to its official list of discriminatory practices. Expect these battles to transcend into the cultural realm, also.
‘I suspect that most of the hostility towards RRR will come from woke brown types living in the diaspora.’
I also see hostility towards RRR from certain ethnicities back in India as well. We all know which ethnicities i am talking about…
Definitely not us 😜. Telugu actors are being adored all over Cow-belt. Allu Arjun, Prabhas, Ram Charan are bonafide superstars in even village barber shops. They have surpassed Rajnikant and Chinranjeevi. Yash and Jr. NTR need a few more Hindi hits.
—
I think the first movie that ushered this change was Chattrapathi in 2005. It was qualitatively different from ‘Indra the tiger’ type poop Telugu cinema used to make.
Tamil cinema had a head start in creativity but Telugu cinema finally won and ate the cake.
—
I do buy the meta argument that higher GDP/capita leads to better cinema. Bengal did well in cinema before it went broke, Mumbai dominated for decades, Chennai flexed but…, Now it is Hyderabad and Bangalore’s turn.
—
“Well the Gangetic folks did create a culture. Indian/Hindu culture.”
The sheepstealers slapped the Gangetic kangers so hard they have now started thinking like them. UP is Mecca, Rgveda.pdf was written in their uncle’s house and Ganga is Zamzam.
Tamilnadu is 88% Hindu while UP is 80% (2011 census). Tamilnadu did not have religious trauma in the past, therefore no need for overt religious signalling. The predominant political culture creates and processes newer forms of mobilization (linguistic, socialistic, middle-caste hegemonies, cinematic idolization etc).
UP has a lot of visible and invisible damage to religiosity. Plus significant counter-mobilization within the Hindu communities (Yadavs/OBCs allying with Muslims against the UCs). There is just enough political energy for survival. None for cultural projects on non-religious lines.
All of this is the root of Saurav’s “less Hindu” rant. Basically a “shirk” type worldview where he processes the incomprehensible political cultures of other Indian regions into the binary of his own region’s faultline.
“ Tamilnadu is 88% Hindu “
LOL
I guess, non-hindu Tamils will be visiting “non-hindu” Temples and celebrating Pongal(a non hindu festival) on Sunday.
ugra, whom do you speak for?. Not telugu or kannada or maharastra or malyalam. For all talk of south/north, kerala on demographic issue is much worse. And they didnt face mughals in such a sustained way.
And there is nothing TN people possessed socially or technologically that could have helped repel the invaders. Their only luck is geography and that others on the north fought and resisted. But are too dumb and arrogant not to respect the sacrifices made.
Tamil chauvinism irks all other south Indians as well, be it telugus, kannadas or malyalis as well. The only ones who fought are marathas and sikhs, the rest were not good enough. Thats the reality. Whether it be martial warfare or even Independence movement.
There was very little contribution from south in determining its own future, its future, was gifted by those who fought for Independence and those who fought invasions. The reality is this that south essentially wasted away over past 4 to 5 centuries and achieved nothing of significance.
One can understand lack of development in north, but what of south?. Why did they so easily fall to british, why is it that they achieved nothing of worth culturally or technologically. Because they were too dumb and arrogant to not care. Intelligence is to learn from others pain.
In the world of ugra, there is no merit in valuing nelson mandela or martin luther king jr, there is no merit in opposing racism either because that is not tamil history. And what is not in tamil history is useless. And any one who were conquered were weak and useless anyway. But that is a typical tamil mind , brainwashed and take pride in their own brainwashing. After all, why work to learn from others when it is easy to arrogate one’s own luck as one’s superiority.
An average person learns from own mistakes,intelligent people learn from others as well. I hope for intelligence, its not there right now.
Endearing video of a BH guy explaining to a woke kraantikari why BH needs temples just like south India
https://mobile.twitter.com/seriousfunnyguy/status/1613540683062849537
The consistent thing about ugra is that he is a chauvinist linguistically and also caste, religion is an after thought. The way to deal with them is not to feed them and self reinforce chauvinism on all sides.
A common language makes a common nation. The concept of a nation state was conceptualized in Europe and was basically based on a strong linguistic identity, where language literally is the basis of most countries. When applying and imposing this idea of a sovereign unitary modern nation state on other non-European regions with diverse sets of linguistic traditions contained within those geographical boundaries, it has only been a cause of strife and division.
The British created Indian nationalism indirectly by promoting the use of the mass language ‘Hindustani’ in regions where other local rural languages were commonly spoken. Hindi has been replacing and absorbing these local languages and the regions that adopted it are the regions that are most nationalistic (according to Saurav)
However Hindi faces resistance in areas where the British did not make Hindustani the official language (Bengal, Madras, Bombay Province, Sindh) and these areas are more insular, and seem have less time for the ‘nation’.
Interestingly Pew did a survey in Pakistan about ethnic vs national identification few years ago, and it seems to agree with my theory.. the survey was done in urban areas (where Urdu is primary language) so one should take it with a grain of salt, but Sindh being an outlier in Pakistan aligns with the fact that Hindustani was not made the official language here.
https://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2009/08/Pakistan-2009-13.png
Qureshi,
There is the european concept of nation formalized at treaty of westphalia 1848. Worth noting how european nations are themselves re-integrating in to EU.
Anyway, we Bharatiyas have our own native traditions of a civilization. It is messy to get it working but there is enough critical mass to keep it going. Tbf none of our subcontinental neighbors who have gone the route of ethno linguistic state have come out as shining sustainable examples. From what I can gather by your earlier arguments — economic growth does not matter as long Ms out breed Hs in the subcontinent, Hs can build the cake, Ms will have it. Your scenario has a non-zero chance of success but that is not an argument for IN to desist from doing it the right and hard way.
Ms will outbreed Hs but in India that might take a couple of centuries and who knows what happens till then? At this point, bigger problem in India is that NIs will outbreed SIs and take the cake. And this seems to concern many SIs.
Anyway I’m just commenting that language is the basis for culture and most of divisions present. It is a powerful tool that can unite as well as divide.
People tend to over look it and unduly blame religion or race/ethnicity.
NIs have always been more numerous than SIs. The coming delimitation exercise in 2026 will be contentious and there will be many parties queering the pitch but I am sure a workable solution will be worked out. As for fiscal transfers, there is in fact wider acceptance of toilet, running water and home construction programs. The overwhelming portion of beneficiaries are NIs. The only sticking points are language/sub-cultures. Again I believe these are easily solvable.
I take your point about language being an important part but my point is that it is not sufficient. European concept of a nation consisting of a single language worked well when small nations like Portugal and Belgium had huge resources rich colonies in Asia and Africa. The moment the age of colonies came to an end in the aftermath of WW 2, the EU was born.
This is the only card Pakistanis (think they) have. Just like they use to chant Nuclear-Nuclear-Nuclear not that long ago.
—
Trad twitter has the most interesting ideas and wittiest memes. Some include:
1) Scathing criticism of BJP. Hilarious takedowns of Modi.
2) Advocating active and incessant destabilization of Pakistan.
3) Stats on OBC-OBC, OBC-Dalit, violence.
4) Shitting on Hindutva ‘sluts’ like that big-tit tarot lady and that onlyfan girl Kamya that Vineet from Indic Explorer (BP) interviewed.
5) Shitting on pro Hindutva foreigners.
—
Trads can shout all they want but they can’t do anything without BJP.
Despite the occasional V.P. Singh amongst them, NI Thakur trads might pull something big off if Yogi wins. They have muscle, cohesion and genuine will to dominate. I consider Thakurs are already 10X what Khalistanis can ever hope to be. The most bakchod amongst trads are urban NI Bamans. The problem with non land owning NI Bamans i.e. Sharma-Vajpayee-Tiwari types is that they can’t pull the trigger. Their need to sound a certain way is strong. IMO Bengalis are B/C-grade NI Bamans, that is why they are so irritating and conceited.
I do think Narasimha Rao was the best PM of India. If Tamils were not so universally disliked maybe even Kamaraj would have made a good PM.
@Saurav
“Well that’s true. But is there a correlation b/w folks from certain ethnicities putting their regional identities above their broader civilizational identities. While other ethnicities don’t.
I think there is.”
This is true. In all countries that are a union of different ethnic and religious groups, one group is always more invested in the national project than others. This group will generally suppress its own nationalism in favor of a broader civic nationalism. In the UK, its the English, in Canada, its the Anglophones, in the US, its the White Protestants and so on. Failed examples, include Germans in Austria-Hungary and Serbs in Yugoslavia.
In India’s case, there is no doubt that the “core” group is Hindi speaking North Indian Hindus. But they will just have to take one for the team and be ok with chauvinism from other ethnic and religious groups while not displaying their own chauvinism or God forbid impose it on other groups. It sucks for them and might even be unfair but North Indian Hindus can take comfort in that they are not the only ones who have to deal with this. As said before, English in the UK, Anglophones in Canada and White Protestants in the US have to deal with the same thing. Otherwise the national project will fail as the Austrian Germans and Yugoslav Serbs found out the hard way.
HJ,
Sincere question. What are the concrete damages caused by Tamil nationalism to the wider Indian nationalism project?
As long as there are no violent separatist groups, Tamil nationalism should be able to coexist with the Indian state. Of course, if such groups emerge, they should be cracked down. Most people will be ok with that. The rising middle class values security and stability.
Peaceful and democratic political movements that espouse nationalism can be co-opted into the political process at state and national levels. There will be grumbles but the Indian state will be fine. Harsh crackdowns on peaceful political parties on the other hand by the national government will alienate the populace and cause serious issues. India being such a geographically and demographically large country means that Indian nationalism will never be as uniformly widespread as in a small homogeneous country.
But on the whole, the Indian state has done ridiculously well. As I said before, it doesn’t have a long history so its remarkable, how little separatism actually exists in India given the stark linguistic differences between the various states.
Relevant map about whether Europeans are more attached to their region, country or Europe.
https://vividmaps.com/europeans/amp/
A lot of these “problems” are not unique to India.
HJ,
Thank you and my point exactly. On the contrary TN has been providing economic surplus alongwith GJ, MH, TL and KA. My quibble then is your using rhetorical excesses of Tamil sub-nationalism as an excuse to characterize NIs as core group, while condoning “more hindu” rhetoric of NIs. By this rhetorical sleight of hand, you not only downgraded Tamils but other non-Tamil and non-hindi speakers to 2nd class status.
According to NakedCapitalism links on Jan 12, this was a must read. I agree. Would add the same (as in collapse) for the US, 1.2 million deaths deaths and not an issue.
——-
Watching Britain turn into what it is now — the first rich European country to become a failed state, which in itself is mind-boggling — is to witness something historic.
Britain’s different. It had…everything. I mean that. It had everything that a modern society could wish for, and then some. It used to be the envy of the world. Until a decade ago — just ten years — the NHS was the world’s best healthcare system.
Right about now, Britain’s own finer minds have estimated that there have been 25,000 excess deaths because…the NHS has collapsed.
Why Britain’s (Severely) Underestimating British Collapse
Post-Brexit Britain’s Collapse Is So Extreme, It’s Genuinely Unprecedented
https://eand.co/why-britains-severely-underestimating-british-collapse-4d5f50550c62
Some of his points are valid, most of it is overblown but his writing is definitely cringe.
But all of his initial points regarding health and economy are just a cover for his real gripe, which he drops at the end. That Britain is xenophobic. I guess taking in hundreds of thousands of immigrants from all over the world is not enough for Mr Haque. Standard for someone like him. His other posts are similarly targeted at Western right wing. You used to see a lot of these takes 5-10 years ago when the War on Terror was still relevant but its getting rarer nowadays.
Hyperbole
HJ
There was a similar article on the NHS by Danny Dorling, a British social geographer and is the Halford Mackinder Professor of Geography of the School of Geography and the Environment of the University of Oxford.
A&E (Accident and Emergency) delays are ‘killing up to 500 people a week’”.
This figure – 5% above the normal number of people who die each week, though that baseline is also rising – can surely be traced back to the act, which ushered in a greater wave of privatisation than ever before. It compelled NHS management to behave as if they were in the private sector, competing to win business, and led to an increase in the proportion of contracts won and the use of contracts overall.
By 2019, life expectancy for women had fallen in almost a fifth of all neighbourhoods and in over a tenth for men. Poorer people, both old and young, in poorer areas suffered most, with infant mortality among babies born to the poorest parents rising. Later there was a rise in deaths of women who were pregnant.
Again, the damage was not so much through the extent of covert privatisation, but through the wider ethos that had been promoted. Take the USA: most of the enormous amount of money spent on healthcare there has little impact on improving health, because the ethos is wrong.
How Austerity Caused the NHS Crisis
https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2023/01/how-austerity-caused-the-nhs-crisis.html
@HJ
‘But they will just have to take one for the team and be ok with chauvinism from other ethnic and religious groups while not displaying their own chauvinism or God forbid impose it on other groups. ‘
Well what have been N-Indians being doing apart from ‘taking one for the team’ all these years?
My argument is NI patience is wearing thin. The other Indians have to step up now. We are done dealing with the shit and mollycoddling other Indians. Now we do what we want. And if that irks other Indians, or make them feel ‘2nd class citizen’ or whatever, then so be it.
That in a nutshell is the rise of the BJP/Modi.
[email protected], [email protected],
Sincerely…Please list the pain points or damage caused by Tamils, and/or by other SIs that you had to mollycoddle.
Tamils damaged their egos by rejecting Hindi&Hindutva lol
… and Hinduism.
Go the whole hog, man
@Saurav TN has the most temples in all of India, by saying “Tamils are not Hindu”, the only thing you’re taking away from us is a trivial Persian exonym. UNESCO won’t deem the Chola Temples unworthy if its not called Hindu.
BJPites tend to throw a tantrum and call Tamils Anti-Hindu, because we don’t accept their Islam related Historical Grievances. Look, you guys can either learn from the past and bounce back like the japs after WW2 Or you can wallow&stew in this “Hindu Victimhood Identity” like the BLM folks. Most Indians are over colonialism, we’ve made UK our trade partners and English the official language of India. Does this mean that we’ve forgotten the atrocities? No, but we also don’t hold onto it and use the resentment as the basis for our National Identity.
Its heartening to see that its not just the less-Hindu ethnicities of the subcontinent who are facing an identity crisis
Bruh, you folks don’t even see yourselves as an ethnicity, you yourself are only obsessed with gatekeeping the Hindu Identity lol Adding to what @HJ said, Cowbelt has always acted as the laboratory for “National Projects”, whether it be Nehru’s Ganga-Jamuni-Tehzeeb or Savarkar’s Hindutva. Aside from Hindutva, i can’t think of a common historical narrative for Cowbelt in the same way Sangam Era is for Tamils. Marwari&Awadi speakers don’t see each others as any closer than say, any other Hindi speaking Indian.
‘UNESCO won’t deem the Chola Temples unworthy if its not called Hindu.’
Forget UNESCO, do Tamils themselves see Cholas as Hindus? First clear it out among yourselves.
https://www.dailyo.in/entertainment/were-the-cholas-hindu-or-not-decoding-the-history-behind-the-kamal-haasan-ps1-controversy-37540
‘Aside from Hindutva, i can’t think of a common historical narrative for Cowbelt in the same way Sangam Era is for Tamils. ‘
Bro, again . We gave this country its identity, and its religion. We can rest a bit, you would say. Let others pick up some slack.
well seriously yes,
one more bjp term in centre and dmk out of power in centre will be disastrous for them.
karunanidhi would have found a way to worm back into modi’s good books.
our wig raja is not that savvy and the fringe ‘tamil nationalists’ have have taken power.
[email protected]
You are talking about loss of Tamil bargaining chip due to single party government in Delhi. Coalition government relying on Tamil and/or telugu parties was true only from 89-2014. Language chauvinism was present even earlier as well when Congress dominated center. Even then TN development trajectory has been better right from the beginning. I don’t see how Tamils are blocking NIs. Is the assumption that they consistently vote for regional Tamil parties reason enough to brand them separatists?
Seriously this mentality is not good for anyone. I am glad the modi/bjp don’t subscribe to this mentality.
In fact Tamil opinion has been generally appreciative of modi government line in the rus-ukr war. It was very satisfying to read the dejection of nyt opinion columnist who had to quote a Chennai businessman who approved the government handling of the situation.
Carnival a la Sri Lanka
This is a perahera a “Buddhist Procession” in the Deep South.
What is to be noted
a) The horn sections of the different groups.
I mean each group has its own horn section
b) You can spot the different groups by the designs on the sarongs
c) Whats with the deep south Sinhalese, they love the horns and drums.
Devundara perahera kavadi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCniK078ZrQ
This is the daytime perahera
Note
a) the extra tall “women” at 4:16 mins
b) the “women on horses” at 6:27 mins
Mirissa Perahera Festival 2019
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5lqtAbb1xw
The endless needless chauvinism we see here is a sign of low brain power. Try better guys. If something is wrong, point it out. i point to problem with bihar,but dont taunt or make snide remarks, have constructive criticism.
To Bhumiputra,
1. The foundation for tamilnadu’s development was laid by British and subsequent Congress govt. Once the Dravidian became ruling class the development is patchy.
2. Intellectually Tamil has stagnated. Kannada 6 jnanapeeta Awards Vs. 2 for Tamil.
3. The Dravidian speak in double endrand as far as separatisim goes. This will be called out by others sooner than later. This time has come.
4. The outward movement of Tamils to other states has reduced. This has made them very inward looking.
1. tamilians will say their tank irrigation system predated british. not my area of expertise. TN has dravidian governments since 69 and has maintained the lead while improving HDI.
2. None of our (kannadiga’s) business and good for us. I trust tamilians to realize that and focus on producing cultural output. afaik they have not stopped Hindi or any other language speakers to produce good literature or music.
3. not sure what specific double standards you have in mind. The fact is that in 62 war, even DMK gave up its nominally separatist demand. Even now, public opinion is broadly supportive of IN’s foreign policy line in the RUS-UKR war. Beyond that they are aggressive/touchy with their language. But that does not justify grouping them with Punjabi separatism. We kannadigas already have water sharing and other issues with TN. I for one don’t want to import the Punjabi-Poorbiya dynamic down south and make things worse.
4. Seriously, a people are being dinged for being happy and content in their own home state?
The only ppl who have a genuine gripe with periyar politics are TamBrahms.
TN does “seem” to have issues with influence of church esp with DMK gov. But that applies to AP as well. That partly explains traction that bjp/annamalai and admk are getting. The final outcome is not known. The best Hindus/Dharmics in other states can do is not go around calling Tamils lesser Hindus.
calling ppl lesser H’s is bad and i did call out on that before as well.
“ The best Hindus/Dharmics in other states can do is not go around calling Tamils lesser Hindus.“
There is a reason why the CAA does not cover Tamils from Lanka. The most recently affected people due to any civil war: while it covers even Bengalis.
You know where they lie in the totem pole. No one needs to say it. Everyone know it’s. And some like HJ accept it.
I don’t think you understand the true purpose of CAA. It’s all about disenfranchising illegal muslim immigrants from PAK/BD, who will never vote for BJP. And keep them as bargaining chips for any future negotiations. SL, Tibet would have been included if there is a chance of Muslims from these places immigrating to India.
They don’t give af about Hindus from the neighborhood. It’s a minuscule number to make a difference to the BJP votebank. Actually, minorities from PAK/BD don’t need CAA at all – current rules already allow them to legally immigrate and naturalize in India. But nobody cares about them – proof is the Pak Hindus refugees settled near Delhi for decades – they don’t even have electricity, forget about citizenship. India is not Israel.
SL Hindus who want to be here (Civil war refugees) and should be here (Hill tamils) are already here. SL Tamils have better places to go like Canada, UK, Norway etc.
Bro, my folks brought the CAA. Rest assured i understand it totally. Though i oppose it fully, but not for the reasons widely touted about.
What you are talking about ‘disenfranchising illegal muslim immigrants’ is NRC and not CAA. But you are right in one thing , there are bargaining chips, just that it not the muslims, but the Hindus (PB, Sindhi and Bengali) of these other countries. Vote for citizenship. Simple.
Since the Bengali Hindus didn’t vote the BJP, there is no CAA for them. What i want to point out that the BJP and the larger Hindutva movement does not even consider Tamil Hindus in their consideration within the ambit of such useless bill. That shows them their position.
