139 Replies to “Open Thread – Brown Pundits”

  1. https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/feb/19/coming-out-as-dalit-how-one-indian-author-finally-embraced-her-identity

    “Pretending not to be a Dalit took a heavy toll on the young Yashica Dutt.

    Her mother, Shashi, was so determined to protect her three children from the discrimination of the Hindu caste system that relegates Dalits to the periphery of society that she pretended the family were Brahmin.

    Shashi worked hard to find the money throw birthday parties, have curtains on the windows, and to follow traditional rituals correctly. But for the children it meant that one wrong word or gesture while playing with friends or buying sweets from a shopkeeper could expose the lie…”

    Interesting read

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    1. Shashi worked hard to find the money throw birthday parties

      Is this supposed to be a Brahmin thing? In my family, people considered birthday celebration to be a western thing, something we didn’t really do. I remember having maybe 2 or 3 (at a very small scale, involving a couple of friends) when I was a kid, but that was about it.

      have curtains on the windows

      This too. In fact, I’ve seen this as a pan-Indian preference: Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs,…

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    2. The attitude to paint all the Hindus as “whites of India” is deplorable and doesn’t stand scrutiny. Rajputs, Muslims, certain sections of Brahmins had the “white privilege” at their disposal for the last 400-500 years on the expense of rest of the Hindus (caste and outcastes alike). These are the sections that behave like woke urban white left liberal persons of USA. There is a tremendous amount of propaganda by the Islamists and left-liberals to prove that all the Hindus are the ‘whites of India’.

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  2. Is 100% AASI phenotypically completely Black African? or is it like a cross between a full congoid/Afro phenotype and some other phenotypes?
    If AASI ppl are physically similar to Africans then South Asians should have been as athletic as Africans.

    Please suggest me some good books on population genetics(for beginners). Thanks in advance

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    1. Where did you find the concept that AASI folks looked Black African or had afro/congoid phenotype?
      The mesolithic Mahadaha skeletons from Gangetic plain had some superficial caucasoid cro-magnon affinity.
      Almost half of modern south Asian people have a phenotype that can be described as larger-headed, flatter-faced, often with strong cheekbones and concave nose. In my opinion, these traits are not from Iran_HG era but pre Iran_Hg era. Look at these Bangladeshis:
      https://d1iymi290siew6.cloudfront.net/images/SheetherMela/bangla%20food.jpg
      The phenotypes above is a common one that we see among Bangladeshi aunties, and they, for the most, have the features I described above.

      Now, look at these Chittagong students profile:
      https://farm1.static.flickr.com/980/39902485150_83510d0da5_b.jpg
      The student wearing the eyeglasses has a different profile than the others; the other two appears more Iran_HG influenced. These are the two common distinctions I see among Bangladeshis phenotypes.

      Most likely AASI itself wasn’t a homogenous group, and distinct AASI groups lived in different parts of South Asia. Maybe a Gangetic plain AASI had a different admixture proportion than a southern AASI or a Northwestern AASI? Only ancient DNA can validate that.

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      1. Nah those ones don’t really fit the bill as far as cromagnid is concerned. I think you posted some guy with a small nose and other corresponding features a while back- that was actually a good example.

        I have the Ganga and other south Asian mesolithic AASI basic cranial measurements and there is quite a bit of variation, there are some [narrow, very tall and long skulls] and at the same time there are [low skulls with an above average length and width value].
        A good contrast would be Sarai Nahar Rai 70-IV vs Sarai Nahar Rai 72-III. You can find images online if you look hard enough but here is a summary regardless:

        SNR 70-IV had a skull length of 192 mm, skull width of 146 mm, basion-bregma height of 124 mm, bizygomatic diameter of 145 mm and a bigonial diameter of 118 mm.

        SNR 72-III had a skull length of 198 mm, skull width of 135 mm, basion-bregma height of 153 mm, and a bigonial diameter of 90 mm.

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          1. They are distantly related, distantly enough to look quite distinct phenotypically. Compare Andamanese with Paniya tribals phenotypes. AHG is an imprecise proxy for AASI as we yet to discover a 100% AASI.
            As DaThang mentioned, the Gangetic plain AASI shows a bit of variation in cranial measurements. Mahadaha skeletons had Cromagnon influence. All these favours the idea AASI folks weren’t a homogenous group.

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    1. Bernie Bros are created in a laboratory in Tel Aviv by the Spetsnaz and Trump Industries in order to steal elections for Practically Hitler Putin, and mess with FIFA rankings.
      I know it’s true because I read it at Vox.

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  3. New presentation from archaeologist Michael Fracheti at UC Berekely

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lP16l1PFoLA&t=1322s

    It is rather long but the first 20 minutes can safely be skipped from the OIT/AIT standpoint. Frecheti has been digging in Kazakhstan and is also a coauthor on the latest Rai, Shinde and Narsimhan et al. paper

    Freezing frame at 22:00

    1. The animals have been scaled to size according to their relative importance. Horses are the least important in the putative Pontic steppe homeland almost 2500 years AFTER the PIE is supposed to have disintegrated.

    2. Same is the case at 2000 BCE when the IA are all poised to invade, integrate, trickle, dance what ever have you into India. The economy is dominated by goats and NOT by cattle as it would be IF they had came all the way down south from the presumed steppe homeland.

    3. Grain appears for the first time on the steppe around 2700 BCE in the eastern steppe and not in the modern Turkmenistan region. Note also that agriculture was unknown outside the Inner Asian Mountain Corridor till 2000 BCE. A solid line separates it from the northern steppe region and has been captioned “2000 BCE barrier to farming.”

    4. This has important and imo fatal consequences to the AIT. All PIE dialects share an extensive agricultural vocabulary

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_vocabulary

    Tocharian “are” and Celtic “airim” meaning to plow are found at the extreme ends of the modern IE world. How could that be the case if agriculture was unknown in the Pontic steppe till 2000 BCE?

    5. Frcheti talks about panel A of the Narsimhan tweet starting at the 23:17 mark without getting into the IE homeland controversy. But he does say that sheep and goats migrate from the Iranian plateau into a northeastern direction through the IAMC

    https://twitter.com/vagheesh/status/1169673263695319040/photo/1

    This could be used to support the Tocharian movements in an OIT scenario.

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    1. Could be a BMAC related site especially due to the goats being very common. Goat remains were found in Jeitun.

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    1. we saw it last night. i’m shocked that Rajeev Masand rated it higher than Love Aaj Kal 2 (speaks to misogyny & patriarchy in the industry).

      If Sarah Ali Khan’s acting in Love was bad then AK’s acting was completely OTT and frankly detracted from the main story.

