https://twitter.com/janatzaf/status/1064008024459829249?s=12
This cracked me up to no end.
On a serious note I tend to follow a fair bit of Twitterstan. It’s a lot more fun than Twitterdesh.
Twitterdesh is a bit scary since a lot of the Bollywood celebs have fled to Instagram and we’re left with a bunch of intellectuals constantly griping about Hinduism losing out to Islam.
Twitterstan happens to have a lot of Pakistan’s glamorous politicians; Bakhtawar Bhutto has a pretty fascinating account. What I haven’t fathomed yet is why haven’t the PPP & PML-N made a Grand Democratic Coalition to punch back against Imran & the Army.
I picked up this piece (via Razib’s twitter) on the New York Times on China’s unique rise.
I think Pakistan is a fairly advanced and democratic country compared to the rest of the Muslim world (which is a fairly low bar). However the strong pull of the Raj’s legacy & an Indian cultural orientation mitigate the harsher aspects of Islam.
I was quite vocal in the last podcast with Razib; I ranted a fair bit since I’ve been so angry about the Aasia Bibi situation.
I’m actually not so angry with Pakistanis back home but our Diaspora abroad who cower behind the veil of the Woke & Social Justice Warriors.
If we are all meant to constantly check our Privileges then what about the rights of the most under-privileged person there is, Aasia B.
This is why I find the Left at the moment to have betrayed the legacy of liberalism whatsoever. It’s fighting for what is expedient rather than what is right. It doesn’t mean the Right is any better but the apostolic mantle that the Left has shrouded itself in means that it must be held to the same standards as religious authority. The Death of Christianity as a pervasive moral code has left a huge moral vacuum in large sections of society.
Zach, I find that most liberals and democrats in the US are not post modernists and make some effort to be ideologically consistent. They are attacked by post modernists for this. Which is why many liberals and democrats don’t like post modernists.
This “privilege” stuff is inaccurate and immoral. Because it subtly implies that all of us are not potentially powerful, potentially wise, potentially sovereign (or divine in eastern philosophy) and potentially free. This European colonization of the mind with inferiority complex and a lack of self confidence is immoral, wrong and must be fought.
The English post modernists have learned nothing from their imperialist follies in Asia and Africa it appears. They are still back to their old dirty games however much they try to hide with sophistry.
In England, who is fighting for Asia Bibi? Among caucasians, Pakistanis, muslims, non muslim Asians, Africans?
Why did the UK deny her asylum request?
The Chinese world order cant come soon enough. It will be the final straw of liberalism. Once that’s gone the western liberals will finally come to their senses(or maybe not). I hope America progressively retracts into a shell. Its only when the USA is no more the guarantor of peace, only then it will drive some sense in their thick leftie skull.
“the USA is no more the guarantor of peace”
This has already happened. The US is 16% of global income and wealth and falling fast. Don’t most Americans and people around the world already know this?
Post modernists seem to merely be adding Asians to the oppressor list alongside ALL caucasians and doubling down. Post modernists no longer emphasize America as much since America is seen to be in terminal rapid decline. But their “philosophy” if you can call it that still works if ALL non muslim caucasians and Asians are grouped together as evil. Post modernists often consider Latin America to be caucasian too. Brazilians have become evil since electing Jair Bolsonaro.
What post modernists don’t bash India, China and Asia left and right?
Saurav, we need to dismantle the deep ideology (Buddhi Vijnayamaya Kosha) of post modernism. Can you write about this?
USA still has residual power, and it is still the World’s only super power. Its punch still has weight. It will take decades for USA to really fall off and China to be a militarily equivalent of USA.
Saurav, we could speak offline about this. I think you are exaggerating a little.
Ask your military friends about this.
High end military capacity is mostly unusable and mostly not relevant. China and India will soon have enough projection capability to engage in FID capacity competence institutional building. That is most of what matters.
Most of America’s power is soft power, moral power, intellectual power, mind space power, ideological power, cultural/spiritual power. And here America is stronger than ever.
Those whom the gods wish to destroy they first make mad! . However, I think china will face more problems than west or democracies. In democracies, technology will be shared I believe with the common folk. In china, I am not too sure how far will sharing of tech be allowed by govt. So every individual+tech in democracy is potentially still stronger than govt unwilling to share tech with own citizens.?
