70 thoughts on “Open Thread – Brown Pundits”

  1. Its desi vs desi. Harmit Dhillon is representing James Damore in his employment discrimination lawsuit against Sundar Pichai run Google.

    1. I don’t expect much success from the plaintiffs, but perhaps the publicity will shift the discourse in a better direction.

      I have been very disappointed with the shrieking and anathematizing about Damore that has been coming from the Left…honestly what he wrote was fairly banal.

      1. I will add that one of my friends who had been a party-line SJW (he was obsessed about BLM in particular) abandoned the cause wholesale after he saw the appalling state of Lefty discourse around Damore.

        There is hope after all…

  2. GNXP seems to be still dead. I am posting this here, FYI


    “Genetic analysis of ancient teeth and bones suggests Native Americans largely descend from a vanished group called the Ancient Paleo-Siberians. A skeleton in Siberia nearly 10,000 years old has yielded DNA that reveals a striking kinship to living Native Americans, scientists reported on Wednesday. The finding, published in the journal Nature, provides an important new clue to the migrations that first brought people to the Americas.”

    “In terms of peopling of the Americas, we have found close to the missing link,” said Eske Willerslev, a geneticist at the University of Copenhagen and a co-author of the new paper. “It’s not the direct ancestor, but it’s extremely close.”

    * * *

    But in a separate study, a team headed by Stephan Schiffels of the Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History in Germany has come to a different conclusion. That team’s analysis, also published Wednesday in Nature, traces the ancestry of NaDene speakers to an enigmatic people called the Paleo-Eskimos.

  3. Since things got a bit heated up in the Bangladesh post.

    To lighten the mood, a somewhat (satirical) article on West Bengal


    “This might, in fact, be the beginning of the end of the Bengali’s most prized character trait—an annoyingly smug sense of exceptionalism.”

    “.Once, Bengalis proudly said what Bengal thinks today, India thinks tomorrow. After this election, a chastened Bengali is wondering if now what Bengal thinks today is what India already thought yesterday. Is ekla chalo re Bengal following the herd?”

    1. If it means the end of Amartya Sen types, I’m all for the end of “Bengali Exceptionalism.”

      What I do hope we’ll see someday is the RISE of the Cowbelt. We’ve been dormant for so long…but we’ve got the numbers. The TamBrahms and Bhadraloks have had their day, soon we will win our place in the sun!

      1. The cow belt has always had political power in post independent india, if anything it feels like its cultural importance is declining. The more pan-indian hindi becomes, the less valuable gangetic authenticity in hindi cultural output will be. I don’t see the bhadralok in as steep decline, its just that they are achieving big things outside of bengal. They’ve long had their outpost in delhi, and now they have a massive presence in bangalore, with the major advantage of not being disliked by the natives.

  4. Is there a problem with gnxp.com? I keep getting a message that the site is under attack. Message is :

    The WP install on this platform seems to just not work. Am looking at other options to continue this weblog.

    Very keen on keeping this domain and platform though. So another CMS/blog software.

    It looks like there was a denial of service attack. Someone is trying to take this site down. It’ll be back.

    1. This stuff happens all the time, it just doesn’t get any press coverage because it doesn’t fit the anti-BJP narrative…reality is that none of India’s many groups are heroes or villains.

      1. “This stuff happens all the time, it just doesn’t get press”.

        It really doesn’t. Professional organizations who track these incidents all agree that virtually every incident of communal violence in India involves Hindu aggression against Muslims (and sometimes Christians/Dalits).

        The parallels between hard-line Islamists and the Hindu-right here are amusing. Both do their best to ignore the avalanche of cases where their group is shown to be consistently brutalizing minorities. However, once in a blue-moon when its their group that is on the defensive, they wet-themselves in excitement, sharing the articles as they lament how, “this is the real dynamic, its just being covered by everyone”.

        1. Right, I’ve seen the information on “hate crimes” from said “professional organizations” (eg Indiaspend), they cull their data from English-speaking media, which is selective and nonexhaustive in its reporting. You can go to the vernacular press and see for yourself the crimes that don’t get covered. Ranganathan and SG Sharma famously did this, but I’m sure you would dismiss them as “Right-wing trolls.” Readers can look at their sources and decide for themselves.


