Open Thread – Brown Pundits

Please keep the other posts on topic. Use this for talking about whatever you want to talk about.

ZackNote: As per suggestions; I’m listing all the Posts Written since last week’s Open Thread (in Reverse Chronological Order):

  1. The Balto-Slavic & Indo-Iranian Connection
  2. Pakistani Psychosis
  3. Is it time for Asian Americans and Latino Americans to ask to be considered “white”? (b)
  4. Brexit and Democracy
  5. Indian Numismatics Browncast Podcast Coming Up –
  6. Notes on Brown Pundits “BrownCast”
  7. 1857: The Central Indian Campaign
  8. Watching Shtisel.. (and Turkish TV)
  9. Brown Pundits BrownCast episode 10, with Josiah Neeley
  10. the British “created” India according to this Coloniser
  11. Why doesn’t Arundhati Roy move to Pakistan?
  12. ‘In the milk of OBCs and Dalits, Muslims have added sugar’
  13. (Machine) Learning Biases
  14. American Muslims and Kamala Harris
  15. Various Asiatic raps
We average 2 posts a day making it a fairly prolific blog.

72 thoughts on “Open Thread – Brown Pundits”

  1. Congratulations to Novak Djokovic for his phenomenal win at Australian open. He is on the way to become the best tennis player in history. It seems that this sport is physically the most suitable for players who are Aryans descendants, who played for different countries and came close to the finals: Zverev (Germany), Raonic (Canada), Medvedev (Russia), Cilic (Croatia), Tsitsipas (Greece). There are also two very athletic excellent players of Indo-Aryan background who played in the final match – Ram (USA) and Sharma (Australia). We should also mention a great success of Rafael Nadal who is a Spanish Berber.

  2. Liked the new website design , but the text size is too small both for the post as well as comment section

    1. Razib quick Q regarding the speculated Bengali-Sinhalese DNA link.

      Going by the harappa DNA results most Bengalis have a significant North European and East Asian component which is absent in most Sinhalese (apart from those anomalies with recent dutch/portuguese/malay admixture).

      Could this mean that the prehistoric bengalis later mixed with east asians and more steppes enriched north indians at a much later date than 500 BC (the proposed date of Bengali migration to Sri Lanka). Does the data show that? I recall you mentioning that pre east asian mixed Bengalis were akin to some south indians.

        1. Thanks. Is there any similar later admixture event in the post 500 BC history of Bengalis to explain the absence of significant ‘North European’ DNA in most Sinhalese? Modern Bengalis are enriched with North European DNA to some extent (4% average according to Harappa World).

          The reason I am asking is that the DNA studies on the origins the Sinhalese are highly contradictory. Some postulate predominant South India origin:

          Others Bengali origin:

          I am not a geneticist to comment on the accuracy of the methods of the above studies.

          I am sure the answer lies somewhere in between, but where exactly between is the question.

      1. Karan,

        I think its probably an issue of geographical location of the sample.

        Once you figure out the answer to who is a Sinhalese, then you have insight.

        In the US (pre WW2) if you become English speaking, became Christian you were an American. However, if you sampled populations in say the Appalachians and Minnesota (Swede/Norwegian) you would get different DNA origins.

        Sri Lanka small as it may be was similar. Many immigrants over 2000 years. Become a Buddhist (and now Catholic), speak Sinhalese and you are a Sinhalese.

        example: Sarath Fonseka the Army Commander who won the war. He is part Salagama (Cinnamon Peelers) and Karave (Fisher caste/Mercenary), both relatively recent (during Portuguese and Dutch rule) immigrant communities to the coast from South India. Prabakaran too was Karaiyar ( Fisher caste/Mercenary). However, Prabhakaran was Hindu/Catholic.

        So depending on the geographic where of the DNA samples, you are going to get different origins.

        Endogamy seems to have been more of a concept, but not much in practice because of lax Hindu type morals. The concept of Endogamy was possibly a factor of increasing South Indian influence in the latter 500 years.

        1. “He is part Salagama (Cinnamon Peelers) and Karave (Fisher caste/Mercenary), both relatively recent (during Portuguese and Dutch rule) immigrant communities to the coast from South India.”

          Yes but a caveat of that, is that this documented south indian input into the Sinhalese was largely male mediated. I read that the karaiyar warriors married Sinhala women. The mitochondrial DNA evidence also supports this.

          1. >documented south indian input into the Sinhalese was largely male mediated.

            Agreed, it was not just South Indians.

            My late wifes ge (pronounced gay) name was MigelHewaGe. Ge in Sinhalese means of or house. So House of Migel the Soldier (Hewa) or Of Migel the Soldier. Her first husband was SusewHewaGe, i.e Of Susew (Sousa) the Soldier. Considered, pure Sinhala Buddhist, whole extended family were very light skinned (for Sri Lanka).

            The surnames such as De Silva, Fernando may have been given. The Ge/House name is more indicative of foreign male descent. eg. Hetti ((Chetty) (Hettige, LokuHettiGe) , south Indian origins.

    1. If the article is accurate, it doesn’t speak well of her management skills. But constantly berating her for previously-held and now-abandoned conservative positions is really disappointing. It sounds worse than the Inquisition. And her criticism of the Democratic senator was quite valid, but such articles never bother to delve into those details, and are instead content to smear her as being disloyal to her party.

    2. I don’t think Tulsi is out yet. We need to wait a few months and see. [ Inauthentic Bobby Jindal by contrast never had a shot. ]

      How many Democratic candidates will there be this year? More than twenty? Several of them are quite impressive moderates . . . but can any of them survive being grilled by the post modernist cultural marxists?

      Bernie should not run. Trump would smack him.

      In 2015 I liked Jim Webb. But was surprised that the democratic base was so hostile to him. When asked if he thought “all lives matter”, Jim didn’t even hesitate. He said “all lives mater.”

      When asked about affirmative action, he said affirmative action (by which he meant non socio-economic) should only go to people of old African American ancestry because of their particular history in America. For everyone else he pointed to the immense sacrifice and challenge his Vietnamese wife’s family had in moving to the USA without an American education. For everyone else Jim Webb said, “welcome to America!”

      Jim Webb was asked about the best moment in his life. He mentioned the way he had wasted two communist North Vietnamese (who the South Vietnamese hated). He said it with pride and no hesitation. The democratic debate crowd gasped in shock. [To my surprise.]

