128 thoughts on “Open Thread – Brown Pundits”

  1. It is interesting this diffusion of Aryan genes from the north to the south, from central Asia and Afghanistan, via today’s Pakistan and northern India, toward south and east, reflected in some comments in the Intra-subcontinental…. Afghanistan was the first on this road and the most impacted. I can follow this by studying the parallel spread of Aryan toponyms. I wander what would be the OIT theory about this ‘steppe’ diffusion? There must be some very interesting and exotic explanation considering that it is almost certain that white race originated in Vinca. What would be the opposite assertion if it exists at all?

    1. There is no such thing as “white race” and its origins in genetic terms. There are many origins to what Anglo Saxon’s label as the white race today and that label can not be applied retroactively. Your premise is wrong which means that you will never find what you are looking for.

  2. I keep coming across posts or articles about subcontinental men having trouble with dating in America, how much is this a thing?

    Granted, I was never in the American dating scene, but I’ve lived in major cities in continental Europe and South-East Asia and I didn’t even know of this until I read about this stuff online. Indian people I know seem to be doing ok with intercultural dating (provided they have a fluent common language with their s.o.), or am I just living in a bubble?

    I can understand that it’s hard in some areas (Bay Area, Seattle metro) due to supply-demand and other areas (Atlanta, Toronto) because of racism, but in major cities and mixed areas is it as much of an issue as it is made out to be?

    Yes, I get that online dating is harder for Indian men, but this is also true of non-white males in general. I’m more curious as to how things work offline – does asking out someone you already know from university or hobbies or work have a reduced chance of success depending on your ethnicity? Or is the overall pool of potential dates smaller because fewer are open to going out with you? What does ‘difficulty’ mean in this respect, I’m confused.

    Can some desi guy who studied at an American college explain these shenanigans to me?

    1. Why do you have this impression of Atlanta and Toronto being more racist than other places in NA? Just curious.

      I read of studies (too lazy to find them now, but Razib himself posted links many years ago) where preferences expressed on online dating sites revealed a clear racial hierarchy. The hierarchy itself was different for males and females though. Among females, Asians were apparently most desirable, whites in the middle, blacks last. Among males, I think blacks were high up in desirability (not sure if they were above whites) but Indians and Asians were at the bottom.

      Offhand observation: desi males in America have a mentality of focusing on academics and eventually going into an arranged marriage, so they don’t bother to groom themselves properly or acquire social skills the same way the average American male does. Those who do in my experience don’t have a problem in the dating market.

      1. “Why do you have this impression of Atlanta and Toronto being more racist than other places in NA? Just curious.”

        I knew some guys from GeorgiaTech and UToronto who tried dating in these cities, they told me they had multiple cases where women initially interested in them backed out upon figuring out they were Indian. Ergo the problem wasn’t with them personally, but more about what the friends of the women who were interested in them would think if they dated those guys. I doubt it was cultural misgivings, as the guys in question were well-spoken self-sufficient non-religious types.

        Some sort of group prestige thing based on the people they went out with, but I guess they may have just been hanging out with the wrong crowd. I haven’t been in that milieu so I can’t really explain it. Then again, those kids didn’t make a statistically significant sample size so I could be wrong…

  3. i think the dating issue crops up for non-americans. hasn’t been a major problem in my life tbh and i’m a typical looking brown dude. i think personality is a big issue. HM who comments can offer his own view, cuz he grew up in the USA but expressed some gripes now and then.

    p.s. i suspect that religion is a bigger hurdle than racism in places like the south.

    1. “I think personality is a big issue.”

      I have a female white american friend who exclusively dated indian/nepali men or indian looking Saudi men. Even she had the same observation.

      I was surprised to see so many Saudis students who would easily pass as a upper middle class vaishu Indians.

    2. It’s complicated. I think the “brown incel” meme is overstated, I know quite a few brown men who are in happy relationships with pretty ladies of all races. As you probably expect, my social circle is primarily constituted of physicians, it may be different for techies.

      On the other hand, I have never, EVER met a brown player. Or anyone close to that. I think that’s a pathway closed off to brown dudes unless you’re exceptional.

      Speaking only for myself, I have had more interest from women when I used an Anglicized nom de guerre and tried to present myself as vaguely Hispanic (not hard, since my Spanish is better than my Hindi, and Whites are provincial to a fault.)

      I don’t think there’s a Hindu/Muslim component to it. Many Whites assume that I am Muslim myself. Doesn’t help.

      1. really? I knew some. They were in top frats at big state schools and played sports their whole lives. They had the cliche “chad” existence and often came from a very progressive and wealthy S Asian households. They were rare, but I knew of them.

        I think that’s mostly because I grew up in NJ. There are so many browns that you get to see enough of even the right tail of the distribution.

        Yeah Hindu/Muslim, skin color, and sharp features BS doesn’t matter the way some online goons would assume it would. What always mattered for aesthetics was height, frame size, facial symmetry, jaw line, body fat, clear skin, and good teeth.

      2. H M Brough says
        On the other hand, I have never, EVER met a brown player. Or anyone close to that. I think that’s a pathway closed off to brown dudes unless you’re exceptional.

        I echo warlock, really ?

        The “brown” players I knew were almost black, including my first cousin and his nephew. Cousins player days are over, he is now in his 70’s. Both of them (and others) tall 5’11-6′, black (semi sharp features), suave, charming with a ready smile, and most women gravitate to them automatically.

        Even I, not really a player (have to work at it) but enough not to be ashamed. Short, 5’4”, fat and big belly, like a telly tubby. However, I make sure I tan/blacken myself during the summer when I hit the beach. The tan/black, and can be charming with a smile does help.

        The same works many factors more for slim, dark/black women of south indian origin.

      3. H M Brough says
        Speaking only for myself, I have had more interest from women when I used an Anglicized nom de guerre and tried to present myself as vaguely Hispanic (not hard, since my Spanish is better than my Hindi, and Whites are provincial to a fault.)