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/tamil-nadu/are-sri-lankan-tamils-not-hindus-asks-stalin/article30314508.ece
‘Are Sri Lankan Tamils not Hindus, asks Stalin’
@brown, @bhumiputra,
1. Tank irrigation in TN (and large parts of Southern Kerala) is a thousand years old, dates to the Late Chola period, and continuously improved during Nayak, Maratha, British eras. In the Cauvery delta you can find water rights that go back centuries.
2. Tamil literature is healthier than ever – footfalls on book fairs even in second rung towns are testament to this. There was a mass daily reading movement during the COVID lockdown period. I think you may not have heard about Venmurasu – a Mahabharatha novelization – longest novel in the world, written in the last decade.
IMHO JP awards are not a great yardstick for vitality. Why do I say that? Politics. You expect SL Bhyrappa to ever get JP award? I say politics because one of the two JP recipients for Tamil (Akilan) doesn’t deserve it. And two others who deserve it and more (Ashokamitran and Ki Rajanarayanan) were never considered at all – they both are certainly better than someone like Kambara.
Tamil performing arts are not doing great (except Bharatanatyam), when compared to say Kathakali or Yakshagana.
3. I just don’t get this TN separatism talk at all. Sounds like non-Tamil people make a huge hue and cry about TN separatism more than TN people. Let me make it clear – there is zero ground level support for separatism, whatever little there was was gone after Rajiv/1991. Q branch and other state intelligence agencies have done a great job in eliminating any fringe separatist elements – be it Maoists, Linguistic separatists or radical islamists. Sabre rattling by DMK is just that – they will shut up as soon as they make a deal with BJP and become a part of the ruling dispensation in the centre.
No one gives a damn about TN separatism or exceptionalism. Nor will the DMK be a part of the centre, or Modi allow it. There will be cold peace b/w them.
What you see is the rise of N-Indian supremacism who have for long resisted throwing their weight around. Which has irked the other ethnic/language supremacists who thought they had the only right to play that card. The BJP leads the former, while the opposition/Congress leads the latter.
Both Karuna and MGR/Jaya laid down the industrial oriented pipeline of TN as we see it today. Congress under Rajaji, Kamaraj got basics right.
Most UPwallahs (subalterns, OBCs) and other North groups have a grudging admiration of TN Dravidianism.
It is a middle caste hegemonic force that has controlled both UCs and Dalit resurgence from spinning out of control. Communists don’t get too much traction and Congress remains a trained lapdog.
Everywhere else, especially in the Gangetic Belt – Yadav’s and subalterns are out of control, communists destroyed Kolkata (a premier Asian hub) and most politicos are anti-industry. Clusterfuck after clusterfuck.
Tamilnadu gets approximately 45000 crores of internal investment annually from the North Indian hinterland. People know a safe haven when they see one.
The maritime industriousness of the last millennia is unchanged in TN. Modernity has a different set of challenges – subaltern resurgence, eurocentric dogmas (communism, socialism) make governance very tough.
It is not easy to become one of the Top 4 of India (Maha, Guj, Kar) without bipartisan commitment to industry and urbanisation. The Dravidian plank is a concordat – every social group knows what they are getting out of it.
Addendum:
I also consider it a great Providence that the three former Leaders of TN – Kamaraj, Karuna and MGR did not complete middle school or just high school. They were blessed with a earthy no-nonsense intelligence that allowed for a great foresight.
When I look at the Gangetic leaders of the same period, Lohia went to Germany, JP went to Wisconsin and Jyoti Basu went to London for their studies!!
The middle caste revolution was truly one of applied praxis rather than the upper caste mode of endless knowledge acquisition.
Being a tamil, don’t use words like providence. You will be called out here as a crypto xian. 🙂
Wait , aren’t Tamils that already? 😉
#ugra,
it is a middle caste hegemonic force that has controlled both UCs and Dalit resurgence from spinning out of control.
yes, this is dravidianism.
for some reason, this has not taken deep roots in karnataka, as probably one of the middle castes- Lingayats have an identity problem. are they shudras? or protestant brahmins led mid caste groups?
in kerala since the middle castes- ezvas and nairs control the hindu narrative.
[email protected]
Afaik the aradhyas claim to be “Protestant” Brahmins. The other jangamas don’t. One reason might be lingayats at least historically didn’t care much about getting higher ritual status from Brahmins. All the milestone rituals were conducted by jangamas + dasa aoha (community dining) meant a fairly cohesive but largely insular community. This was true of north KA. But these days things are changing as more lingayats are moving to urban areas.
Regardless the friction and competition between Bs and farming castes is endemic throughout IN, both north and south. In KL, I believe the caste conflict shows up as party conflict between communist ezhavas and rss/nairs. Ofc this is complicated by presence of large percentage of Ms and Cs.
Death Squads killing civilians=War Crimes
All the countries that participated in the Afgan War would be accessories. i.e. UK, Canada, Australia, NZ etc
Nothing is going to happen,no one will be held accountable*. As they say in Sri Lanka, “The goods are of the Chief, and the Laws are of the Chied”. Baduth Hamu ge,nithyath hamu ge.
*The US, UK and Canada will meanwhile accuse small countries of war crimes and act as judge and jury.
Excerpts
At least 452 civilians were killed in 107 raids. This number is almost certainly an undercount.
The Afghan soldiers weren’t alone on the raids; U.S. special operations forces soldiers working with the C.I.A. often joined them.
A troubling number of raids appear to have relied on faulty intelligence by the C.I.A
Military planners baked potential “collateral damage” into the pre-raid calculus — how many women/children/noncombatants were at risk if the raid went awry,
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/detailed-report-exposes-cia-backed-zero-units-afghanistan
Also read the investigating authors life story
https://www.propublica.org/article/afghanistan-night-raids-zero-units-lynzy-billing
South Indian Brahmin groups seem to have a higher chance of having light eyes than other groups…
I’m not even one so I’m not one to be biased btw just an observation because even random people seem to have it and I don’t go looking for the light eyed types either.
https://www.dawn.com/news/1731742/how-the-indus-valley-fed-islams-golden-age
🤮
Its heartening to see that its not just the less-Hindu ethnicities of the subcontinent who are facing an identity crisis. There are now less-muslim ethnicities who are trying to link themselves with Arabia. 😂😂😂
@saurav
> Bro, my folks brought the CAA. Rest assured i understand it totally. Though i oppose it fully, but not for the reasons widely touted about. What you are talking about ‘disenfranchising illegal muslim immigrants’ is NRC and not CAA.
Since your folks brought the CAA, you should know about the CAA-NRC-NPR combo. Chronology Samajye. Listen to Amit Shah.
> What i want to point out that the BJP and the larger Hindutva movement does not even consider Tamil Hindus in their consideration within the ambit of such useless bill. That shows them their position.
Who brings a legislation to slyly slight a specific demographic – this is politics, not a middle school playground. Even if BJP really wants to slight Tamil Hindus they would come out and say so, the way they do when their legislation is specifically targeting Muslims (see Amit Shah Chronology, Yogi 80/20). And what does BJP gain by slighting Tamils – will BJP vote share in UP increase just because BJP showed the uppity Tamils their place.
I will take your Tamil slight theory seriously if SL Tamil Hindus were the only group excluded. But Bhutan, Tibet and Myanmar are also excluded – Hindus in Bhutan are actually a persecuted group. Same with Tibetan Buddhists. So this is not some Dharmic minority saviour act, it’s just a no-vote-for-muslim-fence-jumpers act.
Stalin is just playing to the gallery – we know India doesn’t care about poor Hindus from the neighborhood, doesn’t matter if they are SL Hindus, PB/Sindhi hindus from Pak or Bengali hindus from BD.
> No one gives a damn about TN separatism or exceptionalism.
You seem to give a damn. TN people don’t and I was contextualizing about it only with brown, bhumiputra in this thread.
> Nor will the DMK be a part of the centre, or Modi allow it. There will be cold peace b/w them.
There is cold peace already if you haven’t noticed. DMK have stopped directly attacking natl BJP leadership and ED/CBI are nowhere to be seen in TN (DMK family have done plenty in 2 years to attract ED).
I think it’s all about the numbers. For LS 2024, to make up for any shortfall in RJ, BH, MP, KA, HP etc, BJP will take along anybody, including DMK (they have done it before), same way they have taken along Akalis before and other separatist parties of yore from NE. Neither DMK nor BJP are a principled lot.
Again the bill was not brought in to slight Tamil Hindus. Why do u folks, always think that you are so important?
The point is that Tamil Hindus are so immaterial in Hindutva calculation that EVEN the Bengalis sort of pip them from the bottom. That the BJP could have included Tamil Hindus in this useless bill, (which i am pretty sure would not be implemented anyway), and it would not have mattered, but still didn’t.
Plus on NRC, you seem to put a lot of weight on Amit Shah’s words. Let me present you someone, who’s words sort of weigh tad bit heavily than Shah.
https://indianexpress.com/article/india/pm-narendra-modi-citizenship-amendment-law-nrc-bjp-campaign-delhi-6179940/
‘PM Narendra Modi: No talk of NRC at all, lies being spread about detention centres’
When people talk about the cultural clash between BIMARU India and Non-BIMARU India they often overlook a surprising aspect of Hindi pop culture. Since Hindi is the most widely spoken language in India, outsiders automatically assume that Hindi speaking states form the core cultural group of India. This is a reasonable assumption since the culture associated with a particular language is usually produced by the native speakers of that language. However, Hindi is a striking exception to this rule. If you look at the famous actors, directors, or playback singers of Bollywood, it’s easy to see that almost all of them are Punjabis, Urdu speaking Muslims, Bengalis, Maharashtrians or South Indians. Indian pop culture is essentially the culture of Non-BIMARU states, and BIMARU India, despite having all the native speakers, is almost invisible even in the Hindi cultural sphere.
Why does this happen ? Why can’t BIMARU India compete with the states where Hindi is spoken as a second or third language ?
IMD is setting Doppler Weather radar network.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/entire-india-to-be-covered-under-doppler-weather-radar-network-for-better-forecast-by-2025/articleshow/97011410.cms?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=TOIDesktop
Long overdue. I think ISRO weather forecasting just does not provide the granularity or frequency to be of any practical use for most people. Not sure why this was not prioritized before. Limited money for tech projects in IN further gets wasted on lot of pet white elephant projects.
https://tribune.com.pk/epaper/news/Karachi/2023-01-13/MTdlYTNkZDVmZGU5ZjZiMjAzMzNhN2VlNGUzMWE4YzkucG5n
PK columnist rueful that Modi has made them irrelevant.
I remember congress+intellectuals scaring us that IN will become like Hindu PK😄 if we voted for Hindu taliban aka bjp.
Justin Trudeau wishing a hearty Thai Pongal!
https://twitter.com/JustinTrudeau/status/1614626295090151430
Fuck this blackface wearing clown, he backed khalistani “Farmer Protests” and then went 1984 on Candian Truckers.
https://twitter.com/sreenivasanbr/status/1614607741355708419?s=46&t=jD2CUKvmHAWRgSRV5XhFfw
“ DMK’s efforts to de-Hinduize #Pongal and make it Samathuva Pongal will be roundly defeated like how it’s attempt to change the Hindu Tamil New Year from 14th April to Pongal day has been defeated. Pongal was, is and will be a Hindu Festival celebreated by Tamils. “
Why in the 88 percent hindu land , a Hindu festival being de – Hinduized
Interesting. 🤔
Pognal is not “De-hinduized”, its being Secularied and its a good thing. We get to culturally assimilate Xtians&Muslims into our culture that way. This is not any different from Christmas in the west being turned into a “Secular” holiday that even non-chrsitians&atheists celebrate.
Here’s a fun thought, wouldn’t it be neat if Muslim Biharis celebrated Holi? Well, we got our Muslims celebrate Tamil Makar Sankranti.
You do not need to fight me or justify anything. Just accept it. It’s not like we can change anything. The minimum one expects is to alteast be truthful to the ground realities.
Plus it’s not like regions which were erstwhile hindu areas haven’t converted to non Hindu areas.
“ wouldn’t it be neat if Muslim Biharis celebrated Holi? Well, we got our Muslims celebrate Tamil Makar Sankranti.”
Punjabi Muslims used to celebrate Basant, look how well that is going.
Non-Hindus are free to participate in Hindu festivals, but at a basic level of courtesy they need to acknowledge that it is a Hindu festival.
If their religion prohibits them from participating in Hindu festivals that is their problem.
It doesn’t follow that we should secularize our festivals
“This is not any different from Christmas in the west being turned into a “Secular” holiday that even non-chrsitians&atheists celebrate.”
No. This is like Germans saying Weihnachten (German Christmas Eve) is a secular German festival rather than Christian.
Major festivals like Diwali are already quite secular in India.
Fuck secular festivals, this is capitalist propaganda. No compromise. Ek dhnag ki cheez hai Hinduism mein, woh bhi hagg do… I will trade 100 Christmas for 1 Chhath or Ganesh Chaturthi. I don’t want gora or mulla people in my festivals, just give me the old school deal. These stupid ideas always come from folks who don’t give even 11 rupay to a temple and have to think fifty times about touching feet of the temple Pandit ji or first gen working Indian women in 20s-30s-40s who consider festivals as chores. Thankfully my milieu is free of this disease so far.
I think similarly about weddings too. Dowry is almost dead which is excellent. But I hate the court marriages or muted ceremonies Indians do in the US and sometimes even in India. I have seen such lame Hindu weddings in the past five years… Depressing. Spend atleast some money on weddings folks, have fun with friends and family, life is short. Chindi-pana is not enlightenment.
My UP school friends are doing ‘destination’ weddings in Coimbatore, Mysore, Kerala, …
Lamest ceremonies I have ever seen, no one knows what the fuck is going on, feels like some college party. Some Madraasi pandit ji who is too nice to shout at the North Indian late-arrival/drunk/giggling dulha and enforce muhurat, a dulhan who is more interested in Instagram. Wannabe parents who want to ape Bollywood. NO old people to help Pandit ji with their jati-varna-regional customs, no folk songs, no dholak, no harmonium… Wannabe Chutiyapa
I would always happily pay for solid old school ceremonies over any Arya Samaji or ‘Bollywood-style’ nonsense.
There used to be some talk of Indian Americans “regression to the mean” in terms of IQ.
Well that’s seems to be wrong (when looking at poor fathers 25%-tile income and comparing with their sons, Indian and Chinese Americans do the best on avg the sons are 65th percentile )
Quick image:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FmYGrmzaMAAl6aE?format=png&name=900×900
More in depth:
https://bcf.princeton.edu/events/leah-boustan-on-streets-of-gold-americas-untold-story-of-immigrant-success/
obv 30 years ago. only midwit racists believed this
people will say “selective migration.” that has some truths. but they ignore all the chain migration decedents also doing well. But yeah the midwits and morons still troll with “82” a lot.
Semi-related…
https://thewinnower.com/papers/estimating-the-genotypic-intelligence-of-populations-and-assessing-the-impact-of-socioeconomic-factors-and-migrations
Gujus didn’t do bad on this.
>“ wouldn’t it be neat if Muslim Biharis celebrated Holi?
Holi was generally celebrated by Muslims during the Mughal era, but the practice fell out during British rule.
> Punjabi Muslims used to celebrate Basant, look how well that is going.
Basant was banned in Punjab for increasing number of deaths.. (and rightly so) it was just unsafe to go out anywhere on a motorcycle in Feb. In Sindh, it is still celebrated since less number of people are doing it so it’s not as dangerous. I remember it being quite common here during our childhood, but these days not so much. Kids have other activities now to keep them preoccupied.
Earlier many birds used to die too after being entangled. Solution is to ban glass coated manjha and nylon yarn and use cotton ‘saddi’ only.
I had a lot of fun kite running as a child. I was never a good duelist or talented at flying a kite with no wind.
“Kids have other activities now to keep them preoccupied.”
Chutiye hain saale… kha-kha ke maida, gainde ho rahe hain. Baatein banayenge gym, e-sports, fala dhikana… pehenenge 4 number ka chashma
glasscoated manja was banned even before but its easy to make and sell, thus hard to enforce. Pecha larana is the essence of basant .. but with increasing population, urbanization and electrification.. flying kites enmasse is just not feasible in the cities. the government tries to set up parks for that activity but nobody really follows this.
Uttaryan is a big deal in Gujarat or cities with a lot of Gujaratis like Mumbai. And has a crazy amount of kite flying.
Was on Jan 14/ 15 so just a couple of days ago.
Lots of more dangerous festivals in India than that (Diwali, Holi, Muharram, Dahi Handi etc).
Not sure about Pakistan, but I tend to think it is semirelated to general purification of non-Islamic cultural elements with public safety used as cover.
if you follow PK english dailies, you know that favorite trick of establishment to show that they are liberal is to organize a “managed” basant festival in Lahore 🙂
But (with keeping up with the comment section), is Basant a Hindu festival, a muslim festival, a Sikh festival or a ‘secular’ festival?
All cool things are Hindu by default.
Sumit
6 people killed, 3 chidlren got their throats slit, 176 people injured just over last weekend in Gujrat.
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/6-killed-176-injured-in-kite-flying-incidents-during-uttarayan-festival-in-gujarat-470920
I don’t see people dying like this in Diwali or Muharram. It’s upto local governments to ban it or not.. In Pakistan, the ban has resulted in kids looking for other activities, which to be frank is fine by me.. kite flying is not really a physical activity, so if some kid switches over to video games not a big deal.
Islam has nothing to do with this. adults have switched over to celebrating new years in Pakistan these days..
https://www.indiatoday.in/world/story/people-killed-dozens-unconscious-suffocation-muharram-procession-pakistan-sindh-1985472-2022-08-08
true
I don’t see Muharram surviving in it’s current form for very long, it will eventually become a elaborate event like Dandiya or village Numaish+Dangal:
(a) Not fun at all. Hardcore (the flailing not the wailing) energy yes, fun no.
(b) Too much organizational effort required. Go/no-go areas, need for large police escort, book road for event, weather…
(c) Iran in terminal decline. All the Iranian-cleric type fancy dress Maulana-sa’ab no longer carry that ‘aura’.
(d) Sunnis don’t approve of it. High probability of Shia-Sunni rioting.
Processions are slowly becoming less intense. Tajias are becoming more elaborate and kitschy. I think eventually Muharram in India will become elaborate parades.
—
Barelvis urs with accompanying mela can be good family fun.
Muharram is going to continue like this.. Shias love reveling in their victimhood and make it a point to spread that narrative everywhere, and its so deeply ingrained in them that they find it hard to let go. I knew several “atheist” Shias who were always at the forefront of Muharram processions. Many of them cursed Islam but wrote love poetry for Ali and Hussain. It was cognitive dissonance at its peak. They are probably on the”moral side” of Islamic history so this explains the dissonance.
Morality and Muhammad’s ilk…
Ali had sex slaves…
—
But this communal facts aside. I just meant Muharram processions are becoming tame as years go by. It will not disappear, why should it? but Muharram processions are transforming in front of us. More of wailing, less of walking on fire, flailing, and bleeding.
I am not trying to insult anyone. I watch videos of people ceremonial Maatam, and can’t help but enjoy the nautanki.
—
‘Tatbir’ (the flailing, the beating, the walking on fire stuff) is all Haram. Khomeini, Khameni, Sistani, Shirazi, etc.. they all forbade it specifically because it causes bodily harm. It was always a fringe practise mostly by offshoot shia sects. and popularized by the internet. Basically by shunning tatbir, shias are becoming more orthodox muslims.. with more education, more globalization, these opinions penetrate even local cultural and religious beliefs.
You will also notice that Barelvi rituals are dying off with globalisation and internet. Visiting dargahs, doing dhamal, celebrating urs and venerating saints etc are all becoming less and less common. They are being replaced with more orthodox interpretations.. Deobandism is eating Barelvism from inside in both India and Pakistan.
This also reminds me: Americans have amazing kites. People fly kites just 10 feets off the ground with no effort on California beaches. They also have better charkhis. Will have to try it out someday.
I think when India becomes richer these innovations will be adopted. Flying Indian style ‘fighter’ kites is much harder.
https://twitter.com/vjgtweets/status/1615022532394094593
Me: “I want to find a recipe for egg curry.”
The NYT recipe: “Under the government of Prime Minister Narendra Modi, and the surge of pro-vegetarian Hindu nationalism…”
No one on earth more banal than desi NYT writers
Russians have completely botched this invasion. Americans killed civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan but we had no intention of annexing these countries. We were always going to hand the governance to local elites and leave. Pissing of locals is tolerable when the stakes are negligible and they are located half way across the world from our borders. But presumably Russians want to annex Ukraine(parts at least) and stay there permanently. What good does it do to keep killing civilians then? Hanania puts it best. If Ukraine was a not a real country in February 2022, as Russian supporters like to claim, it sure is one now.
