So question – particulary for Razib. Has anyone done any breakdown on West Siberian Hunter Gatherer, and its proportion in IVC populations and modern Indian cline populations?
It seems particularly interesting in the context of steppe proportions, and their shared ANE origins.
Ami is a good source to represent the SE Asian ancestry within Bengalis. I was using Kinh and then tried Ami on someone’s suggestion and it improved the fits. Very neat.
Naveen
1 year ago
Any thoughts on Julian Jaynes – the Origin of consciousness in the breakdown of the bicameral mind?
west world series was built on that. Consciousness as recent works seem to suggest is a form of anticipation, hallucination according to anil seth. I would begin there, IIT theory is also interesting, though its foundational basis is a kind of monism, make of it what you will.
The theory might have some merits but is false, because consciousness exists to some measure in animals themselves much before humans, i dont see any basis of that kind of theory.
i think we just need to work on gathering more evidence about consciousness (our current most advanced tech in this regard is general anestheisa) before speculating.
phyecho1
1 year ago
peter zeihan is scary. And yes, natural resources are important. world trade matters.
already is. Look at JNU. Look at the big journalists for Western media outlets. Indian Leftists are even bigger charlatans than Western ones. If anything, maybe there will be a tiny bit of improvement with less entrenched people coming in. They will still talk badly, but they won’t have as much basis motivated reasoning.
Its gonna get even more expensive as well given Trudeau is bringing in like a million immigrants every year. Literally half the kids from my native village in India are “studying” in Canada.
It used to be quite prestigious to live in Canada but nowadays pretty anyone from South Asia can go there. Same thing with the UK. My cousins in India say migrating to these countries is just like moving to Delhi or Bangalore nowadays. And now my extended family in Canada and UK are trying to move to the US lol. Don’t know the situation wrt to Australia and New Zealand. The byzantine US immigration policy makes it hard for South Asians to mass migrate here like CAN and UK. Having other sizeable ethnic/racial minorities makes it hard too. IIRC it was the Black and Hispanic caucus within the Democratic Party that blocked the recent attempt at H1b liberalization.
Half a million immigrants a year is basically an opportunity to make shit ton of money in Canada. People always find reason to complain and some of it relating to cultural change is valid. But economically it’s just a huge opportunity to get rich served on a platter.
PencilMan
1 year ago
Getting quite cold in Rangpur and in Bangladesh as a whole. Streets don’t seem to have a lot of the cycle”vans” that I saw years back when I visited. More paved and proper sidewalks, decent bits of organization but blaring horns are still there haha https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZASg5-Z7sA
Bhimrao
1 year ago
Over time I have become numb to any award, academic appointment, ‘civil society recognition’, weekly-columnist type BS. None of them matter anymore. It is about writing nice essays, having friends who can nominate you…
Same thing with American news media. NYT-WaPo-… its all a circle jerk.
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Sagarika Ghosh has gone nuts about ‘#Mishraji’, spewing all sorts of nonsense about UP-Bihar.
She was a Rhodes Scholar , but I don’t think it is that hard to get Rhodes, + connected Delhi circle of native informants + brown woman card + activism, journalism card,…
Everything about her and her Congressi husband’s subsequent career is mediocre.
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I find this attitude in a lot of Bengalis and increasingly Tamils online. This is all very educational for us North Indians. These guys genuinely think our people are uncouth and unclean. Tag team with Khalistanis to joke about ‘Bhaiyyas shitting in the open’. Hilarious!
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Hindi/Cow-heartland should wake up and take up this challenge of inter state competition. Rest of the Indians are not like us.
Beating W. Bengal should be immediate goal.
Advantage UP: hardworking people, lack of organized pull of communism/socialism, pro-industrialization electorate.
Advantage W. Bengal: COAST, deeper roots of science education, health and hygiene, no entrenched caste politics, less freeloaders.
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I do sympathize with UC grievances about caste based quotas. I do not care about Bamans or Thakurs crying ‘oppression’. They are being discriminated against by the state, but by and large they are not oppressed.
The funny bit is North Indian OBCs are the vanguard of BJP but Bamans get the flak.
she clearly is pro xtian if not one already. so is her husband. cryptos and half cryptos are the silent war that most dont notice. bjp instead of creating force multipliers through temples etc, still finds it useful to control it by govts. U just need to create a right critera . ultimately, rss/bjp and their stupidities will cost this H’s and this country the most, others are hopeless, sold out for greed.
bhimrao@
sincere wishes from me to UP/BH.
up is benefitting from noida. but eastern UP/BH is still constant stream of bad news.
Latest one being caste census in BH. This coupled with Wire pitching quotas in private sector tells us a precursor of ’24 campaign and what is in store if there is a surprise upset. Will wreck IN’s economic chances for the next 50 years or so. NiKu has been a big disappointment. Could have steered the JDU remnants in to a responsible opposition but alas he also seems to have hitched his bandwagon to tukde-tukde gang.
To me one of the turnaround signals would be one of the WITCH companies opening up offices anywhere between Lucknow and Patna.
out of billion people and now over 70 yrs , bihari people have the perfect track record of choosing the most nikamma leaders consistently and this is unprecedented in India. And on twitter i see many chauvinist educated biharis keep shitting on modi, bjp, rss and keep giving excuses of freight equalization etc endlessly.
At this point, the reason for lack of progress in bihar i believe is due to chauvinist impluses and having less humility than anywhere else. All one needs to do is learn from others, none of bihari leaders or bureaucrats have been able to do that for over 70 yrs. If it was an independent country, our view of it would be pretty straight forward. I am compassionate, but i believe in accountability and numbers are now clear. This is a pattern and the reason for it is chauvinism.
A simple question, how many investment meets did nitish arrange with top businesses etc in all his period in power?.
Nitish won because Lalu-raj was 5X worse. At least people don’t get kidnapped now.
One way I explain it is: UP has Delhi to look up to. Bihar has nothing, Biharis want to become prosperous by being like Bengalis of old. Let me explain, Bengalis had an advantage in college education, for two centuries up till 80s-90s, a lot of Bengalis used to become government servants as food-inspectors, teachers, bankers, insurance-agents,… simply by walking into interview rooms as the only ones with a degree. When you talk to these old Bengalis they are pretty dull, dumb but conceited people, and who did they project their dumbness and vanity on? Bihar and Jharkhand.
Biharis and large number of UP people think that getting a government job is still the way to go.
None of this takes away the agency of Biharis and UP folks. We are responsible for this mess.
educated nativist chauvinists are the problem. World is bigger place to look upto , look at TN, they are chauvinists, but have humility towards world . One simple measure of this is, how many business meetings do they do, how many other countries do the leaders travel to?. Modi went outside India even as CM. How many countries did nitish go to strike deals?.
Indian ministers of congress/ nehru-gandhi vintage like mai baap ki sarkar, they like to rule the roost, want to be head of village and want all people to bow in front of them, including all scientists, businesspeople etc.
Nitish is of the same type. Want everyone to do ji huzuri. More chauvinists means less interaction across business/world and as a result, no development since there is no investment and no good ideas on how to develop.
Pavan varma types used to tell sob tales of how places like bihar need to be helped for being poor etc and I used to buy that. I now see him and people like him as shameless scum who for decades hid this jaundiced reality by bsing in fine english/hindi ganga jamuni tehzeeb.
Just checked google for pics of ratan tata and nitish kumar, zero pics. modi and ratan tata has many pics.
A cm, who has not taken lessons from the best Industrialist in the country. what arrogant pric.
“educated nativist chauvinists are the problem. World is bigger place to look upto , look at TN, they are chauvinists, but have humility towards world . One simple measure of this is, how many business meetings do they do, how many other countries do the leaders travel to?”
This should be one of the things to improve. The situation (law-order, health, education, in that order) and day to day politics (caste) is so tangled that people tend to lose the bigger picture.
Indians (in and around India) are a talkative people. Don’t take anything they say seriously.
Biharis grabbing the central government jobs is maybe the reason the Bengali ghose is upset 😊. UP/BH folks are following their Bengali brethren to western universities as well. I see lots of mishras, jhas and prasads spouting woke to climb up the greasy pole.
Re investor meets, I believe BH is the only one apart from NE. Ffs even Channi and Mann at least pretended to care about investment.
At the aggregate level politicians do respond to what their voters care about. This piece of the puzzle seems to be missing.
Racelearner
1 year ago
Was recently at a Tex-Mex restaurant in the DMV area, and was absolutely stunned to see the doppelgängers of South Asians from the East, West and North among non-White Latinos. Saw a huge family of Gujarati origin there, clearly speaking in their mother tongue, and were it not for their accent/language I would never have guessed them as South Asian. Looked fully like Indigenous and Mestizo Latinos and blended in with the non White Latino crowd. They were probably around 50% West Eurasian and 50% AASI or more. Which is a direct parallel to the average Mexican who is around 50-55% West Eurasian, 45-50% Asian and thus both look like the same race and ethnic group.
The servers there kept speaking to them in Spanish and acted hugely surprised when they responded in English. OTOH, the few Caucasians there (including Central South Asians like myself) were all spoken to in English and stood out like sore thumbs. The racial differences between South Asians are gigantic and the two ends of the South Asian PCA cline correspond to a difference almost as large as Nigerians and Coptic Christians from Egypt. The few endogamous tribes in South Asia and NW India that are fully Caucasian (Jaats, Kambojas, Khatris etc) will never be mistaken for non White/Latin and will always be considered a Caucasian of some origin.
There is a vast difference in phenotype once you reach the 10-15% AASI threshold as is found among Jaats and Rors and other NW South Asians. Not only do Northerners and Westerners with more AASI look Latin, the ones in the South and Central regions look conspicuously South Asian due to a completely different admixture strain of AASI and other unique elements not found in the North.
Truly incredible how there are so many parallels between South Asia and Latin America. Both in race, class and culture. The income disparities and corruption are also similar in both regions. Both regions have a history of being conquered by West Eurasians and still suffer from its ramifications today.
You are such a wildly unhinged individual hahahahahah “harnizo”
Man, Indians really do hate looking like Indians, the self-hate is spectacular. They will do anything and everything and say they look like this or that before admitting they look like what they are.
Take a bow, Racelearner. You really are one hell of a speciment
A foolish comment from an even more foolish South Asian (possibly Afghan, I know how much they like picking on their fellow South-Central Asian brethren)
Pray tell me, what exactly does an Indian look like? And then tell me what it means to say that “Indians hate looking Indian” — please expound upon this brilliant statement my friend, because I am at a loss to understand what you mean by that.
It’s like saying Americans hate looking American. Or Latin Americans hate looking Latin American. In other words it makes no sense whatsoever.
You sir, are a complete lunatic.
Bhimrao
1 year ago
Donors offer over $9B for Pakistan after devastating floods
I think after haay-tauba on War on Terrorism, this is the new Pakistani shtic… these same people were trying to stand as ‘equals’ to the west and say no to… shame.
‘Are Sinhalese people closer genetically to Tamils’
This is how civil war are started, so careful where u going with this 😛
sbarrkum
1 year ago
Quite a bit drunk, so some music.
I pretty much listen music only when drinking.||
Growing up as a third gen very westernized kid I loved (and still do) much of modern western music, like Rock. Not real western music as in Bach. But is modern music of the west, really of the west.
You hear of some saying Africa has no culture. But then the radio keeps blaring the beats of African music. Of course made popular by the Americans. No complaints here. a typical Stockholm Syndrome chap.
Chango is the Orisha, a deity in Yoruba religion
Of course most self centered people of each country think their history is most important. (I do too).
Why the CIA attempted a ‘Maidan uprising’ in Brazil
The failed coup in Brazil is the latest CIA stunt, just as the country is forging stronger ties with the east.
A former US intelligence official has confirmed that the shambolic Maidan remix staged in Brasilia on 8 January was a CIA operation, and linked it to the recent attempts at color revolution in Iran.
On Sunday, alleged supporters of former right-wing President Jair Bolsonaro stormed Brazil’s Congress, Supreme Court, and presidential palace, bypassing flimsy security barricades, climbing on roofs, smashing windows, destroying public property including precious paintings, while calling for a military coup as part of a regime change scheme targeting elected President Luis Inacio “Lula” da Silva.
According to the US source, the reason for staging the operation – which bears visible signs of hasty planning – now, is that Brazil is set to reassert itself in global geopolitics alongside fellow BRICS states Russia, India, and China.
A former US intelligence official has confirmed that the shambolic Maidan remix staged in Brasilia on 8 January was a CIA operation, and linked it to the recent attempts at color revolution in Iran.
On Sunday, alleged supporters of former right-wing President Jair Bolsonaro stormed Brazil’s Congress, Supreme Court, and presidential palace, bypassing flimsy security barricades, climbing on roofs, smashing windows, destroying public property including precious paintings, while calling for a military coup as part of a regime change scheme targeting elected President Luis Inacio “Lula” da Silva.
According to the US source, the reason for staging the operation – which bears visible signs of hasty planning – now, is that Brazil is set to reassert itself in global geopolitics alongside fellow BRICS states Russia, India, and China.
A former US intelligence official has confirmed that the shambolic Maidan remix staged in Brasilia on 8 January was a CIA operation, and linked it to the recent attempts at color revolution in Iran.
On Sunday, alleged supporters of former right-wing President Jair Bolsonaro stormed Brazil’s Congress, Supreme Court, and presidential palace, bypassing flimsy security barricades, climbing on roofs, smashing windows, destroying public property including precious paintings, while calling for a military coup as part of a regime change scheme targeting elected President Luis Inacio “Lula” da Silva.
According to the US source, the reason for staging the operation – which bears visible signs of hasty planning – now, is that Brazil is set to reassert itself in global geopolitics alongside fellow BRICS states Russia, India, and China.
is that Brazil is set to reassert itself in global geopolitics alongside fellow BRICS states Russia, India, and China.