      Ayushman Khuranna is following in the footsteps of his initials bros (Akshay Kumar). Making these small town stories (Toilet, Padman).

      The last movie about the hair was nice but this one (Shubh Mangal) was a bit overdone.

      as for what to watch next; skipping on the KP movie but will watch on the Slap as that seems interesting..

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      1. The reviews I read note that it is an important movie for being unapologetic about homosexuality (unlike “Dostana” which treated it as a joke). Their love story is treated the same as any other love story.
        I look forward to watching it once it is on Netflix since I like Ayushmann Khurana.

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      2. Khurana is a genre. The middle class Urban/small town Indian. If the story needs more poorer/rural setting then Raj Kumar Rao.

        Just like Nawzudin and before that Salman movies were a fad and then died down, similarly this will die down too.

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  4. “i’m shocked that Rajeev Masand rated it higher than Love Aaj Kal 2 (speaks to misogyny & patriarchy in the industry).”

    Haha. I agree with Masand. Maybe it’s a cultural thing and Sara appeals more to a western audience.

    SBZS has some really witty and nuanced dialogues that might get lost in translation.

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    1. Pankaj Mishra is the Deepak Chopra of opinion journalism. He is unfocused, meandering, and throws attention-catching words and phrases indiscriminately. But calling a bona fide terrorist attack a false flag operation is a new low for him.

      He and the BJP’s trolls deserve each other.

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      1. To me the most interesting thing is that Pankaj is being “cancelled” because he sort of drifted into his “allies” areas of expertise.

        As long as he was taking pot shots at India and the BJP it was all well and good , but as soon as he took it too far with Indian-Americans and terrorism/Pakistan , somehow now he is cancelled.

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  5. https://scroll.in/article/954104/hindutva-supporters-hate-the-mughals-so-why-is-adityanath-taking-trump-to-shahjahans-taj-mahal
    “So powerful is this association that even Hindu nationalists cannot break it. Ideologically inclined proponents of Hindutva would prefer to see, say, the Raigad Fort of Shivaji as the symbol of the Indian Union. But Shivaji did not rule all of modern Maharashtra, not to mention India. Similarly, no other state in the Maratha Confederacy ever reached the pan-South Asian scale of the Mughal empire. In fact, even when the Marathas were more powerful that the Mughals, they could not think of deposing the emperor at Delhi as the Indian sovereign. Only a foreign power, the British, could consider taking that extreme step.

    Many Indians would have favourable views of the kings that Hindutva supporters hail. But they sit in very different box compared to the claim to pan-South Asian sovereignty that the Mughals make in popular memory.”

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      1. The fundamental issue is that despite the fact that today’s India de-legitimizes anything Mughal (or Muslim for that matter), the global symbols of India’s grandeur are all associated with the Islamicate civilization. Tourists come to see the Lal Qila, the Taj Mahal, the Qutub Minar and not any explicitly Hindu monuments. Even the Hindutva administration in UP is taking Trump to the Taj Mahal. Because the Taj is the most well-known “Indian” monument–even though many Indians think that its being built by a Muslim king for his wife makes it un-Indian.

        It would be better if India were able to accept all aspects of its past. The Islamicate civilization added a lot to what we now know as India. Indeed one can argue that North India’s high culture (Ganga-Jamuni Tehzeeb) would not have existed without it. This is not an argument to whitewash the negative impact of the Islamic “invasions” but simply not to reject that era of History in an a-historical and fundamentalist manner.

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        1. I mostly agree with you and author about the foolishness of calling these monuments ‘unIndian’. They are as Indian as Hoogly bridge, India gate, Gateway of India and other colonial buildings in south Mumbai are Indian. They were built by Indian money and labor under the direction of then administrators/rulers.

          Then there are couple of things that need to be set straight. The author almost baits the Yogi govt. (of which not too many people including me think highly of) to use something else for Trump tour. Now if they really did something that foolish, the very author would have cried foul. So damned if you do damned if you dont situation there.

          Secondly Marathas did use Mughal emperor for continuity but to assume that had they got a chance for say another 100 years without British coming in, I highly doubt they would have continued using emperors of Mughal extraction. So only a foreign power could take that extreme step is wrong

          ‘The fundamental issue is that despite the fact that today’s India de-legitimizes anything Mughal (or Muslim for that matter)’
          Thats simply not true for most people except fringe right. Ask even the most RW about say Dr. APJ Kalam and you will know the answer.

          In long term, independent India will need to create its own symbols like USA did to come out of British (& additionally Mughals for Indians) shadow. But it will take time for that.

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          1. Dr Kalam is the Hindu Right’s example of a “good” Muslim because he read the Bhagavad Geeta and identified with the symbols of Hindu culture. Those Muslims who prefer to stay away from Hindu cultural symbols are looked upon much less favorably. The implication is that the minority is tolerated only on the suffrrance of the majority.

            The Mughal emperor was seen as the legitimate ruler of India as late as 1857. It was Bahadur Shah Zafar that the sepoys (mostly Hindu) turned to when they rose against the colonial power– not a Maratha or other Hindu king. Clearly, Zafar’s religion was not seen as a problem– unlike today where his being Muslim would be seen to disqualify his “Indianness”.

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        2. Indeed one can argue that North India’s high culture (Ganga-Jamuni Tehzeeb) would not have existed without it.

          this seems like the major qualification. though far less well known, i have encountered western tourists who have visited south indian temple complex, and were there for that reason.

          (your overall point is valid)

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        3. “The fundamental issue is that despite the fact that today’s India de-legitimizes anything Mughal (or Muslim for that matter)”

          Dude, please come and visit India. This is the kind of strawman I am talking about. No one is de-legitimizing Mughals except for the vocal Hindutva people you see on Twitter.

          “the global symbols of India’s grandeur are all associated with the Islamicate civilization.”

          It is because independent India chose to promote them in tourism campaigns. Could have easily been the Konark Sun Temple instead of Taj Mahal. Doesn’t mean Indians don’t hold both in regard.

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          1. Your prime minister is on record as referring to “1000 years of occupation”. He obviously includes the Mughal era in this category. The BJP government renamed Allahabad to “Prayagraj”. It is not just people on Twitter who believe that somehow anything associated with the Muslim period is un-Indian. Just as Pakistan is foolish in denying the non-muslim past, India is foolish to ignore the glories of the islamicate period and their contribution to the syncretic North Indian high culture.

            I have visited India before and spent time in Delhi and Agra. Unfortunately, these days the possibility of someone of Pakistani origin– even those of us with foreign citizenship– getting a Visa is almost non-existent.