Suggest you diversify news sources on the war in Ukraine.
Checkout Judge Napolitano’s interviews with Douglas MacGregor and Scott Ritter on Youtube.
Checkout Alexander Mercouris on Youtube
Checkout MoonofAlabama website
Checkout Saker website- https://thesaker.is/
Checkout thebigserge on Twitter
Checkout Russianswithattitude on Twitter
You will get a completely different impression of the war in Ukraine.
Wheat flour scarcity in Pakistan is finally creating the kind of scenes that was 1980s Africa. The unofficial trade for a USD is 280 PKR. Even though the govt has “fixed” it at 228, nobody is willing to sell at that rate.
HJ
Russians have completely botched this invasion. Americans killed civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan but we had no intention of annexing these countries. We were always going to hand the governance to local elites and leave.
If you read RT etc, you will see there are quite clear about their goals. De Nazification of Ukraine , which means completely destroying their military. So what happens next if Russia succeeds in its goals, i,e, defeat of Ukraine.
The Donbas etc have been handed over to Russian speakers of that area. There has been an ongoing fight between the Kiev and Donbas and Lubsank regions, which are pro Russian if not of Russian. This would be much like, the 30 year between Colombo and the LTTE Tamil speaker. The Ukraine situ is a Hindu Tamilians wet dream, India invades and destroys southern SL and Sri Lankas Tamil Hindu Majority areas become part of India.
Anyway and interesting read below. I agree the Ukraine Russia war is an existential proxy war between US/NATO and Russia. Quite a potential to spread.
excerpts
If the Russian economy resisted the sanctions indefinitely and managed to exhaust the European economy, while it itself remained, backed by China, American monetary and financial controls of the world would collapse, and with them the possibility for United States to fund their huge trade deficit for nothing. This war has therefore become existential for the United States. No more than Russia, they cannot withdraw from the conflict, they cannot let go. This is why we are now in an endless war, in a confrontation whose outcome must be the collapse of one or the other.”
Everywhere we see the weakening of the US, but not in Europe and Japan because one of the effects of the retraction of the imperial system is that the United States strengthens its hold on its initial protectorates. As the American system shrinks, it weighs ever more heavily on the local elites of the protectorates (and I include all of Europe here).
(As I have often pointed out)
He underlines the importance of skills and education: “The US is now twice as populated as Russia (2.2 times in student age groups). But in the US only 7% are studying engineering, while in Russia it is 25%. Which means that with 2.2 times fewer people studying, Russia trains 30% more engineers. The US fills the gap with foreign students, but they’re mainly Indians and even more Chinese.
Emmanuel Todd On The Third World War
https://www.moonofalabama.org/2023/01/emmanuel-todd-on-the-third-world-war.html#more
I am not sure the number of engineers gives a complete picture. Assuming a decent fraction are really good is there an ecosystem or economy where they can solve problems and thrive economically without worrying about some oligarch stealing their IP. That is the major issue with all potential challengers to the current one. As a senior Chinese advisor said, “ the day the queue for American visas shortens is the day we know US has declined”
A fundamental problem facing revisionist powers like Russia, China, Iran and maybe even India is that their smartest tend to be more socially liberal than the government and the median citizen. So many if not most want to migrate to the West. Glory to the motherland just doesn’t motivate them.
I doubt that (at least in case of India) the smartest staying back would have benefitted their home country. At least by immigrating they sort of help the relationship b/w their home and immigrated country. US-India or UAE-India relationship.
I meet many smart pro Modi/India NRIs here in US, who i am pretty sure would have been anti Modi/India had they stayed back in India. The situation is so interesting that you find Pro Modi folks in even Tamil, Mallu and Bengali folks here in US.
i dont think that you can draw the conclusion all ppl immigrating to the US are socially liberal. I would wager that portion of socially conservative + “glory to motherland” may infact be a wee bit higher. It is just that most systems back in home country are dens of incompetence or corruption and are not deemed meritocratic. Now some ppl could argue that it is difficult to build open and meritocratic systems for revisionist powers since they could be vectors for foreign influence. you never know 🙂
The overwhelming majority of Indian immigrants to the US are upper caste Hindus, who in turn overwhelmingly (85%+) vote for the BJP.
The move to the West is purely a career and comfort thing. The BJP would comfortably win every election in Santa Clara.
Couple of things. The Indian immigration to US is indeed majorly UCs (though i doubt its as high as 80 percent), i would say that immigration to other countries has actually given rise to ‘socially conservative + “glory to motherland”; folks in diaspora , rather than the other way round. That these people had they stayed back in India, would have been socially liberal than the median.
We are also discounting the fact that majority of Indian immigration is to the Middle East where UCs form a smaller population. Plus its also from areas which are less Pro Modi/BJP states. But even there i see no dearth of “glory to motherland” type of phenomena.
HJ, you are only looking at upside risk and advantages. There is also a downside risk/probability
facing revisionist powers like Russia, China, Iran and maybe even India is that their smartest tend to be more socially liberal than the government and the median citizen. So many if not most want to migrate to the West.
I think that has changed somewhat for Russians and Chinese in US with suspicion of their motives and allegiance. They’d be willing to study (US STEM has a lot of cred) and even get residency Green Card, while still keeping homeland citizenship, Easier exit from US, because still have their homeland citizenship.
For Indians who are not allowed dual citizenship, can be a issue. If this ends up being a world war, there is always a good possibility of draft. Will risk of oneself or children being drafted into a war out out weigh employment benefits.
Remember, probabilities change overnight. eg the likelihood of both WTC being attacked was very very small, so only one was insured. That probability changed over night.
I guess we will see how this plays out within this year.
The western pmc is united with the Indian, Chinese pmc in ensuring their kids are not drafted. US would be foolish to depend their plans on drafting Indian Americans. WW3 will not start till IN jumps completely on to western bandwagon and is ready to provide cannon fodder foot soldiers.
Fair enough, yall make some good points
@Bhumiputra
Don’t know about China, but in the West and I think in India as well, there is little overlap between the fighting class(regular soldiers not officers) and the professionl managerial class, no? And increasingly the PMC don’t even have children!
But you are right about India providing the “cannon fodder”. The West would prefer India to be the Soviet Union of WW3.
[email protected]
You are right about there being no overlap between the pmc and the fighting folks in west, India and from what I learnt thru [email protected] even in China. I was responding to [email protected] about the risk of a draft.
I think the separation of soldierly and scholarly class generally leads to negative outcomes but in this case it might be stalling catastrophe since all sides are searching for canon fodder.
Print’s article on how Yeddy started giving grants to Mathas of different lingayat sub castes and now even congress cant stop it.
https://theprint.in/india/education-justice-poll-tickets-what-are-karnatakas-mutts-how-they-became-power-centres/1313148/
I have my reservations on grants to religious institutions. But in a milieu where waqf/mullas get goverment stipend in other states, better build alternative dharmic claims on public money. Only fear is entrenched interests. Hopefully the mathas can encourage students of their schools and colleges to score the top ranks in public exams.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlWT0hxguGc
“Gap with India unbridgeable, warning to Pakistan that it’s in danger of diminishing into a footnote”
Bania gloating at Pakistani misery.
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Pakistan will find a way like it always does. Like us it is a resilient country. Most Indians know it too, we just like pinching Pakistanis.
India was 1.5X Banladesh’s GDP per capita in 2013, Bangladesh matched us in 2018. India is 1.5X Pakistan’s GDP per capita now. Who knows what happens in 5 years? We were dying by the millions just a year and a half ago…
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+1.
India is few steps ahead but we are still not out of the woods with out strategic threat + regime change risks. Need atleast 10 more years of Modi + loyal opposition.
https://twitter.com/AnasMallick/status/1615198492862910465
‘Prime Minister Shehbaz Sharif once again reiterates that he’s ready to talk to India on all outstanding issues with sincerity, and that he has asked the UAE to play their role as a brother to Pak and friend to India to help broker talks between India and Pakistan – Significant’
I don’t trust the PKs. Even their self critical analysis is limited to emulating IN foreign policy ie. they somehow want to get back on western gravy train while also being on good terms with CN and maybe RUS. All this while not undertaking any painstaking reforms or change in garrison state mindset.
They will get on the western gravy train regardless of Indian opposition. Taliban is receding in public memory and Islamic terrorism is at its lowest.
The economic demands from Pakistan are mostly modest for Western countries, so that they can paper over the cracks. And the West will provide that so that it does not teeters on the edge, or goes whole hog towards China.
There is no need or want of reforms or change in Pakistan.
Anything Shehbaz Sharif says is meaningless. His days as PM are quite numbered, and his party is absolutely not winning the next elections, that are due this year.
Both IK and the new COAS are hawkish on India. IK may become dovish if Modi provides some relief on Kashmir, but don’t think that is happening so I see current status quo continuing for next 3-5 years.
Ground situation hardly changes regardless. Things will go as they otherwise would have on Indian side, no matter the Pak leadership. India has remains in full anticipation of continued export of islamist terror elements as well as local brainwashing for recruitment. All sides of Pak establishment hate India, no matter what is said otherwise. As economy worsens, terrorism concerns will also worsen.
The concession will be restoration of Kashmir statehood and elections.
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Imran will clean sweep a fair election.
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IMO Modi should maintain course. I like the way things are right now. 2-3 more years of this is good. I hope he remembers Vajpayee’s fate.
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Visiting prophet Isa janmabhoomi later this month, so learning a bit more about Israel/ Palestine conflict.
Establishment of Israel in 1948 has interesting early parallels to India /Pakistan partition in 1947.
Muhammad Ali Jinnah is similar to Ben Gurrion, secular men attempting to create a religious state.
Upper class Muslims from Delhi-Lucknow area being similar to zionists.
The British are still the British.
Imposition of Hebrew in Israel as national language in Jews similar to imposition of Urdu. (Albeit Hebrew more impressive since it was a dead language aside from religious usage, similar to Sanskrit)
The one key difference that lead to different trajectories is the day after Israel declared independence, a bunch of Arab countries attacked Israel from all sides.
In the Indian context Gandhi served as peacemaker and was murdered by Hindu Nationalists (Arab Nationalists / Islamists in Palestine context), and Kashmir dispute.
But there was nothing even close to an all out war by one state solution supporters (Indians / Arabs) on 2 state solution supporters (Pakistanis /Israelis).
Anyways somehow the Arabs managed to loose that war and other subsequent wars. Then the Palestinians tried to take over Jordan, so the other Arabs left the Palestinians hanging.
Israel being victor captured a bunch of land, but doesn’t want too many Arab citizens do a lot of its human rights violations (and there are many) stem from that.
Any reason you are travelling to Israel? Not a common destination for non-Christian Indians, no?
Lots of history aside from religious significance. I also wanted to get a better feel for the palestine israel conflict, and take a dip in the dead sea before it disappears.
So far it is proving to be pretty amazing, not necessarily in a fun way, but in a mind expanding sobering way.
Some quick thoughts:
– Jerusalem and Israel in general is very developed compared to what I expected. Felt a bit strange seeing so many kids around and people in religious garb. (Only rich country with an above replacement TFR).
– Tel Aviv is more expensive than NYC not even joking. I spent $75 on Halva.
– Customer service is ‘rude’ but also ‘hospitable’ not sure how to make sense of it. Lots of bs and haggling both in Israel and Palestine, similar to India. But the people are less deferential and more proud. On Palestine side I was a bit more generous.
– Went to Palestine controlled area (Bethlehem) today and was at the Banksy hotel and getting a tour of the wall / palestinian refugee camps.
News came in that several people were killed in a Jenin gunfight between IDF and palestinian group. Mood turned somber, Palestinians burning tires to protest, Israel shooting tear gas as retaliation, was really intense (might post a video later). Mosque called for a total ‘bandh’. One falafel place near jesus janmabhumi stayed open, and while I eating there about 30 youths in black masks and batons came by and asked him to shutdown.
– Yesterday I visited the Holocaust museum and couldn’t help but see some parallels between Jewish Ghettos in Europe and the Palestinian situation in West Bank.
Palestinian ghettos are still quite nice compared to slums in India. Heck I think better than slum rehab buildings. Which I think is a bit shameful for India.
– Banksy’s walled off hotel / art is nice, but feels really out of place culturally to have that hipster hotel in Palestine. met some welsh guy who has been to palestine 10 times, and just buys banks souvenirs and flips them on ebay.
– Religious architecture (like church of nativity, western wall, al aqsa mosque) is mid imo. The golden dome of rock, and old city as a whole is quite impressive.
– Israel is much more ethnically diverse than I thought, even the jews are all racially diverse.
– I have a worse impression of all Abrahamic faiths than I used to. Islam and Judaism are about as different as two different sects of Vaishanvism (not even Hinduism as a whole) and still become vectors for violence and domination rather than coexisting.
– Hummus and falafel are better and cheaper in Palestine controlled areas. From my exp.
– Tel Aviv has the most vegans per capital in the world, and some innovative good vegan food.
is your work remote, so you can travel? India’s wealthy and middle are a different story. But India’s poor are at the level of subsaharan africa’s lower classes on many different types of indices. So the Palestine comparison point is not surprising at all.
noticed that Partition tends to be more important and significant and talked about in the Pakistan/India aspect than involving us. This too is connected to genotype/phenotype.
Pakistan with the exception of some tribal Pashtun areas and Balochistan that is to say Punjabi Sindhi etc are genetically and linguistically and phenotypically the same as Indians. They have similar genetic makeups of the Zagrosian, AASI, Steppe makeups and looks pretty much the same. They can look across the border to Rajasthan or Gujarat or Punjab or Uttar Pradesh Bihar etc and see people who look the same as them. blah blah Steppe and shit but their overall amounts and makeups are quite similar, BMAC is still just a different source of Zagrosian+some minor Anatolian.
contd.
Hence why Kumail Nanjiani, a native Sindhi ethnic guy gets mistaken as Gujarati and South Indian and literally any brown actor lol
Now contrast that with people from Rajasthan or North India from Uttar Pradesh Bihar Gujarat etc
Guy is Rajasthani yet looks indistinguishable from any Pak. He can look at any Paki and vice versa and they’ll recognize they look similar which is why Partition is more significant on that aside, there’s simply more of a genetic and phenotype connection.
You can also model Bengalis as Telugu_GBR+15% Asian or Bihar/Gangetic/North+15% Asian, or Patel+15% Asian on Vahaduo but the East Eurasian is the significant aspect that marks the differences in bone/facial structure, face shapes and features.
Light or dark, the Asian element is the distuingisher because they tend to be Steppe+Zagros+AASI while us and the Assamese are those 3 plus an additional 13% (Bengali) to 20%(Assamese) Asiatic.
I mean Razib has seen my data file, I was the Rangpur_Bangladesh guy that was modelled and even though I’m a bit more West Eurasian than the other Bengali samples(still cluster with them tho) due to some exotic ancestry way back, phenotypically I look nothing but Bengali or at most Assamese. This is the same for other Bengalis btw (not types like Son Goku that think they’re “Pashtun looking” kek) Fun fact: on HarappaWorld because of this, I can be modelled as 80% Rajasthani+20% Garo. Despite this, I don’t look like em and I as well as others BDs stand out amongst other browns light or dark because of this added admixture. We can be modelled with them North/South/whatever groups but we have a comp which they lack completely. It’s known, maybe more suble than this heavyhanded comment by me but its known
There’s also the linguistic angle, Hindustani languages are mutually intelligible and the cultural practices are the same on both sides with caste based genetic structure which is non existent in BD.
So you are basically saying whatever slight shift Pakistanis have from North+Central India doesn’t have a major effect because the components of that ‘shift’ are the same. Well by that logic even Pashtuns & Tajik are not that different, but taking magnitude of the difference into account your point stands.
You model as “Rajasthani” + Asian? What Rajasthani? There is huge variance in Rajasthan and you cant possibly model as a Rajasthani Jatt or Brahmin + Asian. The reference is probably Rajasthani Dalit, and most Bangladeshis can’t be modelled as Rajasthani Dalit + Asian either. But your sample may be super-shifted.
blah,
Pashtuns are a West Eurasian population. The periphery groups in the tribal Pashtun areas will probably be similar to them. Basic punjabis sindhis no not really. The Eurasian Plate is also important here as a factor which you glossed over. Also, Pashtuns have very significant levels of Anatolian Neolithic Farmer. 15% seems to be the average and significantly higher Caucasus Hunter-Gatherer.
Afghans will be confused for Iranians, for Levantines etc not Indian. Pakistanis like Sindhi ethnic actor like Kumail Nanjiani along with the rest of the Punjabis Sindhis will be seen as other Indian actors which Kumail has even pointed out btw so it’s not just my opinion, he literally gets confused for South Indian looking Kunal Nayyar from the Big Bang theory and Gujarati Teli Kal Penn (aka Kalpen Modi, a generic oil presser last name) that scores 20% or more AASI than Sindhis.
Tajiks? lol. They score barely any amounts of AASI to begin with. They’re a completely different population to begin with. Are you going to count Iranians in this too because they score some amounts of AASI?
On the Rajasthani thing….
I dunno probably a Rajasthani Meena group based on HarappaWorld scores. HarappaWorld is bad with me anyways. Another suggested oracle was Tamil Brahmin+20% Asian which is nonsense. It’s because the Bengali samples on the HarappaWorld average 12 years ago did not have good range. I never said most Bengalis could btw be modelled like this but that we could be modelled as Telugu average or whatever with 15% Asian which is true with Telugu_GBR on G25 and that despite this the difference is huge in phenos because of the East Eurasian which is practically nonexistent.
And yes, that’s what I said. Many Paki groups will score more Zagrosian Farmer than others numerically speaking on an objective basis but it’s not really that big when many Telugus, Tamils, Brahmins etc score 37%-39% Zagrosian compared to their 45% Zagrosian scores. This is why Kumail Nanjiani a Sindhi will look no different from a Gujarati like Kal Penn (Kalpen Modi) even though Kal Penn prolly has nearly double Kumails AASI score.
On a general level, Telugus and other Indos/Paks can be modelled just fine with Zagrosian, AASI and Steppe. Maybe some individuals will have some admix from other groups but we’re talking generally this is just how it is. However for me and other Bangladeshis, it’s just not possible to model us without the Asian which is scored at a significant level at around 12% (I need 17 or more and Razib needs 15% at least).
I’ll say tho that some “Indian Bengalis” look generic Indian. I’m sure you can piece together as to why that is 🙂
https://www.opindia.com/2023/01/australia-historic-shri-shiva-vishnu-temple-attacked-khalistani-supporters/
it’s heating up down under.
REVEALED: At least THIRTEEN Virginia high schools delayed merit awards until after college admissions as state AG says they are specifically targeting Asian American students
Virginia AG Jason Miyares says at least 13 high schools failed to let students know they won merit awards, causing them to miss out on scholarships
The AG has opened an investigation into the issue following allegations that Asian American students were targeted to ensure ‘equal outcomes’
So far, three school districts have been caught in the allegations, including Fairfax, Loudon, and Prince William County Public Schools
In Fairfax, which houses one of the best-scoring high schools in the nation, officials hired an equity consultant at $450,000
Miyares said the goal of the consultant was to ensure ‘equal outcomes no matter what,’ which adversely affected high-achieving Asian American students
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11644847/At-THIRTEEN-Virginia-high-schools-delayed-merit-awards-targeting-Asian-American-students.html
Support the left all the time for status reasons but whenever you are personally harmed(crime and education), come crying to the right. Such is the tale of us, middle class and above Asian Americans.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/17/us/hamline-lawsuit-prophet-muhammad-religion.html
“Islamophobia” no longer seems to have the same salience among liberals as it used to. Even Muslim groups are divided. The Muslim Students Association was the reason that the professor’s contract was not renewed. But the Council of American-Islamic Relations(CAIR), white liberals go-to organization for all Muslim topics went from condemning the professor to now supporting her rights.
During Trump years, I don’t think a good liberal professor would have even dared to show a picture of Muhammad and if someone did all Muslim and liberal groups would have been united in their condemnation. But even the university administration now admits it made a mistake. I think if a professor in another university shows Muhammad’s image, they won’t be blindly thrown under the bus like this one was.