      Love Jim Webb.

      1. During the 2016 primary, Jim Webb defended the confederate statues. That was a big mistake.

        The Democratic party is moving increasingly leftward and candidates who don’t fit that trend have very little chance of success in the primaries.

        1. Kabir this has nothing to do with “left.” Post modernists cultural marxists are not left. There are many reasonable leftists. Eric Weinstein for example.

          I saw a not super bright cuacasian baizuo being interviewed on a high profile Indian show. They were being asked about tearing down old American statues.

          The baizuo (don’t want to name him) explained why the old American stutues need to be torn down in some length. The baizuo was also asked to detail how the American statues and symbols would be torn down.

          And then the Indian interviewer asked him how he thought SAARC mosques that are built on top of ancient pre Islamic religious/university/library sites should be similarly taken down.

          The baizuo was shocked. Slowly the baizuo’s mind started to work. He began to reconsider and step back from his position on tearing down old American statues and monuments.

          Tearing down ancient statues, sites and buildings is dangerous marxist post modernist stuff. We should stay as far away from it as possible. In some cases we can build plaques next to historic sites and give context to them. Going beyond that risks tearing the whole world down. Our 7.7 billion species has enough problems already.

          1. The point is that defending the confederate statues was extremely tone deaf at that time. Memorials to slave owners are extremely offensive to the African-American community. Anyone who wanted to win the African-American vote would have thought long and hard before defending this legacy.

            Personally, I don’t think statues need to be destroyed. They can be placed in museums and contexualized.

            Taking down statues of white supremacists is not the same as destroying places of worship of a minority religion so your analogy with India doesn’t hold.

            Finally, the Democratic base’s definition of “reasonable leftist” is obviously different from yours. “Moderate” candidates like Jim Webb are not the future of the party.

          2. Kabir, I don’t think you have the situational awareness to understand how tone def some of the things you write can appear from other perspectives.

            One of the main if not the main cause of global unease with Islamism is old memories of non muslims being taken as slaves by Islamists.

            We need to let go our species’ slavery past. We need to love and respect former slave owners with all our hearts, all our souls, all our mind, and all our strength.

            Today many Islamists still believe in slavery and justify it from the holy Koran and Sahih Bukhari. It makes zero sense to get angry at them, be disrespectful, use ad hominems against them. We need to softly, lovingly and respectfully engage in dialogue with them. And gradually open their minds to new possibilities over months and years.

            Mimzy Vidz has spoken eloquently on this. Over the past 30 years a majority of all rapes and molestation of UK younger than 18 females were by Pakistani males. Not all Pakistani males but a small subset of them who believed that what they were doing was justified by Islamic scripture verses on sexual slavery. Mimzy spoke about the need to have dialogue with this subset of Pakistani males to gently over time persuade them to view sexual slavery differently.

            Few engage in this dialogue now and everyone suffers for it. The Pakistani male subset might quote the holy Koran and Sahih Bukhari about sexual slavery. They might claim that the younger than 18 UK female was nonmuslim and spiritually helped by association with a high character muslim. In other words seizing them by conquest was for “THEIR” benefit.

            The right response is not ad hominems, but melting their hearts with love and respect. Dialogue. Gradually opening their mind to new ways of interpreting the holy Koran and Hadiths.

            This process needs to be applied to all aspects of life and society.

            The African continent is being torn apart by sadness on the part of nonmuslim Africans about their ancestors being slaves of Islamists. All Africans need to forgive their former slave owners and send them love and respect.

            The decedents of Islamists are not responsible for the actions of their ancestors.

            Non muslims need to love and respect muslims, period.

          3. “Mimzy Vidz has spoken eloquently on this. Over the past 30 years a majority of all rapes and molestation of UK younger than 18 females were by Pakistani males. Not all Pakistani males but a small subset of them who believed that what they were doing was justified by Islamic scripture verses on sexual slavery. Mimzy spoke about the need to have dialogue with this subset of Pakistani males to gently over time persuade them to view sexual slavery differently.”

            AnAn the UK Pakistani men involved in these rape gangs are not quoting islamic scriptures to justify their actions. I bet most of them haven’t even read the Koran (in translation from arabic).

            However, they are following the islamic anti-kuffar indoctrination they have received from birth. They also view non-muslim women who do not follow the islamic ideal of covering up, as being sluts worthy of being raped.

            The justification of sex slaves in the Koran is just a coincidence.

          4. We are talking about confederate statues in the US. That has nothing to do with “Islamism”. Why are you bringing in Muslims on an issue that has nothing to do with them? And I’m the tone deaf one?

            As for “loving and respecting” slave owners. No thanks. You put a ridiculous amount of faith in “love and respect”, which is not how reality works.

    1. I’m sure Nike didn’t do this on purpose and it is a coincidence that their logo looks like the name of God. But they should be more careful and realize how offensive this is to Muslims (that is if they want to sell shoes to Muslims, which presumably they do).

      Members of other communities would also be upset if their spirtual symbols were placed on the bottom of a shoe (which is considered unclean in many cultures).

      1. In the east the feet are holy. What is wrong with having divine spiritual symbols on our shoes? [Not arguing with you. Asking for clarification.]

        1. Shoes get dirty and if the name of God is on the bottom of them, it will get dirty too.

          In any case, Nike would do better not to get into this kind of controversy. It just requires a little bit of extra sensitivity.

        2. This is a silly question. Hindus – at least the more sensitive among them – would get mad too if, for instance, pictures of Hindu gods were to be depicted on chappals.

          1. “Mahmood Ghazni, a Turkish sultan of the province of Ghazni in Afghanistan, attacked India seventeen times in a span of twenty-five years between the years AD 1001-26. Somnath was a particularly coveted target for him. Muslim chronicles indicate that 50,000 Hindus died in the battle for Somnath in AD 1024. The Shiva lingam was destroyed by the sultan himself. After the battle, Mahmood and his troops are believed to have carried away vast amounts of gold and other riches stored in the temple. They are also said to have taken Hindu statues and buried them at the entrance of a mosque in Ghazni so that the faithful could trample on them.”

            In the Muslim world, trampling feet are definitely not seen as a good thing.

          2. Exactly. This is not specific to Muslims. Putting religious symbols on the bottom of shoes is generally not a smart idea (not that I think that was Nike’s intention).