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          2. @Kabir:

            This North Indian high culture you keep talking about was created by and for Muslim aristocrats (most of whom consciously connected themselves to foreign Islamic cultures and treated Hindus as a subject population), not for Avadhi peasants. The monuments are all quite impressive, I grant you; I’ve seen the Qutb Minar, Humayun’s Tomb, Taj Mahal, multiple times and have never failed to be awed by them. But these monuments, like most built in the pre-modern era, were vanity projects involving masses of slave labor drawn from the subject population.

            In our modern populist era, we just can’t look at all of these purely as works of art and forget the often humiliating and brutal history behind them. Because most of us are descended from the underclass population that was invaded and subjugated. Other countries have similar artifacts, but, for example, no one in Egypt thinks of themselves as connected to the Hebrew slaves (assuming that tale is true), so they can admire the pyramids in a dispassionate manner. If all of us Hindus had converted to Islam, I don’t think we’d have a problem with our medieval history either. But we didn’t convert; so we do have a problem.

            What’s the solution? I have always found it in classical liberalism of the Enlightenment variety, itself owing much to both the American and French revolutions (mostly the former). Where people consciously choose to be modern and look to the future, and in most ways cut our ties to the past (I think VS Naipaul said this too). Our shared modernity will then be far more important than whether we are descended from the oppressors or the oppressed.

            But with the world, and especially India, turning against liberalism, I don’t hold out much hope.

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          1. They are not secular so our resident secular has no problem with it. Pretty soon this city too will only have “Islamicate culture” left in it.

            i am not a #1 kabir fan, but i think he’s pretty clear he judges india to a higher standard because he expects and hopes it to be better than pakistan has become.

            of course, i remember him making some mildly religiously prejudiced and ethnically ignorant comments in the past (as well as mildly classist). i’m actually OK with that (look at all the dumb hindus we tolerate too), but that undermines his credibility re: double standard.

            in any case, i do think it’s not redounding to india’s benefit to compare it to pakistan. what’s the point contrasting yourself with the failing student if you parents say you are barely passing? (not judging on whether india *is* even ‘barely passing’, but the point is comparing to pakistan weakens, rather than strengthens, the moral rebuttal to kabir).

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          2. My point is not so much to show oneself as better than Pakistan but this: Kabir’s (and by Kabir I mean seculars both Pakistani and Indian) behaviour and his expectations that “India be better” (and India’s own very flawed efforts to live up to Kabir’s expectations) leads to a historical process where Hindu artefacts are continuously replaced by ‘Islamicate’ ones (which then, comically, Kabir holds up as his proof of whatever point he is making.)

            Since ‘seculars’ have not proven useful to block this process we now live in a world where only bigots are attempting to reverse it. It’s a kind of historical Karma.

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          3. Arjun,

            Don’t assume that I have no problem with the fact that Lahore–a city of 11 million people–only has two functional Hindu temples. Even though Pakistan doesn’t claim to be secular, those places of worship are still important to Pakistani minorities and equally importantly are part of the heritage of all Pakistanis. The article correctly noted that while Pakistan is happy to show a “soft image” by facilitating pilgrims at Kartarpur, it doesn’t want to preserve the spaces of its own minorities. Also, there is no excuse for Hindu places of worship to be torn down as revenge for Babri or for any other reason.

            I have actually visited this Valmiki temple during Diwali a few years ago. Here’s something written on the occasion (not by me): https://thesouthasianidea.wordpress.com/2013/11/09/in-search-of-diwali-in-lahore

            However, as Razib pointed out, I do hold India to higher standards since it is a constitutionally secular state. If you guys go full Hindu Rashtra, I would not complain at all about the fate of Islamicate monuments and culture.

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          4. I dunno Razib. I feel like India’s size and prominence makes people compare it to countries out of its league, and when reality sets in, people start bashing India.

            The better frame to approach India is not “look at this country that’s so much more poor and lawless than Western democracies,” but “look at this country that’s so much more stable, democratic, and economically diversified than the rentier states and military juntas that comprise its peers.”

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          5. I don’t really understand the whole “higher standard” for India.

            Isn’t it soft of a soft bigotry of low expectations for Pakistan and Islamic countries to just accept a higher level of religious suppression from them ?

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          6. I don’t really understand the whole “higher standard” for India.

            Isn’t it soft of a soft bigotry of low expectations for Pakistan and Islamic countries to just accept a higher level of religious suppression from them ?

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          7. Sumit,

            India is a constitutionally secular state–not a Hindu one. Therefore, it must be held to the standards of secular states and not religiously-based ones.

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        4. “The Islamicate civilization added a lot to what we now know as India. Indeed one can argue that North India’s high culture (Ganga-Jamuni Tehzeeb) would not have existed without it. ”

          Wouldn’t N-Indian people get to decide what constitute their culture and what doesn’t, rather than a Bengali (Shoaib) or Pak-american?

          I mean no one has stopped any Bengali or Pakistani to showcase whatever constitute their culture. Why are non N-Indians getting to determine what should be my culture.

          “Your prime minister is on record as referring to “1000 years of occupation”. He obviously includes the Mughal era in this category.”

          Well we show India gate as Indian monument as well. Does not mean we dont consider British as Colonizers

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          1. Saurav,

            My paternal grandmother was from Agra. Ganga-Jamuni Tehzeeb is very much my culture. Many Pakistanis have roots from the UP. Just because we now hold a different nationality doesn’t mean that we have surrendered our claim on our heritage.

            It is an objective fact that Hindustani classical music, kathak, Urdu etc would not have existed in their present forms if not for the interaction between Hindu culture and Islamicate civilization. One would hope that regardless of how this interaction happened, everyone concerned would be able to claim one of the most beautiful cultures in the world. Denying parts of one’s history because they don’t fit your current ethnonationalist ideology is ridiculous.

            The difference between the British and the Mughals is that the latter became an “Indian” dynasty. We have discussed this several times before. At what point can someone be considered “Indian”? If having actual Rajput Hindu blood is not enough, just because one’s father is Muslim, then what does it take?

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          2. I have no quarrel with u. I sympathize with the fact that ur grand parents had to move out and u would like to associate with that culture. Having said that, dont u think the people who live there today should determine what type of memory they want to associate themselves with. Its a bit like Italian or german Americans wanting to determine what Germany or Italy “real” heritage is.

            Heck, I dont even live there anymore, and even I sometimes have my reservation on extrapolating my wants and desires on the people of my state.

            On Mughal vs British, i wasn;t even going into who’s Indian and who isn;t. Clearly that argument and divide stands. I was just pointing out a smaller issue that, irrespective of a monument history whatever built on India’s land is now Indian (just like Pakistani claim Taxila;s Buddhist heritage as their own, at least the one’s who want to ) .