          (I actually agree with you that a supermajority of *communal events* will be Hindu-instigated, but that’s a function of India being Hindu-majority. That doesn’t mean Muslims are perfect hapless victims.)

          1. 1.) I mean organizations like Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, the UN, American State Department, and various authors and professors in India.

            2.) I read through your link anyway, and its typical far-right conspiracy nonsense (similar to Breitbart or Glen Beck here in America). Heavy on accusations, light on facts. Swaraj will accuse some outlet of misrepresenting or ignoring a story, and its only proof will be a link to anonymous, unsourced information from another Swaraj article. A couple times it actually linked to a twitter thread from some far-right Indian who himself makes unsourced claims about biases.

            I’m glad you linked this article however, as its a microcosm of the Hindu-right. Bullshit stacked on top of bullshit, with the stack reaching so high the shit at the top actually starts to believe there must be something substantive under it all.

          2. I’m not intending to persuade you. I trust that readers can look through the articles (and links therein) and decide for themselves on how persuasive it is.

            Incidentally, I site-searched several of the specific incidents it referred to in its charts (which refer to external news sites, not Swarajya itself as you claim) and they check out. Sorry.

            ” A couple times it actually linked to a twitter thread from some far-right Indian who himself makes unsourced claims about biases.”

            The thing is, we can read the thread and see that you are lying. Ranganathan posts links to source material throughout his thread.


            “Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, the UN, American State Department, and various authors and professors in India.”

            You’ll have to be more specific, meaning you’ll have to describe what claims are made, and what methodology supports them. I’m not aware that anybody has good data on the matter of crime in India (due to size, underpolicing, and underreporting), let alone data good enough to make the strong claim that *nearly all* communal incidents are Hindu-instigated.

        2. @INDTHINGS
          I would be even more cautious. While any group including Muslims in India are capable of initiating violence, this whole reporting sounds suspect. Call me cynical but I have encountered several exaggerated to completely fake news by these usual suspects. Quick googling shows it is only Swarajya and similar single-purpose “boutique” outlets carrying this news (and usual folks magnifying it). No standard legacy media, including those overtly pro-BJP is carrying this. The journalist involved is a notorious specialist in digging out these and conflating routine incidents into sectarian ones (have commented in detail reg. one of her earlier Delhi reports).

          Besides the fact that it seems very strange a cowed down UP minority group will create a confrontation on a completely baseless issue (as per this report), the clincher was them saying they weren’t afraid of Modi-Yogi and as icing, calling Hindus “kaffirs” (in case folks missed any of their previous incitements). Only thing missing was some full-throated sloganeering in favor of Triple Talaq and Musim Personal Law ??

          Sorry for my amusement (and I allow there is a tiny chance something like this has happened), but all this sounds suspiciously close to what an RSS guy would want a Muslim mob to do. I listened to her video and audio and they are not really convincing, sorry. Open to correction if new facts emerge.

    1. I was sympathetic to her through most of the piece and wondering why she is conflating criticism of Hindutva, a self-consciously extremist RW political ideology, as criticism of the spiritual philosophies of Hinduism (and more reason to universalise my coinage of “Savarkarism”, to avoid such confusions).

      Then I came to part where she is a member of HAF, an org co-ideological with RSS/HSS. Then I understood her sensitivity to criticism of Savarkarism (unlike say a member of https://www.sadhana.org ), but many reading the piece will not. And sadly, many good, regular Hindus in the US will be judged for the extremism and propaganda of a tiny few.

      1. The funny things is that on Twitter, the Hindutva crowd thinks she is a progressive squish and is attacking her from exactly the opposite end as you.

        1. Change your tweeters!
          Sometimes the single weirdo with the bad tone can be right #AugustLandmesser

          1. Actually I wasn’t following any of them, I just went to her Twitter feed and saw 3 bhakts attacking her. I tried to offer her encouragement.

    2. Pretty skeptical of the article as well.

      Personally I have faced more issues with Islamophobia (still fairly rare) in than I have from Hinduphobia.

      Most Americans DGAF about Hinduism, while there is significant anti-Muslim sentiment in the country post 9/11.

      Many MENA people are fairly white presenting, and I think are thus spared from the bulk of the bigotry.