          3. Hindus should not be offended. Sometimes the sandals worn by deities in temples have yantras (sacred geometries) on them.

            We are not discussing pictures but symbols and letters. Many Indian consumer interfacing brands are named after Gods or have modified yantras on them.

            In general people should try to get less offended.

            In the east the feet are the holiest part of the body. Tied to bhu-devi or the earth.

  3. Razib, can the number of recent posts on the top right be increased in number from the past five blogposts to a higher number of blogposts? Say the last ten articles?

      1. The increase of the number of Recent Posts is good. Maybe not needed dates (to save the space) but it is not essential. I would increase the number of Recent Comments to at least 20 because I (probably others too) usually select which comments (people and topics) I would read. If you don’t read BP one day or if there are instantly many comments on some topic, all these comments become invisible.

  4. How the ‘Land of Free’ was built

    “The team reviewed all the population data it could find on how many people were living in the Americas prior to first contact with Europeans in 1492.

    It then assessed how the numbers changed in following decades as the continents were ravaged by introduced disease (smallpox, measles, etc), warfare, slavery and societal collapse.

    It’s the UCL group’s estimate that 60 million people were living across the Americas at the end of the 15th Century (about 10% of the world’s total population), and that this was reduced to just five or six million within a hundred years”

    1. VijayVan,

      Apparently life was not that great for some of the Native Americans in North America. See
      La relación of Álvar Núñez Cabeza de Vaca (1528-1538)

      A very interesting theory from an article in 2002. American Prairie and Amazon forest have been shaped by humans over thousands of years, and are not pristine environments as previously thought. The Native Americans burned the Prairie Grasses to create a habitat ideal for bison, elk and deer; i.e. a gigantic farm for meat. In the Amazon Forest, Amazonians created large tracts of very fertile super soil (Terra Preta wiki) in an infertile area.

      The initial evidence for Prairie burning was as follows.

      de Soto’s travels thru South East US in 1539 did not see bison.
      Archaeology of settlements shows very little bison/elk bones
      Disease brought in by Soto and crowd (and pigs) kills off the Native Americans.
      100 years later French explorers in the South East US saw no traces of man instead huge herds of bison
      Conclusion: Native Americans kept bison population down. After Native Americans died of European diseases the bison numbers exploded.

      1. Sbaarkum
        Prairie Indians were great hunters of bisons over large areas and they are now reduced to reservations. Pity the new US nation could not find a ‘job’ and role consistent with their traditions. The Indian caste system , for all it’s faults, would never have killed people in large numbers and would have let them live in their social/religious traditions with some adjustments to the larger society.

        1. Given this is a desperate attempt to make Indians feel good about enslaving SCs and BCs (hey, at least I did not kill you, my people let you live for being slaves for 20 centuries), we need to resolve the facts first.

          The count of Indians in Americas since 1492 has been a field of historical study over a hundred years. The first systematic guesstimate was by Smithonian, by George Mooney in 1928, and above Rio Grande, he estimated 1.15 million people. Alfred Kroeber in 1950s extended it to entire Americas and came up to a lowball number of 8.4 million. Anthropologist Henry Dobyns went the other way, and just estimated 95% reduction in population in 16th century and came up with an estimate of 90-112 million in Americas, with about 12 million above Rio Grande. THis was more than the entire population of the world in 1500. William Denevan of UW has published all of the theories and models in one book, and estimated 54 million people in Americas, but 3.8 million above Rio Grande. Why the low numbers above Rio Grande? a complete list of all tribes, means of survival, and agricultural practices have been published in anthologies, and it was possible to give an error bar and estimate in 1500.

          The Indians in Americas have not disappeared completely, and the Indian percentage in population genetics varies from a few percentage north of Rio Grande to almost 100% by Bolivia.

          In contrast, do we know what was the population of ASI in 1500 BC? How many people do we know have been killed? Does maintaining 70% of the population as untouchable and close to slave-like conditions, is superior to murder in which way? I am for honest discussions, but throwing these numbers with a motive of establishing Indian upper class superiority, is just morally wrong.

          1. “Given this is a desperate attempt to make Indians feel good about enslaving SCs and BCs ”

            Were Jats, Marathas, Patels,Yadavs,Rajus,Nairs,Kurmis enslaved? Why do you keep on harping on BCs as though they have the same experience as dalits? Is it because considering their political strength , they can no longer harp on victim hood of the “bahujan” ? That you have to create a mythical “enslavement” narrative for them? That having been in power in Tamil Nadu for 70 years and suppressing dalits and still trying to potray its a “north indian hindu,hindi upper caste ,tamil brahmin interloper ” hegemony.

            “In contrast, do we know what was the population of ASI in 1500 BC? ”

            Do we know the population of Slavic population before Magyars came? Do we know the population of greeks in Anatolia before the turks came? And how do you know all the population of ASI are BCs ? The Jats, Ahirs have the highest percentage of Steppes, and last i checked they were categorized as BCs. Or have you taken upon yourself to categorize who is BCs and who is not?(from your comment it seems like that)

            ” Does maintaining 70% of the population as untouchable and close to slave-like conditions, is superior to murder in which way?”

            This is what happens when you live in Lemuria where own experience of having a small upper caste population is automatically transformed into whole of India and numbers like 70 percent is pulled out from a hat. Quite ironic considering you have a problem with ” throwing these numbers with a motive of establishing Indian upper class superiority, “

          2. To Saurav below

            I am convinced by your line of arguments

            Some OBCs had some power some time ago, thus all shudras were never under the yoke, and undeserving of empathy.

            Dalits… they deserve their position; in any event, some OBCs somewhere suppress Dalits, so it does not matter.

            People of Lemuria (sp.) are one off from rest of India, and may never ever comment on this blog post about India.

            lastly, the battle was lost in 1500 BC; forever, the three upper castes shall rule!

      2. Thanks for sharing sbarrkum. You are one of the most brilliant commentators at BP.

        I suspected this was true (the American Prarie and Amazon being human shaped, and their dying from diseases transforming the local natural ecosystem). But it is good to see some solid research on it.


        “Prairie Indians were great hunters of bisons over large areas”. Some tribes were. Some were not. Many tribes were farmers or skilled laborers and lived in technologically advanced cities. There are many ancient pyramids throughout Canada and the US.