            One can dissociate itself with the people (British, Mughal) who built it, and appropriate a monument as “Indian” since its on our land. India appropriates a lot of Buddhist stuff while S-E Asia muslim countries host a lot of buddhist/hindu stuff , does not mean one has to associate itself with the people who built it.

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          3. Indians cannot have their cake and eat it too. If Mughal monuments (and Islamicate culture more broadly) are so distasteful to the new Hindu Rashtra, then please feel free to hand over all the Mughal monuments to the country that is happy to see itself as the successor state of the Muslim empires of the subcontinent. The Islamic Republic of Pakistan would be delighted to have the Taj Mahal. The Hindu Rashtra would lose a lot of tourist revenue though.

            Personally, I think denying any aspect of your heritage is ridiculous. But if a country is going to indulge in such things, it should at least be internally consistent.

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          4. Bro , dont u live in a real world or what? There are multiple examples of countries absoltutley dissociating themselves from their previous rulers and still appropriating “their” monuments. India does it all the time, with all British monuments like India Gate, Indian Parliament etc. Literally having its cake and eating it too.

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          5. “Just because we now hold a different nationality doesn’t mean that we have surrendered our claim on our heritage.”

            Lol, you already have a state whose raison d’etre is to represent Islam in the Indian subcontinent. That’s your heritage. That’s the place your heritage packed up and went to.

            India is the place that remains, and it’s not a place you have any say in anymore.

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          6. No, the political developments of the last 70 or so years don’t cancel out the hundreds of years of the heritage of Ganga-Jamuni tehzeeb.

            I can claim as my heritage not just “Islam in the Indian subcontinent”, but all aspects of North Indian high culture. I have studied Hindustani classical music for example.

            I don’t share your parochial view of what constitutes the heritage of one group or the other. That is why I think it behooves India to value all aspects of its pluralist history. That seems to be the major difference between us.

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  6. 1. trumps visited taj as melania wanted to see taj at sunset.the event was a last minute inclusion.
    2. that melania allowed trump to hold her hand is the breaking news in india.
    3. yogi did not visit taj along with the trumps.
    4. prats point is correct.
    5. belur temple in karnataka, bruhadishwara in tamil nadu etc would have been equally impressive.

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  7. @kabir

    ‘Clearly, Zafar’s religion was not seen as a problem– unlike today where his being Muslim would be seen to disqualify his “Indianness”’
    You should revisit my comment. I never suggested that Zafar was not seen as a natural leader by people of the time. The author tried to argue that only foreign ‘Englishmen’ had the capacity to challenge/ change the emperor and I said Marathas if given enough time would have done that too and then if event like 1857 would have happened they quite naturally could well have rallied behind the Hindu maratha king.

    ‘Dr Kalam is the Hindu Right’s example of a “good” Muslim because he read the Bhagavad Geeta and identified with the symbols of Hindu culture’

    And how is that wrong to acknowledge a connection with the land separate from whatever religion you profess? You said in your comment that ‘…Pakistan is foolish in denying the non-muslim past’. If you really mean that then I think Dr Kalam does become a template of how Pak would turn out if they didnt choose to go on fundamentalist path.

    Also I dont think someone’s religion is a problem for them being Indian. But if a religion feels threatened by its people using cultural nonIslamic/Hindu symbols belonging to their ancestors then that is a problem.

    The people not identifying with this fact and specimen like Waris Pathan who still hark on to the good old days when we could oppress you guys are rightly looked at less favorably.
    Your attempt at generalizing the contempt faced by such people to suggest somehow being Muslim in India is seen unIndian is dishonest.

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    1. I have no issues with individual Muslims choosing to read the Bhagavad Gita. I myself have read the Ramayana. Of course, I read it as a literary epic like the illiad or the Odyssey and not as scripture or as history. The issue is one of choice. Those Muslims who consciously choose for whatever reason to disassociate themselves from Hindu culture are still citizens of India and deserving of the same rights as anyone else
      It is dishonest to suggest that there isn’t a section of Indian society that views all Muslims as inherently suspect. Just the other day, a BJP politician stated that all Muslims should have been sent to Pakistan in 1947. Presumably this includes those Muslims who have no issues with their “ancestral culture” as you put it.

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      1. Of course, I read it as a literary epic like the illiad or the Odyssey and not as scripture or as history.

        So do we.

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        1. There are some who take the book as a work of History. Most obviously those who believe that Lord Ram actually was born precisely where the Babri Masjid used to stand. Using a fictional narrative to justify the destruction of an actual minority place of worship seems to fall into the category of taking a literary work literally.

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          1. They are no different from those who read the Quran and regard it as the literal word of God.
            Or maybe they *are* a bit different in that they dont demand that those who call it ‘only’ literature be put to death.

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          2. If you can’t see the difference between divine scripture and a literary epic that’s your problem.

            Or are we now supposed to consider Valmiki a god as well?

            There is never any excuse for a SECULAR state to destroy a minority place of worship no matter what stories people believe.

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          3. ‘If you can’t see the difference between divine scripture and a literary epic that’s your problem.
            Or are we now supposed to consider Valmiki a god as well?’

            One man’s divine scripture is epic , history, cock&bull story etc for another. I don’t see how the two are any different except in eyes of believers. And leave it to the Hindus to classify who’s god and who is not.

            And the court judgement comes from fact that there exists a temple foundation beneath the mosque not just because some people believe whatever they do.

            It is wrong to arbitrarily destroy places of worship in any modern country secular or otherwise. I think the right way for heavily contested and emotional sites like ayodhya, kashi or mathura is to come to a peaceful understanding after taking the whole history and the relative importance of the site for each community into account.

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          4. The court judgement only exists because of the mob destruction of the Masjid. It is ironic that the court itself admitted that the destruction of the mosque was a criminal act and then rewarded the criminals by allowing them to build their Ram temple where the Masjid used to stand.

            I am glad that you concede that in a secular state there is no excuse for the destruction of a minority place of worship, no matter what the religious beliefs of the majority.

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          5. Again learn to read complete facts not just the ones that suit you.

            I said it is wrong to destroy religious places arbitrarily in any MODERN STATE (specially who have signed on to universal declaration of human rights) not SECULAR-Only as you conveniently put it. And I would stand by that.

            Also court gave its order after taking the fact into account that the mosque was built after tearing down the mandir according to archaeological reports from team that also had Mr.K. K. Muhammed, who in his autobiography claimed that Hindu temple was found in excavation and said that left historians are misleading the Muslim communities by aligning with fundamentalists

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          6. I agree that it is unacceptable to destroy religious places in any modern state. However, in those states that don’t subscribe to secularism, secular values cannot be used as an argument against this. This type of mob desecration is especially shameful in a state like India which claims to be for all its citizens and not just for the Hindu majority.