        What bullshit. I used to wear a sarong (batik) with multi colored shirts (as one of my girl friends said the slimy Puerto Rican look). If possible like to get away without wearing a shirt too, with big belly showing.

        Its the exotic, and confidence in yourself that matters, I think.

        Obviously I dont pay USD 20 for sarongs, more like USD 2

  4. Razib,

    Do you have any info on the antecedents of haplogroup R2a1 (other than what’s in Wikipeda)? Whether the lineage is from AASI or IVC or further afield?

    (I asked this in the previous Open Thread but it probably slipped under your radar.)

  5. Whether the lineage is from AASI or IVC or further afield?

    i think R & Q came to s. asia from the northwest. R2 probably is old.

    there are some who think some R came from se asia with aasi. i doubt that.

  6. I posted on the dating stuff a lot. Real life is easier for Browns than tinder. Just how it is, except for elite looks browns. Whereas average looks whites can still do well online

  7. But yes browns are on bottom with E Asians on looks hierarchy. A lot of it is accent, grooming, and lack of fitness. Also some of it is just smaller bone structure and height. But brown men as an aggregate have a lot of room to improve, plenty of it via low hanging fruit too.

    Those who grow up in America have far fewer issues but it is still harder for them than it is for blacks, whites, hispanics, and MENA of same income level.

    1. “But brown men as an aggregate have a lot of room to improve”

      Completely agree. Being from third world countries, we are yet to reach our full potential. I feel proud when I see My robust 6’2 cousin is the strongest man among his white colleagues.

  8. Until I started visiting online forums, I didn’t even know that brown guys are in the bottom. In Europe, I never had issues with white girls. Actually, the girls always made the first move as I was too lazy to do that. I’m also a very regular looking brown with 5’9 and a lanky body. 5’9 is an acceptable height as Mediterranean girls aren’t that tall, the German and nordic girls are much taller in comparison. My brown skin tone was a blessing when I first came to Europe in 2004, people found it exotic and beautiful, and I was treated as a celebrity in my school. I lived in a small town where the brown community was small back then. The second year of college was a year I will never forget; all my female classmates showed interest in me.
    Another Bengali close friend is also doing quite well with white girls, he’s even shorter than me, but he’s athletic and practices football.
    I personally never was serious dating white girls as my first choice always been Bengali girls, could be due to my strong attachment with Bengali culture, I read lots of Bengali books, for example.
    I think most Bangladeshis and Pakistanis would also not date white girls due to religious and cultural restrictions, so it’s Indians and Srilankans that are in dating sites most of the time, I guess.

    1. I mean it is objectively confirmed S Asians do the worst on online dating in the famous okcupid survey. Granted, the difference wasn’t that profound.

      Additionally, I like to use tinder as the mainstay for how phenotype is perceived as attractive. It is the most superficial. Read some of the reddit tinder experiments with E Asian men and Indian men. They get trashed. The elite tier still do worse but they do well enough that it isn’t noticeable (5000 vs. 15000 matches in a year is not a big deal). Your cousin at 6’2 who is strong also probably has a big frame. A big frame 6’2 guys is uncommon, like a couple percent of the population that size. So he has a massive advantage on that lone.

      Also, I and many S Asians have noted that being the only S Asian in a town or area is amazing. I did better with women in Houston Texas than I did in NJ. A lot of S Asians in both places but more in NJ. I did better in Stockholm and Oslo with girls than I did in the UK. Basically, where there are enough S Asians already and your exoticness goes away as an advantage and you are just seen as a pesky competitive group, you aren’t going to do as well.

      I have seen Bangladeshi, Pakistani, Sri Lankan, and Indian guys all date multiethnically quite a bit at my age. No one gives a shit about religion. That is all talk. Every wants that punani in their late teens and early 20s. Then maybe some people become halal, but that is also often faked in front of family.

      Now Muslim girls. It is different. They have stricter rules in the house even into 20s. Non Muslim S Asian girls get more freedom, so they sleep around more.

      Also, I remember reading that the STD rate was 4X higher in E Asian women compared to men in the 1990s. Additionally, one study reported it would take an additional 200,000 in income for an E Asian man to be on par with a White man in dating value.

      For how rich and successful S Asian and E Asian men are, they do pretty badly.

      The thing is the range I think is bigger for S Asian men. Most E Asian players I see do well with the Kpop fetish crowd or are the hyper elite unicorns, the Jeremy Lin types. S Asian guys at the bottom tier I think do even worse than E Asian guys. Middle they do the same. Elite tier S Asian guys (and no it isn’t about looking bollywoodoid, I notice Americans care way less about skin color and even “sharp features; it is more about good hygiene, good style, muscles, height, and social skills) do well even with the non fetish crowd (including all american sorostitute types). Even the relatively less elite tier but still solid tier.

      The key is S Asian guys have to lift. I want to write a guide one of these days for them on here. I went from from a 130lbs to 170lbs over the past 5 years. After the first 25lbs or so, it didn’t make a difference much with women. But I want S Asian guys to get that initial stage of noob gains at least.

      Also the Jungle Father just gave me some solid strength. At 170, hit a 315×15 set on deadlifts today and a 425 earlier this week (2.5x bodyweight). Got a nice 315 pause ATG squat too and a set of 250×12. Just missed a 250 pause bench though. S Asian guys need to do heavy strength training. That and good grooming. They really can get 80% of their max potential through that, as long as basic social skills are in check.

      Jai Shree Ameen

      1. warlock, this is solid advice. Further to what you’ve recommended, lifting, gaining strength and grooming can also enhance the attraction in an existing relationship.
        Wanted to make the same point about dating as a brown dude being better when there aren’t too many other browns around. I grew up around few browns, I never felt that certain types of women were off limits. Places like Boston or NJ are examples in my experience of the opposite. Ethnic whites are particularly hostile to brown dudes and approaching very attractive girls of that background is almost baiting a confrontation with dudes they roll with or who are pursuing them. Its bizarre. I suppose in highly educated circles these effects diminish, and I’ve seen nebbish indian guys from the homeland marry attractive latin and euro women they met in grad school. Speaking more about the nightlife/ dating app scene.