        “and they are now reduced to reservations.” They did get large tracts of lands in the reservations. I would like to share many native American grievances that I have heard:

        1) In some cases they were cut off from their ancestors.

        2) In most cases they were converted into Christians or otherwise weaned off their culture. Native Americans did not get freedom of religion until the 1900s. And that too only in the USA! Many Latin American governments still ban native American religions. Many Latin American countries are worse than the USA. Native Americans can’t even speak up about it or they will be called “racist” by post modernist marxists. Native Americans have many names for people who have Native American ancestry but are culturally European, Canadan, American or Latin American. And they are not compliments!

        3) The reservations today are littered with large churches that provide all sorts of services to native Americans and try to convert them.

        4) Most native Americans are still so afraid of getting punished that they still practice their religion in secret. They keep their records secret too.

        5) Native American ancient psychedelics are often banned by stupid caucasian baizuo. Ancient native American herbs, medical treatments, soil fertilizer, agricultural techniques too.

        6) Now some of these same chemicals, herbs and medicines are with very slight modifications being patented! Forcing Native Americans to pay patents for their own ancient science and technologies.

        7) Very disrespectful dumb academics are trying to misrepresent themselves as exemplars of native American culture while trying to destroy it from within

        8) Young reservation native American minds are being colonized with inferiority complex to damage their self confidence. The are brainwashed to hate their own culture, to deconstruct their own culture as oppressive immoral amoral systems.

        9) Vast number of native American children were coercively adopted by American (and Canadian, Latin American) parents and brought up culturally American (or Canadian or Mexican etc.)

        10) Native Americans were forced to send their children to “American” schools (now mostly post modernist marxist). If they didn’t comply their children were taken away from them by social services who accused them of child abuse.

        11) Native American children are being dumbed down watching not very bright starlets who have millions of social media followers who watch them eat bananas.

        12) Native American children are being harmed by listening to rap and other entertainment that promotes less than optimum values, anti nerd and geek sentiment, anti science and technology sentiment, disrespect of elders, out of wedlock births, divorce, inferiority complex and all the rest.

        13) Most native Americans married non native Americans and their culture in most cases was not passed along to future generations

        14) Casinos

        15) Parents who don’t want their kids addicted to mind altering prescription meditaiton for mental illness are accused of child abuse by social service workers. Their children are often taken away from them.

        Sure many native American grievances are not unique to native Americans anymore. They apply to caucasian Americans too. But these are massive problems.

    2. VijayVan, among the native Americans I have met, their largest grievance was the effort to destroy their religion, culture and civilization . . . not the deaths of their ancestors.

      Very little deep analysis has been done on pre 1492 Americas populations, cultures, civilizations, technologies. First the Vatican and then post modernist marxists found these studies dangerous. Native American cultures and religions did not have a Vatican ethnocentric or marxist ethnocentric gaze. Their spiritual understanding of humanity, life, nature and the universe were too offensive, Nazi, racist, hegemonic, exploitative, oppressive, etc.

      The marxists and post modernists (and the Roman Catholics before them) engaged in a form of cultural genocide to try to wipe out their religion, culture, technology; and replace it with a newly created marxist perspective that masqueraded as and pretended to be native american while in fact being very different.

      I like to meet native American spiritualists and their various alters. They have a deep wisdom and their own narrative mythological histories. One native American chief I met said that his people’s historical records go back 200,000 years (they moved to North America 15,000 years ago according to his records). Sadly most North and South American academics view these mythological histories with great anger, hostility and scorn.

      The time has come to collect all these histories from all the remaining extant native American tribes and carefully study them. Especially relative to each other (many tribes have their own “Itihasa equivalents”) and relative to ancient Egyptian, ancient Sumerian, ancient Serbian and ancient Arya records. Do any of the histories or stories correlate with each other?

      What can we learn from them? What technologies can we backwardly induct by studying them? How advanced were their mind sciences, herbal sciences, brain sound therapy sciences, brain electro therapy sciences, psychedelic brain sciences? What was their advanced multiple source causation chemical and herbal sciences? What were the limitations and missing gaps in native American sciences and technologies? How did they manage intellectual property sharing and collaboration between different technological clusters [I think imperfectly]? How did they manage trading between different clusters [I think imperfectly]? How did they manage diplomacy and war between different groups of native Americans?

      Very little real work is happening in North and South American academia is happening in these areas and it is a terrible shame.

      Some native American alters (spiritual groups who keep the ancient ways, narrative histories, mythologies, technologies) have expressed an interest to collaborate with scholars of ancient Egypt, Sumeria, and Arya Varsha to compare notes. To find out what similarities exist between themselves and other advanced ancient civilizations.

      India, China, Asia in general (including Turkey, Iraq, Iran and everything to the east such as Japan, South Korea, Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia), Serbia, Greece, Italy, Egypt need to take the lead in this collaboration.


      VijayVan, what is your estimate of the population of North and South America pre 1492? My own estimates are much higher than most. My estimate is that about 95% of the population of North and South America died because of imported disease epidemics in the century and a half after 1492.

      Diseases spread throughout North and South America because of migration patters, trading routes and travel. I am skeptical that many died because of diseases after about 1650 AD. After 1650 AD (and long before that in many parts of North and South America), the native American population probably grew rapidly again over now sparsely populated lands.

      I think this accounts for the loss of ancient technologies, sciences, civilization, culture, language and historical records across the Americas.

      “warfare, slavery and societal collapse.” Is this mostly a reference to what the roman catholic Spanish, Portuguese, French and Dutch did pre 1650 AD?

      My memory might be wrong, however I believe that Papal bulls banned the taking of native American slaves in North and South America in the 1400s and 1500s.

      The Papal bulls authorized the buying of slaves from the “legitimate” “legal” (mostly Islamist) owners in Africa and the transportation of those slaves to North and South America. And that too only non Christian and non muslim African slaves with a few exceptions.

      The Europeans had a detailed developed legal systems. Someone was either a slave or not a slave. Slaves can only be bought from the legal owners of slaves. If someone does not have legal documents proving that they owned a slave, then how can the slave be bought from them?

      North and South America did have indentured labor. Or workers who sold their services for a specific period of time in return for something (money for their family, passage to a new place, education). However these were temporary slaves who would eventually become free people. Their children would not be born slaves. Many Europeans and Native Americans chose to become indentured labor.