Yes, within the last year or two regime change attempts to those leaning towards Russia and China.
The first was the 2014 Maidan revolution in Ukraine, a la “Fuck the EU” Victoria Nuland. That got the Clown (literally and figuratively) Zelensky installed.
Then just after Nulands visit to South Asia
a) Russia and China leaning Imran Khan got ousted.
b) In SL there were the Aragalaya Protests and storming of Parliament. The Rajapakses President and PM resigned. By a constitutional Parliament vote right of center Ranil Wickremasinghe became President. He did not even win his seat in 2020 Parliament elections.
There were other shenanigans, like rating agency down grades. Prevents or makes it very expensive to raise money in International Money Market. Then one has to beg from IMF and they will get their pound of flesh. Basically sell our assets to the west, also called privatization.
We did better, SL stopped paying its International Debts. 50% owed to Hedge Funds like Black Rock, IMF and ADB about 30%. 9% to China and they dont care as they have a strategic asset, the Hambanthota port.
So another own goal by the west, much like sanctions destroying EU and Germany in particular, economies.
Regards not being able to raise dollars by borrowing, I am glad.
a) We need to be at least partially self sufficient. Not live it up on imported goodies. Even wheat flour and lentils* used by rural poor are imported. Plenty of substitutes and we had that in the 70’s under Mrs Bandaranaike.
b) Our foreign ME remittances are back to 30% or more, and not being used to service debt. (Tourism still low)
c) Regards fossil fuels, Russia, India and China are giving it to us on credit and steep discounts. China just gave (as in free) diesel for agricultural use.
I did not see this before, but 4 Indian actresses, either married or have/had a white bf. what is happening?. Was this a cultural shift that happened that I did not notice?.zinta,chopra,saran, d’souza. ???.
All within a period of 10 yrs.
phyecho1
1 year ago
radhika apte as well. not a single black dude or middle eastern dude or asian dude or anything else. funny.
i just checked and the numbers are much more than that, i just saw few actors and thought, am i seeing a pattern, worse, some of these are not rich either. I think its clear, all those fair looks that go into making Indian actress lead them to look for same.
The mindset i changed as a 12 yrs old, i find it hard to believe most human beings like their biases and wont see to correct their thinking.
‘For those in Tamilnadu of Tamil origin, which identity would you choose as your primary one if you had to choose one or the other below?
Indian
Tamil’
I dont respect humanities, arts/ cinema etc, they have highest % of lunatics.
Ugra
1 year ago
Strong sentiments in Kannada Twitter against use of Hindi in public spaces. More and more 90s kids joining in and not just Vatal Nagaraj types.
At least 2-3 lateral factors in play – the Maharashtra intransigence in the border districts, cultural topics (Kannada vs Sanskrit) that get out of hand and…..more consistently we see a lot of national left wing media houses aligning behind Hindi speakers.
The last factor is roiling the local leftist scene as it prevents consolidation of its traditional vote blocs.
The issue will surely gather momentum into a hardball that Bommai will find it tough to tackle.
In time Kannada chauvinists will learn that the only viable road is full blown cultural revanchism (neither right-wing or left-wing) can provide a salve.
this is very fringe issue. normal kannadiga is not as agitated as a tamil on this issue. at time parties like jds are raising this issue and not getting much traction. there is bit of an irritation of the ‘new’ hindiwallas not learning kannada, an this is in bangalore only.
half the sate was under maratha rule or under the nizam of hyderbad and are aware ofthe hindi/persian words. generally not an issue.
Bhumiputra
1 year ago
On the language Vs Indian question, I suspect the question was deliberately framed that way. I suspect the results would be similar in all southern states, maybe even MH. However the results would flip if the question were framed as “do you agree that “X” language/culture is part of broader Indian civilization/culture?”.
Gangetic states will not see the difference because they don’t have to give up on their language as implied in the og question.
I doubt that answers would have flipped even for ‘“do you agree that “X” language/culture is part of broader Indian civilization/culture?”. Especially for this question.
We all know which ethnicities/languages we are talking about here. No one goes around saying it to Marathi or Telugu folks, even though they are not Hindi speaking folks, so ur assertion on Gangetic folks is wrong.
The question is specific to none/less-Hindu ethnicities.
30% of Gangetic folks will say they are Muslim first and only Ummah matters. Another 25% (Yadav’s/OBCs) will be ok with this and even support it.
BIMARU kangers have the most insidious political-cultural problem at home for several centuries. And they will go on fact finding missions to other regions to make themselves feel better!
Classic! Tells everything how a band of sheepstealers could reduce this region to servitude.
The impotence of Gangetic folks in building any sort of cultural project makes them fearful of the ones that do.
The only identity having valence in the Gangetic regions is caste. Which is why you have rapproachments like the Muslim – Yadav symbiosis rather than any sort of linguistic or ideological camps.
There is a reason why Shinde is the cm and not fadnavis. There was a kerfuffle on RRR twtr where Hindi speakers objected to Jagan and Rajamouli championing telugu cinema and pride.
HJ
1 year ago
Not sure why anyone is suprised? The idea of an Indian civilization might have existed for millenia but a strong state to enforce that notion has been a very rare feature in Indian history. The current one is only two generations old. So yeah, not everyone is going to put their broader identity(civilization, nation-state whatever) above their local/regional one. And this phenomenon is not even unique to India. You ask a Quebecois or a Welshman, if they prioritize their regional identity over national ones and they would say yes. And yet their respective nation-states survive. And those countries even have active separatist movements involved in the political process unlike in South India. Trying too hard to impose national identity over regional ones will only backfire.
‘So yeah, not everyone is going to put their broader identity(civilization, nation-state whatever) above their local/regional one.’
Well that’s true. But is there a correlation b/w folks from certain ethnicities putting their regional identities above their broader civilizational identities. While other ethnicities don’t.
‘RRR isn’t buzzing because innocent White Americans cannot get the anti-Native narrative and far-right ideas in the film, but because Hindu-chauvinist art has for long been a place where White audiences’ prejudices can comfortably hide in plain sight.
RRR does not differ much from Lagaan and its Oscar entry. White Mensahib innocence, casteist paternalism, majoritarian nationalism passing as anticolonial radicality…’
Superficially, he’s not wrong that white right-wing radicals have long been attracted to Hindutva or even Hinduism in general in a way they haven’t been to e.g. Islam. But I think forcing that narrative into RRR is silly. The reason why he does that is because he’s a white leftist so he feels he can’t talk on behalf of browns, so he tries to find a “white angle”. All part of intersectionality politics.
I suspect that most of the hostility towards RRR will come from woke brown types living in the diaspora. Indeed, this is already happening.
For India, any cultural push into the West will most likely face this stumbling bloc, namely that many “cultural brown critics” absolutely detest its government and will throw Indian films down the gutter if they have to in order to score political points. This is the problem when the right-wing cedes cultural space in the diaspora to activist woke types.
You see the same problem in East Asian cicles. They didn’t know how to react when most of the interracial violence in cities like NYC came from blacks, since all their narratives were based on evil Trump supporters rampaging trying to stage a fascist coup or whatever. The main difference between East Asians and South Asians is that the latter is far more heterogenous, which means there’s plenty of space reserved for “intra-group oppression” narratives. Indeed, we already see this with the Cisco case hyping and Brown University now adding caste to its official list of discriminatory practices. Expect these battles to transcend into the cultural realm, also.
Definitely not us 😜. Telugu actors are being adored all over Cow-belt. Allu Arjun, Prabhas, Ram Charan are bonafide superstars in even village barber shops. They have surpassed Rajnikant and Chinranjeevi. Yash and Jr. NTR need a few more Hindi hits.
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I think the first movie that ushered this change was Chattrapathi in 2005. It was qualitatively different from ‘Indra the tiger’ type poop Telugu cinema used to make.
Tamil cinema had a head start in creativity but Telugu cinema finally won and ate the cake.
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I do buy the meta argument that higher GDP/capita leads to better cinema. Bengal did well in cinema before it went broke, Mumbai dominated for decades, Chennai flexed but…, Now it is Hyderabad and Bangalore’s turn.
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Ugra
1 year ago
“Well the Gangetic folks did create a culture. Indian/Hindu culture.”
The sheepstealers slapped the Gangetic kangers so hard they have now started thinking like them. UP is Mecca, Rgveda.pdf was written in their uncle’s house and Ganga is Zamzam.
Tamilnadu is 88% Hindu while UP is 80% (2011 census). Tamilnadu did not have religious trauma in the past, therefore no need for overt religious signalling. The predominant political culture creates and processes newer forms of mobilization (linguistic, socialistic, middle-caste hegemonies, cinematic idolization etc).
UP has a lot of visible and invisible damage to religiosity. Plus significant counter-mobilization within the Hindu communities (Yadavs/OBCs allying with Muslims against the UCs). There is just enough political energy for survival. None for cultural projects on non-religious lines.
All of this is the root of Saurav’s “less Hindu” rant. Basically a “shirk” type worldview where he processes the incomprehensible political cultures of other Indian regions into the binary of his own region’s faultline.
ugra, whom do you speak for?. Not telugu or kannada or maharastra or malyalam. For all talk of south/north, kerala on demographic issue is much worse. And they didnt face mughals in such a sustained way.
And there is nothing TN people possessed socially or technologically that could have helped repel the invaders. Their only luck is geography and that others on the north fought and resisted. But are too dumb and arrogant not to respect the sacrifices made.
Tamil chauvinism irks all other south Indians as well, be it telugus, kannadas or malyalis as well. The only ones who fought are marathas and sikhs, the rest were not good enough. Thats the reality. Whether it be martial warfare or even Independence movement.
There was very little contribution from south in determining its own future, its future, was gifted by those who fought for Independence and those who fought invasions. The reality is this that south essentially wasted away over past 4 to 5 centuries and achieved nothing of significance.
One can understand lack of development in north, but what of south?. Why did they so easily fall to british, why is it that they achieved nothing of worth culturally or technologically. Because they were too dumb and arrogant to not care. Intelligence is to learn from others pain.
In the world of ugra, there is no merit in valuing nelson mandela or martin luther king jr, there is no merit in opposing racism either because that is not tamil history. And what is not in tamil history is useless. And any one who were conquered were weak and useless anyway. But that is a typical tamil mind , brainwashed and take pride in their own brainwashing. After all, why work to learn from others when it is easy to arrogate one’s own luck as one’s superiority.
An average person learns from own mistakes,intelligent people learn from others as well. I hope for intelligence, its not there right now.
The consistent thing about ugra is that he is a chauvinist linguistically and also caste, religion is an after thought. The way to deal with them is not to feed them and self reinforce chauvinism on all sides.
S Qureishi
1 year ago
A common language makes a common nation. The concept of a nation state was conceptualized in Europe and was basically based on a strong linguistic identity, where language literally is the basis of most countries. When applying and imposing this idea of a sovereign unitary modern nation state on other non-European regions with diverse sets of linguistic traditions contained within those geographical boundaries, it has only been a cause of strife and division.
The British created Indian nationalism indirectly by promoting the use of the mass language ‘Hindustani’ in regions where other local rural languages were commonly spoken. Hindi has been replacing and absorbing these local languages and the regions that adopted it are the regions that are most nationalistic (according to Saurav)
However Hindi faces resistance in areas where the British did not make Hindustani the official language (Bengal, Madras, Bombay Province, Sindh) and these areas are more insular, and seem have less time for the ‘nation’.
Interestingly Pew did a survey in Pakistan about ethnic vs national identification few years ago, and it seems to agree with my theory.. the survey was done in urban areas (where Urdu is primary language) so one should take it with a grain of salt, but Sindh being an outlier in Pakistan aligns with the fact that Hindustani was not made the official language here.
Qureshi,
There is the european concept of nation formalized at treaty of westphalia 1848. Worth noting how european nations are themselves re-integrating in to EU.
Anyway, we Bharatiyas have our own native traditions of a civilization. It is messy to get it working but there is enough critical mass to keep it going. Tbf none of our subcontinental neighbors who have gone the route of ethno linguistic state have come out as shining sustainable examples. From what I can gather by your earlier arguments — economic growth does not matter as long Ms out breed Hs in the subcontinent, Hs can build the cake, Ms will have it. Your scenario has a non-zero chance of success but that is not an argument for IN to desist from doing it the right and hard way.
Ms will outbreed Hs but in India that might take a couple of centuries and who knows what happens till then? At this point, bigger problem in India is that NIs will outbreed SIs and take the cake. And this seems to concern many SIs.
Anyway I’m just commenting that language is the basis for culture and most of divisions present. It is a powerful tool that can unite as well as divide.
People tend to over look it and unduly blame religion or race/ethnicity.
NIs have always been more numerous than SIs. The coming delimitation exercise in 2026 will be contentious and there will be many parties queering the pitch but I am sure a workable solution will be worked out. As for fiscal transfers, there is in fact wider acceptance of toilet, running water and home construction programs. The overwhelming portion of beneficiaries are NIs. The only sticking points are language/sub-cultures. Again I believe these are easily solvable.
I take your point about language being an important part but my point is that it is not sufficient. European concept of a nation consisting of a single language worked well when small nations like Portugal and Belgium had huge resources rich colonies in Asia and Africa. The moment the age of colonies came to an end in the aftermath of WW 2, the EU was born.
This is the only card Pakistanis (think they) have. Just like they use to chant Nuclear-Nuclear-Nuclear not that long ago.
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Trad twitter has the most interesting ideas and wittiest memes. Some include:
1) Scathing criticism of BJP. Hilarious takedowns of Modi.
2) Advocating active and incessant destabilization of Pakistan.
3) Stats on OBC-OBC, OBC-Dalit, violence.