Also, don’t think Western liberals will keep sucking up to Muslims. White liberals love “victims”, i.e people who are doing worse than them. This is why they love blacks and Hispanics. But Muslims in America are doing very well, better than white liberals. And their brethren across the world are not being bombed anymore by the West. This is also the reason why no one other than “Democrats are the real racists” conservatives, care about colleges discriminating Asians.
Another factor in liberal liking of cultures is “does that culture encourage/enable women having multiple partners, either serially or preferably concurrently ?” Aka sexual freedom
The radical Islamic sympathizing and leftist alliance showed cracks in Deerborne Michigan. It will keep happening. Culture is also homegenzing. This is despite globalization having push back. The allure of Western hedonism is tremendous, as is social pressure to conform to certain opinions.
But I think intersectionality will help. Many Muslims are Black and that population is growing. Because of the nature of oppressor-oppresee paradigm race politics and given that Islam has big popularity and a growing population in subsaharan Africa, Western leftists will have a soft spot for it. Again, the issue isn’t Islam. If practiced in a reformed and moderate manner, things are fine. The issue is that the leftist favoritism leads to radical Islam apologetics and sometimes downright tacit support (eg. Ilhan Omar). There is nothing wrong with loving all people (white, black, etc). The issue again is leftist favoritism based on their myopic view of history. This plays out in the current racist affirmative action system in America.
Additionally, in places like the UK, populations like Pakistani Muslims are sufficiently quite socioeconomically backward. The hatred off Christianity as a dominant force will continue by leftists, as issues like abortion still cause sparks with the committed pro-life minority, a group whose birth rate is higher than that of others.
The end result is a likely continuation of the unholy alliance, albeit with breakdown among the most extreme wings, something that escaped the lens of scrutiny because of of more radical “intersectionality.” The aforementioned remains an issue in hypocritical Indian “secular” circles. It is ironic that the supposedly “fascist” Hindu Nats are most pro uniform civil code.
This is stupid, what aint broken will not be reformed, there can be no “moderate islam” without it first being broken intellectually. If there aint no market for it, it wont emerge, only by criticising islam will there be a demand for “moderate islam”. Left in west does the bs game because they have no skin in the game wrt islam in america. Left in India are colonized missionary kids who have only learnt hinduism is evil, they have not yet graduated to criticize religion as universally bad yet. All wokery etc works only for a while until its ur neck on the line and everything changes. Left in China is in absolute power, it therefore sees the world more clearly. It sees that different religions pose different kinds of problems and goes after them unapologetically. Left in west, India is not in power, it needs to make alliances with other ideologies for sake of power.
More often than not, what you speak has to do with what your demography is, and whether you are in power on your own or not. For example, Left govt in kerala is supporting adani port along with rss against church backed protests of local fisherman. U cant explain such alliances , only by the idea of “convergence of interests” can you explain such things.
Stupid people value theory over practicals, legalist bullshit over action. When west(usa) faces real trouble with islam/jihadis/sharia, it will not hesitate to massacre them all if that is what it takes. They see no need for such drastic actions now.West believes in making ideas/rules of the game, expects others to follow them like parrots.
India is about to replace China as the most populous country.
This will inevitably lead to some people saying India needs population control etc.
This is a great opportunity, as you can write-off those people as dumb and stop listening to them.
Indian needed population control back in the 50’s and 60’s. Now its kinda useless, too late anyway.
I don’t really see many Bangladeshis like this much however….
Some random guy at a factory
https://i.vgy.me/NDzc9D.jpg
This is a common type on the other hand lol
https://i.vgy.me/4b6RVS.jpg
One can see the difference between islamists, communists and Indians/Hindus.
2 out of 3 had own laws, did not obey western ideas, one preserved demography, other gained technology parity and big economy.
India/Hindus by following all the western laws and norms, have been losing out on demography and also did not develop quickly. And get criticized the most for it unlike either of them. With an internalized colonized idiots. with interference in local politics.This after centuries of colonial conquest that gave advantage to church. While govt pretty much controlled and did not allow Hindu institutions to grow. rss/bjp took advantage of vacuum to grow.
who sets the rules decides who benefit the most. Most of India’s problems could have been solved by having own pro Hindu rules as well.
saw omarali arguing with dhume, my views
” morality is not same as liberalism. one can be moral and conservative.”
1.) There is no evidence liberalism is self sustaining, it might very well be a gateway ideology, in the west, from physics to biology, liberalism allowed left to take over.
2.) In case of India, one has to talk of liberalism vs gdp per capita. .Also Do they expect India to be liberal as the most developed countries?.should one compare India to west as it was 100 yrs ago, or right now?.With west having its own unique history and no evidence that it is replicable
3.) Liberalism has not proven itself to work with islam, Indian history/ demography is different and in India’s case, it has failed. Congress did not fail liberalism in India, liberalism failed congress, because it could not get muslims to introspect due to votebank policies , democracy itself is at loggerheads with liberalism , be it minority or majority.
In India’s case, people gave congress /left long time and saw it failed and replaced it.
4.) All ideas/ideologies should demonstrate their success, in case of liberalism , it must strictly be popperian in nature, that is, intolerant should not be cuddled with and say that is liberalism. Inability to call out islamic fundamentalism is demonstration that liberalism itself is a failure when confronted with it.Liberalism must demonstrate its capacity to win for others to put their trust in it in the first place or you are asking them to risk their security. congress failed non muslim minorities big time in 1947 by outrightly abandoning them.
5.) morality is not same as liberalism. one can be moral and conservative.
6.) western experiments on liberalism comes with the demographic and cultural continuity of christian evangelism refilling the demographic stock and thereby western culture.
And India is not the same, hinduism is not evangelical, it believes in model of reciprocity. which is different liberalism, precisely because it is not evangelical in nature and hence cannot satisfy the demographic anxiety unlike evangelical christianity and the west.
7.) evidence based, empirical evidence based results is the way forward with demonstration along the way.
8. No reason for society has to try to emulate the west , with different history, different religious demographic base. Western liberalism has already been rejected by china, muslim world, why should India and hindus stick to it and not have its own model?.
9.) And also, why the hurry? West itself got to this point, after many twists and turns, and no evidence it is the final state either. And west got here after colonial conquest, violence, massacre on enormous scale. The historical evidence of what it took to get here is not a convincing of others having to emulate any of that at all.
10.) Perhaps, he should consider that the anxiety liberalism causes is what leads for people to seek identitarianism in a big way, left or right and hence leads to many cycles of violence.
11.) There is no evidence of successful non western liberal state with sizeable population anywhere in the world. And even if such a thing were to happen, why the hurry?.
12.) If liberalism is the ultimate ism, they should have no problem to wait for another hundred yrs or more, should they not be more interested in getting there in a safer way as opposed to getting there quickly.
13. Western liberalism came after a period of violence and homogenisation of culture and society and that was not painless.
14. He assumes that somehow there is a way to get to liberalism that is painless and there is no evidence for that.
15. The only nominal non christian population in west were jews and they ended up having their own state.
16. Should people like dhume say upfront, that they intend to risk the lives/security/majority demography of hindus for their liberalism and say it outloud to hindus that, “we have a great moral ideology and we will risk the lives of hindus to achieve it.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiKuxfcSrEU
“some of you may die but it is a sacrifice I am willing to make.”
And yes, the politician who said this was mohandas gandhi.
“Hindus should not harbour anger in their hearts against muslims even if the latter wanted to destroy them, even if the muslims want to kill us all, we should face death bravely. If they established their rule after killing all hindus , we would be ushering in a new world by sacrificing our lives, we shall be ushering in a new era of India”.
17) And no, it is not whataboutry to question, the moral consequences of liberalism. That liberalism failed vs islam is now clear for all to see. That left/liberals turn cowardly and cower is for all to see . So, they have no moral credibility.
18) They should first demonstrate their success first in the 52 islamicate states.Even in the west, christian nationalism has risen as well, with trump.
19) liberalism is the arrogance that the final stage of history has reached.
20.) People to value self preservation is not the same as whataboutry. so, first its followers must first give to hindus their own institutions without govt intererence and allow means for their own self preservation before asking them to risk further when their previous bets of risking their lives has been devastating.
21)To risk others lives and have them massacred and to still ask the same people to risk own lives and liberty is not credible.
22) Tell them to first demonstrate their ability to be honest, first on issue of history. Tell dhume in particular to demonstrate his own honesty by calling out specific historians as frauds and liars first. If he can.
23) IQ and liberality might very well be correlated, it might just be the case that human societies cannot be both stable and liberal until humans become considerably more smarter. In which case, why not just wait for next 200 yrs, without taking risks of major violence?
India’s preference for keeping lines of communications open to Russia despite immense pressure from the West since the 2022 invasion has paid dividends.
Ukraine has burned through all of its own Soviet legacy armaments and additional Soviet legacy matériel shipped from various allies. Now it needs NATO stuff like the Leopards and Germany is rightly circumspect. It will take many years to rebuild NATO tank reserves once lost on the battlefield. And it doesn’t seem like it would even make much of a difference except buying Ukraine a few extra months of time at best. Donbass is the most urbanised, industrialised and fortified region of Ukraine. Once it falls, it’s mostly wide and open fields until you get to larger urban agglomerations.
Meanwhile India has not only managed to get itself cheap oil, I suspect it could also begin to get discounts on arms shipments from Russia in the coming years as sanctions will bite and the Russians need income streams.
One thing this war has shown is that a decent air defence is incredibly effective at shutting down the sky for enemy aircraft. Russia has better air defence capabilities than the West. The hypersonic Kinzhal missile cannot be defended against at all, and I suspect that it will show up in India under the name Brahmos-2. The West doesn’t even have any hypersonic missiles of its own.
If India continues to play its cards this well, then I may have to seriously upgrade my projections for when India will start to become a serious global power.
The Wall Street lobby is still pushing for a us-china rapprochement.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Gokul_Sahni/status/1616869421045403653
Lot of rich folks want to go back to world created in 1979 ie. US china rapprochement.
If India continues to play its cards this well, then I may have to seriously upgrade my projections for when India will start to become a serious global power.
Also seriously upgrade projections of European economy, specially that of Germany.
Germany is being set up to be the fall guy when Ukraine fails. The US and others will point fingers and claim the cause was lost because Germany did not provide Leopard Tanks.
Even SG is now admitting that uri and balakot have changed the dynamic for PK.
https://theprint.in/national-interest/shehbaz-sharif-is-talking-peace-india-must-keep-mum-leave-pak-to-pak/1326389/
“The Uri cross-border strike and then the Balakot bombing changed the rules. Once India demonstrated that it would retaliate and not bother about the fear of escalation, nuclear or not, that bluff was called. For Pakistan, this completed its irrelevance. ”
I would disagree a bit. Neither Uri or Balakot change much on the ground. This options were provided to the previous govts and they didn’t take it (for obvious reasons). One could argue that India was even far stronger footing (2006-2012 or so) and Pakistan was on weaker one. India knew that there was a point below which wars wouldn’t trigger. Something Pakistan tried to do with Gibraltar and Kargil.
Also Pakistan irrelevance or relevance has never been due to India. Its external factors (and internal Imran Khan factors) which has somewhat driven Pakistan economy to the mud, which can and may change as swiftly as they come.
So its better for India to not wade into stuff which it cannot really control.
The reduced frequency of attacks would indicate that retaliation has worked to some extent. IMHO This change is entirely due to modi.
“So it’s better for India to not wade into stuff which it cannot really control.”
I agree we should leave PK to its own devices. Not sure if you are also saying we should not retaliate for any attacks.
Modi has tried to reach out to PK – twice! – and got burned both times. I don’t think he will take the bait a third time.
Moreover, Pakistan’s current govt is weak and lacks popular legitimacy. So it makes no sense to engage now.
The sudden olive branch should be seen in the context of them being on the brink of default. To calm the LoC would be in their narrow self-interest, as it would ease pressure on military expenditures. It would also be a way for the civilian govt to regain a better footing vis-a-vis the army, which uses the conflict with India as a tool to get more funds.
It makes more sense for India to instead force Pakistan into higher spending, like the US did during the 1980s against the former Soviet Union.
India has no money to increase spending. Increase budget by even 10 billion and it is guaranteed it will all be spent in pensions, salaries, more soldiers …
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Indian procurement is peak babu-dom. Latest example is the self propelled howitzers. After decades long process Israel’s ATHOS won with a absurdly low price offer which IMO should have been accepted. Some nautanki, buy indigenous, … contract cancelled. Folks said buy modernized Bofors variant Dhanush, DRDO+Tata+Kalyani’s big ATAGS howitzer…
Wasted many years, OFB can’t produce anything, ATAGS in perpetual trials phase…
Now Army issues new requirements to select ATHOS. New controversy… cycle continues, decades get wasted like this.
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IMO India should exercise clause for additional rafales ASAP. Big aircraft deal won’t happen, India has no money. But we will kill time…
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One thing I love about working in America is decisiveness. Right or wrong people decide things and move on… Indian defense bureaucracy is always trishanku…
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Peace between India and Pakistan means India will make a lot of money from Pakistan like it does from Bangladesh. It is a prospect Pakistanis don’t like.
India will never offer any real concessions on Kashmir. Pakistan will not hand over POK in talks. The soft people in both countries do endless empty talk in the hope that ‘mutually beneficial’ trade happens.
People to people connection is BS too. Indians don’t like Pakistan, Pakistanis don’t like India… it is no Nepal, this P2P nice-ness is superficial.
Tourism potential beyond eating food in Lahore is over-rated. There is nothing in Pakistan the likes of which Indians can’t find in India itself. India does have Kerala, Manipur, Lakshdeep, Andaman, Hampi, Banaras, Agra-Sikri, Orccha, Jaipur, …
One reason India had historically feted Pakistan is because it fears US, UK, and China gaining a foothold. Indians see themselves as a China-US tier power in the future.
Bangladesh plays this game well. Sri Lanka had over reached.
Old school Indian politicians like Vajpayee’s speeches on ‘samrajyavaad ka virodh’, trying to make SAARC work etc were them trying to avoid Indian subcontinent from being colonized by China and the US. All this Pakistani ‘geostrategic’ over-smartness from Kargil to militancy to Si-paiik to American coalition support fund has made India completely heartless and realistic.
Pakistan will buttfuck India at first opportunity, India will do the same but when results are more predictable. Bangladesh (for now) is the neighbor we wanted in Pakistan.
As per Konstantin, Apparently ~400 ppl were arrested for posting offensive things online in RUS in 2018. The corresponding figure in UK was ~3300.
https://mobile.twitter.com/cybersygh/status/1616568318793744387
And these folks lecture the world about FoS with their democracy indices .
Most indexes published by “think” tanks are fake but the democracy one takes the cake. Midwits worlwide fall for it. Foreign libs fall for it because “it can’t be propaganda, look the US is also ranked low”. And the American libs receive the perfect ammunition against their political enemies(“we need to save our democracy”). Western libs get to kill two birds with one stone.
make own rankings
24) The final one on liberalism, in over 70 yrs, India does not even have common law. This is not a failure of congress, it is evidence of how islamism defeated liberalism through subversion of democracy. That it is not possible to get muslim vote while at same time supporting reform and liberalism with respect to their faith.
I remember telling gaurav, that liberalism is about normalizing deviancy. I want an acknowledgement, better cash in all the checks, who knows about tomorrow.
Indians do not have the same history as the British. How realistic is it to expect India to have evolved a common law when India has not had a strong state as long as Britain? Has not India evolved a common law because of Islamism or because of caste? Hindu nationalists claim to be fighting the consequences of the slavery of colonialism but they use Western values and standards to judge India.
west was influenced by china as well. Idiots think of values/ etc, reality is guns and money. Rise of nation states was certain, castes cannot rise to that level because it is diffused across the country, its very local. Because it cannot scale . India has historically had value for diversity of ideas, buddhism,jainism,chavarka and many sects within hinduism as well. There was always value for diversity of ideas. Infact in south, many sudra castes like reddy were declared sat shudras, sudras with kshatriya quality. Same was case with shivaji. There was atleast one book or attempt declaring that there were only 2 castes in kalyug, brahmins and sudras, others were eliminated or corrupted beyond measure. Industrialisation would have destroyed a lot of these things but under british that did not happen. Infact parliamentary system along with poor economy gave a greater fillip to caste. In presidential system, the requirement of making sure every vote counts would have consolidated things even better. west and colonized morons think others are incapable of learning. The requirements of strength and commerce would have forced these things by itself. When one reads works of dharmapal, you realize that education for sudras in all secular subjects were already being taught. Different states would have developed at different pace , some states in south were developing faster as well. West should decide on this thing, either admit there is no such thing as reasoning in social domain and its all theology or admit that others are capable of reasoning and learning. Racism really is the belief that others cannot reason and learn and only one can learn. The problem was not of that, the problem was the pace of learning, considering islamic bullshit system systematically destroyed learning systems in India while europe was safe from cavalry raiding armies. And christianity got its ass kicked every where else, and got wiped out from middleeast and got byzantine civilization destroyed. Infact, even nato lost to islamists in 21st century with all the advanced weapons. Given this, Its clear that we endured a much harder challenge and still managed to defeat mughals, pakistan/ saudi arabia, islamists in modern world is entirely creation of british bastards.
Japan is a good example of how quickly they adapted, ottoman empire as well, same with thailand.China too adapted , I debated that british stooge historian parsi bootlicker and got him to admit defeat that indeed different parts of India would indeed have industrialized and developed differently thereby defeating him.
The exception to all this so far is islam and that is due to sharia. India post industrialization would have given enormous power to sudra castes in a big way because they are the majority. Guns and numbers makes all the difference in the world. If anything, having british most probably saved brahmins from a french style revolution. There was no way to save caste hierarchy once guns and industrialisation enters the picture.competition, guns and industrialization is a forcing function on all “values” that was going to emerge.
Please give an example of an OBC revolt in India before the arrival of the British? In Japan and China the educated class embraced change and adopted Western ways. In India, with a few exceptions, Brahmins and the educated class have tried to monopolize the benefits of modernization for themselves. The money spent on primary education, the opposition to teaching the English language in government schools etc shows the difference between Japan/China and India.
The british helped brahmins the most, created brahmin dominated polity through congress and with greater value for education over industry and commerce. The obc revolution in India started only more recently from 1991, much earlier in tamil nadu, in Andhra pradesh, reddys are a powerful community, India right now is infact in a obc revolution, modi himself is an obc.delay in industrialization due to british hurt them more.
Many successful business groups in India now are not brahmins, many come from trader castes. Delayed industrialization , exploitation by british cut down the power of obc/sc/st relatively even more and they accentuated the power of brahmins through education , bookish learning more suited to them than that of industry and commerce. Brahmins were by far THE biggest beneficiaries of british.By comparison , an increasingly Industrializing India would have cut their power and prestige to size . The biggest change of Industrialization is that the commercial/trading communities and manufacturing and product creating communities gained greater power over the martial and priestly communities. Even under british, the zoroastrian community which was preferred by british gained the most through industry, they have never had such distinction or prominence in India’s history.
In a way, the delay in opening up of India to market economy reforms was obstructed by the brahmin dominated congress and marxists the most under guise of exploitation but perhaps more clearly it would have meant their own relative decline in polity in their own respective parties.
Davos CEOs and china back to schmoozing.
https://mobile.twitter.com/SariArhoHavren/status/1617072650815426566
Looks like the big guns of the Capitalist establishment WSJ (Wall Street Journal) have decided to throw Big Pharma under the bus. (Is Biden and Ukraine next ?).
Fake news and conspiracy theories getting validated.
As I keep saying it really does not matter, the Big Pharma go a “Hail Mary, Get out of Jail Free pass”. That in itself should have been a huge red flag. Anyway Big Pharma is not liable for scam, negligence or whatever.
In my opinion, fear and the wish to believe prevented healthy skepticism and caution among the experts. They signed on carte blanche the whole untested mRNA vaccines without FACT CHECKING or questioning the data or manufacturer reports
In retrospect, the issue was staring in our (at least mine) faces. Much like the flu, there can be no one single bullet, or vaccine. The virus mutates and has variants faster than vaccines can be produce. Compounding the problem is the issue of long term side of effects untested mRNA vaccine.
——–
Wall Street Journal editorial board member Allysia Finley has taken a flamethrower to vaccine makers over their “deceptive” campaign for bivalent Covid boosters, and slams several federal agencies for taking “the unprecedented step of ordering vaccine makers to produce them and recommending them without data supporting their safety or efficacy.”