    3. “It’s the UCL group’s estimate that 60 million people were living across the Americas at the end of the 15th Century (about 10% of the world’s total population), and that this was reduced to just five or six million within a hundred years”

      Recently, one reader cynically commented (does this on regular basis) that one nation, which (allegedly) had a great ancient history in Europe and Asia is now a small nation next to Bosnia, Croatia, etc.

      Considering that ancient Serbs occupied almost the whole Europe between Baltic, Atlantic, Black Sea, British Isles, North Africa, Asia Minor, the question is how many of them actually lived in Europe. In the first millennium, they were subjected to multiple genocides, especially in western part of Europe. There are specific details and many documents (will be presented at different occasion) about this, including assimilations.

      The estimate is that between 30-60 millions of Serbs were killed in this period in Europe. Millions were assimilated (Germans are 70% of Serbian origin so as at least a half of Hungarians, many Greeks, Frenches, Scandinavians). For e.g. Prussians were Germanised in the 12th c.AC and until almost 200 years ago they spoke Serbian and many still have Serbian surnames. All Slavic nations (Russians, Polish, Czechs, Romanians, 70% of Bulgarians) are Serbian offshoots and preserved their languages (except Romanians) very similar to Serbian. We should not forget Celts all around the world who in 99+% lost their original language. It is less known (can be found in old Chinese documents) that millions of Serbs died in almost 1000 years of fighting with Chinese and Mongolian.

      This is a rarely approached historical perspective which explains many things in the past. That is the case with English genocides in North America, Australia, Africa, Asia (Spanish in S.America).

      Anyone knows how many people died in English genocide in India?

      1. /how many people died in English genocide in India/


        While the British were loath to make straightforward killing machines , the colonial government made a number of famines possible in which untold millions died. Many times this was due to changes in the land ownership and tax collection methods. The colonialist’s policy was ‘squeeze them dry’.

        The Bengal famine of the 1940s was due to diverting the food supplies available locally to allied soldiers.

        1. VijayVan I think much of the blame for the Bengal Famine should go to Jinnah and the muslim parties that misgoverned Bengal in 1942 and 1943.

          The Viceroy devolved much power to the local governments elected in 1937.

          The English diverted food to Bengal and prevented the famine from getting much worse.

          The English failing was not the immediate Bengal famine crises but the failure of England over generations to surge the capacity of Indian governance institutions, the Indian police, the Indian private sector, Indian civil society, and planning for major unknown future natural disasters.

          The Indian Army was generally competent and able to prevent the Bengal famine from becoming worse. But here too the English did not start meritocratically promoting Indian officers through the ranks before the late 1930s. This was a terrible mistake.

          Note that Pakistan and Bangladesh were also woefully unprepared to deal with famines and did an awful job. Remember the 1972-1974 Bangladeshi economic collapse and famine?

          Fortunately the USA and India bailed Bangladesh out many times.


          Sheer English incompetence and stupidity resulted in many Indian deaths. Per capita Indian income hardly rose between 1858 and 1947. The English deserve blame for this. [And yeah I get that the English did not govern much of India because of princely states.]

        2. Recently, I wrote about English genocide in India and other places. There is evidence that for 185 years of ruling India, English killed and starved 85 millions of people. English never apologised for any of their multiple genocides around the world. Only 22 countries in the world (according to English sources) have not experienced English aggression. One day English Parliament and government must apologize for their past deeds. Such requests are already arising although the current generation of India’s expats still avoid raising the voice, probably to preserve their conformity and not to risk good positions, new passports and rejections from local society. But maybe the next generations will ask English for such account.

          That is their debt to their ancestors. I believe that this thing exist in Hindu society while in Muslim, I think, does not exist. To my knowledge (from Yugoslavia) I know that they try to bury their dead the same day, as soon as possible to leave the cemetery and never visit it again. There was a cult of ancestors in Serb (and other Slavic) culture and it may exist in Hindu as well (I need to study this more). Repaying our debts to ancestors is a civilisation’s question. I published this link before:

  5. Is there a way to view who liked a particular comment?
    Hovering over the count sometimes shows 1 icon but it’s not consistent.

    Am I missing something?

  6. AnAn,

    Is there a way I can contact you personally, off this website? Could you consider providing me your email id (I feel like you have given your email id contact information to a few others at some points in the past by some means before but I have not been able to land on the posts right now; you could also consider directing me to those posts by all means if that option is better for you)? You have been very friendly to me here and I would like to contact you regarding certain personal things to do with health, general well-being, etc.

    I was debating a lot if I should do this but I finally decided that I should give it a try. Administrators, please delete this comment if you deem that it is inappropriate.

  7. Vijay, do you think OBCs, SCs, STs are oppressed today? If so how?

    If you wish to post your response as a article on BP, that would also be cool.

    The ancient scriptures (including Vedas) are replete with many individual Avarnas (those without Varna . . . some today call avarna untouchable or Dalit) who become twice born, including Brahmin.

    There are also many examples of people born Brahmin or Kshatriya who become Avarna through their actions.

    Many of the greatest modern saints of SAARC are Avarna. Heck many of them are Sufis! Many of the great Hindu/Buddhist/Jain/Sikh lineages have Sufis inside them.

    Today Varna means little. Give a little money and many, many temples and religious organizations across India will make an Avarna (foreigner, muslim, christian, untouchable, dalit) a “Brahmin” for whatever that is worth.

    What is the best way to help STs, SBs and OBCs today?

    I would argue that the best way is to facilitate them surging their own capacity, merit, competence, physical health, mental health, intelligence. What is wrong with transforming STs, SBs and OBCs into true Brahmin Varna Dharma, Kshatriya Varna Dharma, Vaishya Varna Dharma. Godesses and God transforming the world. Achieving miracles beyond our grandest imaginations.

    Or, if our brains do not explode first, transcending Brahmin Varna itself. As Jesus, John the Baptist, Elisha, Elijah, Moses, and Mohammed pbuh did. Or not. Every individual has to choose for themselves.

  8. Karan, please read a lot of the material put out by Quillam (one of the largest UK muslim organizations) on the rape and molestation of under age UK females by Pakistani males.

    The Pakistani males knew about the Koranic and Hadith verses on sexual slavery and justified their actions based on these verses. In many cases they believed that they were “helping” these under age non muslim females and bringing spirituality into their lives.