4) Shitting on Hindutva ‘sluts’ like that big-tit tarot lady and that onlyfan girl Kamya that Vineet from Indic Explorer (BP) interviewed.
5) Shitting on pro Hindutva foreigners.
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Trads can shout all they want but they can’t do anything without BJP.
Despite the occasional V.P. Singh amongst them, NI Thakur trads might pull something big off if Yogi wins. They have muscle, cohesion and genuine will to dominate. I consider Thakurs are already 10X what Khalistanis can ever hope to be. The most bakchod amongst trads are urban NI Bamans. The problem with non land owning NI Bamans i.e. Sharma-Vajpayee-Tiwari types is that they can’t pull the trigger. Their need to sound a certain way is strong. IMO Bengalis are B/C-grade NI Bamans, that is why they are so irritating and conceited.
I do think Narasimha Rao was the best PM of India. If Tamils were not so universally disliked maybe even Kamaraj would have made a good PM.
“Well that’s true. But is there a correlation b/w folks from certain ethnicities putting their regional identities above their broader civilizational identities. While other ethnicities don’t.
I think there is.”
This is true. In all countries that are a union of different ethnic and religious groups, one group is always more invested in the national project than others. This group will generally suppress its own nationalism in favor of a broader civic nationalism. In the UK, its the English, in Canada, its the Anglophones, in the US, its the White Protestants and so on. Failed examples, include Germans in Austria-Hungary and Serbs in Yugoslavia.
In India’s case, there is no doubt that the “core” group is Hindi speaking North Indian Hindus. But they will just have to take one for the team and be ok with chauvinism from other ethnic and religious groups while not displaying their own chauvinism or God forbid impose it on other groups. It sucks for them and might even be unfair but North Indian Hindus can take comfort in that they are not the only ones who have to deal with this. As said before, English in the UK, Anglophones in Canada and White Protestants in the US have to deal with the same thing. Otherwise the national project will fail as the Austrian Germans and Yugoslav Serbs found out the hard way.
As long as there are no violent separatist groups, Tamil nationalism should be able to coexist with the Indian state. Of course, if such groups emerge, they should be cracked down. Most people will be ok with that. The rising middle class values security and stability.
Peaceful and democratic political movements that espouse nationalism can be co-opted into the political process at state and national levels. There will be grumbles but the Indian state will be fine. Harsh crackdowns on peaceful political parties on the other hand by the national government will alienate the populace and cause serious issues. India being such a geographically and demographically large country means that Indian nationalism will never be as uniformly widespread as in a small homogeneous country.
But on the whole, the Indian state has done ridiculously well. As I said before, it doesn’t have a long history so its remarkable, how little separatism actually exists in India given the stark linguistic differences between the various states.
HJ,
Thank you and my point exactly. On the contrary TN has been providing economic surplus alongwith GJ, MH, TL and KA. My quibble then is your using rhetorical excesses of Tamil sub-nationalism as an excuse to characterize NIs as core group, while condoning “more hindu” rhetoric of NIs. By this rhetorical sleight of hand, you not only downgraded Tamils but other non-Tamil and non-hindi speakers to 2nd class status.
sbarrkum
1 year ago
According to NakedCapitalism links on Jan 12, this was a must read. I agree. Would add the same (as in collapse) for the US, 1.2 million deaths deaths and not an issue.
——-
Watching Britain turn into what it is now — the first rich European country to become a failed state, which in itself is mind-boggling — is to witness something historic.
Britain’s different. It had…everything. I mean that. It had everything that a modern society could wish for, and then some. It used to be the envy of the world. Until a decade ago — just ten years — the NHS was the world’s best healthcare system.
Right about now, Britain’s own finer minds have estimated that there have been 25,000 excess deaths because…the NHS has collapsed.
Some of his points are valid, most of it is overblown but his writing is definitely cringe.
But all of his initial points regarding health and economy are just a cover for his real gripe, which he drops at the end. That Britain is xenophobic. I guess taking in hundreds of thousands of immigrants from all over the world is not enough for Mr Haque. Standard for someone like him. His other posts are similarly targeted at Western right wing. You used to see a lot of these takes 5-10 years ago when the War on Terror was still relevant but its getting rarer nowadays.
There was a similar article on the NHS by Danny Dorling, a British social geographer and is the Halford Mackinder Professor of Geography of the School of Geography and the Environment of the University of Oxford.
A&E (Accident and Emergency) delays are ‘killing up to 500 people a week’”.
This figure – 5% above the normal number of people who die each week, though that baseline is also rising – can surely be traced back to the act, which ushered in a greater wave of privatisation than ever before. It compelled NHS management to behave as if they were in the private sector, competing to win business, and led to an increase in the proportion of contracts won and the use of contracts overall.
By 2019, life expectancy for women had fallen in almost a fifth of all neighbourhoods and in over a tenth for men. Poorer people, both old and young, in poorer areas suffered most, with infant mortality among babies born to the poorest parents rising. Later there was a rise in deaths of women who were pregnant.
Again, the damage was not so much through the extent of covert privatisation, but through the wider ethos that had been promoted. Take the USA: most of the enormous amount of money spent on healthcare there has little impact on improving health, because the ethos is wrong.
‘But they will just have to take one for the team and be ok with chauvinism from other ethnic and religious groups while not displaying their own chauvinism or God forbid impose it on other groups. ‘
Well what have been N-Indians being doing apart from ‘taking one for the team’ all these years?
My argument is NI patience is wearing thin. The other Indians have to step up now. We are done dealing with the shit and mollycoddling other Indians. Now we do what we want. And if that irks other Indians, or make them feel ‘2nd class citizen’ or whatever, then so be it.
@Saurav TN has the most temples in all of India, by saying “Tamils are not Hindu”, the only thing you’re taking away from us is a trivial Persian exonym. UNESCO won’t deem the Chola Temples unworthy if its not called Hindu.
BJPites tend to throw a tantrum and call Tamils Anti-Hindu, because we don’t accept their Islam related Historical Grievances. Look, you guys can either learn from the past and bounce back like the japs after WW2 Or you can wallow&stew in this “Hindu Victimhood Identity” like the BLM folks. Most Indians are over colonialism, we’ve made UK our trade partners and English the official language of India. Does this mean that we’ve forgotten the atrocities? No, but we also don’t hold onto it and use the resentment as the basis for our National Identity.
Its heartening to see that its not just the less-Hindu ethnicities of the subcontinent who are facing an identity crisis
Bruh, you folks don’t even see yourselves as an ethnicity, you yourself are only obsessed with gatekeeping the Hindu Identity lol Adding to what @HJ said, Cowbelt has always acted as the laboratory for “National Projects”, whether it be Nehru’s Ganga-Jamuni-Tehzeeb or Savarkar’s Hindutva. Aside from Hindutva, i can’t think of a common historical narrative for Cowbelt in the same way Sangam Era is for Tamils. Marwari&Awadi speakers don’t see each others as any closer than say, any other Hindi speaking Indian.
well seriously yes,
one more bjp term in centre and dmk out of power in centre will be disastrous for them.
karunanidhi would have found a way to worm back into modi’s good books.
our wig raja is not that savvy and the fringe ‘tamil nationalists’ have have taken power.
Brown@
You are talking about loss of Tamil bargaining chip due to single party government in Delhi. Coalition government relying on Tamil and/or telugu parties was true only from 89-2014. Language chauvinism was present even earlier as well when Congress dominated center. Even then TN development trajectory has been better right from the beginning. I don’t see how Tamils are blocking NIs. Is the assumption that they consistently vote for regional Tamil parties reason enough to brand them separatists?
Seriously this mentality is not good for anyone. I am glad the modi/bjp don’t subscribe to this mentality.
In fact Tamil opinion has been generally appreciative of modi government line in the rus-ukr war. It was very satisfying to read the dejection of nyt opinion columnist who had to quote a Chennai businessman who approved the government handling of the situation.
sbarrkum
1 year ago
Carnival a la Sri Lanka
This is a perahera a “Buddhist Procession” in the Deep South.
What is to be noted
a) The horn sections of the different groups.
I mean each group has its own horn section
b) You can spot the different groups by the designs on the sarongs
c) Whats with the deep south Sinhalese, they love the horns and drums.
The endless needless chauvinism we see here is a sign of low brain power. Try better guys. If something is wrong, point it out. i point to problem with bihar,but dont taunt or make snide remarks, have constructive criticism.
brown
1 year ago
To Bhumiputra,
1. The foundation for tamilnadu’s development was laid by British and subsequent Congress govt. Once the Dravidian became ruling class the development is patchy.
2. Intellectually Tamil has stagnated. Kannada 6 jnanapeeta Awards Vs. 2 for Tamil.
3. The Dravidian speak in double endrand as far as separatisim goes. This will be called out by others sooner than later. This time has come.
4. The outward movement of Tamils to other states has reduced. This has made them very inward looking.
1. tamilians will say their tank irrigation system predated british. not my area of expertise. TN has dravidian governments since 69 and has maintained the lead while improving HDI.
2. None of our (kannadiga’s) business and good for us. I trust tamilians to realize that and focus on producing cultural output. afaik they have not stopped Hindi or any other language speakers to produce good literature or music.
3. not sure what specific double standards you have in mind. The fact is that in 62 war, even DMK gave up its nominally separatist demand. Even now, public opinion is broadly supportive of IN’s foreign policy line in the RUS-UKR war. Beyond that they are aggressive/touchy with their language. But that does not justify grouping them with Punjabi separatism. We kannadigas already have water sharing and other issues with TN. I for one don’t want to import the Punjabi-Poorbiya dynamic down south and make things worse.
4. Seriously, a people are being dinged for being happy and content in their own home state?
The only ppl who have a genuine gripe with periyar politics are TamBrahms.
TN does “seem” to have issues with influence of church esp with DMK gov. But that applies to AP as well. That partly explains traction that bjp/annamalai and admk are getting. The final outcome is not known. The best Hindus/Dharmics in other states can do is not go around calling Tamils lesser Hindus.
I don’t think you understand the true purpose of CAA. It’s all about disenfranchising illegal muslim immigrants from PAK/BD, who will never vote for BJP. And keep them as bargaining chips for any future negotiations. SL, Tibet would have been included if there is a chance of Muslims from these places immigrating to India.
They don’t give af about Hindus from the neighborhood. It’s a minuscule number to make a difference to the BJP votebank. Actually, minorities from PAK/BD don’t need CAA at all – current rules already allow them to legally immigrate and naturalize in India. But nobody cares about them – proof is the Pak Hindus refugees settled near Delhi for decades – they don’t even have electricity, forget about citizenship. India is not Israel.
SL Hindus who want to be here (Civil war refugees) and should be here (Hill tamils) are already here. SL Tamils have better places to go like Canada, UK, Norway etc.
Bro, my folks brought the CAA. Rest assured i understand it totally. Though i oppose it fully, but not for the reasons widely touted about.
What you are talking about ‘disenfranchising illegal muslim immigrants’ is NRC and not CAA. But you are right in one thing , there are bargaining chips, just that it not the muslims, but the Hindus (PB, Sindhi and Bengali) of these other countries. Vote for citizenship. Simple.
Since the Bengali Hindus didn’t vote the BJP, there is no CAA for them. What i want to point out that the BJP and the larger Hindutva movement does not even consider Tamil Hindus in their consideration within the ambit of such useless bill. That shows them their position.
1. Tank irrigation in TN (and large parts of Southern Kerala) is a thousand years old, dates to the Late Chola period, and continuously improved during Nayak, Maratha, British eras. In the Cauvery delta you can find water rights that go back centuries.
2. Tamil literature is healthier than ever – footfalls on book fairs even in second rung towns are testament to this. There was a mass daily reading movement during the COVID lockdown period. I think you may not have heard about Venmurasu – a Mahabharatha novelization – longest novel in the world, written in the last decade.
IMHO JP awards are not a great yardstick for vitality. Why do I say that? Politics. You expect SL Bhyrappa to ever get JP award? I say politics because one of the two JP recipients for Tamil (Akilan) doesn’t deserve it. And two others who deserve it and more (Ashokamitran and Ki Rajanarayanan) were never considered at all – they both are certainly better than someone like Kambara.
Tamil performing arts are not doing great (except Bharatanatyam), when compared to say Kathakali or Yakshagana.
3. I just don’t get this TN separatism talk at all. Sounds like non-Tamil people make a huge hue and cry about TN separatism more than TN people. Let me make it clear – there is zero ground level support for separatism, whatever little there was was gone after Rajiv/1991. Q branch and other state intelligence agencies have done a great job in eliminating any fringe separatist elements – be it Maoists, Linguistic separatists or radical islamists. Sabre rattling by DMK is just that – they will shut up as soon as they make a deal with BJP and become a part of the ruling dispensation in the centre.
No one gives a damn about TN separatism or exceptionalism. Nor will the DMK be a part of the centre, or Modi allow it. There will be cold peace b/w them.
What you see is the rise of N-Indian supremacism who have for long resisted throwing their weight around. Which has irked the other ethnic/language supremacists who thought they had the only right to play that card. The BJP leads the former, while the opposition/Congress leads the latter.
Ugra
1 year ago
Both Karuna and MGR/Jaya laid down the industrial oriented pipeline of TN as we see it today. Congress under Rajaji, Kamaraj got basics right.
Most UPwallahs (subalterns, OBCs) and other North groups have a grudging admiration of TN Dravidianism.
It is a middle caste hegemonic force that has controlled both UCs and Dalit resurgence from spinning out of control. Communists don’t get too much traction and Congress remains a trained lapdog.
Everywhere else, especially in the Gangetic Belt – Yadav’s and subalterns are out of control, communists destroyed Kolkata (a premier Asian hub) and most politicos are anti-industry. Clusterfuck after clusterfuck.