Zack,
I listened to that podcast and honestly it did verge on the Islamophobic at times. I understand your anger about the Aasia Bibi issue, but if you consider some of those comments again in the cold light of day, you will hopefully see that some of them were a bit over the top.
I found the Pakistani government’s reaction to the protestors and concessions to their demands shameful. The Supreme Court did the right thing. But to expect people in Pakistan to come out strongly on her side is unrealistic. Everyone wants to stay alive and taking a strong position against blasphemy is asking for trouble.
I am genuinely curious why you keep identifying with a country whose values you don’t seem to share? Islam is very important to the vast majority of Pakistanis and forms a major part of our identity. Even the most liberal of us don’t want our Prophet (peace be upon him) insulted. There was no need to repeat the nasty things that Aasia Bibi supposedly said about Hazrat Khadija and Hazrat Ayesha. Your point could have been made without those remarks.
Even the most liberal of us don’t want our Prophet (peace be upon him) insulted.
fuck your prophet.
Razib, I strongly defend your right to say this. And I believe that the actual historic Mohammed pbuh (versus the person Islamists claim he was) would also strongly defend your right to say this.
When the holy prophet pbuh was poisoned to death by a Jewess slave female who was testing him . . . he said not to punish her. The prophet pbuh died an extremely painful and difficult death. But he defended her right to test, question and poison him.
This is my understanding of Islam.
This said . . . your beef is with Islamist muslims and their stupid Islamist ideas. Would it be fair to say you have a far smaller beef with the historical holy prophet himself?
Why let Islamists define the historic Mohammed pbuh? Why let them define Islam?
We can have legitimately different perspectives on theology with authentic Islamic currents. We can freely discuss those. But at the same time why can’t we differentiate between Islamism and Islam?
This is not an academic issue. Every day there is a non trivial probability of Islamist Jihadis obtaining nuclear/biological/chemical weapons and using them on “fake” Islamic and non Islamic population centers [Most likely Russia, India, Europe, Israel Palestine, Iran, Iraq, Brazil, Australia, Canada, US, China, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand, Philippines, Nigeria, Turkey, Tunisia, Libya, Algeria, Afghanistan]. The actual probability of this is much higher than the general global public knows. Because of this, why cede the linguistics to the Islamists?
After the Islamist threat ebbs, after all muslims have free art and thought . . . we can stop worrying as much about linguistics.
i don’t care about the fucking prophet tbh. i just like to trigger bentwig 😉 also, the muslim balancing of honor of a religious person vs. the life of a real living human being is kind of asinine IMO. so i like to highlight it.
this is one reason i dislike muslims who analogize laws in europe against holocaust denial to laws around the prophet. the holocaust denial laws
1) i disagree with dislike too
2) but, they involve the murder of millions of people within the past century, not a 7th century prophet. so they are more substantive to me cuz the murder of millions of people is way more of a big deal than the honor of a prophet. though mileage varies…
I strongly denounce holocaust denial laws. So do most Jews I know. Everyone should have the right to say insane stupid things about the Holocaust. And we have the right to use better ideas to disagree with them.
“they involve the murder of millions of people within the past century,”
The political forces in the west which caused Holocaust had to be crushed and snuffed out militarily and they are lying under the surface . Holocaust denial is one of the giveaways of fascist and nazi persons in the west. That is why holocaust denial is a crime in many western countries. Just few days back a man shot a number of Jews in a US synagogue. For us of non western origin fascism and it’s close alliance with anti semitism is difficult to understand .
Wow! Really going to win friends and influence people with that attitude.
there are some friends i’d rather not have that’s for sure!
like the type who would temporize about someone being put in imprison for insulting a religious figure.
and i’ve influenced plenty ppl asshole. ppl have gone to grad school to study genetics cuz of me (they told me). what have you done aside from make ppl laugh inadvertently.
No need to get personal. I’m not going to sink to your level.
Kabir, did Asia Bibi criticize Khadija and Aisha? I thought she was acquitted of all charges?
Many of Islam’s greatest murshids and spiritual leaders have made a strong Islamic case for free art and thought. There is nothing Islamic about what is happening to Asia Bibi.