    You can read a lot of Quilliam material on this. You can also listen to some of Mimzy’s podcasts on this.

    Mimzy also explained that many Saudis justify their physical relationships with nonmuslim female servants with Koranic verses on slavery. Many Saudis still treat their servants as slaves.


    Kabir wrote: “As for “loving and respecting” slave owners. No thanks. You put a ridiculous amount of faith in “love and respect”, which is not how reality works.”

    We have to do this and forgive Islamists for all their past misdeeds against moderate muslims, minority muslims and nonmuslims. We also have to forgive Islamists for slavery. We need to love and respect Islamists. Islamists are human beings after all with hearts that melt when loved.

    We also have to forgive previous Popes and the Roman Catholic Church for their role in slavery.

    We need to forgive all the former slave owners across Latin America, the Caribbean, Canada, America, Europe and Africa.

    I dare say a few African ancestry slave owners were neither muslim nor Christians. We need to forgive them too.

    We also need to forgive all nonmuslim Asian slave owners.

    What other choice do we have?

    1. AnAn can you please point me to these Quilliam articles/reports please which state this. Thanks

      1. Quillium has produced massive amounts of content on the raping and molestation of females in the UK by Pakistani males. It would take a vast amount of time to review them. Some of them are referenced in the article and comment section:

        A couple of religious reasons are given for the molestations of non muslim under age females:
        —the scriptural basis of having physical relationships with 9 year old pre-pubescent females
        —the scriptural basis of being able to capture non muslim females via conquest

        I would also watch Mimzy’s videos on the subjects.

    2. Ok i read the Quilliam report on Pakistani rape gangs in UK, i can’t find any mention of Koranic justification being used in the report. Is there another article with this info?

  9. Anand Giridharadas: “The new elite’s phoney crusade to save the world – without changing anything”

    – only one percent of the richest have more wealth than the rest of the planet together;
    -the 26 richest people have more money than 3.8 billion people together;
    – the number of billionaires in the ten years after the global economic crisis has doubled;
    – 2,200 billionaires in 2018 became 12% richer, and that the poorest half of humanity became poorer by another 11%.

    1. Milan I strongly disagree with Anand Giridharadas. This comment helps explain some of the reasons why:

      When technology advances among one group of people, the entire world benefits from it. The entire world can access this new technology via royalties. Plus eventually all intellectual property becomes open source.

      What I support is reducing the number of years patents are valid for. McCain was one of the few politicians who argued for this. The world as a whole greatly benefits when technology goes off patent.

      I also support a large global fund (perhaps funded $1 trillion per year) that buys out strategic patents to benefit the world as a whole.

      The world also needs to improve physical health, mental health, intelligence, capacity, competence and merit. This would greatly socio-economically benefit the world.

  10. Karan, Quilliam is a moderate muslim and pro muslim think tank.

    They are arguing for moderate interpretations of the Islamic scriptures and fighting against Islamist ones. They are arguing that secular law and norms are Islamic and Shariah. They engage in dialogue with Islamists. They don’t concede the Islamist claim (about age 9 and conquest of nonmuslim females). They won’t emphasize the Koranic and Hadith verses that the Islamists do. They respond when these verses are cited, however.

    Many Pakistanis and Quilliam tried to fight the molestation of under age females. Initially they were viciously attacked by nonmuslims who called them “racist” etc. This was to the detriment of Pakistani UK nationals since it increased the “reputational” costs ethnic Pakistanis later endured.

    Molesting and raping under age females in not natural human behavior. Most humans would feel guilty if they did this. Most humans need an internal rational (even if imperfect) to engage in this behavior.

    Listening to Mimzy Vidz helped me understand why they were behaving this way. I think the way to deal with this challenge is through respectful loving dialogue. Let them quote the Islamic scriptures. We should not impugn their character but continue dialogue with them. In time their hearts will melt. Where the heart leads, the mind can follow.

  11. Hello BPs:

    Here is an AIT (of China) that actually might be true. Here is a dissertation completed under the Sinologist Victor Mair (Tocharian mummy frame) on the presence of horses and chariots during the 1500 BCE Shang and Zhou dynasties.

    Xiang Wan liberally cites Anthony and the Mittani Indo Aryans, of course under the premise of the AIT (of South Asia). Could the Shang/Zhou be the equivalent of the “Mittani Indo Aryans” to the EAST? The timing definitely matches.

    1. Could the Shang/Zhou be the equivalent of the “Mittani Indo Aryans” to the EAST? The

      yes. genetically tho the evidence is weaker probably because the chariot was cultural diffusion as it was into egypt. basically the light chariot spread fast once invented.

      1. Another good article, bravo MMK. I will read carefully but for now:

         Zeus is the sovereign of the universe, the father of lesser gods, who lives on Olympus. Olympus is actually a symbol of heaven.
        ## Mt Olympus was not in Greece it was on Serbian territory

         Zeus had many children. Some of them were gods: Apollo, Athena, Dionysus, Aphrodite, and Ares, etc. Some of them were demigods, such as Hercules.
        ## Dionysus (=God from Nis) was the first Aryan leader, Hercules (=Serbon) was the 2nd Aryan leader

         *Tees also had earthly children: Xie4 and Qi4, the ancestors of Shang and of Zhou respectively. His children of divinity were lost from the historical record, but there is a fragment in archaic documents that offers us a clue: *tees had two children who possessed preternatural strength. The story is familiar to most Chinese people.
        ## it is interesting that the timeline of Shang and Zhou is the same as Dyonysus and Hercules

         Similarity of their sacrificial ceremonies: The sacrifices to Zeus and to *tees are extremely similar. The well-known Olympic Games, the grand athletic competitions, were originally held at Mt. Olympus in ancient Greece… The ceremony is identical with the one that was offered to *tees in the Delta of the Yellow River in ancient times
        ##Olympic games are a copy of much older Serbian Triyam introduced by Mino, the ruler of Mino civilisation

         ” … L deus stems from an IE *deiwo, whereas the very closely linked Latin dies, day, a day, and Jupiter stem from IE *dieu- or *dei-: cf. Sanskrit devas, a god, and the synonyms Old Persian deywis or deiwas, … Old Celtic *dewos or *divos.
        ## Latin, Sanskrit, Old Persian, Old Celtic – the common denominator= Serbian