            Regardless of how the Masjid came to be there, it was a criminal act to destroy it. This criminal act has now been rewarded. That says a lot about the majoritarian nature of the Indian state.

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          7. I am sure the majority of peaceful Muslims in those countries can come up with something. Maybe some sentence in the divine revelation could be used for the purpose.

            Hopefully in future both communities will sit together and come to more just way of handling such things. Pushing them under rug and whitewashing the past is certainly not answer either.

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          8. This comment explains a lot about you! Do you also believe that Mohammed flew directly to heaven? Do you also believe that you will get 72 hurrahs?

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      2. I think I already talked about fringe RW elements that have crazy ideas.

        Good that you have changed your opinion quickly from Muslims considered unIndian in today’s India to a section of Indian society having crazy ideas. I think there is a big difference between those two.

        Also just like some Muslims see fit to not be associated with local culture I think conversely some section of the Hindu society doesn’t want to associate their history with stuff related to islamic invaders however foolish both point of views might sound to you and me.

        I personally see no problem in Indians being proud of all heritage be it from Mughal period or British raj.

        The author of article does have a clear opinion regarding how absurd this position of calling Mughal architecture non indian is and I could also imagine someone having low opinion about section of society not owning upto their heritage.

        I think when you want to give power of choice it has to done dispassionately.

        0
  8. Disturbing scenes coming out of Delhi.

    Hordes of Hindu extremists bussed into the city and carrying out what looks to be early stages of a pogrom. Hindu homes marked with Saffron symbol for safety, while Muslims homes being broken into and looted. Muslims in the streets being attacked. Police either indifferent or joining in. Muslims fleeing entirley from certain neighborhoods.

    Same pattern seen in Gujarat, Mumbai, and Babri massacres. Minority appeasement in action once again.

    0
  9. https://www.aa.com.tr/en/asia-pacific/demystifying-death-of-former-pakistani-president-ziaulhaq/1741508

    Demystifying death of former Pakistani President Ziaulhaq

    “The Indian Prime Minister was initially not prepared to receive Pakistani President at the airport but had to be convinced by his associates to do so.

    Before departure my father, while saying goodbye to Gandhi said, ‘Mr. Rajiv, you want to attack Pakistan, do it. But keep in mind that this world will forget Halaku Khan and Changez Khan and will remember only Ziaulhaq and Rajiv Gandhi because this will not be a conventional war but a nuclear war. In this situation, Pakistan might be destroyed, but Muslims will still be there in the world; but with the destruction of India, Hinduism will vanish from the face of this earth.’

    Raja Zafurul Haq said that we were all scared. “

    0
  10. Other countries have similar artifacts, but, for example, no one in Egypt thinks of themselves as connected to the Hebrew slaves (assuming that tale is true), so they can admire the pyramids in a dispassionate manner.

    that’s false. the pyramids were clearly put up by corvee labor. it was part of their service tax. they weren’t slaves, but peasants and artisans. iow, they are the literal ancestors of modern egyptians. egyptians take pride in the pyramids too. one of the things that makes them distinct from othere arabs (now that they are muslim and identify as arab).

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  11. UPDATE on the Hyderabad/Secunderabad dancers photographed by Captain Allan Newton Scott in 1862:

    I discovered late last night that there are four and not three photographs in this set. I was also able to find two unwatermarked, clear photos (Pictures 1 & 2).

    PIctures 3 & 4 are watermarked both by Alamy and by the Bristish Library, so I have used the Alamy ones on which the watermark is less severe.

    I take these dancers to be court dancers, and I note again that 1862 is probably the earliest year from which we have photographs of deva- or rajadasis.

    It is also interesting to note the acrobatic poses, which, though they disappeared from the dasi repertoire, are still retained in gotipua dance, and were a part of early Odissi training until about 1960.

    These photographs speak of a thriving dance economy with no hint of poverty or ostracism in sight.

    We have much to thank Captain Scott for.

    Govind Sanyal says:
    The acrobatic type of charanas or dance movements in Orissa was prevalent not only among the gotipuas (the young boys that performed at specific temples attired in female garb) but also these type of back bending movements were also performed by the maharis, Orissa’s female devadasis

    https://www.facebook.com/donovan.roebert/posts/10156728251531932

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  12. leads to a historical process where Hindu artefacts are continuously replaced by ‘Islamicate’ ones (which then, comically, Kabir holds up as his proof of whatever point he is making.)

    which ones besides the sun temple? asking for myself when i go back to the motherland of my kurfar forebears. i’m not super interested in taj tbh as i’ve been to the middle east and want to see something really alien to my sensibility.

    0
    1. To speak only of the things known for sure, the kind of things referred to in the Scroll article – those temples going to dust either from neglect or active sabotage. More generally – and here it is hard to be specific without being an expert – the large number of “missing temples” from North India. Their presence is attested to by the Ram Janmabhoomi Mandir found under the Babri Mosque, the Gyanvapi Mosque, the remnants of artefacts in the Qutb Minar complex … you know the whole laundry list put up by the ‘bigots’.

      If Kabir wasn’t here lecturing on the proper behaviour of Secular(tm) people I wouldnt personally even care. But it’s a bit rich to hear the devil quoting scripture. He should make at least a token gesture towards cleaning his own house before issuing hygiene certificates to those outside.

      1+
    2. You could go to Ajanta caves in Maharashtra or maybe Khajuraho temples in Madhya Pradesh for something with alien contributions (atleast according to History channel documentaries !)

      I second Arjun’s statement. It’s not as much of a problem about holding India to higher standards but about the sincerity of the people in jury. Otherwise it’s all some sort of ‘taqiyya’ employed to point fingers.

      0
    3. “when i go back to the motherland of my kurfar forebears”

      the word is kuffar (there is germination of /f/ sound).

      since you are desi-fying rapidly, you might as well learn to pronounce the designation of your forebears correctly.

      also, as a good kafir you shouldn’t really have any problem in islamic countries. but technically you are actually a murtad, which is very very bad. don’t let that out in any muslim country.

      0
  13. @razib Sorry I dont think I answered your question (was too much ‘in my head’).
    If you meant to ask for suggestions of Hindu artefacts still left standing that one can visit, I’d recommend Ajanta, Ellora and Khajuraho above all else. I’m sure others have their own favourites.

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  14. If Kabir wasn’t here lecturing on the proper behaviour of Secular(tm) people I wouldnt personally even care.

    to be honest i think the issue is his IQ is high enough to vaguely understand concepts and words, but not high enough to rearrange them in novel and insightful ways. so you get this hectoring and robotic behavior. e.g., “why i never, don’t you know obscure-author-i-read-once-as-undergrad-with-phpd says one must never say such a word lest one give succor to Colonialism!”

    in this he shares a lot with many of the more vocal hinduvata types.