“Islam is very important to the vast majority of Pakistanis and forms a major part of our identity”
This is a very good thing. This is why Pakistanis have to fight for Asia Bibi. Islam is also very important for Bahai and Hindus who draw inspiration from great Islamic currents and masters.
“Even the most liberal of us don’t want our Prophet (peace be upon him) insulted.”
How has he been insulted by Asia Bibi? She should feel free to ask questions about him and the rest of us should be free to answer her questions. This brings honor to the prophet pbuh. Treating Asia Bibi in any way other than the greatest love and respect is dishonoring the holy prophet pbuh.
BTW, many muslims and nonmuslims have asked why the holy prophet married Khadija and Aisha. They are curious to know.
“But to expect people in Pakistan to come out strongly on her side is unrealistic. Everyone wants to stay alive and taking a strong position against blasphemy is asking for trouble.”
We understand that Pakistanis in Pakistan don’t have freedom of speech and are afraid of sharing what they really think. This is “WHY” we are fighting for Pakistanis and all muslims.
Zach gets why Pakistanis can’t share their true feelings. Zach is asking for muslims who live in England to share their true feelings in public. What is wrong with that?
“I am genuinely curious why you keep identifying with a country whose values you don’t seem to share? ”
This is deeply unfair. Pakistan at her best is as Jinnah envisioned her in 1947. This Pakistan–the liberal plural muslims of India–is what Zach identifies with.
Pakistan at her best shares the values and goodness of India at her best. There is no reason that pre 1947 Pakistani values cannot represent Pakistan today. Karachi and many other Pakistani cities were great global leaders in love, light, inspiration, pluralism, diversity, liberty and freedom.
Zach perfectly embodies Pakistani values as Pakistan should be, as Jinnah intended.
Pakistan Zindabad!
Disrespecting the Holy Prophet (pbuh) or any of his wives is not acceptable. If Aasia Bibi really said nasty things about Hazrat Ayesha or Hazrat Khadija, she did something very bad. Not that she should have faced death for it, but I am not going to say that what she did was right. Remarks are made in the heat of the moment, but those remarks don’t need to be repeated.
I was asking Zack a question about why he identifies as Pakistani . I didn’t need you to respond to it or to give me lectures about my own country. You do not understand Pakistani society. “Love”, “light” and other things that are dear to you (for all that they are meaningless new-agey terms) are much less important than Islam to most Pakistanis.
Perhaps the Muslims who live in England have complicated feelings about the whole issue?
Pakistan is my partial ethnic origin. It’s reasonably I would have some ties into it.
Pakistan has to understand that the modern world is built on certain values and if Pakistanis want acceptance by the wider world they’re going to have abide by it.
That’s your right, but clearly the values of Pakistanis mean very little to you. Even non-Muslim Pakistanis show the utmost respect for Islam.
“Even non-Muslim Pakistanis show the utmost respect for Islam.”
Because they get killed if they don’t.
Some people are just decent and respectful of all religions. Didn’t know that was such a difficult concept to understand.
You don’t have to believe in something or accept it as true to respect other people who may do so.
not acceptable? what you gonna do it about it?
“If Aasia Bibi really said nasty things about Hazrat Ayesha or Hazrat Khadija, she did something very bad.”
You’re doing a great job of proving Zack right about everything he said.
You missed the part where I said she didn’t deserve a death sentence. And that the Supreme Court did the right thing by acquitting her.
Don’t try to be too smart.
Issues like Asia bibi, Salman Rushdie, Taslima immediately separate fake from real.
Arent desert cultooz allowed 4? How come ur proph had like 10 or sth… anyway how many were his cousins or nieces or sth??
Will give u a lollipop if u impress me with ur answer barki
A person’s life is worth more than anyone’s honour.
something I am ashamed to say some members even of my family do not understand. This deserves 7.7 billion points, one for every life on earth!. Respect you for saying the obvious, but people from this part of the world dont understand this. This pains me a lot.
a single human life is worth more than the honor of a thousand religions. a million religions. a single human life is more precious beyond comprehension in comparison to the gods of humanity.
Hear hear.
Soap box time.