      2. “Your cousin at 6’2, who is strong also probably has a big frame.”

        Not sure if he has a big frame, he looks mesomorph and was quite thin during teenage years. My other cousin, who is 6′ and also mesomorph, is much weaker than me. I have a lean body yet I’m not sure if I belong to ectomorph cuz my chest is not flat, and my shoulders are not narrow at all, perhaps I’m in between ectomorph and mesomorph. I rarely go to the gym. Instead, I prefer reading books in my spare time. I’m a weak person ?, I always lose the arm wrestling to my 5’3 stocky built uncle, I’m 147lbs and my uncle is 150lbs, so not much difference in weight.

        “Basically, where there are enough S Asians already and your exoticness goes away as an advantage and you are just seen as a pesky competitive group, you aren’t going to do as well.”

        True. I can easily get white girls even now if I want, all I need is to hang out a bit more with locals, never tried dating sites as it wasn’t necessary for me. There’s a large brown community now and many are second generation teenagers. It seems mainly in large metropolis the situation is different. I think the educated girls do value the personality over anything, of course you also have to be as attractive as them aesthetically.

        “I have seen Bangladeshi, Pakistani, Sri Lankan, and Indian guys all date multiethnically quite a bit at my age. No one gives a shit about religion.”

        In continental Europe, There are Muslim Bengalis like me and my friend who had the advantages of being part of established families, we aren’t practicing Muslims for sure. But the quasi-religious working-class folks don’t have any interest or aim dating white girls. At best some of them spend a few bucks to have fun with east European hookers. Even my 6’2 cousin didn’t have any interest in white girls, he’s married now but dated a Bengali girl years ago. I think culturally attached Bengalis have more interest in Bengali girls over anything else.

        “The key is S Asian guys have to lift. I want to write a guide one of these days for them on here. I went from from a 130lbs to 170lbs over the past 5 years. After the first 25lbs or so, it didn’t make a difference much with women. But I want S Asian guys to get that initial stage of noob gains at least.”

        Would gladly read your guide. My chest looks somewhat large and bulky, so perhaps I can get muscle quickly.

      3. “The key is S Asian guys have to lift. I want to write a guide one of these days for them here.”

        The issue I see isn’t the lifting in itself. It’s actually having to make a plan on doing what exercise is good for you and having a basic idea about nutrition and then sticking to it.

        I’ve seen many Indian men (who are otherwise excellent students) at multiple gyms who clearly have no idea what they are doing. For example, they don’t know which machine works what muscle in their body. It would be ok if they were new, but then some told me they were visiting for months.

        You’d imagine a software engineer or an accountant would be smart enough to at least look upon the internet about a proper training regimen coupled with a good diet, but no, it has to be explained to financially successful people having master’s degrees and PhDs in their 20s. Don’t even get me started on them reading up a little bit on what food provides which kind of nutrition and in what amounts.

        To add to the nutrition part, many have no idea how to cook beyond the basics. I had to explain to them to think of it as an algorithm. You have a base, cook for this long, add A after chopping, B after heating yadda yadda. And these are guys who have the periodic table memorized in their heads so they have no excuse not to know how to cook or to ‘forget’ the ingredients.

        Then there’s dancing – it’s an integral part of most western cultures and something Indian men could actually be good at. Pick up a few classes in Swing, Forro, Lindyhop or Tango. Yes lad, you may have superior spatial IQ and mathematical memory and whatnot, now get working on your kinesthetics. It really boosts confidence, and as an added bonus, those who dance well would always have interested eyes on them in a ballroom, the world’s your oyster.

        1. dance is huge! some brown guys I know took up salsa and ballroom dancing. they were swimming in ladies. one made it his passion and competed nationally. wild stuff!

          1. Yeah, this is something that’s weird. All my Hispanic (male) co-residents are skilled in dance. It weirded me out when I heard of it.

            I’m still not a fan of it (in the abstract), but if I had to do so, I would suffer through it and much worse in pursuit of ass.

            Fortunately, that’s not something I will be needing to deal with.

      4. Also, I and many S Asians have noted that being the only S Asian in a town or area is amazing. I did better with women in Houston Texas than I did in NJ. A lot of S Asians in both places but more in NJ. I did better in Stockholm and Oslo with girls than I did in the UK.

        Exactly, the appearance of exotic helps, and being charming, pleasant and able to speak a common language puts the icing on the cake.

  9. OUT OF INDIA – BY LAND OR BY SEA? A Paradigm Shift in Ancient Migration Theories, 2019, New Delhi
    Wim J Borsboom


    A bizarre version of the OIT indeed. The SSC people were clearly sea faring but the sea routes cannot explain the the massive evidence of contact between Germanic and Sino Tibetan, IA, Ir and Uralic. There is also the archaeological and genetic evidence already highlighted here in articles by Jaydeepsinh Rathod. Also, the author is following the AIT timeline in Figure 6.

    1. I haven’t read this paper, but it may be the answer on the question in the first comment in this thread. Although, I was expecting the ‘exotic’ antonym on ‘steppe’ genes diffusion and dilution, but ‘bizarre’ is good enough.