    0
  15. interesting post on reddit

    “I have family friends in both Maujpur and other areas in that region near Bhajanpura. This is what I have managed to gather :

    A muslim mob stoned the hindu houses of maujpur, muslim youth scaled walls and shot at the police from terraces ; the windows of the their own house shattered, they are scared to death with young daughters in the house.
    A petrol pump and several cars burnt by muslims, a temple also damaged in bhajanpura area
    Police is woefully unprepared, they say nobody up is listening to their calls for backup
    Anti Hindu sloganeering is rampant and the Muslims are itching for a fight
    A lot of students are caught in the middle of nowhere coming/going to/from colleges/tuitions/schools
    Pro CAA retaliated a bit and burnt some tent but apart from that there is now budding Hindu consolidation and Hindus are arranging community patrols, supporting local police to protect
    A big retaliation is incoming and then they will blame the Hindus after their blatant provocation and violence.

    TLDR:/ By all accounts, situation is grim and Muslims are getting violent every minute. Police is woefully unprepared, Home Ministry looks uninterested in taking decisive action. Seems Modi govt has left Hindus to their fate to “open their eyes and see the threat”.”

    Jai Shree Ameen

    1+
    1. “By all accounts Muslims are getting violent”
      Yes, the Reddit, Whatsapp, and Twitter comments are certainly persuasive.

      Actual journalists on the ground however unanimously agree that the violence is being committed by Hindus against Muslims.
      Sangh internet trolls always have their alternate versions of reality, which while they fall by the wayside with the passage of time and scrutiny, serve to initially muddy the waters and cause confusion among those who would otherwise be opposed to these atrocities.

      Same nonsense was circulated during the Hindu massacres of Sikhs in Delhi and Muslims in Gujarat.

      0
    2. Let’s hope for a speedy end to the matter. I’m very sorry for anyone’s family who is affected by this.

      My extended family is fortunately not there, though they live in parts of Uttar Pradesh affected by the earlier unrest.

      0
  16. “10:48 pm: Gunman identified as ‘Shahrukh’
    The man in a red T-shirt who opened fire at police during violence in today has been identified as Shahrukh, according to ANI.”

    Sharukh Mohamed per many sources. Isha Ganesha. The truth comes out 😉

    1+
  17. “One man, identified as 33-year-old Shahrukh, has been detained for allegedly firing eight rounds in Maujpur’s 66 Foota Road.”

    from Indian express

    0
    1. Excellent news, Muslims have wised up and learned to defend themselves from Hinduvata gangs and their police accomplices.

      0
      1. Dude you should at least show some shame after being categorically wrong about calling the violence one-sided.

        2+
        1. Hindus attacking Muslims and Muslims fighting back is not “both sides”. Indians used to try this nonsense with the Gujarat massacres, insisting on “both sides” having engaged in violence.

          By your logic “both sides” were engaging in violence during the Mumbai attacks. Since Indians didn’t just lay down and die but sent in their own forces to fight the attackers, we can’t call this one sided violence right?

          0
          1. That’s dumb. The Mumbai violence was a product of a small group of terrorist attackers, not a product of generalized civil unrest, protests, and mobs.

            Anyways, there’s no heroes or villains among either side here. Just turtles all the way down.

            1+
          2. Analogies seem to escape you.

            The point is to illustrate that simply because there is violence being committed by two parties, does not mean “both sides” are culpable for the violence.

            All of the systemic violence has been instigated by Hindu extremists (including the police force). There is near unanimity about this by respected journalists and neutral observers.

            2+
          3. Yes Bombay massacres were analogous to Gujarat, in that a mysterious fire which nobody knows who/how started killed Hindus, which then triggered a premeditated plan to purge the city of Muslims.

            Nobody outside India believes these convenient trigger events to have been started by Muslims. Most say there is no strong evidence to say, while a few (brave imo) state the obvious…that these were attacks carried out by Hindu Extremists, blamed on Muslims without a shred of evidence, to justify ethnic cleansing (or as Modi calls it a natural reaction).

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          4. Of course a very mysterious fire in which a mob stood outside a train that suddenly stopped mid-track mysteriously and a compartment which was mysteriously locked from the outside and caught fire mysteriously.

            It’s on par with the mysterious downing of the world trade towers which “as everyone inside a mental asylum knows” couldnt have been planned and carried out by Muslim terrorists.

            We need a Sherlock Holmes to solve these great mysteries.

            1+
          5. Arjun I don’t want to derail coverage of this current atrocity I’ll just say it is only in India where people believe that Muslims certainly caused the fires. The rest of the world chalks it up unknown, accident, or Hindu provocateurs.

            Quite different then 9/11 theories which only have minority support in the most extreme of Muslim countries.

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      2. Earlier Muslims understand the faults in their ‘holy’ book, urgent need of religious reform and above all their mob mentality the better would be for them and rest of the world.
        These miscreants have been wracking havoc for last 70 days and now Trump’s visit have send them in paranoia. They are very organised and well prepared.
        I pray to mother Aditi to take these pathetic fellows in her refuse and bless them with vision.

        Victory to lord of the universe Indra !!!

        1+
          1. Hi Razib, I have been thinking about the methods to establish permanent peace in the subcontinent. Do you support the idea of converting Pakistanis and maybe Afgans back to Vedic religion?

            0
      3. How narrative remains unchanged for some whatever might be the truth on ground

        ‘Disturbing scenes coming out of Delhi.
        Hordes of Hindu extremists bussed into the city and carrying out what looks to be early stages of a pogrom’

        New Info : I have family friends in both Maujpur and other areas in that region near Bhajanpura. This is what I have managed to gather. A muslim mob stoned the hindu houses of maujpur, muslim youth scaled walls and shot at the police from terraces

        Reaction : Yes, the Reddit, Whatsapp, and Twitter comments are certainly persuasive.
        Actual journalists on the ground however unanimously agree that the violence is being committed by Hindus against Muslims

        Mainstream reporters reports. “10:48 pm: Gunman identified as ‘Shahrukh’The man in a red T-shirt who opened fire at police during violence in today has been identified as Shahrukh, according to ANI.”
        “One man, identified as 33-year-old Shahrukh, has been detained for allegedly firing eight rounds in Maujpur’s 66 Foota Road.”
        from Indian express

        Reaction: ‘Excellent news, Muslims have wised up and learned to defend themselves from Hinduvata gangs and their police accomplices.’

        Clearly no one can slay imaginary dragons or correct for double standards how much ever evidence is presented.