Tamilnadu gets approximately 45000 crores of internal investment annually from the North Indian hinterland. People know a safe haven when they see one.
The maritime industriousness of the last millennia is unchanged in TN. Modernity has a different set of challenges – subaltern resurgence, eurocentric dogmas (communism, socialism) make governance very tough.
It is not easy to become one of the Top 4 of India (Maha, Guj, Kar) without bipartisan commitment to industry and urbanisation. The Dravidian plank is a concordat – every social group knows what they are getting out of it.
I also consider it a great Providence that the three former Leaders of TN – Kamaraj, Karuna and MGR did not complete middle school or just high school. They were blessed with a earthy no-nonsense intelligence that allowed for a great foresight.
When I look at the Gangetic leaders of the same period, Lohia went to Germany, JP went to Wisconsin and Jyoti Basu went to London for their studies!!
The middle caste revolution was truly one of applied praxis rather than the upper caste mode of endless knowledge acquisition.
#ugra,
it is a middle caste hegemonic force that has controlled both UCs and Dalit resurgence from spinning out of control.
yes, this is dravidianism.
for some reason, this has not taken deep roots in karnataka, as probably one of the middle castes- Lingayats have an identity problem. are they shudras? or protestant brahmins led mid caste groups?
in kerala since the middle castes- ezvas and nairs control the hindu narrative.
brown@
Afaik the aradhyas claim to be “Protestant” Brahmins. The other jangamas don’t. One reason might be lingayats at least historically didn’t care much about getting higher ritual status from Brahmins. All the milestone rituals were conducted by jangamas + dasa aoha (community dining) meant a fairly cohesive but largely insular community. This was true of north KA. But these days things are changing as more lingayats are moving to urban areas.
Regardless the friction and competition between Bs and farming castes is endemic throughout IN, both north and south. In KL, I believe the caste conflict shows up as party conflict between communist ezhavas and rss/nairs. Ofc this is complicated by presence of large percentage of Ms and Cs.
sbarrkum
1 year ago
Death Squads killing civilians=War Crimes
All the countries that participated in the Afgan War would be accessories. i.e. UK, Canada, Australia, NZ etc
Nothing is going to happen,no one will be held accountable*. As they say in Sri Lanka, “The goods are of the Chief, and the Laws are of the Chied”. Baduth Hamu ge,nithyath hamu ge.
*The US, UK and Canada will meanwhile accuse small countries of war crimes and act as judge and jury.
Excerpts
At least 452 civilians were killed in 107 raids. This number is almost certainly an undercount.
The Afghan soldiers weren’t alone on the raids; U.S. special operations forces soldiers working with the C.I.A. often joined them.
A troubling number of raids appear to have relied on faulty intelligence by the C.I.A
Military planners baked potential “collateral damage” into the pre-raid calculus — how many women/children/noncombatants were at risk if the raid went awry,
South Indian Brahmin groups seem to have a higher chance of having light eyes than other groups…
I’m not even one so I’m not one to be biased btw just an observation because even random people seem to have it and I don’t go looking for the light eyed types either.
Its heartening to see that its not just the less-Hindu ethnicities of the subcontinent who are facing an identity crisis. There are now less-muslim ethnicities who are trying to link themselves with Arabia. 😂😂😂
> Bro, my folks brought the CAA. Rest assured i understand it totally. Though i oppose it fully, but not for the reasons widely touted about. What you are talking about ‘disenfranchising illegal muslim immigrants’ is NRC and not CAA.
Since your folks brought the CAA, you should know about the CAA-NRC-NPR combo. Chronology Samajye. Listen to Amit Shah.
> What i want to point out that the BJP and the larger Hindutva movement does not even consider Tamil Hindus in their consideration within the ambit of such useless bill. That shows them their position.
Who brings a legislation to slyly slight a specific demographic – this is politics, not a middle school playground. Even if BJP really wants to slight Tamil Hindus they would come out and say so, the way they do when their legislation is specifically targeting Muslims (see Amit Shah Chronology, Yogi 80/20). And what does BJP gain by slighting Tamils – will BJP vote share in UP increase just because BJP showed the uppity Tamils their place.
I will take your Tamil slight theory seriously if SL Tamil Hindus were the only group excluded. But Bhutan, Tibet and Myanmar are also excluded – Hindus in Bhutan are actually a persecuted group. Same with Tibetan Buddhists. So this is not some Dharmic minority saviour act, it’s just a no-vote-for-muslim-fence-jumpers act.
Stalin is just playing to the gallery – we know India doesn’t care about poor Hindus from the neighborhood, doesn’t matter if they are SL Hindus, PB/Sindhi hindus from Pak or Bengali hindus from BD.
> No one gives a damn about TN separatism or exceptionalism.
You seem to give a damn. TN people don’t and I was contextualizing about it only with brown, bhumiputra in this thread.
> Nor will the DMK be a part of the centre, or Modi allow it. There will be cold peace b/w them.
There is cold peace already if you haven’t noticed. DMK have stopped directly attacking natl BJP leadership and ED/CBI are nowhere to be seen in TN (DMK family have done plenty in 2 years to attract ED).
I think it’s all about the numbers. For LS 2024, to make up for any shortfall in RJ, BH, MP, KA, HP etc, BJP will take along anybody, including DMK (they have done it before), same way they have taken along Akalis before and other separatist parties of yore from NE. Neither DMK nor BJP are a principled lot.
Again the bill was not brought in to slight Tamil Hindus. Why do u folks, always think that you are so important?
The point is that Tamil Hindus are so immaterial in Hindutva calculation that EVEN the Bengalis sort of pip them from the bottom. That the BJP could have included Tamil Hindus in this useless bill, (which i am pretty sure would not be implemented anyway), and it would not have mattered, but still didn’t.
Plus on NRC, you seem to put a lot of weight on Amit Shah’s words. Let me present you someone, who’s words sort of weigh tad bit heavily than Shah.
‘PM Narendra Modi: No talk of NRC at all, lies being spread about detention centres’
Half asleep
1 year ago
When people talk about the cultural clash between BIMARU India and Non-BIMARU India they often overlook a surprising aspect of Hindi pop culture. Since Hindi is the most widely spoken language in India, outsiders automatically assume that Hindi speaking states form the core cultural group of India. This is a reasonable assumption since the culture associated with a particular language is usually produced by the native speakers of that language. However, Hindi is a striking exception to this rule. If you look at the famous actors, directors, or playback singers of Bollywood, it’s easy to see that almost all of them are Punjabis, Urdu speaking Muslims, Bengalis, Maharashtrians or South Indians. Indian pop culture is essentially the culture of Non-BIMARU states, and BIMARU India, despite having all the native speakers, is almost invisible even in the Hindi cultural sphere.
Why does this happen ? Why can’t BIMARU India compete with the states where Hindi is spoken as a second or third language ?
Long overdue. I think ISRO weather forecasting just does not provide the granularity or frequency to be of any practical use for most people. Not sure why this was not prioritized before. Limited money for tech projects in IN further gets wasted on lot of pet white elephant projects.
“ DMK’s efforts to de-Hinduize #Pongal and make it Samathuva Pongal will be roundly defeated like how it’s attempt to change the Hindu Tamil New Year from 14th April to Pongal day has been defeated. Pongal was, is and will be a Hindu Festival celebreated by Tamils. “
Why in the 88 percent hindu land , a Hindu festival being de – Hinduized
Pognal is not “De-hinduized”, its being Secularied and its a good thing. We get to culturally assimilate Xtians&Muslims into our culture that way. This is not any different from Christmas in the west being turned into a “Secular” holiday that even non-chrsitians&atheists celebrate.
Here’s a fun thought, wouldn’t it be neat if Muslim Biharis celebrated Holi? Well, we got our Muslims celebrate Tamil Makar Sankranti.
You do not need to fight me or justify anything. Just accept it. It’s not like we can change anything. The minimum one expects is to alteast be truthful to the ground realities.
Plus it’s not like regions which were erstwhile hindu areas haven’t converted to non Hindu areas.
Fuck secular festivals, this is capitalist propaganda. No compromise. Ek dhnag ki cheez hai Hinduism mein, woh bhi hagg do… I will trade 100 Christmas for 1 Chhath or Ganesh Chaturthi. I don’t want gora or mulla people in my festivals, just give me the old school deal. These stupid ideas always come from folks who don’t give even 11 rupay to a temple and have to think fifty times about touching feet of the temple Pandit ji or first gen working Indian women in 20s-30s-40s who consider festivals as chores. Thankfully my milieu is free of this disease so far.
I think similarly about weddings too. Dowry is almost dead which is excellent. But I hate the court marriages or muted ceremonies Indians do in the US and sometimes even in India. I have seen such lame Hindu weddings in the past five years… Depressing. Spend atleast some money on weddings folks, have fun with friends and family, life is short. Chindi-pana is not enlightenment.
My UP school friends are doing ‘destination’ weddings in Coimbatore, Mysore, Kerala, …
Lamest ceremonies I have ever seen, no one knows what the fuck is going on, feels like some college party. Some Madraasi pandit ji who is too nice to shout at the North Indian late-arrival/drunk/giggling dulha and enforce muhurat, a dulhan who is more interested in Instagram. Wannabe parents who want to ape Bollywood. NO old people to help Pandit ji with their jati-varna-regional customs, no folk songs, no dholak, no harmonium… Wannabe Chutiyapa
I would always happily pay for solid old school ceremonies over any Arya Samaji or ‘Bollywood-style’ nonsense.
So question – particulary for Razib. Has anyone done any breakdown on West Siberian Hunter Gatherer, and its proportion in IVC populations and modern Indian cline populations?
It seems particularly interesting in the context of steppe proportions, and their shared ANE origins.
not rigorously to my knowledge
@razib, would you be amenable to doing one? I wonder if the MLBA Steppe people imposed themselves on an order dominated by WSHG ancestry
Yay, a new thread!
https://www.opindia.com/2023/01/disturbing-statistics-of-forced-conversions-murders-and-rapes-of-religious-minorities-in-bangladesh-reports/
Very sad
Indus Gang
https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.timesofindia.com/india/gujarats-harappan-necropolis-reveal-death-rituals-of-5000-years-ago/amp_articleshow/96821787.cms
Ami is a good source to represent the SE Asian ancestry within Bengalis. I was using Kinh and then tried Ami on someone’s suggestion and it improved the fits. Very neat.
Any thoughts on Julian Jaynes – the Origin of consciousness in the breakdown of the bicameral mind?
west world series was built on that. Consciousness as recent works seem to suggest is a form of anticipation, hallucination according to anil seth. I would begin there, IIT theory is also interesting, though its foundational basis is a kind of monism, make of it what you will.
The theory might have some merits but is false, because consciousness exists to some measure in animals themselves much before humans, i dont see any basis of that kind of theory.
i admire the ambition, probably wrong.
i think we just need to work on gathering more evidence about consciousness (our current most advanced tech in this regard is general anestheisa) before speculating.
peter zeihan is scary. And yes, natural resources are important. world trade matters.
https://www.reddit.com/r/indianews/comments/106lpce/all_bravery_of_amit_shahs_delhi_police_is_against/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Interesting
now that foreign universities will open campuses in india, will the humanities studies be hijacked by witzel, pollock types?
already is. Look at JNU. Look at the big journalists for Western media outlets. Indian Leftists are even bigger charlatans than Western ones. If anything, maybe there will be a tiny bit of improvement with less entrenched people coming in. They will still talk badly, but they won’t have as much basis motivated reasoning.
https://www.instagram.com/beardedwarrior1/?hl=en
Lifetime vegetarian monster British Punjabi Indian Sikh lifter. Possibly natty too looking at the feds. Respect
Everything is so expensive in Canada bruh I wish my parents immigrated to Florida or something instead much warmer there too
Its gonna get even more expensive as well given Trudeau is bringing in like a million immigrants every year. Literally half the kids from my native village in India are “studying” in Canada.
It used to be quite prestigious to live in Canada but nowadays pretty anyone from South Asia can go there. Same thing with the UK. My cousins in India say migrating to these countries is just like moving to Delhi or Bangalore nowadays. And now my extended family in Canada and UK are trying to move to the US lol. Don’t know the situation wrt to Australia and New Zealand. The byzantine US immigration policy makes it hard for South Asians to mass migrate here like CAN and UK. Having other sizeable ethnic/racial minorities makes it hard too. IIRC it was the Black and Hispanic caucus within the Democratic Party that blocked the recent attempt at H1b liberalization.
Half a million immigrants a year is basically an opportunity to make shit ton of money in Canada. People always find reason to complain and some of it relating to cultural change is valid. But economically it’s just a huge opportunity to get rich served on a platter.
Getting quite cold in Rangpur and in Bangladesh as a whole. Streets don’t seem to have a lot of the cycle”vans” that I saw years back when I visited. More paved and proper sidewalks, decent bits of organization but blaring horns are still there haha
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZASg5-Z7sA
Over time I have become numb to any award, academic appointment, ‘civil society recognition’, weekly-columnist type BS. None of them matter anymore. It is about writing nice essays, having friends who can nominate you…
Same thing with American news media. NYT-WaPo-… its all a circle jerk.
—
Sagarika Ghosh has gone nuts about ‘#Mishraji’, spewing all sorts of nonsense about UP-Bihar.
https://mobile.twitter.com/SandeepParekh/status/1612275103982833667
She has made like 20 more tweets on this.
She was a Rhodes Scholar , but I don’t think it is that hard to get Rhodes, + connected Delhi circle of native informants + brown woman card + activism, journalism card,…
Everything about her and her Congressi husband’s subsequent career is mediocre.
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I find this attitude in a lot of Bengalis and increasingly Tamils online. This is all very educational for us North Indians. These guys genuinely think our people are uncouth and unclean. Tag team with Khalistanis to joke about ‘Bhaiyyas shitting in the open’. Hilarious!