WSJ Shreds Vaccine Makers, Biden Admin Over “Deceptive” Booster Campaign
https://www.zerohedge.com/political/wsj-shreds-vaccine-makers-biden-admin-over-deceptive-booster-campaign
Addendum
I realized that the big Honchos dont mind the big companies making money off the little people. e.g. MIC from tax payer funded wars in other countries, Opioid sales to druggies by the Sacklers/Purdue Pharma (a minor slap on the wrist). However, they do take issue when they too get taken for a ride, loose money or lives of they and theirs. eg Enron and Madoff for example.
So there is still hope, Pfizer and some in the CDC (eg Fauci will be made to walk the plank regardless of the “Get out of Jail card”
@Bhimrao
Answer to What is it like being an Indian in Silicon Valley? by Anonymous https://www.quora.com/What-is-it-like-being-an-Indian-in-Silicon-Valley/answers/22881240?ch=15&oid=22881240&share=8e88d005&target_type=answer
Likely fiction. But I found the writing style enjoyable
Company catered lunches, stocked fridges, … situation is very good.
‘You compensate by calling him behenchod … a racist joke and you stop talking.’
This does happen to some, I am from UP, I can never give up Hindi expletives. I like all NIs have pretty racist jokes in private.
Indians hike a lot. Bay Area and Seattle have insanely beautiful hikes. Presidio, Lands End, Diablo, Muirwood, Caramel, S Cruz,…
I only get recruitment emails from ‘consultancy’ companies, some random Indian-Pakistani recruiters. Never been contacted by a big shot.
‘The CEO mentions cost-cutting at the All Hands but assures that all the numbers are up and to the right.’
This is now everywhere except civil engineering. The worst is automobile industry. So many Indian mechanical engineering guys working like as contractual slaves in Midwest for Ford, GM, and their OEMs…, fuck car companies.
‘He tells you he’s quitting to do his own startup in India.’
Everyone talks, no one leaves.
What’s the Hindu version of Love Jihad?
https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/bangalore/pakistani-girl-held-for-entering-india-illegally-to-marry-up-man-she-met-online-8398999/lite/
Apparently, the man is a Yadav. It’s funny, they met on some online game called LUDO.
More seriously, given how far down the drain Pakistan is going, I wouldn’t be surprised to see more of these stories popping up. Women will often use transnational marriage as a pathway to socio-economic emigration (“import brides”), which is obviously much harder for men.
If India legalizes gay marriage, this won’t be a problem!
https://www.news18.com/news/opinion/opinion-britains-mysterious-silence-on-growing-islamist-terror-and-violence-6884479.html
All for “political correctness.” Radical left leaves radical Islam unabated.
# qurashi,
pl. give us your take on the exact situation in pak. i cannot believe our channels.
Game of thrones going on between the political and military elite, while the economy is reeling due to uncertainty and instability. PTI is polling at around 50% nationwide, which is 2/3rds majority territory. PMLN basically knows at this point that they are getting wiped out in any election so they are stubbornly holding onto power with the help of the generals. Their incompetence and nepotism is destroying the economy, but they continue to hang on with the help of GHQ.
Generals don’t want an election either because they fear IK back as PM will wreak vengeance against them and pull them down a notch below.
This is election year, but good chance we don’t see elections happening, since the political and military elite is trying everything it can to hold onto power.. but its slipping away every passing day. They might try to heavily rig elections, but not that easy to do this in Punjab now tbh.
The economic trajectory can be reversed by a strong government and turnaround can happen within a year (barring any global recession). But political stability is not on the cards.
I don’t know what Indian channels are reporting, but its probably even more doom/gloom scenario.
I think you underestimate the army power to rig elections.
If they can make 30 seat PTI turn into 140 odd party, surely they can ‘help’ PMLN into around about 100 party. And once that’s done, it will depend upon Sindh and Independents.
Direct rigging is still relatively rare in general elections under civilian setup. Army did not rig 2018, they only rolled out the red carpet for PTI after disqualifying Nawaz and filling PTI with electable politicians, directing media and business interests to support PTI.
The 2018 results were no surprise though, PMLN’s performance was abysmal from 2013-2018, and PTI was polling higher before the elections. It’s just a myth by Pak libbus and Sharif apologists that PTI had no mandate in 2018 – they had the biggest mandate.
However this time, none of those shenanigans will work.. people associate the economic problems and inflation directly with the army’s meddling, and PML is seen as the establishment’s party in any future election. And this is why they don’t want an election, they know they cannot easily rig it and they know they cannot politick their way out of this mess. Higher turnouts negate any chance of rigging. If rigging happens against PTI, it will be due to PTI’s own incompetence and in organization for failing to bring their voters out enmasse.
Not sure i agree with 2018 elections analysis. Though i agree that saying PTI had no mandate in 2018 is wrong. I don’t think Govt performance and all matter as much as folks make it out to be, whether its India or Pakistan.
PMLN had a disqualified Shariff, but in a normal elections (without army prodding the electable to jump ship) , i would say that PTI and PMLN would have had a similar seat tally. Something which happened in Punjab local elections, held the same time.
This time around PTI is the front runner, army might help PMLN bring them down a notch, and once that happens ultimately that would benefit the army, who can then push the electable/independents to whoever they think is amiable.
It’s first past the post system, so winner takes all. In 2013, PMLN in Punjab got 40% of the votes, but 90% of the seats. So election results are based on weakness of opposition just as it does on a party’s own strength. in 2013, opposition in Punjab was divided between PPP and PTI allowing PML to sweep. In 2018, PPP was wiped out of Punjab and PTI ate their cake.
PMLN has no votebank outside Punjab. They are non existent in Sindh, KP, Baluchistan. Their only route to a federal government is through winning massively in Punjab and then allying with some small regional parties. Punjab has turned against them, and they are not coming back in government. There is lot of dissent in the party itself now as they see writing on the wall.
5 million voters turn 18 every year in Pakistan, and since 2018, that’s 25 million. Almost all of them support PTI, and even if 20% of them turnout to vote PTI, that’s 5 million free votes for IK over 2018.
Either ways, I don’t think much would change. It boils down to this: Habibs will not let automobile sector open up, Riyaz got Miftah removed for real estate taxation, electricity will always cost more money than Ind/Ban, Pakistani real estate is overpriced, talented Pakistanis will go abroad, Pakistani startups have only ever sunk VC money… none of this will change short term.
I don’t think Pakistan is sinking. They will do just fine. They just like hogging international attention by humiliating their own country for petty gains.
I don’t get why Pak ‘libs’ hate IK so much? He did no one any harm. He is a better man than the feudal of Sindh who own 10s of thousands of acres, or ‘chor’ industrialists of Punjab who rose with corruption, sugar subsidies, or scrap steel mafia. Sharad Pawar is 10x more honest than Sharifs, Jyotiraditya, the descendant of Mahadji himself, has 100x less land than Khars or Bhutto. Pakistani ‘libs’ sure love their chains.
Cultural wars are being fought across national boundaries, they see him as their Donald Trump.
none of this will change short term:
I do not think Pakistan can scale into IT just yet, Lucknow or Jaipur or maybe even Dhaka will have it’s IT people before Pakistan. Young Pakistanis underestimate the effort involved (which can be a good thing).
I don’t think Pharma will ever happen in Pakistan. India set up colleges decades ago and we are still stuck cooking generic stuff that sells for 20 cents.
These things will not change no matter who comes to power. Pakistan will have to find it’s own niches.
Rare earth extraction in Afghanistan and Balochistan could have been something but Pakistanis are utterly inept at mining too.
They have so much good land but can’t even grow enough food! Pakistan is a tragicomedy all around, and even 10 IKs can’t fix it, but at least he is relatively honest.
Next ten years: I see majority of their talented people leaving for west and ME.
>I don’t get why Pak ‘libs’ hate IK so much? He did no one any harm.
Pak libs are part of status quo and feel threatened when some one from outside or inside threatens to shake the system. LUMS is filled with liberals and marxists that are sons and daughters of top bureaucrats, industrialists in bed with the political and military elite. They all intermarry and hold top positions of power, receive patronage, good jobs in government or media. They don’t want some guy to seize power who is going to rock the boat.
Waise housing societies badi sahi banate hain Pakistani. Bahria town, DHA, … remind me of Chandigarh, and better parts of Noida.
4-5K sqft ka ghar, Honda City car, 2 naukar, 1 guard, badhiya jogging park, chota-mota export ka vyapaar, ek-aadh petrol pump, … ladke ko Doctor-ee karwa ke ek-tho aspatal khulwa do, Bitiya ko LUMS mein padha ke kisi civil servant se biyaah do… Life chill hai…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEW8T7VUqW4
I feel like every Pakistani I meet online is from this class of people. Ones is school were even richer. Kuch saale Amreeka aake pehli bar train/Grey-hound mein baithe the, yahan saala 20 ke baad hawai-jahaj ki bohni ho paayi…
A few months in the US, the first time I met middle class Pakistani 7-11/Miraj-grocery/Khushbu-boutique/Mahreen-beauty-parlor type crowd, I felt so happy ki sahi hai, inka bhi chutiya kata hai…
Lets see what happens in next election. I will still say the Punjab pie will be cut somewhere around the middle or lets say 60-40 b/w PTI and PMLN. And considering that Sindh/Karachi will lean PPP , it will difficult for Imran to get back to power. And even if he still does, he will hamstrung in mostly the same way, he was this time around as well.
Punjab has 150 general seats of the 272. 60% of 150 = 90
90 from Punjab, 35 from KPK/FATA, 15 from Karachi would give PTI >50% of the seats in NA, so a majority government on its own.
And I think PTI is on track to win 115+ seats in Punjab.
Qureshi @,
What and How would things be different if IK had managed to remain in power? Iirc Forex reserves weren’t that great to begin with.
If bajwa and pmln had let IK stay in power then IK would have been rightly held responsible but such are strategic geniuses in khaki.
‘such are strategic geniuses in khaki’
If he was in power he would have let Faiz be chief and sacked the now chief Munir who had caught Peerni red handed.
If Munir lets IK win, then Khakis will show their true genius. As usual I am with Saurav on this one. But I guess Qureshi knows better.
@bhumiputra
The economy would have been stable, IMF program would have been seen through, Pakistan would have bought Russian oil last year not right now and rupee would not have depreciated like it did right now, inflation would have been much less.
However PTI would have lost 2023 elections since their overall 5 year performance would have been quite mediocre.
https://twitter.com/pratimbose/status/1617728606570188801
‘#Bangladesh paying price of fluffing growth by subsidies. After 50% hike in petrol, gas for industry & power costlier by 150-180%. 70% electricity from gas. This is beginning. Banks empty. Forex shortage. Huge debt. Missing #Indian economists who wr floored by BD numbers in 2020.’
As the saying goes, Bangladesh got the economy, WB was left with their economists
Just a closing note for
@J Khan @ Qureshi
You skipped over the crux of my statement
There is a ‘continuum’ all over India. You comparing Tamil Nadu to Punjab just shows how you want to gloss over this fact.
Kashmir to Punjab to Haryana to Rajasthan to UP to Gujarat……to Andhra, Telangana. It’s all a solid continuum.
And why would you not compare a more representative image, by considering the averages. Should Brahmins be considered the Bihari representative group?
Actually let’s go with what you propose. A Yusafzai Pashtun is a lot different considering they are neighbours of Punjabi Awans. And this is your muh Gandharan unity region.
Pathetic bringing up some admixed Iranics with an Iranic identity.
Seraiki & Sindhis break off with Southern Pashtuns & Baloch, and the distances are real big considering these are immediate neighbour populations. It’s stark. Even the Dard-like Pashtuns break off with Azad Kashmiri types. You are overlooking actual neighbouring populations for some random intermediates (even they don’t transition smoothly)
South Chinese are closer to Southeast Asians. Extreme North ones to Koreans. What matters is that it’s all in a cline. You can see the same in India, except with stark break-offs & gaps, which further cements the nation state’s basis. And over this you have cultural, linguistic, religious & social relations. You lot are arguing just to cope at this point.
Why do Punjabis & Tamils have huge non-geographical internal variation in its population but not Pashtuns? Why do you have Oil-pressing castes, scavenger communities? The differences are deeply rooted. East Pakistan is a part of the Indian civilization. It’s that simple.
You share so much more with immediate east than west.
The whole basis of your ‘nation’ falters on this ground.
Lmfao at the sem2sem accusations. I am a Rajasthani, and this Indic continuum I am talking about includes Southern reaches, Bengal, Nepal etc. Sure go on and try accusing me of inferiority complex. I am just stating an objective fact. I would rather not want to have much to do with the modern nation state of yours. In case you did not know, Hindu/Sikh counterparts of Punjabi Muslims are a lot more succesful & progressive. This gap will only increase, for overall India & Pakistan
“but but you want my women reee” This is your remaining argument. You can’t be serious.
@Blah
I was surprised myself that the genetic gap between Yusufzai Pashtun and Awan or Gujjars is quite noticeable. Like pretty sharp.
And the gap between tribal area Pashtuns and Punjabis in general is very big (not merely noticable and sharp, but actually large).
Also, people seem to forget that many Afghan Tajiks are very similar to all three types of Pashtuns (steppe rich, Iranic Central Asian-like central Pashtuns; Near Eastern rich Iranian Plateau-like southern Pashtuns; and the IVC-skewed northern Pashtuns).
For all three Pashtun groups, there are equivalent Afghan Tajiks just like them. Panjsheri and Kapisa Tajiks are like northeastern Pashtuns; some Tajiks in Paktia and Ghazni resemble central Pashtuns; the Tajiks of Kandahar resemble southern Pashtuns.
On top of that, Iranians from the east of that country grade seamlessly into the Pashtun cline. And in Tajikistan, the Pamiri Iranian peoples grade seamlessly into the Pashtun cline. So there’s a genetic cluster that includes Pamiri Tajiks, eastern Iranians, Afghan Tajiks (the ones who aren’t heavily East Asian-admixed), and all the tribal Pashtuns from Kandahar to Swat. There are clines in that cluster (eastern Persians in Iran are the most Near Eastern; Pamiri speakers are the most steppe/ancient European-skewed; northeastern Pashtuns are the most Indian-skewed), but the cluster includes pops that grade seamlessly into each other, and are genetically bracketed off from neighboring non-Iranic pops.
And like you’re saying, Indians and eastern Pakistanis are part of their own separate cluster, with their own clines.
The unity of India really is undeniable, and it includes Gandaharan Indians like the Hindkowan.
The Awans claim to be of Arabic-origins. Can you detect any Arabic genes by looking at their profile?
someone gets it.
And just to be clear I am not denying the differences within.
Just now you have seen me debate with that bangladeshi(wedifferent) guy about how Punjabis & Tamils are not the same.
There are a lot of differences which make absolute sense. All of such a widespread region can’t be exactly the same.
And You can argue about how close you feel to other sub-regions, it won’t change the fact that there is a common thread binding all of them.
Also Razib is lying about Afghans not being in a cline with Iranians to make Indians happy. Tajiks are as far from an Iranian_Fars as I (Gujjar) am from an Indian Gujarati. So if Punjabi-Gujarati is a cline, so is Tajik-Iranian!
Here are the distances:
Distance to: Gujar_Pakistan
0.09788674 Gujarati
Distance to: Tajik_Rushan
0.09994523 Iranian_Fars
Very disappointed Razib.
Let go brother. Any amount of strawmanning won’t prove your point.
First of all Gujarati & Punjabi districts are not immediate neighbours.
Second of all, as I have already mentioned, and as you have already conveniently ignored, you can’t just take any group to compare Indian subregions. Punjabi Gujjar will be much closer to certain Gujarati castes than others. Just take something representative, or else you will keep coping with this bs argument.
“UP Jat are closer to Afghan Pashtun than Bihari Dalit, hence UPBihar are not a continuum but UP-Afghanistan are” slightly exaggerated but this is basically your argument which you are trying to use in a mocking manner, but trust me its not working.
Keep fighting for your delusional idea of Pakistan. Pak Pashtuns, Baloch & Punjabis-Sindhis. They have nothing in common that binds them in a way that they can be a single state, seperate from respective regions in the east & west. Linguistics? NO. Genetics? NO. Religious history? NO
And dont bring that bs again ‘they are close’. of course they are neighbours! But what’s the binding factor please enlighten us.
And I don’t know why you haven’t answered that question. Why do Punjabis have caste structuring which is common to each Indian region. Tamil Nadu, Orissa the list goes on. Why do you have weaver caste in Punjabi society?
Why don’t Pashtuns have it. Even Society structures? NO there is no commonality.
“They have nothing in common that binds them in a way that they can be a single state”
Lol this guy needs to visit Pakistan sometime. He is too high on the ”indian civilization” theme. Trying to convince us that Punjabis/Pasthuns have less in common that Punjabis and Tamils or Sindhis & Baluch (who literally speak the same language and live in the same land) have less in common than say Sindhis & Bengalis. It’s absolutely hilarious.
i don’t even have to state that punjabis & kpk people are close. they are literally next to each other. And ofcourse they are closer to each other than say central & south Indians. This is not something that is going your way though, pakistan still has no civilizational basis. And India has a continuum. (by your logic no nation state can exist because border people are quite close to each other in some aspects. but the common thread, mostly language determines the larger identification. India has such strong markers that there is a lot more than linguistics that can be used)
you still havent answered how they are closer to each other than regions to the east (for punjab) & west (for kpk)
i know why. Because you can’t.
India has. I can’t see any caste structuring in non-Indian populations, and oh yes Punjabis do show it. It’s deeply rooted. Accept it. move on. Other linguistic,religious, genetic blah blah points just cement it.
I have no intention of getting into this ridiculous argument again. You are free to cook up whatever arbitrary basis you want to justify the British creation you live in. A modern nation state exists because it can, by force.
All I am pointing out that we are not sem2sem. A Punjabi and a Tamil or a Bengali have very little in common. They dont have the same culture, they don’t follow the same religion, they speak different languages, they don’t have the same diet, they don’t even look the same, they celebrate different festivals. 1971 made this very clear, but some Indians still sticking to this shit theory like flies on feces.
Just learn to accept the existence of Pakistan, its going to be good for everyone. Your utopian idea of this Indian civilisation based on the caste system cannot handle 200 million Muslims, I doubt you can handle 400 million more.
I just don’t understand how our neighbours are so adamant on the fact that there is no indic civilizational structure.
Linguistics+Society+Religion+Culture+Genetics together show such a strong continuum in the India-EastPak-Bangladesh-Nepal area that all we can do is laugh at this delusion of theirs
Ignoring all of the above & only focusing on genetics, they use jati-induced differences (which ironically is a feature of Indian society) to conveniently compare sub-regions to their own biases. Sorry but it doesnt prove anything. Also being closer to your immediate neighbour rather than other Indian regions 1000km away doesn’t prove anything either.
You overlap highly with Haryana/Rajasthan in east, but not with Pashtuns in the west. Judging with the same distances either side, Pashtuns a lot different. Even Genetics don’t support their delusion. Don’t get me started on other points.
last couple days feels like the good ol days.
thank me for it @warlock
Red Rain literally tastes like Red Bull but is cheaper by the can even though there’s more Red Bull per can than Red Rain per can wtf is it just the marketing
Hindenburg Research
Adani Group: How The World’s 3rd Richest Man Is Pulling The Largest Con In Corporate History
Today we reveal the findings of our 2-year investigation, presenting evidence that the INR 17.8 trillion (U.S. $218 billion) Indian conglomerate Adani Group has engaged in a brazen stock manipulation and accounting fraud scheme over the course of decades.
Gautam Adani, Founder and Chairman of the Adani Group, has amassed a net worth of roughly $120 billion, adding over $100 billion in the past 3 years largely through stock price appreciation in the group’s 7 key listed companies, which have spiked an average of 819% in that period.
Our research involved speaking with dozens of individuals, including former senior executives of the Adani Group, reviewing thousands of documents, and conducting diligence site visits in almost half a dozen countries.
Even if you ignore the findings of our investigation and take the financials of Adani Group at face value, its 7 key listed companies have 85% downside purely on a fundamental basis owing to sky-high valuations.
https://hindenburgresearch.com/adani/
“The independent auditor for Adani Enterprises and Adani Total Gas is a tiny firm called Shah Dhandharia. Shah Dhandharia seems to have no current website. Historical archives of its website show that it had only 4 partners and 11 employees. Records show it pays INR 32,000 (U.S. $435 in 2021) in monthly office rent. The only other listed entity we found that it audits has a market capitalization of about INR 640 million (U.S. $7.8 million).”