  10. I need some local knowledge from pundits insiders. If we do a reverse engineering, I wander what would be my prospects when I come to SA. Should I emphasise that I am coming from the deepest steppe with grass up to the chin or to hide this? Maybe, it is self-explainable but maybe not. I am not blonde (light brownish), green eyes, freckles free skin, not lifting as warlock and razib, with 6 packs visible after deep concentration, but I could take a photo in a goldish, flashy t-shirt in a local gym. I used to play basketball and soccer but pretty lousy in spelling bee. I can say that I play cricket (played once indoor in a mix competition). Simply, don’t know what there ON is (or IN). I am pretty sure that the fact that Aryans were Serbs still hasn’t propagated to the grassroots, but I don’t know if this would be a plus or minus considering strong OIT negative and guerrilla marketing. I would be interested in segments with the most and least ‘steppe’ although, would not be ignoring neither the medium one, nor the total steppe absence, either. What about muslim segment? Is there also a rule similar to Albanians, you’ve touched – you are married? I could claim that I am Bosniac – the same genetics, looks, same language, I can pose a moronic face expression, talk taqiyya and keep mouth inquisitively open. Burqa is so hot for outsiders, you never know, similar to Kris Kringle, what you will get. Only, the difference would be in a non-erected Richard, hooded or not, but this can be managed. I also envisage to kick-off a scientific project: “Following the ancestors’ steps in steppe – from Serbia to Sericum’s (lat. silk) Serindia and Sereno’s Serendib”, which can be later commercialised, and pundits invited to chip in. So many options, world of possibilities, some decisions must be made quickly…

  11. All those supporters of India’s Citizenship Amendment Act will do well to listen to India’s own former National Security Advisor Shivshankar Menon. This is not a Pakistani or a Muslim describing the negative impact of this law on India’s image abroad but a very well-respected member of India’s own establishment.

    In his words: “We’ve lost the ability to be a model country in the subcontinent”.


    1. This is not a Pakistani or a Muslim describing the negative impact of this law on India’s image abroad but a very well-respected member of India’s own establishment.

      The Indian establishment has undergone a significant transformation. People like Menon aren’t in it any more. Our current establishment would consider rags like the Wire to be Left, ergo mouthpieces of Pakistan.

      1. “The Wire” may be Left (I think that is a fair assessment) but Menon ji is not Left. I believe he advocated attacking Pakistan after 26/11. That even someone like him is saying what he is is telling. It’s not like its Arundhati saying it. Anyway, he must be taken more seriously then an Indian Muslim or a Hindu Leftist (automatically presumed to be enemies of the state by default).

      1. Why lose your reputation of being a secular, pluralist, inclusive democracy and become just another majoritarian and ethnocentric country in South Asia?

          1. LOL, I trust Menon ji as a career foreign service professional much more than the right-wing Hindutvadis on Brown Pundits. But hey, your choice.

          2. Menon would care two hoots whether any closet Islamist like you “trust” him on any matter in the BP as it is of no consequence to him.

          3. Sure, the person who has always argued in favor of secularism is a “closet Islamist”. But of course this insult is thrown by the Hindutvadi.

            Anyway it is for you Hinduvadis to reflect on why even your former NSA thinks you are wrong and destroying your country’s image.

          4. I would not put too much weight to Menon’s words though. In his book, he says after mumbai attacks , he suggested bombing Pakistan. Perhaps trying to act “militaristic”, very un-mallu like.

            Dont get fooled by the sudden liberal turn of Menon and his master Chidambaram. They are as hawkish as they come , its just they are out of power. And they were shit at being militaristic , u need a bit of steppe blood for it. 😛

          5. Saurav,

            That is exactly my point. That even someone who suggested bombing Pakistan and can hardly be called “liberal” thinks that CAA is extremely detrimental to India’s image. It’s not like he’s some “leftist” or Muslim who can easily be dismissed.

    1. The US has selectively let Jews migrate to the UK; it also has a policy of naturalization to Christians during the USSR days. The US selects which ethnic or religious groups it can let in and it is in black and white as laws and amendment to laws.
      As long as there are national borders , the Govts are going to decide whom to let in, whom to keep out, and whom to give citizenship.
      The Rohingya refugees have been let down by Malaysia or Pakistan . The Syrian refugees were not welcome in SA or Gulf countries even though there is commonality of language, religion and culture. Islamic countries don’t even recognize there is problem with Uyghurs leave alone give them refuge or naturalization. Actually Uyghur activists were deported back to China by the same countries .
      The dishonesty and hypocrisy of criticism from Muslim countries about CAA or Kashmir mind boggling.

    2. @Dravidarya

      I think India can also give refuge to Muslims fleeing religious persecution – I think it is a matter of priorities, manageability and quantity. One thing at a time.
      Countries like Australia – and may be Boris Johnson govt – want only skilled people who can server them. So they obviously discriminate against non-skilled people. Any govt immigration policies are always , always discriminatory ; otherwise it has lost control of the borders.

      1. I agree with you. We should take Muslims fleeing violence and persecution. I am always for syncretic cultures, India is no India without that. My family sees Sai baba ( A muslim saint) as family guru. I think it’s beautiful as it is. I would like to see that in any country. However, I have BIG problem by people who stand for Islamic Iconoclasm and Monotheistic menace. Hindus should resist any kind of homogenization be it of language, culture, religion, beliefs. I think saying, “allahu akbar’ or ‘la ilahi illalla’ or ‘break the idols’ is offensive and should be shunned by the society ( I don’t support laws against hate speech). It is akin to some white guy calling an african-american the ‘N-word’. Perps won’t be prosecuted by the law but american society will ‘prosecute’ the perp. Regarding recent incidents, our left has woken up the Islamist sleeper cells and it’s time to keep an eye on them.

        1. You must be among the people who thinks Faiz Ahmed Faiz’s poem “Hum Dekhingay” is a call for Jihad.

          If even a leftist Communist poet like Faiz Sahab is an “Islamist” in India, the country has truly lost the plot.

          1. Context aur chronology samjhiyen na! Pakistanis or in general Islamic countries can use faiz as much they want for anything be it for leftist revolutions or religious revolutions. It has no place in indian society as we’re idolators, polytheists. Given the context of CAA and the history of breaking idols in india, faiz’s poem is controversial and insensitive. Are there no poems of resistance on this planet that don’t t call for idol breaking, only Allah will remain. When will this islamic supremacy end?

          2. Dravidarya,

            I think you are another person who needs to read the article linked in my earlier comment about how engineers shouldn’t read poetry literally.

            By the way Indian society doesn’t equal Hindu society. That you apparently think the two are synonymous is a problem.

          3. Kabir,
            Funny, how islamics preach for secularism elsewhere. I don’t think you understood the context, insensitivity, history. I guess you wouldn’t, coming from a ‘la ilahi illahlla’ background.