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Hindi/Cow-heartland should wake up and take up this challenge of inter state competition. Rest of the Indians are not like us.
Beating W. Bengal should be immediate goal.
Advantage UP: hardworking people, lack of organized pull of communism/socialism, pro-industrialization electorate.
Advantage W. Bengal: COAST, deeper roots of science education, health and hygiene, no entrenched caste politics, less freeloaders.
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I do sympathize with UC grievances about caste based quotas. I do not care about Bamans or Thakurs crying ‘oppression’. They are being discriminated against by the state, but by and large they are not oppressed.
The funny bit is North Indian OBCs are the vanguard of BJP but Bamans get the flak.
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she clearly is pro xtian if not one already. so is her husband. cryptos and half cryptos are the silent war that most dont notice. bjp instead of creating force multipliers through temples etc, still finds it useful to control it by govts. U just need to create a right critera . ultimately, rss/bjp and their stupidities will cost this H’s and this country the most, others are hopeless, sold out for greed.
bhimrao@
sincere wishes from me to UP/BH.
up is benefitting from noida. but eastern UP/BH is still constant stream of bad news.
Latest one being caste census in BH. This coupled with Wire pitching quotas in private sector tells us a precursor of ’24 campaign and what is in store if there is a surprise upset. Will wreck IN’s economic chances for the next 50 years or so. NiKu has been a big disappointment. Could have steered the JDU remnants in to a responsible opposition but alas he also seems to have hitched his bandwagon to tukde-tukde gang.
To me one of the turnaround signals would be one of the WITCH companies opening up offices anywhere between Lucknow and Patna.
out of billion people and now over 70 yrs , bihari people have the perfect track record of choosing the most nikamma leaders consistently and this is unprecedented in India. And on twitter i see many chauvinist educated biharis keep shitting on modi, bjp, rss and keep giving excuses of freight equalization etc endlessly.
At this point, the reason for lack of progress in bihar i believe is due to chauvinist impluses and having less humility than anywhere else. All one needs to do is learn from others, none of bihari leaders or bureaucrats have been able to do that for over 70 yrs. If it was an independent country, our view of it would be pretty straight forward. I am compassionate, but i believe in accountability and numbers are now clear. This is a pattern and the reason for it is chauvinism.
A simple question, how many investment meets did nitish arrange with top businesses etc in all his period in power?.
Nitish won because Lalu-raj was 5X worse. At least people don’t get kidnapped now.
One way I explain it is: UP has Delhi to look up to. Bihar has nothing, Biharis want to become prosperous by being like Bengalis of old. Let me explain, Bengalis had an advantage in college education, for two centuries up till 80s-90s, a lot of Bengalis used to become government servants as food-inspectors, teachers, bankers, insurance-agents,… simply by walking into interview rooms as the only ones with a degree. When you talk to these old Bengalis they are pretty dull, dumb but conceited people, and who did they project their dumbness and vanity on? Bihar and Jharkhand.
Biharis and large number of UP people think that getting a government job is still the way to go.
None of this takes away the agency of Biharis and UP folks. We are responsible for this mess.
educated nativist chauvinists are the problem. World is bigger place to look upto , look at TN, they are chauvinists, but have humility towards world . One simple measure of this is, how many business meetings do they do, how many other countries do the leaders travel to?. Modi went outside India even as CM. How many countries did nitish go to strike deals?.
Indian ministers of congress/ nehru-gandhi vintage like mai baap ki sarkar, they like to rule the roost, want to be head of village and want all people to bow in front of them, including all scientists, businesspeople etc.
Nitish is of the same type. Want everyone to do ji huzuri. More chauvinists means less interaction across business/world and as a result, no development since there is no investment and no good ideas on how to develop.
Pavan varma types used to tell sob tales of how places like bihar need to be helped for being poor etc and I used to buy that. I now see him and people like him as shameless scum who for decades hid this jaundiced reality by bsing in fine english/hindi ganga jamuni tehzeeb.
Just checked google for pics of ratan tata and nitish kumar, zero pics. modi and ratan tata has many pics.
A cm, who has not taken lessons from the best Industrialist in the country. what arrogant pric.
What we have:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_administrative_divisions_by_GDP_per_capita
What we should work for:
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/-/ddn-20210303-1
UP-Bihar have to find ways to be useful without the coast.
“educated nativist chauvinists are the problem. World is bigger place to look upto , look at TN, they are chauvinists, but have humility towards world . One simple measure of this is, how many business meetings do they do, how many other countries do the leaders travel to?”
This should be one of the things to improve. The situation (law-order, health, education, in that order) and day to day politics (caste) is so tangled that people tend to lose the bigger picture.
Indians (in and around India) are a talkative people. Don’t take anything they say seriously.
Biharis grabbing the central government jobs is maybe the reason the Bengali ghose is upset 😊. UP/BH folks are following their Bengali brethren to western universities as well. I see lots of mishras, jhas and prasads spouting woke to climb up the greasy pole.
Re investor meets, I believe BH is the only one apart from NE. Ffs even Channi and Mann at least pretended to care about investment.
At the aggregate level politicians do respond to what their voters care about. This piece of the puzzle seems to be missing.
Was recently at a Tex-Mex restaurant in the DMV area, and was absolutely stunned to see the doppelgängers of South Asians from the East, West and North among non-White Latinos. Saw a huge family of Gujarati origin there, clearly speaking in their mother tongue, and were it not for their accent/language I would never have guessed them as South Asian. Looked fully like Indigenous and Mestizo Latinos and blended in with the non White Latino crowd. They were probably around 50% West Eurasian and 50% AASI or more. Which is a direct parallel to the average Mexican who is around 50-55% West Eurasian, 45-50% Asian and thus both look like the same race and ethnic group.
The servers there kept speaking to them in Spanish and acted hugely surprised when they responded in English. OTOH, the few Caucasians there (including Central South Asians like myself) were all spoken to in English and stood out like sore thumbs. The racial differences between South Asians are gigantic and the two ends of the South Asian PCA cline correspond to a difference almost as large as Nigerians and Coptic Christians from Egypt. The few endogamous tribes in South Asia and NW India that are fully Caucasian (Jaats, Kambojas, Khatris etc) will never be mistaken for non White/Latin and will always be considered a Caucasian of some origin.
There is a vast difference in phenotype once you reach the 10-15% AASI threshold as is found among Jaats and Rors and other NW South Asians. Not only do Northerners and Westerners with more AASI look Latin, the ones in the South and Central regions look conspicuously South Asian due to a completely different admixture strain of AASI and other unique elements not found in the North.
Truly incredible how there are so many parallels between South Asia and Latin America. Both in race, class and culture. The income disparities and corruption are also similar in both regions. Both regions have a history of being conquered by West Eurasians and still suffer from its ramifications today.
You are such a wildly unhinged individual hahahahahah “harnizo”
Man, Indians really do hate looking like Indians, the self-hate is spectacular. They will do anything and everything and say they look like this or that before admitting they look like what they are.
Take a bow, Racelearner. You really are one hell of a speciment
A foolish comment from an even more foolish South Asian (possibly Afghan, I know how much they like picking on their fellow South-Central Asian brethren)
Pray tell me, what exactly does an Indian look like? And then tell me what it means to say that “Indians hate looking Indian” — please expound upon this brilliant statement my friend, because I am at a loss to understand what you mean by that.
It’s like saying Americans hate looking American. Or Latin Americans hate looking Latin American. In other words it makes no sense whatsoever.
You sir, are a complete lunatic.
Donors offer over $9B for Pakistan after devastating floods
https://apnews.com/article/floods-politics-pakistan-macron-united-nations-8681331c40882bd95d6280873733d9db
IMO shameful to beg like this.
A stupid man and his money deserve to be parted.
I think after haay-tauba on War on Terrorism, this is the new Pakistani shtic… these same people were trying to stand as ‘equals’ to the west and say no to… shame.
90% of those “donations” are in fact loans, admittedly on concessional terms. The days of genuinely free gibs are over for Pakistan.
Pakistan will find a way, this is their regular nautanki. As for no money:
https://quwa.org/2023/01/13/updates-to-pakistans-drone-fleet/
Si-Paaikk, Pav bhar ka Nuclear bum, Labbaik-Labbaik ya rasu-gulla…
Are Sinhalese people closer genetically to Tamils or Bengalis ? (non-brahmins)
‘Are Sinhalese people closer genetically to Tamils’
This is how civil war are started, so careful where u going with this 😛
Quite a bit drunk, so some music.
I pretty much listen music only when drinking.||
Growing up as a third gen very westernized kid I loved (and still do) much of modern western music, like Rock. Not real western music as in Bach. But is modern music of the west, really of the west.
You hear of some saying Africa has no culture. But then the radio keeps blaring the beats of African music. Of course made popular by the Americans. No complaints here. a typical Stockholm Syndrome chap.
Celina y Reutilio – Que Viva Chango (Video Oficial) 1949
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y06C82oAz9o
Chango is the Orisha, a deity in Yoruba religion
Of course most self centered people of each country think their history is most important. (I do too).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shango
For those who have not heard of Jazz great names like Mongo SANTAMARIA. Played with Santana, Dizzy Guillespie etc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiREUXxzWsA
Back to Sri Lankan and AASI music
Pretty sure the black dancer is a guy.
I just love that color, the real pure black.
Pure black, no change of color in the nether regions.
Its just one color. Not even a change of pink like for Europeans
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YskE–ZvWaM
Why the CIA attempted a ‘Maidan uprising’ in Brazil
The failed coup in Brazil is the latest CIA stunt, just as the country is forging stronger ties with the east.
A former US intelligence official has confirmed that the shambolic Maidan remix staged in Brasilia on 8 January was a CIA operation, and linked it to the recent attempts at color revolution in Iran.
On Sunday, alleged supporters of former right-wing President Jair Bolsonaro stormed Brazil’s Congress, Supreme Court, and presidential palace, bypassing flimsy security barricades, climbing on roofs, smashing windows, destroying public property including precious paintings, while calling for a military coup as part of a regime change scheme targeting elected President Luis Inacio “Lula” da Silva.
According to the US source, the reason for staging the operation – which bears visible signs of hasty planning – now, is that Brazil is set to reassert itself in global geopolitics alongside fellow BRICS states Russia, India, and China.
A former US intelligence official has confirmed that the shambolic Maidan remix staged in Brasilia on 8 January was a CIA operation, and linked it to the recent attempts at color revolution in Iran.
On Sunday, alleged supporters of former right-wing President Jair Bolsonaro stormed Brazil’s Congress, Supreme Court, and presidential palace, bypassing flimsy security barricades, climbing on roofs, smashing windows, destroying public property including precious paintings, while calling for a military coup as part of a regime change scheme targeting elected President Luis Inacio “Lula” da Silva.
According to the US source, the reason for staging the operation – which bears visible signs of hasty planning – now, is that Brazil is set to reassert itself in global geopolitics alongside fellow BRICS states Russia, India, and China.
A former US intelligence official has confirmed that the shambolic Maidan remix staged in Brasilia on 8 January was a CIA operation, and linked it to the recent attempts at color revolution in Iran.
On Sunday, alleged supporters of former right-wing President Jair Bolsonaro stormed Brazil’s Congress, Supreme Court, and presidential palace, bypassing flimsy security barricades, climbing on roofs, smashing windows, destroying public property including precious paintings, while calling for a military coup as part of a regime change scheme targeting elected President Luis Inacio “Lula” da Silva.
According to the US source, the reason for staging the operation – which bears visible signs of hasty planning – now, is that Brazil is set to reassert itself in global geopolitics alongside fellow BRICS states Russia, India, and China.
https://thecradle.co/Article/Columns/20209
Roy,
is that Brazil is set to reassert itself in global geopolitics alongside fellow BRICS states Russia, India, and China.
Yes, within the last year or two regime change attempts to those leaning towards Russia and China.
The first was the 2014 Maidan revolution in Ukraine, a la “Fuck the EU” Victoria Nuland. That got the Clown (literally and figuratively) Zelensky installed.
Then just after Nulands visit to South Asia
a) Russia and China leaning Imran Khan got ousted.
b) In SL there were the Aragalaya Protests and storming of Parliament. The Rajapakses President and PM resigned. By a constitutional Parliament vote right of center Ranil Wickremasinghe became President. He did not even win his seat in 2020 Parliament elections.
There were other shenanigans, like rating agency down grades. Prevents or makes it very expensive to raise money in International Money Market. Then one has to beg from IMF and they will get their pound of flesh. Basically sell our assets to the west, also called privatization.
We did better, SL stopped paying its International Debts. 50% owed to Hedge Funds like Black Rock, IMF and ADB about 30%. 9% to China and they dont care as they have a strategic asset, the Hambanthota port.
So another own goal by the west, much like sanctions destroying EU and Germany in particular, economies.
Regards not being able to raise dollars by borrowing, I am glad.
a) We need to be at least partially self sufficient. Not live it up on imported goodies. Even wheat flour and lentils* used by rural poor are imported. Plenty of substitutes and we had that in the 70’s under Mrs Bandaranaike.
b) Our foreign ME remittances are back to 30% or more, and not being used to service debt. (Tourism still low)
c) Regards fossil fuels, Russia, India and China are giving it to us on credit and steep discounts. China just gave (as in free) diesel for agricultural use.
Have look at the economic stats.
https://imgur.com/gallery/AFQkCHe
Naatu, naatu from RRR wins golden globes.
Couple of twtr threads show Bay Area theatres crowds (whites + asaians)whistling and dancing like movie goers back in IN.
https://mobile.twitter.com/alicialutes/status/1612724942520586240
While I enjoy the meltdown of less Hindu ethnicities to the movie Hindu imagery 😂😂
https://twitter.com/kookykarthik/status/1613040287525535745?s=46&t=wkGjNzZTO7HkziHsd-IPXg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_ZsIATmkHE
and the winner is singing song about jesus.