Lmao what the hell? Top members of the Modi government must be involved in the fraud for this to go on without any scrutiny by the Indian regulators.
-831x P/E ratio for Adani Total Gas. Stock gained by 2121% over the last 3 years.
-A legal structure that would make Enron executives blush
-Of the four partners who signed off the Adani audit, three were less than 28 years old.
Thanks for posting this @Roy. And an amazing work done by Hindenburg Research.
You’re welcome.
https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/genetic-vs-heritable-trait
Razib’s recent tweet reminded me of this good post of his.
blah “First of all Gujarati & Punjabi districts are not immediate neighbours.”
Tajikstanis and Iranian_Fars are not immediate neighbor either.
Dushanbe to Shiraz (Fars) direct distance: 1791 km
Lahore to Ahmedabad direct distance: 963 km
How much more will you beg to be one of us? By the way send me your G25 coordinates, since you’re the one making all these tall claims I need to show how far you are from us. Don’t make excuses now.
Depends what groups are compares. But you will gloss over and disown any, including significant minorities, that don’t fit your narrative. The Lahore sample is just as Pak Punjabi as an Indian Gujarati Lohana or Brahmin is Gujarati.
Same way Punjabiyat supremacist crowd likes to ignore the 30-35% dalit population of Punjab. Pak nationalists also hate that Gujaratis tend to have a good amount of Indus across the board and Gujarat is in Indus Valley maps. They want a certain narrative of separateness.
“XYZ is not a monolith” is a joke of an argument to make constantly. Even identical twins are different. So yeah, keep doing it. It’s not particularly tough to pull of any in circumstance.
@thewarlock
Lohanas are as Gujarati as I am, lol. Their genetic profile is similar to Bhatias, and close to Aroras and Khatris. I’m sure you understand what that indicates.
Does someone became native of a place if they stayed long enough? Can Parsis be called Gujarati or Marathi?
Also I don’t understand why you Jains toe the Brahmin/Hindutva supremacist line. I being a Pakistani Muslim am not part of their hierarchy, you and your loved ones are. If you converted to Muslim every Muslim in your local mosque would hug you and invite you to be part of their circle. If you converted to Brahmin.. well you can’t. The hatred is visceral, they will never accept you, or your children, or any of your descendent into their community till the end of time. What exactly is your problem? Do you non-Brahmins have no sense of dignity?
Lohanas are as Gujarati as I am, lol. Their genetic profile is similar to Bhatias, and close to Aroras and Khatris. I’m sure you understand what that indicates.
sindhi lohannas yes. guj lohannas, no. we have the data
> Says he doesn’t understand
> Continues talking
lol we literally have intermarried in my family with Brahmins (not just gujarati ones), patels, reddys, kasyasthas, and lohanas without issue. This Brahmin community not accepting Jains nonsense is a total farce.
“Intercaste marriage will get rid of caste” is the biggest fraud being imposed upon you non-Brahmin commoners.
Intercaste marriage is as old as the Vedas itself. The Vedas are full of intercaste marriage, with intercaste marriage leading to numerous more castes, not less castes.
The lowest caste in the Vedas are Chandalas, the union of Brahmin woman and non-Brahmin man. They are mentioned as the lowest of the low, the lowest among Dalits. Brahmins have always looked down on Brahmin marriages with non-Brahmins.
thewarlock the children from these marriages will not be accepted as Brahmins. You have no idea how most Brahmins look down on these marriages, and certainly it will not destroy Brahmins, because the children will not be accepted into Brahmin community.
Lmfao at J Khan. Oldest inhabitants? Everyone is mixed. What can you prove? What’s the red line someone becomes
native. You want some AASI cutoff? IVC cutoff? Story of this family moving or that? Nothing you say makes sense. We all have the three components. Everyone moves around. Why are you assuming the genders of the the intercaste pairings? Lol, regardless, your views are heavily biased.
You take Hinduism like it’s some hyper doctrinal faith like your and jump to most extreme interpretations. That’s just bad motivated reasoning or deep ignornace. You have 0 clue of ground area reality. I know why my family members had to flee their Karachi businesses in partition. My great aunt was hidden in a raincoat to flee. It sure as hell wasn’t Brahmin mobs.
Lmfao, keep “lower dharmics.” LOL please. A greater proportion of Gulf Arabs likely see you as a “lower Muslim” than modern Brahmin see me as a lower anything. Much of S Asia has dalit violence issues. Beyond that, this upper lower crap isn’t present like you want to believe. It’s just tribal level shit of everyone competing for top level and thinking they deserve to be there. Even that is dying in urban areas.
Anyway, at this point, engaging is useless. You are just arguing in bad faith.
By the way Blah, what is this “common thread” you speak of that only British empire territories in South Asia shares but absent in neighboring countries?
Can you be very specific? Like 1 example?
The common thread they speak of is in the past, its the ancient Aryan cultural/religious/linguistic heritage. They want you to acknowledge some kind of Aryan Solidarity, that’s it. They just don’t use the word “Aryan” as it is a loaded word with baggage.
Things going from bad to worse in Pakistan.
1. Majority of the Geneva conference pledges are just repurposed loans.
https://tribune.com.pk/story/2397567/of-isdbs-42b-only-600m-new
2. Just $4 billion in reserves with a $500 payment coming up this week.
https://tribune.com.pk/story/2397424/500m-due-with-only-41b-in-reserve
3. Senior PTI leaders being openly arrested for intimidation.
https://www.dawn.com/news/1733540/stop-this-madness-fawads-arrest-draws-ire-of-journalists-analysts-and-politicians
4. The USDPKR price cap is slowly being lifted. Hit >250 in the open market.
5. IK signals he will be complying with IMF. No matter who wins elections, the economic pain will increase.
https://www.brecorder.com/news/40222312/in-bloomberg-interview-imran-says-will-back-continued-role-of-imf-if-he-wins-election
@principia
While I too like other Indians can’t help smirking. Pakistan will not default. Nothing big will happen. Someone somewhere will come to their rescue. Pakistanis are good at Angreji haay-tauba, Arabi-mujra…
This whole drama will happen again in <10 years.
Pakistani civil society people who were protesting against Arab princes shooting Houbara bustards in Pakistan should reassess their 'aukaat' when it comes to dealing with Sheikhs. It would be so hilarious to watch if Arabis come to shoot birds a day after giving money just to rub it in.
IK should keep his mouth shut on airplanes about house of Saud. Pakistanis are very forgetful and will be flying to Turkey, Iran, in no time. Arabs are just taking their sweet time, showing them who is boss, and how 'equal' this relationship is.
On the other side of this, Arabs will own the big LNG terminals, maybe even a few power plants.
I generally concur with you Bhimrao. There is no way America, China and Saudi let Pakistan completely collapse. It is an essential part of all of their toolkits, quite remarkable in a way.
But maybe the general mismanagement and corruption is intersecting with some powerful forces this time ? They need to import large quantities of food and that always creates tricky situations.
” let Pakistan completely collapse.”
IMO there is no sign of even minor collapse.
—
“It is an essential part of all of their toolkits, quite remarkable in a way.”
Of these, Arabs are slowly being brought to our side. If we can’t afford to miff Iran so can’t the Pakistanis.
America and China will always use Pakistan to cut India to size.
China won’t throw free money.
That only leaves American ‘geostrategists’.
—
“But maybe the general … tricky situations.”
You are being charitable. I don’t think it is mismanagement. IK was a good leader, SS is also reasonable, I think Miftah and Atif Mian were brilliant. Pakistani people are low quality not the politicians, this fact will not change anytime soon.
—
We should worry about the damage Adani is about to bring to our own markets. This sort of fraud is deeply ingrained in up-and-coming Indian businesses and especially Gujju businesses.
—
I doubt Adani in the long term will cause that much damage. I mean its literally from Ambani’s playbook. If Ambani is today seen as a global player, and too big to fail (just not for India, but for the world), so will Adani in few years. This is the same way Jack ma or even Rockefeller rose.
Plus there is a chance that since majority of his revenue still tied to Indian market, he might rise as an Indian titan similar to Russian and Chinese titan and challenge them overseas.
https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/adani-led-group-completes-purchase-israels-haifa-port-2023-01-10/
I swear I saw this just seconds ago:
Here come the Arabs for their hunt.
https://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2023/01/25/sharif-hosts-uae-president-in-rahim-yar-khan/
https://www.dawn.com/news/1733495/suzuki-raises-prices-by-up-to-rs355000
Pakistani Alto is at 6.6 Lakh INR, WagonR at 9.6 Lakh INR. This is about ~1.8 times what Indians pay, Pakistani models are a generation or two behind too. This is
—
https://www.dhakatribune.com/business/2023/01/22/hyundai-opens-its-first-manufacturing-plant-in-bangladesh
Hyundai opens assembly plant in Bangladesh.
—
*admix is old for parsis
But urban intermarriage in modern era is breaking current endogamy.
On G25, I gave more Indus than Jatts of Punjab. Before aryan migration, the more OG locals are more similar to me genetically than them. Am I more native to that land then? What red line do you use?
By that logic thewarlock, I can claim the Levant because my OoA ancestors have been there, lmao..
Who is a native then? The oldest current inhabitants. You are not the oldest current inhabitant of Sindh.
You probably are the oldest current inhabitant of the region you live in (mid-castes generally are).
Can we get a static page with an FAQ about how Pakistan is not India etc ? I thought we settled this 75 years ago. But the discussion keeps reappearing.
My family has been through riots in New Delhi, Hyderabad, and Ahmedabad. We have seen what sides people fall on. Most people are good. But the biggest threat historically and even now is radical Muslims mobs. We know what the lines are. But everyone knows where the cards fall, when shit has hit the fan.
Hindus and Jains are very much cooperative dharmic brethren in modern day. There is hardly any animosity outside of usual caste based tribal stuff that pops up all over S Asia.
And oh. How convenient. If I adopt your exact ideology, I will be accepted. What’s amazing is that isn’t a requisite to be accepted in pluralistic minded societies, what most of urban Hindu society is. BJP has also broken caste lines. It scares the shit out of the Left who want to keep using caste.
You come from a very rigid, confessional, prostelyzing faith, when practiced the way it is in a theocratic Junta state like Pak. All the rapes and murders of dharmic peoples. I see it all. Rich of you to say how acceptance will workout if one gives up their entire religious identity. That’s not what tolerance is. The fact that you think that shows what your real beliefs are.
And Parsis are just as Gujarati as my family is. They have been in Gujarat for a long time and are integrated in the culture. Parsi DNA is also 25% Gujarati vania type of admix.
>We know what the lines are. But everyone knows where the cards fall, when shit has hit the fan.
Thanks for explaining how we all are not sem2sem
Blah should read this and try to understand.
https://www.brownpundits.com/2023/01/18/the-indian-overton-opposition-offensives/
thewarlock “if I adopt your ideology I will be accepted.”
I don’t do preaching. I honestly never cared much for other people.
Many Muslims do. They may be dumb, but their intentions are pure. They truly believe if you reverted, you’d be saved from hell. No matter how dumb it sounds to you, the intention isn’t bad at all.
Now coming to Brahmins, they want you to stay Dharmic. Not because they want to save you from hell. There is no hell in Hinduism. It’s all about power and politics. They don’t want lower sections of dharma becoming empty. Isn’t that obvious mate?
@ J Khan @ Qureshi
* I would like to see you two reply to points on this comment rather than blabbering ‘but weiz different’ without any backing
A nation has to have some basis, usually it’s linguistic grouping.
In Indian regions & East Pakistan, you can see cultural + religious + Social relations too.
You still want a common thread ‘example’ lmao
Since you can’t read what I wrote, I will just type it down in one line- why does punjabi society have structuring? you have oil pressing, scavenger, weaver castes. This structuring is typical of Indian civilizational regions, and it’s NOT found anywhere else. I don’t know why & @qureshi keep ignoring this
And there is a genetic ‘continuum’ too meaning neighbouring regions don’t show big gaps.
All you can reply is but we are closer to kpk than jharkhand and cope. Ofcourse you share some stuff with KPK. Every neighbouring region is close. How does this even relate to nation state groupings?
We are not sem2sem. Rajasthani are not same as Oriyas either. Point is all are binded by a larger civilisational basis. You can’t deny this and keep coping with ‘weiznotsem as Tamil’
Just apply your logic on linguistic groupings ‘Lorraine iz closer to Germany than south France, hence France has no basis’ you can see how stupid this sounds
Also for someone so keen on denying common threads of the Indian grouping. Why don’t you provide one for Pakistan? Your nation has 0 basis. KPK closer to Afghanistan & Punjab closer to Haryana/Rajasthan.
How can you still say Pakistan is a civilisational state
This is absolutely hilarious.
yeah Pakistan barring Balochistan/Pashtun place is pretty similar to India.
Btw with regards to the weaver scavenger etc caste thing, there exists no such groups in Bangladesh that are native to the land. There was that one outlier group within the BEB data set called the “Borgaons” or something and they were colonial-era imports from South India who scored like them.
The area and people of Bangladesh was also referred to as “impure”, “barbarian”(mleccha), sinful(papa) and such by the ancient Hindu texts because the people were outside the realms of Vedic religion and society and practiced their own beliefs and were considered “tainted”. The earliest mention of Pundravardhana for instance is through a Buddhist text. The people were Buddhists or animists or people who followed local religions. I don’t buy these Hindu nationalist propaganda points you keep bringing up btw if you wanna say we’re brown sure but nah to the sem2sem brozzer we wuz all so and so crap.
You are glossing over an important fact too.
Considering Bengali Muslim structure, who have probably lost caste identity, doesnt prove that Bengal isn’t part of Indian civilisation
There are Namasudra Dalits in East Bengal, who are native to Bengal and speak Bengali.
Again you come in with ‘wedifferent’ and when faced with actual facts you become a parrot
Bangladesh was 30% Hindu in 47, and considering a lot of Hindu converts in the 70% Bengali Muslim population, Hinduism must have been the majority religion. It’s clear as daylight.
You can cope any way you want, it won’t change reality.
Hindu nationalists can’t read lol
The oldest sites of any historical relevance are ALL Buddhist, all the stupas and viharas from Rajshahi, or Dinajpur, or Comilla, or Chittagong, or Narayanganj. The people were ORIGINALLY Buddhist or practitioners of local faiths which is why they were hated by the Vedics and referred to as sinful(papas) barbarians(mleccha, a term for people outside of Hinduism) lol.
This is just a simple fact, every long standing monument that is old has something Buddhist related to it including Mahasthangarh where there were multiple Buddhist stupas like Gokul Medh
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gokul_Medh
You can’t seem to accept historical facts. I’m guessing the “Facts” you speak of come from Abhijit Chavda or Hindu nationalist message groups because they contradict reality quite hard. Every single historical text including your precious Hindu ones considered us non-Vedic but somehow we wuz Hindu bro lmao
The Hindus of the area would have converted from Buddhism as well.
We is quite different from you, just accept the basic facts instead of continuously propunding your Hindutva fantasies
You just wrote a whole lot of nothing. Actually you accepted it yourself.
No one denies Buddhism+Local faiths existing. Even Bihar, UP have the oldest sites as Buddhist.
You just said ‘yes we were swallowed by the Indic civilisation and made Hindu majority at some point of time’
That mlechha bs doesnt prove anything. The same has been mentioned for Sindh, Bihar kingdoms and we all know they were Hindu majority and even now Bihar is. It had more to do with pure vedic rituals not being observed at some point rather than being non-Hindu.
Bengal has lower castes, and they did not mix to form a homogeneous group. It’s that simple.
Also 30% Hindu + Hindu converts would automatically mean Hindu majority before Islam and even some time after.
And this is just considering East Bengal, consider all of Bengal and it’s even more likely that Bengal was Hindu majority.
Keep coping brozzer. You can’t reply to these points.
You literally answered none of my points.
Nope, people converted from Buddhism/local religions to Islam, or from Buddhism/local religions to Hinduism. You creating your own little Hindu narratives won’t change what we have on paper. Vedic society, Aryan society was never Bangladesh, ever. All those other places Bihar or some shit were all originally Hindu, so what the fuck are you going talking about? The Gautama Buddha was born as a Hindu prince, you literal retard lmao so no, the oldest influences in North India and India as a whole would have been fucking Hinduism based off of simple history alone. This takes basic deduction skills which you seem to greatly lack.
If Bangladesh was ever really a part of this obviously bullshit Hindu system, the oldest sites and influences within would be Hinduism but alas that’s not the case. Shalban Vihara in the Mainamati site in Comilla or Somapura Vihara in Paharpur, Naogaon or Sitakot Vihara in Dinajpur or Pandit Vihara in Chittagong or others all show that Buddhism and local faiths were what people were practicing lol
Then you have the fact that there is no such thing as a weaver caste or scavenger caste or anything in Bangladesh and that pretty much seals the deal.
This blah guy is a dishonest, historically illiterate Hindutva propagandist lol we are quite objectively different historically and genetically.
@Blah
Is East Bengal really just all lower castes or is there a lack of endogamy? I think signals of endogamy can still be same if proportions of ancestry are relatively the same across multiple groups. So a PCA with Indus, steppe, and AASI may not pick it up well. But something else might be able to? I think Razib has said no caste like structure in the past and a geographic cline like most other places.
Blah thinks the oldest influences in North India and India as whole is Buddhist when Buddha was himself born in North India as a Hindu prince lmao how the fuck can Buddhism be the oldest influence when the guy himself was born after it, dumbfuck?
Blah also seems to gloss over one thing because he can’t dispute it and it’s the simple fact that Mahasthangarh is the oldest site of archaelogical relevance in Bangladesh and surprise surprise there are multiple Buddhist viharas there in Govinda Bhita and nearby in Gokul Medh. There are many ancient Buddhist sites but not any Hindu sites of that caliber lol yet India contains a shitton of much older Hindu sites.
This guy can’t seem to be consistent and he goes against his own Hindu books lmao
>A nation has to have some basis
– A common language
– A common religion
– A common army
– A common legal, political & taxation system
– A common contiguous geography
– Similar culture
– Similar cuisine
– Acceptance of the whole wide world.
Using the above category Pakistan is more of a nation than India is.
This is why you have to reach out thousands of years back, and the only thing you found common amongst all of India is fucking caste division, which emphasizes the deep divisions in the land, not nationhood. LOL
>Point is all are binded by a larger civilisational basis. You can’t deny this and keep coping with ‘weiznotsem as Tamil’
Sorry bud, there is no civilizational basis binding anything in India, not there ever was. Only the British managed to control the entire thing. Without the British, you would not even be able to communicate with a Tamil or a Bengali to discuss your civilizational aspirations.
It emphasizes common patterns in social structures across all regions. Amazing how you try to spin it
You don’t bring anything with those points. Back them up. Also it’s pathetic how you resort to bringing up modern taxation systems lmfao.
India-Pak-Nepal-Bengal region has common religious history, common linguistics, common social structures, genetic continuum.
Again skipping over the main question. Let’s just focus on these individual regions since you keep denying points in the Indic civilisation thing.
1)Take Punjab. To the Left we have KPK-Balochistan. To the right we have Haryana-Rajasthan. Who should Punjab be in a nation-state with on a civilisational basis? Obviously Haryana-Rajasthan
2)Also take KPK-Balochistan. It has Punjab in right and other Iranic regions on left. Who should they be with? Obviously Afghanistan/Iran.
I don’t care whether we have to be a modern nation state or not, how british united blah blah. The fact remains that this region is binded by a larger deeply rooted civilisational basis. All you can do is cope with differences within sub-regions of this civilisation. I am all for it, but try denying the larger binding and you will be served with actual facts.
Someone didn’t get the memo- there no civilizational basis except what the British made here. Punjab didn’t even want Punjabis of the other kind (it got religiously cleaned on both sides in 47 if you forgot) and here you are asking stupid rhetorical questions about how it will choose Haryana-Rajhastan because of some weird caste binding. wtf bro. your username checks out.
Punjab and KPK are living in relative peace together for almost 150 years now. In that timeframe, Afghans have genocided Hazaras and Turkmen, Punjabis genocided Punjabis, Kashmiris, Bengalis, Bengalis genocided Biharis etc etc.
But this guy still thinks some civilizational binding is in place.
1) Indian civilisational points
Modern religious hate is how you are trying disprove this? Absolute joke.