          4. Dravidarya,

            I have consistently defended the principles of secularism on this blog. You know nothing about me (except presumably my national origin) so you are making assumptions.

            But to label a left-wing communist who was exiled by the Zia regime an “Islamist” is beyond bizarre. I presume you don’t know much about poetry? Many Indians have pointed out that Faiz’s poem is not Jihadi in any way. Even Shekhar Gupta (not a leftist) has said so.

        2. Faiz wasn’t as anti-establishment as he is portrayed though. He was in the Pak army and if i am not wrong in Bhutto’s cabinet. More like India’s ex Parliament member, Javed Akthar in that sense. But considering its Pakistan, that’s perhaps the best anti establishment as it gets.

          On the other hand ,this Faiz’s poem controversy was hilarious and non nonsensical. I would put it down to ignorance rather than maleficence. Indian hindus have more exposure to softer sufi side of muslim poetry (Ram-rahim etc) where idol worship is ok-ish. Not the hard hitting Leftish Sunni ones of idol-breaking of Faiz and Jalib.

          Since idol-breaking is not controversial in Pakistan it was understood better there, and not in India. An opposite example is Pak folks started singing something related to Gandhi;s Vaishnav jan or Iswar Allah songs, which could be misconstrued there.

          1. The first rule of reading poetry is that it has to be understood in context. “Hum Dekhingay” was written during the Zia regime and is against an Islamist dictatorship. Faiz was a communist and cannot in any way be called “Islamist”.

            Second, the poem talks about removing idols from the Kaaba. Who in their right mind thinks that the idols in the Kaaba were idols of Hindu gods? The poem has nothing to do with Hindus or Hinduism.

            Faiz was in the British Indian Army prior to Partition and then briefly in the Pakistani Army. But being in the Pakistani Army doesn’t make anyone “Islamist”.

            The person who started this whole controversy is a certified Islamophobe so I doubt the innocence of the complaint. There was an article in The Print explaining who he is.

            Also this on the fact that engineers don’t understand that poetry cannot be read literally:

  12. razib,A few years ago you wrote a post on gene expression about chitpavan brahmins.i can’t find that link. do you have the link to that post.would appreciate a lot .thanks

  13. Dzudzuana samples are still at large and there is no indication of a nearly pure 100% basal Eurasian discovery being made in the near future, thanks in part to the geopolitical climate becoming tumultuous due to the recent events in the Middle East.
    Looks like Iran mesolithic and neolithic populations will remain a mystery for the foreseeable future.

    The amount of Basal in Iran neolithic changed from 2016 to the 2018 Dzudzuana paper, but only by a bit (from 48% to ~42%). IDK what this means for the 66% basal in Hotu as per the 2016 paper. Maybe it will turn out to be 50% instead, since Hotu also has a higher amount of ANE than Iran neolithic does and it would be strange if it was entirely basal + ANE: like 2/3rd basal and 1/3rd ANE.
    My current guess for Iran mesolithic’s composition is 1/2 basal + 3/10 ANE + 1/5 west Eurasian (WHG-like ancestry in Pinarbasi). Extreme basal side end of the basal to CWE (common west Eurasian) cline mixed with ANE.

    One thing is for certain: CHG =/= Iran neolithic and mesolithic.

  14. I wish happy Christmas day to all pundits who celebrate Christmas according to the Serbian (also known as Julian) calendar, with a traditional greeting – Hristos se rodi – Vaisitinu se rodi. This is Year 7529. based on this calendar which was officially used until the middle of the 19th century.

    1. Oh wow, another cheap propaganda movie! You guys can do better.

      The Pandit exodus does not and cannot justify the atrocities India has committed on the Kashmiri Muslim population. That is the bottom line.

      1. Bro i was half expecting a cheap propaganda movie, but this looks pretty good (even u have to admit). Especially because the makers of the movies aren’t lackeys of the current govt.

        1. Sorry, I have zero patience for right-wing anti-Muslim propaganda.

          From watching this trailer (I was only able to stand one minute of it), it looks completely one-sided. The Muslim guy saying “Hum election nahee, jang jeetaingay!” Just what you would expect.

          It’s actually very sad that people only care about Pandits when it gives them a chance to demonize the majority population of Kashmir. Not buying it.

          1. It’s not propaganda. This stuff really did happen in the late 80s and early 90s. So treat it as a historical movie and judge it on those terms. Don’t take it for an election manifesto.

          2. “I was only able to stand one minute of it”

            Watch the whole thing, there is a certain Pakistani who you might recognize 😛 Especially different from her curated liberal image.

            On elections manifesto, there is subtle dig on it, in the teaser. No one really cares abt the pundits (apart from election rhetoric) , and considering their politics during Nehru and Indira’s time its no surprise.

          3. ”Sorry, I have zero patience for right-wing anti-Muslim propaganda.”

            just goes to show there is not much daylight between a Muslim liberal and your garden variety Islamist.

          4. Arjun,

            I have no patience for the right-wing anywhere. I have consistently argued for secularism and liberalism everywhere.

            I very much resent being called an “Islamist”.

            Your comments on this blog serve as ample evidence of your anti-Muslim bias and Hindutva leanings. You often have no other argument than whataboutary.

            It’s perhaps best you refrain from engaging with me. I will grant you the courtesy of doing the same.

          5. I didn’t call you an Islamist. It is just that Muslim liberals (such as yourself) only differ from openly Islamist individuals in some insignificant matters of form and expression. The bottom line remains the same.
            Labeling views unpleasant to yourself as “right wing” before ignoring their substance is not a credible argument.
            When you dismiss these views as one-sided you remind me of people whose only counter to criticisms of extremist views in Muslim society is to accuse them of one-sidedness. As if your own wholesale dismissal of views you don’t like as “right wing” is the result of some painstakingly balanced analysis.

            I will “engage” with you every time you make particularly silly points.

          6. Of course some times your points border on the insane. Such as, for instance, reducing all North Indian “high” culture to shalwar kameez and kakori kabab. It is difficult to “engage” with such bizarre expressions of Muslim chauvinism without sounding stupid oneself. I cede you this ground in the hope of getting greater entertainment.