I did not see this before, but 4 Indian actresses, either married or have/had a white bf. what is happening?. Was this a cultural shift that happened that I did not notice?.zinta,chopra,saran, d’souza. ???.
All within a period of 10 yrs.
radhika apte as well. not a single black dude or middle eastern dude or asian dude or anything else. funny.
Indians girls becoming like East Asian girls 🤔
i just checked and the numbers are much more than that, i just saw few actors and thought, am i seeing a pattern, worse, some of these are not rich either. I think its clear, all those fair looks that go into making Indian actress lead them to look for same.
The mindset i changed as a 12 yrs old, i find it hard to believe most human beings like their biases and wont see to correct their thinking.
Apparently BH minister bad mouthing ram charitmanas
https://mobile.twitter.com/PoliticalKida/status/1613183866952634368
BHs making the transition from communist krantikaaris to woke krantikaaris.
https://twitter.com/MaliniP/status/1612867412411703296
‘For those in Tamilnadu of Tamil origin, which identity would you choose as your primary one if you had to choose one or the other below?
Indian
Tamil’
Interesting survey results
Will be similar in Punjab.
True for all less-Hindu regions
Plenty evidence of Tamil first, nation nowhere right next door.
Oh, dont u worry. That could soon be true on this side of the coast as well 😉
dont mind , let racists be racists , i am out of this topic, onto next one.
https://m.timesofindia.com/videos/toi-original/watch-hindu-temple-vandalised-in-australias-melbourne-by-pro-khalistan-supporters/videoshow/96939044.cms
Another one. Always BAPs
@Sumit
I dont respect humanities, arts/ cinema etc, they have highest % of lunatics.
Strong sentiments in Kannada Twitter against use of Hindi in public spaces. More and more 90s kids joining in and not just Vatal Nagaraj types.
At least 2-3 lateral factors in play – the Maharashtra intransigence in the border districts, cultural topics (Kannada vs Sanskrit) that get out of hand and…..more consistently we see a lot of national left wing media houses aligning behind Hindi speakers.
The last factor is roiling the local leftist scene as it prevents consolidation of its traditional vote blocs.
The issue will surely gather momentum into a hardball that Bommai will find it tough to tackle.
In time Kannada chauvinists will learn that the only viable road is full blown cultural revanchism (neither right-wing or left-wing) can provide a salve.
this is very fringe issue. normal kannadiga is not as agitated as a tamil on this issue. at time parties like jds are raising this issue and not getting much traction. there is bit of an irritation of the ‘new’ hindiwallas not learning kannada, an this is in bangalore only.
half the sate was under maratha rule or under the nizam of hyderbad and are aware ofthe hindi/persian words. generally not an issue.
On the language Vs Indian question, I suspect the question was deliberately framed that way. I suspect the results would be similar in all southern states, maybe even MH. However the results would flip if the question were framed as “do you agree that “X” language/culture is part of broader Indian civilization/culture?”.
Gangetic states will not see the difference because they don’t have to give up on their language as implied in the og question.
I doubt that answers would have flipped even for ‘“do you agree that “X” language/culture is part of broader Indian civilization/culture?”. Especially for this question.
We all know which ethnicities/languages we are talking about here. No one goes around saying it to Marathi or Telugu folks, even though they are not Hindi speaking folks, so ur assertion on Gangetic folks is wrong.
The question is specific to none/less-Hindu ethnicities.
30% of Gangetic folks will say they are Muslim first and only Ummah matters. Another 25% (Yadav’s/OBCs) will be ok with this and even support it.
BIMARU kangers have the most insidious political-cultural problem at home for several centuries. And they will go on fact finding missions to other regions to make themselves feel better!
Better 30 percent than 100 percent, No?
“Better 30 percent than…..”
Classic! Tells everything how a band of sheepstealers could reduce this region to servitude.
The impotence of Gangetic folks in building any sort of cultural project makes them fearful of the ones that do.
The only identity having valence in the Gangetic regions is caste. Which is why you have rapproachments like the Muslim – Yadav symbiosis rather than any sort of linguistic or ideological camps.
Well the Gangetic folks did create a culture. Indian/Hindu culture.
All other people are just catching up..
There is a reason why Shinde is the cm and not fadnavis. There was a kerfuffle on RRR twtr where Hindi speakers objected to Jagan and Rajamouli championing telugu cinema and pride.
Not sure why anyone is suprised? The idea of an Indian civilization might have existed for millenia but a strong state to enforce that notion has been a very rare feature in Indian history. The current one is only two generations old. So yeah, not everyone is going to put their broader identity(civilization, nation-state whatever) above their local/regional one. And this phenomenon is not even unique to India. You ask a Quebecois or a Welshman, if they prioritize their regional identity over national ones and they would say yes. And yet their respective nation-states survive. And those countries even have active separatist movements involved in the political process unlike in South India. Trying too hard to impose national identity over regional ones will only backfire.
‘So yeah, not everyone is going to put their broader identity(civilization, nation-state whatever) above their local/regional one.’
Well that’s true. But is there a correlation b/w folks from certain ethnicities putting their regional identities above their broader civilizational identities. While other ethnicities don’t.
I think there is.
https://twitter.com/AhneeMarek/status/1613117598039773184
‘RRR isn’t buzzing because innocent White Americans cannot get the anti-Native narrative and far-right ideas in the film, but because Hindu-chauvinist art has for long been a place where White audiences’ prejudices can comfortably hide in plain sight.
RRR does not differ much from Lagaan and its Oscar entry. White Mensahib innocence, casteist paternalism, majoritarian nationalism passing as anticolonial radicality…’
Superficially, he’s not wrong that white right-wing radicals have long been attracted to Hindutva or even Hinduism in general in a way they haven’t been to e.g. Islam. But I think forcing that narrative into RRR is silly. The reason why he does that is because he’s a white leftist so he feels he can’t talk on behalf of browns, so he tries to find a “white angle”. All part of intersectionality politics.
I suspect that most of the hostility towards RRR will come from woke brown types living in the diaspora. Indeed, this is already happening.
For India, any cultural push into the West will most likely face this stumbling bloc, namely that many “cultural brown critics” absolutely detest its government and will throw Indian films down the gutter if they have to in order to score political points. This is the problem when the right-wing cedes cultural space in the diaspora to activist woke types.
You see the same problem in East Asian cicles. They didn’t know how to react when most of the interracial violence in cities like NYC came from blacks, since all their narratives were based on evil Trump supporters rampaging trying to stage a fascist coup or whatever. The main difference between East Asians and South Asians is that the latter is far more heterogenous, which means there’s plenty of space reserved for “intra-group oppression” narratives. Indeed, we already see this with the Cisco case hyping and Brown University now adding caste to its official list of discriminatory practices. Expect these battles to transcend into the cultural realm, also.
‘I suspect that most of the hostility towards RRR will come from woke brown types living in the diaspora.’
I also see hostility towards RRR from certain ethnicities back in India as well. We all know which ethnicities i am talking about…
Definitely not us 😜. Telugu actors are being adored all over Cow-belt. Allu Arjun, Prabhas, Ram Charan are bonafide superstars in even village barber shops. They have surpassed Rajnikant and Chinranjeevi. Yash and Jr. NTR need a few more Hindi hits.
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I think the first movie that ushered this change was Chattrapathi in 2005. It was qualitatively different from ‘Indra the tiger’ type poop Telugu cinema used to make.
Tamil cinema had a head start in creativity but Telugu cinema finally won and ate the cake.
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I do buy the meta argument that higher GDP/capita leads to better cinema. Bengal did well in cinema before it went broke, Mumbai dominated for decades, Chennai flexed but…, Now it is Hyderabad and Bangalore’s turn.
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“Well the Gangetic folks did create a culture. Indian/Hindu culture.”
The sheepstealers slapped the Gangetic kangers so hard they have now started thinking like them. UP is Mecca, Rgveda.pdf was written in their uncle’s house and Ganga is Zamzam.
Tamilnadu is 88% Hindu while UP is 80% (2011 census). Tamilnadu did not have religious trauma in the past, therefore no need for overt religious signalling. The predominant political culture creates and processes newer forms of mobilization (linguistic, socialistic, middle-caste hegemonies, cinematic idolization etc).
UP has a lot of visible and invisible damage to religiosity. Plus significant counter-mobilization within the Hindu communities (Yadavs/OBCs allying with Muslims against the UCs). There is just enough political energy for survival. None for cultural projects on non-religious lines.
All of this is the root of Saurav’s “less Hindu” rant. Basically a “shirk” type worldview where he processes the incomprehensible political cultures of other Indian regions into the binary of his own region’s faultline.
“ Tamilnadu is 88% Hindu “
LOL
I guess, non-hindu Tamils will be visiting “non-hindu” Temples and celebrating Pongal(a non hindu festival) on Sunday.
ugra, whom do you speak for?. Not telugu or kannada or maharastra or malyalam. For all talk of south/north, kerala on demographic issue is much worse. And they didnt face mughals in such a sustained way.
And there is nothing TN people possessed socially or technologically that could have helped repel the invaders. Their only luck is geography and that others on the north fought and resisted. But are too dumb and arrogant not to respect the sacrifices made.
Tamil chauvinism irks all other south Indians as well, be it telugus, kannadas or malyalis as well. The only ones who fought are marathas and sikhs, the rest were not good enough. Thats the reality. Whether it be martial warfare or even Independence movement.
There was very little contribution from south in determining its own future, its future, was gifted by those who fought for Independence and those who fought invasions. The reality is this that south essentially wasted away over past 4 to 5 centuries and achieved nothing of significance.
One can understand lack of development in north, but what of south?. Why did they so easily fall to british, why is it that they achieved nothing of worth culturally or technologically. Because they were too dumb and arrogant to not care. Intelligence is to learn from others pain.
In the world of ugra, there is no merit in valuing nelson mandela or martin luther king jr, there is no merit in opposing racism either because that is not tamil history. And what is not in tamil history is useless. And any one who were conquered were weak and useless anyway. But that is a typical tamil mind , brainwashed and take pride in their own brainwashing. After all, why work to learn from others when it is easy to arrogate one’s own luck as one’s superiority.
An average person learns from own mistakes,intelligent people learn from others as well. I hope for intelligence, its not there right now.
Endearing video of a BH guy explaining to a woke kraantikari why BH needs temples just like south India
https://mobile.twitter.com/seriousfunnyguy/status/1613540683062849537
The consistent thing about ugra is that he is a chauvinist linguistically and also caste, religion is an after thought. The way to deal with them is not to feed them and self reinforce chauvinism on all sides.
A common language makes a common nation. The concept of a nation state was conceptualized in Europe and was basically based on a strong linguistic identity, where language literally is the basis of most countries. When applying and imposing this idea of a sovereign unitary modern nation state on other non-European regions with diverse sets of linguistic traditions contained within those geographical boundaries, it has only been a cause of strife and division.
The British created Indian nationalism indirectly by promoting the use of the mass language ‘Hindustani’ in regions where other local rural languages were commonly spoken. Hindi has been replacing and absorbing these local languages and the regions that adopted it are the regions that are most nationalistic (according to Saurav)
However Hindi faces resistance in areas where the British did not make Hindustani the official language (Bengal, Madras, Bombay Province, Sindh) and these areas are more insular, and seem have less time for the ‘nation’.
Interestingly Pew did a survey in Pakistan about ethnic vs national identification few years ago, and it seems to agree with my theory.. the survey was done in urban areas (where Urdu is primary language) so one should take it with a grain of salt, but Sindh being an outlier in Pakistan aligns with the fact that Hindustani was not made the official language here.
Qureshi,
There is the european concept of nation formalized at treaty of westphalia 1848. Worth noting how european nations are themselves re-integrating in to EU.
Anyway, we Bharatiyas have our own native traditions of a civilization. It is messy to get it working but there is enough critical mass to keep it going. Tbf none of our subcontinental neighbors who have gone the route of ethno linguistic state have come out as shining sustainable examples. From what I can gather by your earlier arguments — economic growth does not matter as long Ms out breed Hs in the subcontinent, Hs can build the cake, Ms will have it. Your scenario has a non-zero chance of success but that is not an argument for IN to desist from doing it the right and hard way.
Ms will outbreed Hs but in India that might take a couple of centuries and who knows what happens till then? At this point, bigger problem in India is that NIs will outbreed SIs and take the cake. And this seems to concern many SIs.
Anyway I’m just commenting that language is the basis for culture and most of divisions present. It is a powerful tool that can unite as well as divide.
People tend to over look it and unduly blame religion or race/ethnicity.
NIs have always been more numerous than SIs. The coming delimitation exercise in 2026 will be contentious and there will be many parties queering the pitch but I am sure a workable solution will be worked out. As for fiscal transfers, there is in fact wider acceptance of toilet, running water and home construction programs. The overwhelming portion of beneficiaries are NIs. The only sticking points are language/sub-cultures. Again I believe these are easily solvable.
I take your point about language being an important part but my point is that it is not sufficient. European concept of a nation consisting of a single language worked well when small nations like Portugal and Belgium had huge resources rich colonies in Asia and Africa. The moment the age of colonies came to an end in the aftermath of WW 2, the EU was born.
This is the only card Pakistanis (think they) have. Just like they use to chant Nuclear-Nuclear-Nuclear not that long ago.
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Trad twitter has the most interesting ideas and wittiest memes. Some include:
1) Scathing criticism of BJP. Hilarious takedowns of Modi.
2) Advocating active and incessant destabilization of Pakistan.
3) Stats on OBC-OBC, OBC-Dalit, violence.
4) Shitting on Hindutva ‘sluts’ like that big-tit tarot lady and that onlyfan girl Kamya that Vineet from Indic Explorer (BP) interviewed.