What about linguistics+culture+religious history+society structures.
Amazing, just amazing how you are denying the caste divided societal signals. It just proves how deeply rooted the basis is.
2) Pakistan civilsational basis
Lmfao you couldn’t respond to the question. Modern religious hate + weizliving peacefully is your basis??
This is absolutely hilarious. And any amount of spinning objective facts with ‘but what peace in last 60 years reee’ is just such a bad argument.
Modern India could have been balkanized and that still won’t change the objective fact that there is a larger Indian civilisational area.
For instance, Nagaland is a part of modern nation state, not the civilisational one. Sindh is part of the civilisational area. It’s that simple.
I just literally proved to you that we have little to nothing in common and yet here this guy keeps on repeating ”linguistic” ”culture” ”society”
Let me repeat. They dont have the same culture, they don’t follow the same religion, they speak different languages, they don’t have the same diet, they don’t even look the same, they celebrate different festivals. What civilizational basis?
Sindh is 40% Baluch, they have been living here peacefully for centuries now, speak Sindhi, follow all Sindhi norms and now even intermarry. Don’t see any ”civilizational” friction here lol. Compare this to ethnic Sindhi Hindus who left enmasse. Civilizational binding my ass.
Saying Sindhi hindu left enmasse is a bit cruel (as if they had a choice ) but ok …
S Qureshi:
“– A common language
– A common religion
– A common army
– A common legal, political & taxation system
– A common contiguous geography
– Similar culture
– Similar cuisine
– Acceptance of the whole wide world.”
Qureshi, mate, you forget the most important one, “a common colonial history”. Nothing else is needed tbh.
We were all subjects of same Queen/King. sem2sem.
Wouldn’t say we have common colonial history as well.
We have ethnicities/groups which supported colonial masters, and some who were complicit passively, and some who resisted.
https://twitter.com/HistoryBoomer/status/1618010838853652481
democrats dislike islam by -5, republicans by -42,
democrats like hinduism by +8, republicans dislike it by -7, republicans also dislike jehovahs witness more than islam, also dislke unitarian universalism by -24.
@ PencilMan
Let’s say Bengal was originally a Buddhist/pagan region. (there had to be vedic influences but let’s just go with your point. Even other regions could have been like this).
Don’t comment more on it
Fact is( which you yourself are accepting) is that Bengal came to be a Hindu majority region, and for a very significant period of time.
There are caste structures, can’t you read? The Namassej I brought up are a fishing+boatmen caste. A large section of Bengali Muslims may have lost or never had caste but overall Bengal is a caste divided society.
Repeat this after me “Bengal was a Hindu majority region with at the least some caste structures. It forms continuum with Eastern India”
This proves that Bengal is a part of Indian civilisation. It’s all so clear. Your use of abuses just shows how rattled you are by this fact.
dafuq lol
Did you just strawman me AGAIN? Since when was there ever proof of Bangladesh becoming a “Hindu majority”, you deceptive retard?
I explicitly stated in clear terms that the Hindus of the region would have been converted from Buddhism/local faiths and that the Muslims would have been converted from Buddhism/local faiths with some ofc converting from Hinduism.
a) Bangladesh was originally Buddhist. Don’t go around backtracking when you get called out lmao North India and your precious Bihar and other India places were HINDU and not Buddhist seeing Buddha was born as a Hindu
b) Bangladesh was not majority Hindu
c) Bangladesh was outside the folds of Hinduism by their own books and referred to as sinful non-Vedic impure barbarians so we were never the same as you to begin with
d) the original belief was always Buddhism and Hinduism only really was relevant in the 12th century. Bangladesh was a frontier zone to begin with and Hindu shit was late on the scene in Bangladesh and the ORIGINAL and LONGEST influence was historically Buddhism unlike other places like India where it was Hinduism by a long shot.
e) You’re not even right in the slightest lmao you’ve literally just commented straight up Hindutva fanfiction as if this is fanfiction.net. The longest standing and oldest places of any relevance are Buddhist monuments in Banlgadesh, no such Hindu temples of that kind exist, at all.
@PencilMan
It’s all boiling down to whether Bengal was Hindu majority or not. Anything else is cope.
It’s clear overall that Bengal was Hindu majority, let’s look at Bangladesh
30% Hindus in 1947 and considering some atleast 20%/70% which is conservative estimate, to be Hindu converts,
It’s all so clear that Bangladesh was Hindu majority.
Btw you are glossing over some caste structures too (Namassej, Pod) sure that cements it.
You are debating an objective fact. You can’t win. You can just use labels and abuses.
Blah,
I mean, I’ve outlined numerous key points related to the religious origin of Bangladeshis, the Buddhist background and how it was there from the beginning and how it was considered by Hindus and Hindu texts and how late the Hindu incursion was in the region and how the oldest things are all Buddhist which you’ve never been able to disprove.
25% of West Bengal was Muslim prior to Partition, and about 30% of East Bengal was Hindu prior to Partition so about even. Regardless, your sophistry is just another example of deflection. East Bengal was still 70%+ Muslim with more Muslims in the West.
Even assuming your historically inaccurate, diregarding of the facts of Bangladeshis being descended from Buddhists, it still wouldn’t mean much. You know why, Blah? Because the Bangladeshi Muslims of today are Muslim. They weren’t Hindu yesterday, nor were they Hindus ten years ago or a hundred or 2 hundred years ago. They would have converted hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years ago, according to historical records(from Buddhism and local faiths, and some from Hinduism ofc) like Eaton’s Bengal frontier book so they haven’t had a connection to Hindus in many centuries so no they aren’t culturally similar to you Indians either.
This is some real desperate. I see this from Indians a lot on twitter. They make fun of Bangladeshis on Twitter but so desperately call us theirs and want us to be part of their Hindutva liebensraum plan. Just let it go, Bangladeshi Muslims are descended from Buddhists(the overhwhelming majority of us) and even the ones descended from Hindus converted centuries ago, they have no connection to you guys. Or should I say we? Give it a rest with the “we are the same brozzer” schtick
Bengali Hindus are converts from Buddhism too btw
Haha you are backing off
Quite simple. Bengal(including East Bengal) was Hindu majority for a very significant period of time. Caste stuctures have seeped quite deep too. No answer on lower castes existing in Bengal/East Bengal society. I wonder why?
Even with your majority Bengali Muslim being Buddhist converts and what not, overall Bengal seems to be a very Hindu/Indian place civilisationally. Debating for nothing tbh.
-Bangladesh has no genetic caste structure, this has been highlighted by countless of studies which show a random clustering or one based off of obvious geographical factors unlike India and Pakistan
-Bangladeshi Muslims cluster with each other and OFF the Indian Cline unlike you and the Pakis because of our excess 13% Asiatic which pulls us significantly off-cline, so there is no proof of a caste structure, which is normal in Buddhist or societies that were formerly Buddhist like Bangladesh, where most converted from Buddhism so lower castes don’t exist
-the BEB outlier data set scored like South Indians and were insanely far away from us Bangladeshi Muslims. Obviously non-native, the data disagrees with you
-muh civilization. doesn’t and never has existed. Most Bangladeshi Muslims are descended from Buddhist or animist or local religion converts with some being from Hinduism. Bangladeshi Muslims are also religious Muslims and our ancestors converted many centuries before
-Buddhist predates Hinduism and has had the biggest influence on Bangladesh, with regards to social egalitarianism and other things and lack of class
-Again, for the billionth time, Hindu influence was late and didnt change much when it did occur in the 11th-12th centuries. The oldest sites are Buddhist. no such similar Hindu sites exist,
@ Qureishi
Again using modern nation state disputes ( which ironically you are accusing me of with muhbritish) as you are onto something lmfao
‘ but Sindhi Hindus ran away. weizcommon with baluch’
Using transitional areas does nothing. Literally every region has those. Even Sindhi groups have
recorded migration to Gujarat, and adoption of local language. This is a bs argument.
Since you can’t provide any Pakistani nation basis. (except weizliv in harmony)
I’ll just talk about the Indian one
I repeat those because you are ignoring those, ever thought of this? Caste structures in society existing only in these particular continuous regions is such a good example of the deep civilisational basis’ Sure go on and ignore it. Religiously too, Hindu-Buddhist patterns were common, albeit some non-Indian regions have those too so it’s not the defining factor. Linguistics, Sanskritic base and loanwords.
Try answering normally, without using welive peacefully & Bengali fight with Punjabi bs.
Yawns. Literally just answered point by point on why Pakistan ticks off more boxes as a nation than India, and still getting same civilizational bs.
Come up with a better excuse for sem2sem.
Lmfao why you act so smug when you are bringing up literally nothing. ‘Yawns’. “You just explained it” seriously?
And How exactly?
1) Linguistically KPK & Punjab are different regions
2)Religious History- KPK has no Hindus in their native population. Punjab was very much regular Hinduism influenced and still has 15-20% Hindus, compared to 0% Hindu Pashtuns
3)Culturally- Punjab & even South India observe festivals on the same dates. You don’t share this with KPK
4)Societal structures- Divided by occupation. Where are Pashtun leather-worker castes?
Where is the binding factor for Pakistan? I still can’t see it. Oh right it doesnt exist.
What’s the point though, I’ll just get another “but we are close to each other (no shit you are neighbours. where is the civilisational divider?’ “We live in harmony but youiz fighting’. “Same taxation system saar.” answer
Yawns. Reply to actual points instead of just saying there is no basis
Also dont accuse me of sem2sem, I have repeated numerous types sub-regions within are not same. Rajasthan, Orissa, Kerala are all part of larger India but still different. Use that as a straw-man again & it will just prove you have nothing going for your case. Well it already looks to be the case.
Punjab does not have have any Hindus. Neither does KPK. Both regions speak Urdu to communicate. Punjab is not divided by occupation in 2022. This is bullshit and something you cook up because you seem to be living in the past. The divisions in Punjabi rural areas ( majority population resides here) is between landlords and peasants. This is the same in Sindh. Both regions are connected, trade with each other, have the same government, same army, same taxation systems, quiet similar cuisine, same religion, same sect etc etc
This is more than you can say of any two areas of similar size in India.
Actually there is no point in history where Punjabis had more than common with South or East Indians than with Pasthuns.
Actually LOL’d at this lmfao. You are literally using modern markers instead of the civilisational one? what?
same govt, taxation like what? this is a modern invention. So much for someone who accuses me of using british involvement. We are talking about a civilization factor here, respected neighbour
West Punjab was mostly a 15% native Hindu region in 1947 after years of conversion. Did you just unironically say Punjab had no Hindus?
Mochis, Kumhars, Mussalis, Teli and a whole myriad of castes exist in Punjab with a specific occupation.
What even are you talking about?
I am continuously bringing up the same binding factors, and you are continuously ignoring them.
Again and again, the same weiz closer to kpk than Bihar. Brother the binding factors I list are common with Bihar rather.
Only things you have in common with KPK are due to being regularneighbours. No civilisational factor in play. Still didn’t get one from your side if you strongly believe in the opposite.
religion,sect like what again? that’s a defining factor? kpk should just merge with the islamic world then.
>same govt, taxation like what? this is a modern invention.
Err.. guess what: the entire concept of a nation is a ‘modern invention’.
> West Punjab was mostly a 15% native Hindu region
So is it now? No. Move on.
> I am continuously bringing up the same binding factors
Do you know the meaning of ”binding”? You have not even pointed to one factor that is ”binding”. LOL
The only ”binding” factor here is geography. Nothing else.
>Mochis, Kumhars, Mussalis, Teli and a whole myriad of castes exist in Punjab with a specific occupation.
You mean minority Dalit castes? How does that actually make Tamil Punjabi sem2sem? What is the ”binding” here? Anyway, most of these now have moved away from their traditional occupations. So, move on.
> Only things you have in common with KPK is due to being neighbours
Your different ethnic groups in India don’t even go to the same temples. Come visit a mosque sometime, you will not find a ”Pakhtun mosque” or a ”Punjabi mosque”.
Please just move on with your life. We not sem2sem. Most of us don’t care about ”civilizational binding factors” you have cooked up. You speak different language, follow different religion, have different customs, look different, talk different, eat different.
But guy wants sem2sem acknowledgement from us. Anyway man, im done for the night. I think Truschke was right, many Hindutvadis still living in 1000 BCE and talk like it was all yesterday.
To Blah and anyone else,
Bangladesh is a literal nation-state.
-98% of the people of BD are ethnic Bengali folks, which means there is an ethnic and in turn genetic connection among us
-we have and speak our own language and it’s official and quite important to us, and it’s called Bengali
-we share a similar history
-we share the same food and cultural outlooks
-similar traditions and world values
Sure, we share some of those too with our West Bengal ethnic Bengali folks who account for what 7% of India but that doesn’t detract from the fact that Bangladesh is its own, separate unique existence. There’s areas in Italy much closer to their Swiss counterparts than their Sicilian counterparts. There’s areas in France(Alsace) that are closer to Germans than people from elsewhere.
So what? What’s the significance of pointing this out, blah? The only time “we” were ever “together” was when a foreign imperial power(the Brits) conquered us through sheer military force. It wasn’t some mutual thing. I guarantee you most Bangladeshis in Bangladeshis or diaspora dont even know what a Rajasthan even is, much less other Indian states. I doubt they even cared about their colonial era counterparts during that era considering they would never have interacted with them or if they did would see them as too different.
We are not the same, we don’t look the same(or similar), we CAN’T be the same and we don’t WANT to be the same. You have to take heed of these things.
@PencilMan
So you have accepted that Bengal was indeed Hindu-ised.
I also agree you are essentially your own region. Identify as whatever.
But how conveniently you just use this train of debate when it comes to your own region, and not anything else.
Punjab is different from Madhya Pradesh. Himachal from Maharashtra. UP from Karnataka. Who denies this? Also, looks wise ( I don’t why you are fixated on looks other than linguistics,society,culture etc but anyways yes these regions are different in phenotype too)
Just accept that there is a binding, civilizational factor. There is a larger concept of India, and for you unfortunately, it includes Bengal.
Already mentioned, idgaf about british involvement. Sikkim, Nagaland etc are not Indian regions, we still have them. I am never using british involvement here, so that’s a pure straw-man.
Bengal was originally Buddhist unlike India so you can keep parroting yourself over and over again, we were always different. The HIndu influence didn’t change a whole lot. You strawman one thing after the other because all of your points lack merit in logic and historical accuracy. 25% of West Bengal was Muslim lol and East Bengal was at 70% Muslim. A place that was “Hinduised” wouldn’t have such high numbers of it and I doubt it was considering we lack the caste structure of pakistan and india that were hinduized.
You repeat yourself over and over even when you’ve been proven wrong with easy facts. That’s how it goes with you Hindutva fools. There is no such connection considering we have been Muslims for the longest time and Buddhist before then.
https://pakgeotagging.blogspot.com/2015/02/partitions-of-bengal-in-1905-and-1947.html
Bengal is 53% Muslim in 1947. That’s literally an almost half/half divide
Considering converts it’s so obvious Bengal was Hindu-majority. For more than a millenium, Bengal was witnessing conversion away from Hinduism
This just proves you were Hindu majority region for a significant period of time. Don’t spin it,
Caste structures are easily visible. Can’t you read? I have named a few of them. Looking at pre-47 Bengal, a lot of regions even in East Bengal were caste-ridden.
Let’s agree some were buddhist/pagan and were not showing caste structures. It’s clear that they were not >50%.
You are denying actual facts, not me.
“pakgeotagging”
LMAO. Discarded. What a great source.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_Bengal_(1947)
” An estimation suggests that before Partition, West Bengal had a population of 21.2 million, of whom only 5.3 million or roughly 25 percent were Muslim minorities, whereas East Bengal had 39.1 million people, of whom a staggering 11.4 million or roughly 30 percent were predominantly Hindu minorities”
It’s an objective fact that 70% of East Bengal/Bangladesh was Muslim. 25% of the West Bengal area was also Muslim the absolute audacity to suggest Bangladesh was 53% Muslim/non Muslim lmao
Also, prove that Bangladeshis have caste structure. Every single cluster plot with Bangladeshi Muslims show us completely randomly and without caste variation, you are OPENLY LYING, you propagandist.
Even Razib has posted about this speaking about the geographical variation and how no such caste structure exists in Bangladesh.
The oldest sites in Bangladesh are Buddhist, just a simple fact, not Hindu. Hinduism came late and didnt make much of an impact most of the Muslims today converted from Buddhism . They are still different from you because they are muslims. Keep sem2semming online
‘To Blah and anyone else,’
Bro, there is no one else… 🙂
@ Saurav
That’s what I thought too lol
Lone wolf grindset 💪
Wowza @ Qureshi has just accepted that India-East Pak regions were indeed a civilisation.
All he has are modern systems. Ok brother no one is denying this. You have same governments. Happy? What a civilisational commonality.
btw very small minority dalits? nah brother they are huge with each caste having population in millions.
talk different, eat different. I just labelled down each of those 1)linguistics 2) religion 3)society 4) culture with examples
guys, every single sub-region in the world has differences. some have a common factor that distinguishes a cluster of them from the others. That’s what I am talking about here.
I am happy using the past, guess because we are talking about a civilisational basis?
*Punjab has no hindus, thing of past* .> using actual british intervention effects which you accuse others of.woah.
right brother, enjoy your no-basis modern nation state that is destined to fail
Guy is pointing to ‘linguistic’ civilizational basis. A Punjabi and Bengali speak different languages, they literally fought over language not too long ago.
But hey you eat mango we eat mango we all sem2sem civilizational binding haha
By the way, the fact that Indians see themselves as Indian, this is a British thing right? It’s like 1.4 billion identifying from a eurocentric/euro-mistake perspective.
The Mughals had extended the definition of Hindustan (again, a non-native mistake) to include Western UP but even that is a stretch.
How many Marathi or Bengali identified as Hindustani before British arrival? Or even right after British arrival? The British forever changed the meaning of “Indian”, originally meaning native of Punjab & Sindh, apart from creating other new identities such as the umbrella term “Hindu” to unite non-Muslims (part of Divide & Conquer policy).
Let’s assume there were no British. Let’s assume India was balkanized. Let’s assume no one saw of them as ‘Indian’ nationality-wise.
And now my points begin. About the civilisational basis. These don’t need any modern nation states for that.I have repeated numerous times about how there is a common binding factor based in religious history+society structures+linguistics+culture.
You lot are hopeless. A cluster of different sub-regions having a larger common basis doesnt strike you at all. Just deluding yourself for justifying your existence. Btw Pakistan basis. Where?
It’s just that most of modern India are actually part of the civilisational concept of India. Nagaland, Sikkim etc are exceptions and this just proves how we are not riding on muhbritish unity.
@blah
Let’s assume? You can’t. I cannot assume life without my parents. Because I was never orphan. Any imagination based on such assumption will ALWAYS be wrong, no matter how intelligent I am.
I can’t tell what would have happened without colonialism. History is unpredictable.
We did get a lot from colonialism though. Apart from infrastructure and railways and industries, both Hindus and Muslims follow Victorian era British family values and other colonial era culture.
It’s funny when Indians tell Westerners in their own countries “in our culture, we.. “.. you are basically teaching them culture they imposed on you and have long abandoned.
no, the family values were similar. unbrainwash yourself.
there were some differences btwn Muslims and hindus, obv, but basically all eurasian societies have a core set of agricultural based societal values
Razib, we marry in our late 20s, start a nuclear family, send our children to school to study until 18 instead of off to farms or battlefields at 12, our kids go to university, graduate, get a job and the cycle repeats .. it wasn’t like this during Mughal times, our lifestyle was a lot different.
We borrowed this model directly from the British and Europeans.
I don’t know about you Americans, but we Pakistanis certainly didn’t develop this model in house. How am I brainwashed?
What even?
Lmfao I am using ‘let’s assume’ because the points I have raised are objective facts, and wouldn’t have changed whether we had the British or not.
A common Hindu-Buddhist past , common linguistic zones + influence, structuring of society, same dates for festivals.
but but these are british constructs saar.
‘I will keep denying facts because they question my nation state’s existence & identity’ just say this and move on.
@blah I’m not convinced by alternate history arguments.
A guy as smart as Razib couldn’t predict how his life would turn out had he chosen a different career track, and here you are, whatsapp university graduate, trying to predict alternate history on a global scale.
In our culture, we strive to minimize suffering.
In our culture, we respect elders unconditionally. Mata, pita, guru, deivam.
In our culture, we venerate our ancestors.