          7. I’m not a “Muslim liberal”. I am a liberal period. I happen to be Muslim because I was born and brought up in a Muslim family, just as many people are born and brought up in Hindu, Christian or other types of families.

            You pretending that you are some example of even-handedness is ridiculous. Your record on this site is ample evidence of anti-Muslim bias.

            I am done wasting time on people like you.

        2. It’s propaganda because it is a one-sided retelling of history. Presumably this movie doesn’t acknowledge that India rigged the election which led to the beginning of the violent insurgency. Does the movie acknowledge the Kashmiri Muslim perspective or does it make all Hindus out to be heroes and Muslims villains? Given the political climate of India today, I would bet on the latter.

          I get that Indians are never going to acknowledge anything good about Pakistani leaders. But Qauid-e-Azam was the “Ambassador of Hindu-Muslim Unity” for many years. Whatever else he stood for, it was not a theocratic Pakistan. Benazir was the first elected woman Prime Minister of a Muslim-majority nation. She fought for democracy against a brutal Islamist dictator.

          General Musharraf is the only one of the three I am not interested in defending.

          You are free to have your own perspective on history. But if you expect movies like this to play well to anyone other than your domestic audience, you are highly deluded.

          If a Pakistani filmmaker made a movie showing Pandits as the collaborator class siding with the Hindu colonial state against the poor innocent Muslims of Kashmir, you guys would be outraged. You should expect the same from us. Hindu nationalist bullshit doesn’t play well outside of Bharat Mata.

          1. Also, “refugees in their own country” is a Indian nationalist trope. Kashmir is a Disputed Territory not unequivocally part of India.

          2. Presumably this movie doesn’t acknowledge that India rigged the election which led to the beginning of the violent insurgency.

            So what Kashmiri Muslims did to Kashmiri Pandits (property vandalism, assault, rape, murder, expulsion) was justified because the Indian state rigged an election?

          3. I never said the Pandit exodus was justified. It is however a fact that the election rigging in 1987 was the last straw that led to the violent insurgency. Previously, the movement for self-determination had been non-violent–not that that worked particularly well with the Indian State either.

            January 6 was the anniversary of the Sopore Massacre of 1993. When are we getting a movie about that? But of course such a movie would paint India and its forces in a bad light, so it’s unlikely to ever see the light of day.


          4. The Indian public ought to be made more aware of the plight of ordinary Kashmiri Muslims, those who aren’t active secessionists or militants. But the public isn’t going to be receptive to it currently. The BJP and its propaganda arms have convinced big sections of India that this is a golden opportunity to correct historical wrongs. There’s no force in India that is capable of resisting that at this time, so this mood will have to run its course.

          5. Wanting the right to self-determination is not a crime. Indians need to learn to deal with that, whether they think people are “secessionist” or not.

            But of course most Indians would just like Kashmiri Muslims to disappear. 150+ days of communications shutdown and counting.

            This is exactly why I am not sympathetic to movies about the Pandit tragedy. In this particular climate, it is just aimed at fomenting more right-wing nationalism.

  15. Iran has hit back.

    At this point, the key question is if any american soldier died in the attack. I am sure at this point Iranian leadership is praying that no american soldier dies. that will allow the possibility that US will not reciprocate, and iran will be able to claim that revenge was extracted.

    let’s see how the situation evolves.

  16. I am genuinely puzzled why does the recent “transformation” not compared with Pakistan but to Israel. That would make the comparison more apt to its readers considering their history and geography.

    Is it because western authors genuinely feel that irrespective of how low India goes it can’t/won’t have Pakistan type of laws? Like is Pakistan not even worth comparing or something. Or is it that there is a certain higher standards to which these 2 democracies are held to, and comparison b/w them would make sense. Because there is hardly anything to compare b/w Israel and India (notwithstanding online fans)

    1. Read the article (which was written by a Palestinian)

      1)Hindutvadis are directly inspired by Zionism. Savarkar was inspired by both Nazi Germany and the Zionist movement (ironic I know).

      2)What India is doing to Kashmir has often been compared to what Israel does in the Occupied Palestinian Territories.

      3) Pakistan does not have any kind of a religious test for citizenship.

    2. “I am genuinely puzzled why does the recent “transformation” not compared with Pakistan but to Israel.”

      The author is Palestinian. Israel might be a more immediate example for him.

      In any case, for some liberals, Israel is a bigger evil than Pakistan.

      1. Pakistan is not a settler-colonial state that is Occupying someone else’s territory. AJK and G-B are DISPUTED. Only India calls them “Pakistan-Occupied Kashmir”. The whole world considers the West Bank and Gaza to be Occupied Palestinian Territory.

        Hindutvadis have drawn direct inspiration from Zionism, not from Jinnah’s Muslim League.

        1. TBF the whole world neither uses India-occupied or Pak-occupied, it just says so and so administered Kashmir.

          1. That is the whole point. India thinks Pakistan’s Kashmir is “Occupied”. We think India’s Kashmir is “Occupied”. The world recognizes it as Disputed.

            In contrast, the entire world agrees that the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem do not belong to Israel.

    3. The writer is an Arab Muslim, so there is nothing to be confused. Like some others on this site, liberal-sounding rhetoric is merely a tactic to be used in furtherance of an Islamist partisan agenda.

  17. Well the fundamental point is both Israel and Pakistan are homeland for ethno-religious people. If India is moving towards that , shouldn’t an apt example be Pakistan, rather than Israel?

  18. I will watch the movie and may review it here.

    Anyway, Kashmiri Pandits should create Israeli style settlements (kibbutzim) in the Kashmir Valley.

    1. Trust you to support a fascist idea like settler-colonial settlements in a highly militarized zone. You people are honestly disgusting.

      1. Kabir, out of curiosity, I am posing a direct question to you. Do you think Ahmadis are Muslims? Please do not try to dodge. Answer yes or no.

        1. I don’t think it is the business of the State to decide if someone is Muslim or not.

          Clear enough for you?