5) Shitting on pro Hindutva foreigners.
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Trads can shout all they want but they can’t do anything without BJP.
Despite the occasional V.P. Singh amongst them, NI Thakur trads might pull something big off if Yogi wins. They have muscle, cohesion and genuine will to dominate. I consider Thakurs are already 10X what Khalistanis can ever hope to be. The most bakchod amongst trads are urban NI Bamans. The problem with non land owning NI Bamans i.e. Sharma-Vajpayee-Tiwari types is that they can’t pull the trigger. Their need to sound a certain way is strong. IMO Bengalis are B/C-grade NI Bamans, that is why they are so irritating and conceited.
I do think Narasimha Rao was the best PM of India. If Tamils were not so universally disliked maybe even Kamaraj would have made a good PM.
@Saurav
“Well that’s true. But is there a correlation b/w folks from certain ethnicities putting their regional identities above their broader civilizational identities. While other ethnicities don’t.
I think there is.”
This is true. In all countries that are a union of different ethnic and religious groups, one group is always more invested in the national project than others. This group will generally suppress its own nationalism in favor of a broader civic nationalism. In the UK, its the English, in Canada, its the Anglophones, in the US, its the White Protestants and so on. Failed examples, include Germans in Austria-Hungary and Serbs in Yugoslavia.
In India’s case, there is no doubt that the “core” group is Hindi speaking North Indian Hindus. But they will just have to take one for the team and be ok with chauvinism from other ethnic and religious groups while not displaying their own chauvinism or God forbid impose it on other groups. It sucks for them and might even be unfair but North Indian Hindus can take comfort in that they are not the only ones who have to deal with this. As said before, English in the UK, Anglophones in Canada and White Protestants in the US have to deal with the same thing. Otherwise the national project will fail as the Austrian Germans and Yugoslav Serbs found out the hard way.
HJ,
Sincere question. What are the concrete damages caused by Tamil nationalism to the wider Indian nationalism project?
As long as there are no violent separatist groups, Tamil nationalism should be able to coexist with the Indian state. Of course, if such groups emerge, they should be cracked down. Most people will be ok with that. The rising middle class values security and stability.
Peaceful and democratic political movements that espouse nationalism can be co-opted into the political process at state and national levels. There will be grumbles but the Indian state will be fine. Harsh crackdowns on peaceful political parties on the other hand by the national government will alienate the populace and cause serious issues. India being such a geographically and demographically large country means that Indian nationalism will never be as uniformly widespread as in a small homogeneous country.
But on the whole, the Indian state has done ridiculously well. As I said before, it doesn’t have a long history so its remarkable, how little separatism actually exists in India given the stark linguistic differences between the various states.
Relevant map about whether Europeans are more attached to their region, country or Europe.
https://vividmaps.com/europeans/amp/
A lot of these “problems” are not unique to India.
HJ,
Thank you and my point exactly. On the contrary TN has been providing economic surplus alongwith GJ, MH, TL and KA. My quibble then is your using rhetorical excesses of Tamil sub-nationalism as an excuse to characterize NIs as core group, while condoning “more hindu” rhetoric of NIs. By this rhetorical sleight of hand, you not only downgraded Tamils but other non-Tamil and non-hindi speakers to 2nd class status.
According to NakedCapitalism links on Jan 12, this was a must read. I agree. Would add the same (as in collapse) for the US, 1.2 million deaths deaths and not an issue.
——-
Watching Britain turn into what it is now — the first rich European country to become a failed state, which in itself is mind-boggling — is to witness something historic.
Britain’s different. It had…everything. I mean that. It had everything that a modern society could wish for, and then some. It used to be the envy of the world. Until a decade ago — just ten years — the NHS was the world’s best healthcare system.
Right about now, Britain’s own finer minds have estimated that there have been 25,000 excess deaths because…the NHS has collapsed.
Why Britain’s (Severely) Underestimating British Collapse
Post-Brexit Britain’s Collapse Is So Extreme, It’s Genuinely Unprecedented
https://eand.co/why-britains-severely-underestimating-british-collapse-4d5f50550c62
Some of his points are valid, most of it is overblown but his writing is definitely cringe.
But all of his initial points regarding health and economy are just a cover for his real gripe, which he drops at the end. That Britain is xenophobic. I guess taking in hundreds of thousands of immigrants from all over the world is not enough for Mr Haque. Standard for someone like him. His other posts are similarly targeted at Western right wing. You used to see a lot of these takes 5-10 years ago when the War on Terror was still relevant but its getting rarer nowadays.
Hyperbole
HJ
There was a similar article on the NHS by Danny Dorling, a British social geographer and is the Halford Mackinder Professor of Geography of the School of Geography and the Environment of the University of Oxford.
A&E (Accident and Emergency) delays are ‘killing up to 500 people a week’”.
This figure – 5% above the normal number of people who die each week, though that baseline is also rising – can surely be traced back to the act, which ushered in a greater wave of privatisation than ever before. It compelled NHS management to behave as if they were in the private sector, competing to win business, and led to an increase in the proportion of contracts won and the use of contracts overall.
By 2019, life expectancy for women had fallen in almost a fifth of all neighbourhoods and in over a tenth for men. Poorer people, both old and young, in poorer areas suffered most, with infant mortality among babies born to the poorest parents rising. Later there was a rise in deaths of women who were pregnant.
Again, the damage was not so much through the extent of covert privatisation, but through the wider ethos that had been promoted. Take the USA: most of the enormous amount of money spent on healthcare there has little impact on improving health, because the ethos is wrong.
How Austerity Caused the NHS Crisis
https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2023/01/how-austerity-caused-the-nhs-crisis.html
@HJ
‘But they will just have to take one for the team and be ok with chauvinism from other ethnic and religious groups while not displaying their own chauvinism or God forbid impose it on other groups. ‘
Well what have been N-Indians being doing apart from ‘taking one for the team’ all these years?
My argument is NI patience is wearing thin. The other Indians have to step up now. We are done dealing with the shit and mollycoddling other Indians. Now we do what we want. And if that irks other Indians, or make them feel ‘2nd class citizen’ or whatever, then so be it.
That in a nutshell is the rise of the BJP/Modi.
Saurav@, bhimrao@,
Sincerely…Please list the pain points or damage caused by Tamils, and/or by other SIs that you had to mollycoddle.
Tamils damaged their egos by rejecting Hindi&Hindutva lol
… and Hinduism.
Go the whole hog, man
@Saurav TN has the most temples in all of India, by saying “Tamils are not Hindu”, the only thing you’re taking away from us is a trivial Persian exonym. UNESCO won’t deem the Chola Temples unworthy if its not called Hindu.
BJPites tend to throw a tantrum and call Tamils Anti-Hindu, because we don’t accept their Islam related Historical Grievances. Look, you guys can either learn from the past and bounce back like the japs after WW2 Or you can wallow&stew in this “Hindu Victimhood Identity” like the BLM folks. Most Indians are over colonialism, we’ve made UK our trade partners and English the official language of India. Does this mean that we’ve forgotten the atrocities? No, but we also don’t hold onto it and use the resentment as the basis for our National Identity.
Its heartening to see that its not just the less-Hindu ethnicities of the subcontinent who are facing an identity crisis
Bruh, you folks don’t even see yourselves as an ethnicity, you yourself are only obsessed with gatekeeping the Hindu Identity lol Adding to what @HJ said, Cowbelt has always acted as the laboratory for “National Projects”, whether it be Nehru’s Ganga-Jamuni-Tehzeeb or Savarkar’s Hindutva. Aside from Hindutva, i can’t think of a common historical narrative for Cowbelt in the same way Sangam Era is for Tamils. Marwari&Awadi speakers don’t see each others as any closer than say, any other Hindi speaking Indian.
‘UNESCO won’t deem the Chola Temples unworthy if its not called Hindu.’
Forget UNESCO, do Tamils themselves see Cholas as Hindus? First clear it out among yourselves.
https://www.dailyo.in/entertainment/were-the-cholas-hindu-or-not-decoding-the-history-behind-the-kamal-haasan-ps1-controversy-37540
‘Aside from Hindutva, i can’t think of a common historical narrative for Cowbelt in the same way Sangam Era is for Tamils. ‘
Bro, again . We gave this country its identity, and its religion. We can rest a bit, you would say. Let others pick up some slack.
well seriously yes,
one more bjp term in centre and dmk out of power in centre will be disastrous for them.
karunanidhi would have found a way to worm back into modi’s good books.
our wig raja is not that savvy and the fringe ‘tamil nationalists’ have have taken power.
Brown@
You are talking about loss of Tamil bargaining chip due to single party government in Delhi. Coalition government relying on Tamil and/or telugu parties was true only from 89-2014. Language chauvinism was present even earlier as well when Congress dominated center. Even then TN development trajectory has been better right from the beginning. I don’t see how Tamils are blocking NIs. Is the assumption that they consistently vote for regional Tamil parties reason enough to brand them separatists?
Seriously this mentality is not good for anyone. I am glad the modi/bjp don’t subscribe to this mentality.
In fact Tamil opinion has been generally appreciative of modi government line in the rus-ukr war. It was very satisfying to read the dejection of nyt opinion columnist who had to quote a Chennai businessman who approved the government handling of the situation.
Carnival a la Sri Lanka
This is a perahera a “Buddhist Procession” in the Deep South.
What is to be noted
a) The horn sections of the different groups.
I mean each group has its own horn section
b) You can spot the different groups by the designs on the sarongs
c) Whats with the deep south Sinhalese, they love the horns and drums.
Devundara perahera kavadi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCniK078ZrQ
This is the daytime perahera
Note
a) the extra tall “women” at 4:16 mins
b) the “women on horses” at 6:27 mins
Mirissa Perahera Festival 2019
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5lqtAbb1xw
The endless needless chauvinism we see here is a sign of low brain power. Try better guys. If something is wrong, point it out. i point to problem with bihar,but dont taunt or make snide remarks, have constructive criticism.
To Bhumiputra,
1. The foundation for tamilnadu’s development was laid by British and subsequent Congress govt. Once the Dravidian became ruling class the development is patchy.
2. Intellectually Tamil has stagnated. Kannada 6 jnanapeeta Awards Vs. 2 for Tamil.
3. The Dravidian speak in double endrand as far as separatisim goes. This will be called out by others sooner than later. This time has come.
4. The outward movement of Tamils to other states has reduced. This has made them very inward looking.
1. tamilians will say their tank irrigation system predated british. not my area of expertise. TN has dravidian governments since 69 and has maintained the lead while improving HDI.
2. None of our (kannadiga’s) business and good for us. I trust tamilians to realize that and focus on producing cultural output. afaik they have not stopped Hindi or any other language speakers to produce good literature or music.
3. not sure what specific double standards you have in mind. The fact is that in 62 war, even DMK gave up its nominally separatist demand. Even now, public opinion is broadly supportive of IN’s foreign policy line in the RUS-UKR war. Beyond that they are aggressive/touchy with their language. But that does not justify grouping them with Punjabi separatism. We kannadigas already have water sharing and other issues with TN. I for one don’t want to import the Punjabi-Poorbiya dynamic down south and make things worse.
4. Seriously, a people are being dinged for being happy and content in their own home state?
The only ppl who have a genuine gripe with periyar politics are TamBrahms.
TN does “seem” to have issues with influence of church esp with DMK gov. But that applies to AP as well. That partly explains traction that bjp/annamalai and admk are getting. The final outcome is not known. The best Hindus/Dharmics in other states can do is not go around calling Tamils lesser Hindus.
calling ppl lesser H’s is bad and i did call out on that before as well.
“ The best Hindus/Dharmics in other states can do is not go around calling Tamils lesser Hindus.“
There is a reason why the CAA does not cover Tamils from Lanka. The most recently affected people due to any civil war: while it covers even Bengalis.
You know where they lie in the totem pole. No one needs to say it. Everyone know it’s. And some like HJ accept it.
I don’t think you understand the true purpose of CAA. It’s all about disenfranchising illegal muslim immigrants from PAK/BD, who will never vote for BJP. And keep them as bargaining chips for any future negotiations. SL, Tibet would have been included if there is a chance of Muslims from these places immigrating to India.
They don’t give af about Hindus from the neighborhood. It’s a minuscule number to make a difference to the BJP votebank. Actually, minorities from PAK/BD don’t need CAA at all – current rules already allow them to legally immigrate and naturalize in India. But nobody cares about them – proof is the Pak Hindus refugees settled near Delhi for decades – they don’t even have electricity, forget about citizenship. India is not Israel.
SL Hindus who want to be here (Civil war refugees) and should be here (Hill tamils) are already here. SL Tamils have better places to go like Canada, UK, Norway etc.
Bro, my folks brought the CAA. Rest assured i understand it totally. Though i oppose it fully, but not for the reasons widely touted about.
What you are talking about ‘disenfranchising illegal muslim immigrants’ is NRC and not CAA. But you are right in one thing , there are bargaining chips, just that it not the muslims, but the Hindus (PB, Sindhi and Bengali) of these other countries. Vote for citizenship. Simple.
Since the Bengali Hindus didn’t vote the BJP, there is no CAA for them. What i want to point out that the BJP and the larger Hindutva movement does not even consider Tamil Hindus in their consideration within the ambit of such useless bill. That shows them their position.
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/tamil-nadu/are-sri-lankan-tamils-not-hindus-asks-stalin/article30314508.ece
‘Are Sri Lankan Tamils not Hindus, asks Stalin’
@brown, @bhumiputra,
1. Tank irrigation in TN (and large parts of Southern Kerala) is a thousand years old, dates to the Late Chola period, and continuously improved during Nayak, Maratha, British eras. In the Cauvery delta you can find water rights that go back centuries.