      The racialized Muslim in the American psyche, is the Hijabi woman, or a brown guy with Bin Laden’s skin tone and a beard (many Indian Hindus, and esp. Sikhs probably fit the bill)

      I also more recently have had people reference street shitting and rape, is dumb jokes.

      Also to keep things in perspective don’t generally feel unsafe just for being Muslim-presenting.

      1. Yeah, I’ve gotten many more Islamophobic comments than anti-Hindu comments directed at me tbh.

        That might change given the pro-Islam and anti-Hindu milieu that our media is trying to promote!

        1. Which media is promoting a “pro-Islam and anti-Hindu milieu”? Criticism of Hindutva is not criticism of Hinduism. Just as criticism of Islamic fundamentalism is not criticism of Islam itself.

          Islamophobia is a much bigger problem in the West than any anti-Hindu feeling. Muslims are associated with terror and there is a “Muslim ban” etc. Indians on the other hand are considered a model minority and stereotyped as IT guys.

          In India, Muslims are otherized and scapegoated for all sorts of things. It would be ridiculous to call India an “anti-Hindu” country.

          1. Kabir,

            Agreed, most countries with a Muslim minority population tend to dislike their Muslim minority population.

  5. Hazara-Shia Community Targeted Yet Again. 2 Killed In Ziarat Blast


    “As the country celebrated Eid, violence against the persecuted Hazara community continued as usual. In yet another instance of targeted killing of the Shia-Hazaras, two people belonging to the community were killed in a blast targeting their vehicle in the Ziarat district of Balochistan on Friday.”

  6. New Article

    Pakistan’s Pashtun Crackdown Echoes Bangladesh War


    and check this out:

    EXACTLY one Punjabi, one Sindhi, one Pashtun and one Hunza military officer were supposedly riding in a vehicle and got “killed” in a bomb blast, of course to be blamed on the PTM.


    The western media have swallowed the story line, hook and sinker

    “Pakistan says roadside bomb kills officers, soldier”


    “A roadside bomb targeting a security vehicle killed three army officers and an enlisted soldier in a troubled northwestern district bordering Afghanistan on Friday, the military said.”

    The WP story conveniently mentions the earlier alleged “attack” on the a military post that lead to the arrest of Wazir and Dawar.

  7. https://sayhoon.com/english/world-4985

    Pakistani forces fire unarmed PTM’s supporters in sheer frustration: Afridi

    “”They killed people. They unleashed terror in the Pashtun region. They imposed curfew. They restricted public’s movements. Nobody is allowed to move outside their houses. This is the repetition of Babarra of 1948 in Charsadda,” he said.”

    1. What is your obsession with events in Pakistan? You keep posting them when clearly noone is interested in discussing them.

      Not that I am trying to defend the army’s actions against protestors. I just find your inordinate interest in negative events in Pakistan interesting.

      1. “What is your obsession with events in Pakistan?”

        These are the last two. Then I will be taking some time off.

        Former Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari arrested


        MQM founder Altaf Hussain arrested in London over incendiary 2016 speech

        Comment: It seems anti military establishment figures are being arrested around the world. What is cooking?

  8. I see that some users like “INDTHINGS” bring up the topic of aryan invasion too often to justify the violence perpetrated by the “pieceful religion”. If aryan invasion was true, why did they chose to leave some Dravidians alone and why did dravidians, Aryans and natives mix until certain point of the history and then they decided to enforce the explicit caste divisions?

    Another question regarding the same topic is, who are the toda and kota tribes of Tamil nadu? Why do they appear different from their peer tribes, are toda people the original dravidians?

    1. . If aryan invasion was true, why did they chose to leave some Dravidians alone and why did dravidians, Aryans and natives mix until certain point of the history and then they decided to enforce the explicit caste divisions?

      so dumb it takes my breath away.

        1. master? how did you know i was r1a1a-z93! 😉

          the spaniards killed or cause a lot of death in the new world. but around 50% of the genes . in the new world south of the rio grande are indigenous. and languages like maya and quechua persist, as long as many cultural forms that predates the spaniards (mexican cuisine is a synthesis of iberian stuff with native traditions).

          so it isn’t surprising that non-aryan cultures persisted, even in the fact of marginalization. there are plenty of instances ike that.