          1. I didn’t ask the state. I asked you.

            but that’s a good enough answer. a hardcore conservative would have defended state’s right to decide who is a muslim and who is not. so you still get to keep your liberal badge.

          2. If the State doesn’t have the right to decide, then who am I as an individual to have an opinion one way or the other?

            Whether Ahmadis are Muslim or not is between them and Allah.

            But thanks for letting me keep my “liberal badge”. Not that you have any authority to dole those out.

    2. Pandits should stay in India since they’ve sided with the foreign occupiers instead of the native Kashmiris in their struggle for independence.

      Algeria said the same to its handful of Arabs who supported the French occupation, as did America to its British loyalists during the independence movement.

      1. Pandits are native Kashmiris. They should be able to return to the Valley. However, Israeli-style settlements guarded by the Indian Army are not the way to do it. That would only make the majority population feel even more colonized.

      2. The Kashmiri insurgency was stillborn. And it’s been decades since its high-water mark.

        The problem with celebrating ethnic cleansing in the context of armed struggle is…what happens when you lose?

      3. //Pandits should stay in India since they’ve sided with the foreign occupiers instead of the native Kashmiris in their struggle for independence//

        Shouldn’t this be up to kashmiris? They can also expel the buddhists, muslims, and entire muslim ethnicities who collaborated with either the indian and pakistani states as well.

        1. A Pandit return is only possible after a truth and reconciliation process takes place.

          The more Pandits side with Hindu nationalists and weaponize their own narrative in order to demonize the majority population of Kashmir the less likely that they will ever be able to return. But it seems some Pandits are delighted when atrocities are committed against Muslims because it is “revenge” for what happened to them.

      4. Pandits should stay in India since they’ve sided with the foreign occupiers instead of the native Kashmiris in their struggle for independence.

        Kashmir has been a part of India (the cultural/civilizational entity, not the country) for ever, whereas the calls for independence are only a few decades old. Before such calls, it would have been ludicrous for Kashmiris to think of other Indians as foreigners or India as an occupying force. The Pandits have been quite consistent in their thinking on this; it’s the Muslims who have changed their minds thanks largely to the influence of Islam International Inc.

        1. Kashmir was an independent kingdom until it was conquered by the Mughals in 1586. Since then, the region has experienced Afghan, Sikh, Dogra, and now Indian rule. The Kashmiri people have a long historical memory of subjugation and naturally yearn to rule themselves.

          Pandits benefited disproportionately under Dogra rule since they formed the educated class and also shared the religion of the rulers. Subsequently, they were seen as a collaborator class who sided with their coreligionists in mainland India against Kashmiri Muslims.

          1. With leftists as “principled” as this, who needs rightwing haters ? 🙂

            Islamists see the world as believers vs infidels.
            Muslim liberals see it as poor oppressed Muslims vs. oppressive non-Muslims.

            Different verbiage, same bigotry.

          2. The oppressed are not always Muslim. People can be oppressed because of their race, gender, sexual orientation etc.

      5. \Algeria said the same to its handful of Arabs who supported the French occupation, as did America to its British loyalists during the independence movement.\

        that is precisely what many in India say to those Muslims in Kashmir who pine for Pakistan to migrate to Pakistan; some other people say as many Muslims voted for Pakistan in 1947, they should migrate to their promised land.

  19. Looking forward to it.

    Anyways i think the left/liberals are learning now. Just like the right took away left talking points (poverty, populism etc) , the other side now wants to anticipate and “normalize” right’s talking point before right wing turns it into a clarion call.

    The current CAA-NRC protests now always fly the national flag. National anthem is sung in the protests . Any Free Kashmir/anti hindu posters quickly pulled down. Interesting to see how right will counter that.

    1. It doesn’t have to, it just has to have Arnab and the IT Cell only show montages of the times protesters don’t behave nicely.

      Politics is just war without bloodshed, and all’s fair in war…

      1. That’s true H.M. but the other side is picking up new tricks , and our side seem slow off the blocks. The only good thing which has happened is everyone is now in the open and we know all who stands where.

        Unless there is some super 3D chess thing happening , which thru this CAA, the silent majority is being galvanized, i dont see any use of burning further political capital on a largely useless cause.

        1. I don’t think really anyone is being moved one way or another by the protests. The international leftists and their local proxies hated Modi for years before these events. The Republic-watchers loved him. The Middle Hindus have other concerns.

          The BJP will sink or swim based on how it handles the economic doldrums. It can push a cultural agenda to win some support (it has this advantage over the Left, which has few takers for its agenda), but only for a time.

        2. Anyways, I think the “flag and anthem” tactics of the protesters are a level-up from their usual fare. If people take it seriously, it will be harder to throw the “anti-national” label at them.

          Or people might just ignore them…they are offering a rather old and quaint message in this age of new ideologies and political polarization.

  20. Lol, the comment section is allergic to Sanskrit. All my comments with Skt verse end up in trash. And irrespective of the transliteration scheme too — what zeal!

    Anti-Hindu bias 😉

  21. I never imagined I would say this, but i am developing a grudging admiration for Trump! look at some of his recent wins.

    he took out the second most powerful man of iran at the cost of an aircraft hanger and couple of craters on the runways!

    he has bottled up N korean rocket man, at least temporarily. no missile launches are coming from N korea for some time now.

    he has strong armed china to come to a trade deal.

    and reports say mexico is actually using its security forces to prevent refugees flooding US-mexico border. at this rate i won’t be surprised if he actually forces mexico to pay for his wall!

    the guy is smarter and tougher than most thought.

    1. Eh, which US president would not have gotten away with doing similar things? Trump’s just made certain choices other presidents (more sane, prudent, less egotistical ones) would not have made.

      The US at this time is overwhelmingly more powerful than any coalition of countries that could conceivably oppose it, including China. The US (and its insane president) can get away with the equivalent of “murdering someone on 5th Avenue in broad daylight” with impunity.