2. Tamil literature is healthier than ever – footfalls on book fairs even in second rung towns are testament to this. There was a mass daily reading movement during the COVID lockdown period. I think you may not have heard about Venmurasu – a Mahabharatha novelization – longest novel in the world, written in the last decade.
IMHO JP awards are not a great yardstick for vitality. Why do I say that? Politics. You expect SL Bhyrappa to ever get JP award? I say politics because one of the two JP recipients for Tamil (Akilan) doesn’t deserve it. And two others who deserve it and more (Ashokamitran and Ki Rajanarayanan) were never considered at all – they both are certainly better than someone like Kambara.
Tamil performing arts are not doing great (except Bharatanatyam), when compared to say Kathakali or Yakshagana.
3. I just don’t get this TN separatism talk at all. Sounds like non-Tamil people make a huge hue and cry about TN separatism more than TN people. Let me make it clear – there is zero ground level support for separatism, whatever little there was was gone after Rajiv/1991. Q branch and other state intelligence agencies have done a great job in eliminating any fringe separatist elements – be it Maoists, Linguistic separatists or radical islamists. Sabre rattling by DMK is just that – they will shut up as soon as they make a deal with BJP and become a part of the ruling dispensation in the centre.
No one gives a damn about TN separatism or exceptionalism. Nor will the DMK be a part of the centre, or Modi allow it. There will be cold peace b/w them.
What you see is the rise of N-Indian supremacism who have for long resisted throwing their weight around. Which has irked the other ethnic/language supremacists who thought they had the only right to play that card. The BJP leads the former, while the opposition/Congress leads the latter.
Both Karuna and MGR/Jaya laid down the industrial oriented pipeline of TN as we see it today. Congress under Rajaji, Kamaraj got basics right.
Most UPwallahs (subalterns, OBCs) and other North groups have a grudging admiration of TN Dravidianism.
It is a middle caste hegemonic force that has controlled both UCs and Dalit resurgence from spinning out of control. Communists don’t get too much traction and Congress remains a trained lapdog.
Everywhere else, especially in the Gangetic Belt – Yadav’s and subalterns are out of control, communists destroyed Kolkata (a premier Asian hub) and most politicos are anti-industry. Clusterfuck after clusterfuck.
Tamilnadu gets approximately 45000 crores of internal investment annually from the North Indian hinterland. People know a safe haven when they see one.
The maritime industriousness of the last millennia is unchanged in TN. Modernity has a different set of challenges – subaltern resurgence, eurocentric dogmas (communism, socialism) make governance very tough.
It is not easy to become one of the Top 4 of India (Maha, Guj, Kar) without bipartisan commitment to industry and urbanisation. The Dravidian plank is a concordat – every social group knows what they are getting out of it.
Addendum:
I also consider it a great Providence that the three former Leaders of TN – Kamaraj, Karuna and MGR did not complete middle school or just high school. They were blessed with a earthy no-nonsense intelligence that allowed for a great foresight.
When I look at the Gangetic leaders of the same period, Lohia went to Germany, JP went to Wisconsin and Jyoti Basu went to London for their studies!!
The middle caste revolution was truly one of applied praxis rather than the upper caste mode of endless knowledge acquisition.
Being a tamil, don’t use words like providence. You will be called out here as a crypto xian. 🙂
Wait , aren’t Tamils that already? 😉
#ugra,
it is a middle caste hegemonic force that has controlled both UCs and Dalit resurgence from spinning out of control.
yes, this is dravidianism.
for some reason, this has not taken deep roots in karnataka, as probably one of the middle castes- Lingayats have an identity problem. are they shudras? or protestant brahmins led mid caste groups?
in kerala since the middle castes- ezvas and nairs control the hindu narrative.
brown@
Afaik the aradhyas claim to be “Protestant” Brahmins. The other jangamas don’t. One reason might be lingayats at least historically didn’t care much about getting higher ritual status from Brahmins. All the milestone rituals were conducted by jangamas + dasa aoha (community dining) meant a fairly cohesive but largely insular community. This was true of north KA. But these days things are changing as more lingayats are moving to urban areas.
Regardless the friction and competition between Bs and farming castes is endemic throughout IN, both north and south. In KL, I believe the caste conflict shows up as party conflict between communist ezhavas and rss/nairs. Ofc this is complicated by presence of large percentage of Ms and Cs.
Death Squads killing civilians=War Crimes
All the countries that participated in the Afgan War would be accessories. i.e. UK, Canada, Australia, NZ etc
Nothing is going to happen,no one will be held accountable*. As they say in Sri Lanka, “The goods are of the Chief, and the Laws are of the Chied”. Baduth Hamu ge,nithyath hamu ge.
*The US, UK and Canada will meanwhile accuse small countries of war crimes and act as judge and jury.
Excerpts
At least 452 civilians were killed in 107 raids. This number is almost certainly an undercount.
The Afghan soldiers weren’t alone on the raids; U.S. special operations forces soldiers working with the C.I.A. often joined them.
A troubling number of raids appear to have relied on faulty intelligence by the C.I.A
Military planners baked potential “collateral damage” into the pre-raid calculus — how many women/children/noncombatants were at risk if the raid went awry,
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/detailed-report-exposes-cia-backed-zero-units-afghanistan
Also read the investigating authors life story
https://www.propublica.org/article/afghanistan-night-raids-zero-units-lynzy-billing
South Indian Brahmin groups seem to have a higher chance of having light eyes than other groups…
I’m not even one so I’m not one to be biased btw just an observation because even random people seem to have it and I don’t go looking for the light eyed types either.
https://www.dawn.com/news/1731742/how-the-indus-valley-fed-islams-golden-age
🤮
Its heartening to see that its not just the less-Hindu ethnicities of the subcontinent who are facing an identity crisis. There are now less-muslim ethnicities who are trying to link themselves with Arabia. 😂😂😂
@Saurav
> Bro, my folks brought the CAA. Rest assured i understand it totally. Though i oppose it fully, but not for the reasons widely touted about. What you are talking about ‘disenfranchising illegal muslim immigrants’ is NRC and not CAA.
Since your folks brought the CAA, you should know about the CAA-NRC-NPR combo. Chronology Samajye. Listen to Amit Shah.
> What i want to point out that the BJP and the larger Hindutva movement does not even consider Tamil Hindus in their consideration within the ambit of such useless bill. That shows them their position.
Who brings a legislation to slyly slight a specific demographic – this is politics, not a middle school playground. Even if BJP really wants to slight Tamil Hindus they would come out and say so, the way they do when their legislation is specifically targeting Muslims (see Amit Shah Chronology, Yogi 80/20). And what does BJP gain by slighting Tamils – will BJP vote share in UP increase just because BJP showed the uppity Tamils their place.
I will take your Tamil slight theory seriously if SL Tamil Hindus were the only group excluded. But Bhutan, Tibet and Myanmar are also excluded – Hindus in Bhutan are actually a persecuted group. Same with Tibetan Buddhists. So this is not some Dharmic minority saviour act, it’s just a no-vote-for-muslim-fence-jumpers act.
Stalin is just playing to the gallery – we know India doesn’t care about poor Hindus from the neighborhood, doesn’t matter if they are SL Hindus, PB/Sindhi hindus from Pak or Bengali hindus from BD.
> No one gives a damn about TN separatism or exceptionalism.
You seem to give a damn. TN people don’t and I was contextualizing about it only with brown, bhumiputra in this thread.
> Nor will the DMK be a part of the centre, or Modi allow it. There will be cold peace b/w them.
There is cold peace already if you haven’t noticed. DMK have stopped directly attacking natl BJP leadership and ED/CBI are nowhere to be seen in TN (DMK family have done plenty in 2 years to attract ED).
I think it’s all about the numbers. For LS 2024, to make up for any shortfall in RJ, BH, MP, KA, HP etc, BJP will take along anybody, including DMK (they have done it before), same way they have taken along Akalis before and other separatist parties of yore from NE. Neither DMK nor BJP are a principled lot.
Again the bill was not brought in to slight Tamil Hindus. Why do u folks, always think that you are so important?
The point is that Tamil Hindus are so immaterial in Hindutva calculation that EVEN the Bengalis sort of pip them from the bottom. That the BJP could have included Tamil Hindus in this useless bill, (which i am pretty sure would not be implemented anyway), and it would not have mattered, but still didn’t.
Plus on NRC, you seem to put a lot of weight on Amit Shah’s words. Let me present you someone, who’s words sort of weigh tad bit heavily than Shah.
https://indianexpress.com/article/india/pm-narendra-modi-citizenship-amendment-law-nrc-bjp-campaign-delhi-6179940/
‘PM Narendra Modi: No talk of NRC at all, lies being spread about detention centres’
When people talk about the cultural clash between BIMARU India and Non-BIMARU India they often overlook a surprising aspect of Hindi pop culture. Since Hindi is the most widely spoken language in India, outsiders automatically assume that Hindi speaking states form the core cultural group of India. This is a reasonable assumption since the culture associated with a particular language is usually produced by the native speakers of that language. However, Hindi is a striking exception to this rule. If you look at the famous actors, directors, or playback singers of Bollywood, it’s easy to see that almost all of them are Punjabis, Urdu speaking Muslims, Bengalis, Maharashtrians or South Indians. Indian pop culture is essentially the culture of Non-BIMARU states, and BIMARU India, despite having all the native speakers, is almost invisible even in the Hindi cultural sphere.
Why does this happen ? Why can’t BIMARU India compete with the states where Hindi is spoken as a second or third language ?
IMD is setting Doppler Weather radar network.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/entire-india-to-be-covered-under-doppler-weather-radar-network-for-better-forecast-by-2025/articleshow/97011410.cms?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=TOIDesktop
Long overdue. I think ISRO weather forecasting just does not provide the granularity or frequency to be of any practical use for most people. Not sure why this was not prioritized before. Limited money for tech projects in IN further gets wasted on lot of pet white elephant projects.
https://tribune.com.pk/epaper/news/Karachi/2023-01-13/MTdlYTNkZDVmZGU5ZjZiMjAzMzNhN2VlNGUzMWE4YzkucG5n
PK columnist rueful that Modi has made them irrelevant.
I remember congress+intellectuals scaring us that IN will become like Hindu PK😄 if we voted for Hindu taliban aka bjp.
Justin Trudeau wishing a hearty Thai Pongal!
https://twitter.com/JustinTrudeau/status/1614626295090151430
Fuck this blackface wearing clown, he backed khalistani “Farmer Protests” and then went 1984 on Candian Truckers.
https://twitter.com/sreenivasanbr/status/1614607741355708419?s=46&t=jD2CUKvmHAWRgSRV5XhFfw
“ DMK’s efforts to de-Hinduize #Pongal and make it Samathuva Pongal will be roundly defeated like how it’s attempt to change the Hindu Tamil New Year from 14th April to Pongal day has been defeated. Pongal was, is and will be a Hindu Festival celebreated by Tamils. “
Why in the 88 percent hindu land , a Hindu festival being de – Hinduized
Interesting. 🤔
Pognal is not “De-hinduized”, its being Secularied and its a good thing. We get to culturally assimilate Xtians&Muslims into our culture that way. This is not any different from Christmas in the west being turned into a “Secular” holiday that even non-chrsitians&atheists celebrate.
Here’s a fun thought, wouldn’t it be neat if Muslim Biharis celebrated Holi? Well, we got our Muslims celebrate Tamil Makar Sankranti.
You do not need to fight me or justify anything. Just accept it. It’s not like we can change anything. The minimum one expects is to alteast be truthful to the ground realities.
Plus it’s not like regions which were erstwhile hindu areas haven’t converted to non Hindu areas.
“ wouldn’t it be neat if Muslim Biharis celebrated Holi? Well, we got our Muslims celebrate Tamil Makar Sankranti.”
Punjabi Muslims used to celebrate Basant, look how well that is going.
Non-Hindus are free to participate in Hindu festivals, but at a basic level of courtesy they need to acknowledge that it is a Hindu festival.
If their religion prohibits them from participating in Hindu festivals that is their problem.
It doesn’t follow that we should secularize our festivals
“This is not any different from Christmas in the west being turned into a “Secular” holiday that even non-chrsitians&atheists celebrate.”
No. This is like Germans saying Weihnachten (German Christmas Eve) is a secular German festival rather than Christian.
Major festivals like Diwali are already quite secular in India.
Fuck secular festivals, this is capitalist propaganda. No compromise. Ek dhnag ki cheez hai Hinduism mein, woh bhi hagg do… I will trade 100 Christmas for 1 Chhath or Ganesh Chaturthi. I don’t want gora or mulla people in my festivals, just give me the old school deal. These stupid ideas always come from folks who don’t give even 11 rupay to a temple and have to think fifty times about touching feet of the temple Pandit ji or first gen working Indian women in 20s-30s-40s who consider festivals as chores. Thankfully my milieu is free of this disease so far.
I think similarly about weddings too. Dowry is almost dead which is excellent. But I hate the court marriages or muted ceremonies Indians do in the US and sometimes even in India. I have seen such lame Hindu weddings in the past five years… Depressing. Spend atleast some money on weddings folks, have fun with friends and family, life is short. Chindi-pana is not enlightenment.
My UP school friends are doing ‘destination’ weddings in Coimbatore, Mysore, Kerala, …
Lamest ceremonies I have ever seen, no one knows what the fuck is going on, feels like some college party. Some Madraasi pandit ji who is too nice to shout at the North Indian late-arrival/drunk/giggling dulha and enforce muhurat, a dulhan who is more interested in Instagram. Wannabe parents who want to ape Bollywood. NO old people to help Pandit ji with their jati-varna-regional customs, no folk songs, no dholak, no harmonium… Wannabe Chutiyapa
I would always happily pay for solid old school ceremonies over any Arya Samaji or ‘Bollywood-style’ nonsense.