         The ancient Greek God, Zeus, did not present himself first in the Homeric epic. In Mycenaean Linear B, the names of Zeus, Hera, Poseidon and Dionysus, etc. are referred (Mackendrick: 2000, p. 81). This kind of writing was used around 1300 BC; the Trojan War did not break out until more than one hundred years later. The fact shows us that the worship of Zeus can be traced to a very early time among the Indo-European people.
        ## of course, it is a Greek replica, the Serbian original is much older

         Old Persian is a branch of ancient Indo-European. That peoples’ belief must come from the archaic European system.
        ## =Serbian

         About 1500 BC, Aryans who originally lived in the steppe beside the Black Sea invaded the delta of the Indian River and the Ganges River, and brought their civilization there. Early Brahmanism had a historical relationship with the original religion of the Proto-Indo-European people. Brahmanism built no temples, and it did not set up any worshipped image. The peoples’ worshipping of *tees in the Delta of the Yellow River was done also without an image. They sacrificed only to images in their minds.
        ## bravo to the author of article (who were they? see bellow)

         Taking all the facts above together, the historical conclusion should be clear. Around the early second millennium BC, the people who lived in the steppe on the shore of the Black Sea worshipped the great God *Zeus. They overspread their territory in various directions and were almost invincible in their time. Holding high their God * Zeus, they drove their wing-footed chariots, brandished their bronze swords, and conquered the Balkan peninsula to the south, rushed into Asia Minor and the Iranian Plateau to the southeast, and swept the Delta of the Indian River up to the bank of the Ganges. Of course, certain historical details have gotten lost during the subsequent millennium. Hence the author of this paper has endeavoured, through the application of comparative religion and linguistics, to supplement the history of the Indo-European expansion: they strode over the steppe of Middle Asia as well, trod through the Tian Shan Mountains, and brought their civilisation to the Delta of the Yellow River.
        ## # ———-bravo (but, this is not Greek’s Zeus, it was the original, Greeks still do not recognise that Aryan expeditions existed because they happened before they entered the history)

         Someone asks: “According to what you have said, in the prehistoric period, is it true that Indo-Europeans came to the Delta of the Yellow River from the West?” Answer: “Yes. And they indelibly affected the civilisation of the area.”
        ## ————bravo

         I previously have pointed out considerable historical linguistic evidence for the close relationship between the Old Chinese and Indo-European language
        ## ———-bravo: Aryans brought the Serbian language

    2. There are couple sentences from referred PhD dissertation:
       The horse also serves as a crucial topic in Chinese mythology and cosmology, in part derived from its interrelations with the Northern people
       Most Chinese documents on military thought and chronicles of this time mention chariot and cavalry battles
       This dissertation provides an overview of the transition the horse brought into China
       Although there has been a consensus that the horse initially was domesticated on the Steppe
       I have demonstrated that the symbiosis of the horse and pastoralist people greatly facilitated contacts between the Steppe and China
       I discussed the practice of horseback riding and the advent of cavalry in the Warring States period.
       In Anthony (2007), the horse is depicted as the main companion of the Indo-Europeans when they spread across the Eurasian continent in late prehistory
       The presence of horse-related materials in the cemeteries of the Northern people is ubiquitous, which highlights the aristocratic monopoly of horses in the cultural spheres of the Shang and the Zhou In the following centuries, the horse finally was introduced to the Ordos region around the end of the Zhukaigou culture, i.e., ca. 1200 BCE when the newly equipped Northern people encounter the lately developed Shang kingdom.
       Tian Ji’s Chariot Races – a case of the horse’s use in games

      In several occasions I wrote about Serbian encounters with Chinese (and Mongolian) people in parallel with their migration to Hindustan. This PhD indirectly confirms my writings. Several months ago I wrote that one dynasty in China was Aryan (it is called Babylonian period) but I mentioned that India’s scholars should study this because I assume this as India’s history. I will investigate if this dynasty is Shang. There is also a story of Tian Ji chariot races who, I believe, is a Serbian clan. I wrote about this recently in a context that one of his 5 sons was Karan.

      This is pretty good PhD but it is missing key links. He wrote about Northern people (sometimes Steppe) but he does not say who were they, which language they spoke. He does not say which dynasty was founded by ‘northern people’ and which rulers and dukes were of ‘northern’ origin. He wrote about battles (with use of cavalry) but he does not say which battles were between ‘northern’ and Chinese.

      I have much information about hundreds of Serbian tribes, about their battles with Mongolian and Chinese, about territorial organisation, about concords and periods of peace and cooperation. I also have a thousand of Serbian toponyms in China and Tibet. Chinese were very aggressive, initially they were weaker but later assimilated many Serbian tribes (there are now blond and blue-eyes Chinese), many Serbs later escaped to the north to Siberia (today’s Siberians are originally Serbs, the name of Siberia was derived from Serbian name, today’s descendants physically remind us of their ancestors – e.g. tennis player Maria Sharapova or Siberians who decided Stalingrad’s battle).

      This PhD does not fit in OIT model and I am not sure what was the MMK’s intention (good work MMK). Few of these Aryans descendants after thousands of years returned to the old homeland with ritual songs from their previous SA homeland. Their ritual songs are known to MMK. If there is some interest I can translate some of them. OIT proponents can be leaders in uncovering ancient SA history by accepting the Aryan’s existence. Otherwise the time will run over them.

      1. “This PhD does not fit in OIT model and I am not sure what was the MMK’s intention (good work MMK). ”

        Thank you.

        It is not expected to completed under Victor Mair. The point is, IF OIT (or OSAT more accurately) were to become accepted, we would have South Asia and (parts of Central Asia at the height of the bronze age when chariotry was at full speed) sending out migrations in almost EVERY direction.

        “I also have a thousand of Serbian toponyms in China and Tibet. Chinese were very aggressive, initially they were weaker but later assimilated many Serbian tribes (there are now blond and blue-eyes Chinese), many Serbs later escaped to the north to Siberia (today’s Siberians are originally Serbs, the name of Siberia was derived from Serbian name”

        This is all fine with me except the racial part of it (blue eyed blond Chinese?!) . Proto Germanic and Proto Balto Slavic could be the ones who could have brought domesticated animals,agricultural, metallurgy, etc to the yellow river basin from THEIR north west as they were trekking on their northern route to Europe out of South Asia (of course). The western route generated the Anatolians, Italo Celtics, Greek, Iranians, Armenians etc. Igor TB is already on the hunt for Sino Tibetan loans in Germanic (tausen=thousand etc). The Chinese civilization may not be as old as it is generally assumed. And that is why the AIT of China may actually be TRUE. There IS evidence of intrusive horses and chariots there which is simply not the case for South Asia.