      What Trump has done is destroy the notion that there ought to be norms in international relations, at least the illusion of which grew in the aftermath of WW2. The consequences of these will be felt keenly (it’s been less than 3 years since the wrecker came to power), far outweighing any temporary gains from the killing of Suleimani or the bottling up of Rocket Man.

  22. Kashmiri Pandits can live as they please in the Kashmir Valley. Israeli-style kibbutz communities are a great idea.

    There also needs to be a lot more private investment in Kashmir generally to improve the lot of the local people. And the place could benefit from Israeli technical know-how in water conservation, agriculture, high-technology industry etc. Possibilities are endless.

    1. The fact that you don’t see that militarized settlements among a hostile and colonized population is an extremely fascist idea says a lot about you.

      This love for a Zionist settler-colonial state reflects nothing but anti-Islamic bias.

      1. This love for a Zionist settler-colonial state reflects nothing but anti-Islamic bias.

        is the robot capable of not speaking in buzzwords produced by propaganda-central?

        1. Lol @ Razib

          One of these days (if my kids leave me in peace) I am really going to churn the data on the comment section of this website and assign Shannon entropy to each commentator.

        2. Some buzzwords

          Zionist settler-colonial state
          Hindu Rightwing
          weaponize their own narrative of victimhood
          atrocities against Muslims
          majority population feel even more colonized.
          fascist settler-colonial settlements
          Disputed territory

          It looks like all this evil is taking place only in 2 places – India and Israel. – Woke’s nightmares
          See no evil in Pakistan , China, Iraq , Malaysia , Nigeria or any other country. World is a boring place with evil in only 2 countries

          1. “Islamophobia”

            Reminded me of my conversation yesterday with one of my lefty friend, who is concerned that the Indian right has now started using “Hindu-phobia” against the dissidents and critics of the Govt and its working on the general Hindu public (surprise , surprise)

            I was like man, what did u think that u folks thought that the weapon u wield can only be used against the right ,LOL. Ditto with nationalism, for last 70 years u called the right ,lackeys of British and anti-national, now the shoe is on the other foot, so y u complaining.

          2. if kabir was born as amit in india he’d spout internet hindu talking-points/buzzwords. not about his SJWrobotbrain. i think he’s smart enough to have a vague idea of the buzzwords, but too stupid to be able to analytically reflect on how stupid buzzword-speaking style makes him seem to outgroups. this is the same with lots of internet hindus.

          3. Well, name-calling only works when there’s a core of truth to it.

            “Anti-national” works because the Left pals around with A Roy and her ilk. There’s no analogous phrase in America because the equivalent of A Roy (Chomsky) is a marginal figure.

            “Anti-Semite” worked in the UK because quite a few Lefties were actually anti-Semitic, or saw it as something of no consequence. It hasn’t been very successful against the American Left because the American Left’s older mandarins are pro-Israel and very disproportionately Jewish themselves (this may change.)

            “Anti-Hindu” or “Hinduphobic” may well work because for a century now the Indian Left has openly derided Hinduism. (It won’t work or matter in America, nobody cares about Hindus here.)

          4. “anti-national” may not play in america because of our libertarian ethos that cuts across factions. “anti-american” might work, but it would be used most effectively against people associated with authoritarian movements, the sort of people who who call people “anti-national”. Southerners, a people who’s credentials as americans are rarely questioned, are proudly anti-national in their reading of the civil war, and policy around centralized power.
            India’s left and right agree upon a hell of a lot, and are both quite nationalist. In the whole anti-CAA/NRC discourse, very few people are concerned about how it undercuts federalism. They just want a nehruvian “woke” centralized authoritarianism.

          5. This will eventual be the fate of cancel culture in India. In India the left has aped the same tactics of the west, and has harangued employers, administration etc and forced them to lay off right wing folks from their companies, sometime in a 3rd country.

            But unlike US, India does not have 1st amendment, neither is the liberal- conservative split even. So there will come a time when this woke kids will have their own weapon pushed against them. In India the Govt is still a major patron of lot of stuff including Business. As well as the Indian Businesses are traditional conservative and populated by people from the upper crust (UCs- biggest supporters of the BJP) of the society with the highest political and social capital . Soon u will see right wing “cancelling” this wide eyed jokers. And the cycle will continue

          6. ““anti-national” may not play in america because of our libertarian ethos that cuts across factions.”

            Wasn’t ‘communist’ sort of the American version of anti-national for the longest while?

            Still seems to have purchase, though it might be in need of an upgrade.

          7. I have never stated that “evil” takes place in only two countries. For the record, India and Israel are not “evil”. It is the current regimes in both countries that I am against.

            I have defended secularism everywhere and criticized Pakistan for not being a secular state. I am against China’s treatment of the Uighurs. I would be happy to discuss Nigeria too if it ever comes up on this blog, though I will confess that I am not particularly interested in that country.

            The real problem you all have with me is that this blog attracts people from the Right-wing and you don’t like having your views challenged by a principled leftist. Much easier to focus your attacks on my national and religious origin.

  23. Bravo Kabir, he is like a opener on a 7 for 102 situation, battling bravely. i feel some one should give company at the other end.

      1. not fair. INDTHINGS alternates btwn troll and normal person with more than half-a-brain. i think bentwig is totally sincere and NOT a troll. don’t now if it’s better to be a clever troll or an earnest moron.

  24. Mohammed–peace be upon him–described 124,000 divine messengers sent by Allah the merciful.

    Now the messengers come again:
    In Fathers Scorpian Eater and Slapstik we trust,
    May they be the truth, the way and the life,
    Jai Shree Ameen

  25. Six SDPI workers arrested for attack on pro-CAA rallyist


    “The arrested have been identified as: Mohammed Irfan, 33, a ladies tailor, Syed Akbar, 46, a mechanic, Sanaulla Sherief, 28, an electrician – all residents of RT Nagar; Syed Siddique Akbar, 30, a civil contractor and a resident of Lingarajapuram; Akbar Basha, 27, a delivery boy with an e-commerce firm and a resident of KG Halli; Sadiq Ul Amin, 39, a sound system rental shopkeeper and resident of Shivajinagar.”

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