        1+
  18. I think Hindus of Pak and Muslims of India should unite with arms and form a secular army to overthrow their respective governments and form Kabiristan.

    1+
      1. @Prats

        Qabr (grave) is conventionally spelt with a /q/ to render the uvular consonant (used in non-native words of Arabic or Turkic origin in Urdu). So qabristan requires more than just one vowel change.
        (Great thread, enjoying myself!)

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  19. Tweet from Shashi Tharoor
    https://twitter.com/ShashiTharoor/status/1232027196371304453
    “I’m intrigued by human migration&history, so tried a DNA test for ancestry, the @Genomepatri Heritage test from
    @mapmygenome . Fascinating results helped in my personal quest to know were my genes came from. If you’re just as curious as i am, here’s a link:”
    No that is not a typo. Those ARE his genes and we all know where they have come from.

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  20. watched laal kaptaan recently. it feels like a slow burning samurai movie. movie didn’t do well presumably because of its slow pace and somewhat meandering narrative.

    what amused and impressed me in equal measures was that movie is amazingly accurate in its depiction of historical milieu it is based in.

    the story is set in 1789 AD, 25 years after the battle of buxar. india is nominally being ruled by emperor shah alam, but as the movie joking mentions, his sultanate is limited from delhi to palam. india is a playground for all sorts of adventurers and warring powers like british, marathas, rohillas, pindaris and naga sadhus.

    the movie’s depiction of the motives, character and subtleties of these factions is spot on. for e.g., the pindaris are good only as predatory robbers. in open battle they are worthless. the marathas are no longer a united power, but a bunch of independent warlords, and such.

    only place i saw notices a minor discrepancy was the scene depicting the aftermath of battle of buxar, where they have shown awadh nawab shuja-ud-daula in fetters. as far as i know shuja was not captured by the british. he escaped from the battlefield and later accepted british suzerainty over his powers.

    obviously someone has done their homework well. as someone who has resigned to seeing bollywood making a mockery of history, this movie certainly comes as a fresh breeze.

    0
    1. Both Naga Sadhu and Rohilas are shown in a bit flattering light,TBH . Around that time Rohilas were a spent force, while Sadhus weren’t that powerful. Ironically Pindaris were really coming into their own around that time

      0
  21. but “look at this country that’s so much more stable, democratic, and economically diversified than the rentier states and military juntas that comprise its peers.”

    This is old news. Are you following what’s going on in Delhi right now? We ain’t gonna remain stable and democratic much longer.

    And it’s totally bizarre that an American President would remain in the city the entire day, giving press conferences and such, while thugs in cahoots with local police are declaring war on the local Muslims.

    Trump must REALLY like Modi!

    1+
    1. This isn’t the first episode of sectarian disorder India has experienced…and while it’s not good, it’s orders of magnitude less severe than it could have been. We’ll be fine.

      0
    2. Are you blind or deaf?
      The Islamists are raising slogans like :
      1. Zzinnaaa wali azadi
      2. Death to kafirs
      3. Hindustan tere tukde honge etc from 370 days.

      0
    3. “Trump must REALLY like Modi!”

      Well he like our money more. He already has low opinion of 3rd world countries. He must be thinking its par for course. Ironically, he might be secretly marveling that its testament to Indian state and Modi, that he could go around peacefully, with riots erupting. While he cant do the same in either Pak or Afghanistan.

      Also in India, democracy will sustain. In the subcontinent there are far too many rival interests to sustain a totalitarian thing for a long time. Pak/Bangladesh with more homogeneity had to revert to democracy , however controlled it might be. Also democracy sustains in India not because of its elites ( who tweet and give speeches ) , but because of its subaltern (who are in middle of the fight) and value it more. Had it been left to elites, India would have been a dictatorship long back.

      0
      1. I wouldn’t be too smug about India if I were you. Considering that there have not been major riots in Pakistan’s national capital for the past three days.

        0
  22. This paper is another kind of OIT from a legal perspective. It argues that the origins of the Western legal system can be traced back to that of the SSC civilization.

    Robin Bradley Kar is a law professor at the University of Illinois.

    Western Legal Prehistory: Reconstructing the Hidden Origins of Western Law and Civilization. BY Robin Bradley Kar

    https://www.academia.edu/22456350/Western_Legal_Prehistory_Reconstructing_the_Hidden_Origins_of_Western_Law_and_Civilization._BY_Robin_Bradley_Kar?auto=download

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  23. Situation deteriorating rapidly, mosques have been stormed and RSS flags hoisted on top of minarets. Muslims being forced to chant Hindu slogans by police who are joining in. Muslims continue to flee, others courageously fighting back against Hindu Extremists (and being retroactively painted as aggressors by the usual suspects).

    Looks like Delhi purging its minorities once again, like the Sikhs in the 80s, and Muslims in the 40s.

    1+
    1. Stop lying you idiot.
      If RSS was even 20th of this dangerous then rowdy Islamists would have not have dare to cause havoc in Swadesh.
      Islam needs to die for the good of world. I hope someone would nail it’s coffin from India someday.
      Enough with religious fanatism of Islam.

      0
      1. “Islam needs to die for the good of the world”– This is an absolutely disgusting comment and should be deleted from this blog.

        Imagine the outrage here if anyone called for “death to Hinduism”.

        0
    2. This fake video was being circulated by an open jihadan ‘journalist’ as a proof of people attacking a mosque. Now clarificatiom comes from TOI.
      The bibi has deleted the tweet and I hope she goes to jail.
      https://mobile.twitter.com/timesofindia/status/1232342142795665408

      By the way I noticed your sympathies completly escaped 3 temples which were vandalized in Aligarh today or 1 temple which was target of stone pelters yesterday.

      0
      1. He is a fake secular who is triggered only selectively.

        He has been trying to cause alarm reporting stuff selectively from one side and ignoring other side of story. I think most people on the blog know his double standards and ignore his rabble rousing comments

        0
          1. Links of multiple serious newspapers have been shared by others while you are the one making unsubstantiated claims without proof

            Or should everyone just believe you since you comment from Western world and therefore hold monopoly over what the world thinks?

            0
      2. Nope, Naomi Barton reports for sure the mosque incident happened in Delhi, Rana Ayuub also confirmed. Entire facility was looted and set on fire.

        Not a single reputable source has been shared that says Muslims started the riots, or that temples are being vandalized.

        People are claiming these things citing Reddit comments, and then citing reports simply saying Muslims are fighting (which nobody denies).