In our culture, we crisscross the land on tirtha yatras.
We also eat with the right hand and wipe with left.
We got all this from British wonly.
> we marry in our late 20s, start a nuclear family, send our children to school to study until 18 instead of off to farms or battlefields at 12, our kids go to university, graduate, get a job and the cycle repeats .. it wasn’t like this during Mughal times, our lifestyle was a lot different.
That’s the progression from a feudal society to a capitalistic society, per Marx. Did India ‘borrow’ capitalism from the Europeans? Yes. We progress in our own way, first it was the parsis, then Baniyas and Brahmins, now it’s the others.
Just like the way Japan and Korea did it. Just like China is doing it in their own way.
Culture and means of production will affect each other. All that doesn’t mean that we stop being ‘Indians’. French were French before and after their revolution; to simplify, they just added liberty, equality, fraternity to their cultural values system.
@ J Khan
I quite LITERALLY am talking about factors which were not under british influence. Tf?
Punjab would magically have lost its Mochi caste if British weren’t there? Yeah right. Language & religious history too. Wow the british were onto something.
lol don’t forget all the “rajput” claims of Pak. And endogamy remains preserved to the highest level.
Actually, new subcastes or whatever euphemism you want to use like “biradris” are forming everyday with the 50+% rate of cousin marriage. Enjoy
Bengal was originally Buddhist
Classic.
I seriously don’t get what delusion goes on in the mind of our neighbours. I’ll try ending it on this note
EVERY sub-region in the world is different. Every two neighbouring ones are generally closer to each other than some regions 1000km away.
But alas, there are still larger groupings and clusters of these sub-regions are binded in a way that you can form borders somewhere.
Understand this for your own sake. or you already have and are trying your best to ignore it.
I have provided Binding factor for Indian region. Linguistics (Sanskritic base +influences) (Societal Division. Occupation based castes) ( Religious History- Hindu+Buddhism) (Culture- Calendar and festival observations) (Genetic continuum without gaps)
These are common to ‘India’ and are pretty solid factors.
This ‘Indian’ grouping unfortunately for our neighbours include Punjab,Sindh & Bengal.
I don’t want to hear British unity nonsense since I have already denied using it. If anything Pakistanis are using it for
‘Punjabis have no Hindus in their population’. Also try providing one for your own region except govt+taxation+sects+harmony. You just can’t.
@ PencilMan
So much arguments on ‘you can’t read’ and you end up mistaking overall Bengal for Bangladesh
It’s clear Bengal as a whole was Hindu majority. Yes 46% in 1947. Even regions of Bangladesh were 30% so you can sense a Hindu majority in the past. Keep coping. Saying that not even 2/7 Bangladeshi Muslim are Bengali Hindu converts is pure delusion
Caste structures? I have just linked occupation based castes found in Bengal again and again. even East Bengal. You don’t have any genetic studies on them and hence you can’t comment on any structuring. Point is, caste exists in Bengal, quite deeply.
neighbours on copium-watch today
this stuff about pak/ind/beng difference is cringe. but two pts
1) in 1900 there was no controversy about indian Muslims calling themselves indian Muslims.
2) whatever args ppl have here, ppl in Iran, or Malaysia, or egypt, are clear that indo-pak-bang similarities are a thing. this is not dispositive, but it’s also a fact
@ Razib
I know you understand the existence of a common thread. Stating that ‘others viewed the region’ as same is a good point, but you have to follow it with the actual reasons behind it.
You can see that every Indian region has atleast a decent amount of caste structuring, which is not found anywhere else and is very typical for the Indian civilisation regions. other religious+cultural+lignguistic facts I have already glossed over. I have become a parrot thanks to neighbours on this forum.
But I must state again, every sub-region is different. But there are binding factors that separate a particular cluster from the other. It’s a very simple concept.
You can see that every Indian region has atleast a decent amount of caste structuring, which is not found anywhere else and is very typical for the Indian civilisation regions.
just to be clear: strong caste structure among Muslims of Pakistan. almost none in Bangladesh (this perplexed ppl at sanger, who had never seen this among their s. asian samples)
@ Razib
I am talking Bengal as a whole. Using Muslim converts who tend to lose caste status (not every region is like Pakistan) doesn’t really prove much. The region of Bengal still has a decent amount of caste-structuring, whether East or West. It is a part of the Indian civilisational grouping on this ground alone
Wut? You Bangladeshi mlecchas wuz Buddhist…You get to read RC Majumdar’s History of Bengal’s page 36 only page 36 and pass it off as wisdom here. You ” “impure”, “barbarian”(mleccha), sinful(papa) ” pepul don’t get to mention Vanga, Anga, Pundras from Mahabharata…, you wuz mleccha, so were the all the Madraasis (Yay! @Enigma) , Marathis, Gujjus, Sindhis, … don’t you know?
—
I hope you know now the answers you were looking for about where ‘division’ stems from.
—
So wut if oldest temples ANYWHERE in India come 8-9 centuries, almost a millenia after the oldest buddhist viharas. Show me a temple malecchas, else you are a Buddhist. Who cares about scriptural evidence? You wuz Buddhist and animist, and Mormons before that. Your great-great-great-grand papa was lovingly shown the light of Pisslam by Bakhtiar Khilji himself, or Al Baghdadi oh so-sori I meant Shah Jamal.
Go back just 50 years before 1900 and there was no ”indian muslim” or indian hindu. What happened in 1857? Or go back to 1757. Or 1700 or before.
All this ‘Indianness’ didnt permeate deeper than the literate elite (mostly top 10% of society). Local peasants mostly lived and died within 10 miles of where they were born, and wouldn’t have given two shits about someone 200 miles away let alone 2000.
This is why when people use words like modern European words ”borders” and ”civilization” and ”nation”, they are fundamentally misrepresenting pre-modern people. It’s mostly driven by a modern agenda. We all know what that is.
denying everything. clear religious unity too
sure ganesh and shiva idols/status are coincidentally common between Kashmir & Tamil Nadu.
What a whole lot of bullsshit these pakistanis spout.
This is why when people use words like modern European words ”borders” and ”civilization” and ”nation”, they are fundamentally misrepresenting pre-modern people. It’s mostly driven by a modern agenda. We all know what that is.
this is what you would think if you had some college education. but this is not really true. the usage of “quotes” is classic midwittery. you are probably smarter than most people, but definitely not everyone. i wish you would listen to your betters, but this is what it is.
if you want to follow-up, Azar Gat has a book on the deep origins of nationhood that’s not too ideologically.
more concretely, things like the “peoples’ crusade” and the religious revivals of late medieval Europe (preprotestant) show that popular-mass culture was not purely localized. this of course is not to deny that media driven mass culture hasn’t changed things…
(q.’s views are ones promoted by woke midwits as definitive, so i get why he’s repeating them, and i would have too as well when i was 20 because that’s what i was thought and before i read more widely and thought more deeply)
indian muslim identity existed a long time ago. see *The Idea of the Muslim World: A Global Intellectual History* by aydin where he outlines their leadership role in much of the 19th century (and earlier with deoband).
second, read ibn battuta if you don’t think indian Muslim identity didn’t exist.
A Muslim identity exists vis-a-vis non-Muslims, this is literally a major theme in the Quran. Don’t mistake this for an Indian Muslim identity. This is not to say the the Muslims would not identify with their ethnic or tribal group, infact most of them primarily did. However ‘Indian’ is not an ethnicity. Most Muslim peasants would not care or have know about ”India” until the British came about and told them they are part of a British administered country called India. You keep saying how arabs, mayalsians or europeans would consider pak-ind-ban the same. Yeah bro so do we consider all goras the same. Doesn’t mean France Germany sem2sem.
How many local peasants have you interacted with? Go to interior Sindh and speak to people walking around without shoes. Most people only care about their family, clan/tribe, their linguistic group, their religion and religious sect and that is about it. Their consciousness and concern does not extend beyond that. It is only with literacy, knowledge and some education that they start even understand the concept of a nation state.
We literally experience ethnic riots first hand and saw how not even Islamic bond resolved local ethnic issues between different groups inside Pakistan., and here some guy from Haryana is going about telling how we are sem2sem and how there are imaginary borders splitting Pakistan and uniting its groups with Tamil Nadu or Bengal.
It’s hilarious, it’s funny. We know why they do it, we know the agenda behind it.
Some fun quotes from foreign visitors to India through the ages
“India which is in shape quadrilateral has its eastern as well as western side bounded by the great sea, but on the northern side it is divided by Mount Ilemodos…while the fourth or western side is bounded by the river called Indus..”
““It is said that India, being of enormous size when taken as a whole, is peopled by races both numerous and diverse, of which not even one was originally of foreign descent, but all were evidently indigenous; and moreover that India neither received a colony from abroad, nor sent out a colony from abroad.”
Megasthenes
“The people are numerous and happy; they have not to register their households, or attend to any magistrates or their rules; only those who cultivate the royal land have to pay a portion of the gain from it. If they want to go they go; if they want to stay they stay. The king governs without decapitation or corporal punishments. Criminals are simply fined; . . . even in cases of repeated attempts at wicked rebellion they only have their right hands cut off. . . . Throughout the whole country the people do not kill any living creature, nor eat onions or garlic. The only exception is that of the Chandalas. . . . In that country they do not keep pigs and fowls, and do not sell live cattle; in the markets there are no butchers’ shops, and no dealers in intoxicating drinks.”
Faxian
“They would not kill an animal on any account, not even a fly, or a flea, or a louse, or anything in fact that has life; for they say these all have souls, and it would be a sin to do so.”
“All the people of this city, as well as of the rest of India, have a custom of perpetually keeping in the mouth a certain leaf… continually chewing it and spitting out the saliva that it excites… If anyone desires to offer a gross insult to another, when he meets him, he spits this juice in his face.”
Marco Polo
“The chief cause of India’s ruin has been the monopolising of the whole education and intelligence of the land, by dint of pride and royal authority, among a handful of men.”
Al biruni
@thewarlock all mention of Hind refers to Sindh and Punjab, and not what you call India today.
Lol wrong again. You again argue in bad faith. You have no idea about facts. Al Biruni visited gangetic plains and Punjab. So did Megasthenes. Faxian visited gangetic plains. Marco Polo Southern India. You keep scoring own goals. Punjab and Sindh were very much part of the definition of India. Al Biruni’s geographic descriptions of the borders of India were apt.
Albiruni
“Al-Biruni’s accounts also state that the entire nation was divided into little states that would occasionally enter into conflict. Among them were the states of Malwa, Sindh, Kannauj (in UP), and Kashmir. Here are some of the observations made by Alberoni in his book about India -”
Marco Polo
“During the two-year return journey by sea across the Indian Ocean, while returning home from China, Marco Polo arrived on the Coromandel Coast of India in AD 1292. He entered the kingdom of the Tamil Pandyas near Tanjore. He visited Southern India during the reign of Rudramma Devi of the Kakatiya Dynasty..”
Faxian
“He visited Kapilvastu (Lumbini), Bodh Gaya, Benares (Varanasi), Shravasti, and Kushinagar, all linked to events in Buddha’s life.”
Megasthenes
“Megasthenes visited the Mauryan capital Pataliputra (Bihar), but it is not certain which other parts of India he visited. He appears to have passed through the Punjab region in north-western India, as he provides a detailed account of the rivers in this area.”
They visited Punjab and Ganges so what? They visited entire world.
Quote one line from Faxian or Al Biruni that refers to Magadha or Sri Lanka or Bengal as Hind! Real lines from their text, not 3rd party analysis of the text.
Quote one line from Faxian or Al Biruni that refers to Magadha or Sri Lanka or Bengal as Hind! Real lines from their text, not 3rd party analysis of the text.
Faxian (known in Sri Lanka as Fa-Hien) Visited Sri Lanka in 400AD.
Quote from Article linked below
Carries some invaluable historical information on Sri Lanka not found in the Sinhala Chronicle Mahavamsa. The most noteworthy of these is the vivid description of the ceremonies connected with the exposition, procession conveying the Sacred Relic of the Buddha from the then King Mahanama’s Palace to the Abhayagiri Vihara and also of Anuradhapura city, the King and the people of Anuradhapura at the time was a well-planned, beautiful city
Marco Polo
This snnippet is about Kerala/Malabar
In this province the natives, although black, are not born of so deep a dye as they afterwards attain by artificial means, esteeming blackness the perfection of beauty. For this purpose, three times every day, they rub the children over with oil of sesame. The images of their deities they represent black, but the devil they paint white, and assert that all the demons are of that colour.
CHAPTER XIX OF THE ISLAND OF ZEILAN
Angaman, and steering a course something to the southward of west, for a thousand miles, the island of Zeilan presents itself.
This, for its actual size, is better circumstanced than any other island in the world
It is governed by a king whose name is Sender-naz.1 The people worship idols, and are independent of every other state. Both men and women go nearly in a state of nudity, only wrapping a
cloth round the middle part of their bodies. They have no grain besides rice and sesame, of which latter they make oil. Their food is milk, rice, and flesh, and they drink the wine drawn from trees, which has already been described
The island produces more beautiful and valuable rubies than
are found in any other part of the world, and likewise sapphires, topazes, amethysts, garnets, and many other precious and costly stones.
The people of this island are by no means of a military habit, but, on the contrary, are abject and timid; and when there is occasion to employ soldiers, they are procured from other countries, in the vicinity of the Mahometans. Nothing else of a remarkable nature presenting itself, we shall
proceed to speak of Malabar.
CHAPTER XXIII OF THE ISLAND OF ZEILAN
Description of Journey to Adams Peak
Marking 1600th anniversary of Fa-Hien’s visit to Sri Lanka
https://www.tipitaka.net/community/news.php?page=100808e3
@sbarrkum can you re-read what I said, at least 5 times and then clarify how you addressed the point I raised? I think in your haste to respond you didn’t read properly.
Fa Hien Cave
From Wiki
Fa Hien Cave, also Pahiyangala Cave, is situated in the district of Kalutara, Western Province, Sri Lanka and according to a rural legend, named after an alleged resident during historical times, namely Buddhist monk Faxian (also Fa-Hien, or Fa Hsien). However, there is no archaeological or historical evidence to support this legend.[1] Nonetheless, the site is of archaeological significance as Late Pleistocene human fossilized skeletal remains were discovered in the cave’s sediments during excavations in the 1960s, the 1980s and in 2013. This is the largest natural stone cave in South Asia. 3500 people can stay here at the same time. To see the size of the cave, you have to go inside and look outside. Humans have lived here for 35000-60000 years.They used sea fish, salt, and shark teeth as ornaments. This limestone was formed by corrosion over hundreds of thousands of years.
The oldest fragments of human bone fossils are attributed to three children, a juvenile and two adults that show evidence of secondary burials. The bodies had been exposed to decomposition and scavengers and the bones were subsequently placed in graves.
Additional fossil remains include those of another young child, dated to about 6,850 years BP and of a young woman (nicknamed Kalu-Menika by archaeologists), dated to about 5,400 years BP. Both individuals were also recovered from secondary burials.
The discoveries allowed archaeological and paleontological comparative studies as the earliest occupants of Fa Hien, or Pahiyangala Cave lived during the same period as European Cro-Magnon man and other Late Pleistocene hominids in the Eastern Hemisphere. Studies of teeth found in the cave indicate that the prehistoric population of Sri Lanka processed food by grinding nuts, seeds and grains in stone querns and that they continued to maintain a hunter-gatherer lifestyle until about the 8th century BCE. Sri Lanka has yielded the earliest known microliths, which didn’t appear in Europe until the Early Holocene.
occupants of the Fa-Hien Lena cave had developed bow and arrow technology 48,000 BP. This is the oldest use of this technology outside of Africa. The researchers found items associated with freshwater fishing, as well as the working of fiber to make nets or clothing. Lead author of the study, Michelle Langley of Griffith University, said, “We also found clear evidence for the production of colored beads from mineral ochre and the refined making of shell beads traded from the coast, at a similar age to other ‘social signaling’ materials found in Eurasia and Southeast Asia, roughly 45,000 years ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fa_Hien_Cave
According to the eleventh century writing of the Arab scholar and scientist Al-Biruni, ancient Sri lankans were aware of the technology to treat spinel varieties to eliminate unwanted hues and to enhance colour and clarity (Themelis,1992)
The 10th Century Arab historian Al-Biruni or Abu Rihaan Muhammad called the Island Sarandip and “Singal-dip”-also derived from Sinhala and dipa.
Alberuni’s India: An Account of the Religion, Philosophy, Literature,Geography, Chronology, Astronomy, Customs, Laws and Astrology of India about A.D. 1030, (ed), Edward C. Sachau, Vol. 1, Kegan Paul, (London, 1910), pp. 209, 267 & 301-303
Yeah bro so do we consider all goras the same. Doesn’t mean France Germany sem2sem.
france and Germany are part of western christendom. this is a clear identity as far back as the fall of charlemagne’s empire. do you know this or are you ignorant of it?
fwiw, i’ve interacted with bangladeshi peasants, i know what you’re alluding to. it’s a real phenomenon. but what people like, or those who argue that national identity is a post french revolution literacy thing, is that it’s a binary. the early Islamic era revolts in Iran was not just the nobles, the local people also rose up, because they were aware of their differences from the conquerors.
did literacy and mass media increase the salience of nationality? yes. but it was there long long ahead, and went back and forth depending on the society and culture (eg the greeks were highly nationalistic despite their division into city-states, arguably late medieval western Christianity was on the less nationalistic side because of the cross-linkages of the church and nobility across the continent).
i know you have strong opinions on this. but please understand i’ve forgotten more than you actually even know about this topic. you can still think i’m wrong, but don’t act like you are telling me anything i didn’t read when i was 18. i did.
Razib – “the local people also rose up, because they were aware of their differences from the conquerors”
They rose up to protect their farms, their women and everything they own. They were riled up to revolt or lose everything. Arab rule in Persia was rough, you know it.
It wasn’t because they identified with the high culture of Yazdegerd’s court.
They rose up to protect their farms, their women and everything they own. They were riled up to revolt or lose everything. Arab rule in Persia was rough, you know it.
you don’t know what you are talking about. there’s an extensive literature on the rise of Zoroastrian millenarian cults (and later ismaili/shia ones). you can easily point to the contrast with the semitic speaking mostly Christian areast that never revolted because they were integrated into the ethnic-tributary system earlier (arab Christian tribes initially did not pay dhimmi tax).
stop making shit up based on your assumptions, even if they are reasonable, or I’ll ban you like i did scorpioneater for flagrant midwittery. i’ve already seen you make shit up in other comments (if you reply to this i’l delete your comment and ban you). moderate intelligence ppl like you speaking as you have anything deep to say is worse than when obvious morons speak.
[also, really taxation burdens were not that bad in antiquity; the main issue is taxation during famine]
[also, really taxation burdens were not that bad in antiquity; the main issue is taxation during famine]
Always vaguely wondered why the ancient peasants were revolting all the time despite the low effective tax rate they actually had to pay. Perhaps they were proto-libertarians! Your answer makes a lot more sense.
if you are on the margins of subsistence and what not taxes pegged to normal times are a disaster during lean/famine times. in some of these polities peasants who did not pay were severely punished. so this presented the option of just rebeling against authorities because what did they have to lose?
the punitive nature of ancient laws can be illustrated in the life of the founder of the Han dynasty: “Liu was responsible for escorting a group of penal laborers to the construction site of the First Emperor’s mausoleum at Mount Li. During the journey, some prisoners escaped; under Qin law, allowing prisoners to escape was punishable by death. Rather than face justice, Liu freed the remaining prisoners and fled. Liu was joined by some of the grateful ex-prisoners, and he became their leader.”
It is important that any polity be open to reasonable accommodation. Not an expert on either sun tzu or arthashastra, but the post-47 India has generally tried to accommodate all the diversity within. Basically a version of kautilya’s “sam”, “dand “ and “bhed”. In present age as well, accommodation is an option to Ms but the veto wielded by them is not. The broad consensus against an M veto is also holding up.
This friction is getting played up as intolerance in western media .
No wonder the largest ethnic group in the world today are called Han Chinese and not Qin Chinese. The Han made the right choice by adopting Confucianism instead of Legalism.
Though it also makes sense why the rulers continued to tax the peasants during famines. Unless they had a large treasury, how else would the state be funded during times of famine. The border still had to be guarded and soldiers still had to be paid. The lack of bonds meant that the state relied on a continuous supply of tax revenue to fund its expenses.