          1. Shreshta Arya,
            Vandanam! You didn’t answer the part, “Aryans and natives mixed until certain point of the history and then suddenly they decided to enforce the explicit caste divisions?” Did this happen with the natives and spaniards too?

            I am a complete newbie to this area and I would like to keep an open mind with a healthy suspicion of ideas that are floating around me.

          2. “master? how did you know i was r1a1a-z93!”

            Just wondering, is this constant reference to R1a haplogroup really just a joke, or subconsciously you actually think of yourself as Brahmin/Aryan.

            As always, trying to get into your head 🙂

          3. Lol with Scorpion Eater: I’m pretty sure Mr. Razib Khan identifies (most probably in jest) more with the Kshatriya and the archaic Rajanya side of the Aryan equation than the Brahmin side. I think I have successfully got into this part of his head by observing some of his comments here before and also some tweets (of course all made in jest most likely, sometimes also involving jokingly faulting Brahmins because of their caste-ancestors’ apparently wilful and deliberate destruction of the legacy of the All-Father, etc.)

    1. Modi is a dumbass. Running the Indian economy is far more complex than running a streetside chai stand.

    2. @H.M.

      “Well this is depressing. Seems that India’s growth since 2011 has been highly overestimated.”

      This is not news. Just scroll back through an earlier exchange in the post Indian election thread. The only news is that one more prominent economist (the former chief economic advisor to the government) has joined the chorus.

  9. “Aryans and natives mixed until certain point of the history and then suddenly they decided to enforce the explicit caste divisions?”

    No, this is not dumb. Sudden onset of endogamy is mysterious. What happened? Did people just get spooked and stopped mixing?

  10. Razib: I am posting this here because GNXP is still down.

    A newborn was left to die 26 years ago. A mother’s arrest has led to baffling new questions.
    By Kyle Swenson
    The Washington Post
    June 10, 2019

    … on March 25, 1993, a newborn boy was found dead in a trash bag on a nearby muddy country road. How the child — who the coroner determined was alive at birth — tore so deeply at the community that volunteers donated money for the burial and the tombstone. How the community named the boy Geauga’s Child after the county where he was discovered. …

    Despite decades of investigation, police failed to not only identify the child, but understand who had left him behind. …
    Thursday, Geauga County Sheriff Scott Hildenbrand announced the child’s mother had been identified using genealogical research. The woman, Gail Eastwood-Ritchey, 49, is a married mother of three from the Cleveland suburbs. She pleaded not guilty Monday to charges of aggravated murder and murder and remains in custody. Hildenbrand told reporters the suspect has admitted to abandoning the child. “Her reaction was that she had not even thought about this until we brought it up,” Hildenbrand said, according to WEWS. “She always referred to the baby as ‘it.’ She really had no emotions as far as that’s concerned.” …

    As Hildenbrand detailed at last week’s news conference, the break in the case came in 2018, when headlines began blaring news about how forensic genealogy was being used to crack long-cold cases. Using a DNA sample collected from the child, investigators began to piece together familial connections. “A family tree was produced consisting of over 1,400 people in an effort to identify the parents of Geauga’s Child,” Hildenbrand said. “These people were from around the world, in different countries, when they started. They were narrowed down by their DNA that they had previously submitted voluntarily to an online database. With their permission, we were able to compare their DNA to one another and to Geauga’s Child.” Eventually in late 2018, the matches led to Eastwood-Ritchey. Two weeks ago, her DNA sample was matched with the dead child’s sample.
    Investigators learned that Eastwood-Ritchey had been married and raised three now-adult children. The DNA testing determined that Eastwood-Ritchey’s husband was the father of Geauga’s Child. …

    She also told investigators that she had committed a similar crime with another baby in 1991, police said. Hildenbrand told reporters authorities are investigating the claim, but have yet to find any remains.

  11. This item is not GNXP related, any of you can jump in.

    My wife and I have scheduled a tour of India in November. Neither of us has any connection to India or South Asia, nor have we travelled there.

    We would like recommendations for reading on Indian history and culture. In the past I have read:

    John Keay “India: A History”

    Lawrence James “Raj: The Making And Unmaking Of British India”

    Wendy Doniger “The Hindus: An Alternative History”

    I can’t say I was wowed by any of them.