        0
        1. Rana Ayyub is reliable?
          She is an open jihad symphatizing misinformation agent.
          Indian media and leftist-Islamist brigade is completely responsible for flaring this riot.
          Just like how leftist brigade headed by Irfan Habib was responsible for all of riots erupted after Ramjanambhumi dispute cane to the life.
          These lying ‘historians’ convinced the local muslims(who were in opinion of giving the land back for temple) that ASI was lying and other evidences admittted in court were planted.
          It resulted in 1000s of death across the country.
          Leftists love blood so do Ismists.

          0
        2. @Indthing You mean Times of India and Dainik Jagaran are not among biggest media outlets? Only you are reliable source?
          These jerks have been pelting stones from last two months. But you turned blind on their misdeeds.

          0
        3. “Naomi Barton”

          Thats; what i was talking about when i was referring to Christian S-Indian names. On first glance u would think we are talking about some Hollywood actor.

          0
    3. It seems like you are driving yourself to a frenzy by reading too much Islamist provided propoganda.

      Riots in Delhi are certainly unfortunate and who ever is fanning them should be punished.
      But don’t overdo yourself.
      You will lose the plot and the narrative you always try to peddle

      0
      1. Haha yeah. Partisans on either side are desperate to pin it on the other. The reality is a flareup of subacute mutual low-level violence. There are enough videos and photos to show as much.

        Fortunately, not worse than that for now.

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  24. A wise man once said:

    “There were good people on both sides.”

    Jai Shree Ameen. May the sky, jungle, and river mothers and fathers keep us and our families safe.

    0
    1. I think that you’ll have to change the river title to something else since the Indus settlements weren’t as prominent as they were thought to be in the 1930s. Try Plateau instead.

      0
  25. https://theprint.in/opinion/why-india-should-get-out-and-leave-af-to-pak/147786/

    Why India should get out and leave Af to Pak

    A bit dated article, but since its the month of final US-Taliban solution (hopefully)

    “And yes, there will be a power vacuum in Afghanistan. It will still be a country of great strategic importance. But for whom, is the question. It will be of no to us. None of our supplies or trade come to Afghanistan. None of our bad guys hide there. No Afghan has ever been involved in a terror attack on India. In fact, almost never has a terror attack on us been even planned in the more precise Af-Pak region. They have all been planned and executed between Muzaffarabad, Muridke, Karachi and Multan.

    Far from being a security asset ever, Afghanistan, for the Pakistani army, will be exactly what it has been for any other invading army in its history: a permanent Waterloo in slow motion.”

    0
    1. India’s memory related to Afghanistan is a tortuous one and goes back a millenia. Without support from Afghan tribes, the (mostly Turkic) Delhi Sultanate would not have come into being, and nor would the Mughal Empire have followed in its wake. This historical memory is what keeps India focused on keeping Afghanistan as a friend and at the very least neutral.

      I do generally agree with your perspective about leaving Afghanistan to Pakistani devices if and only if Pakistan were not tempted to use Afghans as a tool in Kashmir. Unfortunately, India is NOT strong enough to force Pakistan to case and desist.

      BTW, one of the smarter decisions on the part of Indire Gandhi and the Indian elites was to make a rapid withdrawal from Bangladesh in the aftermath of the 1971 war.

      0
      1. Well i am not sure India’s strategic community really sees it thru the Mughal-Delhi Sultanate thing and all. But more really thru IC-814 plane hijacking . It was a known fact that Pakistan made Taliban do their dirty job, India fears the return of that type of partnership.

        Anyway the cost of having a “friendly” Afghanistan thru boots on ground etc is too high for anything substantial in return. Nor will the Taliban of tomorrow be the overwhelming force of the yesteryears. Anywhich way Afghanistan is just a small component of Pak’s strategy towards India, and its more of insurance policy.

        0
        1. Don’t you think that Pakistani policymakers know that a Taliban-esqe Afghanistan is bad for Pakistan? With all the extremism, refugees and gun culture that seeps into Pakistan? Also, ANA is 180,000 strong and even with all its faults do you think it is a pushover? Finally, how does Taliban renew its leadership at ‘field commander’ level? With such heavy attrition rate how does it keep replacing ‘talent’ so quickly? And if there is high rate of inflow in its ranks and with less number of Taliban neutralized, with withdrawal of America, can the Taliban grow to numbers that decisively tip the balance in their favor? Are Taliban better or worse (discount the violence) in governing than the current government? In my experience, problem solving(any kind of difficult problem solving) is a principle way for human minds/societies to reorganize. They try their intuition which almost always fail, then they are forced to reconsider their choices and ideas. Do you think Taliban might have any goal like economic growth after all these years of war?

          0
          1. 1) No they dont think so, every master “thinks” he can control his slave. If its something like last time Taliban were good patners for Pakistan. Apart from some non issues like Pak=Afghan border, they were on same page.
            2) ANA is mostly a joke. Even with US support it wasn’t able to win anything substantial. Though Taliban won’t be able to military over run the country like last time. This time their opponents are more prepared and strengthened.
            3) Taliban are surely worse on Govt front. Notwithstanding how much “progress” they have made in last decade, they are still miles behind even the current Afghan Govt. Many of Afghan economic problems are structural and the current Govt itself is struggling to pay its bills. That with its current lot of US educated people in Govt. I am skeptical how much Madrassa educated guys can turn it around.

            1+
  26. Big archaeological discovery near Varanasi: BHU team unearths 4000-year-old crafts village

    https://www.financialexpress.com/lifestyle/science/big-archaeological-discovery-near-varanasi-bhu-team-unearths-4000-year-old-crafts-village/1876478/

    “The Benaras Hindu University’s Department of Ancient Indian History, Culture and Archaeology which did a preliminary survey of the site in Babhaniyav village, 13 km from Varanasi, said they had found remnants of one of the settlements that have been mentioned in various literature surrounding the holy city.”

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  27. Found this amazing memoir by a Zimbabweian girl about her life in England, and how she desperately clung to it even when had to quit England.

    https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/zimbabwe-england-story-war-home-identity-200106071251177.html

    What is astonishing is that she is a child of Zimbabwean freedom fighters. Evidently she also belongs to Zimbabwean elite class going by the description given by her. And yet she was so desperate to become English. It tells something about the perceived prestige of belonging to a developed/western/white country.

    To the Browns it must sound familiar. Don’t we have the same fetish for all things phoren?

    Memorable lines..


    “My father simply wanted something that was his again and to leave behind the graceless pretence of England. He had grown tired of the smiles in which he saw veiled snarls, the words with their double meanings, how polite everyone was and was not. ”

    “But then, a few months after returning to Zimbabwe, my accent threatened to leave me; my friends told me it was fading, that I did not sound the same. I heard it too; my t’s were now hard when I said water. I tried to entice it to stay by using more slang than usual; sprinkling my sentences with words I had hardly ever used in England. I became a caricature.”

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