        Here is a popular Khan Academy video on the Shang dynasty.

        Now imagine the red arrows at 2:27 fanning OUT.

        1. MMK, I think we made a progress. Huge!!! We are now all in agreement that Aryans came to China (Yellow river), brought civilization, metallurgy, horses, etc. They also founded at least one of Chinese dynasties. When I mentioned blonde and blue-eyed Chinese (actually assimilated ancient Serbs) I did so in this context to confirm the previous facts. There are on youtube few films presenting these blue-eyed and blonde Chinese.

          From other side you have again problems with logic. How likely is that Aryans passed through SA close to Hindustan and going to Tibet, Nepal, Himalaya and China without going to India? Simply impossible. And when chariots were invented, SA (?) people started travelling in all directions creating on the way Anatolians, Italo-Celtic, Greeks, etc??? Did they meet on this way Aryans from north-west(???) and maybe informed them that they are actually going to places which they left? In which language they were communicating?

          You still have problems with some terms, who are Balto-Slavic, Italo-Celtic, what is the north-west, where was metallurgy developed, when all these happened? Which language those China-Aryans spoke? Re: Germany&Sino – Tibetan: German language was formed in the 14th c.AC and evolved from Serbian (so as Latin). What (and when) is the connection between Germany and Tibet? Why not check a thousand of Serbian toponyms in Tibet (any German?) and Serbian words and voices (for e.g. Dj, as in Djokovic, Gina, Giotto, etc). All German, English and other European languages connection with Sanskrit are via Serbian language! Your only source is Igor, it would be better to diversify a bit your sources.

  12. Mayuresh Madhav Kelkar, incredibly interesting.

    Do you have a detailed uncatalog of articles sorted by topic?

    Dyaus is synonymous with Akasha (ether or space—the most subtle of the five elements from which the other four elements come).

    Dyaus or Dyaus Pritvi is one of the most mentioned beings or forces of nature mentioned in the oldest part of the Samhita Vedas. More so than Indra (who appears more in the less archaic Samhitas than in the most archaic Samhitas).

    Dyaus is incarnated as Bhishma in the Mahabharata.

    Dyaus links the Arya peoples together (including Serbs, Greeks, Germanics/Norse). I wonder who Dyaus is in the Sumerian and Egyptian pantheons? I have not yet figured out his relationship (if any) with them.

    Dyaus might also be part of the Chinese pantheon?

    The paper is mostly unreadable for me. I can’t pronounce the Chinese words or hear how the Chinese words are pronounced. Is there a way I can listen to the Chinese sounds?

    1. @Anan
      Most classic religions promote the principle of the first parents. These first progenitors usually have a responsibility for the birth of the second generation of gods, who essentially form the pantheons. This particular phenomenon is visible in the Hindu scriptures, with Dyauṣ and Pṛthivī, Father Sky, & Mother Earth.

      In brief, In Serbia:

      SVAROG = the first parent, symbolises light, the first rule of gods, has the power to create people, the almighty is never presented in a picture or a statue, he is almighty, seems to have two-poles, he creates the goddess NOC (night) and they have children
      NOC takes the second divine sceptre holder
      VARUNA – their son, third divine sceptre holder, he is in charge of the divine castle, fortress (In Serbian = Var) on the sky, (Greeks replicated him as Uranus=sky)
      VARUNA and Noc have a son KRAT – the god of time, the one who decides everything, he is a root for many words, i.e. demoKRATija=democracy (Greeks replicated him as Cronos but much less important).
      VARUNA and goddess Gaya (earth) have 6+6 sons, Titans, who are counterweight to the gods.
      DIV – son of KRAT, takes divine sceptre, his name is a source for the name Divonia (pantheon with all gods). Greeks replicated him simply as Dios (=god), Romans as DIVUS, etc, etc

      In Mesopotamia, the pair of Anu & Ki were the parents of the Annunakki whose most prominent god was Enil, the god of air.

      In Egypt, the roles of male and female were reversed – with Nut taking over the role the sky goddess and Geb as the God of the earth. Their children were the Gods of rain and wind.

    2. “Do you have a detailed uncatalog of articles sorted by topic?”

      Don’t have anything more than I posted. By the way I am mildly offended. You never responded to my email. Did you receive it?

      What promoted me to hunt for these sources were the posts from someone calling themselves Dan Neutron.


      The eastern angle has not been explored sufficiently by the OITwalas.

  13. A random collage of images after a google search of “the trypillian culture Indus valley”

    The Cucuteni–Trypillia culture

    “It extended from the Carpathian Mountains to the Dniester and Dnieper regions, centred on modern-day Moldova and covering substantial parts of western Ukraine and northeastern Romania, encompassing an area of 350,000 km2 (140,000 sq mi), with a diameter of 500 km (300 mi; roughly from Kyiv in the northeast to Brașov in the southwest).[”

    The similarities between the two are simply unbelievable.


    1. Well done MMK. This is part of Vinca civilisation and all these areas were populated by Serbs (Romanians, Moldavians, Ukrainians are Serbian offshoots). Keep researching. Tripolye in Serbian means – Three Fields. SA scholars like to read stupidities from Oxbridge/Harvard academics instead to use own eyes to have a look the facts.

      There are few links. In one of them you will see a map with ancient toponyms in Asia Minor, Syria, Iraq, etc. and you may make some conclusions. I have similar map for Iran and other regions.

      Vinča is first civilization in World is located in Serbia!,online_chips:vin%C4%8Da&usg=AI4_-kRXNqZe1m1atVTgXtWl4e6KIlbg3Q&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjj29O54KvgAhXPdCsKHeQxDpQQ4lYIKCgB&biw=1920&bih=969&dpr=1,online_chips:vin%C4%8Da,online_chips:lepenski+vir&usg=AI4_-kRQCL1iNNfXYl10o0CgpWHgJQTZjA&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjdjbTw4KvgAhXQfCsKHaa9Cu8Q4lYIKCgA&biw=1920&bih=969&dpr=1

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