    Your thoughts?

    1. Where in India are you going? I would have the phone numbers of many different Indians that you can call if you get in an unexpected jam. Fortunately you already have access to scores of regular BP readers. 🙂

      If you had to read books I would read these two books by Rev Bill McDonald, an old American reverend Veteren who chronicles his first few trips to India (one being in 2004.) He is the nicest guy and a warrior:

      India is unique and far more diverse than most of the world’s people can comprehend. A veritable United Nations in one country. Every type of person lives in India.

  12. https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/terror-attack-in-jks-anantnag-1-crpf-jawan-martyred-5-injured/articleshow/69757747.cms?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=TOIMobile

    “Five CRPF men martyred in terror strike at busy Anantnag roa ..

    Though Al-Umar Mujahideen, a defunct terror group, has claim ..
    officials, however, said that it was a handiwork of Jaish-e- e-Muhammed. ”


    “AuM has been funded and supported by the ISI. It also secures substantial assistance from the PoK government based in Muzaffarabad. ”


    “What PM Imran Khan wrote to PM Narendra Modi”

    “Pakistan, Imran wrote, wished for peace in the South Asian region and that, alongside stability, were required for the states as well as the region to move forward, the report said.”

    Comment: Another piece gesture worthy of the Nobel piss prize.

    1. I always ROFL when I hear left-liberal camp issue dire warnings of India falling under a Fascist/Nazi regime.

      India is not Germany, and 2010s are not 1930s. Indians are far too much lazy, disorganized, sentimental fools, and anxious about Western world’s opinion of them to ever turn into a lethal efficient military state like Nazi Germany.

      At the very worst the unchecked rise of Hindu Right will result in lawlessness and street thuggery.

    2. Lol they’ve been saying this nonsense since 2014. Get some new material, dudes!

      1. In fact much before 2014 from the time BJP started making electoral gains, in fact by many Indian writers themselves , which is echoed by western writers , which is echoed by Indian writers again. Only two western writers who stood outside this charmed circle of leftist name calling were Konrad Elst and Mark Tully of BBC.

        People like Nancy Pelosi in the US politics easily fall for this kind of virtue signalling and hence dangerous for India

  13. The way i see it, the more “Hinduism” is conflated with “Hindtuva” , the sooner ,middle of the road Hindus have to choose one way or the other. There is no Gandhi like figure who has the spiritual/religious heft to counter Hindutva in India anymore.

    The inability of Liberals hindu types( Tharoor, Devdutt et all) to defend “Hinduism” will push whatever left of this motley crew of deracinated Hindus to either give up on the Hinduism (like N-Indian liberals) or convert to Hindutva. The only folks who make this whole “Hindutva is not Hinduism” argument (less and less convincingly , as years roll by ) are mostly South/East Indians

    This process in nearly complete in N-India. And will only accelerate in near future.

    1. Sauravji,

      I have been reading your perspectives for a while. I don’t understand what you mean by Hinduism or Hindutva. Can you clarify?

      Do you consider “Sarva Dharma Sama Bhaava Sarva Shresht” to be part of Hinduttva? Do you think Hinduttva are too militant in expressing this position?

      How do you relate the eastern framework or perspective or culture (or Hinduism or Hinduttva) with respect to:

    2. I definitely agree. We Hindi Belters are well into our metamorphosis through which we are orienting ourselves to our civilizational identities of Hindu, Hindawi, Indian. The BJP’s breakthroughs in Uttar Pradesh are the clearest evidence of this phenomenon.

      Ironically, Gujarat (not technically part of the Hindi Belt) is leading the charge!

      “There is no Gandhi like figure who has the spiritual/religious heft to counter Hindutva in India anymore.”

      Tbh if Gandhi existed today he would be a heterodox figure within the BJP. The leftist chattering classes wouldn’t be able to stomach how central Hinduism was to him…based on what “The Hindu” puts out, they can’t even stomach our festivals.

      1. Let me add some nuance to the debate here. While it is very obvious that Hindu nationalism is on the ascendant in India, it will be naive to ignore subtler currents here.

        Indians are something of sentimental fools, and instinctively root for underdogs. This is why we are not known as a hard state like Russia or Israel. If Hindu Right becomes too arrogant or too severe and cold hearted, there will be a reaction.

        The example in support of my argument is the anti-corruption protests spearheaded by social activist Anna Hazare in 2011 in Delhi. It was amazing how this old and frail Gandhian, who looks like a figure from a different era altogether, was able to rally hundreds of thousands of people with his call.

        Also, don’t forget that just 10 years ago, a Sikh PM fielded by a left-of-center party thoroughly defeated a Hindu hardliner candidate fielded by a Hindu nationalist party. People don’t change that much in 10 years.

        And despite whatever their true feelings about Gandhi are, RSS has never dared to criticize Gandhi openly. Just doesn’t work in India.

        So my take is that this swing towards Hindu Right won’t go beyond a limit.

        1. I think that’s a questionable way of looking at it. Modi has been a transformational figure, and he will shape Indian politics for decades to come. I think the “secularism with Hindutva characteristics” position that he inaugured will persist for decades (even after the BJP goes into opposition, which it will at some point), until that consensus starts to face strong challenges from both Right and Left.

        2. While i am all for nuance even i used to be in the same boat (Hindu nationalism is on the ascendant in India, it will be naive to ignore subtler currents here.), but i think something has changed this time around, and in a more fundamental level. In my village , when you have even dalits taking out large scale “Ram” processions , you know this is no momentary event.

          Anna Hazare was a joke and middle class phenomena, there is a reason why his so called protest didn’t register 10 kms outside Delhi. So was Advani, specially after Jinnah episode where i know of Hindu hardliners in my own family who didnt bother voting for BJP in 2009. In many ways he was seen as a Pseudo-hardliner (quite apt for someone who came up with the word pseudo-secularism ) 😛

          I agree that the pendulum will swing back to its resting stance, i guess that point will not be the same point of pre Modi (Manmohan years) era.

          1. I agree. I guess what will happen is that soft Hindutva will become the new normal. This will be the mean position of the pendulum.

            Comparisons with the fascist regimes of 20th century Europe are still ludicrous. Time and place is not same any more.

  14. Lol with Scorpion Eater: I’m pretty sure Mr. Razib Khan identifies (most probably in jest) more with the Kshatriya and the archaic Rajanya side of the Aryan equation than the Brahmin side.

    Let’s psychoanalyze him. I haven’t noted any adulatory comment about any warlord of history from him. (And being a history buff, he must have known about a lot of them). He isn’t particularly fascinated with the military history.

    OTOH, lot’s of references to his high IQ and how he has no patience for lesser mortals like us with mediocre IQ.

    Also, he displays an obsessive-compulsive fascination with religion even when he personally discards it from his life.

    Nah.. I will say he is a Brahmin, through and through. 🙂

    1. the sword & the ledger all the way! fuck the brahmins and their mind-tricks! brahminism is dravidianism at heart, the priests of the IVC smuggled their folkways into aryan culture.

      otoh, you make a fair point on my attention to detail when it comes to organized superstition. but it comes honestly, i’m from a line of ulems, including sufi notables, while my paternal grandmother’s father was a bengali brahmin by birth before he converted to a different superstition.

      1. the sword & the ledger all the way

        Ledger? I didn’t know there was a Baniya side to your personality too.

        And doesn’t Baniya castes’ cultural fountainhead lies in the highly mercantile culture of IVC? Not sure if your horse riding R1a forebearers will look kindly to such petty pursuits.

        Scion of the warriors of open steppe, taking to the profession of town dwellers!

        1. “An army marches on its stomach”

          the spear-hand rests atop the logistics.

          mind the ledgers so you have food to give you strength to smash the heads of superstition-mongers!

          1. Razib here is an interracial marriage statistic of Indian men in America for foreign born and US raised

            Its from the American Census Bureau which is little less biased than Asian nation which gets their statistics from multiple unverifiable sources, however some ethnic groups in America have too low of numbers to be considered a statistic like Pakistani people who are less than 500000 in census numbers.

            This is the statistic for US born newly weds


            As you see .248 of Indian men married white women

            .234 of Indian women married white men

            Also there is more Indian women on the study than Indian men and still the men married out more

            Please use the American Census Bureau as statistics and not a unverifiable site like Asian nation

            I posted the answer here because you closed the previous thread

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